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SSN Overlap With Micronesia Causes Trouble For Woman
stevel writes "Holly Ramer, who lives in Concord, NH, has never been to the Federated States of Micronesia, but debt collectors dun her mercilessly for unpaid loans taken out by a small business owner in that Pacific island nation. Why? Micronesia and other countries in the region have their own Social Security Administrations which gave out numbers to residents applying for US disaster relief loans. The catch is that the Micronesian SSNs have fewer digits than the nine-digit US version, and when credit bureaus entered these into their database, they padded them out with zeros on the front. These numbers then matched innocent US citizens with SSNs beginning with zeroes, as many in northern New England do. The credit bureaus say to call the Social Security Administration, the SSA says call the credit bureaus, the FTC says they can't help, and nobody is taking responsibility for the confusion."
And when they keep calling you at your job, and insist on speaking to your boss, and call your family, and eventually physically show up at your door, what then?
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Fuck you! i do not owe you any money so you sort it out, it is not my problem
Actually if you wanted to be a real dick you could sue the collection agencies rather easily and collect at least $1,000 per violation. I would recommend that the people who are receiving these calls read up on the 'Fair Debt Collection Practices Act'. Send a cease and desist order to the debt collector as provided for by the FDCPA and when they call you again file suit. Wait a few months and cash your check.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
The credit reporting agencies are redistributing negative information they _know_ is untrue. Why isn't this defamation or liable/slander (whichever is the written one)?
It seems like the credit agencies have managed to get some sort of immunity to "it costs money to lie" principle.
Where does this protection come from?
I agree that it has nothing to do with the social security system, since the extra-national numbers don't actually match (it's the credit reporting system that is forcing the reporting entity to "pad" the number with leading zeros) and are completely out of their control.
Like most of our problems in the U.S.A. there is a lack of accountability and personal and/or corporate responsibility at its core.
Eventually someone is going to revolt against someone somewhere.
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
If they keep calling you and asking you to pay them, it automatically becomes your problem, even if it isn't supposed to be.
I wonder if one could report them for extortion. Especially if they keep it up after you have provided reasonable evidence that you don't owe them money.
In Micronesia, they gave out short SSNs. In Polynesia, they would have looked like x^2+4x-3.
All this, caused by someone too lazy to add a "if (country == USA)" statement.
I'd live for that day.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
looks like the data (ssn) needs a little metadata (issuing authority, distinguished name) in order to make it work.
And when they keep calling you at your job, and insist on speaking to your boss, and call your family, and eventually physically show up at your door, what then?
Then you send them a cease and desist order as provided for by the FDCPA (fair debt collection practices act). If they are stupid enough to continue collection efforts after receiving it then you file suit against them in Federal court and collect $1,000 for each violation. They'll soon stop calling you when they realize that each phone call is going to cost them a thousand bucks.
What debt collector shows up at your door anyways? I've never heard of that. If they had the balls to try that with me I'd ask them once nicely to get off my property and if they declined I would "encourage" them to leave with more forceful measures.
Remember that a debt collector has no power or authority over you. Their main weapon is intimidation. They are counting on scaring you into paying them money and will use all manner of threats and lies to achieve this end. Other than that their only possible remedy is to sue you. This is an empty threat for the most part though because they almost always lack the documentation that would be required to win a lawsuit. They bank on collecting default judgments when the defendants fail to appear and aren't prepared to deal with someone shows up and contests the matter.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
It's america. Guns man :D
I got a new wireless phone a year ago. It came with daily calls from collection agencies for people I've never heard of. Some were annoying automated calls. When called by live people, I told them they had the wrong number and to please update their database. Of course they didn't. Finally took a letter to the agencies legal departments to get them to stop.
I was staying at a (rental) cabin in the woods this past weekend and got a call from a collection agency on the cabin's landline. And no, they were calling for a random person, not they owner of the cabin (or me).
As near as I can tell, collection agencies use the following strategy when seeking debtors: call every number in the country till they find the person they're looking for.
[Insert pithy quote here]
I was born in New York and have a 081- SSN. I think it's time to take out a bunch of Federal loans and blame some lazy Micronesian for failing to repay them. Then I can take the loan money and buy kilos of cocaine^Hdollar bills with the money, resell the dollars and really make some good cash.
1. Be born in the North Eastern United States
2. Take out loan
3. Exploit confused system that can't separate foreigners from natural citizens
4. ???
5. Profit!
from personal experience, i can tell you that this does not work. the C&D order will simply be returned to sender because the collection agencies know not to sign for certified mail.
Let them refuse the C&D letter. I'll include that fact in my lawsuit. Judges don't look favorably upon those that attempt to duck legal papers/service. They are just putting another nail in their coffin if they do this.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
"...the loud dad noise"
So you will fart on them?
