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Piston-Powered Nuclear Fusion

katarn writes "General Fusion is a startup proposing they can create commercially viable fusion using acoustic shock waves, triggered by 220 precisely controlled pneumatic pistons. Their approach is based on a US Naval research concept called 'Linus' and old research done by General Atomics. They feel we now have the high-speed, digital processing capable of pulling off this feat, where decades ago the technology was not available. I think we can hold off on the 'vaporware' claims for a bit; everyone is aware of the horrible track record for turning fusion concepts into reality, but they don't claim to be the first with the idea or that there are not substantial challenges in the way. If nothing else, it is a fascinating concept." Los Alamos National Laboratory has further details on this type of fusion, and longtime LANL researcher Ronald Kirkpatrick did an external assessment (PDF) of General Fusion's plans. Popular Science had a lengthy story about the company a while back. The reason they're back in the headlines now is that they've secured enough funding to begin work on a prototype reactor.

32 of 147 comments (clear)

  1. Steam punk angle? by houstonbofh · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I mean, come on, this is just begging for some steam punk artwork!

  2. OK, interesting by PinkyGigglebrain · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Skimmed the article, they're planing to do with pistons what would be done explosives in a normal nuclear bomb.

    Wouldn't it be funny if it worked?

  3. In other news... by binarylarry · · Score: 4, Funny

    Colonel Fission is pissed and has vowed to crush General Fusion's puny attempts at creating nuclear energy!

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  4. Actively stabilized fusion by Animats · · Score: 5, Informative

    There's been some modest interest in actively stabilized fusion for a while, but this is the first mechanical scheme.

    The basic problem with fusion reactors is that the plasmas aren't stable. Most work to date involves trying to come up with some geometry that produces an inherently stable plasma. So far, nothing works, although some geometries almost work. But it's not that hard to build a small machine that has an unstable plasma. The original Stellerator, in 1951, did that.

    The instabilities occur on the order of milliseconds, not microseconds or nanoseconds. That's slow enough that some kind of active stabilization scheme to nudge the instabilities back in line might work. Something with a large number of sensors and actuators. But I'd been expecting electrostatic deflection plates or magnets, not physical pistons.

    1. Re:Actively stabilized fusion by deglr6328 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Uhhhh, what are you talking about? The plasma parameters are not by any means, in so far as I can see, actively controlled in any way in this scheme. Their plan is to launch two colliding toroidal vortex rings of hot plasma into the vorticular void of a large sphere or rapidly spinning molten LiPb metal. Then, using pistons, they launch an imploding spherically symmetric shockwave into the metal to converge upon the merged spheromaks at the center of the setup. The TOTAL confinement time looks like it'll be measured in microseconds at most on this thing, no way is there time for active control of the plasma during a shot like that.

      As fusion schemes go, I am obligated to express my opinion that this one is way fucking wacky, however, it is significantly less wacky than a lot of other ideas out there (polywell, I'm looking at you) and it does not appear to have any immediate show stoppers associated with it which would allow me to dismiss it out of hand. I am not a physicist, but I did just get home from my job working on one of the nation's largest conventional (laser driven) inertial confinement fusion reactors and I have a very deep enthusiast's interest on these matters. On the laser fusion device that I work on, we have recently begun shooting MTF targets (we call it MIF or magneto-inertial fusion though) on our system as well, and the results are quite interesting. We use a centimeter scale, single loop Helmholtz coil setup with a conventionally laser-driven fusion microcapsule sitting at the center of the coils. The laser fires, compressing the D-T fuel to tremendous pressure and temperature (higher than in the sun's core) and just before the exact moment of maximum compression and fusion burn (bang time) the Helmholtz coils are fired with power from a couple hundred Joule capacitor bank, thereby producing a huge magnetic field in the compressed target capsule and hopefully increasing the plasma confinement time from a mere few picoseconds to several times longer (the Larmor radius of charged particles in a magnetic field of the intensity we produce is on the order of the size of the compressed capsule, it effectively suppresses electron thermal conductivity and confines the hot plasma within itself). Proton deflectrometry has been successfully used to validate the expected ~.2 megagauss magnetic fields in our setups. The work ahead of the guys with this piston driven shockwave idea is enormous, but the field of plasma and fusion physics is still rich with exciting discovery. I wish these gentlemen the very best of luck.

