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How To Prove Someone Is Female?

krou writes "Caster Semenya won the 800m at the World Athletics Championship in blistering style, leaving her competitors in the dust, but she has been thrown into the midst of a scandal amidst claims that she's not really a woman. According to the many press reports, she's believed to shave, is flat chested, has a very masculine physique, previously preferred playing physical games with boys, and shunned traditional female activities and clothing. Questions about her gender have dogged her entire career. Previously, acceptance that she is a women relied on simple inspection of female genitals. But now the IAAF claim that they want to conduct further tests to see if 'she may have a rare medical condition that gives her an unfair advantage.' An IAAF spokesmen noted that 'The [testing] process was started after Semenya made her startling breakthroughs — a 25-second improvement at 1500m and eight seconds at 800m, just some weeks ago.' I'm curious what the Slashdot community thinks: what can be considered proof of someone being male or female? Is it simply a case of having the right genitals, or are there other criteria that should be used? Is the IAAF right in claiming that someone should be prevented from competing because they have a rare medical or genetic advantage?"

151 of 1,091 comments (clear)

  1. Make them write some code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... and see how it pans out.

    1. Re:Make them write some code by innerweb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Close, but just let men and women compete equally. head to head, no men's leagues or women's leagues. Then all of this silliness just goes away.

      InnerWeb

      --
      Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
    2. Re:Make them write some code by triffid_98 · · Score: 3, Funny

      ( http://www.gotfuturama.com/Multimedia/EpisodeSounds/1ACV05/ )
      He's good, all right, but he's no Clem Johnson. And Johnson played back in the days before steroid injections were mandatory!

    3. Re:Make them write some code by BetterSense · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mod parent up. Those with a natural genetic advantage should be allowed to compete and excel...this includes Shaq, Phelps, or anyone else with a natural genetic advantage.

      Of course, this is going to be pretty hard on the women, since they get the short end of the genetic stick regarding certain physical traits. But there are many, many MEN that cannot compete with either the men or the women in certain sports. Statistically, there are nearly as many men that cannot compete with the best male athletes as there are females that cannot compete with the best male athletes. And as an average man I know I would have no chance against many female athletes.

      I understand that the idea of a female league/sport/category for sports is something that a lot of people want, but things like TFA's quandary are just rule quibbles. There's nothing like "Oh, she was faster, but she's not really a she so it doesn't count". If she was faster, she was fucking faster, just like all the male athletes that are faster and you exclude from your league to give it a reason to exist.

    4. Re:Make them write some code by sqldr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      On the face of it, this sounds like the best option, but when you get down to the dirty details, it gets a bit more complicated.

      I can't remember the name of the individual, but a women's football swedish striker was signed for an italian team, in what was originally described as a publicity stunt. It eventually caused controversy when one player, who was obviously into "traditional" values voices his concerns about tackling, basically saying he was nervous about doing "rough" full-contact tackles because of fear of harming her.

      You could just explain to the guy that she has signed up and agreed to do it, and if she breaks her legs then that's her own stupid fault, but this is a prevalent opinion in a lot of players, and could turn the game into a farce.

      --
      I wrote my first program at the age of six, and I still can't work out how this website works.
    5. Re:Make them write some code by russotto · · Score: 2, Informative

      Close, but just let men and women compete equally. head to head, no men's leagues or women's leagues. Then all of this silliness just goes away.

      Except that men and women aren't equal, physically. The top men are much better than the top women at most physical activities, and the effect continues well down the ability ladder. So if you get rid of that separation, you will get essentially no women at the top levels of competition.

  2. Easy by Wamoc · · Score: 3, Funny

    To test if someone is female or not, just ask them to go out with a geek. If she says yes, then she can't be a female.

    1. Re:Easy by Joe+Jay+Bee · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's quite easy, actually - I'd imagine it's the slapping and the police involvement afterwards that's the hard part.

    2. Re:Easy by mewrei · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Seriously though, we live post-Genome Project, is it REALLY that difficult to just sequence her DNA to see if there exist two X Chromosomes without a freaking political scandal?

    3. Re:Easy by Minozake · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Even criminals have rights.

      If one wants to compete, they have to take a test. If they don't consent, they don't compete. This is not a violation of rights because there is no necessity or right to compete.

      --
      http://sourcemage.org/ - Have fun :)
    4. Re:Easy by mewrei · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And as much as I hate defending government, a DNA sequence is probably a heck of a lot less invasive and humiliating than what she's probably going through right now.

    5. Re:Easy by Patch86 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      According to the venerable BBC report on the subject, it isn't as simple as all that. While the vast majority of us possess chromosomes in the traditional formations XX and XY, there exist some 25 OTHER possible arrangements, which, taking into account a variety of other factors, can lead to an even larger possible selection of physical effects and outcomes.

      The vast majority of us aren't in rigorous physical competition, and so might never know if we are one of these "intersex" conditions. If she of TFA does, how do you interpret the results?

    6. Re:Easy by jeff4747 · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not so simple.

      It's possible to be born with both an X and Y chromosome, but have all the physical traits of a female. There's a few ways a Y can be "defective".

      It wouldn't be fair to force such people to compete with the men, because they've got the body mass/strength/endurance/etc of typical XX humans despite having a Y.

      As in most things in life, the edge cases make it really hard to come up with a simple rule that's fair to everyone involved.

    7. Re:Easy by jerralb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Athletes, the Track & Field ones, are already required to piss in a cup for drug testing. The results of which will eventually be published for a positive test. DNA testing is just an extrapolation of an existing process. From the IAAF's perspective participants have no right to hide their sexual identity. Don't like the rules? go form your own organization. Vince McMahon will tell you that's a dumb idea (re: XFL with no drug tests). You want to talk about privacy invasion, try looking at the list of drugs which aren't allowed in an athlete's system and see how many you may have in your medicine cabinet. The majority of cough medicines are verboten. The right question isn't so much about privacy as much as it is how a governing organization should go about sanctioning a fair competition.

    8. Re:Easy by andymadigan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who said it's the government? It amazes me how many "libertarians" equate business with government.

      --
      The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
    9. Re:Easy by fatalwall · · Score: 2, Insightful

      well you could just get rid of the men woman divisions and do it by physical aspects such as strengt

      its the only real way to be fair about the process and not risk issues with genetic testing and all.

    10. Re:Easy by stoolpigeon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That wont work because it would completely eliminate women from being competitive in a wide range of sports.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    11. Re:Easy by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

      Indeed. In fact, for example, XY women with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) are not only phenotpically female, but tend to be *weaker* and *less* masculinized than normal XX women.

      It's not the X chromosome or Y chromsome that's the key. There's this whole cascade of reactions that lead to prenatal masculinization/feminization. This is started off by the complex SRY (Sex Region Y), which is normally found on the Y chromosome. But it can be defective. Or it can migrate to the X chromosome. And even if it's perfectly normal, what about each subsequent step in the cascade? For example, AIS women produce androgens, but their body just ignores them.

      And then there's some of the really weird cases, like 5 alpha reductace deficiency syndrome. It's also called "guevedoche" in the parts of the Dominican Republic where it's unusually common. Guevedoche means "balls at twelve", and yes, it's like it sounds. A child is born, sometimes phenotypically intersexed, but sometimes seemingly a perfectly normal female. But when "she" hits puberty, "she" grows body hair, testes descend, the clitoris develops into a micropenis, and on and on. They usually develop a male gender identity, and in some cases, they can even father children.