That really can be effective. My household kept receiving calls from one collection agency that had our phone number (nothing to do with SSNs, identity theft, etc., but still annoying, especially since it was usually an automated call). For whatever reason, they kept calling even after we told them that the person they were looking for no longer used our number. So, I mailed off a FDCPA Sec. 805(c) demand that they cease communication with us.
The next time they called (with a real person fortunately for them), I pointed out that I had sent a written demand that they stop calling and that their call was in violation of the FDCPA. I didn't have to be mean...the calls stopped cold.
Instead of insulting a poor call-center rep, if a collection agency is trying to charge for a debt that's not yours, you need to do the following. (note: this only applies if you are in the USA)
1- Ask their address. They are legally obligated to give it to you.
2- Write a letter to them, invoking the Fair Collection Practices Act and demanding that they cease collections
3- If they can't prove the debt is yours, they must cease collecting and inform the credit bureaus of this.
4- There is no four
No sig for the moment.
Brandishing a firearm on your own property when someone refuses to leave = defense of property in almost every state in the Union.
Let us live so that when we come to die, even the undertaker will be sorry -- Mark Twain
you sue them for violations of the Fair Debt Collection Practice Act and collect your statutory damages.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Instead of insulting a poor call-center rep
"poor call-center rep"? They are all scumbags. Go watch the movie 'In Debt We Trust'. Go read collections 101 and learn how they are trained. They are all miserable lying bastards who are willing to break the law in order to collect a quick buck. They don't deserve an ounce of sympathy and if they make the mistake of calling me they are going to hear every four letter word in the English language.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
File suit? Oh yeah, that'll cost you less than $1k... : /
A 1k judgement falls under small claims court. That doesn't require a lawyer and it's cheap as hell in terms of fees.
pull my finger
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
The SSA simply needs to announce that from next January, all new SSNs issued will be 22+ digits long and will be identical for the first or last 9 digits. They wouldn't have to do it, but it would force lots of places to plan for a future change. They could also start putting in a checksum on some new cards or throwing in letters. Remember the common mod 10 checksum used for things like credit cards was designed to work with EBCDIC letters.
If you don't admit to being the debtor they're calling about, they will not give you the opportunity to sue them.
That's why I don't confirm or deny that I'm the debtor. It should go like this:
"Hello, may I speak to Joe Deadbeat?"
"Who is this?"
"May I speak to Joe Deadbeat?"
"Who is this?"
Do this long enough and eventually you'll get some moron that assumes you are the debtor. They will then start trying to collect from you. At this point it isn't real hard to get an address out of them.
For extra points record the phone call (if legal to do so in your state) and hope they are stupid enough to disclose some detail about Joe Deadbeats account. Then track down Joe Deadbeat yourself and offer him the tape so he can sue them for this disclosure. Assuming that you never claimed to be Joe Deadbeat you've broken no laws by letting them hang themselves.
I actually did this once after a collection agency refused to take the hint that my recently assigned phone number didn't belong to the man they were looking for. I started recording their calls and eventually some jackass told me the amount that was owed on the account. I located Joe Deadbeat myself and gave him the recording. He sued them and won a sizable settlement and an agreement that they'd write off the debt.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
The linked article said that there are potentially 130,000+ potential matches when the Micronesian SSNs are padded out with zeros to form 9-digit US SSNs. It probably won't be too long before some enterprising lawyer realizes that these 130,000 people form a class and files class action lawsuits against credit bureaus, reporting agencies, and any other firms which (a) have a few bucks and (b) attempt to collect from the wrong people.
Well, if it were possible to get legislation that puts credit bureaus acting within the U.S. under the domain of the FTC
Yeah, if only there was legislation in place that did that. Imagine how lucky we'd be if Congress had passed it way back in 1970......
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Brandishing a firearm on your own property when someone refuses to leave = defense of property in almost every state in the Union.
Umm, you might want to be careful there. In several states you are limited to "physical force" to deal with a trespasser. "Deadly force" can only be employed if your life is in danger or they actually break into your residence. I would love the chance to throw a debt collector off my property but I think I'd leave the firearms out of it.
Besides, it's much more fun to watch them puking their guts out after you pepper spray them than it is to watch them bleed to death on your front lawn ;)
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Wait for them to step inside and then shoot them. After all, they were stalkers.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is usually crucified.
You should always own two guns, one registered, the other to plant on the dead guy.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
I had one do that after threatening to kill me on the phone. I called the cops and they got there as he was trying to break in. The cop jumped a low brick wall which is around the apartment complex ran to my door and beat the shit out of him.
