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First New Nuclear Reactor In a Decade On Track

dusty writes "Plans to bring online the first new US nuclear plant since 1995 are on track, on time, and on budget according to the Tennessee Valley Authority. TVA had one major accident with a coal ash spill of late, and one minor one. The agency has plans and workers in place to have Unit 2 at Watts Bar, near Knoxville, online by 2012. Currently over 1,800 workers are doing construction at the plant. Watts Bar #1 is the only new nuclear reactor added to the grid in the last 25 years. From the article: 'TVA estimates the Watts Bar Unit 2 reactor every year will avoid the emission of about 60 million metric tons of greenhouse emissions linked with global warming. ... TVA began construction of Watts Bar in 1973, but work was suspended in 1988 when TVA's growth in power sales declined. After mothballing the unit for 19 years, TVA's board decided in 2007 to finish the reactor because it is projected to provide cheaper, no carbon-emitting power compared with the existing coal plants or purchased power it may help replace.'"

131 of 575 comments (clear)

  1. Finally by plague3106 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Common sense prevails. Nuclear is the best option we have right now for clean, cheap, reliable energy.

    1. Re:Finally by MrEricSir · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Or we could just, you know, turn off computers that we're not using.

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    2. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Or ones of no relevance. I call dibs on yours!

    3. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Common Sense would say use the nuclear reactor already operating: The Sun.

    4. Re:Finally by bunratty · · Score: 5, Informative

      Agreed. Exactly how nuclear reactors operate makes a big difference, though. If we do not use breeder reactors and build lots of new nuclear power plants, our nuclear fuel might last only a few decades and will generate lots of radioactive waste. Breeder reactors would be able to use most of that waste as fuel, allowing the fuel to last hundreds of years with a fraction of the waste generated.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    5. Re:Finally by all5n · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Can't we go back and re-refine the nuclear waste for further use later once we get rid of the stupid "no breeder reactors allowed to prevent proliferation" laws?

    6. Re:Finally by maxume · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes. The continued on-site storage of reactor waste and political failure of Yucca mountain is 'a good thing'.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    7. Re:Finally by TerranFury · · Score: 5, Informative

      Humans consume 16 TW on average.

      89 PW of solar energy reaches the earth's surface.

      That's over 5,000x the power we need.

      (source).

      I support nuclear too, but GP is no idiot.

    8. Re:Finally by spidercoz · · Score: 3, Informative

      Who's calling whom an idiot, idiot?

      Solar output in Watts: 3.86x10^26
      Solar energy that reaches Earth: 1.74x10^17 W
      Energy that reaches ground: 8.9x10^16 W

      Energy consumption of the planet: 1.6x10^13 W

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, re Voltaire
    9. Re:Finally by Ares · · Score: 4, Informative

      Also, YFA indicates "Data from the Institute for Energy and Environmental Research and USEC, a uranium enrichment company, indicate that enriching the amount of uranium needed to fuel 1,000-megawatt reactor for a year using the most efficient method can require 5,500 megawatt hours of gas- and coal-fired electricity (a 10-megawatt power plant running for 550 hours).*"

      in other words, for the math-challenged grandparent post, the 1,000 MW reactor would have to run at full load for 5.5 hours for every year worth of enriched fuel it consumes. The remaining 8,754.5 hours of the year can be used to do other things. like power homes and businesses.

    10. Re:Finally by notarockstar1979 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Breeder reactors would be able to use most of that waste as fuel, allowing the fuel to last hundreds of years with a fraction of the waste generated.

      And at a lesser cost in the end, partially because they wouldn't have to mine as much new fuel and partially because they wouldn't have to find places to bury the spent fuel.

    11. Re:Finally by ducomputergeek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And the cost of energy and materials to produce the solar cells needed to capture said solar energy?

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    12. Re:Finally by thule · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No thanks to Greenpeace et al that caused nuclear to be financially and politically less viable than coal. Think of what nuclear costs could be if over the top regulations didn't exist. If we can adopt sane regulations to nuclear reactors we would be much less dependent on coal.

      Environmental groups have caused the greatest amount of greenhouse gases than any other group. Okay, okay, I made that stat up.

      Vote Chuck DeVore (A pro nuclear power guy running for Senate in California).

    13. Re:Finally by uvdiv_blog · · Score: 5, Informative

      Clean, as in: do you know how much greenhouse gases are emitted when getting uranium/plutonium out of the ground and processed to be able to use it in a nuclear reactor?

      I do. See for example the IPCC 4th assessment report, working group 3, chapter 4 "Energy Supply". In particular 4.3.2 pp. 269-270 "Nuclear Power", and also the summary graph Figure 4.19 on page 283, which compares the lifecycle CO2 emissions per unit energy of different primary sources.

      In short, considering the entire energy cycle, nuclear power has comparable CO2 emissions to wind, hydro, and solar power, and actually appears rather cleaner than the latter two.

      This isn't surprising at all, when you consider the extreme energy density of nuclear fission. Annual uranium mining is on the scale of merely tens of thousands of tons / year, contrasted for instance with coal which is billions of tons - a tiny fraction. The scale is ridiculously small, and correspondingly so are the environmental impacts.

      This all comes with a non-obvious disclaimer, that these lifecycle CO2 emissions are only valid in the present context, that most electricity and all transportation are still fossil-fuel powered. Nuclear only emits CO2 at all because there is not enough of it yet, and so the steel mills are powered by coal, and the transport trucks by oil. When we transition to clean energy and electric vehicles or clean synfuels, NONE of the clean energy sources will have ANY lifecycle CO2 emissions at all, and the debate will be moot. (Well, there are two exceptions - inputs of concrete, whose manufacture necessarily emits CO2, in the reduction of CaCO3 -> CaO + CO2, and with hydropower (see the same IPCC chapter, 4.3.3.1, p. 273-4), which emits the GHG methane from anaerobic decomposition of plant matter that is flooded when reservoirs are filled.))

      Oh one more thing - plutonium isn't extracted from the ground, it is synthetic, created by nuclear transmutation. One neutron capture U-238 + n -> U-239, followed by two spontaneous beta-decays (neutron turns to proton, emits electron and antineutrino), U-239 -> Np-239 -> Pu-239.

    14. Re:Finally by russotto · · Score: 2, Informative

      The mining and processing argument against nuclear power doesn't make sense. Greenhouse gases emitted during mining and processing are roughly proportional to energy spent in mining in processing (assuming, worst case, that all of it is from fossil fuels). But for nuclear power to be of any practical use, the amount of energy you get out of a unit of fuel must be orders of magnitude greater than the energy taken to mine and process it. This, fortunately, turns out to be the case. Thus, nuclear power produces orders of magnitude less greenhouse gasses than fossil fuels, even considering emissions during mining and processing.

    15. Re:Finally by pizzach · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well it's been a few decades since the last "horrible" nuclear accident. The public may be getting ready to face the music and try it again. Looking at history, it looks like the Soviet Union had the worst luck with Nuclear power and accidents. [reference]. It seem like every time there has been a problem it has set back nuclear development by 10 years.

      --
      Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
    16. Re:Finally by joocemann · · Score: 4, Informative

      And the cost of energy and materials to produce the solar cells needed to capture said solar energy?

      ... is covered in usually 7 to 10 years of the average 28 years the cell will reliably produce energy. But what is also covered in that 7 to 10 years is the energy it would require to recycle that cell into a new working cell. Now you know; spread the word.

      Please don't post/echo false memes unless you actually want to hear the truth.

    17. Re:Finally by joocemann · · Score: 5, Informative

      How much do you actually know about what you're talking about? I'm not asking you rhetorically (though that would be fun to poke at you with), but actually. Tell me what you know before I pay any credence to your b.s.

      I can, however, rapidly destroy your b.s. with the fact that the average solar cell produces enough energy to pay for itself AND recycle itself into another working cell in 7 - 10 years. And the average lifespan being 28 years before requiring recycle. Do the math, if you can. 28-10 = 18 years of relatively free energy.

      I'm happy to have informed you. Spread the word instead of the false memes you're trying to echo.

    18. Re:Finally by torkus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Are there GW level reactor designs based on materials available in sufficient quantity?

      A 2MW reactor using air cooling or a 800MW design that requires 1000 tons of ... meter-long nano-tubes (etc.) isn't going to help replace that 1GW coal plant any time soon.

      The general problem is still thermal sinks. A nuclear plant has a thermal efficiency somewhere around 33% so twice as much energy has to go somewhere other than the power substation. Let's take a moderately small plant with an output of 500MW ... which implies 1GW (thermal) has to be dissipated. Roughly you're looking at something like 12 million cubic meters per hour of airflow...assuming a 250C change in air inlet to output temp.

      Not meant to flame...i'm curious how the math makes large scale (non-evaporative) air-cooled thermal plants possible.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    19. Re:Finally by ender8282 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That article isn't even consistent. Elsewhere It says that the total solar energy reaching earth is 3.8 YJ/year. The earth uses 500 Exa J /year. That means that the entire surface of the earth only produces about 1900x the power we need. If you factor out the oceans as 2/3 the earth's surface you are down to 633x our current power needs. (That doesn't even take into account that the south pole is a pretty lousy place to get solar energy because the sun's rays are never normal to it). Lets also assume that you don't want to kill forests. 30% of the earth's land is covered by forest [www.earth-policy.org/indicators/Forest/2006.htm]. That takes up down to 422x total energy needs. Take out for farmland it there will be less. And the worst part is that forestland and farmland are highly concentrated around places that have good sunlight. You don't see many trees in Antarctica. We probably could get enough energy but it isn't quite as large is you suggest.