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    2. Re:Actively stabilized fusion by QuantumG · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So what's your opinion of Dense Plasma Focus Fusion then?

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      How we know is more important than what we know.
    3. Re:Actively stabilized fusion by deglr6328 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I won't sugarcoat my thoughts on that one, I'd say it's nothing more than a fraud. The lowest of the low, vastly kookier than even Bussard's Polywell. I have followed discussions about Eric Lerner and focus fusion VERY closely on the wikipedia pages and I have little to no respect for that man's ideas about fusion or his tactics of argument. He does not have a PhD and he is not a physicist. His ideas about the "electric universe" are idiotic pseudoscience. I will refer you specifically to the plasma physicist Art Carlson's highly thoughtful and reasonable objections to unconventional fusion schemes in general on this issue, and his objections to focus fusion in particular (all on the wiki pages). His credentials and intellectual honesty in these debates seem, to me anyway, to be impeccable.

      Robert Bussard can be forgiven for his sin of the polywell. He was a really good scientist who achieved some truly admirable things in his career, but at the end I think he realized that he was getting old and would never live to see his dream of fusion power come true, and he started making wacky claims when things became desperate (like extrapolating his supposed observation of three -count em- THREE fusion neutrons from one of his setups to commercial scale power cost estimates, that's just pain nutty). It's unfortunate but entirely forgivable. Art Carlson's criticism of the polywell device as a non-starter due to its being classified as a reactor whose plasma is in thermodynamic disequilibrium (Todd Rider's MIT thesis on this showed that the bremsstrahlung losses are insurmountable) are highly convincing, and the waffling and flouncing about that the polywell supporters do in the face of these criticisms seem highly dubious.

      --
      - "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
    4. Re:Actively stabilized fusion by mako1138 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But it's not that hard to build a small machine that has an unstable plasma.
      The original Stellerator, in 1951, did that.

      Uh, the advantage of a Stellarator is that it's a stable configuration... relatively speaking.

      And indeed it is not difficult to build a machine with an unstable plasma. The history of magnetic confinement fusion research is "oh I've got this great idea for a stable plasma configuration" followed by "we built it and found out that it's not stable enough."

    5. Re:Actively stabilized fusion by PinkyGigglebrain · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think it could. (IANARS, but I play one on /.)

      Not a ground to orbit engine, the assembly would be too heavy for the max thrust of current non-chemical fueled engines. But once in orbit the energy generated could run a VASIMR, conventional ion or water/steam based thruster quite well. With something like that Mars would be less than 6 month round trip, the outer planets and more importantly asteroids would be within practical reach. This kind of engine could be used to bring an asteroid into Earth orbit for mining or divert a rock on an impact trajectory.

      The more I think about it the more I think this idea is just crazy enough to work.

    6. Re:Actively stabilized fusion by deglr6328 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't understand why they need the computing power either.

      here's work on active stabilization. See "Active-Feedback Control of the Magnetic Boundary for Magnetohydrodynamic Stabilization of a Fusion Plasma" [aip.org]. That's a 2006 paper on a scheme involving 192 active feedback coils to stabilize a plasma. There's other work like that, and hope that one of the designs that's almost stable might be nudged into stability with active control.

      Yes but that work was done on the reverse field pinch device called RFX-mod ( http://www.igi.cnr.it/rfxmod2009/ ). It's a tokamak-like magnetic confinement device so it probably has shot times measured in the multi-second range. Plenty of time for active stabilization but way different from this new MTF approach.

      --
      - "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
  5. Code Name: Penuts by Cidolfas · · Score: 4, Funny

    The research team's other concept, which created fusion by enticing atoms with footballs only to pull them all away at the last second, was named 'Lucy'.

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    I am become /dev/null, destroyer of data.
  6. I've got an idea by ClosedSource · · Score: 5, Funny

    You could attach four smart mechanical arms to someone's brain stem (with an inhibitor chip of course). Those extra arms could make the millisecond adjustments to keep the instabilities in check. I have to admit this sounds familiar ...

