Illinois Bans Social Network Use By Sex Offenders

RobotsDinner writes "Illinois Governor Pat Quinn has signed into law a bill that bans all registered sex offenders from using social networks. '"Obviously, the Internet has been more and more a mechanism for predators to reach out," said Sen. Bill Brady (R-Bloomington), a sponsor of the measure and a governor candidate. "The idea was, if the predator is supposed to be a registered sex offender, they should keep their Internet distance as well as their physical distance."'"

Comments

Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Gorm the DBA]

I see this dying quickly to a challenge on the basis of rights of association and free speech.

Yes, you can ban them from talking to the punishment here is far too harsh to not be challenged.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Darkness404]

Except for the fact that guns are designed to shoot things. Honestly, I believe that disallowing non-violent felons from the right to bear arms or any other constitutional right is wrong, but social networks are simply talking, and honestly, you can't be molested online, despite what some people might think.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Hamilton Publius]

Agreed, but also not all convicted sex offenders are convicted for crimes that imply all of the outrage associated with the title "convicted sex offenders". As many other posters have pointed out, things like two underage people having consensual sex, public urination, texting a naked picture, etc require registation as a sex offender and apparently being banned from popular social networks. The Economist had a great article about this very subject (cover article actually). They pointed our rightly that the situation is unlikely to get better because no politician wants to be branded as being against coming down tough on "sex offenders".

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[betterunixthanunix]

Not when we use the word "rape" to describe a 15 year old consenting to have sex with a 20 year old. You can try to argue semantics and claim that a 15 year old is not competent to give consent, but even so, it is not a violent crime. Rape of the variety that involves a gun pointed at someone's head is a violent crime, and I would not dispute that, but rape that involves no weapon or fighting is just not something I would call "violent."

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[hey!]

I doubt it.

After you've been convicted of a crime, you can certainly have civil rights taken away as a punishment.

But there's something else people might not realize: civil rights under our system can be regulated if there is a compelling public interest in doing so and the regulation is narrowly tailored to serve that interest. My freedom of speech does not entitle me to speak my opinions through a bullhorn at 3AM in a quiet neighborhood. I am required to find other means of expressing opinions. A law against talking at 3AM would be too broad; a law against talking so loud that people inside their houses are unable to ignore it is narrow; it doesn't prevent me from communicating other ways or at other times.

Telling a sex offender he can't communicate with his friends ever again would be unconstitutionally broad. Telling him he can't use social networking sites to do so is a more narrow restriction, what's more there is a rational justification for it. A social networking site provides access to many, many more potential victims than tradtional ways of making and having friends. Not only is there a "law of averages" effect, it's an ideal laboratory in which to hone a script for convincing a victim to put himself at danger. You can be rejected hundreds or even thousands of times, but if you try something different at or near the point of failure, eventually you'll have a diabolically effective approach.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[schon]

Telling him he can't use social networking sites to do so is a more narrow restriction, what's more there is a rational justification for it.

No, the "justification" is most irrational.

Lumping violent repeat rapists in with people who pee in the woods when they think they're alone, and claiming that "it's for the children" is 100% completely and totally emotional, and therefor about as far from rational as you can get.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Shakrai]

but rape that involves no weapon or fighting is just not something I would call "violent."

Bullshit. It's rape if one of the partners doesn't consent to the activity. The fact that the rapist wasn't armed really shouldn't enter into the calculation, except in so far as that they wind up charged with additional weapons offenses in addition to the rape charge.

Mind you, I don't think statutory rape should be regarded in the same manner as what I described above, but to say that rape isn't a violent crime just because no weapon was involved kind of misses the mark, IMHO. You don't regard it as a violent act to have something penetrate your body against your will?

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[betterunixthanunix]

Look, if a person is a child predator and cannot be trusted with their rights, then leave them in prison for the rest of their life. Prisons are not just there as punishments; they are there to keep dangerous people separated from the rest of society. Keep the people who are likely to repeatedly molest children in prison, and you won't have to have politicians try to figure out what a "social network" is.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[betterunixthanunix]

"You don't regard it as a violent act to have something penetrate your body against your will?"

If you:

1. Do not fight, shout, shove, or resist in any way
2. Are not being threatened with a weapon of some sort
3. Were not poisoned or endangered

Then no, it is not violent. Violent crimes involve violence of some sort. A lack of violence makes the crime non-violent. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and it seems pretty fair to set the threshold of a "violent crime" to be "violence was involved." This is not to say that it is perfectly fine to rape someone -- violence is not the sole factor in determining whether or not something was wrong -- but I absolutely would separate a violent rape from a non-violent rape.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Shakrai]

And the right to bear them is guranteed by the 2nd amendment to the constitution.

Part of which (the Constitution) says:

"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

Thus it seems that for better or worse the Constitution has a provision that allows for the deprivation of the liberties of convicted criminals who have been accorded due process of law. If we can take away their right to vote and keep and bear arms, why not the "right" to use Facebook?

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Shakrai]

Do not fight, shout, shove, or resist in any way

So we can only call a crime violent if the victim is willing to resist in same manner?

Are not being threatened with a weapon of some sort

Weapons are not limited to guns and knives. If you were a 100 pound female facing a 200+ pound male who has three or more times your muscle mass are you seriously going to argue that it shouldn't be considered a violent crime just because he didn't happen to have a firearm, knife or some other technological piece of weaponry?

Were not poisoned or endangered

Being raped is endangerment. Ever heard of STDs? Ever heard of the ones that can't be cured and which are eventually fatal? There's a reason why most states (even the liberal blue ones) allow for the use of deadly force when confronted with a would-be rapist. A rapist is arguably every bit as dangerous as a loaded gun pointed at your head or knife at your throat.

Violent crimes involve violence of some sort

I would argue that having your body penetrated against your will is an inherently violent act.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[mftb]

It's rape if one of the partners doesn't consent or if it's a situation in which statutory rape applies, of which the situation described betterunixthanunix's post is a type.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Utini420]

To my eye, this would be akin to the distinction between "assault," and "aggravated assault with a deadly weapon." Granted, both of my examples are violent, but I was trying to show a place where the law does in fact draw such fine distinctions. As opposed to rape, which is sort of the only word the law recognizes in terms of nonconsentual sex acts, with no grades of offense, at least as far as I know. Shoot, even flat-out killing someone has grades of offense, from accidental manslaughter through premeditated murder. Not that a rape is ever really accidental, but it would be interesting if it wasn't a binary legal switch.

Never mind all the crap that will get you on the sex offender list all by yourself without ever touching another soul, like getting caught pissing in an alley way.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[ground.zero.612]

"You don't regard it as a violent act to have something penetrate your body against your will?" If you:

1. Do not fight, shout, shove, or resist in any way
2. Are not being threatened with a weapon of some sort
3. Were not poisoned or endangered

Then no, it is not violent. Violent crimes involve violence of some sort. A lack of violence makes the crime non-violent. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and it seems pretty fair to set the threshold of a "violent crime" to be "violence was involved." This is not to say that it is perfectly fine to rape someone -- violence is not the sole factor in determining whether or not something was wrong -- but I absolutely would separate a violent rape from a non-violent rape.

Wanna go camping?

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[QuantumRiff]

My favorite. Oral sex and Sodomy used to be considered illegal in some states. Some people are on the list because of that, even though those laws are all gone now, they were on the list, and were grandfathered in. (don't want to look soft on child molesters, do we)..

