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SSN Overlap With Micronesia Causes Trouble For Woman
stevel writes "Holly Ramer, who lives in Concord, NH, has never been to the Federated States of Micronesia, but debt collectors dun her mercilessly for unpaid loans taken out by a small business owner in that Pacific island nation. Why? Micronesia and other countries in the region have their own Social Security Administrations which gave out numbers to residents applying for US disaster relief loans. The catch is that the Micronesian SSNs have fewer digits than the nine-digit US version, and when credit bureaus entered these into their database, they padded them out with zeros on the front. These numbers then matched innocent US citizens with SSNs beginning with zeroes, as many in northern New England do. The credit bureaus say to call the Social Security Administration, the SSA says call the credit bureaus, the FTC says they can't help, and nobody is taking responsibility for the confusion."
And when they keep calling you at your job, and insist on speaking to your boss, and call your family, and eventually physically show up at your door, what then?
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Fuck you! i do not owe you any money so you sort it out, it is not my problem
Actually if you wanted to be a real dick you could sue the collection agencies rather easily and collect at least $1,000 per violation. I would recommend that the people who are receiving these calls read up on the 'Fair Debt Collection Practices Act'. Send a cease and desist order to the debt collector as provided for by the FDCPA and when they call you again file suit. Wait a few months and cash your check.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
The credit reporting agencies are redistributing negative information they _know_ is untrue. Why isn't this defamation or liable/slander (whichever is the written one)?
It seems like the credit agencies have managed to get some sort of immunity to "it costs money to lie" principle.
Where does this protection come from?
I agree that it has nothing to do with the social security system, since the extra-national numbers don't actually match (it's the credit reporting system that is forcing the reporting entity to "pad" the number with leading zeros) and are completely out of their control.
Like most of our problems in the U.S.A. there is a lack of accountability and personal and/or corporate responsibility at its core.
Eventually someone is going to revolt against someone somewhere.
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
In Micronesia, they gave out short SSNs. In Polynesia, they would have looked like x^2+4x-3.
I'd live for that day.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
And when they keep calling you at your job, and insist on speaking to your boss, and call your family, and eventually physically show up at your door, what then?
Then you send them a cease and desist order as provided for by the FDCPA (fair debt collection practices act). If they are stupid enough to continue collection efforts after receiving it then you file suit against them in Federal court and collect $1,000 for each violation. They'll soon stop calling you when they realize that each phone call is going to cost them a thousand bucks.
What debt collector shows up at your door anyways? I've never heard of that. If they had the balls to try that with me I'd ask them once nicely to get off my property and if they declined I would "encourage" them to leave with more forceful measures.
Remember that a debt collector has no power or authority over you. Their main weapon is intimidation. They are counting on scaring you into paying them money and will use all manner of threats and lies to achieve this end. Other than that their only possible remedy is to sue you. This is an empty threat for the most part though because they almost always lack the documentation that would be required to win a lawsuit. They bank on collecting default judgments when the defendants fail to appear and aren't prepared to deal with someone shows up and contests the matter.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I got a new wireless phone a year ago. It came with daily calls from collection agencies for people I've never heard of. Some were annoying automated calls. When called by live people, I told them they had the wrong number and to please update their database. Of course they didn't. Finally took a letter to the agencies legal departments to get them to stop.
I was staying at a (rental) cabin in the woods this past weekend and got a call from a collection agency on the cabin's landline. And no, they were calling for a random person, not they owner of the cabin (or me).
As near as I can tell, collection agencies use the following strategy when seeking debtors: call every number in the country till they find the person they're looking for.
[Insert pithy quote here]
That really can be effective. My household kept receiving calls from one collection agency that had our phone number (nothing to do with SSNs, identity theft, etc., but still annoying, especially since it was usually an automated call). For whatever reason, they kept calling even after we told them that the person they were looking for no longer used our number. So, I mailed off a FDCPA Sec. 805(c) demand that they cease communication with us.
The next time they called (with a real person fortunately for them), I pointed out that I had sent a written demand that they stop calling and that their call was in violation of the FDCPA. I didn't have to be mean...the calls stopped cold.
Instead of insulting a poor call-center rep, if a collection agency is trying to charge for a debt that's not yours, you need to do the following. (note: this only applies if you are in the USA)
1- Ask their address. They are legally obligated to give it to you.
