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Navigating a Geek Marriage?
JoeLinux writes "I am soon to marry my true love (a girl! yes! they do exist!). She is a literary geek, whereas I am a gaming/Linux geek. Being the RTFM-style geeks that we are, we have been reading up on marriage, making things work, etc. Unfortunately, all of the references seem to be based around an alpha-male jock and a submissive cheerleader-style wife. A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.). What are some of the pitfalls and successes learned in the course of a more geek-oriented marriage?"
A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.).
Sports is an example, not the only cause of neglect. If your girl is a literary geek, she can probably explain this concept to you. Ask her about it when you've finished a gaming or Linux debugging session which prevented you from installing the bookshelf that you promised her 2 weeks ago.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
Don't read books to make your marriage work. Don't ask strangers on slashdot like geeks were some sort of alien race. Get advice from people you know who are already married, parents, relatives -- people you know and trust. And then, relax, ignore it all, as the biggest thing is "different strokes for different folks"/"everyone has to learn for themselves".
Making a marriage work requires three things:
Communication, communication and communication.
Learn how to talk, how to fight, and how to consider the other person, and you'll be fine. Don't try to own your partner and let him/her do things with other people that you can't reasonably do together. Don't be afraid to show your feelings, and talk about little issues before they become big issues. Compromises are inevitable, so don't think of these are a failure on either part.
The single biggest thing that is needed to make a marriage work is simply work. You can't expect a relationship to last without maintenance. Make sure to have time for each other when times are rough, and you'll be fine.
And ultimately, if things eventually stop working, divorce is not really a failure. It's simply an option to be considered if the relationship is hurting either or both parties.
.: Max Romantschuk
The first rule of seeking relationship advice on Slashdot:
1. Do not seek relationship advice on Slashdot.
There is no stock "off the shelf" marriage; every marriage is self-built, like Linux kernel 0.01.
You must learn to modify the source to fix problems that come up. There is no manual, and although there is a large user community, all of them have different systems, and consequently may give you bad advice. At least you have a co-author to help you.
Here is one piece of advice. Neither of you should play timesink online games, such as MMOs, unless you do it together or set clear boundaries about the times when you will play. Otherwise you or your wife will use those games to escape the marriage when it becomes difficult, and avoiding problems will make them worse.
The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
I can't second this enough. In the 4.5 years I've been married, the ONLY time we ever ran into any real trouble was when I tried to "manage" information. The excuse you'll typically tell yourself if tempted to do this is that it's to "spare her feelings", "you couldn't cope with it then", or "spare us an unnecessary fight". Those are excuses...the real reason is you don't want to deal with her reaction and the fallout. Don't give in to that temptation. Be honest, and demand honesty from your partner. That, and a good dose of compatabiltiy and love, will take you through just about anything).
The other underlying principle I'd add is: take the attitude that you're a team, and its you against the world--not necessarily in a combative sense, but in a "we stick together" and an economic (perhaps competative) sense. If you do these two things, you'll do well, and weather just about any storm.
There are other obvious guidelines, like not tearing each other down to your friends (even joking about the ball-and-chain will propogate memes that undermine what you have, so don't do it), not engaging in activity that can result in relationship-destroying behavior that you'll regret--like drunken "boy's nights out" in nightclubs or pick-up joints, or my personal favorite: these idiotic bachelor parties/stag dos that people go on right before they tie the knot (talk about laying the groundwork for a divorce before you're even married) ... but these are all common sense things that are directly derived from the two basic principles above: be absolutely honest with each other even when (or more precisely, especially when) it is difficult, and stick together as a team against the inevitable external pressures that the rest of the world will exert (in whatever form it takes, be it economic, cultural, external tempation, vicious inlaws, jealous exes, or whatever).
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Dear OP,
clearly you are not the target audience of those books, throw them out. You two are the only ones who know enough about your relationship to suggest anything, but if your mindset is having fun walking through life together, you'll be better off than thinking about all the things that go wrong. You mostly find what you're looking for, you know.
And if you let it get boring, it will be boring, and probably short, too.
Geek marriage is not that different to any other marriage. Three pointers:
Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
Marriage is like a static group in any RPG. The same basic facts apply.
1. You need goals to achieve anything. You need to achieve things to be happy. If one or more of your group is unhappy, the result will inevitably be dissolution of the group. Set goals early, set them often.
2. Whenever undertaking any task it is important to understand each group member's role. Though not strictly necessary, it is good to have a leadership position to orchestrate any support roles. This position may be shifted around the group based on whatever the scenario requires.
3. Eventually you will reach conflict, it's inevitable. Practice care in participating in conflicts. Attempt to understand all party's grievances and complaints and effect a useful resolution. Submit the proposed resolution to the group and hope for a diplomatic reception.
4. Keep the channels of communication open. Be sure all group members understand and approve of any actions prior to taking them. Nobody wants a Leeroy Jenkins in their group!