    20. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What would help a lot is to get the NRC and various companies that produce reactor and genrating equipment together and establish a national standardized reactor design. You know, that approach that seems to have worked for France of all places. Once that's done, companies can compete on bids for parts and construction, but regardless of when and where it's built the primary circuit and controls/instruments will always be built exactly the same and to the same spec and same layout. No deviations. The secondary circuit pipe runs should essentially the same too. Perhaps the only allowable major design differences will be whether you're using evaporative cooling or using a nearby large body of water as the heat sink for the condensing side.

      Get this done, and doing construction approvals and safety inspections could be streamlined. No more dicking around trying to figure out how each separate facility does stuff, because they will be (or should be) exactly 100% the same. Inspectors would be more likely to know exactly what to look for. The training for maintenance and operation also would be less involved because once taught the operation and schematic for one plant, a technician would know them all.

    21. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      16 TW on average now. In the future?

      Here's my argument against solar as a long term base energy source: we have access to effectively unlimited energy on this planet, if we can just learn to harness it via fusion or some other to-be-discovered technology. What we don't have is unlimited access to land. Consider what having 5,000x times the currently available energy would mean: we could start doing things like ultra-high density vertical farming, freeing land currently put to agriculture. We could desalinate all the fresh water the world would ever need, and electrolyze enough hydrogen to power any fleet of hydrogen vehicles Detroit wants to dream up. We could easily synthesize polymers, purify metals, even transmute rare elements. All without land intensive practices like industrial farming and strip mining we survive on today. We can do all those things now, but because energy is an expensive, constrained resource, none of it is practical.

      I don't believe terrestrial solar can change that significantly. Fission power can't either, but it does lead us closer to the technologies that can.

    22. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and what about when the sun isn't shining. Are we going to transmit power from china to here? Battery technology isn't where it needs to be yet. Wind doesn't always blow. The reality is that we need ALL these sources of energy. Anyone who says solar/wind/nuclear/wave/clean coal is all we need is just beating their own drum.

    23. Re:Finally by similar_name · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The amount of power delivered to the Earth from the sun is more than sufficient. The problem is, and ever has been, efficient conversion of that energy into a useful form.

      What I find interesting is that oil and coal both got their stored energy from the Sun. Even uranium was made from the energy of a star. Wind energy is from the Sun.

      Tidal wave energy is about the only thing I can think of that doesn't come from the Sun. Although I suppose we could take it a step further and say the Sun gets it's energy from gravity. Ultimately all energy it would seem comes from gravity. Just some random thoughts.

    24. Re:Finally by sirkha · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'll agree that Greenpeace is not an idiotic organization, but thats because they are very good at capitalizing on people's fears and the general ignorance of the world. Using two simple figures as above illustrates this point, as it makes many unreasonable assumptions, and doesn't emphasize the proper conclusion.

      Assuming that the above figures are correct and that half the solar panels will always be in the dark, we find the amount of surface area required to power mankind's average consumption. Searching google for:
      ((radius+of+earth)^2)*4*pi%2F2500+in+km^2

      gives us a area of 204 481 km^2.

      Then, for the sake of comparison, we grab a list of countries by total area, and compare.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_outlying_territories_by_total_area

      It turns out that just to meet current consumption would require covering an area the size of Romania with solar cells. Add on the fact that no solar cell is more than 50% efficient (i am rounding up from 41.1% http://dvice.com/archives/2009/01/germans_break_t.php ) and we end up covering at least all of Japan.

      So while nuclear power may not be sustainable, and is therefore impractical in the longrun, solar power is already impractical.

    25. Re:Finally by Xzisted · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, if solar panels were 100% efficient then we would only have to cover 1.8% of the land on our planet for them to cover all our needs.

      Wait. The earth rotates with about 38% of the surface optimally bathed in sunlight at any given time. Doing the math on that means that we have to cover somewhere in the neighborhood of 4.2% of the land on the planet in 100% efficient panels to cover our needs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

      Oh wait, solar panels aren't 100% efficient. As a matter of fact, they aren't even nearly 20% efficient in most cases. Eh...back to the drawing board.

      I love the idea of cleaner energy as much as everyone else, however there are a few things that many people don't realize.

      1. Nuclear power is a known entity with known problems however it provides the most energy at the least cost in regards to both money and pollution.
      2. Covering signifigant portions of any land mass in solar panels (solar farms) leads to serious erosion problems and other issues that are not widely publicized as a large problem. It is a large problem, so much so that some solar farms are only producing at about 60% capacity due to equipment failures caused by panel foundations shifting and wind issues. Read the article in Wired.
      3. Wind farms can not adequately provide enough power to the grid to support everyone. In severely windy areas it can cause serious power spikes that our current power grid cannot handle potentially causing large scale outages. It is also worth noting that if you have an unusually non-windy month, your refrigerator might not turn on some nights. That sucks.
      4. Technology is not there yet with geothermal, waveform hydroelectric or any other technology you hear routinely mentioned as a solution to all our energy problems. They are at least 20-30 years off before they start providing any useful power and that is at the earliest.

      We get it. We need cleaner energy. Now, listen to those of us who agree with you but are more well informed: Nuclear is your first best option for the next three decades. Do you really feel like complaining about how bad coal and oil are for another 30 years?

      --X

      --

      Honesty may be the best policy, but apparently by elimination, dishonesty is the second best policy.
    26. Re:Finally by Xzisted · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ok. Quick list before I head home from my engineering job.

      Solar cell (photovoltaic) efficiencies.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell

      Power grid issues with Wind and Solar.
      http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/business/10grid.html?_r=4&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
      http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/27/business/27grid.html

      A host of nonpartisan (I'm independant BTW) issues can be found in the wikipedia articles for Geothermal and Tidal (waveform hydroelectric) power. Ironically enough, they can generate power, but are equally horrible for the environment in other ways. Not to mention they are extremely cost prohibitive in most circumstances.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_sulfide

      Worldwide we are producing about 10GW of power using geothermal today. Overall, thats not alot. And geothermal has many construction and engineering hurdles to overcome that are different with EACH installation which increases costs and can reduce overall output. Technology can solve this problem, yet again, its not there yet. Not reliably anyways.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Barrage
      http://www.reuk.co.uk/Severn-Barrage-Tidal-Power.htm
      Even if they start the Severn Barrage right this second, it would not be fully operational and completed until 2020 at the earliest. The construction costs are nearly $40 billion (24bn. pounds), and the total power output would be around 8.6GW under ideal circumstances. Output is dependant on variable scenarious such as weather (which can also cause damage) and current. Expected average output is about 2GW. Current nuclear technology can generate upwards of 1.4-1.5GW of power per reactor with multiple reactors built at each plant.
      http://www.reuk.co.uk/Severn-Barrage-Tidal-Power.htm

      So, about that extensive data you have seen. Want to provide some links that have hard numbers and are based in facts or do you want to sit over there and provide no helpful commentary yourself other than to say I'm wrong and you're right?

      --

      Honesty may be the best policy, but apparently by elimination, dishonesty is the second best policy.
    27. Re:Finally by jhol13 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We do not need russians in the equation.

      Every nuclear facility has probability of catastrophic accident. It is a positive number, usually written as "once every XXX years". Now just multiply that number with needed number of nuclear reactors for the whole world and you'll get a number which is IMHO far too small (bad accident every few tens of years).

      I am a proponent of nuclear energy, but not a naive one, we *really* do need wind, solar, conservation ...

    28. Re:Finally by TerranFury · · Score: 3, Interesting

      and what about when the sun isn't shining.

      I kind of like concentrated solar-thermal power (CSP) more than photovoltaics. And with CSP, you can basically store heat from the sun in the form of, e.g. liquid salt, and use that to run your generators at night.

    29. Re:Finally by sjs132 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I blew away my mods just to reply to YOU.

      WHERE in your calculations do you account for cost of installation?

      Where is your cost of batteries for non-sunny days?

      Where is your ongoing maintenance costs? (Someone has to climb up and clean the panels occasionally!)

      What if you live in a valley?

      Solar may be nice in certain areas, but it is not as efficient as you portray it to be. You state 18 years of free energy over a 30 year life span... Where are your facts to back this up? I want to see some REAL figures! Oh, and don't even bother to include government incentives! That's not fair math, that's fuzzy math!

      This does not have to be a "No Nukes", solar and wind only argument, but if you are presenting it like that, then bring the facts to the table. ALL energy sources are needed, not one size fits all.

      --
      --- Relax, that mass muderer is just trying to reduce our carbon footprint, one fetus at a time...
    30. Re:Finally by sFurbo · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, the sun gets its energy from fusion, so that would be the strong nuclear force.

    31. Re:Finally by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Everyone still seems to forget; nuclear is *not* cheap. Its is very expensive. Depending on how you slice the numbers (decommission and waste management costs), it is not clear that nuclear is cheaper/better than solar or wind. (which also means it is not clear that solar/wind is better/cheaper than nuclear....)