      Gender is not as simple as we'd like to pretend. Did you know that your average man can lactate? I'm dead serious. Men have undeveloped breasts, including undeveloped mammary glands. Take estrogen for a year or two (to trigger breast development), then take a large dose of domperidone for two weeks. Domperidone inhibits dopamine levels (outside the brain; it doesn't cross the brain-blood barrier, so it doesn't lower brain dopamine). Dopamine inhibits prolactin production, so dropping its levels stimulates the production of prolactin, which stimulates the production of breast milk.

      We're all made of the same body parts, just with different degrees of development and activation of them.

      --
      Don't disrespect the denim sheep.
    12. Re:Easy by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh, that's right. I forgot there's only two options and no possibility of deviation from those options AT ALL.

      Fucking moron.

      Since in the vast majority of cases, it really is one of those two options - it seems like the logical first step, given that invasive testing is apparently already the norm for track and field anymore. If Caster's test shows XX or XY, either way the case is closed. Arguing that a remote possibility of a different genetic state exists means you can't first test for the heavily dominant typical state is, quite frankly, silly. That's like arguing that a doctor shouldn't do an influenza test on a patient with flu-like symptoms because there's a remote possibility it's Brucellosis.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    13. Re:Easy by Thinboy00 · · Score: 4, Informative

      What they need is not called a DNA sequence, it's a karyotype. In other words, they look at her chromosomes, without looking at the actual sequence of base-pairs. That's better than a DNA sequence b/c you're only looking at what her chromosomes are, not what her actual genes are--and it's a hell of a lot more private than asking her to show people her genitals.

      --
      $ make available
    14. Re:Easy by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's becoming increasingly hard for me to tell the difference.

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
      altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
    15. Re:Easy by Hojima · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One of the most surefire way is to see if her gametes can play their respective roll. If they can manage to form a viable embryo from her egg, case closed. If not, some more testing would be needed. Also, a genetic advantage is the reason most athletes get the gold. If she has a rare/new trait, what are you going to do when a larger percentage of the population has it in the future? It's just as discriminatory to ban them now as it would be later. Especially if it's a naturally acquired trait.

    16. Re:Easy by ToreTS · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, I imagine they would be doing a PCR assay looking for the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, which is what gets things going in the male direction during foetal development. This would have a greater chance of detecting any abnormalities since in some rare cases, the SRY gene can end up on the X chromosome, giving an XX male. This would not be detected by a karyotype, but would show up on a PCR assay. Also, PCR is heavily automatised and probably easier to do than a karyotype, which involves a lot of human work. There are also other conditions that could cause something to go wrong, such as being a XY male with some defect in testosterone synthesis/sensitivity. Anyways, if she has the SRY gene, then that is a pretty strong indicator that her genes intended for her to be a man, but that something happened during foetal development to make things go another way.

    17. Re:Easy by crmarvin42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Anything that makes her develop into a woman is the result of the SRY gene being silenced.

      In this case Phenotype is more important than genotype. It'd be like a professional body building association requiring all body builders be tested for genes that result in superior muscling, which are very rare. Something like the Double Muscling genes. Ultimatly the Constitution lied and we are all not "Created Equal". Some of us a genetic predispositions to excel in various endeavors. She shouldn't be punished. If she has female phenotype, then she is a female. Regardelss of whether or not the SRY gene is present anywhere, it's not being expressed.

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    18. Re:Easy by Rei · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's short for "huevos a los doce".

      --
      Don't disrespect the denim sheep.
    19. Re:Easy by brizzadizza · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Kudos to you on your excellent post. Its refreshing to see you didn't get defensive at the "Fucking Moron" thing. That said, I believe, although this may be an unwarranted assumption on my part, the GP meant to suggest that even though a person could be chromosomally male or female they could in fact be gendered in other ways. And this is before considering things like Turner Syndrome or other sex chromosome related syndromes. We would most likely all agree that a developmentally standard individual should be sexed according to their external genitalia, but what of androgen insensitive males who were raised as females (a practice that used to be common) or women with Turner Mosaicism wherein many of her cells would exhibit XO and others would exhibit XX. Aneuploidy is a heady subject with some interesting implications for our understanding of sex and gender. Course, I could be way wrong about the intention of the GP, he seems kind of like a dick.

    20. Re:Easy by Onymous+Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, we must stop the mutants.

      Test for presence of the X-gene and detain them if they test positive.

      At least disqualify them from athletic competition for starters.

    21. Re:Easy by baboo_jackal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Divisions in sport are totally arbitrary and the point of them is to match individuals or teams of nearly equal ability so that the outcomes of their contests are maximally uncertain and therefore, entertaining for both the observers and the participants. Nobody wants to watch a game where they already know who will win. Likewise, the athletes don't want to compete in a contest they're sure to lose.

      Even if this "female" turns out to be an actual chick, it doesn't matter. If she's "too good" for her arbitrary division (which in this case happens to be by gender), then she will be excluded from it.

    22. Re:Easy by kimvette · · Score: 5, Informative

      What if it turns out she is in fact intersexed? Should she be banned from competing as a woman?

      Intersexed people are not so rare. XXY, XX males, and XY females do exist. True hermaphrodites are less common, but again, not as rare as you would think. In my case, I am a true hermaphrodite, have CAH and both XX and XY genes (genetic mosaicism), which leads doctors to believe I absorbed a twin in-utero. As I get older I am unfortunately becoming more androgynous.

      I had severe migraines my whole life, was ALWAYS hungry (I could eat an entire sub, a large candy bar, drink a coke, and still be hungry) - and could not gain weight no matter how much I ate. I went for all kinds of testing and one doctor mentioned my adrenals "are a little off" and when I asked what that meant he said it's not a big deal. Years later, I went through a very stressful situation and my adrenal glands finally decided to really act up. I gained 60lbs within six months and developed facial hair growth. I hated doctors by that point (being intersexed they wanted to use me as a guinea pig and get published, making names for themselves) so I didn't get checked out until a couple of years went by and things got so bad I was getting 3-4 migraines a week, went from bad-tempered to downright bitchy (read: batshit insane! ;)), and had severe heart pain. I finally got checked out by a cardiac physiologist friend (who had been telling me I have adrenal issues all along and had to get all soy out of my diet) who checked with a specialist friend of his after pulling my medical records, and confirmed the CAH suspicions. Why didn't my doctors catch that? The problem is now that my adrenals are functioning so poorly I gain weight easily.

      Within a couple of days of eliminating soy from my diet, the jaundice, migraines, fatigue, insomnia, heart palpitations (and resultant pain), and my behavioral issues disappeared completely. Now I don't get migraines unless I accidentally (or on rare occasion knowingly) ingest soy (vegetable oil, vegetable protein, vegetable shortening, etc.. all contain soy proteins). My mood changed and I no longer had a quick temper. It turns out I had a slight soy allergy and a severe intolerance. The intolerance comes from the SW/CAH.

      For my adrenal condition now doctors want to put me on corticosteroids, which will make me even more andgrogynous. I won't do that. So, what I decided to do instead was to adjust my diet to include a LOT more cholesterol, and a lot more salt (for the electrolyte imbalance). The extra cholesterol provides my adrenal glands with more cortisol precursors so that they can manufacture a little more cortisol, eliminating the need for injections.

      Taking in a lot more cholesterol eliminated the kidney pain (my adrenals were irritating my kidneys), and eliminated the constant hunger feeling. Before then, I never knew what it was like to not feel hunger pangs.

      Doctors often coerce parents to choose one sex over the other, in the name of profit. Peforming those "corrective" surgeries on infants is profitable, and they encourage parents to hide it from their children. In many cases, doctors don't even inform the parents of the causes of the intersex condition, and/or don't describe it as an intersex/hermaphroditic condition but as an "anomoly" which is intentionally vague. Unfortunately, in the case of children with CAH or PAIS, hiding those problems and not informing their children of their health condition can often lead to future health and societal problems.

