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Dell Says High Linux Netbook Returns a "Non-Issue"
Michiel Roos notes that at this week's OpenSource World, a Dell executive deflated Microsoft's claims that Linux notebooks have return rates four or five times higher than Windows machines. "Todd Finch, Dell senior product marketing manager, said the number of Linux returns are approximately the same as those for Windows netbooks. He categorized the matter of returns as a 'non-issue.' 'They are making something of nothing,' he said of Microsoft's claims."
That fact that a multi-billion dollar corporation is making up lies about free software on a daily basis is just another sign of true weakness.
People buying these machines know they ship with Ubuntu. It says so right on the website, and the button you click, and repeats it when you checkout. People aren't returning these machines more because they have Ubuntu, they're buying them more because they have Ubuntu.
Now, if only this would rub off on the rest of the business sectors. I'd love to buy a new Studio 15 laptop with the option for Ubuntu. It'd save me 45 minutes formatting, reinstalling Ubuntu and reconfiguring the system the way I like. But unfortunately their selection for machines with Ubuntu only includes the crap Inspiron line (the Ford Fiesta of laptops).
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
I suspect that, while the enthusiasm on ideastorm is real, it isn't wildly representative.
Think about the people who are actually passionate about computer related stuff: You've got the Linux and/or FOSS guys, the hardcore gamers, the Mac-heads, some true Microsofties, and that's about it. Almost everybody else uses them, and wants them to work; but isn't going to spend their leisure time posting on some Dell messageboard about it.
Of those groups, the hardcore gamers and the Mac-heads wouldn't give Dell the time of day if they were on fire(in aggregate, obviously there are gamers with Dells; and the Mini-9 hackintosh crew; but the more passionately you are a member of those groups, the less likely you are to be running a Dell), while the Microsofties can already get all the MS software they want from Dell, so they have no reason to complain. Linux/FOSS enthusiasts are pretty much the only ones I'd expect to show up.
So in other words, now we should pay attention to sales rates of Windows vs. Linux, not just return rates?
Oh noes, how could they!
This will put a serious dent in their excellent credibility track record..
I think you are missing the point. Dell says they are not receiving returns except at the same rate. He means that linux netbooks are being returned at the same rate as windows netbook returns. Now, Dell is the company that sells and accepts the returns. Microsoft has nothing to do with it. Microsoft has no first hand knowledge. Since they can't count Linux returns, as it has nothing to do with Windows returns, Microsoft would be clueless except maybe by receiving information from Microsoft funded reports.
Bottom line is that Dell is giving facts whereas Microsoft is giving conjecture.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
And here we see Microsoft making messy and untenable assertions to the detriment of its ostensibly valuable business partners. My charitable side is prone to thinking that these moves are just oblivious on Microsoft's part, but the side that's been reading Slashdot for a decade suggests that they still think they're too big to be affected by their own irked customers... and it's happy to see that notion countered more and more these days. Next slide.
The rates of sales are not relevant in that Microsoft is a monopoly, one convicted of criminal predatory practices, which forced hardware manufacturers into illegal contracts to exclude. That gave them the monopoly, and in case you don't know what a monopoly is and how hard it is to compete with a monopoly you might want to check up on that.
The only relevant statistic that I can see is one that tracks the rate of behavioral change as it relates to buying an alternative. Not in the number of sales but in the increase of sales of the alternative non-monopolistic products.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
That must be exactly why Microsoft has the astoundingly successful "You find it, you keep it" ad campaign going, with Dell and HP laptops prominently featured.
People who use Linux use it because they CHOOSE to. On the contrary most people who use Windows do so because they're forced to.
The OpenOffice recommendation has more than 100,000 upvotes. Why would 100,000 people who don't care show up on Dell's webpage to click on that arrow?
Because we all know that online ballots are never stuffed and each vote is always from a unique person...
That's a win for Microsoft, no matter how you spin it.
Well, maybe. The open source ecosystem has long since become large enough to be self-sustaining, so it's questionable how much it matters that Microsoft still has a majority of the market share. If MS went bankrupt tomorrow, it would be a minor win for Linux but mostly a huge win for Apple, and Apple's behavior as a company suggests strongly that they would be no less unpleasant as a near-monopoly than Microsoft currently is.
The important thing to me is that I have multiple free (in both senses) alternatives to MS and that those are not likely to go away in the foreseeable future. Would I like to buy a laptop without the Microsoft tax. Sure, but then, I pretty much already can, since I usually buy year-old off-lease corporate laptops at a steep discount -- being neither a hardcore gamer nor a videographer, most machines have been more than fast enough for everything else for several years now.
If the whole Free/Open Source Software movement was a battle for our freedom, we already won, and won decisively. The battle against Microsoft's very existence? Who cares? Odds are, Microsoft will be around for a long time to come, and waiting for it to die is like waiting for Apple or one of the *BSDs or any other stable niche offering to die: time better spent having actual fun and getting real work done.
Besides, it's not like Dell's products or their customer support are very good to begin with. When I can buy generic, standard laptop parts to build my own laptop as well as I can build my own desktop boxes, then I'll get excited. Until then, the token gestures of companies selling proprietary, closed hardware are really nothing to become overly concerned about.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
100,000 registered folks seems compelling to me, and most anyone listening, Dell. I tried to click the up arrow, but user-registration is required first.