Not to mention, the rules keep changing, after their conviction, which seems a little unfair.. Think of the republicans the bitch that congress keeps changing the rules for accepting TARP money.. yet many of them are all for this...

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[plague3106]

Due process of law does not mean passing laws further punishing people that have already paid their debt to society. They took the time to codify that you can't be arrested for doing what was legal yesterday but made illegal today, I fail to see how this is really a different concept.

Would you argue in favor of a law that executes anyone convicted of shoplifting, ever in their life? Do you honestly consider that due process?

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[ground.zero.612]

but rape that involves no weapon or fighting is just not something I would call "violent."

Bullshit. It's rape if one of the partners doesn't consent to the activity. The fact that the rapist wasn't armed really shouldn't enter into the calculation, except in so far as that they wind up charged with additional weapons offenses in addition to the rape charge.

Mind you, I don't think statutory rape should be regarded in the same manner as what I described above, but to say that rape isn't a violent crime just because no weapon was involved kind of misses the mark, IMHO. You don't regard it as a violent act to have something penetrate your body against your will?

I think we have some pretty sociopathic mods when a post like this is modded Troll. The simple fact is, being subjugated against your will is a form of violence. The definitions of the words rape and violence imply this.

Go look it up. In the mean time, and as usual, go fuck yourself.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[BobMcD]

Being raped is endangerment. Ever heard of STDs? Ever heard of the ones that can't be cured and which are eventually fatal? There's a reason why most states (even the liberal blue ones) allow for the use of deadly force when confronted with a would-be rapist. A rapist is arguably every bit as dangerous as a loaded gun pointed at your head or knife at your throat.

By this logic (STDs exist) you are also endangered by consensual sex. So do states also have laws permitting the execution of anyone caught copulating, for their own protection? That logic means that your boyfriend is every bit as dangerous as a loaded gun pointed... blah. I can't even finish typing it.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[rjstanford]

Although ironically, having someone known to go around beating women into submission to brutally murder them being restricted from social networking sites has not even been proposed.

How reasonable is this again?

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[phoenix321]

While the definition of "firearm" is pretty straightforward to include a deadly weapon that can kill over a distance of more than a kilometer, I seriously doubt that you, me or anyone else could draw a solid, non-disputable boundary around "social networks".

Is a hotmail account serving social functions? I think so.
Is it connected to a network of some sort? Well, yes.
Is it a "social network"?

What about a Slashdot account?
What about Adult-Friend-Finder and its cousins?
What about platforms like World of Warcraft?

What of that is a "social network" and why do we treat them differently than a physical, brick-and-mortar tennis club? Or a mobile phone? There are SMS dating services for them as well.

Do we ban sex offenders from there, too? Do we cut off Internet access for sex offenders?

The way I see it, sex offenders are the lowest hanging target for politicians to present themselves to be "tough-on-crime". Nobody can say anything good about sex offenders so we can tax, imprison and legalize them to hell - can we?

No matter if they're on the sex offender list for petty "crimes" they did in college or heavy violent rape, they should do their time in prison, locked up for as long as the judge ordered and then they're free humans again.

Cases with Capital Punishment don't need to be discussed here, but other than that the sentence should fit the crime and could carry several decades of imprisonment in extreme cases. After that, they're either still dangerous - and we could as well throw away the key - or they're free humans again.

Either we regard them as humans or we don't. We can do either, but it tells a lot about us "innocents" as well.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Shakrai]

Suppose someone is suicidal and willingly takes a gunshot to the head

I highlighted the difference between your strawman and the crime of rape.

You cannot say that it is violent just because the victim did not want it to happen.

In the case of rape, yes I can. Go talk to a rape victim and then try to tell us that it isn't a violent action. Try to convince us that the action of having your body violated is not an inherently violent act.

I would personally resist a rapist with my last ounce of strength. The fact that some people might be too scared to do so does not reduce the violence of the encounter in any way, shape or form.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Fulcrum of Evil]

It's rape if one of the partners doesn't consent to the activity.

We're talking about statutory rape here. Please try to keep up.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Shakrai]

This is also true outside of rape.

The person outside of the rape agreed to the encounter. There was nothing stopping them from making an informed decision about the encounter and taking steps to protect themselves. Of course not everybody makes an informed decision but that's a separate discussion.

The rape victim has had this choice taken from them. That's why it's different. I should think this would be obvious to anyone who was interested in paying attention to my point and not nitpicking it to death with comparisons with consensual activity.

I can't believe that I'm receiving troll mods for arguing that rape is a violent action. WTF is wrong with you people?

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[betterunixthanunix]

"the difference between your strawman and the crime of rape."

Let me repeat myself: Is it not violent to be shot in the head just because you are willing to be shot? This is not a strawman; you said that rape must be violent because the victim is not willing to have sex, and I am asking if, by that logic, a being shot is only violent when you are not willing to be shot.

"I would personally resist a rapist with my last ounce of strength. The fact that some people might be too scared to do so does not reduce the violence of the encounter in any way, shape or form."

Except, of course, that we consider it to be "rape" when a 15 year old has sex with a 25 year old, even when the 15 year old was not forced to do so. The fact that you automatically associate "rape" with something that involves fear, trauma, or a lack of willingness only demonstrates that statutory rape is a misnomer and that we need to find a new name for the crime.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Shakrai]

The fact that you automatically associate "rape" with something that involves fear, trauma, or a lack of willingness only demonstrates that statutory rape is a misnomer and that we need to find a new name for the crime.

The fact that you couldn't be bothered to read the part of my original post wherein I said "Mind you, I don't think statutory rape should be regarded in the same manner as what I described above" only demonstrates that you aren't interested in listening to my point or acknowledging the fact that I'm not talking about statutory rape.

I hope for your sake that you are never unfortunate enough to be a victim of this crime yourself or know someone who is. It's a thoroughly vile, disgusting and violent act and other than murder I'm hard pressed to think of a worse crime that can be committed against the person.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Chris Burke]

No, sorry. Your example about statutory rape where the 'victim' is in fact consenting is an example of a non-violent crime.

Rape against a non-consenting victim is sexual violence. There is violence inherent in the act of violating someone's body. Think for two seconds about what is actually entailed and this should be obvious.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[jmorris42]

> Should sites like Facebook make an attempt to restrict access of registered sex offenders from certain
> subsets of the population? Perhaps, depending on the crime, what the judge had to say about it, parole board, etc.

Think you are close to the answer. Social networking sites that allow minors access should have a check box for members to mark that they are under court orders not to interract with minors. When checked minors just don't see that member at all.

If a couple of the big sites implemented such a feature it would then be reasonable to require registered offenders to only use those sites and have it set up such that their parole officer can monitor that they are indeed properly flagged.

Extended a little more it would be just as easy to have adults see a small warning icon to note the person they are interacting with is a known offender but it would be all too easy for such a thing to be abused by the same unholy coalition of do gooder Democrats and bible thumping Republicans to the point the warning would be ignored by overuse...

But really, longterm there is a better solution. If somebody can't be trusted not to reoffend don't let their ass out of the joint.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[piojo]

I don't have a better solution, but just to play devil's advocate, isn't your proposition "cruel and unusual punishment"? Specifically, it's disproportionate to the crime. You might as well just kill them. (I know some people would be fine with that, actually.)

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[bky1701]

Why is such a person not in jail, where a law is not needed to prevent them from using social networking sites?

