Mixed Conclusions About Powerline Networking vs. Ham Radio

Barence writes "Since writing about the success he's had with powerline networking, a number of readers emailed PC Pro's Paul Ockendon to castigate him for recommending these products, such as HomePlug. They were all amateur radio enthusiasts, claiming the products affect their hobby in much the same way that urban lighting affects amateur astronomers, but rather than causing light pollution they claim powerline networking causes radio pollution in the HF band (otherwise known as shortwave). Paul's follow-up feature, 'Does powerline networking nuke radio hams?' documents his investigation into these claims, which found evidence to support both sides of an intriguing debate."

Comments

It isn't just a hobby

[Nefarious Wheel]

It's a volunteer emergency communications organisation.

Re:It isn't just a hobby

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

At the moment, sure; but if interference has been the rule for long enough, most hams will presumably have given up, mothballed their stuff, died off, not taken up the hobby because "what's the point?", and so forth...

The number of people willing to maintain ham gear and skills waiting for the day it'll be useful is, presumably, a fair bit smaller than the number willing to pursue ham day to day as a hobby.

Re:It isn't just a hobby

[TerribleNews]

And I would MUCH rather trust the organization of a relief effort to trained professionals -- like state, federal, and military emergency staff -- to a bunch of "volunteers."

You are obviously not from New Orleans.

Re:It isn't just a hobby

[Bill_the_Engineer]

As someone who served on the disaster committee of a regional American Red Cross chapter and worked along side two county EMA directors as well as the state EMA, I would politely disagree with you.

You will find a VHF and HF amateur radio station at most county EMA offices and the state EMA office. You will also find them at all three weather service offices that serves my state. Why? Because most amateur radio operators that volunteer to help us out are willing to attend a class on how we expected them to help us. They are courteous and professional, and most importantly they are already "out in the field" and FREE labor. The fact that they have the equipment capable of providing reliable long distance communications is a bonus.

I don't know how wealthy your local government is, but ours prefer to use the professional emergency responders to handle law enforcement, curfews, medical emergencies, and leave the "health and welfare" communications (which include status updates from shelters and staging areas) to the amateur radio operators. During a large scale disaster, the professional labor pool quickly becomes inadequate and we are always looking for trained volunteers in addition to the radio operators.

Amateur radio operators also help the national weather service by participating in SKYWARN. During the 90's they helped confirm weather warnings issued while nexrad (next generation radar) was being deploy. Today, they still serve a purpose by being the eyes and ears of the national weather service.

Re:It isn't just a hobby

[UnrealisticWhample]

1. Guy writes an article about a product.
2. Guy gets feedback, some of it far less than civil, stating that he was being irresponsible in his product recommendations.
3. Guy, rather than dismissing the issue as no doubt many would, actually does some research and writes a follow up.

I hardly think that this qualifies as "just about the most ignorant, one-sided article" on this topic, at least among those that you've read. This guy isn't a government agency or an academic group tasked with doing research into public safety concerns so it isn't his job to launch a comprehensive study into the issue.

I get that there seem to be some credible concerns, but you aren't going to win anyone over by making hyperbolic claims about anyone that fails to agree with you. Posting "ignorant, one-sided" insult laden posts on Slashdot isn't exactly helping your cause.

Re:It isn't just a hobby

[spickus]

I did, and you me gave a license saying that I may operate my toys. Furthermore my transmitters, if operated correctly, may cause your unlicensed devices interference which you must accept. You however may not interfere with my toys.
73
DE K2TY SK

Re:It isn't just a hobby

[Anonymous Coward]

Well - they have. It's called "Federal Regulations" and the "FCC". If you look at your gear, you'll notice it's certified as a "Part 15" device. Part of that certification says: "may not cause interference and must accept interference, including interference that causes undesirable operation". Hams are licensed - part 15 are not. In the official 'pecking order' - you loose.

So long as the ham is following the rules, regulations and operating to good engineering practices, any help you get from him in minimizing interference issues is out of the goodness of his own heart. Not because of the law. The law says it's your problem and the ham has no obligation to fix it. It's all on you.

But, this is off topic here and I'll leave it to you to educate yourself on how things really work.

Re:It isn't just a hobby

[kc8apf]

Actually, it's fairly common to have international interference that prevents communication on the lower bands (160m/80m). So, yes, interference generated in China _can_ cause hams in the US to not be able to use that frequency range.

Re:It isn't just a hobby

[Anonymous Coward]

When you're in a disaster, you're not really interested in getting help from other people who are also in the affected area, who are also without power.

