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Mixed Conclusions About Powerline Networking vs. Ham Radio
Barence writes "Since writing about the success he's had with powerline networking, a number of readers emailed PC Pro's Paul Ockendon to castigate him for recommending these products, such as HomePlug. They were all amateur radio enthusiasts, claiming the products affect their hobby in much the same way that urban lighting affects amateur astronomers, but rather than causing light pollution they claim powerline networking causes radio pollution in the HF band (otherwise known as shortwave). Paul's follow-up feature, 'Does powerline networking nuke radio hams?' documents his investigation into these claims, which found evidence to support both sides of an intriguing debate."
It's a volunteer emergency communications organisation.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
It's not a debate. Doing this turns those power lines into big antennas. You can't debate the laws of physics.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
The prison niggers appreciate those crackers running the internets on the power. Now we know we have whitey looking after our AOL and we look to take white HAM radio nerds up the ass. It be the best thing to run a train on a chubby low self esteem white chick, fucking her pussy and asshole all night long. It is almost as good as tapping some puerto rican ass, but that shit is tighter and when that bitch get violent (PR chicks always do) we just duct tape that mouth shut while we take turns cumming in that ass over and over. Mexican bitches be the best cause you can run up on a bitch with a fat ass in broad daylight and run a pimp train on that bitch in her anus and that immigrant husband won't do shit. When we got some gay ass niggers who want to fuck some male asshole, we just run up on a mexican man, who they gonna report. Sometimes we just abduct the bitch to our projects apartment for the week and fuck the shit out of her, until we get tired of that bitch. White bitches are more fun though, sometimes when the bitch is chubby and horny enough we just fuck her through for 2 weeks and come back in another week cause her fat ass is ready for more. Smack bitches with a 10 inch cock. I once raped this indian chick, she was mad weak, so i got my boys to run a train on her that lasted 3 days. She looked like frosty the snowman after we all got done with cumming on her. She got that shit so hard she must of spit cum for a month. I recently visted her and punched her in the face before I got inside that ass again. We be abnormal.
This is like the folks who wanted to ban automobiles because they scared the horses. In the long run, who cares about HAM radio. It's an obsolete elitist hobby for techno-geeks. Let it die.
The other is within-home networking like Homeplug. ARRL dealt with early interference issues and has not reported any recent ones as far as I'm aware. But the very earliest models allowed us to hear your phone call on shortwave! Fortunately, people who owned those were found and warned, for the most part.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Props to the egghead who called me after Katrina with a message from my sister saying she was okay.
I totally support the HAM radio community, there must be some sort of work around so that both technologies can work without interfering with each other.
I prefer my hams honey glazed and baked rather than microwaved anyway.
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you are shorter of breath and one day closer to death
I'm a fag looking for another fag to have fag sex with. Please respond if interested. No trolls or non-fags, please.
We had a situation where the house wasn't wired but and was built like a castle 18 inch thick walls, Those things worked out of the box.
I doubt any EM leaked out of that house.
"keeping the HF bands clear for low signal communication is a bit like keeping the rail tracks clear of fast express trains so that nostalgists can run steam trains over them."
The author's analogy belies the fatal flaw in his though process: HF communications may be older and slower than the internet, but the internet is highly unreliable and fails when communications are most critical. HF always works. HF is the ONLY completely reliable means of long-distance communication that humans have. To destroy mankind's sole means of completely reliable communication in favor of a system which fails when needed most is simply foolish. This isn't about amateur radio. It's merely incidental that most HF communications these days are by hams, and that hams handle disaster comms when the networks go down. These communications could be handled by any group of people, and the result would be the same: without a reliable HF infrastructure, humans screw themselves doubly when nature screws us.
I am a geek attorney, but not your geek attorney unless you've already retained me. This is not legal advice.
Power lines were never meant to carry RF energy. When they are, they radiate. Cable TV doesn't radiate. It doesn't radiate because it uses a proper transmission medium (Coax). If the power line folks want to distribute DATA, they should string the poles with fiber optic. Better yet, we the people should string it, and sell access to the content providers.. ala municipal fiber networks. They can work folks!
-=[ place
You sir are a cuntdot FAG!!! I prefer pussy.