If you are out of jail, you have served your dues to society and (in theory) seen the error of your ways. Tacking on little extras that you can never rid of, even if you were to become the next Mother Teresa, is bordering on cruel. As it stands, there is no way for a sex offender to ever be redeemed in the eyes of the legal system, which in turn forces them to become social pariahs. They are lost to the world, and the world to them, because of one action which may have taken place 40 years ago. Sexual offenses have become modern-day witch trials. Banning them from social networking sites is laughable considering how things already are.

If that's your idea of justice, I think you're a very sad person. I would not even advocate that for crimes such as murder.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[drinkypoo]

Reasonable? If your goal is to win the love of your irrational constituents, then persecuting "sex offenders" (which often includes public urinators and the like, and in any case is highly subject to selective arrest like everything else) who are an easy target (no one loves to speak up in their defense) makes a great deal of sense.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Maxo-Texas]

And if one of the participants looks 21, is in a bar that serves alchohol, had a legitimate looking id, and is actually 17-- then what?

It's happened recently -- in the news in the last couple months.

The guy was screwed since he was over 19. Statutory rape.

---

Even more horrifically, a bud of mine went to new orleans.
Had sex with a girl AND her boyfriend in a three way.

Turns out she had had a drink--- which apparently means she wasn't legally competent to consent in louisiana. Even tho she was probably blowing a .04 or less.

He finally got out of it. After losing his job, spending a lot of money on a lawyer.

I'd have fallen for the same thing- she was pretty and enthusiastic the night it happened apparently.

I will probably never go to New Orleans again in my life. Or I'll bring a breathalyzer. :-)

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Not quite: you have the right to say what you like, but doing it with a bullhorn at 3am is disturbing the peace (not related to content), so the cops can come out and make you stop.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Big Jojo]

I sort of agree with the sentiment that releasing someone may be the problem ... but how can you know when/if it will be? There's a really basic problem with the so-called "justice" system in the US, in that it no longer attempts to rehabilitate people. And punishments are so late (I read yesterday about a trial finishing FOUR YEARS after the crime!!) and disproportionate to the offence (on top of crap like "big" drug players getting sweet deals while "small" ones get their lives ruined), that expecting sanity is unreasonable.

Prisons are not just there as punishments; they are there to keep dangerous people separated from the rest of society.

That's a serious misconception. Today, they're fundamentally about punishment ("sit in this overcrowded and dangerous hellhole for a few years"), and secondarily about segregation ... and in effect, also secondarily training about how to become a repeat offender.

Of course, if prisons had effective rehabiliation efforts then the repeat-offender training would become a non-issue. And there'd be a lot less of this "throw everyone (but mostly minorities) in prison, and never let them out" crap. But the prison-industrial complex wouldn't be so profitable then either.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[hairyfeet]

But I have a friend in state police that says they are getting few if any actual child molesters through social networks. What they are catching there is what he calls the 'social retards' and says it is quite easy to spot the difference. The social retards will talk a good game online, but never meet anybody. When you raid their place there is CP alright, along with beastiality and brown and golden showers, and B&D/S&M, etc. You look into their background and most have gone out of their way to not have contact with anyone, kids and adults alike.

Contrast this with the child predator, which is says is actually really damned hard to catch online. They aren't trolling online for kids, because they are coaching youth groups, being active in the church, anything that will get them closer to their prey. He says he has seen plenty over the years that will go so far as marry a woman just to get at her kids. He says they know when they catch one of these guys as they often trade highly encrypted DVDs through the mail with other predators.

So despite the bogeymen stories according to him the hardcore child predators abandoned the net awhile back. There is just so much easier prey in their own neighborhoods, which is how they eventually get caught. I would argue that the social retards could probably be rehabilitated (I actually met one once. The sad little creature would probably have screamed if anybody actually touched him) and that the hardcores are gonna have to be caught the old fashioned way, with good police work. And as someone who had a fed in the past try to entrap him on IRC back in the day (I finally had to get ugly and tell them if they didn't quit talking dirty on a Windows repair channel they would get permanently banned) I find their methods on "catching" anyone on social networks dubious at best.

The whole thing IMHO went south when we turned rapist into "sex offender". After all, everyone knew what a rapist was and had a definition that was pretty consistent. With sex offender it could be anything from pissing on a bush on up. Right now the whole "child molester" bogeyman has gotten to be about as insane as the Red Scare of the 50s. Just see McMartin and Little Rascals day care for examples of normal people acting insane because the word 'child molester" was uttered.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[icebrain]

The biggest problem in my mind is that the term "sex offender" is applied far too broadly. See, when most people hear that term, they think of the sociopath who kidnaps little girls, rapes them to death, and leaves their bodies in ditches. Or the creepy old uncle who touches his young nieces and nephews. For such people, these laws aren't harsh enough.

However, a lot of "sex offenders" aren't anything like this. They earned that dubious distinction by, say, pissing in the bushes while drunk ("public indecency"), sending half-naked pictures of themselves to their highschool sweethearts while under 18 ("making and distributing child pornography"), or having sex with said similarly-aged sweetheart ("statutory rape"). It's one thing to put harsh measures on the child molesters in the first paragraph, but do the offenses I just mentioned really merit all this? Does somebody really deserve to be stripped of his rights to vote, own a gun, live where he wants, and live in privacy just because he took a piss in the bushes one day? Should stupid horny teenagers be labeled as rapists the rest of their lives for screwing on prom night and getting caught?

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Runaway1956]

I have to weigh in here. I'm old enough, I've been privy to the details of a number of "encounters" that later went to court. I've had freinds, both male and female freinds involved.

First, let's ground ourselves in reality. In Africa, today, (semi)organized gangs of men prowl the villages searching out female victims. Not only are the victims used and abused violently, but they are often cut and mutilated intentionally in an attempt to sterilize and degrade them. If the women survive, so be it, if not, tough. Victims range in age from infants to very old women.

Compare common cases in the civilized world to the actions of those thugs in Africa. I could sit in judgement of those savages, and uniformly award the death sentence from now until hell freezes over.

Here, in America, statutory rape has been abused to the point, that if a boy and girl have been dating for months, and he celebrates his 18th birthday before she does, he can be charged with rape, no matter that she consents, or maybe even initiates an evening of sex. THAT is a case of being raped by the system.

There is a wide range of "rapes" in between the two extreme ends that I've just painted. And, anyone who believes that our court system is adequate for judging all of them has a few screws loose, IMHO.

Real violent, brutal rape is simply not punished severely enough. The man who can use his fists to pummel a resistant woman into submission, should NEVER walk the streets again. In fact, I can justify the death penalty for many of them.

On the other hand, having a casual relationship with someone met in a bar, only to be charged with "rape" later, because she has some "multiple personality disorder" is about as bogus as things can get. (I've been close to two cases like that.)

I don't have any numbers to offer, but at a rough guess, I would say that nearly 10% of "offenders" in this country never should have gone to trial. Prosecuting attorneys seldom care about "justice", it's all about numbers.

The laws regarding registered sex offenders do not go nearly far enough to differentiate between the classes of offenders. As already stated, the worst offenders shouldn't even see sunlight, but there they are, walking the streets. Others, if they really DID do anything wrong, should serve a year of probation and be forgotten - they are no threat to anyone.

Laws like the one in TFA don't do ANYTHING to see that justice is done. They only create beauracratic hoops for a captive audience to jump through. They create jobs for people who get off on minding other people's business. They contribute to an Owellian society, something we are moving toward just as quickly as possible.

Personally I can't see any justice in a law like this. Dangerous people belong in a dungeon or a coffin, and non-dangerous people need their rights restored.

