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A Hypothesis On Segway Hate

theodp writes "Admit it, IT is ingenious. Also, IT is surprisingly effective for certain uses, including real cops and mall cops. And if you tried IT, you probably smiled to yourself. So why all the Segway hate? Paul Graham looks into The Trouble with the Segway and offers a hypothesis about what prompts people to shout abuse at Segway riders: 'You look smug. You don't seem to be working hard enough.' Not that someone riding a motorcycle is working any harder, adds Graham, but because he's sitting astride it, he appears to be making an effort. When you're riding a Segway you're just standing there. Make a version that doesn't look so easy for the rider — perhaps resembling skateboards or bicycles — and Segway just might capture more of the market they hoped to reach."

12 of 487 comments (clear)

  1. Or maybe... by Misanthrope · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We just don't see the need for a personal transport device that costs too much for people who are perfectly capable of either walking or biking.

    1. Re:Or maybe... by itsme1234 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Apart from being insanely expensive you can't ride it legally in most places, neither on the sidewalk nor on the street. And, oh - did I mention expensive? Nah, it's not that, it's how it makes you look...

    2. Re:Or maybe... by pjt33 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Or it could just be a special case of a more general rule: people dislike other road-users, and especially other classes of road-users. Drivers, cyclists, motorcyclists, and pedestrians all hate each other. Cyclists who use lights at night hate cyclists who don't because they're letting the side down. Cyclists who don't probably think those who do are stuck-up twits. Other subclasses (particularly taxi-, bus-, and lorry-drivers) also attract particular enmity. So why should Segway-riders expect to be different?

    3. Re:Or maybe... by tchuladdiass · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If a film maker wants to show one person as being a dominating character, the camera is lowered so it is looking up into the person's face, vs. filming from a higher position as would be done for a weaker character. That psychological cue is what makes a Segway rider appear more bully-like and smug -- just that extra few inches has a large impact.

    4. Re:Or maybe... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Apart from being insanely expensive you can't ride it legally in most places, neither on the sidewalk nor on the street. And, oh - did I mention expensive? Nah, it's not that, it's how it makes you look...

      Oh yeah, don't forget the incredible hype before the thing even came out. You know, how It was going to change the way cities were designed and It was the most revolutionary thing since the invention of the wheel. Yeah, it must be how it makes the rider look. /s
      People hate the Segway because of the over the top, ridiculous pre-release marketing. The Segway is an interesting device, but it is a niche market. It is not a "world changing" device.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    5. Re:Or maybe... by natehoy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Safety statistic comparisons between a segway and a cycle are going to be tricky. They are completely different vehicles operating in different areas.

      I've only got a couple thousand bicycle commuting miles under my belt, but for my commute a segway would be completely impractical. I ride 15 miles each way, and most of that commute is on roads that don't have sidewalks (a good chunk of the commute is on roads that lack shoulders entirely). By cycling carefully (that is, staying as close to the side as possible, riding to the right of the white when there is a shoulder and it's not too broken up, and watching my mirror and being aware that every car might decide not to move over), I've managed to go two years without an accident at all. A few close calls, but no accidents.

      But a segway is a pedestrian device, not a roadway one. The major danger with pedestrians is being unaware of the stopping distance of cars, and/or encountering a car that fails to yield in a crosswalk. A car taking a right-hand turn onto a side road with a "blind crosswalk" (a crosswalk the driver cannot see until they are executing the turn, say due to parked cars) would be a close second on the danger scale.

      A "safe" segway rider is probably safer than a "safe" bicycle rider only because the segway rider can come to a stop at any place they'd likely encounter traffic and wait for traffic to pass or recognize their presence, while a "safe" bicycle rider has traffic closing behind them and if the traffic is inattentive or has a beef with cyclists, the cycle is an easy kill.

      The real risk with segways and cars is speed. If the segway driver is tootling along on a sidewalk and makes a fast turn onto a crosswalk, there may not be enough time for a car doing 25MPH to come to a stop. Pedestrians tend to (but don't always) stop at the road edge and look for the cars to stop first, and even if they step out they won't tend to be moving very fast into the lane, so if a car can't stop they can at least swerve. Bicycles (with riders mounted, not walking the cycle) and segways have a greater opportunity to get completely in front of the car, and therefore an "unsafe" foot pedestrian is easier to avoid than an "unsafe" segway rider (or bicycle rider who thinks they are a pedestrian all of a sudden, which is also a very stupid idea).

      But a segway is limited to 12MPH and areas where they can legally use sidewalks. So the effective range is greatly reduced, and a segway driver is actually more of a risk to the pedestrians around them than anything else is a threat to them. A bicycle (by law) spends most or all of its time in the motorway, not on the sidewalks. A segway operates in pedestrian zones where there are fewer things capable of hitting them.

      The segway may be safer TO THE RIDER, but it's an increased risk to everyone around it, since it is operating silently at speeds 3-4 times the average pedestrian. Walking along, see an interesting news headline or something in a shop window, stop and walk sideways suddenly, and WHAM, "segway hood ornament".

      This is probably part of the cause of "segway hate", or at least dislike. Segways are as dangerous to pedestrians as bicycles, yet they are allowed to operate on the sidewalks. A well-designed electric bicycle will be cheaper, faster, have better range, and operate on the streets where it is not increasing the risk to pedestrians. The segway is a "new niche" which we don't really have a safe spot for in most places yet.

      Dean Kamen was right about one thing. He said that segways would prompt a redesign of cities. And you do need to redesign a city to allow safe use of segways. He just assumed that enough people really wanted them to justify that redesign.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
  2. Get off and walk, fattie by paiute · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The technology is pretty sweet, but really. If you can stand, you should be walking. If you can stand but can't walk, then okay. But how much of the population fits that profile?