It's me the Idle Troll
AMPRNet (44/8)
HSMM
Amateur radio and internet access are not mutually exclusive as those with investments in copper would have you think.
Frequency planning is an area you would need to study further before you could make sensible statements about it. Sorry, and good luck if you do decide to look into it.
Bruce Perens.
The HomePlug system is better than most power line networking systems because it trys to stay off of amateur radio frequencies. Instead, Home plug tends to use public safety, aviation, buisness, military and TV broadcast frequencies. It still has the potential to interfere, but most those users aren't trying to communicate halfway around the world with power levels that range from a pair of flashlight batteries to a 100W lightbulb. Whith home plug, there is still the possiblity that some public safety agency will be unable to communicate, some military project may land in your back yard, or you may not beable to watch some of your favorite TV shows. In general most users of the HomePlug frequencies won't notice or complain about the interferance like a Ham will.
Anytime you put RF signals on power lines, they radiate. In fact almost all wires and cables radiate. It is just a matter of magnitude and frequency.
Amature radio operators (and for that matter professional radio technicians) try to keep the RF currents in their coaxial cables flowing inside the cable where the potential of radiation is minimal and the shielding is highest. When properly installed, very little power leaks out of the cable before it arrives at the antenna.
Many amateur radio operators use twin lead or ladder line which is a transmission line with two conductors parallel to each other. When properly installed, the current on each wire has the same amplitude and is perfectly out of phase with the other wire(correctly phased). When equal amplitude and proper phaseing are present, the RF fields from each wire cancel and the cable produces no (or very little) radiation. When improperly installed, the unequal currents or improperly phased currents cause this type of transmission line to radiates really badly.
Home wiring and powerline wiring is very simular to twin lead transmission line. In a home or on a power pole, there are stubs, nails and other metal objects nearby that cause the RF currents to become unbalanced (either unequal amplitudes or imprope phasing). As a result, the power wiring radiates. Since most powerline networking systems need strong signals the radiation is likely to cause interferance to someone. In some cases, the victim of that interferance can be hundreds of meters away.
In summary, power line networking is a bad idea. HomePlug is a slightly less bad idea than most of the other powerline networking ideas. To HomePlug's credit, they have tried to play nice with the other users of the HF spectrum.
Here in Westchester, NY one of our local utilites tried a system in Briarcliff Manor, NY. It totally wiped out any HF reception within 3 tenths of a mile. Your normal background static was replaced by a 30/+9 digital hash. (For you non radio folks, and wi-fi does NOT count, that means the meter is pinned and you can't hear sh#&.) A broad rollout of BPL would mean that for the vast majority of radio amateurs, model railroading would be a better idea-sell you equipment to the illegal CB ops. The systems cannot coexist. I'd be very afraid of BPL when the sunspot numbers are high, as you'd then get interference from BPL somewhere in the world-making all of HF useless. While HF is not where your magik cell phone or Blackberry live, and it is not currently in style, does not mean that it is the toxic waste dump of the RF spectrum. Wi-Max, if the intere$ted partie$ involved could ever get their act together, would be a much better idea. BPL also wipes out CB, which is meaningless unless you are a trucker...or use anything trucks deliver.
I would make the arguement that homeplug intereference is a bad thing, not becuse of EMCOM, but because people should be able to enjoy a hobby without intereference from their neighbor.
"Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
Anyone else being amused by all of the indigant and incadescent radio hams in this forum and comment on TFA?
I shall have to remember to troll them more often...
It is appalling to see the dishonest arguments used by the proponents of BPL.
Sure Hams would be affected, but what about the hundreds of other essential services which cram into the H.F. bands?
Everything from Military, to Ambulance, Fire, Police, Aircraft, Marine, etc. rely on H.F. for reliable remote communications.
Ham Radio is an easy target ("just a bunch of nerds, who needs them?"), but whenever the spin is limited to Ham Radio, you know you are listening to a bunch of lying scumbags.
As a professional Communications Engineer, I can tell you that we must kill BPL!
Had you posted this on a more proper forum (say freerepublic), you would have been moderated "+5 insightful" for telling the "truth". It is a scary world when instead of people laughing at what you wrote, they say "right on" or "preach it brother!". And trust me, they exist. I've meet people in real life who if you spoke this with the right tone would have taken you 100% serious.