The system doesn't work, and laws like these will only make the system worse.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[StrategicIrony]

One of the big issues is that sex offender registries have been challenged in the past and were held enforceable under the premise that they are SOLELY FOR NOTIFICATION PURPOSES. The supreme court specifically said that they are not punitive in nature and therefore are allowed, but cannot be applied in a punitive way.

I really don't see how this will fly.

There are two classes of "convicts" that are still under the guise of the justice system. Those incarcerated and those on parole/probation.

The third category of "released, but registered" doesn't really exist and won't withstand a constitutional challenge. The Supreme Court narrowly allowed public registries, purely on the grounds that it was "informational".

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[J'raxis]

Yup. And I'd bet when that law was passed, people who cried "slippery slope" were dismissed as whackos. Now look where we are.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Delkster]

Public urination? Sex offender? WTF?

I find urinating in public generally more or less offensive (much more so if it's done at a random corner on the street, not really so much in a concealed bush), and would really like the drunked idiots in the city to stop doing that on the street (yeah, it happens), but seriously, if it counts as a felony that you have to register as a sex offender for... someone has a rather weird idea of a sexual act.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Delkster]

What about a Slashdot account?

Clearly, Slashdot counts as an antisocial network.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[mdwh2]

Just because it makes sense to have an objective line for age of consent, doesn't mean that everyone who breaks that law should be treated the same.

Or maybe we should put people on these lists for littering too?

I could play your game in reverse: if it's the 5 year difference that makes it not okay, what about a 17 year old and a 22 year old? What about an 18 year old and a 23 year old? What about a 40 year old and a 45 year old? Are they all not okay?

Obviously, in either case, it's not as black and white as 5 year differences.

And if you leave it up to judges, then what do you do with a judge who thinks it is okay for Old Men to marry young girls in those polygamy cults?

Marriage is a separate issue - it's a legal contract, one that should be restricted to adults. Indeed, on that note I find it mad that here in the UK, at 16 people can, as well as simply having sex, enter into a lifelong legal commitment. Yet if a 17 year old takes a naughty photo of him or herself, or his or her partner, they're guilty of possessing "child" porn.

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Shakrai]

Here, in America, statutory rape has been abused to the point, that if a boy and girl have been dating for months, and he celebrates his 18th birthday before she does, he can be charged with rape, no matter that she consents, or maybe even initiates an evening of sex. THAT is a case of being raped by the system.

I don't disagree. Sane "age of consent" laws have provisions like my state -- the age of consent of 17 but there's also a four years age difference provision (i.e: a 19 year old can have sex with a 15 year old). I'm not so sure I think that a 19 year old needs to be having sex with a 15 year old but at least the law allows for the high school lovers scenario without sending someone to prison because he or she turned 18 a few weeks before their partner.

Real violent, brutal rape is simply not punished severely enough. The man who can use his fists to pummel a resistant woman into submission, should NEVER walk the streets again. In fact, I can justify the death penalty for many of them.

I would have no problem with the death penalty being applied for these scumbags. I would also have no problem if the woman had blown him away before he managed to get that far. Someone willing to do that deserves nothing more than a quick exit from this world and a face to face meeting with whichever god or gods he believes in.

As already stated, the worst offenders shouldn't even see sunlight, but there they are, walking the streets. Others, if they really DID do anything wrong, should serve a year of probation and be forgotten - they are no threat to anyone.

I completely agree. Someone who molests children or beats the shit out of women and rapes them should never see the light of day. Someone who wound up taking an underage chick home who got into the bar with a fake id and was downing shots of vodka should be charged with stupidity and given a slap on the wrist.

The sex offender registries bother me because they negate the concept of paying your debt to society. If someone is so dangerous that I need to know when he moves into my neighborhood why the hell is he getting out of prison in the first place? If he doesn't that dangerous then why do you need to tell me about him?

Re:Incoming 1st Amendment Challenge

[Knara]

Except that many accused "rapes" go like this:

Guy 1: Hey, Dude, can I have $5

Guy 2: (into his third or fourth beer) Sure dude, here's $10

Guy 1: Awesome!

[3 days later]

Guy 2: What the fuck, Guy 1 stole $10 from me! I need to go and file a police report!

Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[Cyner]

I took a leak outside the bar one night when I was drunk and now I'm banned from Facebook for life.

What's wrong with this picture?

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[fearanddread]

what's wrong is a society that treats public urination as a sex crime.

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[Anonymous Coward]

you seem to want to use facebook

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

I took a leak outside the bar one night when I was drunk and now I'm banned from Facebook for life.

You say that like it is a bad thing.

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[gad_zuki!]

>What's wrong with this picture?

Other than urination in public isnt a sex crime in Illinois?

I live in Illinois and have done searches on sex offenders near me, and none of the charges are remotely comparable to your example. Lots of sexual assualt on a minor. A lot. At least half of them and Im not talking 19 yo guy with 17 year girl, but someone with a 10 or 11 year old. Illinois lists the ages of the victims. The rest are regular sexual assault and a few rape charges here and there.

While I have mixed feelings about sexual registrtion in general, I do not see it as the weirdo legal dystopia you suggest it is, at least in my state.

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[jDeepbeep]

I took a leak outside the bar one night when I was drunk and now I'm banned from Facebook for life.

What's wrong with this picture?

That's not the worst bit. You would be banned from Twitter too. At that point, there is little left to live for.

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[gad_zuki!]

If they are not registered on the list then this law does not affect them. Yes, the web-based list shows all the registered offenders.

>The last thing I see as a major issue here is that they will attack the ones we have no problem depriving of their rights first, and when we let them do it to them they will eventually move on to us.

That's the classic slippery slope argument and the classic response is "Not all things lead to a slippery slope." For instance there's no national register of people who drive badly and if you cheat on your husband you dont need to wear a scarlet 'A.' Someone could argue that the former would help society. Some states force new drivers to have a "new driver" sticker in their car for a few months after getting a license, so its not unheard of, but we're not seeing slipperly slope effects like you suggest we might.

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[Anonymous Coward]

A murderer, however. He's free to use Facebook all he wants to track down new victims...

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[hoggoth]

I wonder if '4chan' is considered a social network.
Banned from 4chan for being a Sex Offender.
That would be a problem because I think that is also one of the requirements for membership in 4chan.

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[ArsonSmith]

Funny, my insurance company hit a registry that had my driving record.

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[CorporateSuit]

I took a leak outside the bar one night when I was drunk and now I'm banned from Facebook for life.

What's wrong with this picture?

The government shouldn't reward public urination?

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[rhathar]

It's true. I saw a boob once and now I want to see them all the time.

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[TheGratefulNet]

the law has to be made so that even if YOU get caught up in it, its fair.

this isn't at all a fair law. its the scarlet letter reborn.

very unamerican in its very concept. this is just grandstanding from politicians but sadly, its a 'third rail' that you cannot touch.

until we remove third-rails from our laws (or 'sacred cows' if you prefer) we will continue to be a poster-country of how NOT to keep its citizens 'safe'.

there is no safety in this; its pure emotive vote-getting. and its sickening.

I can only hope anyone who passes such laws ends up (by mistake, oh my!) on the other side, somehow. that would be sweet justice.

laws like this are too easy to abuse and once someone's life is ruined, its ruined for good. THIS is a really dangerous law. I dare say, it does more damage than it tries to 'correct'.

if someone is unsafe for society, keep them out of society. this 'law' ends up being the worst possible of both scenarios.

in NH, the state slogan is 'live free or die'. I do wonder, if any one of us got caught up, by mistake, in this kind of tanglement, would we want to continue to live out our lives under such a harsh magnifying glass? if you KNEW you were falsely accused? this probably does end badly for a lot of people. I don't think our 'lawmkers' even think one minute about it, either. they simply want VOTES.

what a shame this country has become.