Still, I think M$ forces Dell's & Asus' (etc.) hand by hidden fees & bulk-discounts related to the M$ tax.
Being grabbed and screaming to the cold reality that many people out there hate to be constrained to Windows.
People keep trying to explain what has become now pretty obvious: Linux is mainstream.
It is high time companies and people interested in computing wake up to this simple reality.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
A few billion of MS's profits. Well they went somewhere, just not to M$. And whether MS fanboys want to admit it or not what MS did is criminal.
Why bother
Which exact part of
we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux
is it that you have difficulty reading. What he's saying is that Windows machines return at the approximately same rate for technical problems as Linux machines return due to both technical problems and misunderstandings. This implies that if they can improve their communication then the return rate of Linux machines will be significantly lower than the return rate for Windows machines. To be honest I have difficulty working out why. Surely the hardware should be pretty much the same? Is it possible that the rate of malware infection at the beginning of a modern, up to date, Windows system's life is really high enough to account for the extra Windows returns?
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
> Firefox, OpenOffice.org and multimedia on Linux continue to suck big time.
No they don't. You're just trying to add to the mindless anti-Linux hysteria.
All of these are quite suitable for the average user and in many cases FAR
SUPERIOR to the default Lemming option. Linux multimedia software in
particular is used to bail out both Windows and MacOS from usability and
functionality issues.
Time to find a new FUD talking point. "Linux multi-media" is over in this respect.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Real trolls and flame bait artists take note: If you state your comment in a funny enough manor then all sins are forgiven. We, the mods, don't mod you down because we disagree or are offended, but because, well frankly you are boring and we're just trying to help people avoid the same old non creative crap. So go to comedy school and take some creative writing classes.
I can tell you why Dell isn't having the return issue, even though it will get me modded down by the zealots. Do you want to know why? It is actually quite simple: It is because Dell has the Linux Netbooks hidden, that's why! Are they on the front page? Nope. Are they on the first page you get when you type "Netbook" on their site? Nope again. And there is a REASON for that, and it is pretty damned smart if you ask me. The reason is that the ONLY way you are gonna get a Linux anything from Dell is if you know about them and go hunting for them. That means the customer A-knows EXACTLY what Linux is, and B- Is willing to go out of their way to get it.
This is why Dell can pull it off and retailers,. like say Walmart can't, or why I can't allow Linux anything to be displayed at my little shop. Because you have to go out of you way to find the Linux at Dell, with a retailer folks walk in off the street. You aren't gonna trip over Linux at Dell, whereas retail anybody can see it. Here is my experience with Linux-Folks see the lower price, go "oooh pretty!" and no matter how you try to steer them they end up going to Walmart, or Best Buy, or Staples and going "oohhhh sale!" and putting something in their cart with ZERO research. And without research the odds of getting something from a retailer like Walmart that works in Linux is less than 20%. Then they bring it back because the PC is "broken" and expect you to "fix it", which of course you can't. So you either burn the customer, who then spreads the word at what a shitty shop you have and soon you are out of business, or take the product back and eat the difference between the new price and what you can get for it used.
So while I am glad Dell can pull it off, there is a REASON why you won't see Linux at a retail outlet near you anytime in the near future. It is because the support for the devices found at the big three retail outlets, the above Best Buy, Staples, and Walmart, is piss poor at best. At my local supercenter I wrote down brands and looked them up and was looking at barely 20% "supported", if you call doing a CLI voodoo dance for hours and barely getting half functionality support. There is just too many items being sold at retail that have zero support from the vendor, and since Linux will never get a stable ABI, so vendors can 'write once, use forever" as they do with Windows, I just don't see that situation changing. It seems that many in the Linux community are "source code or nothing!" and therefor will get nothing, at least from most vendors of home products. So I'm glad for Dell, but that doesn't solve the "Linux stays a niche" problem, because Linux is hidden in the back of the Dell site.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
and Apple seems to not want to compete in the desktop space. macbook pro's and imacs are made of the same internal parts and Apple seems content selling the same PC at ridiculous mark ups to it's niche market. the way everything is integrated on the motherboard today and the fact that it's very easy to build a consumer level hackintosh it shouldn't be a big deal for Apple to sell a desktop system that's cheaper than the imac's laptop internals.
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
This is not specific to Dell, but Netbooks in general. The goal of the Netbook builders seem to be making them as cheap as possible and that is one of the many reasons why they choose free Linux over costly Windows. However, simply because they are making them as cheap as possible, they're also just shoddy computers and they get returned because of that. I have and likely always will be of the opinion that 99% of computer users don't care what OS they use as long as they can surf the web, check their e-mail, do their taxes, etc.
http://twitter.com/OLDTELEGRAM
Hardly worth the effort to reply but "What?" I don't think any of those words mean what you think they do.
In what way were the corporate convictions against MS "so-called"? They were, I assure you, quite real. Remember that a corporation can be convicted of a crime and no one go to jail. However fines are a very real sanction against a criminal corporation.
