Slashdot Mirror
How To Prove Someone Is Female?
krou writes "Caster Semenya won the 800m at the World Athletics Championship in blistering style, leaving her competitors in the dust, but she has been thrown into the midst of a scandal amidst claims that she's not really a woman. According to the many press reports, she's believed to shave, is flat chested, has a very masculine physique, previously preferred playing physical games with boys, and shunned traditional female activities and clothing. Questions about her gender have dogged her entire career. Previously, acceptance that she is a women relied on simple inspection of female genitals. But now the IAAF claim that they want to conduct further tests to see if 'she may have a rare medical condition that gives her an unfair advantage.' An IAAF spokesmen noted that 'The [testing] process was started after Semenya made her startling breakthroughs — a 25-second improvement at 1500m and eight seconds at 800m, just some weeks ago.' I'm curious what the Slashdot community thinks: what can be considered proof of someone being male or female? Is it simply a case of having the right genitals, or are there other criteria that should be used? Is the IAAF right in claiming that someone should be prevented from competing because they have a rare medical or genetic advantage?"
If you can make love to her, then she is a woman (provided that you know where you put your willy in)...
... or, if she uses the term "make love" for the act, she is a woman.
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
Driving test.
And lastly, I'd like to believe that as a community that espouses scientific values and intelligent discourse, the answer should be obvious:...
Bad girlintrainig! You never, ever, EVER presume that just because someone is smart and intelligent they should agree with you -- or that, just because someone disagrees with you, they're either not smart or not intelligent.
I'd say it's far more scientific to brand gender and sex as immutable based on your genetics than to relegate it to subjective measurements And on that note...
Life is full of delicious ambiguity, and people assume that two polar opposites (male and female) have nothing in between. But life isn't like that. Life is a spectrum, and any place we draw the line is arbitrary -- not natural. Nature has its own laws, which are not the laws of men.,
A female is an organism that can produce an ova to create young during its lifespan. A male is an organism that can create sperm to fertilize said Ova during its lfiespan. This is not arbitrary -- this is the scientific definition from biology. Any organism that can do neither of those two during its lifespan is neuter, and any that can do both is hemaphroditic (sic). ANY OTHER DEFINITION is cultural, subjective, non-scientific crap.
And additionally, the obnoxious notion of "fairness" further complicates the issue.
When issues like these come up, I'm always reminded of Harrison Bergeron
If you haven't looked in to the -how- of a sex change, you probably should. It's fascinating.
Turns out its almost all about the action of estrogen and testosterone on the body. Here's how it works:
Before birth: genetics (not the action of testosterone or estrogen) drive the construction of male or female genitalia along with testicles, prostate, uterus and ovaries. The bodies otherwise develop pretty much exactly the same.
Before puberty: still nothing. Get a boy and a girl both five years old, cut their hair the same and dress them in the same clothes. You won't be able to tell which is which. Except for the genitalia, their bodies are virtually identical.
Puberty: Boys and girls begin producing significant quantities of testosterone or estrogen. Under the action of testosterone, boys gain an extra several inches of height.
Any time: under the action of testosterone, the voice deepens, facial hair appears, body hair becomes coarse and soft tissues redistribute and redevelop towards the abdomen in particular and towards what's considered to be the male figure in general. Under the action of estrogen, the mammaries develop, body hair becomes soft and soft tissue redistributes towards the thighs and the so-called "hourglass figure." And of course if she actually has a uterus then she begins to menstruate.
Note that if you artificially introduce testosterone and estrogen before puberty, the changes start early, typically to the detriment of the girl or boy whose body isn't yet ready.
The appearance of facial hair, the voice drop and the development of the mammaries are permanent features. Skeletal height is also permanent after puberty; you won't add inches by introducing testosterone in your 30s. Once developed these characteristics can only be surgically altered. The soft tissue distribution and body hair character alters under the effect of the two chemicals, so if you change the chemical balance those features will alter.
Post menopause/ed: in the absence of significant amounts of testosterone and estrogen, body hair and figure tend towards a neutral configuration. That's why grandma and grandpa start to look alike.
So, someone undergoing a sex change takes two daily pills: one to block the action of the undesired chemical (estrogen or testosterone) and one which provides the missing chemical. Do this for about a year and 90% of the change is accomplished... From a fully clothed perspective you generally can't tell the difference except that the woman is oddly tall or the man oddly short. In fact, given the expense and risk of the final SRS surgery (versus the sub-$50/month cost of the pills), more than a few trans simply stop there, satisfied with an outward appearance and lifestyle that matches their self-image.