      I am in favour of both options.

      But i really would like to see the next generation of nuclear plants rather than these old designs staying the status quo....

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    32. Re:Finally by Yvanhoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      clean, cheap, reliable

      Choose two.
      It is a good transitional energy. Let's use it while we focus on making renewable energy economically viable.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    33. Re:Finally by MrKaos · · Score: 4, Informative

      I do. See for example the IPCC 4th assessment report, working group 3, chapter 4 "Energy Supply". In particular 4.3.2 pp. 269-270 "Nuclear Power", and also the summary graph Figure 4.19 on page 283, which compares the lifecycle CO2 emissions per unit energy of different primary sources.

      The conclusions reached in that chapter are based on Vattenfall and they build nuclear power plants so it's not surprising the results favor nuclear power. Whilst they are the best run nuclear reactors in the world and an example of what a *baseline* nuclear program should look like, U.S reactors fall dreadfully short.

      The work of Vattenfall *and* Storm van Leeuwen and Smith, upon which that chapter cites as references, both use the same method to calculate energy consumption funded by the National Science Foundation and the Department of Energy and are used in 80 odd industry sectors. The exceptionally detailed work of Dr Phillip Smith, Nuclear Physicist and Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen (MSc) (Stormsmith.nl), who both work in the nuclear industry and have specialisation on energy system analysis, is mostly ignored in the IPCC report. They have no vested interest in the outcome whilst Vattenfall does.

      Their criticisms of Vattenfall include "Process analysis leads to a large underestimation of the total construction energy requirements when labor and supporting activities of the construction are not included".

      One thing that is not immediately obvious is that the primary greenhouse gas from the Nuclear industry is not Carbon Dioxide but Chlorinated Fluro-Carbons (CFC114) a greenhouse gas 20,000 times more potent than C02. Whilst it's equivalent effect is slightly over 8 megatons of C02 more potent is the destruction this compound causes to the ozone layer and it's eventual effect on Phytoplankton which creates more breathable oxygen than the Amazon.

      If that wasn't serious enough, long term it's not radiation but radioactive isotopes that will eventually make it into the food chain via bioaccumulation. As the hidden cost of carbon is imposed on our generation in the form of a Carbon tax, so we pass on a cost to future generation forced to have to deal with radioactive isotopes and other environmental externalities. Wouldn't it be better to develop a longer term strategy wrt Nuclear power than we currently have that actually addresses the very real problems the industry has?

      This isn't surprising at all, when you consider the extreme energy density of nuclear fission.

      Which is only relevant if you use the energy density of the enriched isotope and currently PWR use 0.3% of the available energy density. This brings us back to Storm van Leeuwen and Smith whose analysis was to asses the net energy return of the Nuclear industry. For example, for the expected 300TWh's output of a new AP-1000 (low side Vattenfall, high side Storm/Smith) energetic estimates for construction of a nuclear power plant is somewhere between 11TWh and 35TWh, energy cost for demolition around 55TWh to 70TWh, that's around a third before you start. Yet you still have to factor dismantling and clean up of the core alone 5.6TWh's - 16TWh's. They talk in Peta-joules but I've done the conversions to put it in a frame of reference that will be easier to understand.

      Using a conservative energy expenditure of 1528Kwh per ton of rock (containing Uranium) you have to process 500 tons of rock, that's 763500Kwh's, to produce one kilo of Uranium. Assuming an extremely optimistic extraction efficiency approaching %50 AND assuming you have a high grade ore that's roughly 763Gwh's per ton and you need 160tons for your first core. Even before enri

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    34. Re:Finally by TeknoHog · · Score: 2, Interesting

      True, but fusion in the sun is made possible by gravitational containment :)

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    35. Re:Finally by GordonCopestake · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Where do you think all that coal and oil came from? We ARE using solar power, just OLD solar power. Hopefully by the time the old solar power runs out we'll know how to use new solar power.

    36. Re:Finally by MightyDrunken · · Score: 3, Informative
      Well the grandparent post is talking about EROEI, while the article you present gives the ROI. A source for EROEI for you. Sounds a bit on the optimistic side to me but it's something.

      Finally the RICS study gives figures at the other end of the extreme. I can't find how they calculated the figures but they seem well off. I do know that they did not take into account raising fuel prices, the money you can get from returning power to the grid and government subsides.

      A quote from the independent article for a proponent of the other side is, "He (Jeremy Leggett, executive chairman of Solar Century) estimated the current payback of power-generating PV panels was 13 years."
      I hate ironing too, get no iron clothes they are great!

    37. Re:Finally by plague3106 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except that solar panels now are very inefficent compared to a nuclear plant, and require a HUGE amount of space compared to a nuclear plant. Whats with this irrational fear of nuclear power?

    38. Re:Finally by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Funny

      Solar thermal is much more efficient and has the advantage of being able to use heat sequestering with molten salt or oil...

      Plus everyone can deep fry their turkeys for free.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    39. Re:Finally by plague3106 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Oh, you disagree with the report, so its BS. I get it. I haven't seen any reports stating anything else.

      What I've seen is actual cost charged per KWH when buying from nuclear compared to buy from a wind farm. Thats not estimates, thats actual cost right now today. Why do you suddenly think wind will become cheaper in the long run than it is now?

      I've at least provide links; you've provided nothing except "oh, its all BS."

      Its interesting that people don't want to hear the truth, and go with the overrated mod.

    40. Re:Finally by plague3106 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which we haven't had a problem dealing with since we started building the plants. And if we we get with the program, newer style reactors bring the halflife for the waste down to 10 years... but we can't get there if people are actively trying to get the existing plants shut down.

  2. on track, on time, and on budget... by clone53421 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Inconceivable!

    --
    Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    1. Re:on track, on time, and on budget... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1.5 years into a 5-year project, the project is on-time and under-budget?

      Quite conceivable, especially since the main contractors (Bechtel, Siemens, Westinghouse) are not operating on cost-plus contracts. But this early into a project, it is a bit premature to assume that it'll continue to be under-budget and on-time. But who knows, maybe it will be. The reputation of the contractors (especially Bechtel, as primary contractor for most of the work) depends on it. This is especially important given that the market for construction of nuclear facilities in the US has the potential to, um, explode over the next decade or two.

      Keep in mind that the biggest boondoggle of over-budget and past-due construction (the Big Dig in Boston) was under budget and on time for the first several years of construction.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    2. Re:on track, on time, and on budget... by michrech · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I always thought it was : "On Track, On Time, and On Budget -- Pick two"?

      --
      bork bork bork!
  3. I enjoy nuclear power by Gizzmonic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nuclear power is the only true green power. Environmentalist wackos want us to turn off electricity and live in paper hats, but you just can't turn off civilization, it's too late. We're addicted to electricity and all the joys it brings-refrigeration being tops on the list, of course! So we're going to have to do something else to fight global warming. Nuclear power is that "something else." It's the only practical solution. There ain't no such thing as clean coal, and Americans will not stop their "unsustainable" lifestyle...and why should they, when they can just nuke it up and enjoy as much refrigerated food as before. The refrigerator is the true ambassador of civilization.

    --
    (-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
    1. Re:I enjoy nuclear power by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And of course now that we have such a "green"-friendly president we are now going to build a few new nuclear reactors!

      [Yes, that was sarcasm]. It is unfortunate that our current president and Congressional leadership are so anti-nuclear. You'd think they all still believe the lies and exaggerations of 1960s and 1970s environmentalists. We need to build many more nuclear plants, recycle spent nuclear fuel, and figure out and build better electric cars. That should help out our economy and environment.

    2. Re:I enjoy nuclear power by ivan256 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't be silly. Our current president is much smarter than that.

      He understands that opposing nuclear technology is much more valuable to him politically than using the technology to reduce our carbon emissions in a significant fashion. And maintaining power is more important than the environment.

    3. Re:I enjoy nuclear power by amliebsch · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think the security threats are exaggerated. Highly radioactive materials are mostly dangerous to whomever possesses them, and even the highest-level reactor fuel or plutonium products cannot be turned into bomb fuel without multi-billion dollar enrichment facilities. The biggest threat is probably low-level radiation leaking into ground water supplies, but if our society reaches the point where people don't care or don't know about that hazard, we probably aren't living long enough for that to be a big concern anyways.

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    4. Re:I enjoy nuclear power by QuantumRiff · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Couldn't agree more.. The best way to defend against a "dirty bomb" is to start refining the low level waste for recycling. I wish the terrorists luck assembling dirty bombs made of Plutonium. In reality, a very large portion of our current nuclear fuel comes from "recycled' warheads from Russia. I can't help but smile at the fact that the cold war is powering my AC on a hot day ;).

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    5. Re:I enjoy nuclear power by Garrett+Fox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      He has no legal authority under the Constitution to dictate what energy the country will use in the first place. It'd be nice if he and Congress would get out of the way, eliminate energy taxes and subsidies, and let the price determine what solution prevails. Or if he really believes we need federal CO2 taxes, push for a Constitutional amendment to grant government the power to impose them.