2- Write a letter to them, invoking the Fair Collection Practices Act and demanding that they cease collections
3- If they can't prove the debt is yours, they must cease collecting and inform the credit bureaus of this.
4- There is no four
No sig for the moment.
Brandishing a firearm on your own property when someone refuses to leave = defense of property in almost every state in the Union.
Let us live so that when we come to die, even the undertaker will be sorry -- Mark Twain
Instead of insulting a poor call-center rep
"poor call-center rep"? They are all scumbags. Go watch the movie 'In Debt We Trust'. Go read collections 101 and learn how they are trained. They are all miserable lying bastards who are willing to break the law in order to collect a quick buck. They don't deserve an ounce of sympathy and if they make the mistake of calling me they are going to hear every four letter word in the English language.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
File suit? Oh yeah, that'll cost you less than $1k... : /
A 1k judgement falls under small claims court. That doesn't require a lawyer and it's cheap as hell in terms of fees.
pull my finger
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
If you don't admit to being the debtor they're calling about, they will not give you the opportunity to sue them.
That's why I don't confirm or deny that I'm the debtor. It should go like this:
"Hello, may I speak to Joe Deadbeat?"
"Who is this?"
"May I speak to Joe Deadbeat?"
"Who is this?"
Do this long enough and eventually you'll get some moron that assumes you are the debtor. They will then start trying to collect from you. At this point it isn't real hard to get an address out of them.
For extra points record the phone call (if legal to do so in your state) and hope they are stupid enough to disclose some detail about Joe Deadbeats account. Then track down Joe Deadbeat yourself and offer him the tape so he can sue them for this disclosure. Assuming that you never claimed to be Joe Deadbeat you've broken no laws by letting them hang themselves.
I actually did this once after a collection agency refused to take the hint that my recently assigned phone number didn't belong to the man they were looking for. I started recording their calls and eventually some jackass told me the amount that was owed on the account. I located Joe Deadbeat myself and gave him the recording. He sued them and won a sizable settlement and an agreement that they'd write off the debt.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
The linked article said that there are potentially 130,000+ potential matches when the Micronesian SSNs are padded out with zeros to form 9-digit US SSNs. It probably won't be too long before some enterprising lawyer realizes that these 130,000 people form a class and files class action lawsuits against credit bureaus, reporting agencies, and any other firms which (a) have a few bucks and (b) attempt to collect from the wrong people.
Well, if it were possible to get legislation that puts credit bureaus acting within the U.S. under the domain of the FTC
Yeah, if only there was legislation in place that did that. Imagine how lucky we'd be if Congress had passed it way back in 1970......
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I had one do that after threatening to kill me on the phone. I called the cops and they got there as he was trying to break in. The cop jumped a low brick wall which is around the apartment complex ran to my door and beat the shit out of him.
I'd been playing "Fuck the scammer/telemarketer" by giving bogus CC's, check routing numbers, etc.
Points:
1 point per minute you keep them from calling other people
10 points per fake CC given (enough fake numbers causes red flags)
10 points per fake bank routing +account number (ditto)
100 points for a valid call back number
500 points for a traceable company name from the call back number.
1000 points for death threats
FTW for actual physical encounters.
You have to record the call. You should duplicated the recording BEFORE giving it to the prosecutors office as the asshats passed it around and claim to have lost it.
They just use shotgun tactics to try and get a response, calling every number that they can find ever associated with a person. They aren't real good about taking hints either. At work (state university) we periodically get calls for someone that used to work there a LONG time ago. Now never mind they aren't supposed to be calling work, but he's not there. None the less they try to get information on him. Usually they'll go away when I say "I'm sorry, we can't give out any information." However there was one who was pretty stupid about it. More or less went like this:
Me: "He doesn't work here any more, hasn't for a long time, since before I was here."
They: "Well where is he now?"
Me: "I don't know, and even if I did I can't give you employee information, only HR can do that."
They: "Will they tell us where he is?"
Me: "Nope, they'll tell you his dates of employment."
They: "We need to know how to get a hold of him now, where we can reach him."
Me: "Well sorry, we can't help you."
They: "You have to tell us where he is, or get us someone who can."