Now apparently the sports officials suspect something more unusual than just tampering with body chemistry is going on here. There's a very rare birth defect in which an individual who is genetically male incorrectly grows female genitalia. They lack ovaries and a uterus. The testicles are still connected but they're up in the abdomen and mostly non-functional. Generally the first time anyone even suspects the individual isn't genetically female is when they reach puberty and the testicles start putting out testosterone. The girl adds 6 inches in a growth spurt, spouts fuzz on her face, loses an octave in her voice and pads her bra. Very embarrassing.
Also I think you have to define it genetically otherwise people that have a sex change could compete as the sex they want to.
If Caster stops and asks for directions to the track arena, Caster is a female. If Caster continues to drive around, crossing bridges, running into cul-de-sacs, on and off the freeway, then Caster is a male.
Keep Doing Good.
Ummm yeah! But it's not so rare. It's called being a GUY.
It's going to be unpopular here but I'll say it. That woman is the manliest looking 15 year old female on god's good earth. She walks like a man, talks like a man, has muscles like a man, and the general countenance of a man.
People here are treating her case as if she were clearly a female and so are giving her a lot of leeway to be whatever gender she wants. But they are going to be crying foul play if she turns up a man and she is going to be cast a villain for it.
What a difference gender makes, right folks?
Own up to the gender favoritism, kids. When we think someone is a woman, we make psychological concessions, and any big bad man who suspects she might be male is unfair.
None of the crusaders for her cause to be any gender she desires is thinking of her competitors or of the general concept of fairness.
If she has such spectacular genetics, let her compete with the men.
Just callin' it like I see it.
From wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foekje_Dillema
"In 1950 Dillema was expelled for life by the Dutch National Athletics Federations. A gynaecologist concluded that Dillema was an intersex."
"In 2008, a controversial DNA-test on dead cells from her clothing found that she may have been a Genetic Mosaic, having both 46XX (female) and 46XY (male) chromosomes in approximately a 3 to 1 ratio. "
You know, from my point of view, all of these world-class athletes are genetic abnormalities. It's a little rich for them to point to the best of themselves and yell "SHE'S the freak!"
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
Even criminals have rights.
If one wants to compete, they have to take a test. If they don't consent, they don't compete. This is not a violation of rights because there is no necessity or right to compete.
http://sourcemage.org/ - Have fun
Genetic variants? By many accounts, China outright fabricated passports for some of their prepubescent gymnasts in the last olympics. After an initial hand flapping, that got ignored. But some poor girl who (apparently through no fault of her own) has some natural advantage is being punished. That is simply crazy.
According to the venerable BBC report on the subject, it isn't as simple as all that. While the vast majority of us possess chromosomes in the traditional formations XX and XY, there exist some 25 OTHER possible arrangements, which, taking into account a variety of other factors, can lead to an even larger possible selection of physical effects and outcomes.
The vast majority of us aren't in rigorous physical competition, and so might never know if we are one of these "intersex" conditions. If she of TFA does, how do you interpret the results?
So she has a rare genetic makeup, doesn't every world class athlete have a rare genetic makeup? I consider myself ordinary male and I can't do most of the stuff even a female Olympic athlete can.
Athletes, the Track & Field ones, are already required to piss in a cup for drug testing. The results of which will eventually be published for a positive test. DNA testing is just an extrapolation of an existing process. From the IAAF's perspective participants have no right to hide their sexual identity. Don't like the rules? go form your own organization. Vince McMahon will tell you that's a dumb idea (re: XFL with no drug tests). You want to talk about privacy invasion, try looking at the list of drugs which aren't allowed in an athlete's system and see how many you may have in your medicine cabinet. The majority of cough medicines are verboten. The right question isn't so much about privacy as much as it is how a governing organization should go about sanctioning a fair competition.
"Someone who is XY or XX" is also not well-defined. Mosaicism is a condition where an individual has some XY cells, and others XX. Where do you draw the line for the individual to be a male? Does "he" have to have 50+% XY cells, 90+%, 99+% ?
And what about the XYY syndrome? Some question whether the term "syndrome" is even appropriate because most individuals with XYY cells don't even know it as they appear to be regular healthy males. They don't have to take drugs, which defeats your first argument. Given that 1 in 1000 boys have this syndrome, it is probable that some athletes who won "male" competition have this syndrome. If we were to have these persons genetically tested today, would you retroactively strip them from their titles?
This whole male/female question is not as trivial as it looks like.
Indeed. In fact, for example, XY women with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) are not only phenotpically female, but tend to be *weaker* and *less* masculinized than normal XX women.
It's not the X chromosome or Y chromsome that's the key. There's this whole cascade of reactions that lead to prenatal masculinization/feminization. This is started off by the complex SRY (Sex Region Y), which is normally found on the Y chromosome. But it can be defective. Or it can migrate to the X chromosome. And even if it's perfectly normal, what about each subsequent step in the cascade? For example, AIS women produce androgens, but their body just ignores them.