      --
      Revive the Constitution.
    6. Re:I enjoy nuclear power by ksheff · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What about securing the coal ash piles? A scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory has determined that we release more radioactive material into the environment by burning coal than we actual use in our nuclear plants. To top it off, it is theoretically possible, although time and labor consuming, to extract those radioactive materials from those ash piles and build a nuclear device.

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    7. Re:I enjoy nuclear power by Randle_Revar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >Environmentalist wackos want us to turn off electricity and live in paper hats,
      Did you mean "huts"? Although living in a giant paper hat might be fun, at least until it rained.

      Anyway, who are these nuts? Where are they? I have read about them, but I have not seen
      any evidence that these creatures still exist in the wild. I am convinced they went extinct
      in the 60s or 70s. Certainly I have not found any in the environmentalist communities I
      frequent.

    8. Re:I enjoy nuclear power by amRadioHed · · Score: 2, Informative

      Nuclear glows blue, actually. /pedant

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    9. Re:I enjoy nuclear power by Nadaka · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe that is because most people who claim to be environmentalists don't give a damn about the environment or the advancement of their own species.

    10. Re:I enjoy nuclear power by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Informative

      Dominion Virginia Power will be building one soon (2010), and expect to be online around 2015. They already have their federal ok for the additional reactor at that site. Note that it's a Boiling Water Reactor, not a PWR, so maybe there's no huge pressure vessel required.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  4. Less radioactive waste, too by AJWM · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A nuclear plant also produces less radioactive waste than does a corresponding coal plant. Of course since the latter doesn't fall under the authority of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the radioactive substances in coal ash (like thorium) just get dispersed into the environment along with the stuff that stays toxic forever like arsenic and mercury.

    --
    -- Alastair
    1. Re:Less radioactive waste, too by QuantumRiff · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've often wondered what would happen if they changed that.. A recent Newsweek article was talking about how at the very end of the Clinton Administration, they ruled Fly Ash a hazardous waste, but it was via Executive order (just like we complained that bush did the last few weeks of office) and was undone by the next administration. I wonder what would have happened if that designation was passed "properly" and allowed to stand the last 9 years or so.

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    2. Re:Less radioactive waste, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Radioactive elements in coal and fly ash should not be sources of alarm. The vast majority of coal and the majority of fly ash are not significantly enriched in radioactive elements, or in associated radioactivity, compared to common soils or rocks.

      Source

      Although coal releases the joyous toxins of arsenic, mercury, and selenium, the radioactive components of coal are minor enough to be ignored.

    3. Re:Less radioactive waste, too by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not true. He is misrepresenting the actual (and true) claim, which is that that during normal operations, coal plants release more radioactivity into the environment than a nuclear plant. The nuclear plant creates many orders of magnitude more radioactive waste than a coal plant; however, almost all of it is normally kept contained, whereas the coal waste is released into the air.

      Of course, people who have concerns about the radiation involved with nuclear power aren't worried about radiation released during normal operations, so the claim is rather pointless. They're worried about accidents, sabotage, leakage, and WMD proliferation, which are all ways that the containment could fail.

    4. Re:Less radioactive waste, too by MobyDisk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The article doesn't really provide enough information to support the conclusion. All

      Summary: Radioactive elements in coal and fly ash should not be sources of alarm. The vast majority of coal and the majority of fly ash are not significantly enriched in radioactive elements, or in associated radioactivity, compared to common soils or rocks.

      Right, but that doesn't help because it discounts the quantity of coal, and the fact that it is being burned and released into the atmosphere. It didn't answer at all the amount of radiation released in total, only the density of the radiation. The question is: Does a coal plant release more or less radiation than a nuclear plant with equivalent output?

      About Coal Creek Station: In 1993, the Nation consumed more than 2 million tons of coal per day.

      And the article you linked to says:

      concentrations of uranium fall in the range from slightly below 1 to 4 parts per million (ppm)

      But don't know what 2 million tons x 1 part per million means.... soo... Aha!

      Coal ash is more radioactive than nuclear waste

      The editor clarifies, at the end of the article:

      *Editor's Note (posted 12/30/08): In response to some concerns raised by readers, a change has been made to this story. The sentence marked with an asterisk was changed from "In fact, fly ashâ"a by-product from burning coal for powerâ"and other coal waste contains up to 100 times more radiation than nuclear waste" to "In fact, the fly ash emitted by a power plantâ"a by-product from burning coal for electricityâ"carries into the surrounding environment 100 times more radiation than a nuclear power plant producing the same amount of energy." Our source for this statistic is Dana Christensen, an associate lab director for energy and engineering at Oak Ridge National Laboratory as well as 1978 paper in Science authored by J.P. McBride and colleagues, also of ORNL.

      As a general clarification, ounce for ounce, coal ash released from a power plant delivers more radiation than nuclear waste shielded via water or dry cask storage.

    5. Re:Less radioactive waste, too by swillden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The USGS says that this claim is not true and that "The vast majority of coal and the majority of fly ash are not significantly enriched in radioactive elements, or in associated radioactivity, compared to common soils or rocks."

      That doesn't necessarily mean it's not true. Even if there are only small amounts of radioactive material (enough to make it not "significantly enriched"), it could still be the case that when multiplied by the amount of ash released, the result is a larger amount than is produced by a nuclear reactor of the same size.

      I don't know if it is, but it's possible. I'd like to see numbers.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    6. Re:Less radioactive waste, too by Nadaka · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is patently not true. There is a long term solution to nuclear waste. toss it in a feeder/breeder reactor and use it to make more electricity.

      By the time you are done with it you have two kinds of waste products...
      Those with a half life so small that storing it for a few years will eliminate its radiation hazard.
      Those with a half life so long that they are no more a radiation hazard than natural granite.

    7. Re:Less radioactive waste, too by Your.Master · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's not a thought experiment, that's an assertion.

    8. Re:Less radioactive waste, too by Maxwell'sSilverLART · · Score: 2, Informative

      Let's also remember that uranium is a heavy metal, like lead. By burning coal, we're spewing heavy metal dust into the atmosphere. Actually, more likely, we're spewing dust containing heavy metal salts and oxides, which is far more harmful to the body than elemental heavy metals (better solubility means it can move throughout the body and accumulate in bad places, like bones). And uranium is chemically harmful no matter what isotope it is, even if it's not radiologically dangerous.

      Meanwhile, the dangerous stuff in a reactor is sitting nicely in a little pile inside a big steel pressure vessel.

      --
      Moderate drunk! It's more fun that way!
    9. Re:Less radioactive waste, too by lennier · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "As a general clarification, ounce for ounce, coal ash released from a power plant delivers more radiation than nuclear waste shielded via water or dry cask storage."

      That's a fairly big qualification, though, isn't it? Raw coal ash vs *shielded* nuclear waste?

      I don't think many environmental protestors are claiming that nuclear waste, if shielded, emits radiation. The worries are about whether the shielding actually survives and doesn't break down over years, leach into groundwater, etc.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  5. Re:Just Takes One by DrMrLordX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1). Inhabitable? Don't you mean uninhabitable?

    2). It doesn't "just take one". We've suffered more than one nuclear reactor failure in this country without experiencing mass-contamination events along the lines of Chernobyl. Three Mile Island wasn't the only one.

  6. Re:Just Takes One by AJWM · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I hate to feed the troll, but:

    one nuclear accident could render a majority of the US inhabitable. Presumably you meant "uninhabitable", but you'd still be wrong.

    In the 1940s-1950s, the US detonated numerous nuclear weapons above ground in Nevada and New Mexico, releasing a hell of a lot more radioactive material than Chernobyl -- and Chernobyl-type disasters cannot happen with US power reactors (totally different reactor design). This hardly rendered even a significant fraction, let alone "a majority" of the US uninhabitable.

    --
    -- Alastair
  7. Re:Just Takes One by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    A stranger was seated next to a little girl on the airplane when the
    stranger turned to her and said, 'Let's talk. I've heard that flights go
    quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.'

    The little girl, who had just opened her book, closed it slowly and said
    to the stranger, 'What would you like to talk about?'
    'Oh, I don't know,' said the stranger. 'How about nuclear power?' and he
    smiles.
    'OK, ' she said. 'That could be an interesting topic.

    But let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat
    the same stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty,
    and a horse produces clumps of dried grass. Why do you suppose that is?'
    The stranger, visibly surprised by the little girl's intelligence, thinks
    about it and says, 'Hmmm, I have no idea.'
    To which the little girl replies, 'Do you really feel qualified to
    discuss nuclear power when you don't know shit?

  8. Re:Just Takes One by LWATCDR · · Score: 5, Informative

    1. Reactors don't explode.
    2. A Chernobyl style accident is impossible with a light water reactor.
    3. Even with a Chernobyl style reactor and even if they had the exact same accident the problem would have been manageable if they had a freaking containment building.
    4. Reactors all go critical. What you don't want is for them to go super critical.
    5. No modern reactor can go super critical the fuel they use isn't enriched enough to go super critical and they all need a moderator like water to work.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  9. Re:Just Takes One by clarkkent09 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I guess nobody in power to stop these things never takes into account that one nuclear accident could render a majority of the US inhabitable.