  7. p11B by pitterpatter · · Score: 4, Informative

    Perhaps if the D-T reactor does really well they can redesign it to handle a fuel composed of hydrogen ions (protons, in other words) and Boron-11 ions. The products of this reaction are helium-4 ions, which are not radioactive and do not induce radioactivity in their containment vessel if they are captured electrically. Electrical capture also avoids the losses associated with converting heat to electricity.

    I really hope General Fusion gets this to work, but if I had any money, my money would be on EMC2 Corp, which is working on inertial electrostatic fusion. This or this should get you started on a search for more information.

  8. Interesting... by kabz · · Score: 3, Informative

    I wonder if this is related to the suspected fusion that occurs during ultrasound induced cavitation.

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  9. There is reason to be concerned. by reporter · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The article by "Technology Review" mentions that significant parts of the power-generation device remain to be researched and developed. That is a bad sign.

    Startups, by their very nature, do not succeed on a bet that the technology will be invented. Venture capitalists do not support fairytale wishes.

    Startups use existing, proven technology and package it in new ways to serve a need of the consumer. Startups are about commercializing a technology, not inventing it.

    What startup does breakthrough research? None.

    Research is the luxury of universities (with infinite time horizons) and monopolists like Microsoft .

    1. Re:There is reason to be concerned. by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's exactly that kind of short-sighted thinking that has driven nearly every commercial research and development laboratory out of the United States.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    2. Re:There is reason to be concerned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In his defense, a company can't exactly sustain itself without some type of income.

      Research is something an established company can afford to do.

    3. Re:There is reason to be concerned. by j.boulton · · Score: 4, Informative

      As someone who works for a startup, I cannot empathize how WRONG you are. Almost every aspect of what we do to bring our particular product to market is new and needs to be thoughtfully researched and developed. It isn't easy but the potential rewards make it worthwhile. We spend a lot of time 'proving' our ideas with prototypes to provide proof that we know what we are doing and that the risk for investors is reduced.

    4. Re:There is reason to be concerned. by Jurily · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Research is something an established company can afford to do.

      Mod me flamebait, but from the amount of money the US government spends on securing oil, there really shouldn't be any problems with fusion research funding.

    5. Re:There is reason to be concerned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Startups, by their very nature, do not succeed on a bet that the technology will be invented. Venture capitalists do not support fairytale wishes.

      So very, very ill-informed. Betting on needed technology being invented is a risk and the very thing venture capitalists do is to take great risks expecting to reap in big profits. Profits that cover more than all their other risky investments that fail since they expect most to fail. That is the definition of venture capitalist.

    6. Re:There is reason to be concerned. by arkenian · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Why flamebait? You are correct. I would also like to add the US military budget...

      The US has the means to fund this research. It has chosen not to do so.

      Ummmm. Just want to note that historically speaking the Department of Energy has funded nearly as much in research dollars as the Department of Defense, and that the amount of money spent on (failed) attempts at fusion is not insignificant by any means. You don't see all that much money going to fusion research these days because not many people have come up with NEW ideas that have any sort of solid backing in theoretical physics. In fact, most physicists would argue that its STILL way, way, too easy to get research dollars for purely ridiculous ideas of generating fusion. I will also add that there are still relatively substantial funds going into hot fusion and attempts to improve the energy balance from there. Finally, this whole point is irrelevant to the parent -- large government grants for basic research usually don't go to startups simply because there's no track record of research success etc. Instead they typically go to universities and other established research centers -- and I assure you that the average university has plenty of grants awarded for stuff pretty far out there. On the other hand the Small Business Initative Research grants from DoD etc. are actually a fairly impressive program. While there is definitely no such thing as spending too much money on research, so far as I am aware the US is still on the leader board in terms of research spending.