5. When you wish for your group to grow, the most important prerequisite is always preparation.
6. As your group grows in numbers, avoid favoritism. All members should be treated with respect and given the assistance they need to become fully useful participants.
7. Members of your group are unlikely to be so exclusively! They may still have close ties to the group or groups that nurtured them. Be sure to respect those ties and even assist in maintaining them.
8. That said, members of the group must understand their priorities. Most successful groups have prioritized with their own goals in mind.
9. Finally, you are not the group. And the group is not you. Sometimes you must focus on your own goals. Always take time to solo and be understanding of the need of others to do the same.
Those are just a few tips on successful grouping in World of Wedcraft. Good luck!
I read the script, and I think it would help my character's motivation if he was on fire. -Bender
This post, any many other replies to the original question, stink of one thing-- sexism. And frankly, as someone married and a linux/math/science geek too, that's one thing to be wary of. Many geeks end up in extremely male dominated professions and inadvertently it becomes difficult to view women as equals in the workplace for the one reason that there aren't very many of them and the ones that are there are not peers. I think the reason many successful women end up single is because of the men in their lives. I think, unfortunately, that many guys want to be looked up to, not the other way around and have trouble accepting that their SOs are making more money than them or generally more successful... and society reinforces this stereotype. So, the one piece of advice I would give is to always remember that you and your spouse are equals and that women and men process things differently. Talking to your guy buddies about a girl problem isn't necessarily going to help you a understand a problem you're having any better. And please, don't be someone your wife looks up to-- be someone she's proud of :)
BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
NLP?? I certainly disagree.
I had this stuff inflicted on me during a management course recently. Being the nerdy little science geek I am I went out to investigate it and discovered the same thing that you will discover if you go out and spend some serious time looking through its underlying claims - that is, that it's mostly pulled directly out of someone's plump rectum. I didn't just take my own word for it - I went to the psychology dept at my local university and checked my findings with senior research staff.
That's not to say that learning to listen isn't incredibly important to keeping a marriage going, and it probably is true that approaching that via NLP, bullshit as the specifics are, is still better than not bothering to get the skillset at all. However, it would probably be more healthy to avoid the obfuscatory layer of mumbo-jumbo. NLP selling organisations can be virtually cult-like, and the 'science' has been recognised as more or less valueless since about the 80s.
Posting anonymously because I have a day-job.
Obviously how you approach it depends on the country you live in and the rules, laws and expectations that come from the culture and families you are both marrying into.
The problem with geeky types is that they ofter think there are/should-be rules or tried and tested techniques for doing things. When dealing with other people (apart from the obivousl ones to do with respect and consideration - both ways) there aren't.
For a start, what are your plans for having children? - have you discussed it. How much are your / her family going to be involved? Who's going to give up or continue working? What will you / she do if the partner has an affair - are either of you the jealous type. Don't forget, that people change after marriage (though some, who should: don't). Is the motivation to be married, or to be with the other person (if the latter, why marry at all?). Maybe when you have both sat down and had a full and frank discussion about these, and other topics you will be ready to decide whether ot not to marry.
Finally, remember that when women say "commitment", it frequently means "sacrifice". What are you prepared to give up?
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
At my grandparents' 65th wedding anniversary, my grandfather was asked for the secret to his long marriage. He said, "In any domestic dispute, if it turns out you are right, apologize at once."
I suggest some NLP training
And while you're at it, an astrology course. Knowing someone's zodiac sign really helps in understanding them. /sarcasm
Bollocks. If it is bed time and you are angry, your tiredness is making you even more angry and irrational. If you just go to bed, half the time you will not even remember that you were angry once morning comes. Just go to bed.
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
DON'T DO IT
What?
My experience tells me otherwise. You normally both end up going to bed feeling really shitty, and things get left unsaid. You have a bad night sleep, because you're worried, and wake up the next day feeling crap, thoughts stewing in your head, often blaming the other person. Very often, it's easy to just sweep it under the carpet and things get left unsaid. Overall, things get worse.
Actually, it should be, "Never go to sleep angry." Normally we end up going to bed, and after a few minutes, we're feeling crap, and start discussing rationally.
I'm not saying it's not important to know when to walk away for tempers to cool (that's definitely good advice) but leaving things hanging in the air for any length of time, even for sleep, is not good.
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
Add to this:
It's worked for me and my wife for almost 30 years now.
Good luck!
I don't forget to say those three special words: "I am sorry." I'm amazed at how many people in this world have trouble saying they are sorry even when they know they are clearly wrong. (This applies in all relationships, not just marriage.)
A lot of traditional wisdom is honestly some of the best wisdom. When reading books and whatnot, sure it may often be presented in ways that are dated, but there's still a core of truth to much of it. For example:
1) Never go to bed angry. You might go to bed before you solve the problem, but no matter what it is, no matter how bad it is, you can always find a way to hug your wife, kiss her, and tell her that the two of you will be able to work it out. Going to bed angry breeds resentment.