I'd been playing "Fuck the scammer/telemarketer" by giving bogus CC's, check routing numbers, etc.
Points:
1 point per minute you keep them from calling other people
10 points per fake CC given (enough fake numbers causes red flags)
10 points per fake bank routing +account number (ditto)
100 points for a valid call back number
500 points for a traceable company name from the call back number.
1000 points for death threats
FTW for actual physical encounters.
You have to record the call. You should duplicated the recording BEFORE giving it to the prosecutors office as the asshats passed it around and claim to have lost it.
They just use shotgun tactics to try and get a response, calling every number that they can find ever associated with a person. They aren't real good about taking hints either. At work (state university) we periodically get calls for someone that used to work there a LONG time ago. Now never mind they aren't supposed to be calling work, but he's not there. None the less they try to get information on him. Usually they'll go away when I say "I'm sorry, we can't give out any information." However there was one who was pretty stupid about it. More or less went like this:
Me: "He doesn't work here any more, hasn't for a long time, since before I was here."
They: "Well where is he now?"
Me: "I don't know, and even if I did I can't give you employee information, only HR can do that."
They: "Will they tell us where he is?"
Me: "Nope, they'll tell you his dates of employment."
They: "We need to know how to get a hold of him now, where we can reach him."
Me: "Well sorry, we can't help you."
They: "You have to tell us where he is, or get us someone who can."
Me: "I have to? Ok hang on a moment I'll need to conference in the general counsel, they'll need to be involved if you are making a legal claim."
At that point they immediately hung up. Guess they didn't want to talk to the lawyers. What amazed me was the tone and attitude of they had of "You have to help us do our job or else." Else what asshole?
One time a lawyer left a long message on the machine for them trying to get them to call her before court the following day (where I assume she got a default judgement, since I doubt they knew or cared about it). I was sorely tempted to either call her and either (a) imitate them and call her nasty names, or (b) ask to join her lawsuit for the time I've spent dealing with their many collection calls.
The automated ones are the worst. If you ignore them they just keep calling. So I have to spend time calling them and carefully explaining how someone can actually move to a new residence. It can take a while for them to understand that concept.
Then you keep them on the line as long as possible, tell them "please hold", set them on hold, and forget about them for a few hours, so they will waste as many international calling minutes as possible.
Oh, yes, and add their phone number to your call blocking list, so they can't call you anymore.
Or just say "I'm not paying" and hang up abruptly, as soon as they call you.
If they call back, "Calls from your organization are harassment, don't call me again" [CLICK]
It's annoying, but they should stop eventually.
yeah, you need a "beware of the doorbell" sign as well to make it legal.
>>>In several states you are limited to "physical force" to deal with a trespasser
Right. And then the criminal sues you because you broke his arm or leg or whatever, as is happening with a local Pennsylvanian who hit a thief with a bat, to stop him from stealing his truck. The police arrested the homeowner, and the criminal is suing for medical expenses.
Us poor citizens just can't win in this damn government. Time to craft a new one IMHO.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Brandishing isn't deadly force. Shooting them is.
Use your brain you fucking moron. What are you going to do if you "brandish" it and they call your bluff and still refuse to leave? Worse yet, what are you going to do if they make a grab for it? Shoot them? Have fun explaining to the jury why you escalated the situation to one of life and death when your life wasn't in danger to begin with.
I'm as pro-gun as they come but if I was on your jury I'd convict your ass in a heartbeat if that was the way it went down. A firearm is a last resort, intended for situations where the choice is kill or be killed.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
>>>This is a civilized country with civilized rules
Really?
Then how come on of my local citizens, who spied a thief trying to steal his car, and hit said thief over the head with a bat to stop him, was arrested by the policy *on his own property*? Why is the thief now suing the homeowner for medical damages?
This is not a civilized society when thieves are protected while homeowners trying to protect their homes/cars/yards are jailed and later sued. A civilized society doesn't take the view that homeowners should just quietly hide, while the thief drives-off with the car or other personal possessions. That's an anarchist society.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Brandishing a firearm on your own property = absolutely nothing in almost every state in the Union.
Actually firing that weapon at someone in much of anything other than the defense of your life = murder or attempted murder. You haven't the right to respond to misdemeanors with deadly force.
Brandishing a firearm in any situation where you don't intend to fire = Darwin award candidate. Whoever you pointed it at has a legitimate fear for his life. If he isn't knowingly engaged in a crime at the time, he can legally kill you in self defense. Even on your own property.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
"Oh, and in case you weren't aware, any weapon you have is several times more likely to be used AGAINST you in a crime than BY you to prevent one. Good luck, and happy hunting."
Spoken like a true anti-gun nut, Got a link to that study? I doubt it exists.