      Had I known then what I knew now (I knew of the cosmetic situation when I was a child, but was never informed of the underlying causes - and neither were my parents) I'd have known to avoid soy, keep my electrolytes up, and eat extra cholesterol. On top of that, avoiding the temper issues would have allowed me to advance my career even more quickly than I did before I left the corporate life (I had a severe dislike for corporate politics because it irritated me. Now I'd welcome it and play the game, knowing

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    23. Re:Easy by hardwarefreak · · Score: 3, Informative

      X-gene? I think you mean the Y-chromosome.

      Kratisto can't be a geek. "Mutant X gene", Kratisto, as in the X-Men movies. Please drop off your geek badge on the way out the door.

    24. Re:Easy by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Funny

      The first clue was when she kept leaving the toilet seat up.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    25. Re:Easy by nbauman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not only is the genetics of sexuality complicated, scientists haven't even identified all the genes.

      Even worse, they identified a lot of genes that turned out to wrong.

      Remember USP9Y? That's the gene that's supposed to be responsible for loss of sperm production in deletions of the AZFa region -- the balls of the AZFa region, as it were.

      The New England Journal of Medicine had a report last February of a man who had the whole USP9Y gene deleted, and still was able to produce sperm. In fact, his father had the same USP9Y deletion.

      You can divide the genes that determine human sexuality into two groups. One group determines the form that genitals take. The other group determines all the other physical and psychological aspects of sexuality. Conceptually, it's easy to see how someone could develop with female genitals and everything else male. That doesn't mean that anyone has identified it as a syndrome, much less the genes and protein-level mechanisms.

      I assume they'll give Caster Semenya a karyotyping, FISH, and test for every known gene involved with sexual development. Maybe they'll find an abnormality, and maybe they won't.

      But that won't answer the question. Is somebody female because she has female genitals, XX karyotype, some arbitrary sex-determining genes, female hormones, female body type, or female reproductive ability? Gender is a social construct, not a lab test.

      (BTW, I think the New Scientist had an article on this subject of sex tests for athletes a few years ago.)

    26. Re:Easy by CronoCloud · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Even more important: unlike trannies (no offense intended to any TG folk reading this), we intersexed people do not choose to be in the situation we are in. I

      Interesting post you wrote. I'm transgendered, and I, meaning I personally, didn't choose to be trans. Trans is something I am, not that I pay attention to those HBSers who call themselves brain-intersexed that annoy you IS people so much. I didn't choose to be trans, but how I respond to trans and act upon my trans...that is the choice.

      I've been touched by IS too, and my genito-urinary system has given me trouble since I was young. Had a nice perineal urethrotomy in late spring to bypass all that. But I don't identify as IS, since, again, I know how IS folk feel about what they see as some transfolk trying to appropriate the IS identity and I had read about transgender stuff before I even knew I was IS. Doctors had never explained my problems to my parents and never ever used the word hypospadias. I was curious when my problems started getting worse a few years back and went back to the hospital and asked for my old records as a kid (when they tried to fix my recurring meatal stenosis and urethral strictures....twice)

    27. Re:Easy by dbIII · · Score: 2, Informative

      There are a lot of situations where the testing didn't work - including such a spectacular failure as a woman that later gave birth to children failing the test. There has also never been an imposter revealed by these tests. Here's a short article on the history of sex testing in sport:
      http://www.playthegame.org/knowledge-bank/articles/the-major-medical-blunder-of-the-twentieth-century-1090.html
      It has certainly destroyed a few careers, for instance Santhi Soundararajan.

    28. Re:Easy by cas2000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That said, it's not fair for a woman with a genetic abnormality that gives her to the build of a man and allows her to set records that are unbeatable by women without the abnormality.

      yeah, that's unfair. almost as unfair as freaks with the genetic abnormality of being able to run fast or be good at weight-lifting or great hand-eye co-ordination winning all the damn time.

      freaks (or to use the politically-correct euphemism "winners") shouldn't be allowed to compete against normal people. it's not fair that they're good at something.

    29. Re:Easy by Alex+Belits · · Score: 3, Funny

      he seems kind of like a dick.

      I have to point out that in the context of this discussion (and by virtue of being Anonymous Coward) GP may be male or female, and independently of that be or not be a dick.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    30. Re:Easy by Trillian_1138 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd like to echo CronoCloud's sentiment, as another trans /.er: Being trans isn't something anyone chooses to be.

      I totally understand and respect the more understandably medical situation that intersexed people are in and, for you, the issues that required a particular medical/biological solution. Likewise, if I'm misunderstanding what you wrote, kimvette, I apologize. All that said, I read, "It's not like we're cheating. We're dealt an unusual hand and society often punishes us for it because we do not conform to the norm." as implying A) trans people are cheating and B) trans people - and any who don't fit into nice, simple, gendered boxes - aren't also dealt an unusual hand, and punished accordingly for it by society.

      (I'm realizing as I reread your post that it's entirely possibly you mean "It's not like we're cheating" in reference to the original issue of the athlete in question. If that's the case, scratch the above paragraph.)

      I don't want to get into an Oppression Olympics, and I'm not for a second trying to deny the very real issues that all intersexed people, and you specifically, have faced. But I hope it's possible to express your experiences without feeling the need to justify them by calling into question the validity of trans experiences.

      -Trillian

    31. Re:Easy by Zemran · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Although I generally accept your points I do feel that without other categories she can only be male or female. Unless another category is introduced she must be one of those. I can accept the rare examples that make selection difficult but really it seems that she is just a really ugly girl and is being treated unfairly. If it turns out that she has cheated, i.e. born a boy and had an operation then the fuss is justified but otherwise it is just extremely insensitive.

      Sport is the domain of genetically abnormal people. A good runner is likely to have longer legs than normal etc.. I do not bitch about being unfairly treated because my short fat fingers make me a crap pianist and try and say that the average good pianist with long thin finger is a cheat. O.K., so this girl might be a bit more different but unless it is her fault then I do not see the arguement.

      --
      I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
    32. Re:Easy by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Informative

      Chromosomes aren't bits. You can theoretically have any number of chromosomes in your cells, most combinations just aren't viable and lead to a miscarriage or severe defects.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    33. Re:Easy by Bluesman · · Score: 5, Funny

      Nobody wants to watch a game where they already know who will win. Likewise, the athletes don't want to compete in a contest they're sure to lose.

      The continued existence of the Baltimore Orioles disproves your assertion.

      --
      If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
    34. Re:Easy by Elledan · · Score: 5, Informative

      Right now a similar investigation is taking place in my case as well. I was born intersexual, have a female build, but male genitals, possibly female too (no two radiologists seem to agree on the MRI images). I really hope that the genetical testing will tell me once and for all why I ended up like this with a body that is clearly neither male nor female, even if anyone who meets me on the street, at the pool, or at the gym, will call me female, and my ID card keeps getting (nearly) refused all the time.

      Worst is that the law here in the Netherlands doesn't allow me to have my official name and gender changed (I'm currently registered as male) due to the law only being focused on transsexuals (gender reassignment surgery requirement, which is impossible for intersexual people).

      You can find more info on my case at my site, www.mayaposch.com.

      --
      Site & blog: http://www.mayaposch.com
    35. Re:Easy by Kt.foss.zealot · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I too am a transgendered slashdotter,
      And as I see it, being transgendered is not a choice, just like being born with any condition is not a choice, if someone has gender dysphoria, it's there, there is no choice about that. While technically choosing to transition IS a choice, to me it's kind of like the choice between fleeing a burning building or letting it engulf you in flames.