    I think the keyword here is could. I can imagine many disasters that could cause enormous damage too, but the question is how likely they are to happen. What is more likely, a meteor strike, or an accident in a nuclear power station of such a magnitude as to render US uninhabitable? I don't know, but lets say they are comparable. If so, we should be willing to spend as much money on protection against meteors as we are on not using nuclear power, including, arguably, the cost of our military operations in the middle east, the increased danger of terrorism (potentially nuclear too) etc. Either way it's a cost/benefit analysis and you have to look at both sides of the equation.

    --
    Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
  10. Intense danger by StreetStealth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Your car has four wheels and an internal combustion engine, traits shared by the 1907 Holsman Model 3. Have you stopped to consider the intense danger this poses to you?

    But wait: The Holsman was built in a time before ABS, crumple zones, air bags, or even seatbelts. One might presume your 2003 Nissan Altima to be a little safer.

    Chernobyl was a nuclear plant built with all the safety precautions of early automobiles. Comparing it with modern TVA-built plants is just as valid as the above Slashdot Car Analogy.

    --
    Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
    1. Re:Intense danger by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Chernobyl was not just old:
      1) It was built with a dual purpose: Power generation AND weapons materials production - this led to design safety compromises
      2) It DID have a lot of safety precautions, but the operators disabled them to run an experiment. Based on your car analogy, this would involve ripping out the ABS controller, removing the shock absorbers, removing the swaybar, slashing the brake lines, then going for a ride.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  11. Re:Just Takes One by SUB7IME · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Plus, since the feds own the vast majority of Nevada (>85%), it was already illegal to inhabit those areas, anyways. I'm not bitter; I'm just Nevadan.

  12. Re:Just Takes One by Avin22 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the US have naval submarines that are powered by nuclear reactors. And aren't those subs often docked near populated ports, San Diego for example. Thus, we have already accepted the risk of having nuclear power in populated areas, so it seems odd to be afraid of adding a few civilian nuclear reactors that are not in highly populated areas.

  13. Re:Just Takes One by kannibal_klown · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the US have naval submarines that are powered by nuclear reactors. And aren't those subs often docked near populated ports, San Diego for example. Thus, we have already accepted the risk of having nuclear power in populated areas, so it seems odd to be afraid of adding a few civilian nuclear reactors that are not in highly populated areas.

    Agreed. It's mostly irrational fear.

    I could see where one would trust a reactor that was built FOR the military and operated BY highly trained military personnel. Too many civilian projects and products get hit by lowest-bidder disasters.

  14. Re:Just Takes One by CannonballHead · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I recently read about Chernobyl on wikipedia. That entire episode was apparently ... well, incredibly stupid and mismanaged. It was more of a "Titanic" incident than anything else I can think of in history. (The "nothing will go wrong" mentality that leads to some really, really stupid actions)

  15. Re:Just Takes One by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 5, Informative

    1) Mostly true. They can have a steam explosion, which is basically the first thing that happened at Chernobyl. That said, they can't result in a nuclear explosion.

    2) Exactly. To be specific, the Chernobyl (RBMK-1000) reactor design used a graphite moderator in order to make it more suitable for production of weapons materials. Graphite moderators are bad for a variety of reasons, both in regards to reactor stability, and the fact that it's extremely flammable (which is where most of the atmospheric contamination from Chernobyl came from - burning graphite.) No US civilian power reactor serves such a dual purpose.

    3-5) Don't really need to say more

    Additonally:
    A typical coal plant releases more radioactive material into the air in a day due to traces of uranium in the coal than TMI released in its lifetime

    Also, in addition to the fundamental deficiencies of the the RBMK-1000 design, they were running an experiment with the reactor that could only be described as "fucking dangerous". Well not only, "fucking stupid" works too. By the time the incident occurred, the reactor operators had overridden most of the reactor's safety features - the reactor SHOULD have SCRAMed long before the incident occurred but the operators kept it going to run an experiment because they feared retribution from their superiors. (The experiment failed the first time, and rather than continue shutdown they tried to restart the reactor to try again.)

    The biggest problem currently is waste. Sadly, there are reactor designs that are both far more efficient in fuel use (hence produce far less waste per kWh) AND also produce far shorter-lived waste (plus can use traditional LWR waste as fuel), but were killed because politicians translated "breeder" into "proliferation risk" even though traditional LWRs were more of a proliferation risk than the IFR was. Also, a past president (Carter?) banned all nuclear fuels reprocessing in the U.S. with an executive order. Back then, reprocessing = PUREX and banning PUREX was understandable (it WAS a major proliferation risk), but now there are many other reprocessing technologies that are not proliferation risks but are still banned under the wording of the executive order.

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  16. Re:Just Takes One by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2, Informative

    In the 1940s-1950s, the US detonated numerous nuclear weapons above ground in Nevada and New Mexico, releasing a hell of a lot more radioactive material than Chernobyl

    Nope. The 100 or so bombs detonated above ground on the US mainland were relatively small, releasing a few kg of material each. Chernobyl released tons of material. To match that, you'd have to go to the US thermonuclear tests in the Pacific ocean, some of which released about of ton of fission products each. (Some of those test site islands are actually still uninhabitable.)

  17. Re:Just Takes One by Ihmhi · · Score: 4, Funny

    Science-to-car analogy translation:

    All car engines use small explosions to provide power. What you don't want to happen is a really big explosion.

  18. Applications by TopSpin · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here is a map of sites for which applications have been submitted to the NRC and are currently undergoing review. None of these will happen until the political will emerges to move the bureaucracy.

    --
    Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
  19. Re:Just Takes One by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 2, Informative

    All wrong:

    1. Reactors don't explode. :
                      See SL-1, Chernobyl, and the one the AEC blew in Idaho just for fun.

    2. A Chernobyl style accident is impossible with a light water reactor.
                True, but there are still about 843 other failure modes that don't involve the many bad
    design features of RBMK-style reactors.

    3. Even with a Chernobyl style reactor and even if they had the exact same accident the problem would have been manageable if they had a freaking containment building.
          Not feasible if you're a poor country that needs a RBMK style reactor that can be refueled while running.

    4. Reactors all go critical. What you don't want is for them to go super critical.
              Duh. And I think you're confusing super-critical to with prompt-critical. Very different beasts.

    5. No modern reactor can go super critical the fuel they use isn't enriched enough to go super critical and they all need a moderator like water to work.
            Nope. Enrichment has nothing to do with it. AT least three reactors have gone boom with low enrichment uranium.

  20. Meh by bill_kress · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm kind of neutral about the whole subject. Neat tech, but trusting corporations is not in my nature.

    Also, when compared to wind and solar, Nuclear is the one power source that allow corporations to retain control of power generation.

    But balancing that is the fact that it's a pretty continuous source of energy...

    What I'd really like to understand (I always ask this and I've never gotten an answer) is why some people are so for it. They aren't going to make money off it, overall it will not save them money (Even those of us who live exclusively off dams don't have THAT much of a money savings)...

    I can understand people being really against it. Fear of the unknown, lack of understanding, history (quite a few people have died in the past)

    I can also understanding someone being somewhat for it (I'd be tempted to vote for one in my city, although the last one here was a complete cluster-fsck) but where does one get the motivation for the positive passion that this topic so often seems to create?

    1. Re:Meh by Tteddo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      To me it's the sheer volume of power you get from each reactor. Seabrook in NH is 1244 MW. Our subs measure the amount on uranium fuel used for a core's lifetime in grams. That's all the power used for propulsion, etc. for a period of years. Of course there's a lot more to it than that, but that's what gets me. Compared to 2 hydro dams near here that are 1.2MW or thereabouts a piece.
      I loved it when I was in the Navy and all the protesters against Seabrook, and no one stopped to think that there were at least 4 mobile reactors at the shipyard across the river at any given time back then.

    2. Re:Meh by plover · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because nuclear power is greener than fossil fuels (the emissions are tiny, solid and containable, and it doesn't destroy whole ecosystems like hydroelectric dams), it's more effective/efficient than terrestrial sources (a nuclear plant is very "compact" compared to the land mass of solar array or a giant farm of 1MW windmills ) and we have enough fuel to run them for centuries (as opposed to oil and gas which are rapidly dwindling, and could be used for other purposes such as plastics and lubrication.) Read all of the above posts to understand more of the benefits. They are very exciting.

      The drawbacks are all about the waste: how do you store a thing that's dangerous for tens of thousands of years? How do you adequately protect a thing that's desired by terrorists?

      As engineers, we see those as solvable problems. But they are never implemented because of the political opposition, not because of any technical reason. And nothing pisses us off faster than pointing out a perfectly valid solution to a problem only to be told we can't do that because some ignorant people are afraid. "No, you can't run a nuclear train through my town, even though the cars have been crash tested at 150 MPH," or "You can't bury that waste thousands of feet below the ancient burial grounds of my already dead great-great-great grandparents, we must honor them properly from within our sacred Casinos."

      That's where my passion comes from, and it's probably not an uncommon sentiment here on /.

      --
      John
    3. Re:Meh by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What I'd really like to understand (I always ask this and I've never gotten an answer) is why some people are so for it.

      I consider myself a sane and pragmatical environmentalist. That is, I believe that we shouldn't crap all over the place just because it's easy and convenient for us to do so today, disregarding the consequences of those actions tomorrow. Thus, I believe that we should gradually reduce the use of fossil fuels (i.e. as fast as possible, but without collapsing our economy and inducing quality of life decrease).