I won't even bother to explain about the sanctity of the home and the concepts of self defense, you wont bother to listen.
Oh, And Good Luck getting the burglar or rapist to wait while you call the cops and wait for them to arrive.
Right. And then the criminal sues you because you broke his arm or leg or whatever, as is happening with a local Pennsylvanian who hit a thief with a bat, to stop him from stealing his truck. The police arrested the homeowner, and the criminal is suing for medical expenses.
If the police arrested the man there's more to the story than meets the eye. None of the cops that I've met want to arrest a taxpayer who defended themselves against a scumbag. If they did it then I suspect they had reason.
Regarding the lawsuit, I'd say "bring it on". I've been in front of juries before and I'd take my chances with one if I was being sued by some criminal thug. I'd either win the lawsuit or I'd spend every last penny of my money on legal expenses and then file bankruptcy. Of course I'm a spiteful SOB like that ;)
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Then how come on of my local citizens, who spied a thief trying to steal his car, and hit said thief over the head with a bat to stop him, was arrested by the policy *on his own property*? Why is the thief now suing the homeowner for medical damages?
Because he hit the thief over the head with a bat to stop him from stealing a car. That is an anarchist society.
Protecting property is hardly justification for risking someone's life, thief or no thief. Civilized people know that, which is why our civilized rules say he should be arrested.
Not using debt doesn't help when the idiots are assigning someone else's debt to you...
I just realized that there is not much of a space for unique SSN's. 9 digits gives a maximum of 1 billion numbers. However, not every number is actually used. I assume that there must at least be a control number to check if SSN can be valid, similar to how credit cards / ISBN work. There could also be regional prefixes, similar to IP addresses (e.g. 111 = New York, 999 = California or something like that). etc. This would significantly reduce the number space.
Even if that's not the case, the population of US is ~ 300 million. There must have been more than 1 billion people who have lived/still living since the SSNs were first introduced.
My question is, how did US not run out of unique numbers? Do SSNs get reused?
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
When I was younger, I developed the habit of answering the phone, "Mort's morgue - you stab 'em, we slab 'em!" and other sophomoric phrases. After a while, I made a conscious effort to come up with new and interesting tag lines when answering the phone.
My friends and family expected wierd responses when they called. Debt collectors didn't. Sometimes they'd just hang up. Other times they'd apologize for the wrong number. But then some got downright nasty.
Having a relative run into debt problems, there was a period of time of about 6 months when I would receive calls from debt collectors on a regular basis. They always pretended to be someone else - usually someone with authority. In some cases, they impersonated the police, which was illegal.
But it just so happens that one time, I answered, "Dominoes Pizza..." And instead of a familiar family member's voice, it's the debt collector, impersonating a Chicago police officer. So I played along, taking his order (I had worked at pizza places before).
Now, this was after the invention of caller ID. And reverse-lookups on the Internet. And I happened to know that pizza stores routinely re-route orders to another store if the address doesn't fall within their delivery area. I'll leave as an exercise for the reader just what happened next.
Needless to say, they stopped calling.
I can't help but think that at least once, the sweatshop employees at a debt collection agency got a much needed pizza party, courtesy the employee who had the balls to impersonate a Chicago cop.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Just let them know that
"This phone call is being recorded for legal liability purposes."
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Protecting property shouldn't be necessary at all. Once someone is trying to steal my belongings, they have waived any rights to safety they might have had. To give the criminal rights while they are committing a crime is to remove all rights from the victim. That is not just.
But I have known for many years that there is no justice in the United States.
You only have to do that if you live in a so-called "two party" state, wherein all parties to the call need to consent to the recording. Most states are "one party" states, where only one party (i.e: you) needs to consent.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Wow that sucks. I wish the SSA here in the US would make a notice, something along the lines of "Numbers A through Z are affected." Just so we know if we are at risk for being harassed.
Debt collectors don't even care who they get the money from, as long as they get it. For example, when I was a kid my siblings and I had health insurance from my mother's job. She used to just bring my card to the doctor's office because, as far as she was concerned, our claims were all the same (different than hers).
When I turned 20 a collection agency called my house trying to tell me that I owed $500 to the Where I Live Medical Group. I asked her for details about the charges, and they all turned out to be hospital visits made in my name. They were all about 5 years old. I tried to explain to her that there must be a mistake, but what she said next was a real kicker: "Mr Lastname, aren't you going to take responsibility for your daughters medical bills?" I freaked out (I have no kids) and asked her what she was talking about. She said the name that was filed under patient care was "Mysister Lastname". She thought that my sister was my daughter, just because we had the same last name. She didn't even look at the DOB.