Scary scary world. No wonder Obama keeps hiding the documents proving the "Moon Landing" was a hoax because 1) the "moon" is really just a window into heaven 2) the world is flat and 3) anybody who disagrees doesn't live in Real America (tm).
There are other services in the HF band between 1.8 MHz and 50 MHz than just Ham operators and shortwave radio stations.
The spectrum is also used for aviation, particularly when commercial aircraft are over the ocean and out of line-of-sight to a shore station. Most ships at sea use HF radio for communications from ship to ship and for ship to shore communications. The military still uses HF communications for a great many systems, including the broadcast of EAM (emergency action messages).
Someone will say "so what, they are way up in the air or in the middle of the ocean" but they fail to realize that the shore based stations are subject to interference while trying to receive signals from aircraft and ships.
There are still radio navigation systems that operate in the HF bands, weather bouys in the ocean sending back data by HF and many other overlooked systems of lesser renown.
Having spent a significant amount of my professional life hunting down interference sources to communications systems I can say it is NOT a good idea to put a thousand low powerline network extenders across a city. There WILL be harmonic interference, intermodulation and an overall decrease in performance. Look at how badly screwed up the 802.11 a/b/g/n, Bluetooth and ZigBee are? The 2.4 and 5.8 GHz devices at least have the decency of being line-of-sight and range is limited by buildings. As soon as you attach something to the wiring system of your home you create something that is impossible to manage (resolving interference issues).
Give this one to the Hams and to those of us who still own and use shortwave radios.
Tisha Hayes
If those "dedicated volunteers" have to fire up generators to use their quaint little toys, the powerline networks aren't going to be running.
Funny how your wife, Beatrice, never mentioned the fact that in your absence I gayroped her continuously and she didn't cry once. Pedro trained you to be weak just like him. You'll never win, and will join him in Heck!
Ham's are pretty much self policing. The people that you get the most problem from are CB operators who have poorly tuned boosters.
I totally agree 1000%. I recall one person who lived across the street from me had a CB in his house. We could always tell when he talked on the radio because our toaster would start talking. We never had problems with hams, who also lived near us, though.
Back then I wanted to get my license but I had trouble with Morse Code.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
it is truly frightening that the FCC has no one at a high level, or anyone listened to at high levels, who has ANY knowledge of how RF signals behave.
No, what's truly frightening is that the FCC exists. It was created for large broadcasting businesses.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Are there any rigorous studies demonstrating that power line networking doesn't create radio interference to other devices?
Years ago, I was part of a team that created a software package that calculated the potential for interference from commercial FM transmitters to aircraft navigation signals, primarily the ILS. This came about because one of my coworkers was collecting data during a flight and noticed some odd interference. A subsequent flight was made with an ILS receiver with some taps made at certain points in the circuitry and they were able to record a portion of a broadcast from a radio station in Ohio that someone in the plane recognized. It surprised the hell out of a lot of people. (The sick joke around the lab was that it might be handy to pick up the Indians game while in the plane; if they won you could at least die happy). And the software package pissed off a lot of folks with a lot of money that wanted to erect transmitters wherever they damn well pleased who found out that the land they'd purchased couldn't be used for a tower. Or at least they wouldn't be allowed to broadcast at the power that they wanted. (Less power and the signal reaches fewer listeners and you can't charge as much for ads. Hence their anger.) Their thinking was that the two spectrums didn't overlap so what trouble could possibly occur?
Personally, I'd much rather see power line networking die a quiet death if there's a chance, however remote, of it causing an aircraft to auger in because it interfered with the landing system. (I'm of a similar mind of the bozos who think they need to be on their cell phones and laptops while the aircraft is on final approach. Having to squeeze that much work into a flight brings new meaning to the word "deadline".)
http://www.google.com/search?q=ARRL+powerline
Problem was our FCC was giving the noisy interfering tech a free pass until the ARRL took them to court and won.
Other companies with different approaches were and are acceptable to hams.
Compact flourescent lighting is much more damaging to ham radio transmissions. Those eco-friendly tubes are poorly shielded and generate tremendous amounts of radio frequency interference in the form of electromagnetic radiation. Ask any ham - they will tell you that this is a much bigger problem than powerline networking.