      On the other hand, I still believe that needs of humanity come first, and that nature (and, in general, world around us) is something that we should use towards our goals and preserve for the sake of self-preservation; and not something inherently valuable in and of itself, or a god to worship. Thus, I do not support significant scaling back of our energy use - most of it really isn't excess, but is required to maintain our present living standard. Reducing energy consumption would require scaling it back very significantly, and I do not want to see that happen. We can definitely try to trim consumption down where possible, by using more energy efficient machines and technologies (such as those nifty insulated houses that leak very little heat). But in the end, this is still a drop in the ocean.

      The only way I see to reconcile these two viewpoints is to embrace nuclear power (and in perspective, when they get it to work, fusion). It's reasonably clean - yes, there's waste, but that can be fairly easily contained and controlled. It is powerful enough to sustain our energy use, even extrapolating future growth. And it is going to last for very long, long enough to research the next step (be it fusion or something else).

      Nothing else cuts it. Not solar, not wind, and not tidal. I fully support their use wherever possible, but they quite obviously aren't enough to cover our needs without scaling them back significantly.

    4. Re:Meh by plover · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The green reasons don't drive the passion. They're strong arguments, but that's not the answer you were looking for. The passion comes from the denial for purely political reasons. When it's important enough, we can keep stuff out of the wrong hands. We can indeed get rid of it by burying it deep -- hundreds of meters beneath the bottom of the ocean is an almost perfect natural storage repository. We can monitor the hell out of the corporations using it (we already do.) Every problem facing nuclear power has been solved.

      Because there are no valid reasons to say "no", being told "no" by intentionally stupid people for invalid reasons ignites a negative emotion -- anger. Anger is just as motivating as the positive passions.

      The real answer is anger at willfully stupid people. Ordinary, garden-variety stupid people don't bother me, because I know that some people don't have the capacity to learn. It's the ones that deliberately refuse to learn from history or from mountains of evidence that really piss me off.

      --
      John
    5. Re:Meh by lennier · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The green reasons don't drive the passion. They're strong arguments, but that's not the answer you were looking for. The passion comes from the denial for purely political reasons."

      I don't understand what you mean by the phrase "purely political". If you mean "a majority of voters in a democracy don't want it"... well, DUH. When it comes down to it, everything that happens in a society which has to do with human choices is "political" in that sense.

      The reason why nuclear power is rejected by the majority is fear, and that fear comes from very valid reasons: the deep military-level secrecy and corruption shrouding even the basic science as well as the technolgoy of nuclear physics, and the proven failures of some nuclear power companies from the 1970s to the 1990s to administer their plants to the required level of competence.

      "When it's important enough, we can keep stuff out of the wrong hands"

      That however, is a very big "if". When we thought it was important enough, we were also able to go to the Moon with slide rules. However, things change, infrastructure decays, and we don't currently have even Apollo technology; so do you really want to bet on the lives of your citizens not only that "when it's important" you can keep a massively complicated and inherently dangerous power-generating infrastructure safe, but that you can promise and deliver this safety for generations afterwards, even through social upheavals? Because that's what you have to able to do.

      The really big problem with nuclear power, and what generates so much fear around it - and yes, it is a "political" issue in that it deals with the geometries of social power and centralisation vs decentralisation, bureaucracy vs democracy, issues that all geeks should be concerned about - is that nuclear fission is an *inherently unsafe* technology. It can be MADE safe, within certain tolerances, but only after the fact, by adding various countermeasures. Those all add risk, cost and centralisation, putting social power in the hands of a few. Do we really want to go down that route?

      Ionizing radiation is inherently hostile to carbon-based life. That's the bottom line. No, it won't kill you instantly, but it's there and it's not part of the normal Earth ecosystem. To make fission power work, you have to find ways of blocking, neutralising, or containing that radiation. You have to take it out of the eco-loop somehow. You have to build technological walls and ghettos, create danger zones, invent safety protocols. None of which are needed with other forms of power, to the same extent. It just seems like going about things the wrong way and asking for trouble.

      "Because there are no valid reasons to say "no""

      Yes, there are, and I've listed them above. Inherent risk, and forced centralisation vs decentralisation of generation infrastructure. Both are unacceptable to my way of thinking.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    6. Re:Meh by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can't explain everyone, but I can explain why I'm for it.

      One day, I decided as a mental exercise to consider all current and near term likely power sources and their environmental impacts great and small. Of all of them, nuclear technology potentially has the least overall impact. Wind farms require clearing of large amounts of land, spoil the natural beauty, and kill birds. Hydro kills fish and drys longstanding wetlands while flooding other habitats. Coal requires large mining operations, releases great amounts of greenhouse gasses and other pollutants into the environment and produces harmful slag that just gets buried with little oversight. Solar would require clear cutting to produce enough energy for civilization.

      Even going solar at my house would require me to cut down the trees in my front yard which are currently providing a nice habitat for many birds and other animals as well as giving me shade and a nice view. Somehow, I just can't see clear cutting my fairly wooded neighborhood as the environmentally friendly option.

      Nuclear will require some land, but that land can be reclaimed from existing coal plants. We have already mined enough uranium to last for many decades if we go with breeder technology. If we choose IFR, we can use the "spent" fuel we already have in "temporary" storage. The waste it produces will be kept away from the environment until it becomes safe in a few hundred years. Fuel suitable for an IFR is a much worse source for weapons than natural uranium ore. It would be too "poisoned" with actinides.

      As for the dangers, we have to look at Chernobyl. That reactor was the most dangerous design that is still in operation and the operators still had to do practically every don't in the manual to have it become a problem. In the U.S. it wouldn't have even been allowed to continue operating under a grandfather clause because of it's inherently dangerous design. The closest example we have under U.S. safety rules is TMI which, in spite of the hype and scare headlines ultimately did no harm. Since it was built, we have figured out how to greatly improve safety.

  21. Re:Just Takes One by david.given · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't forget:

    6. Coal power stations, worldwide, release approximately the same amount of radioactive material into the atmosphere every year than Chernobyl did, ever.

    Which means we that if we could replace those coal power stations with nuclear ones then we could have a Chernobyl-style event every couple of years and still come out ahead.

  22. Re:Thorium reactor by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Breeders have been tried, to the extent of about 20 billion dollars, over the last 40 years. All have failed. It's really hard to make something that can run with the very high neutron fluxes for years and years. There are only so many different materials and alloys to choose from and they all tend to fall apart after a while with 10^38 neutrons per cm^2 per second buzzing thru them.

    In addition we may have passed the point of no return re breeders-- i.e. if we had breeders right now, there isn't enough uranium left to run the current bunch of reactors and breed any usable amount of new material.

    There's also the slight problem of building plutonium-burning reactors and not losing a few kilos to the bad guys.

  23. Lost Time by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think it's great to see new nuclear power coming online, but it's too bad this is simply the completion of a project begun in the 1970's. There hasn't been enough work done in the US to advance the design of nuclear power stations in the last few decades. I wonder how much more efficiently these stations could be built and run today if we had been focused on the problem all this time.

    1. Re:Lost Time by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think it's great to see new nuclear power coming online, but it's too bad this is simply the completion of a project begun in the 1970's. There hasn't been enough work done in the US to advance the design of nuclear power stations in the last few decades. I wonder how much more efficiently these stations could be built and run today if we had been focused on the problem all this time.

      Actually, there's been a lot of work on reactor designs over the last decade o so:

      GE has the ABWR and SBWR plants, and ABWRs have been built in Japan,

      Westinghouse has the AP-600 (now AP-1000), and

      CE had the System 80+

      Of these, the SBWR and AP-1000 are probably the most advanced, in the sense of passive safety systems and i teh SBWR's case, natural circulation. Both are attempts to simply construction and operation to reduce costs and increase safety.

      The AP-1000 and SBWR will probably be the next generation of US plats, built at existing sites where multiple units were planned but not built; since those sites have already passed NRC site approval.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  24. Re:Thorium reactor by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think I'm probably just feeding a troll, but you're mixing apples and onions. Coal, natural gas, nuclear, wind, water and solar are for stationary power (i.e. electricity). Oil is for portable power (i.e. planes, trains and automobiles). The current discussion is about stationary power generation.

    --
    No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
  25. I heard... by lymond01 · · Score: 5, Funny

    that they were just waiting on Windows 7.

  26. hit by lowest-bidder disasters by aztracker1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And the military isn't?

    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
  27. Re:Just Takes One by drgould · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Also, a past president (Carter?) banned all nuclear fuels reprocessing in the U.S. with an executive order. Back then, reprocessing = PUREX and banning PUREX was understandable (it WAS a major proliferation risk), but now there are many other reprocessing technologies that are not proliferation risks but are still banned under the wording of the executive order.

    Quibble. President Reagan lifted the ban in 1981.

    President Reagan lifted the ban in 1981, but did not provide the substantial subsidy that would have been necessary to start up commercial reprocessing.

  28. Externality (Waste Disposal) by dcollins · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "TVA's board decided in 2007 to finish the reactor because it is projected to provide cheaper, no carbon-emitting power..."