      I don't really understand your need to use transgendered people as a way to validate yourself to slashdotters or society, as I too have been "dealt an unusual hand and society often punishes us for it because we do not conform to the norm." Surely you understand that gender dysphoria is not something anyone chooses?

      As for sports, If I were even interested in competing, I would compete as a woman and I would not feel like I was cheating, I have been on HRT since before puberty so I don't understand how I would have an unfair advantage. Though I would rather see sports not segregated by sex at all, just let everyone compete together, OR have seperate leages based on bodysize/musclemass/whatever.

    36. Re:Easy by p-k4 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One of the most surefire way is to see if her gametes can play their respective roll. If they can manage to form a viable embryo from her egg, case closed.

      On a practical side you would never get this past any ethics committee. They would laugh you out of the room for proposing to create a new human life to determine gender.

      --
      Dean's Rule #45. The truth hurts for a moment. A lie hurts for a long time.
    37. Re:Easy by It's+Pat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maya, thanks for sharing. I've read your blog and it sounds like life is very difficult for you. Hang in there! The comments here have helped me understand the full spectrum of possible sexual outcomes. It makes sense: when we are all created from the same parts, then differentiated in the womb based on various genetic and biochemical reasons, it is only logical that there will be a variety of possible outcomes. My point is that you are human as we all are, but you are unaccepted based on our ignorance of your situation and others like you. Your blog and the information you share helps to educate others, so please keep it up. I have no way to understand how difficult life must be for you, and I suppose it must be easy to despair living in a world that judges books by their cover's rather than their content. There are many in this world who know how to look deeper, I hope that you have found some of these folks or that you will find them soon.

    38. Re:Easy by snowgirl · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh, that's right. I forgot there's only two options and no possibility of deviation from those options AT ALL.

      Fucking moron.

      Since in the vast majority of cases, it really is one of those two options - it seems like the logical first step, given that invasive testing is apparently already the norm for track and field anymore. If Caster's test shows XX or XY, either way the case is closed. Arguing that a remote possibility of a different genetic state exists means you can't first test for the heavily dominant typical state is, quite frankly, silly. That's like arguing that a doctor shouldn't do an influenza test on a patient with flu-like symptoms because there's a remote possibility it's Brucellosis.

      They believe that she has congenital adrenal hyperplasia... if she does have that, then she's most likely XX. The problem is that there is no belief that she has an abnormal genotype or abnormal genitalia. They believe she has something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

      This is a hormone imbalance, specifically in that it causes the adrenal glands to produce too much androgens/steroids. She's naturally doped up the same as a man would be. That does not necessarily however make her a "man", any more than an XX genotype make her a "woman".

      Considering that a hormone panel takes less time and is less invasive than a genetic screening, I think that should be the FIRST and FOREMOST test upon women competing... you know, while you're testing for those artificial steroids, why not look at the natural levels of them as well?!

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    39. Re:Easy by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Jars? Son, she can open cans.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  3. This is /. by desertfool · · Score: 3, Funny

    I doubt most people here would have experience with that.

    (sorry, just a bad joke.)

    --
    Just a dude. Stuck in IT.
  4. Genetic by cob666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I would think that a genetic test would prove whether or not she was.. well... a she.

    --
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
    1. Re:Genetic by Yvanhoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That.
      I would also use this occasion to state my amusement to see these sports officials embarrassed about someone having a clear advantage that can not be put on special training, drugs, equipment or techniques. At a high level, performances in sports like athletics will show differences that can have a clear genetic cause (that's okay. That is, after all, a feature of evolution, that some individual will outperform others on specific tasks) yet refuse to acknowledge it and emphasize on the training and work of athletes.

      Athletes keep talking about sports' spirit, about how it is all about fairness and balance. I am happy to see some reminders that top competitions are mostly about unfair genetic advantage. This focus on the top 1st, the gold medal, the world champion, is a bit insane. The most respectable difference I see in sport is between amateur and well-trained. Between these two levels, the difference is clear and is mostly about efforts. But it is not very convenient or spectacular to build a mediafest around.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    2. Re:Genetic by Trepidity · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Indeed, some more organized and large countries (China being the most effective current example) have programs to try to find people with particular genetic variants to recruit into sports. Want to dope people with testosterone but it's illegal? Find someone with abnormally high levels of testosterone naturally! Thinking of competing in a sport where HGH would help? Find a guy who naturally produces really high levels. Etc.

      I guess I don't find that process that interesting. Is there really anything better or more fair about a guy who produces abnormally high levels of HGH, vs. someone else injecting HGH? Why is one more interesting to watch than the other? It seems the only possible answer is attaching some sort of mysticism to the fact that one was "natural".

    3. Re:Genetic by Ritz_Just_Ritz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Genetic variants? By many accounts, China outright fabricated passports for some of their prepubescent gymnasts in the last olympics. After an initial hand flapping, that got ignored. But some poor girl who (apparently through no fault of her own) has some natural advantage is being punished. That is simply crazy.

    4. Re:Genetic by Sique · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Persons who have the chromosome configuration XYXX tend to develop female genitals, even though they have an Y. So what are they?

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    5. Re:Genetic by pinkj · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We need:

      The Hormonally Abnormal Olympics
      The Clone Olympics (identical twins, triplets, etc.)
      The Trans Olympics
      The Hermaphrodite Olympics

    6. Re:Genetic by Hungus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here you go in a nice logical format:
      the set "Proper Y" belongs to the superset "Y" or Yo -> Y
      the set "Defective Y" belongs to the superset "Y" or Y' ->Y
      Yo+Y' = Y
      Y -> male
      Y' -> male
      therefore the statement that "The only time such women typically discover they have a Yis when they discover they have fertility problems." is a nonsensical. Your statement should thus be:"The only time these men with female genitalia typically discover they have a Y is when they discover they have fertility problems."

      --
      Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
  5. Simple... if "Y" chromosome found = male by Fallen+Kell · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As subject says. If there is a "Y" cromosome, well, you have a male then...

    --
    We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
    1. Re:Simple... if "Y" chromosome found = male by packeteer · · Score: 2, Informative

      You know that some people with XXY chromosomes are identified as female right?

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    2. Re:Simple... if "Y" chromosome found = male by xZgf6xHx2uhoAj9D · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even more confusing, how would you classify a chimera where some body parts have Y chromosomes and some don't?

    3. Re:Simple... if "Y" chromosome found = male by chill · · Score: 4, Informative

      [citation needed]

      Every reference I could fine indicated that Klinefelter's Syndrome was considered "males born with extra chromosome". Wikipedia is just one, but everything else I found thru Google on "xxy chromosome" referred to the people born with this condition as "male".

      Can you site a reference otherwise?

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    4. Re:Simple... if "Y" chromosome found = male by SnoopJeDi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's Not That Simpleâ.

      Besides, you're ignoring the point. The real issue here is highlighted by this passage:

      But now the IAAF claim that they want to conduct further tests to see if 'she may have a rare medical condition that gives her an unfair advantage.'

      In a world where people can change their identities at will (transsexualism, etc.), or otherwise, what changes need to be made to the outdated simple classifications?

      And additionally, the obnoxious notion of "fairness" further complicates the issue.

    5. Re:Simple... if "Y" chromosome found = male by Sancho · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And additionally, the obnoxious notion of "fairness" further complicates the issue.

      When issues like these come up, I'm always reminded of Harrison Bergeron

    6. Re:Simple... if "Y" chromosome found = male by gparent · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well man, if she's a chimera too we're fucked.

  6. Medical advantage by Daimanta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "she may have a rare medical condition that gives her an unfair advantage.' "

    What kind of bullshit is this? Your genetics are 80% of the winning. Personally, I was born with messed up feet so I have always known that I wouldn't be the sprinting world champion. The fact that this woman(because that's what she is) has the better genetic profile to win these kinds of races is to her advantage and the people who didn't win are to accept that or play another game.