  10. Pulse fusion, it looks like... by FooAtWFU · · Score: 4, Informative

    They're not going to stabilize the plasma at all, if I understand this right (IANANP). It's a pulse fusion model: put your hydrogen in the middle, surround with a working fluid that they refer to as "liquid metal" (made of lead + lithium), fire off pistons to make a pressure wave in the liquid metal and make a burst of fusion in the middle, generating heat. This makes the molten lead even hotter, and it's circulated through a heat exchanger. The cool part, I thought, was that the lead also absorbs radiation so the casing and equipment doesn't fall apart after a few months because the neutron flux made it brittle. That's a neat trick.

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    1. Re:Pulse fusion, it looks like... by Rei · · Score: 4, Interesting

      One neat thing that they didn't mention: having lithium exposed to a high radiation flux will breed more tritium. It makes its own fuel.

      --
      Aeris Died For Your Sins.
    2. Re:Pulse fusion, it looks like... by dkf · · Score: 3, Informative

      So it's a perpetual motion machine?

      What on earth gave you that impression? Converting lithium to tritium leaves less lithium behind, and the energy would be coming from rearranging nucleons. No perpetual motion there at all.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
  11. Re:p11B - Better link by pitterpatter · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Perhaps this is a better link for Polywell Fusion.

  12. Fantastic Fiction by robbiedo · · Score: 3, Funny

    "General Atomics" Sounds like a company from a 1950's Robert Heinlein novel.

    1. Re:Fantastic Fiction by evanbd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's a reason fifties novels sound like that. It has to do with art imitating life, not the other way around. General Atomics was real. So were General Dynamics and General Electric. So were companies like North American Aviation and The Aerospace Corporation. Some of them even still exist.

  13. Re:If the government did research that proved by jpmorgan · · Score: 3, Informative

    The vast majority of fusion research funds from US government flow through the Department of Energy. The senior guys at the DoE have a few pet approaches to fusion, and 99.9% of the funding goes into those. Innovative, small scale, low cost approaches like this, or IEC polywell fusion are left begging to the Navy for funds, but the Navy has far less money to spend on nuclear research than the DoE.

  14. Re:So its a hydrogen bomb by jpmorgan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Only in the vaguest sense. The secondary stage in a thermonuclear bomb is triggered by a fission primary, however the secondary stage in a thermonuclear bomb is not a purely fusion weapon. It's a multilayer sandwich. The secondary starts off with another fission reaction (the plutonium spark-plug), which helps trigger the fusion reaction (lithium deuteride), which in turn boosts the ongoing fission reaction in the spark plug, which in turn boosts the ongoing fusion reaction. Finally it produces a neutron flux which detonates and consumes the secondary casing (depleted uranium, U-238). Most of the energy in a thermonuclear bomb comes from the fission of the depleted uranium protective casing. Thermonuclear bombs do fission 'better' than purely fission bombs. For the record, this was discovered accidentally when Castle Bravo was a much bigger bang than the designers expected.

  15. Re:Few bad points by amRadioHed · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Relocating to the Vancouver area is a bad point? What world are you living in? On Earth Vancouver is frequently ranked among the planets most livable cities.

    --
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  16. New Idea? by Linker3000 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Maybe we should just move all companies and their fusion experiments to one, single 'fusion science park', with each building next to each other in a ring. We then use large bulldozers to smash all the buildings towards the centre at the same time and see what happens?

    It's an idea? No?

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    AT&ROFLMAO
  17. Re:So its a hydrogen bomb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    The huge yield of Castle Bravo was more due to the unexpected reactions with lithium-7. It wasn't expected to react, but it does capture neutrons, then decays into tritium + a neutron. The tritium quickly fuses with deuterium and releases yet more neutrons. Much of the yield was from the uranium casing, but the reason was the extra high energy neutron flux from the lithium-7. And the secondary in a TU design has the fusion squeezed from both the spark plug detonation (plus a lot of neutrons) and the ablative pressure, on the tamper, from the primary. I'm going to guess that they used a larger amount of the lithium-deuteride because it was only partially enriched. Which meant a lots of unexpected extra energy and neutrons from the lithium-7.

    Mr. Burns: [over the hotline] Oh, meltdown. It's one of these annoying buzzwords. We prefer to call it an unrequested fission surplus.