    Where does the waste go? (TBD) What is the cost of waste disposal? (TBD) Have they factored that cost into their calculations? (No)

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    1. Re:Externality (Waste Disposal) by IICV · · Score: 4, Insightful
      TBD is better than the answers you get for coal:
      • Where does the waste go? (Into the air, including all the little radioactive uranium and thorium particles that live in coal)
      • What is the cost of waste disposal? (Absolutely free, because we're just farting it all out into the atmosphere. Not quite as cheap when you factor in the increased incidence of cancer in those who live downwind, though.)
      • Have they factored that cost into their calculations? (Nope, and that's why we have the problems we do today.)
  29. huh? by confused+one · · Score: 2

    What's with the reference to the coal fly-ash spill in the middle of the summary about TVA building nuclear power plants?

    1. Re:huh? by Chirs · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because fly-ash is radioactive.

  30. Re:Just Takes One by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Informative

    1. Not really an explosion. It was more of steam rupture. No combustion or nuclear explosion was responsible. Just think of it as venting in a hurry. But that can happen with your home hot water heater.
    2. But none of those will cause a Chernobyl style disaster.
    3. The US isn't a poor country that needs to refuel the reactor while it is running.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  31. Home means Nevada, home means the hills... by Xaedalus · · Score: 5, Funny

    The hills of Dixie Valley in this case. Fallon, NV was witness to an above-ground nuke in the 1960's at some point. The whole town came out to watch the big boom (more than 25 miles away). Apparently you can still go out there to Dixie Valley and see the blast crater. And yes, I'm a Nevadan. I glow in the dark and sport an absurd immunity to arsenic. When the apocalypse does come around, I and my fellow Nevadans will be duking it out with the giant mutant cockroaches and their cthonic overloads atop the mounds of your corpses. (Texans ain't got shit when it comes to heat, environment, guns per capita, or any claim to be tough in general - we laugh in their general direction)

    --
    Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
    1. Re:Home means Nevada, home means the hills... by smellsofbikes · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Mushroom cloud over Las Vegas, NV, from the university of las vegas photo collection. Here's another that's actually a photograph instead of a heavily retouched/colorized picture. These are from November, 1951.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
  32. Well, reactor, not plant by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The summary is all over in terms of calling it new plant, when it is really a new reactor. But that is a good start. It would be nice if the pubs would push the concept of even 1 new nuclear plant / every 4 states. Heck, the stimulus money could have done a nice job of funding this and allowing us to move nicely to electric cars.

    With that said, I do think that we need to continue with AE esp Geo-thermal and Solar Thermal. Both are capable of base load power, which is really what is needed.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  33. Re:Just Takes One by gandhi_2 · · Score: 2, Funny

    No kidding. I mean, we already have constant hydrogen fusion in the sun, making large swaths of the earth inhabitable. And we all know how THAT turned out.

  34. Re:Just Takes One by DaleSwanson · · Score: 5, Informative
    http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html I won't say if the specific example is true but:

    Using these data, the releases of radioactive materials per typical plant can be calculated for any year. For the year 1982, assuming coal contains uranium and thorium concentrations of 1.3 ppm and 3.2 ppm, respectively, each typical plant released 5.2 tons of uranium (containing 74 pounds of uranium-235) and 12.8 tons of thorium that year. Total U.S. releases in 1982 (from 154 typical plants) amounted to 801 tons of uranium (containing 11,371 pounds of uranium-235) and 1971 tons of thorium. These figures account for only 74% of releases from combustion of coal from all sources. Releases in 1982 from worldwide combustion of 2800 million tons of coal totaled 3640 tons of uranium (containing 51,700 pounds of uranium-235) and 8960 tons of thorium.

  35. Re:Just Takes One by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Informative

    Ummm .... just how many deaths and how much radioactivity was released by 3MI? Approx: None.

     

    The ONLY lesson to be learned from Chernobyl is that a tin roof over a bad rector design isn't a good combination. Modern reactors have both failsafe designs AND better containment, so no, it can't happen here. Reactors like (eg.) the Pebble Bed reactor have no unstable state. Even if some lunatic director goes berserk in the reactor control room he can't cause a meltdown.

    --
    No sig today...
  36. Its the waste stupid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No one answers the question: Where are you going to put the waste? You can't recycle or reprocess everything and whats left is mind bogglingly bad.

    The reason is, there is no answer for a 250,000 year problem like that. Even if you find a 'solution' to keep it out of the easy to parts of the world we use you still have left future generations a crap load of trouble in addition to what every they will have to deal with.
    Thanks mom.

  37. IT'S ABOUT TIME!!!!!..... by IHC+Navistar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ABOUT FUCKING TIME!!!!!

    It's great to hear about someone finally building another nuclear plant in stead of another coal- or gas-fired plant. Here in the People's Republik of Kalifornia, nuclear power is verboten, and mentioning it will get your ass drummed out of town by "newspaper scientists" and politicians who allow themselves to be led around by the nose by environmentalists who wouldn't know a rational thought if it bit them on the nose.

    However, unless this is a PBMR, the problem is only half-finished. Nuclear wast cannot be stored for the thousands or millions of years that it would need to decay to a safe level. The solution would be to use a breeder reactor to efficiently reprocess the waste fuel, instead of simply storing it underground. This would reduce the amount of raw fuel production that would be needed, and would greatly reduce the quantity of radioactive waste, which could be separated into usable isotopes. Apparently, Jimmy Carted, despite his nuclear degrees, thought that it would be better just to let waste accumulate in huge quantities underground, instead of *RECYCLING* it back into usable nuclear fuel, and caved into the demands of the Greens and banned breeder reactor construction.

    Here in the People's Republik of Kalifornia, Greens attack every form of power generation, except, for some reason, gas turbines.

    1. Solar - Uses up too much valuable land, not efficient enough for the energy demands of the state. Extremely expensive and not useful on cloudy days. Technology not advanced enough.
    2. Wind - Indefinite moratorium in CA, because the places windy enough to make them efficient are in the flight paths of birds. Banned in Altamont, CA, the windiest place on the planet.
    3. Nuclear - "Sen." Feinstein has vowed to oppose any form of nuclear power. Not going to happen in CA. Feinstein refuses to educate herself on PBMRs, and instead listens to lobbyists.
    4. Geothermal - Not efficient enough due to too few suitable locations (Many in open spaces and parks).

    Rep. Ellen Tauscher, a Democrat from Kalifornia, is one of the few Democrats to actually see the advantages of nuclear power generation over those who remain blinded by politics. Although a democrat, I still have to give her serious props in her position on nuclear power.

    --
    Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
  38. Re:Just Takes One by Colourspace · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you have so little faith in the future of technology, and the improvements it brings daily, then I have little faith about your future on slashdot.

  39. Re:Just Takes One by The_Wilschon · · Score: 2, Informative

    Almost. The delayed neutrons are actually the ones emitted by the fission products as they decay to more stable isotopes (by neutron emission, obviously). What you are thinking of is fast neutrons. Most neutrons emitted by fission reactions (whether prompt or delayed) are fast. Depending on your fuel and reactor design, you may be able to use fast neutrons to cause fission (hence fast breeder reactor), or you may need to slow them down (turn them into thermal neutrons) using a moderator first. Other than that nitpick, you're spot on.

    --
    SIGSEGV caught, terminating

    wait... not that kind of sig.
  40. Re:Just Takes One by Xtifr · · Score: 3, Informative

    Wikipedia also says: "A 1,000 MW coal-burning power plant could release as much as 5.2 tons/year of uranium (containing 74 pounds (34 kg) of uranium-235) and 12.8 tons/year of thorium." One big difference here is that an event like the Three Mile Island accident is usually a one-time event, while the coal-burning plant goes on releasing its radioactive material year after year after year....

    I'm not going to take sides because I don't know how many curies you get from the release of 5.2 tons of uranium and 12.8 tons of thorium, or what the typical lifespan of a coal plant is (the multiplication factor here), but I definitely don't think it's quite as simple a matter as your brief post suggested. Can you show your work in a little more detail?

  41. First New Nuclear in a Decade? by Kizeh · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The title is pretty misleading, as it omits "US." One might also look outside of the US borders for some examples of how new nuclear power plants are coming along -- or aren't.

  42. Re:Just Takes One by c6gunner · · Score: 3, Funny

    You're being unfair to the Titanic. In order for it to be a fair comparison, you'd have to have the crew of the Titanic cut hols in all of the interior bulkheads, cut apart all the lifeboats and life-preservers, and then steer the ship at full speed directly into the biggest iceberg they could find. Only then would the Titanic incident be somewhat comparable to the sheer negligence of the Chernobyl technicians.

  43. Re:Just Takes One by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Informative

    Our reactors are NOTHING like Chernobyl and it is that NIMBY crap that keeps us using coal instead of something better for the environment like Nuclear!

    With Chernobyl you are talking about an ancient Soviet era nuclear reactor that had been scheduled to be shut down years before it went off, but they were simply too poor to afford to take it off line. IIRC they are actually still running the second reactor at Chernobyl as we speak!

    With reactors in the USA, we constantly inspect them, we have full size trainers designed to simulate just about any possible problem that could arise to train the crews that man them (one of the problems with Chernobyl is a poorly trained crew IIRC) and ours are well maintained and serviced. The simple fact is we NEED nuclear power if we are gonna get off coal, which spits poisonous smog and greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere. And the technology for powering a country the size of the USA with solar or wind simply isn't there yet.