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
    1. Re:Medical advantage by NoobixCube · · Score: 4, Interesting

      To expand on what you said, if she's banned or pulled back because of her genetic condition, then you can probably expect your gold medal in the mail any day now. Treating people differently for their genetics has a very bad history so far, and sets a bad precedent for the future. Wake me up when the question is about whether someone genetically engineered to be better should compete in the same league as naturals. That's an interesting topic since genetic engineering could be construed as a performance enhancement.

      --
      Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
    2. Re:Medical advantage by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Informative

      because it's already based entirely on the assumption that to be "fair", we ought to first do some genetic segregation

      They allow M2F transgendered persons to compete as women provided they've been on hormone therapy continuously for two or more years -- because it's been proven that hormones have a far greater role in athletic performance than genetics. So genetics is really not the issue here.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    3. Re:Medical advantage by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's especially interesting how outraged people got at the "chauvinistic" attitudes of people "assuming" that better performance means male. They certainly didn't complain about the fact that these events are split up by gender in the first place -- if they don't want questions like this, then simply make one mixed-gender competition, problem solved.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    4. Re:Medical advantage by girlintraining · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Assuming you're right (and I don't know either way), I imagine that such a rule would disappear quickly if these transgendered women started *winning* against the `real' women consistently. They would only allow something like that if it didn't actually make a difference. Once it made a difference, people would argue it was unfair and it would be thrown out.

      I'd have to say the entire idea of athletic competition is a farce. We say genetics don't matter, but we've got demonstrated proof that certain clusters of genes lead to better physical performance -- and that almost without fail, the athletes in the top 0.01% of their sport have some or all of those genetic markers. Arguing over who is more 'real' than others is an argument that goes against nature; Questions about how 'real' they were would never come up if they weren't in a competition. If they weren't being reduced from human beings into objects for us to cheer, dissect, and comment about.

      We're creating an arbitrary line in the sand -- telling people they can't take certain drugs, or that their hormone levels need to be a certain way, or that they need to be born in just such a fashion, or raised just so -- in order to pass for "real". Most of the debate on this forum is not intellectual discourse but a mere re-arrangement of our prejudices.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    5. Re:Medical advantage by LaskoVortex · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ummm yeah! But it's not so rare. It's called being a GUY.

      It's going to be unpopular here but I'll say it. That woman is the manliest looking 15 year old female on god's good earth. She walks like a man, talks like a man, has muscles like a man, and the general countenance of a man.

      People here are treating her case as if she were clearly a female and so are giving her a lot of leeway to be whatever gender she wants. But they are going to be crying foul play if she turns up a man and she is going to be cast a villain for it.

      What a difference gender makes, right folks?

      Own up to the gender favoritism, kids. When we think someone is a woman, we make psychological concessions, and any big bad man who suspects she might be male is unfair.

      None of the crusaders for her cause to be any gender she desires is thinking of her competitors or of the general concept of fairness.

      If she has such spectacular genetics, let her compete with the men.

      --
      Just callin' it like I see it.
    6. Re:Medical advantage by radtea · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So genetics is really not the issue here.

      Huh?

      For people who don't take hormones, where do you think they come from?

      That's right: our genes tell our cells to manufacture them! Some women manufacture more testosterone than others (so do some men) as well as other hormones, and these genetic differences in hormone production are a significant factor in athletic performance.

      All top-ranked athletes are genetic freaks. This one is just more-so, and to arbitrarily rule her out of competition is silly.

      All categories are artificial, the result of lines we draw between similar things to allow us to think easily about concepts rather than individuals. However, all the lines we draw are created for a given purpose, and they may not be adequate for other purposes. This is a case when a line-of-convenience has been drawn between men and women that happens to lump together things like developed breasts, lack of facial hair, and female genitalia. She hast the last characteristic, but not the former two, so the line breaks down.

      The solution to this kind of extremely common problem is to create a new category that covers the intermediate region. For example, we have areas of the Earth that are covered by deep water, and we call them "oceans". We have areas of the Earth that are pretty much dry, and we call them "land". But we also have areas in between that we call "beaches" that contain pretty much arbitrary mixes of land and water at different times.

      Only a flaming idiot would suggest either that "land" and "water" aren't useful categories because there are regions that can't be adequately put into one or the other, and only a flaming idiot would suggest that "beach" isn't a valid category because "land" and "water" are "real" categories and "beach" is some kind of weird made-up thing that falls in between them. All categories are made up--the only question is, "Are they useful or not?" (note that the way the world actually is puts significant constraints on what categories are useful, but does not in any way determine them uniquely, which frustrates innumerate philosophers.)

      In the present case, we only have one instance of the potential new category, which isn't an adequate basis for creating it, and the rough, crude and approximate division into "male" and "female" has a whole lot of social machinery of sport built around it, so adding a new category for this person isn't an option.

      What is an option is to let her compete in the category she most closely resembles: genetically freakish women of the kind who make great athletes, which is happily the company she finds herself in if she is permitted to compete as a woman.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    7. Re:Medical advantage by StreetStealth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Over the course of this young century, the case you make will become all the more apparent to everyone else. I don't know what will happen in the middle of it, but by the end of the century, the Olympics, if they are still practiced, will be more akin to F1 racing than Hellenistic sport -- there will be a single human who pilots her body, but that body will bear the labor of a whole team of skilled engineers.

      --
      Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
  7. Genetic Advantage by masmullin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Everyone competing in IAAF competitions should be fat, lazy, nonathletic, slobs. Otherwise its unfair to all the fat, lazy, nonathletic slobs who just cant compete.

    1. Re:Genetic Advantage by selven · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I like this. Instead of countries picking their athletes, we could randomly pick people to go. Would be much more interesting.

  8. Awesome by WiiVault · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One reason I would never hope to be rich and in the spot light is stuff like this. Ask Richard Gere how long shit like this can follow you. If it its true it is a pretty personal outting.

    1. Re:Awesome by earthbound+kid · · Score: 2, Informative
    2. Re:Awesome by Artifakt · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're better off. Richard Gere didn't do anything. A person who looked (sort of) like him was admitted to a mid-western hospital with an embarrassing situation, and a rumor got started that it was Richard himself. That rumor has followed the poor man for over 20 years, despite being traced to its origin. That's probably what will happen in this case. The sports officials will run tests until they get to some sort of conclusion, and the rumors will fly until nobody knows what the decision actually was.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
  9. Re:Obvious solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    As a general rule, if you can't tell what she is, then run.

  10. Re:Obvious solution by ultrabot · · Score: 5, Funny

    If you can make love to her, then she is a woman (provided that you know where you put your willy in)...

    ... or, if she uses the term "make love" for the act, she is a woman.

    --
    Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
  11. I can do the opposite by oldhack · · Score: 2, Funny

    If you ever posted here, you know you are not a REAL female. You may even look like one, but you know, deep inside, you have big question mark lingering. Don't you!

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    1. Re:I can do the opposite by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you ever posted here, you know you are not a REAL female. You may even look like one, but you know, deep inside, you have big question mark lingering. Don't you!

      Nope. Still got tits. I think the problem is on your end.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
  12. Simple Test: by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

    Kick them in the nuts really hard. If they don't fold over in pain and whimper an octave higher, they're female.

    1. Re:Simple Test: by BlueParrot · · Score: 2, Informative

      Kick them in the nuts really hard. If they don't fold over in pain and whimper an octave higher, they're female.