Re:Punishment doesn't fit the Crime

[StikyPad]

That's the other problem with this law: What defines a social networking site? Just about any website that allows profiles and posts could be considered a social networking site. And is it just limited to websites? What about IRC or chat rooms? It wouldn't be hard to consider *any* network activity to be social in nature, ergo social networking, and they're effectively banned from the internet. If the internet is the important tool that politicians make it out to be -- requisite for education and competition in the modern and post-modern world -- then that should be a serious consideration.

Social Networks?

[homer_s]

And who decides what a "social network" is?

I wonder when we'll receive calls for govt. regulation of websites to keep it safe for children.

Re:Social Networks?

[bky1701]

October 1998.

Re:Social Networks?

[blamanj]

This is key. Everything is becoming social. Blogging, which might one have been viewed as publishing, is now social because Google has tied FriendConnect to Blogger. Legitimate job seeking tools like LinkedIn are very heavily social-network oriented.

This is stupid for a variety of reaons, but in a few years it will be the equivalent of banning them from using the Internet.

Re:Social Networks?

[jittles]

I don't think they are going to actively pursue people for surfing these social networks. Instead, once you get arrested they will look through your browser history and nail you. Or, if you're on parole/probation and they are looking for a violation, they'll get a warrant for your browser history.

This is stupid

[the_humeister]

Either they've served their debt to society or keep them in jail. This half-assed "you're out of jail but you can only do X" is ridiculous.

Re:This is stupid

[betterunixthanunix]

If they are so likely to commit their crime again, then keep them in jail. Why on earth would you allow someone out of jail if you expected them to commit their crime over and over again?

Re:This is stupid

[Monkeedude1212]

If they aren't ready to be re-introduced into society then they shouldn't be, it should be as simple as that.

The idea was, if the predator is supposed to be a registered sex offender, they should keep their Internet distance as well as their physical distance

You thats where the problem lies - you know why people go to prison? To keep their Physical distance away from everybody. If they aren't able to handle that reimmersion they shouldn't be. If the guy can live on his own he should sure as hell be able to surf the net alone.

Re:This is stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the rates are not "unfortunately high" compared to other offenders. Any serious examination of re-arrest rates for sex offenders will show that the rates are actually lower.

See the Bureau of Justice Statistics, for example (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/rsorp94pr.htm)

Re:This is stupid

[schon]

The re-offense rate for sex offenders is unfortunately high.

[citation needed]

I would like to point out that someone has posted recidivism rate for sex offenders is 5%, whereas the recidivism rate for *all* violent offence is 62%.

Please either cite your source, or admit that you are wrong.

Re:This is stupid

[Jeremi]

Why on earth would you allow someone out of jail if you expected them to commit their crime over and over again?

Well, one reason is because there is the concept of "due process of law" in this country, which makes it illegal to hold people indefinitely just because they worry you. People are convicted and sentenced for their crimes, and once they have served their sentence they have the right to go free. (*)

You could argue that sex offenders should have longer sentences, but you really don't want to give policement/guards/politicians the ability to keep prisoners in jail indefinitely just because they don't like them. That kind of power quickly leads to the kind of abuses that habeus corpus was made to prevent.

(*) In theory, anyway -- in practice, it seems you can get around this by calling the person a terrorist, at which point the person's civil rights magically evaporate. But just because the application of law is currently f*cked up doesn't mean we should try to make the situation worse.

Re:This is stupid

[betterunixthanunix]

"You could argue that sex offenders should have longer sentences"

Bingo. If sex offenders are so likely to recommit their crimes, then give them life sentences. I did not mean to say that they should be held longer than their sentence; they should have their rights restored after their sentence is served, and not live in fear of being arrested again just because they use a computer. If we are not willing to give sex offenders life sentences, then we should not start complaining about them logging on to Facebook when they get out of prison.

Re:This is stupid

[glwtta]

This is why, despite my strong civil liberties leanings, I support a sex offenders register and other measures to keep an eye on them.

You're advocating punishing people for crimes hey might commit - I think you have a very confused notion of "strong civil liberties leanings".

Re:This is stupid

[elrous0]

Probation doesn't last for the rest of your life.

Re:This is stupid

[Wrath0fb0b]

Either they've served their debt to society or keep them in jail. This half-assed "you're out of jail but you can only do X" is ridiculous.

"Served his debt to society" is not coterminous with "does not pose a threat to the rights of others -- we would failing our duty to preserve those rights if we did not take reasonable steps to reduce the risk to society as we attempt to reintegrate prisoners into society. We know that some will succeed and some will fall back into crime but, of course, we don't know how it will play out in each individual case. We could keep them all in jail a lot longer because some are still dangerous or we could let them out under reasonable restrictions. The latter seems much more humane, IMO.

The most obvious is the law prohibiting convicted felons from owning firearms. On /. it's easy for people to insist that felons should have all their rights back but I can just imagine how the public would react to a politician that proposes restoring gun-ownership rights for convicts.

Another fairly clear-cut case are the provisions banning those convicted of certain white-collar financial crimes from taking a position of trust (aka, being accountants) over others' money. It seems reasonable that once you are convicted of embezzling your clients'/company's money, that line of work is off limits.

[ IMO, the instant case turns on how narrowly or widely the term "sex offender" is construed -- if it really means "violent people that prety on children" versus "had sex while he was 17 and she was 16". In the former case, I'm not going to lose sleep over child rapists not browsing facebook -- in the latter, well, that just goes to show how retarded our sex-crime laws can be. ]

Re:This is stupid

[tepples]

How do you feel about probation then?

How does the punishment of lifetime probation fit the crime of peeing in the woods?

Re:This is stupid

[LatencyKills]

This is sort of tangiential to one of my pet peeves about sex offender laws: Anyone ever wonder why there isn't a murderer registry? Think of the children doesn't extend to killing them (or anyone for that matter, child or adult), only touching them?

Re:This is stupid

[arth1]

Indeed. A young girl living next door to a former sex offender has a statistically far higher risk of being raped by her father than the sex offender. Should we then ban all fathers from contact with their children?
I mean, think of the children!

Re:This is stupid

[Fulcrum of Evil]

You could argue that the rearrest is as high as it is because we make it impossible to live outside, what with all the imposed restrictions. The recidivism rate is fairly low when looking at sex offenses - around 5%.

Re:This is stupid

[StikyPad]

The most obvious is the law prohibiting convicted felons from owning firearms. On /. it's easy for people to insist that felons should have all their rights back but I can just imagine how the public would react to a politician that proposes restoring gun-ownership rights for convicts.

The problem with politics is that it only attracts politicians. Politicians aren't in the business of being leaders -- they're in the business of getting elected, and the best way to do that is to mirror the sentiment of their electorate, no matter how uninformed or illogical that sentiment might be. In other words, the fact that a politician would never say something is absolutely no reason to believe it's the wrong thing to say.

I've seen no evidence to suggest that disallowing firearm ownership for felons either effectively restricts access or decreases recidivism, and an ineffective law is worse than no law at all. It's just wishful thinking, and wishing never solves real problems. That a politician would never admit this, let alone campaign on it, only means that it is the public's mind that needs to be changed, not the politicians'.