So my mom took my sister to the hospital five years ago with my insurance card, and didn't pay the bill. Then the hospital hunted me down and tried to tell me that my sister was my daughter and I was legally obligated to pay the bill. I asked her to look at the DOB for the patient and myself, and all of a sudden her demeanor changed (she must have realized she screwed up). The worst bit was that she started demanding to know how to get in contact with my parents, she was very aggressive. I called her a cunt and told her to fuck off. Most women who want money from me respond to that.
I just ignored the letters and phone calls until they went away, but the whole thing is fucked up if you think about it. I mean, shouldn't someone have noticed that the names on the forms don't match the name on the card, let alone the blood type and sex type? Birth date too now that I think about it.
The "credit" required to buy a house or even a new car is a lot less than the credit needed to buy a new computer system or household appliances. Collateral worth repossessing means a lot more to creditors than your credit score. Credit score is is just a way to justify the excessive interest rates they want to apply. Buying real estate is easy. As for buying a new car? What are you thinking?! But I will say that saving up $20k or so becomes fairly easy once the saving habit is formed. Once you stop being tempted to buy crap you just don't need, you will find that you have lots more money than you've ever had in your pockets.
You are pretty well invested into the mythology of the credit game. It's time you spoke with your grandparents about how things used to be before this game was created and learn why they always had big savings accounts and other interest bearing accounts. It was no accident. It was the way things were done. Now days, people don't save at all. Having a couple thousand dollars in an account is pretty rare for most people. It's actually rather tragic. Nearly everyone lives in debt.
1 point per minute you keep them from calling other people.
How many points for forwarding them to the last guy that called you?
Many states are "open carry" states. Many more, while being more restrictive about public open carry have laws which make it legal for one to open carry on his own property. Exercise that right, while you're around your house at the very least, and problems go away. Personally, I usually strap one of my SBR AR-15s to my chest when I answer the door--unless I'm expecting someone, that is.
I've found no better deterrent for salesmen or those darn Jehovah's Witnesses, and lo and behold, I could never be lawfully accused of brandishing. If one of those crummy bill collectors showed up for any reason, I might just flick off the safety.
Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
Saying you owe something you don't is defamation of character, the credit bureaus know that a SSN isn't an unique identifier, there are 304,059,724 people in the US and approximately 18 million people use a SSN assigned to someone else. Even with almost 809 million possible SSNs, because the first three digits are an Area number collisions are very likely and sooner or later will be unavoidable.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Yes, but they can get a judgement against you in another state - say, New Jersey - and use that to garnish your wages in Texas. I know of at least one case in which a default judgement in a California court was used to garnish wages in Illinois. The person in question had to fly to California to dispute the judgement and reopen the case.
I don't know how it all played out, but he was out a few thousand dollars in expenses before his name was cleared.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Especially if they keep it up after you have provided reasonable evidence that you don't owe them money.
Here's the problem - it's very hard to provide reasonable evidence here. Think about: every day, all day, these guys hear variations on excused, but one that they hear predominantly is "What? No, you've got the wrong person. I don't owe you money."
It's very hard to prove that you don't owe money - especially when they have documetnation that confirms you are the right person. Even though the documentation is flawed, how can you reasonably convince them of that -- keeping in mind that they hear "It wasn't me" all the time.
Someone with the same last name but not a member of my family claimed our address and phone number as hers. We got her collection calls and repo men looking for the car she didn't pay for. The repo men showed up in person.
They refused to believe she didn't live here. They were quite stunned when I told them to shut up and start suing.
Good luck selling that to a jury.
What, shooting a credit collector that's trespassing on your property and physically harassing someone in person? If only every sales job was that easy...
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
I wish that would work for me. I have one of the more common last names in the U.S.. I live in an apartment complex with over 1,000 apartments. There is a couple with the same last name in the complex who have had their telephone disconnected. There are some creditors who call for them. The problem is that every three months or so, the debt gets passed down the line to the next debt collector. When the calls start, I tell them that I don't know either of these people. They are very polite and tell me that they will take my number off their records. The calls stop and in 2 to 3 months start again from a different collection agency.
I know how this happens. There is a company that sells information to track people down. This company lists my wife and I as possible relatives of this couple. What is really funny about this company is that even though I am part of a large family, the only people they list as my possible relatives is this guy and my father. My father has been dead for 10 years. They don't even list my wife as one of my relatives, although they list her as related to this guy.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
What are you going to do if you "brandish" it and they call your bluff and still refuse to leave? Worse yet, what are you going to do if they make a grab for it? Shoot them? Have fun explaining to the jury why you escalated the situation to one of life and death when your life wasn't in danger to begin with.