Me: "I have to? Ok hang on a moment I'll need to conference in the general counsel, they'll need to be involved if you are making a legal claim."
At that point they immediately hung up. Guess they didn't want to talk to the lawyers. What amazed me was the tone and attitude of they had of "You have to help us do our job or else." Else what asshole?
One time a lawyer left a long message on the machine for them trying to get them to call her before court the following day (where I assume she got a default judgement, since I doubt they knew or cared about it). I was sorely tempted to either call her and either (a) imitate them and call her nasty names, or (b) ask to join her lawsuit for the time I've spent dealing with their many collection calls.
The automated ones are the worst. If you ignore them they just keep calling. So I have to spend time calling them and carefully explaining how someone can actually move to a new residence. It can take a while for them to understand that concept.
Brandishing isn't deadly force. Shooting them is.
Use your brain you fucking moron. What are you going to do if you "brandish" it and they call your bluff and still refuse to leave? Worse yet, what are you going to do if they make a grab for it? Shoot them? Have fun explaining to the jury why you escalated the situation to one of life and death when your life wasn't in danger to begin with.
I'm as pro-gun as they come but if I was on your jury I'd convict your ass in a heartbeat if that was the way it went down. A firearm is a last resort, intended for situations where the choice is kill or be killed.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
>>>This is a civilized country with civilized rules
Really?
Then how come on of my local citizens, who spied a thief trying to steal his car, and hit said thief over the head with a bat to stop him, was arrested by the policy *on his own property*? Why is the thief now suing the homeowner for medical damages?
This is not a civilized society when thieves are protected while homeowners trying to protect their homes/cars/yards are jailed and later sued. A civilized society doesn't take the view that homeowners should just quietly hide, while the thief drives-off with the car or other personal possessions. That's an anarchist society.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
When I was younger, I developed the habit of answering the phone, "Mort's morgue - you stab 'em, we slab 'em!" and other sophomoric phrases. After a while, I made a conscious effort to come up with new and interesting tag lines when answering the phone.
My friends and family expected wierd responses when they called. Debt collectors didn't. Sometimes they'd just hang up. Other times they'd apologize for the wrong number. But then some got downright nasty.
Having a relative run into debt problems, there was a period of time of about 6 months when I would receive calls from debt collectors on a regular basis. They always pretended to be someone else - usually someone with authority. In some cases, they impersonated the police, which was illegal.
But it just so happens that one time, I answered, "Dominoes Pizza..." And instead of a familiar family member's voice, it's the debt collector, impersonating a Chicago police officer. So I played along, taking his order (I had worked at pizza places before).
Now, this was after the invention of caller ID. And reverse-lookups on the Internet. And I happened to know that pizza stores routinely re-route orders to another store if the address doesn't fall within their delivery area. I'll leave as an exercise for the reader just what happened next.
Needless to say, they stopped calling.
I can't help but think that at least once, the sweatshop employees at a debt collection agency got a much needed pizza party, courtesy the employee who had the balls to impersonate a Chicago cop.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
1 point per minute you keep them from calling other people.
How many points for forwarding them to the last guy that called you?
Someone with the same last name but not a member of my family claimed our address and phone number as hers. We got her collection calls and repo men looking for the car she didn't pay for. The repo men showed up in person.
They refused to believe she didn't live here. They were quite stunned when I told them to shut up and start suing.
I wish that would work for me. I have one of the more common last names in the U.S.. I live in an apartment complex with over 1,000 apartments. There is a couple with the same last name in the complex who have had their telephone disconnected. There are some creditors who call for them. The problem is that every three months or so, the debt gets passed down the line to the next debt collector. When the calls start, I tell them that I don't know either of these people. They are very polite and tell me that they will take my number off their records. The calls stop and in 2 to 3 months start again from a different collection agency.
I know how this happens. There is a company that sells information to track people down. This company lists my wife and I as possible relatives of this couple. What is really funny about this company is that even though I am part of a large family, the only people they list as my possible relatives is this guy and my father. My father has been dead for 10 years. They don't even list my wife as one of my relatives, although they list her as related to this guy.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
...if they make the mistake of calling me they are going to hear every four letter word in the English language.
There are some words one just can't justify spewing at even the lowest scum. Words like GOTO.