And then there's some of the really weird cases, like 5 alpha reductace deficiency syndrome. It's also called "guevedoche" in the parts of the Dominican Republic where it's unusually common. Guevedoche means "balls at twelve", and yes, it's like it sounds. A child is born, sometimes phenotypically intersexed, but sometimes seemingly a perfectly normal female. But when "she" hits puberty, "she" grows body hair, testes descend, the clitoris develops into a micropenis, and on and on. They usually develop a male gender identity, and in some cases, they can even father children.
Gender is not as simple as we'd like to pretend. Did you know that your average man can lactate? I'm dead serious. Men have undeveloped breasts, including undeveloped mammary glands. Take estrogen for a year or two (to trigger breast development), then take a large dose of domperidone for two weeks. Domperidone inhibits dopamine levels (outside the brain; it doesn't cross the brain-blood barrier, so it doesn't lower brain dopamine). Dopamine inhibits prolactin production, so dropping its levels stimulates the production of prolactin, which stimulates the production of breast milk.
We're all made of the same body parts, just with different degrees of development and activation of them.
Don't disrespect the denim sheep.
Oh, that's right. I forgot there's only two options and no possibility of deviation from those options AT ALL.
Fucking moron.
Since in the vast majority of cases, it really is one of those two options - it seems like the logical first step, given that invasive testing is apparently already the norm for track and field anymore. If Caster's test shows XX or XY, either way the case is closed. Arguing that a remote possibility of a different genetic state exists means you can't first test for the heavily dominant typical state is, quite frankly, silly. That's like arguing that a doctor shouldn't do an influenza test on a patient with flu-like symptoms because there's a remote possibility it's Brucellosis.
#DeleteChrome
If your body, for whatever reason, allows you to outperform others without the interference of artificial performance-enhancing substances, congratulations. You win.
What this whole argument has thus far ignored is the fact that athletes need at least as much if not more mental strength and inherent talent than physical strength. What she has accomplished has at least as much to do with her mind as her body.
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
Actually, I imagine they would be doing a PCR assay looking for the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, which is what gets things going in the male direction during foetal development. This would have a greater chance of detecting any abnormalities since in some rare cases, the SRY gene can end up on the X chromosome, giving an XX male. This would not be detected by a karyotype, but would show up on a PCR assay. Also, PCR is heavily automatised and probably easier to do than a karyotype, which involves a lot of human work. There are also other conditions that could cause something to go wrong, such as being a XY male with some defect in testosterone synthesis/sensitivity. Anyways, if she has the SRY gene, then that is a pretty strong indicator that her genes intended for her to be a man, but that something happened during foetal development to make things go another way.
Right? Look at any NBA center. Shaq, for example, has a rare genetic condition causing him to be a fucking giant and giving him an unfair advantage over me, a 6'1" 190 lb. dude. Should he be allowed to play professional basketball? Of course.
The NBA considered denying him permission to play, but the decision fell apart when it was realized that no one had the balls to tell Shaq about it.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
What if it turns out she is in fact intersexed? Should she be banned from competing as a woman?
Intersexed people are not so rare. XXY, XX males, and XY females do exist. True hermaphrodites are less common, but again, not as rare as you would think. In my case, I am a true hermaphrodite, have CAH and both XX and XY genes (genetic mosaicism), which leads doctors to believe I absorbed a twin in-utero. As I get older I am unfortunately becoming more androgynous.
I had severe migraines my whole life, was ALWAYS hungry (I could eat an entire sub, a large candy bar, drink a coke, and still be hungry) - and could not gain weight no matter how much I ate. I went for all kinds of testing and one doctor mentioned my adrenals "are a little off" and when I asked what that meant he said it's not a big deal. Years later, I went through a very stressful situation and my adrenal glands finally decided to really act up. I gained 60lbs within six months and developed facial hair growth. I hated doctors by that point (being intersexed they wanted to use me as a guinea pig and get published, making names for themselves) so I didn't get checked out until a couple of years went by and things got so bad I was getting 3-4 migraines a week, went from bad-tempered to downright bitchy (read: batshit insane! ;)), and had severe heart pain. I finally got checked out by a cardiac physiologist friend (who had been telling me I have adrenal issues all along and had to get all soy out of my diet) who checked with a specialist friend of his after pulling my medical records, and confirmed the CAH suspicions. Why didn't my doctors catch that? The problem is now that my adrenals are functioning so poorly I gain weight easily.
Within a couple of days of eliminating soy from my diet, the jaundice, migraines, fatigue, insomnia, heart palpitations (and resultant pain), and my behavioral issues disappeared completely. Now I don't get migraines unless I accidentally (or on rare occasion knowingly) ingest soy (vegetable oil, vegetable protein, vegetable shortening, etc.. all contain soy proteins). My mood changed and I no longer had a quick temper. It turns out I had a slight soy allergy and a severe intolerance. The intolerance comes from the SW/CAH.