      As a transsexual I can inform you that destroying/removing the the testicles does not result in your voice going higher in pitch once it has dropped. The larynx grow bigger under influence by testosterone, but it does not shrink again when testosterone is removed, nor does it do so under influence of oestrogen. Furthermore the difference in pitch between men and women is less than a full octave, which is why many transsexuals are still able to achieve a reasonably passable voice through voice training.

    2. Re:Simple Test: by Anti_Climax · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think they were referring to the comical voice pitch change done in movies following a kick in the testicles, not a permanent change in voice caused by their destruction/removal.

      --
      Even people that believe in pre-destiny look both ways before crossing the street.
  13. Gender isn't sex. by girlintraining · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think slashdot should start with the correct definitions, being a technical community and all: Sex is, Gender does. Second, Slashdot of all places should know that the two are correlations, not causations. And lastly, I'd like to believe that as a community that espouses scientific values and intelligent discourse, the answer should be obvious:

    You can't.

    Life is full of delicious ambiguity, and people assume that two polar opposites (male and female) have nothing in between. But life isn't like that. Life is a spectrum, and any place we draw the line is arbitrary -- not natural. Nature has its own laws, which are not the laws of men.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:Gender isn't sex. by Planesdragon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And lastly, I'd like to believe that as a community that espouses scientific values and intelligent discourse, the answer should be obvious:...

      Bad girlintrainig! You never, ever, EVER presume that just because someone is smart and intelligent they should agree with you -- or that, just because someone disagrees with you, they're either not smart or not intelligent.

      I'd say it's far more scientific to brand gender and sex as immutable based on your genetics than to relegate it to subjective measurements And on that note...

      Life is full of delicious ambiguity, and people assume that two polar opposites (male and female) have nothing in between. But life isn't like that. Life is a spectrum, and any place we draw the line is arbitrary -- not natural. Nature has its own laws, which are not the laws of men.,

      A female is an organism that can produce an ova to create young during its lifespan. A male is an organism that can create sperm to fertilize said Ova during its lfiespan. This is not arbitrary -- this is the scientific definition from biology. Any organism that can do neither of those two during its lifespan is neuter, and any that can do both is hemaphroditic (sic). ANY OTHER DEFINITION is cultural, subjective, non-scientific crap.

    2. Re:Gender isn't sex. by TeknoHog · · Score: 4, Funny

      Nature has its own laws, which are not the laws of men.

      Exactly, they are the laws of women.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    3. Re:Gender isn't sex. by Trepidity · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree with most of that, but in:

      Sex is, Gender does. Second, Slashdot of all places should know that the two are correlations, not causations.

      I think it would be hard to argue that there isn't at least some causal effect between sex and gender. Surely it's not merely a coincidental correlation that, in animals having the XY sex-determination system (incl. all mammals), the vast majority of individuals with XX configuration turn out to have primary and secondary sexual characteristics grouped as "female" and play "female" gender roles; and the same with XY and "male"?

    4. Re:Gender isn't sex. by MartinSchou · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So women who have their ovaries removed become men?

      He already said that someone who couldn't produce either is a neuter.

      So if I chop your nuts off, you become a woman?

      He already said that someone who couldn't produce either is a neuter.

      I realise you don't buy into that definition, which is fine, but it is a waste of time asking a stupid question that has nothing to do with what he was saying.

      And even if you were genuinely curious about his answer to those two questions, you'd still need to clarify - after all, when we cut the nuts off a male dog, we say it's been neutered. And at what point is this surgery done? At birth before any eggs or sperm have been produced? Are they adult? You don't care about the answers (neither do I) - you're just engaging in a really silly argument.

      His statement is essentially nine plus nine equals eighteen. And you're arguing that this is incorrect because it's not true if we're using base eight in which neither nine or eighteen exists.

  14. easy by commodoresloat · · Score: 2, Funny

    just ask "asl?"

  15. always trouble in the gray areas by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Most people have an okay time with "male" and "female" as unproblematic concepts, because for the majority of people all the things that might go into the concepts correlate at least reasonably well. Most females are genetically XX, and have both primary and secondary sexual characteristics typical of females. Most males are XY, and have primary/secondary characteristics typical of males.

    If those things aren't all correlated nicely, though, it makes clear that there isn't really a solid definition that covers all aspects of what we mean. A genetic test for XX vs. XY? (And then what do you do about XXY?) Just an issue of primary sexual traits? (Do secondary sexual traits matter?) A combination of all the above? (And then what do you do if they don't all match up?)

    At some point the distinctions become somewhat arbitrary, and to me at least not all that interesting: there isn't actually any magical "right" answer to the question. Perhaps to get an answer that makes sense in this context we might first answer: what is the purpose of having separate male/female sporting competitions, and which definition of sex or gender would contribute towards that purpose best?

  16. Turing Test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Question:
    Have you gained weight?

    Answers:
    Yeah, I should hit the gym. - Male
    Whaaa... you don't love me anymore! - Female

  17. Two words: by olsmeister · · Score: 5, Funny

    Driving test.

  18. Bloody difficult. by El+Jynx · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Considering that there are plenty of creatures which can be hermaphrodites, and that there are rare genetic variations (YXYY, for example) where one is born with e.g. male characteristics while the sexual organs may be female, this is a difficult point. Where do you draw the line? I know of a few lesbians who, except for the chest, could easily pass for male: large arms and hands, low voice, etc.

    The sexual differences are fairly pronounced for "normal" men and women, but there are plenty of in-betweens. Methinks the only thing they can do is make an extensive study of all the differences between men and women, and say that if more than an x number of variables lean towards the one or the other, the person in question must be considered as being of the opposite sex. Either that, or you have to create the Hermaphrodite Olympics. They'll probably still have to investigate each case separately either way.

    --
    A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it well worth the effort.
    1. Re:Bloody difficult. by cob666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I somewhat agree with you but a 'rare genetic variation' is simply that, RARE. Under normal circumstances, there are genetic markers that distinguish a male from a female and if this particular athlete has a rare variation or abnormality in his/her DNA then that bridge should be crossed when it's come to.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
    2. Re:Bloody difficult. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And yet trans people can compete at an Olympic level if they meet specific requirements by way of medical status.
      So let me ask a bigger question. Why does it matter?

      Keep in mind that I ask as a trans woman myself... Why does it matter what her genotype is?
      There is no way that I could compete at that level with any of those women regardless of my biological history, and after 5 years on hormones and androgen blockers, I'm much closer to the strength of a cis woman than anything else, and I know many who are stronger than I.

      This effect is only enhanced when someone has SRS... testosterone production drops to near zero, and muscle density and power follows it down.

      So... the question is... So What?

      For further perspective, check this article: http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2009/08/black-female-athlete-dominates.html. This is not an isolated incident, this is a common accusation in sports.

    3. Re:Bloody difficult. by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I think they would have to define a man as someone that is XY and a woman as someone that is XX, anything else doesn't qualify or gets removed based on medical grounds. After all people with medical conditions that require them to take drugs to stay healthy aren't allowed to compete because they are "doping" so why not someone that has a medical condition that makes them not normal as far as their genetics go. Sure athletes tend to be genetically odd a bit anyways, but I think there is a difference from having an unusually quick fast twitch response and having an extra chromosome.

      Also I think you have to define it genetically otherwise people that have a sex change could compete as the sex they want to.

    4. Re:Bloody difficult. by INT_QRK · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why obsess over it in the first place? What, in the grad scheme of things, difference does it make? So, what if one or two hermaphrodites, or for that matter impostors, do get away with it? It's just freaking sports. I'd recommend standard diligence and then take any later revelations as and if they come.

    5. Re:Bloody difficult. by tsm_sf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You know, from my point of view, all of these world-class athletes are genetic abnormalities. It's a little rich for them to point to the best of themselves and yell "SHE'S the freak!"