Yep, let the legal system deal with it. The worst a debt collector can do is take you to court only to find out they screwed up. You may counter sue at this point depending on the laws of your nation.
Forceful? Terrible idea. When it goes to court they get to say that you were the belligerent party and their side was "only defending itself". You're better off calling the cops to have them escorted off. First rule of dealing with debt collectors is to let them make the mistakes.
Their only recourse is to sue you and the onus is on the debt collector to prove you owe them money. All you need to do is prove that you are not who they say you are. Never get intimidated, in Australia a debt collector is not permitted to threaten or deceive in any communications as this would result in the revocation of their license and probably charges being made against the companies directors.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
With private people, you can do even funnier things.
Assume you have two different men calling you in anger, thinking you're someone else. (May happen when someone banged what they think is their girl, and they also think you're the one.)
Then make each one as angry as you can, offer him to meet in the local gay neighborhood, and beat the shit out of him. At this point, you must have him thinking that he will actually beat the shit out of you.
Tell them both where to meet, and that your identification is a flower in a button hole, or something as camp as possible.
Now you just have to go to a café nearby, watch them beat each other, and call the cops, saying that there is a gay couple fighting on the other side of the street.
(But of course do not let the police find out that you're the caller, or who you are.)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Forceful? Terrible idea. When it goes to court they get to say that you were the belligerent party and their side was "only defending itself". You're better off calling the cops to have them escorted off. First rule of dealing with debt collectors is to let them make the mistakes.
In my state you are allowed to use physical force to remove a trespasser from your property. They'd have a tough time claiming that you were the belligerent party on your own property.
I know someone who manhandled a cable company employee out of his house and onto the street after the employee refused to leave when asked to do so. The cable guy called the cops to report this "assault" and was eventually arrested by them when they determined that he had been asked to leave the residence and declined to do so.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
when you get a automated call just play this over the phone... http://www.payphone-directory.org/sounds/wav/verizon/disconnect.wav
They were quite stunned when I told them to shut up and start suing.
Yeah, I love this strategy. I was hassled by an agency once that put at the bottom of their initial contact letter "if you do not respond within 14 days we will instruct our lawyers to recover this debt in court." I wrote a response, "Go ahead. Make my day."
Funnily enough, I never heard anything else from them. 6 months later, another agency starts trying to collect...
And when you find you can't get a loan / get a mortgage / have other credit problems because of this mistaken identity getting entered into a central credit agency that your bank refers to?
It happened to me: Experian got information wrong about me and they refused to change my records until I took a train to London to speak to the council officers who kindly agreed to speak to Experian on the phone, and explained that they held incorrect records about me. Local government officials, thank you. Experian - dodgy commercial operation that doesn't care about people.
To stop him stealing it. Beacause it's my fucking car, that I bought with my fucking money that I fucking earned.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
If you have enough sense to browse the comments, you'll find common themes:
1. The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act is pretty effective at helping you deal with collectors, so go read the law.
2. You can usually get a good response by writing a letter (and you'll see why if you read the law). At the minimum you can make them comply with a "do not call me" request and make them correspond by letter.
I will add a bit of my own wisdom. Find out the laws in your state and record your telephone. I happen to be in a "one party knows" state, so I can record my calls without saying. I always ask the state the collector is in and look it up to see if it is compatible (otherwise you may need to inform them if you want to use the recordings in court).
Review your telephone recordings. Sometimes collectors will say things that don't mean quite what you think when you are on the line and under stress. I found reviewing the recordings left me with "ah ha" moments, especially when I took the conversation in the context of the FDCPA.
Despite some other commentor's opinions it was my experience that debt collectors are often professional thugs. It makes sense, thugs have to work somewhere too, and you do what you are good at.
If you have to pay a collector (I owed for a legitimate claim one time when there was a billing mistake), I recommend a one-time use credit card number. It can't be double billed if you set a limit at the correct amount. Believe me, you don't want to try to collect from a collector who owes you money because they screwed up. You can be successful, but you won't enjoy it.
Remember, you want to be polite but firm. You want your recorded voice (remember, you're going to be taping this) to sound reasonable. If you take this collector to court, you want them to be the asshole. You want the judge to get pissed on your behalf and zing them with a judgment.