    So I welcome the new reactor in Tenn and welcome the folks of Tenn into the "cheap power" club. As someone who lives in AR and enjoys cheap clean power thanks to Ar 1 & 2 I say welcome to the club and don't let the NIMBYs stop you.

    --
    ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  44. Re:Just Takes One by deltharius · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hahahahahaha. You do realize that all the military nuclear propulsion reactors were built by private company low-contract (or blind contract) developers, right? A good number of them were under my father's control while he was the Branch Manager of the NRF (Naval Reactor Facility) at the INEL (Idaho National Engineering Laboratory, now INL, formerly INEEL). The reactors such as S1W (Submarine 1 Westinghouse), A1W (Aircraft Carrier 1 Westinghouse), S5G (Submarine 5 General Electric), etc. were built by private contractors; the INEL/INEEL/INL has the DoE reactors operated currently by Bechtel, previously by some Lockheed-Martin subsidiary, someone else before that ... it changes every few years. Bechtel also runs Bettis and Knolls Atomic Power Labs.

    The military and government reactors are already built and run by low-bidders. And yet, even with that, there has been one (1) fatal nuclear accident in the US. Three military personnel died in a meltdown and explosion in 1961 at SL-1 reactor at the INEL. So, thinking that military reactors are safer... well, in the US they have the same record for the last 48 years - 0 fatal accidents; but military loses before that...

  45. Re:Just Takes One by mqduck · · Score: 2, Funny

    It was more of a "Titanic" incident than anything else I can think of in history.

    Do I really need to point out the obvious here?

    --
    Property is theft.
  46. Re:Just Takes One by RasTafarii · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Name the others...

    --

    "...can you imagine a BEOWULF CLUSTER of these? That'd be some serious power!"

  47. Whoosh! by HiggsBison · · Score: 2, Funny

    Criticality is a function of free neutrons: if there's not enough to sustain a reaction, it's subcritical; if it's break-even, it's critical, and if there are enough to grow the reaction it's supercritical. Contrary to the movies, a reactor that's critical is not a failure state (it's normal operation). Even "supercritical" isn't necessarily trouble (though if you stay supercritical for too long it will eventually be).

    When a reactor finds fault with 'most everything you do or say, it is said to be "hypercritical".

    --
    My other car is a 1984 Nark Avenger.
  48. A lot of zeros by dsmall · · Score: 2, Insightful

    To me this seems a pretty easy answer once you look at the raw numbers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-235 shows that when one atom of U-235, once fissioned, releases 202.5 MeV of heat. That's 202,500,000 electron volts, a.k.a., one huge amount of energy.

    An atom of carbon when burned (C + 2 Ox->COx2) releases a few electron volts of energy and gives us carbon dioxide, which is said to be a "greenhouse gas". (I'm not debating that point).

    Let's just do it with money, okay?

    Hold an atom of carbon in one hand. Hold an atom of uranium in the other hand. The carbon's worth a few dollars. The uranium's worth Two Hundred Million Dollars. Which one do you pick? If you pick uranium, you just hit the Lotto Jackpot!

    Bear in mind that you have to get enough of either to meet the energy needs of the country, and it's very hard to get enough coal, and much easier, by a factor of two hundred million, to get uranium.

          Jimmy Carter made the unfortunate decision (funny how those words appear next to his name) not to include used fuel rods in reprocessing. There's a lot of energy there awaiting.

    I think what we ought to do as a country is swallow some pride, go to France, which gets about 80% of its energy from nuclear, and say, "Obviously you have a well debugged design. Help! Show us how to do it!" The French do it right. You know how useful debugged code is.

            Thanks,

            Dave Small

  49. Re:Just Takes One by orzetto · · Score: 2, Interesting
    1. There was no nuclear explosion, all right, but explosions can be defined as "venting in a hurry".
    2. You are basically saying that, since the Titanic cannot be used for a 9/11-style attack, the Titanic is safe.
    3. Oh yes it is. Reactor downtime is a major killer of economic performance, and no one can afford to keep plants off the grid for a second more than strictly necessary. Given the poor economic performance of all nuclear reactors to date, reactor uptime has to be kept high for any future design. See also Paine, J. R. Will nuclear power pay for itself? The Social Science Journal, 1996, 33, 459-473 for a detailed study on the economics of nuclear power.
    --
    Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
  50. Thorium Reactors - An Alternative... by VoidCrow · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The following links are to a couple of interesting Google Tech Talks on Youtube, covering the subject of Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors. Carlo Rubbia (Nobel-winning physicist) is pushing another class of thorium reactor - the accelerator-driven system.

    I hope you find them of interest - they're quite long.

  51. Re:Just Takes One by Ihlosi · · Score: 2, Insightful
    This argument keeps surfacing, but coal plants do not concentrate these radioactive materials to dangerous levels. Remember that radioactivity is one of those problems where, if you spread the problem enough, the problem disappears.

    So we should just go back to dumping all radioactive waste in the oceans? That's one helluva dilution factor right there.

  52. Re:Just Takes One by Vanders · · Score: 2, Informative

    Westinghouse et al...just order a coat of green paint to go onto their Chernobyl era dinosaur designs instead.

    Western designs are absolutely nothing like the RBMK series reactor that was built at Chernobyl. Reactor design may have stood still in the United States over the past three decades, but other western countries (& a few non-western countries) have been building new reactors and improving reactor design while the US has been sleeping. Modern CANDU designs, the Westinghouse AP1000, ABWR & APWR are not 1950's technology.

  53. Re:Just Takes One by squizzar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Uranium is basically harmless, radiation-wise (any radioactive material that has been around since the Earth formed is not meaningfully radioactive).

    Ask the people of Cornwall in the UK (and some parts of the US, I can't remember which) about Radon. Here's a handy map:
    http://www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1197636998945?p=1158934607683
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radon#Radon_concentration_guidelines

    How the danger of Radon building up in houses to the general public was discovered:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_and_radon_in_the_environment#Radon_in_houses

  54. because someone said by nimbius · · Score: 2, Insightful

    the president is giving out free money for clean energy, and someone at the TVA with a yacht said, "i gotta get me some of that!"

    but really guys, 19 years of rats and rain? just how efficient and on time do you expect this thing to be, let alone safe, once you bring it up? Almost two decades have passed, in which time things like the pebble bed reactor have come about as more efficient and powerful means of generating nuclear energy. its like trying to finish your kids new crib after theyve turned 12.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  55. Nuclear by AP31R0N · · Score: 3, Funny

    Nuclear... the OTHER n-word Americans are phobic about.

    --
    Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
  56. Re:Just Takes One by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As the another commenter said, a coal plant releases a few tons/year of uranium into the air.

    Uranium has an incredibly long half-life and tends to remain in the body due to its chemical properties.

    Xenon-135 (which is what the majority of TMI's release consisted of) has a half-life of 9.2 hours and is chemically unreactive, so doesn't tend to concentrate itself anywhere.

    Given a choice between living 5 miles from a coal plant or 5 miles from a nuclear plant (US-design, NOT an RBMK...), I'll take the nuclear plant any day.

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  57. Re:Just Takes One by QuantumPion · · Score: 2, Informative

    Criticality is not a function of free neutrons. Criticality (or rather, the multiplication factor) is an eigenvalue of a system and is independent of flux. A reactor can be critical with zero neutrons flying around. This is actually a real issue, because when a reactor is being initially loaded while offline, you need a constant, external neutron source to provide some flux- otherwise if the core was misloaded you could be critical and not even know until it was too late.

  58. Re:Just Takes One by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Please get over you mindless fear.
    1. When people talk about reactors exploding they are usually thinking big mushroom cloud destroying a city. Not going to happen. Even a massive steam explosion in a western style light water reactor is EXTREMELY unlikely. The reactor in Idaho people like to bring up wasn't a commercial reactor but an experimental military reactor. Even then it killed fewer people than died at my local oil fired power plant putting up Christmas decorations.

    2. Since a Chernobyl style accident is IMPOSSIBLE then bringing it up when talking about a western light water water power reactor is tactic to use groundless fear to scare the ignorant. And yes you are correct there is no reason to protect a building more than a mile for the water from being rammed by the Titanic.

    3. We can discuss that when they want to build a power reactor in the US that doesn't have a containment building. All planned reactors in the US will have them. Also the Social Science Journal isn't an engineering or even a physics journal. In fact this is on their front page today. "Child maltreatment in Disney animated feature films: 1937â"2006 "
    How about a reference from a physics journal or even the IEEE to back it up?

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  59. Re:Just Takes One by DuckDodgers · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The US uses about 1.1 billion tons of coal per year ( http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/page/special/feature.html ), or a minimum of (http://www.reade.com/Particle_Briefings/spec_gra2.html - assuming solid anthracite, the densest form of coal) 35 billion cubic feet of coal per year. Total US spent nuclear fuel by the year 2015 is projected to be about 75,000 metric tons, or 82,500 US tons ( http://www.sdi.gov/lc_nucle.htm )

    So getting about 50% of our electrical power from coal per year requires us to burn over a cubic half mile of coal.

    I think it's clear that nuclear is the winner here.