Ask Me About... The 80's!
Fiber Optic.
While I'd like fiber to the home, if not inside it, I'd prefer mobile wireless broadband with a range of at least a couple hundred miles. Without interefence.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
elitist hobby for techno-geeks? This comment alone is one of the reason that the world is the way it is today. People are ignorant of what they don't know or understand. Maybe you don't care about ham radio. Maybe or thing is prostitutes... personally who cares about prostitutes? If you have a personality that can attract a real woman to have real relationship with, then you don't need prostitutes. A second point, ham radio has and will be as long as it is around, a stating point for many that grow up (unlike the poster) to become such things as engineers... For those people that are ignorant (like the poster) engineers design things that you might use. Ham radio is not only used for a hobby and for enjoyment, but also as emergency backup communications for many facilities, include hospitals. As an emergency coordinator i have seen/been involved first hand in these situations. Just because you (said poster again) don't like or understand something doesn't mean its useless. Ignorance is one or the sadist things i know of, right next to the words "I don't know how, do it for me!" 73, N3NQ
I am a ham radio operator and I can tell you first hand that it creates a vast amount of noise. Sure it's super annoying but what worries me more is that HF frequencies used by the various coast guard organizations and by trans-oceanic flights are also affected. That scares the crap out of me.
It's not just Ham/CB radio it affects. It also affects baby monitors and, for the Slashdot crowd, wireless mice and keyboard sets.
I have a long story but basically, someone who lived 100 yards away from me had a BT Vision PVR box. These come supplied with Comtrend PLT adapters. They wiped out pretty much everything I used, giving a constant +7 - +9dB of rapid pulse noise to my TRx, thus rendering it useless except for local contacts which, when you live in a town of 11,000 people, isn't a lot.
Basically, I reported it to Ofcom. They sent out a field engineer who confirmed the source and then forced the installer, BT, to remove and replace them. This has happened two weeks ago. Only problem is there's another in the opposite direction that's started recently but at the moment, it's low level so I'm letting it be until it gets worse.
They are a big problem in the UK. Ofcom has set up a dedicated investigation team because of the level of complaints. BT has spent so much time and money replacing them, as a result of being ordered to by Ofcom because of a complaint, that they're trialling a Wifi version of the BT Vision boxes.
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
there are a large number of radio astronomy researchers (think Arecibo) who are also concerned with the new interference that will probably be generated.
Make no worries, no study has in any case ever demonstrated how transmitting power wirelessly has any impact on your health.
That brain cancer you are having two months after you started using our new amazing technology is just due to bad food. Try improving your diet.
There have been concerns from Ham Radio enthusiasts that complain their shortwave radio signa would be heavily disturbed by wireless power appliances. Such false allegations have never been confirmed in any case by any study (also because there ain't be that many, if any), therefore they have to be seen as a biased attack against our New Technology. They are probably disturbing each other signals by themselves. Or it must be a wave of shortwave transmission from outer space.
He deserves a pat on the back for looking into the complaints.
But despite this, he still doesn't get it. He still thinks this is about his convenience vs. a small number of hobbyists. He essentially dismisses the legality issue as quibbling over technicalities, without understanding the reasons for the law.
The law isn't written for the convenience of ham radio operators. It's written for the good of society. Ham radio operators are just the members of the public who *understand* that radio spectrum is a limited resource. They're the only members of the public who ever deal with the rules that protect the public's interest in using spectrum fairly and efficiently in a direct way. Every time they make a connection, they've supposed to dial down to the least power that gets the job done. Most other people rely on *others* to adhere to the rules for them (e.g. radio station licensees, makers of consumer electronics).
So here we have a device that breaks the rules, and speaking as member of the general public with no knowledge of the issue he thinks the things the device can do at the price are wonderful. *But he's failed to make the connection* between the low cost, the breaking of the law, and the cost to everyone else. If everybody could ignore the rules about spectrum when it suited them, there'd be lots of things we could have cheaper but society's use of the radio spectrum would be crippled.