My life was in danger when they attempted to grab it. If they manage to take it from me, there is little chance that they won't kill me or at least threaten to. Why else would they need my gun? If they don't have hostile intentions the most peaceful way for them to defuse the situation is to leave. If I shoot to maim, it doesn't give them that chance.
I'm as pro-gun as they come but if I was on your jury I'd convict your ass in a heartbeat if that was the way it went down.
Legal ramifications are not going to be a high priority at the time. Convict if you must, it's better than the alternative for me.
Uh no, actually. The Do Not Call List has loopholes that allow debt collectors to make phone calls. Also charities and survey companies are exceptions to call as well.
I have a number that used to belong to someone else, I keep getting calls for that person. I keep telling people that person does not live here, and then they ask if they could talk to me (as if I was the person pretending to be someone else or something) and I told them no, that person does not live here, please stop calling.
Thing is he signed up for business with many companies and they still think he has the same number. They claim they have a right to call because they are debt collectors. I cannot get an address out of these companies, they want a bank account or credit card to pay off the debts.
I also found out that some companies are both debt collectors and telemarketers, so when they call to collect a debt, and find out they got the wrong number, they use the loophole to try to sell me something, even won't take no for an answer and I end up hanging up on them after telling them not to call back here.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
While this may only apply to Texas, It appears that some juries are in fact buying.
http://www.newser.com/story/31381/no-charges-for-texas-man-who-shot-neighbors-burglars.html
As to the point about calling your bluff when you brandish your firearm, I think you could make an argument that they were assaulting you if they tried to make a grab for your weapon. Plus if you didn't really want to shoot them guns are quite effective as a bludgeoning device. Mmmmmm Pistol Whip.
...if they make the mistake of calling me they are going to hear every four letter word in the English language.
There are some words one just can't justify spewing at even the lowest scum. Words like GOTO.
- just in case anybody else read the headline like I did.
Please submitters, avoid local acronyms, or at least expand them in the body. You can't seriously expect us to RTFA?
BTW, does this mean that US social security numbers lack check digits? That would be just silly.
Specifically, the "all parties" states are California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Massachusetts, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Washington.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Hello, this is the same legal system that has given us multi-million dollar verdicts for thieves who were injured in the commission of their crime. Juries are insane. There's no other reason for some of the civil verdicts that have come back - prisoners awarded damages for being denied ice cream with a frequency they want, silo owners having to pay multi million dollar suits because people cut through their fences, break locks, climb silos, break more locks, then fall.
This is somewhat off-topic, but I found the details of the article very interesting. Of 299 US government loans to Micronesians, over 200 were not paid up!! That makes subprime loans look like gold. Basically, the Micronesians are treating these as gifts, not loans. And why not - it's obvious the lender (that would be you, the American taxpayer) doesn't have any real recourse to collect. It's not like the Micronesians have anything to fear from US credit bureaus, who can't even track them adequately.
In other words, the US government tries to pretend these are loans by putting SSNs on the accounts, which ends up screwing over some hapless US citizen, when they should just treat them as gifts, because in reality it looks like they are.
Legal ramifications are not going to be a high priority at the time. Convict if you must, it's better than the alternative for me.
I think you've misunderstood the discussion at hand. You are operating under the assumption that your life is in mortal jeopardy. If that was actually the case then you'll have my vote for acquittal and I'll buy you a beer after the trial is over.
The discussion at hand relates to a debt collector who refuses to leave your property when asked. Nobody said anything about him becoming violent or anything of that nature. This is nothing more than simple trespass and I personally think that introducing a firearm into such a situation is an unnecessary and unwise escalation.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Lots of things.
Unless you've got a lot of money, you need various forms of credit in case of an emergency. What if you suddenly need to pay a $50,000 medical bill because you suffered an injury the insurance won't cover? Or a legal bill? For even the upper middle class with a few hundred K in assets, it's not convenient to come up with that kind of money on the spot. You usually have to sell some stocks or other securities, or get a second mortgage, etc. A few high limit credit cards in your wallet can make the problem a lot more managable.
Insurance of all types looks at credit ratings. Cell phone companies.
A key one is EMPLOYERS. Yep, your credit score can determine whether they even offer you a job. Unfair, but some do it.
Banks also care.
Bottom line : your credit score matters a ton, and you should do what you can to protect and optimize it. The formula is complex, but you should have exactly 4 high limit credit cards with very little utilization. You should keep those 4 cards for as long as possible, never canceling them. Maybe have them set to be paid in full automatically at the end of each month, and occasionally purchase something using the cards. You should get a form of long term consumer debt (like a mortgage) and pay that as well. Usually, even if you can afford to buy a house cash, a mortgage can give you tax benefits that are worth it, and you can secure the mortgage with some securities to lower the interest rate.