    It makes me think of the humans in Wall-E.

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  3. Over-engineered by sqrt(2) · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are few situations where a bicycle wouldn't be a better, cheaper, and more efficient option. The segway is cool, but it's a solution looking for a problem. It's over engineered, too expensive, and in the vast majority of situations offers no benefit over the alternatives.

    --
    If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
  4. Re:like motorcycle riding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Slow speed turns. Bumps, pot holes, debris, ruts, grates, gravel, wet manhole covers and paint stripes. Avoiding FUCKING SUVS. Visual direction control. Lean angles, peg weighting, body english, counter-steer. Decreasing radius turns.

    Balancing a one-in-front-of-the-other 2 wheeled vehicle traveling at over 70mph through rain, crosswinds and traffic without killing yourself isn't exactly *easy*. It's not really anything like a Segway, and I'm quite angered by this authors belittlement of something that I've spent a very large part of my life learning how to do well. I bet you half of the Segway riders can't even operate a clutch in the first place. He obviously has absolutely no fucking clue.

  5. Re:Bingo by bkpark · · Score: 5, Informative

    My objection to the Segway is that we already HAVE a two wheeled, gyroscopicly balanced transport device: It is called a bicycle. Works much better, and is better for you. In the event that the distances you are covering are too far for that, but you still want an efficient two wheeled transport, there's scooters and motorcycles. Even smallish ones can usually reach highway speeds.

    Actually, a bicycle is not gyroscopically balanced. The angular momentum in the bicycle wheel is tiny compared to the overall mass and moment of inertia of bicycle and the rider. It's actually the rider's own sense of balance (whether the hands are on the handle or not) that keeps the bicycle standing, and which is why you have to learn to ride one.

    This isn't to say, of course, that Segways are superior just because they use a gyroscope.

  6. Bullshit by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No. I think most people resent Segway owners because they can _afford_ a multi-thousand dollar replacement that the rest of us poor suckers have to earn using the old left-foot->right-foot technique.

    If Segway's had a reasonable cost that resentment would go away really quick.

    Except we're on Slashdot, not on some inner city single black moms site. (No offense to those, just using them as an example of someone who actually has financial problems.) We have plenty of people here who were arguing against taxing incomes over 250k a year because it would personally affect them.

    Trust me, there are plenty of us who could afford a Segway without problems. Not to brag, but I could buy one out of my day-to-day account at the moment, no need to even withdraw from the savings account or cancel any investments.

    There also are a lot of us around who are into new gizmos and gadgets just because they're new gizmos and gadgets.

    When the combination of the two tells you that they see no point in a Segway, then maybe, just maybe, and I know it might sound crazy, they just don't see the point of a Segway.

    What for? It doesn't really go any faster than I can walk, it doesn't even go everywhere where I can walk, it's nowhere as maneuverable on a crowded sidewalk as walking (wake me up when it can just sidestep to get out of the way of someone running), it's extra effort to haul it to where it can be recharged after each trip (it can't go up or down stairs), it takes up space in your trunk if you want to drive anywhere and still use it there (it's not like you can just commute on it), etc. And most importantly, standing for long periods of time is actually less comfortable than walking.

    Plus, you need _some_ movement or you'll get thrombosis sooner or later, and/or end up looking like a beached whale. So the few calories you save by just standing on it, it's calories you'll have to exercise to shed later. You haven't actually saved any effort, you just did the opposite of smart time management. Instead of profiting from that short walk to the groceries store to also get some minimal exercise out of it, you've just created the case for allocating more time for it later. It's a net loss.

    In Las Vegas fat or lazy people can rent sit-n-go scooters to cart them around the casino because walking would be too much effort. And at that point, you're doing less work than someone standing and only slightly more work than someone sitting in a chair. It's popular because it's cheap, and people have absolutely no shame in using them if they're just lazy.

    Yes, but it's sit-n-go. At least it's more comfortable than walking, if you're tired or lazy, whereas standing isn't. Do you understand that point? It doesn't even have that saving grace.

    And interesting theory that there are deep psychological issues but way off the mark. They just cost too much. If they were $500 everyone would have one.

    Or maybe the only ones with deep psychological problems are the twits who need to project them on everyone who isn't awed by their conspicuous consumption.

    In fact, I suspect that if segways did cost only 500, they'd actually lose sales, because then those twits would need something else to say, "look at what I can afford."

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Bullshit by GlenRaphael · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It doesn't really go any faster than I can walk

      Actually it does, really, go quite a lot faster than you can walk. Unless you can walk over 12 mph, which I rather doubt. But your impression it doesn't does reveal another possible reason people scoff at it. In trying to make it a mass market device, they bent over backwards to make it safe. The segway is, quite frankly, too safe. Too few people have hurt themselves by using one. The multiple keys and speed limiters make it inconvenient to go fast; removing any element of skill in staying upright makes it hard to swerve out of control. So unlike with a motorcycle or a skateboard - two forms of transport it might otherwise seem to resemble - there's no illicit flirting-with-danger cachet. A segway rider isn't risking death and isn't demonstrating skill because the machine won't let you go faster than can be easily stabilized.

      Riding a segway is like riding a tricycle slowly wearing a huge helmet, full pad, and full yellow reflectors. Who needs to be *that* safe?

      So I recommend they design an "extreme" version of the segway with different styling which includes an "overdrive" gear with no speed limiter so you can drive fast enough that it actually takes skill not to die. Or perhaps let people know how to *hack* their segways to get rid of the speed limiter. Once a few thrill-seekers have died from going over 100mph on a segway and crashing into a tree, it might start to seem a little cool.

      --
      I play Nerd-Folk!