You want help from people *outside* the affected area. And if this goes forward, they won't be able to hear you. Which means there's no reason to keep the radios in the first place.

That's as wrong as it could be.

It's for this reason that hams, at least in the US and Canada, and likely other places, stage what's called Field Day every year. They gather in groups and operate under what are essentially emergency conditions. There is some operation from commercial power, but that may be sporadically available even in a disaster. It may not be right there at your house, but if it's available anywhere nearby, you can gather up all your mobile gear and go to the firehouse, police station or hospital where you're likely to have generators kicked in. The radio gear local authorities have (as shown on 9/11) is often not inter-operable. To this day, despite all the FEMA talk. A huge number of hams are already trained and certified to do this and they have regular drills. If you read the history of the Amateur Radio Service, its original mission was to have a ready reserve of trained, competent communicators in case they were needed for the war effort. They were needed and were deployed with amazing speed.

Any time your town has one of those realistic hurricane, earthquake or flood drills, you can bet there are hams among the first responders, specifically because they know that phone lines go down and cell towers either lose power or get overloaded.

Aside from operating on commercial power, Field Day is mostly based on self-provided power. Hams use generators, solar power, batteries and any number of other power sources. Yes, some even make use of small generators powered by someone on what looks like a stationary exercise bike. It may come as a surprise that a low-power (less than five watts) radio can be an amazingly effective communications tool in the hands of a trained, experienced operator.

Note also that little, if any, of this communications capability is funded by the government (another way of saying tax dollars out of your pocket). It's largely individually self-funded by individual hams or by radio clubs to which they belong. Many hams also maintain and constantly verify operation of gear collected in "go bags" -- duffels or cases containing everything necessary to travel a hundred miles and set up a fully operating station within a very short time. One friend in particular has everything needed for a station stored in well under two cubic feet in his (small) car trunk at all times. I've seen him open the trunk and get on the air within fifteen minutes. If AC is available, he plugs in his power supply. If not, he has fittings on his battery that he can clip into in seconds.

Aside from that, many hams also have constantly-operating mobile units in their personal vehicles. I listen to a group five mornings a week where half the operators are mobile. And yes, they are exempt from (at least) California laws mandating hands-free cellphone operation. Like pilots, ambulance drivers, police, etc., they are trained to drive and communicate safely at the same time.

Sheesh

[MightyMartian]

It's not a debate. Doing this turns those power lines into big antennas. You can't debate the laws of physics.

Re:Sheesh

[Attila Dimedici]

Better yet, just start a rumor that Republicans are using Ham radio to organize opposition to nationalized health care and the Democrats will do everything they can to get rid of it. Of course, in that case they will claim that any debate is "un-American".

It's easy to get confused on this topic

[Bruce Perens]

There are two different things that can be considered power-line networking. One is the kind where the powerline is used to provide internet to many homes all the way from a central location through intermediate power transformers. This, fortunately, is already obsolete, because it could not provide good enough bandwidth to pay for itself. It did interfere with many radio users, not just hams.

The other is within-home networking like Homeplug. ARRL dealt with early interference issues and has not reported any recent ones as far as I'm aware. But the very earliest models allowed us to hear your phone call on shortwave! Fortunately, people who owned those were found and warned, for the most part.

Bruce

Big Props

[Anonymous Coward]

Props to the egghead who called me after Katrina with a message from my sister saying she was okay.

Does powerline networking nuke radio hams

[randy of the redwood]

I prefer my hams honey glazed and baked rather than microwaved anyway.

HF is the only communications safety net

[mpoulton]

"keeping the HF bands clear for low signal communication is a bit like keeping the rail tracks clear of fast express trains so that nostalgists can run steam trains over them."

The author's analogy belies the fatal flaw in his though process: HF communications may be older and slower than the internet, but the internet is highly unreliable and fails when communications are most critical. HF always works. HF is the ONLY completely reliable means of long-distance communication that humans have. To destroy mankind's sole means of completely reliable communication in favor of a system which fails when needed most is simply foolish. This isn't about amateur radio. It's merely incidental that most HF communications these days are by hams, and that hams handle disaster comms when the networks go down. These communications could be handled by any group of people, and the result would be the same: without a reliable HF infrastructure, humans screw themselves doubly when nature screws us.

The issue is simple

[davygrvy]

Power lines were never meant to carry RF energy. When they are, they radiate. Cable TV doesn't radiate. It doesn't radiate because it uses a proper transmission medium (Coax). If the power line folks want to distribute DATA, they should string the poles with fiber optic. Better yet, we the people should string it, and sell access to the content providers.. ala municipal fiber networks. They can work folks!