There is the concept of proportional response: if someone is doing a snatch and grab, shooting them isn't justified. If they have 4-5 buddies and they try to take something by force, fire away...
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Yep, let the legal system deal with it. The worst a debt collector can do is take you to court only to find out they screwed up. You may counter sue at this point depending on the laws of your nation.
Forceful? Terrible idea. When it goes to court they get to say that you were the belligerent party and their side was "only defending itself". You're better off calling the cops to have them escorted off. First rule of dealing with debt collectors is to let them make the mistakes.
Their only recourse is to sue you and the onus is on the debt collector to prove you owe them money. All you need to do is prove that you are not who they say you are. Never get intimidated, in Australia a debt collector is not permitted to threaten or deceive in any communications as this would result in the revocation of their license and probably charges being made against the companies directors.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
With private people, you can do even funnier things.
Assume you have two different men calling you in anger, thinking you're someone else. (May happen when someone banged what they think is their girl, and they also think you're the one.)
Then make each one as angry as you can, offer him to meet in the local gay neighborhood, and beat the shit out of him. At this point, you must have him thinking that he will actually beat the shit out of you.
Tell them both where to meet, and that your identification is a flower in a button hole, or something as camp as possible.
Now you just have to go to a café nearby, watch them beat each other, and call the cops, saying that there is a gay couple fighting on the other side of the street.
(But of course do not let the police find out that you're the caller, or who you are.)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Forceful? Terrible idea. When it goes to court they get to say that you were the belligerent party and their side was "only defending itself". You're better off calling the cops to have them escorted off. First rule of dealing with debt collectors is to let them make the mistakes.
In my state you are allowed to use physical force to remove a trespasser from your property. They'd have a tough time claiming that you were the belligerent party on your own property.
I know someone who manhandled a cable company employee out of his house and onto the street after the employee refused to leave when asked to do so. The cable guy called the cops to report this "assault" and was eventually arrested by them when they determined that he had been asked to leave the residence and declined to do so.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Yeah, well, I know someone who had that same attitude. He heard noises one night, saw a figure in his living room and opened fire. Guess who he shot? Some dumbass drunk high school student who thought he was crawling back into the open window at his parents house. Thankfully the kid lived, but can you imagine if he hadn't? Could you live with yourself if you killed someone who turned out not to be a threat to you?
Actually, yes I could live with myself, just as much as I could live with myself if the drunk kid had hit me head on on the road and he didn't survive the accident. It was his one negligence that would have caused his death in both cases. Anyone comes wandering into my house unannounced and uninvited at night and they're dead - simple as that. It's not worth taking the risk. Drunk high school student, crack head looking for cash, or simple psychopath don't appear too different visually in the wee hours of the morning, and two of those three aren't likely to let you cozily slip off to your "defensible location". Once they've chosen to put themselves in that situation it's too late. If he can't control himself enough that he's so messed up that he's crawling into the wrong house window, then that kid was doing something just as dangerous as taking a car out on the road drunk.
It's personal responsibility. You go unannounced into a strangers house - ESPECIALLY after dark, and there's a very good chance that you're not coming back out. If you put yourself in that position then you have to live (or die) with the consequences.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
My cousin worked at a dent collection call center, and I know for a fact that she is always polite and courteous. She even gave many people basic financial advise to help them pay their debts, and now she is in college majoring in "personal finance coaching" or something like that.
The government can't save you.
I'd live for that day.
As long as the dead body is inside your door transom, it's self defense. Just make sure you replace the calculator in his/her hand with an ice pick, knife, of pistol. The police will more readily accept your self defense claim with a weapon in the dead hand of the 4'9" slight build brunette female on the floor. Trust me on this.
Best lawyer wins. A good lawyer can prove anything they need to.
Using force only helps them convince others you are guilty of something.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Protecting property is hardly justification for risking someone's life, thief or no thief. Civilized people know that, which is why our civilized rules say he should be arrested.
Absolutely it is. Killing a thief on your property, in the act, is morally acceptable. It's a perfectly civilized act in response to the uncivilized act of the thief.
when you get a automated call just play this over the phone... http://www.payphone-directory.org/sounds/wav/verizon/disconnect.wav
In my state you are allowed to use physical force to remove a trespasser from your property.
In my state (of mind), I use a shovel to keep them on my property.
Just callin' it like I see it.
They were quite stunned when I told them to shut up and start suing.
Yeah, I love this strategy. I was hassled by an agency once that put at the bottom of their initial contact letter "if you do not respond within 14 days we will instruct our lawyers to recover this debt in court." I wrote a response, "Go ahead. Make my day."
Funnily enough, I never heard anything else from them. 6 months later, another agency starts trying to collect...