You either accept that anybody can do whatever they damn well please with spectrum, or you make rules and insist they apply to everyone. If the public benefit of keeping these devices cheaper than they would be under the law outweighs society's interest in fair and efficient spectrum use, then prove it. Then the law can be changed. But the assumption seems to be that people should be allowed to break a law passed for the public good because it is convenient for him. Anarchism is a possible philosophical position, of course, but people who advocate it when it benefits them can't complain when the same philosophy costs them.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
It's a real pity that they even had to do this. The FCC regulations require (or at least used to) that anyone causing interference had to modify their equipment to eliminate the interference. It shouldn't have taken a court order to get the FCC to enforce their own regulations. (Just a wild guess, mind you: the incident occurred during the Bush administration, right?)
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Fuck you dipshit.
Troll, flamebait, unnecessarily abusive: Call it what you will, but how I see it a post has to be much more insightful and original to get away with an opening line like that.
license, so that a EE can pass with flying colors without studying.
Do they still require the person to be able to build their own transceiver? Or is it just a bunch of regulations entry level licenses require? If it's just regulations I wonder why they even bother. I'd need to review or study but I want to relearn, because of an accident my memory was damaged, how to build radios. I picked up an electronics learning lab for this, unfortunately all I could find was a digital lab, I didn't see any analogue labs. However I only went to local shops, if I look online such as at Jameco I probably would find analogue labs, but I'd rather be able to return it locally if it doesn't work. I used to like going to Skycraft in Orlando, FL, but I moved away and don't know of any places like it locally.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
No morse code required for any level of licensing anymore
Yea, I heard about that.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Do you know Morse code?
Making sure enough people are trained in Morse is important because it can be used almost anywhere, not just the HF band.
Morse code isn't even needed for a license anymore. At least not in the US. So I doubt many new Hams learn it.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
There is the Law and there is the Spirit or Intention of the Law. The Spirit of the Law is: "to secure life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" and "peace and domestic tranquility"
So, the guy wrote 2 good articles that ended with really good advise. "Check with your neighbors". For any pompous tard that says he doesn't have to, you are right, for now. Laws often change and occasionally reverse. The Spirit of the Law does not. How can the Law change but the Spirit of the Law not change? Simple.
The Spirit of the Law never changes. Other laws are created to enforce the Spirit of the Law. The other laws are determined by the masses. I'm pretty sure the masses of networking-over-power-line users will quickly outnumber and dwarf the masses of HAM radio operators. But don't take my word for it. Watch and see.
I use one of those powerline Ethernet bridges and I decided to get out my old SW radio to see if I was generating any interference. Well, all I get when I set my radio to SW is a buzzsaw sound on all bands, whether or not my powerline adapter is connected. So, is it safe to assume that someone else in my condominium unit is also using powerline Ethernet?
That figures, as the reason I started to use powerline Ethernet in the first place was that WiFi interference around here was so bad it was virtually unusable.
It's not just HomePlug devices that cause interference with shortwave and similar styles of radio communication, it's just about any household electronics these days. Here's my anecdote.
My dad recently gave me an rather old battery-powered shortwave receiver. We tested it out at his place and it still worked great. When I brought it home, I couldn't use it. In my upstairs office, in the middle of the night, I couldn't pick up a single station. Not even a high-powered religious broadcast or timekeeping station. Instead, all I heard across the entire band was harsh-sounding static with extremely short bleeps and blips thrown in. I started turning things off to see if that would help, and it did. Massively. The biggest offenders were the CFL bulb lighting the room, my desktop computer, and a few switching power supplies, in that order.
So in my home, the only way to listen to shortwave radio is to go upstairs and sit in the dark with almost everything in the house unplugged. Which of course means I can't look up, document, or record any stations that I come across. Unless I go retro and use a candle, notebook, and battery-powered tape recorder. An outdoor antenna is impossible since I live in the city and a rooftop antenna probably wouldn't be far enough away from the interference.
Kinda sucks since I'm a softy for old tech.
I am not saying ham radio is needed just because I am a licensed operator, but because every time a disaster or communications failure occurs, ham radio is most often the only people that can communicate for emergenency services/coordination and the general public to pass traffic (such as wellness) and other important information. Even just to let a family member know another member or group are ok (or vice versa). Remember the cable cuts in California ealier this year? Disabled a lot of communications, even emergency services groups (police, 911, etc). ARES (amateur radio emergency servicess) was called out in full effect to provide comm for the entire length of the comm outage.