      --
      Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
    6. Re:Bloody difficult. by Narcocide · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As a trans woman yourself, do you mind if I ask you a serious question?

      Please forgive my ignorance as well as the fact I am going to ask in this same post without permission anyway; Do you think that we are doing the LONG-TERM future of competitive sports an injustice by not just completely removing gender segregation entirely from sports and finding a more fair type of skill stratification based on actual strength and endurance testing rather than naive and sometimes incorrect gender/chromosome-based assumptions?

    7. Re:Bloody difficult. by WillyWanker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Here's the problem: while she might be genetically female, and have female genitalia, I think there is a very strong likelihood she has some kind of severe hormone imbalance that is pumping extreme amounts of testosterone into her system. This would account for her physique, total lack of breasts, deep voice, facial hair, etc. Most likely she has some kind of tumor on her adrenal glands.

      And therein lies the issue. If her body is producing much more testosterone than it should be, it's ultimately no different than if she were taking steroids -- it gives her an unfair advantage over the competition that have normal levels of testosterone.

      I also understand there is a fine line to be drawn here. It's easy to say "well this is the way she was born, it's not like she's using illegal drugs", but the end result is the same. But it could be a slippery slope. We know that, for example, certain body types are better at swimming than others (tall and lanky, long arms and feet -- basically Michael Phelps). Do we then disqualify athletes that have a "genetic" advantage? Of course that's not right either.

      I think it has to come down to whether a deviation is grossly abnormal or within what would be considered as normal. Michael Phelps, although physically advantaged to swimming, still has normal body proportions. If his arms or feet were grossly and abnormally long, would it still be considered fair?

    8. Re:Bloody difficult. by SupremoMan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So she has a rare genetic makeup, doesn't every world class athlete have a rare genetic makeup? I consider myself ordinary male and I can't do most of the stuff even a female Olympic athlete can.

    9. Re:Bloody difficult. by El+Jynx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From an evolutionary standpoint, it would be wise to banish gender differences altogether, allow doping, and reward the winners with a show to find 20 women willing to bear their children. It would cause plenty of havoc along the way, but that seems to be the way it works.

      From a more pragmatic standpoint, I think you have to define male and female and discuss each exception separately. There's an inherent problem in questions like this: how far until you cross the line? Each person has an average of 200 mutations compared to the next person, and sometimes they stack; this creates our losers and junkies, athletes and geniuses, average joes, idiot savants and much more. The ultimate problem is that in a universe where everything is unique, you just can't work with laws. And I have no idea of how to tackle THAT problem. ;)

      --
      A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it well worth the effort.
    10. Re:Bloody difficult. by Frater+219 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think they would have to define a man as someone that is XY and a woman as someone that is XX, anything else doesn't qualify or gets removed based on medical grounds.

      Go read about androgen insensitivity syndrome. A person with complete androgen insensitivity has the external appearance (including external genitals) of a normal female, and usually has been raised with a female identity, and so identifies as a girl or woman. But she has no menstrual period because she has no ovaries or uterus -- she has an XY genotype and undescended internal testes. Androgens (male hormones) create the male external appearance; in the absence of androgens, a fetus develops a female appearance -- and parents and society assign a female identity.

      It seems to me that a reasonable approach to dealing fairly with intersexed people in sports would be to replace sex separation with weight-class separation. Human sex and gender turn out to be complex and fraught with both social and technical problems, and it is unreasonable to deny an athlete the chance to compete just because their genetic curiosity happens to be on the 23rd chromosome.

    11. Re:Bloody difficult. by tgatliff · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think a better way of looking at this is what is the advantage that a male has.... That is rather obvious.... Anabolic hormones. Meaning, check to see why she is so muscular. It is highly unlikely that high levels of anabolic compounds are coming from her adrenals as they do in some women.

      Meaning, instead of focusing on the genetics, why not focus on why she is beating her female peers.... Chances are they will either find some "extra" glands somewhere or they will find that she is using something she should not be using. My guess is the former...

    12. Re:Bloody difficult. by this+great+guy · · Score: 5, Informative

      "Someone who is XY or XX" is also not well-defined. Mosaicism is a condition where an individual has some XY cells, and others XX. Where do you draw the line for the individual to be a male? Does "he" have to have 50+% XY cells, 90+%, 99+% ?

      And what about the XYY syndrome? Some question whether the term "syndrome" is even appropriate because most individuals with XYY cells don't even know it as they appear to be regular healthy males. They don't have to take drugs, which defeats your first argument. Given that 1 in 1000 boys have this syndrome, it is probable that some athletes who won "male" competition have this syndrome. If we were to have these persons genetically tested today, would you retroactively strip them from their titles?

      This whole male/female question is not as trivial as it looks like.

    13. Re:Bloody difficult. by xwizbt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Perhaps as technology allows us to modify our bodies further, even down to a genetic level, such views will be considered as narrow, and even the idea of splitting athletic achievements into such primitive divisions as 'male' or 'female' will start to look silly.

      Some questions: Can men race against women? Are effeminate men allowed to race against burly men's men? What about butch women, with gruff voices and hairy legs - can they compete against delicate, perfumed counterparts? Can homosexuals race alongside straight men, and would they both refuse to try to out-race a bisexual? Does skin colour affect your ability to jump, and is it really possible to be pretty fly for a white guy? Why, finally getting to the point, do some of those questions seem ridiculous, but others don't?

    14. Re:Bloody difficult. by eldepeche · · Score: 3, Funny

      Right? Look at any NBA center. Shaq, for example, has a rare genetic condition causing him to be a fucking giant and giving him an unfair advantage over me, a 6'1" 190 lb. dude. Should he be allowed to play professional basketball? Of course.

    15. Re:Bloody difficult. by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If your body, for whatever reason, allows you to outperform others without the interference of artificial performance-enhancing substances, congratulations. You win.

      What this whole argument has thus far ignored is the fact that athletes need at least as much if not more mental strength and inherent talent than physical strength. What she has accomplished has at least as much to do with her mind as her body.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    16. Re:Bloody difficult. by Rei · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, in fact, women with AIS tend to be *less* masculinized than normal women. They're XY, and yet athletically disadvantaged compared to your average XX woman.

      And an XX man who has a migrated SRY on one of his X chromosomes, in the GP's system, would be competing against women. Testosterone and penis and all.

      --
      Don't disrespect the denim sheep.
    17. Re:Bloody difficult. by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah... There are very few sports where women would be competitive. The record difference in the 100m dash between men and women is almost a second, that's a _long_ time in the 100m dash. Any kind of boxing/weightlifting would be a joke. You'd have to go back to the 50's to find a time when the best female marathon runner of today could be the best man. Seriously I said "very few", but is there _any_ sport requiring strength, agility, or endurance where women are competitive with men?

      Sports are segregated for a reason.

    18. Re:Bloody difficult. by Estragib · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your source disagrees with you. You probably cite this:

      According to the ISNA definition above, 1 percent of live births exhibit some degree of sexual ambiguity.

      But we're talking about this:

      Between 0.1% and 0.2% of live births are ambiguous enough to become the subject of specialist medical attention, including surgery to disguise their sexual ambiguity.

      [...]

      According to Leonard Sax the prevalence of intersex "restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female" is about 0.018%.

    19. Re:Bloody difficult. by swillden · · Score: 5, Funny

      Right? Look at any NBA center. Shaq, for example, has a rare genetic condition causing him to be a fucking giant and giving him an unfair advantage over me, a 6'1" 190 lb. dude. Should he be allowed to play professional basketball? Of course.