A political stunt no, not even close. MS was convicted of illegal restraint of trade and mis-use of a monopoly. Don't believe me look it up. I may not have the exact statutes that they violated but violate them they did. There is nothing "so-called" about them.
Why bother
Thank you. I love how the Linux guys just scream and shit over me because I am not following their "religion" of choice. I ask them: When was the last time you sold Linux at retail? never? Then how would you know squat about the average home user or their needs? I deal with customers 6 days a week (sometimes 7) so I know of which I am speaking. As for the earlier poster that wanted to know "what devices" well, only the three biggest sellers here according to the guy running the electronics desk at Walmart. They are, the Lexmark all in one (VERY hot seller, and Walgreen's refills for $10 so they are cheap to buy AND use now), the USB Wifi sticks(also VERY hot, as folks can set up their PC anywhere they want and add new ones without running wires) and the USB TV tuner (smoking hot, according to him with the laptop crowd).
Now tell me with a straight face that those devices are supported in Linux. Lexmark all in one? After hours of CLI voodoo I got one to print, kinda sorta, when it wasn't crashing. Never got scan or fax to do squat. USB Wifi cards? Good luck if you researched a rev d and they have switched to rev F without changing the box. Thos things are like a cracker jack box, you never know what you are gonna get! USB TV Tuners? BWA HA HA HA HA HA. See USB Wifi cards for the answer to THAT question.
Look, I want Linux to have a fighting chance. I remember the 80s when you could get Amiga or Atari or Apple and Am I ALL for competition. But based on my research and dealing with customers Linux just ain't there yet. Did you have to use CLI this week? Today? if the answer is "at all" then you can forget the home users, who often have trouble finding things in control panel, hence Win7 and "search everywhere". I can't even count the number of times I have had hardware boned doing an update on the various Linux distros I tried, I can't remember the last time I had that problem in Windows. Lastly without a stable ABI the home manufacturers will NEVER ever support you! Why should they? They aren't selling enterprise or server gear, therefor you are not worth keeping developers just for you or risking patent trolls by releasing their code. Is the Linux Foundation gonna indemnify them if they get hit by a patent troll over their code? Didn't think so.
So if it works for you, and you are willing to put in dozens if not hundreds of unpaid hours supporting your family? Fine and dandy. I am happy for you. My time is $75 an hour and good luck trying to get most customers to buy support contracts. See the hatred Best Buy gets for extended warranties as an example. The amount of work I would be required to do, and would be unable to charge the customer for, simply dwarfs the $89 for XP Home or $139 for XP Pro. I have already ordered Win7 HP and when SP1 comes out I will switch my customers over. Even if they raise the price to $150 it will still be cheaper than all the research and CLI I'd have to deal with selling Linux. Sorry, no sale.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I see the Linux trolls modded me down. That is funny as hell. Waste you mods baby, I got karma to burn yeah!
That does NOT change the simple facts. Here are the FACTS. FACT- The three biggest retailers-Staples, best Buy, Walmart USA, don't sell Linux. FACT-The reason is you are looking at less than 20% support for the popular items being sold in those stores. FACT-Updates often break Linux, requiring CLI. Go to any Ubuntu forum after a release to see this in action. Sound is especially problematic. This simply rarely happens with Windows. FACT- support for Linux will DESTROY any profits gained by the lower price. It is simply easier to tell your customer 'google name of device XP Driver' instead of giving them some huge CLI mess that has to be perfectly spelled and capitalized and could screw things up worse if not typed in perfectly. "Clicky clicky, next next next" is simply easier for home users. That is of course if there even IS a driver, with in Linux is iffy if you don't research your ass off. Even Linux users will tell you to research your purchases. Do you HONESTLY think Windows users will research every purchase? Really?
So mod away baby, that does not change the facts. Linux is simply not ready for home users. It has too much CLI, it requires too much work to repair, too much research before making purchases, and then thanks to hardware revs even with research you may get boned. The simple fact is the $89 for XP Home or $139 for XP Pro 32/64 is simply cheaper than Linux, unless your hours of time are worthless. It isn't some conspiracy, or MSFT backing money trucks up to every retailer in America, it is simply economics. If the only users you get are those will to research and use CLI, then no problem. But retailers have found those users don't actually BUY retail, they buy online or build themselves. So why should they kill themselves and raise their costs for those that don't buy from them? Windows WORKS for home users and Linux DON'T. Sorry,but that is reality. No Sale.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Coreboot is hard, but Dell has the bad habit of installing thousands of software on every machine it sells. Adding Firefox and OpenOffice to the list seems pretty straightforward. OpenOffice and Firefox marketshare are far bigger than the computer enthusiast. Many people know that open office is the "Microsoft Office that is free". The fact that Dell leaves so many clients unsatisfied for a feature that is easy to add is a strong indication that the issues are contractual and commercial, not technical.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Uh... I run an Exchange server, and every WinMo phone in the office is happily accessing it. Calendar, contacts, and everything.
If you are a major computer distributor, you have more than enough clout to demand the company who supplies your sound chips give you Linux drivers. Saying Dell can't do that is bullshit.