For my adrenal condition now doctors want to put me on corticosteroids, which will make me even more andgrogynous. I won't do that. So, what I decided to do instead was to adjust my diet to include a LOT more cholesterol, and a lot more salt (for the electrolyte imbalance). The extra cholesterol provides my adrenal glands with more cortisol precursors so that they can manufacture a little more cortisol, eliminating the need for injections.
Taking in a lot more cholesterol eliminated the kidney pain (my adrenals were irritating my kidneys), and eliminated the constant hunger feeling. Before then, I never knew what it was like to not feel hunger pangs.
Doctors often coerce parents to choose one sex over the other, in the name of profit. Peforming those "corrective" surgeries on infants is profitable, and they encourage parents to hide it from their children. In many cases, doctors don't even inform the parents of the causes of the intersex condition, and/or don't describe it as an intersex/hermaphroditic condition but as an "anomoly" which is intentionally vague. Unfortunately, in the case of children with CAH or PAIS, hiding those problems and not informing their children of their health condition can often lead to future health and societal problems.
Had I known then what I knew now (I knew of the cosmetic situation when I was a child, but was never informed of the underlying causes - and neither were my parents) I'd have known to avoid soy, keep my electrolytes up, and eat extra cholesterol. On top of that, avoiding the temper issues would have allowed me to advance my career even more quickly than I did before I left the corporate life (I had a severe dislike for corporate politics because it irritated me. Now I'd welcome it and play the game, knowing
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
The first clue was when she kept leaving the toilet seat up.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I have persistent thoughts of hoping I die because I feel very strongly that I need to be a woman. I shy away from mirrors in self-disgust. I have to avoid seeing women in general or I will start to get jealous of them. I hate my life.
Why would i choose this?
"Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
To answer the question of whether or not she should be allowed to compete as a female if she is not 100% female, one must first consider the question of whether women should be competing in a separate class at all.
Let's avoid the underlying moral and philosophical issues and just stick with the practical reason for setting things up so women compete separately: approximately 50% of the population is female, so it is a political necessity. You can argue all sorts of other reasons, but when it really comes down to it, that is the crux of it.
And if you really think about it, we don't actually have women competing against women in one group and men competing against men in another group. What we REALLY have is women competing against women in one group, and EVERYONE ELSE competing in another group. Men are not set up as a protected class, it is only women who are set up as a protected class. If a sufficiently gifted female runner wanted to compete against men, I very much suspect that she'd be allowed to do so.
Once you realize the reality that female sports are basically a protected class based on a political reality, the answer to the other question becomes pretty simple: anyone who is not 100% female is not part of the "protected class" and should therefore compete in the "everyone else" category.
Is it fair? Maybe not. But how is having women compete separately "fair" in the first place? It is just for political expediency, and personally I don't see anything wrong with it if it keeps 50% of the population happier and more fulfilled than they otherwise would be without causing any undue hardship on a significant part of the population.
Nobody wants to watch a game where they already know who will win. Likewise, the athletes don't want to compete in a contest they're sure to lose.
The continued existence of the Baltimore Orioles disproves your assertion.
If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
Right now a similar investigation is taking place in my case as well. I was born intersexual, have a female build, but male genitals, possibly female too (no two radiologists seem to agree on the MRI images). I really hope that the genetical testing will tell me once and for all why I ended up like this with a body that is clearly neither male nor female, even if anyone who meets me on the street, at the pool, or at the gym, will call me female, and my ID card keeps getting (nearly) refused all the time.
Worst is that the law here in the Netherlands doesn't allow me to have my official name and gender changed (I'm currently registered as male) due to the law only being focused on transsexuals (gender reassignment surgery requirement, which is impossible for intersexual people).
You can find more info on my case at my site, www.mayaposch.com.
Site & blog: http://www.mayaposch.com
I too am a transgendered slashdotter,
And as I see it, being transgendered is not a choice, just like being born with any condition is not a choice, if someone has gender dysphoria, it's there, there is no choice about that. While technically choosing to transition IS a choice, to me it's kind of like the choice between fleeing a burning building or letting it engulf you in flames.
I don't really understand your need to use transgendered people as a way to validate yourself to slashdotters or society, as I too have been "dealt an unusual hand and society often punishes us for it because we do not conform to the norm." Surely you understand that gender dysphoria is not something anyone chooses?
As for sports, If I were even interested in competing, I would compete as a woman and I would not feel like I was cheating, I have been on HRT since before puberty so I don't understand how I would have an unfair advantage. Though I would rather see sports not segregated by sex at all, just let everyone compete together, OR have seperate leages based on bodysize/musclemass/whatever.