Re:This is stupid

[shutdown -p now]

That's your assertion but I think a white collar criminal that is banned for life from being an accountant after his 10 year fraud sentence definitely shouldn't remain in prison. He's not a danger to anyone so that's $40k/yr wasted on keeping some middle aged guy behind bars just because, if he got out, he might defraud someone again?

You really think it's more humane to keep him in jail for another 20 years?!

You completely misunderstood me. I think that being banned for life is, on its own, unreasonable, as in "too harsh". I'm not talking about 20 years of jail instead - where'd you get that? I'm just saying: why should a guy still be forbidden from using social networks if he did something 20 years ago? That's just stupid, and cruel and pointless.

And if he really is potentially dangerous after that long, then he should remain in prison.

What is a "sex offender" anyway?

[Manip]

"At least five states require registration for people who visit prostitutes, 29 require it for consensual sex between young teenagers and 32 require it for indecent exposure. Some prosecutors are now stretching the definition of âoedistributing child pornographyâ to include teens who text half-naked photos of themselves to their friends. For example, Janet Allison was found guilty of being âoeparty to the crime of child molestationâ because she let her 15-year-old daughter have sex with a boyfriend. The young couple later married."

I'm glad you're banning all 600,000 people 2/3rds of which are said to be "no danger" according to a state's own review board.

Re:What is a "sex offender" anyway?

[dbet]

Simply: a sex offender is someone who 1) has sex in a way that the majority thinks ought not to be taking place, or 2) makes it possible for a child to see another human naked.

And as crazy as the U.S. is, it's not even in the same league as say, anywhere Muslims are in charge.

Why are sex offenders treated worse than murderers

[Rosyna]

People labeled "sex offenders" (could be from mooning someone, urinating in an alley, having manga, and other little things) are treated worse than murderers in the US. Murderers don't have to tell the community after serving time that they killed someone. They can rent apartments almost anywhere. There's no online database anyone can browse to find murderers living in your area...

It saddens me as, basically, it's better for the perp's punishment to rape a child, kill them, and dispose of the body than just raping them.

Re:how is this enforceable?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

It isn't; but it should net some votes, and provide another charge to stack, next time the DA needs to throw the book at some unsympathetic perp.

Re:Are there levels of Sexual Offence???

[Rosyna]

What happens when a 18 year-old is convicted for statutory rape of his 17 year-old girlfriend when they have consensual sex? He's now most likely a registered sex offender. Is he banned from Facebook?

Yes. He's labeled a sex offender for life, can't get a job, can't find a place to live and is banned from social networks like facebook.

A scarlet letter wasn't enough?

[jmerlin]

What is this?

Sure, there are violent sex offenders who generally stay in prison more often than not, but there those who did something like sleep with their girlfriend of 2 years whose parents pressed charges because she was 17, and 3 months to 18, and that guy who may end up marrying her, is now a "sex offender" for the rest of his life.

Warranted, yes, SOME people use social websites for predation (and too many), but note that I used the term 'people.' It's not just sex offenders, but I would hazard a guess that not even MOST sex offenders using these services use them for predation. Such a ban is incredibly naive and ignorant, and an outright abuse of power.

Let's apply this same logic. We don't label average citizens who have committed some crime (violent even) that landed them in jail the way we do sex offenders. Say we realized too much violent and organized crime was happening as a result of using socializing websites. Now we want to ban anyone who may have a history of violent crimes or pretty much any crimes from using these to stifle the possibility of having them organize future crimes. So how can we target all of these individuals with such anonymity online? Well hell, we can't really, so let's just ban the website in our state. Done.

I'd put my bet on it that most people who are using social networking sites like this to predate victims for sexual harassment or other sex crimes aren't even currently labeled sex offenders. Are there any stats out there for how many new sex offenders have been entered as a result of crimes initiated via contact through a social networking site? I'd imagine this would be quite a large number per year, so now do we need to hire some precogs to detect these criminals BEFORE they do the crime and ban them from using the service?

This is just silly. They get it bad enough getting raped in prison and labeled on everyone's overlaid sex-offender-tracker GPS etc etc, regardless of what sexual offense they committed, they served their time, why should we now add another step to further punish them?

Perhaps this is just another case of where the actions of a few individuals ruin things for everyone?

America's unjust sex laws

[Mr_Blank]

From the most recent Economist

America's unjust sex laws

Aug 6th 2009
From The Economist print edition
An ever harsher approach is doing more harm than good, but it is being copied around the world

IT IS an oft-told story, but it does not get any less horrific on repetition. Fifteen years ago, a paedophile enticed seven-year-old Megan Kanka into his home in New Jersey by offering to show her a puppy. He then raped her, killed her and dumped her body in a nearby park. The murderer, who had recently moved into the house across the street from his victim, had twice before been convicted of sexually assaulting a child. Yet Megan's parents had no idea of this. Had they known he was a sex offender, they would have told their daughter to stay away from him.

In their grief, the parents started a petition, demanding that families should be told if a sexual predator moves nearby. Hundreds of thousands signed it. In no time at all, lawmakers in New Jersey granted their wish. And before long, "Megan's laws" had spread to every American state.

America's sex-offender laws are the strictest of any rich democracy. Convicted rapists and child-molesters are given long prison sentences. When released, they are put on sex-offender registries. In most states this means that their names, photographs and addresses are published online, so that fearful parents can check whether a child-molester lives nearby. Under the Adam Walsh Act of 2006, another law named after a murdered child, all states will soon be obliged to make their sex-offender registries public. Such rules are extremely popular. Most parents will support any law that promises to keep their children safe. Other countries are following America's example, either importing Megan's laws or increasing penalties: after two little girls were murdered by a school caretaker, Britain has imposed multiple conditions on who can visit schools.

Which makes it all the more important to ask whether America's approach is the right one. In fact its sex-offender laws have grown self-defeatingly harsh (see article). They have been driven by a ratchet effect. Individual American politicians have great latitude to propose new laws. Stricter curbs on paedophiles win votes. And to sound severe, such curbs must be stronger than the laws in place, which in turn were proposed by politicians who wished to appear tough themselves. Few politicians dare to vote against such laws, because if they do, the attack ads practically write themselves.

A Whole Wyoming of Offenders

In all, 674,000 Americans are on sex-offender registries--more than the population of Vermont, North Dakota or Wyoming. The number keeps growing partly because in several states registration is for life and partly because registries are not confined to the sort of murderer who ensnared Megan Kanka. According to Human Rights Watch, at least five states require registration for people who visit prostitutes, 29 require it for consensual sex between young teenagers and 32 require it for indecent exposure. Some prosecutors are now stretching the definition of "distributing child pornography" to include teens who text half-naked photos of themselves to their friends.

How dangerous are the people on the registries? A state review of one sample in Georgia found that two-thirds of them posed little risk. For example, Janet Allison was found guilty of being "party to the crime of child molestation" because she let her 15-year-old daughter have sex with a boyfriend. The young couple later married. But Ms Allison will spend the rest of her life publicly branded as a sex offender.

Several other countries have sex-offender registries, but these are typically held by the police and are hard to view. In America it takes only seconds to find out about a sex offender: some states have a "click to print" icon on their websites so that concerned citizens can put up posters wit

Re:America's unjust sex laws

[0100010001010011]

In some states, the age of consent and child porn statutes have the same age limits.

For instance, a quick read of NV law shows the AOC to be 16. Child porn is defined as sexually explicit blah blah blah involving a person under 16. Federal law makes it a crime with a person under 18, but there may be some state line/interstate commerce nexus that needs to be fulfilled.