I hope you don't have children who sleep in another room. I would hate to think of the awful things that could happen while you staying put waiting for a police department that has no obligation to protect you to show up. Before we get to far, the no obligation part is a result of a court case that exonerated cops for not protecting someone as the court found the cops has no obligation to protect anyone. Anyways, the point is that it could take a long time before they show up. It might be a priority for them, but if something happened across town or something, there could be some significant time involved before they can make it to your home.
IF you don't have kids or someone sleeping in another room, then it sounds like a pretty good plan. However, if you do, I would go after the invader if nothing else but to keep them away from the other people.
And when you find you can't get a loan / get a mortgage / have other credit problems because of this mistaken identity getting entered into a central credit agency that your bank refers to?
It happened to me: Experian got information wrong about me and they refused to change my records until I took a train to London to speak to the council officers who kindly agreed to speak to Experian on the phone, and explained that they held incorrect records about me. Local government officials, thank you. Experian - dodgy commercial operation that doesn't care about people.
Do you honestly believe that you can use US law to get back at someone in another country? US laws apply in the US... some other governments are still bent over ready to take it from GW but most countries will tell you where to go.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
To stop him stealing it. Beacause it's my fucking car, that I bought with my fucking money that I fucking earned.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Three words: Learn to count.
"If they are trying to take your property, then there is no reason to come up behind them and hit them in the head. Warn them off. If they come after you, then hit them in the head."
The problem is: you absolutely do not want to give a warning. A criminal is more used to violence that your average joe - be it from gang fights, time in prison, or whatever. Your only chance in a physical confrontation is surprise. Give warning that you are going to hit him with a baseball bat, and he's likely to take the bat away and use it on you. Guess what, the same applies to a gun, unless you have explicitly trained for this sort of situation.
Car theft is in the gray zone, because you have the option of just letting it happen, with no personal confrontation at all. However, if someone is mugging you, or is in your house, they expect a personal confrontation. They are prepared for violence and definitely pose a threat to your life. If you are the type to do so (macho chest-thumping aside, not everyone is), you should shoot first and ask questions of the corpse. In countries where this is illegal, you may want to do it anyway - else you may be the one on the marble slab.
Re the discussion above about the drunken high school student breaking into the house: he deserved to be shot. Maybe you will feel guilty afterwards. But - at that particular moment - you have every reason to assume that some dangerous criminal is breaking in and intends the worst.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
If you have enough sense to browse the comments, you'll find common themes:
1. The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act is pretty effective at helping you deal with collectors, so go read the law.
2. You can usually get a good response by writing a letter (and you'll see why if you read the law). At the minimum you can make them comply with a "do not call me" request and make them correspond by letter.
I will add a bit of my own wisdom. Find out the laws in your state and record your telephone. I happen to be in a "one party knows" state, so I can record my calls without saying. I always ask the state the collector is in and look it up to see if it is compatible (otherwise you may need to inform them if you want to use the recordings in court).
Review your telephone recordings. Sometimes collectors will say things that don't mean quite what you think when you are on the line and under stress. I found reviewing the recordings left me with "ah ha" moments, especially when I took the conversation in the context of the FDCPA.
Despite some other commentor's opinions it was my experience that debt collectors are often professional thugs. It makes sense, thugs have to work somewhere too, and you do what you are good at.
If you have to pay a collector (I owed for a legitimate claim one time when there was a billing mistake), I recommend a one-time use credit card number. It can't be double billed if you set a limit at the correct amount. Believe me, you don't want to try to collect from a collector who owes you money because they screwed up. You can be successful, but you won't enjoy it.
Remember, you want to be polite but firm. You want your recorded voice (remember, you're going to be taping this) to sound reasonable. If you take this collector to court, you want them to be the asshole. You want the judge to get pissed on your behalf and zing them with a judgment.
Ten points if your tell them your address is
445 12th Street SW
Washington, DC 20554
And get them to actually send correspondence there.
(That's the office of the FCC, and my first choice anytime a spammer would like my mailing address.)
You can get 15 minutes of fame, but you can go down in history for infamy.
Gotta love people who essentially call the cops on themselves.
I was helping a friend move once, and she clipped the bumper of an illegally parked car (too close to the corner, in front of a fire hydrant) with her moving truck. The owner of the car insisted on calling the cops. They showed up, gave him a ticket for being parked illegally, and another ticket for having let his insurance lapse when they looked that up, too.
The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
Best lawyer wins. A good lawyer can prove anything they need to.
Nope, a laywer can only do so much when they have no proof.
Using force only helps them convince others you are guilty of something.
Of what? Removing a trespasser from your own property? I'm tired of this logic; sometimes force is acceptable and called for.