2) Find a few minutes to connect with your wife every day. Tell her that you love her in a way that's not just a repeat utterance of the phrase (like some people say "Have a good day," at the end of every transaction at the store). Change the word order, change the inflection, make eye contact, and hold her hand - something to indicate that you mean it and that you're not just saying it because it's supposed to be said.
3) Never say the word divorce. Not even once. It doesn't matter how mad you are, that is a word that once spoken you cannot take it back. It represents a fracture that will never heal.
4) Agree with each other that when you're having an argument which gets particularly heated, it is ok for either person to walk out of the room, and the argument can just wait until tempers have cooled down a bit. Personally I've always had a really bad temper, and it's only through substantial effort that I have learned to not allow it to control me. But I have a breaking point, and because I'm working so hard at controlling my temper by this point already, I go from seemingly relatively calm to white hot don't-later-remember-what-happened rage within a few seconds. When I fear I'm approaching that point, I walk away, and my wife lets me go. This is much harder than it seems, because both people are probably very angry, hurt, and frustrated at this point, and it's hard to set that aside for the moment. When you resume the discussion later (usually not very long, just long enough to cool off some), cooler heads almost always make it much smoother. DO NOT use this as a way to avoid an argument - this is meant to protect your marriage; abusing it is a form of dishonesty, and will cripple its ability to act as a safety valve. When you get to that point, the things you say can be so hurtful that they remain long after the original trifle that the argument was about is forgotten. When you walk out on the argument, you must always return to it, and it really should be the person who walked out who initiates the return.
5) Always put your wife first. Her interests always trump yours, just as they would when you're dating. That might sound like an unbalanced relationship, but when it's reciprocal the decision process is each person advocating for the other. It tends to cause much more level-headed discussions, and it reinforces the strength of your bond because you feel as if your spouse genuinely cares about what's best for you (and you're right about that). Women are much more likely than men to do this naturally, so you may have to work at it. Sometimes you don't get to do what you wanted to do, but if it's actually important to you, then she'll see and understand that and will advocate it for you. Often you'll later discover that it wasn't nearly as important to you as you thought it was at the time.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
agreed.
but you can boil it all down to "you can be right, or you can be happy."
i heard a comedian say it, on tv.
my wife hits me when i say it.
i'm nearly 100% certain that it's accurate.
90% of the time when she has a problem she wants to talk about, SHE DOES NOT WANT YOU TO SOLVE IT, she wants to TALK about it! They have to vent and discuss and analyze and most of all gossip about the problems they have. Men just want to get things done and if it dose not work fix it. Spending time talking about a problem without the intent to resolve it goes against everything we are made up of, however that is just the way they work.
Still trying to get this right after 17 years marriage (to the same girl) so good luck! Ooh and if you ask them which they want, they will tell you they want it solved, just don't try and offer them advice on how to accomplish that!
I would add some more -- the big relationship breakers:
#1: Don't cheat. This sounds obvious, but...
#2: Don't think that you could never cheat. Cheating in marriage is incredibly common, and most people who ended up cheating were people who thought that they could never cheat on their spouse. Recognizing that humans are hardwired to be at risk for cheating, that humans are still capable of falling deeply in love with someone other than their spouse during marriage, is the first step toward prevention. The second step is if you develop feelings toward someone else or someone else develops feelings toward you, end contact with that person immediately. The absolute worst thing you can do is to discuss your feelings with them; that will only amplify the feelings, especially if they reciprocate.
#3: Avoid spouse-approved sexual experimentation involving others (X-somes, etc) and so-called "open relationships". They impose too great of a risk for devolving into emotional attachments with the others that can strain the original relationship or unintentionally causing resent by your partner, even when both parties begin by insisting that they're okay with it. Follow the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Stupid.
#4: Stay in tune with your spouse's needs. Absolutely do NOT expect that this will just happen on its own. Talk with your spouse at least once a month about their feelings, whether they're happy with their life, etc. It's an awkward topic to bring up, so most people just avoid it -- but that just leads to people suppressing the things that they're unhappy with. And when they're not having a need met by the relationship, they're at risk for turning elsewhere to get that need met. Don't let these conversations lapse as the relationship goes on; they become more important with time, not less!
#5: Help your spouse stay in touch with your needs. Don't pester, and be very gentle about it, but if you have a long-running issue, bring it up. If it's a sensitive subject, use extra caution when talking about it. However, don't let resentment on some issue fester inside of you.
#6: Money is the root of all evil. In most divorces, money is at least a partial cause. In particular, the issue is debt. Buy a smaller home, fewer cars, take fewer vacations, etc than you think you can afford, keep off of ebay, etc, and you'll relieve a lot of that potential monetary strain by keeping your debt levels low to begin with. The most stressful situation is when you're already deep in debt and you find that you need something expensive, be it replacing an air conditioner, medical bills, or whatnot.
Best of luck!
Aeris Died For Your Sins.