I didn't feel like looking at too many states, but found this same AOC/CP thing with NH-16/16.

Many states forbid distributing/exhibiting obscenity to people under 18, regardless of their AOC/CP statutes.

SO, excluding the feds, it's not a crime to have sex with a 16 year old or film it. But, she can't watch the tape afterwards. It's a crime to allow her 16 year old friend to watch the act as it occurs, but not a crime to have her join. Neither of them can smoke a cigarette or have a beer afterwards. If either one were to rob,beat,kill one of their fellow participants, they would be tried as an adult in every state in the country.

The Economist this week

[g8oz]

On the cover of the Economist this week:

America's Unfair Sex Laws
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14164614

The one story of the woman classified as a sex offender for performing oral sex as a teenager is unbelievable.
It's hard to argue that at the very least a threat level classification for sex offenders wouldn't be a good idea

Re:Why are sex offenders treated worse than murder

[geekoid]

in your scenario, they would still be a sex offender.
Just sayin'

Are all C programmers sex offenders?

[mangu]

As many other posters have pointed out, things like ... texting a naked picture, etc require registration as a sex offender

Wow, does this mean ASCII art too? Then I must admit I'm a sex offender! I have sometimes used the expression if (C==8) in my programs...

Re:Are all C programmers sex offenders?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, I don't think that counts as a sex offense. However, there should be a registry for those who use "magic numbers" in their code. Sorry, you can't live within a 1000 feet of my computer :)

you question is wrong ...

[neonprimetime]

... it should say "Why are murderers treated better than sex offenders"

Maybe the punishments for sex offenders are already ok, and the punishmnets for murderers should be more severe?

Re:Why are sex offenders treated worse than murder

[Paul Carver]

in your scenario, they would still be a sex offender.

Yes, but not a registered sex offender. That was the point. Assuming they successfully disposed of the body they could still be convicted of murder but it would be much harder to prove rape. The murder charge would carry jail time, but there is a significant possibility of them eventually being released from jail and from that point on they would be in the clear. On the other hand, the sex offender charge would be a life sentence. Only part of that sentence would be jail time, but the time after release from jail could very well be worse than the time spent in jail.

This relates to the "law of unintended consequences". We all agree that rape is bad, but assuming that rape has been committed the current state of law provides incentive for murder. Having committed rape, the perpetrator is very likely better off killing and disposing of the victim rather than releasing them.

Re:More bad news from Quinn... Visitation Rights!

[corbettw]

This is a good law. I had to fight my ex-wife for years just to be able to talk to my kids on the phone. A law like this would've helped immensely.

Those are old and short-horizoned

[davidwr]

This was published in 2003 but reflects data from the first 3 years after releases in 1994.

For something that can be as deeply engrained as age-based sexual attraction or sociopathic tendencies that lead to rape, I would like to see 10-years-after-release statistics comparing various sex-offender scenarios with each other and with non-sex offense scenarios.

We also must stop lumping people together as "sex offenders." It's simply not a useful category when it comes to protecting the public from perceived future recidivism risk.

Re:Those are old and short-horizoned

[ring-eldest]

10 years? Here you go.

http://voice-of-reason.pbworks.com/f/CA-Ten%20year%20recidivism%20study%20CDCR%206-17-08.pdf

We bounce these guys back to jail for nitpicky violations of parole pretty much exclusively. A 3.38% cumulative recidivism rate for sex offenses is INSANELY low. The odds are probably much better that a slashdotter will commit a sex crime during that same time period.

betterunixthanunix (980855) is willfully spreading misinformation either because he's a massive idiot or because he has some kind of agenda.

Re:Those are old and short-horizoned

[ring-eldest]

I meant OriginalSolver (552648)... God, I'm sorry betterunixthanunix. :( Stupid cut-and-paste happy fingers.

Re:Bzzt! Wrong!

[Abcd1234]

Correct. And all those things are also wrong.

Creating an underclass of ex-cons who can no longer integrate effectively into society is a great way to ensure that criminals re-offend. Voting, in particular, is a right, not a privilege, and the government should never have the power to take that right away, ever (well, unless you like the idea of the government disenfranchising people based on the very laws they passed).

Here's the Economist article.

[Dr. Manhattan]

Illiberal Politics: America's Unjust Sex Laws.

Re:Why are sex offenders treated worse than murder

[ukyoCE]

You're raising two different (valid) questions.

One is "why are sex offenders treated worse than murderers". The answer is because *some* types of sex offenders have an extremely high recidivism rate. They're very likely to commit repeat offenses, while *most* murderers are not.

If you're thinking "why are we letting criminals that are almost guaranteed to continue to commit crimes out of jail?", you're probably right.

Your second question is "why are public urination, consumption of porn, and other passive acts categorized together with rape and molestation?"

I don't have a good answer for that one, but it is clearly absurd. Something needs to be done to differentiate the recidivist and harmful crimes from the minor ones and punish the two independently.

Re:This is incorrect

[rjstanford]

Also, those with stable family, housing, and employment situations are much less likely to re-offend than others.

Unfortunately, most municipalities interpretation of the sex-offender list pretty much precludes this. In some major cities, the "off limits" sections are so widespread that you basically can't live there legally. Mass murderer released after 25 years? Come on down! On the list? Not in this town, buddy...

Whole premise is irrational

[Roger W Moore]

The entire premise is irrational. If there is such a large chance of the violent offenders re-offending then why are they being let out of prison? The primary reason for prison is to protect society not to punish. If politicians think that these people are still dangerous then it is illogical to let them back into society. Letting them back with all these restrictions is simple stupid: it does nothing to protect society and prevents the criminals from reintegrating and possibly leading a somewhat normal life.

Re:Whole premise is irrational

[StikyPad]

The premise is irrational, but prison is most certainly punishment, as evidenced by the ban on cruel and unusual punishment, not cruel and unusual "protection for society". Are perpetrators of so-called crimes of passion a threat to society at large? A woman who drowns her babies? A man who kills his spouse and her lover upon discovering them in bed? Probably not. Even a parent who abuses their children. All we'd have to do is take away her children, maybe get her spayed, don't allow adoption, and the problem is solved, right? We don't put them in prison to keep society safe; we put them in prison to punish their actions. You can argue that the goal *should* be rehabilitation and/or reintegration, but as it stands that's a separate issue.

So the fact that we let unsafe people out of jail isn't irrational -- they've served their sentence. The irrational thinking here is twofold: First, most sex crimes are committed against people with whom the offender is already intimately familiar. The reason the ratio of publicized rape cases to actual rapists is so high is because sex crimes against strangers are extremely rare, and thus newsworthy. There is an argument to be made that social networks (whatever the fsck that means) can be avenues to making new social connections, which could lead to recidivism, but by that logic we should be ban from *any* social contact, which is clearly both impossible and absurd.

Second, as previously stated, one needn't be a rapist or a molester to end up on a sex offender registry. But more importantly, what is it about crimes involving sex that makes them inherently worse than other crimes, aside from morality. Why is stealing panties worse than stealing cash or a television? Why is a crime committed pursuant to the offender's own sexual gratification worse than a crime committed pursuant to the offender's fiscal gratification? Or megalomaniacal gratification? Or even psychopathic indifference which, I would argue, is a far more dangerous trait. If we are to use motivation to determine the severity of a crime, then it should be reserved for cases where motivation excuses the act, not where it reinforces the idea that the act should be illegal -- that's why the law exists in the first place*. This is especially true because rape is, at its root, an act of power. This is evident even by the context in which the word is used -- nobody sees an attractive person and says "I'd sure like to rape them!" They might use lewd terminology, but certainly they wouldn't be sexually gratified by raping them. On the other hand, rape is frequently a threat made by people who are angry at each other. People who want to, but usually cannot, impose their will on others. (See also: nerd rage). This is also the root problem of "hate crimes," because every crime is a crime of hate, or of deciding that someone else's value is less than your own, and acting accordingly.

* For example, killing to defend your own life is sometimes acceptable. It's acceptable when someone else initiates a threat against you, but obviously attempting to mug someone with a knife and having them pull a gun isn't an excuse to slash their throat.

No so ineffective after all

[cdrguru]

I see a lot of comments about how effective this could be - like with the offender just making up a screen name and lying about his status.

Sorry, won't work. Most sex offenders have mandatory logging on all Internet activity. So if the law says they can't have a MySpace account and the log shows they are going to MySpace - BUSTED. And that likely as not is a violation of their parole, so it is back to prison.

Sex offenders have pretty much zero civil rights today. Your actions online are monitored and if you tamper with the monitoring you are violated. If the monitoring (which is collected remotely) shows you are doing something wrong, you are violated. There are really few differences between life in prison and life for a sex offender on the street today.

And the registration laws make it even more interesting. You might as well just have people wear a bright yellow star on their clothes to indicate their status as an outcast. Oh, I guess that has been tried before. It did seem to work for a while, but only for a while.

Maybe we can get a country set aside for sex offenders.

Re:This is incorrect

[Sandbags]

You're correct. There are a rare few sexual offenders who repeat. However, within certain small bands of sexual offenders (child molesters, aggrevated rapists, certain types of stalkers, etc) there are chemical or phychological imbalances that make it far more likely.

I think the reason a 5% repeat rate is thorwon out there is partly to convince the public these released felons may not be as much of a risk as the public would like to believe, and also that this number is skewed by "sexual offences" that really are not (streaking, sex in public, pissing in the woods, etc). I live near a beach resort. You would not believe how many people are completely shocked to find out their life is ruined and they're being added to sexual offender lists because they got caught getting frisky in the waves at 2AM. If people knew what the punishment was, they probably would not have done it, and trust me, those who do never will again, and that's considering most never see a night in prison, potentially accepting a night or two in holding before seeing a judge.

Relatives and friends

[skeeto]

"Obviously, the Internet has been more and more a mechanism for predators to reach out," said Sen. Bill Brady (R-Bloomington)

Obviously he doesn't know what she's talking about. Nearly all "predators" are related to, or are good friends with, the victim. Social networking sites aren't even on the radar.

I hate politicians.

The utmost resistance standard is archaic.

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

So we can only call a crime violent if the victim is willing to resist in same[sic] manner?

Uh, yes. At least in the US; I don't have enough knowledge about other jurisdictions to comment on them. If the victim makes absolutely no effort to resist, to include verbal refusal, then forcible rape cannot be proven. If I had any of my law books in my backpack, I'd cite them, but the bottom line here is that in order to charge someone with forcible rape, the victim has to offer some kind of resistance.

The first problem with your claim is that the US has dozens of jurisdictions, with different rape/sexual assault laws. You can't flat out assert that that utmost resistance is a requirement for a rape accusation in the USA; you have to name jurisdictions. I can tell you for sure that there is no such provision in California, the most populous of the states. Hell, read the link and see to what lengths they go to make it clear that the threat must not even be violent (many bits omitted):

261. (a) Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a person not the spouse of the perpetrator, under any of the following circumstances:

(2) Where it is accomplished against a person's will by means of force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate and unlawful bodily injury on the person or another.

(5) Where a person submits under the belief that the person committing the act is the victim's spouse, and this belief is induced by any artifice, pretense, or concealment practiced by the accused, with intent to induce the belief.

(6) Where the act is accomplished against the victim's will by threatening to retaliate in the future against the victim or any other person, and there is a reasonable possibility that the perpetrator will execute the threat. As used in this paragraph, "threatening to retaliate" means a threat to kidnap or falsely imprison, or to inflict extreme pain, serious bodily injury, or death.

(7) Where the act is accomplished against the victim's will by threatening to use the authority of a public official to incarcerate, arrest, or deport the victim or another, and the victim has a reasonable belief that the perpetrator is a public official. As used in this paragraph, "public official" means a person employed by a governmental agency who has the authority, as part of that position, to incarcerate, arrest, or deport another. The perpetrator does not actually have to be a public official.

What is indeed the case is that historically, in many countries' traditional legal system, an utmost resistance standard has existed along the lines that you have mentioned. These requirements have mostly gone away in Western countries, however, along with other sexist requirements such as (a) the victim must not be the wife of the accused (e.g., California has a crime of spousal rape), and (b) the requirement that the alleged rape victim be an "honest" woman (e.g., the "no harm in raping a slut" defense).

Re:Why are sex offenders treated worse than murder

[StikyPad]

If punishment were meted out based on the odds of recidivism, we'd give life sentences for speeding and fines for murder.

Re:Bzzt! Wrong!

[StrategicIrony]

Society has decided that owning a gun and driving a car are not rights, but are privileges that you generally (usually) must obtain a license to do.

While I don't agree with firearms restrictions (and I don't think that applies to every state), you would also remove a drivers license from someone who goes blind, or is diagnosed with severe narcolepsy, neither of which are crimes. You may also loose the privilege to drive if you get caught speeding or have multiple reckless driving tickets, etc

Driving, being something that you must earn through a test and maintain annually or at least every 10 years or so.

There are many other things like this, but "visiting Facebook" isn't one of them.

Re:Not that long ago.

[shutdown -p now]

Naturally these laws had nothing to do with protecting children; they were usually used to target homosexuals. In fact, of the 70-or-so countries where these laws are still in place, 40 of them only target male homosexual acts.

So the (typically religious) nuts get all fire and brimstone about gay sex between dudes (which is icky and gross and you put it where?) but when it's between women, oh! well... well surely if God had wanted hot lesbian action to be illegal wouldn't have made it so damned arousing. No, can't go making that illegal.

That actually goes waaaay back - IIRC, male homosexuality is a deadly sin in Judaism, but female homosexuality isn't (in fact it's existence is not even acknowledged anywhere). If I understand correctly, it is a consequence of their society being patriarchal - a homosexual male might just decide to not marry, or to avoid sexual intercourse with wife in marriage, and thus not produce any offspring (which would be vital for the survival of the tribe). There was also a fairly widespread belief that male semen is limited in supply, and thus shouldn't be "wasted".

On the other hand, women would usually be married without their consent, and once married, couldn't refuse sex to husband, so if they chose to screw each other in between their male gratification and child bearing duties, no-one really cared.

Why would I use my real name?

[CuBeFReNZy]

Wouldn't someone who is looking for sex with little kids.. or whatever the deal is... just use a fake name??? I think that Illinois might be underestimating the intelligence of people here...

What is a Sex Offender in Illinois?

[Velcroman98]

I knew a gal in an apartment I lived in (in Phoenix) who once flashed er boobs to a couple of adult males (I missed 'em). The manager called the police and they charged her with a sex crime. I spoke with her about a year later, she was homeless and living on the street or with any guy that would let her stay. After the flashing and sex crime she was thrown out of the apartment. No other apartment in Phoenix would rent to her because of the crime free lease addendums.

How many other stories are there about people getting charged with a sex crime for taking a leak outside?

If this gets enforced strickly, how many people will have to log-off? Is Slashdot considered a social network site?