      The NBA considered denying him permission to play, but the decision fell apart when it was realized that no one had the balls to tell Shaq about it.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    20. Re:Bloody difficult. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't flatter yourself, I expect the ordinary male cant do ANY of the stuff female Olympic athletes can.

    21. Re:Bloody difficult. by jamesh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If your body, for whatever reason, allows you to outperform others without the interference of artificial performance-enhancing substances, congratulations. You win.

      Not so fast there Mr/Ms everything-is-either-black-or-white. The whole point is that we separate mens and womens competitions so that each body type can compete on a (more) level playing field. If her body type better belongs in the mens competitions (genetics aside) then she really should be competing there instead.

    22. Re:Bloody difficult. by localman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree that there are certainly enough ambiguous gender cases to make the whole male/female sports separation to be a poor idea.

      I don't know enough about male/female performance and sports to know if weight classes would be fair enough? Is it true that generally speaking women and men of similar weight perform similarly? Is the only advantage men have the ability to grow more muscle tissue? Or is it more complex than that? If the weight thing would allow world class women (and intersexed people) to compete fairly against others in their weight class, that seems like the ideal and inevitable solution to this kind of thing.

      Cheers.

    23. Re:Bloody difficult. by Wooky_linuxer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Says who? Then all men who perform worse than (pro-)women should compete in women's competitions? Should short and weaker men be allowed in women's baskteball? The rules said that the division is based on genre. There will be people who perform exceptionally well, and sometimes genetics will play a part. Having exceptions is normal. Should we forbid every baskteball player taller than a certain amount over the average to compete since their genetics give them an unfair advantage? That's just nuts.

      --
      Where is that guy who'd die defending what I had to say when I need him?
    24. Re:Bloody difficult. by TrekkieGod · · Score: 2, Insightful

      News flash - these "sporting events" miss the entire point of sports - which is to get your obese butt off the couch and have some fun doing something more physical than popping the top off a King Can. Sports shouldn't be a "spectator sport". Just like boxing shouldn't be a sport, period - not when the goal is to beat the other person senseless. Then again, most people can't even be arsed to spend more than 15 minutes a day doing anything more strenuous than walking to the fridge.

      I would say that's a bit close-minded. Sure, the points of you participating in sports is to do something fun that is physical. The point of spectator sports is that some humans, not all, can achieve a level of performance that the majority of us can't (regardless of how much we were to train). It can be very enjoyable to watch a competition between the absolute best of our race in a particular event.

      As for boxing, the goal isn't simply to beat the other person senseless. It's to avoid letting the other person beat you senseless. If you participate, you accept to take on the same risks as your opponent. You know what those risks are and you're willing to take them on. I believe consenting adults can do whatever the hell they want, and it doesn't cease to be a sport just because it seems tasteless to you. That's fine, and it's great that you value human life to that extent, but all that it means is that it's not a sport you're interested in participating or spectating. That's fine and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not a problem with the sport itself, it's just your personal preference due to your personal beliefs.

      --

      Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

    25. Re:Bloody difficult. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      A case of true hermaphroditism with 46, XX/46, XY karyotype is reported. The propositus, reared as a male, showed ambiguous external genitalia with perineoscrotal hypospadias, and internal genitalia represented by bilateral ovotestes, normal uterus and tubes. Periodic menstrual bleedings appeared at puberty. The endocrinologic data demonstrated the secretory activity of both the ovarian and the testicular tissue. The analysis of red cell, lymphocyte and serum markers, done on the propositus and on his parents, failed to show any evidence of double fertilization. On this basis, the origin of the XX/XY condition (mosaicism versus chimerism) and its developmental consequences are discussed.

      From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/991437

    26. Re:Bloody difficult. by steelfood · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Have you even looked at female athletes, especially swimmers and weight-lifters? They have no breasts. They lack body fat, and hence lack breasts. On top of that, they actually work out so much their hormones are out of whack. If they stop working out, things go back to normal, but while they're training, they're physically a lot like men, with the exception of the genitals.

      If her body is producing an abnormal amount of testosterone, that's perfectly fine. It's not artificial. It's not unnatural. It's genetically superior. Which is, in a way, what competitions are about. It's seven parts training, and three parts genetic. If you weren't born a runner, you're not going to even come close to Usain Bolt. If you're not born a swimmer, you won't come close to Michael Phelps. That's just how it is. Things are no different just because their sex doesn't give them a head start.

      Don't ever mistake that just because somebody is born genetically superior, that they'll automatically win. Nobody can sit on their ass 364 days a year and still be superior enough to be a world-class athlete. Genetic superiority just means that given the same amount of training, the person with better genes will more likely win. But that means both competitors have to train equally as hard. And believe you me, if you knew your genetics weren't ideal for what you're competing in, you'll train extra hard to make up for the difference. And in order for your genetically superior opponent to beat you, that person would have to train just as hard as you.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    27. Re:Bloody difficult. by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But if the condition is congenital, it may be an advantage, but not an unnatural one.

  19. Re:Obvious solution by El+Jynx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I disagree. Her ability to run was what got this whole discussion started in the first place :P

    --
    A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it well worth the effort.
  20. Probably not that difficult by mdmkolbe · · Score: 3, Funny

    Considering that there are plenty of creatures which can be hermaphrodites

    We aren't talking about clown fish here. That would be a red herring. (Sorry couldn't resist the pun.)

    there are rare genetic variations ... this is a difficult point. Where do you draw the line?

    An interesting question, but probably not relevant to this particular case. We know we want to draw the line between XX and XY. Test her. If she is XX, then female. If XY, then male. It only needs to be an issue if she turns up as XXY or XYY something else.

    1. Re:Probably not that difficult by haystor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And having the genetic advantage of being male disqualifies those people from women's events. The question is how male does someone have to be in order to be disqualified?

      --
      t
  21. Distance Racers by arizwebfoot · · Score: 2, Informative

    I watched the women's 1500m race today and saw not one woman who wasn't flat chested or nearly so.

    I believe (from Mary Decker Slayne) that this is typical of women who train hard and as this young lass is just now 18 it would make sense that her hormonal changes were or are going to happen latter.

    --
    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
  22. "Unfair" Advantages by Cassander · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I really hate this idea that people with any kind of advantage aren't allowed to participate in athletic competitions. What's the point, then? How far should we take it? Next thing you know, people will be rejected for the "unfair advantage" of simply having spent their life training for the event. (This actually already happens in the olympics to some extent with their ban on "professional" athletes in events like basketball).

    Our "world records" are quite meaningless when the individuals with the greatest chance of actually setting one aren't allowed on the field. I also think it's inappropriate to ban athletes that have subjected themselves to chemical augmentation. I would suggest keeping separate "augmented" and "non-augmented" records, but ultimately it's impossible to determine where to draw the line between augmentation and things like tailored dietary supplements. But our records are a joke. We have no idea who the fastest human runner on the planet is, because he's not allowed to officially compete.

    Cases like this also illustrate the ridiculousness of gender segregation in athletics. Does anyone with a basic science education actually still believe that there are only two genders? Should we have yet another segregated league for XXY athletes like M. Semenya? If we are going to acknowledge the tendencies for different genders to have different athletic abilities, why not acknowledge the tendencies among different races, age groups, cultures, shoe sizes, etc? I know, let's just put every individual in their own little athletic division and they can set records against themselves all day long. Imagine the profits for Guinness!

    --
    Knowledge != Intelligence
    1. Re:"Unfair" Advantages by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The professional athletes in basketball thing is no longer the case (the USA has fielded teams composed of NBA players since 1992), and it wasn't necessarily the Olympics making the decision (looking it up, they apparently delegated the decision to FIBA).

      In any case, that was more about sportsmanship than it was about fairness.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:"Unfair" Advantages by wagnerrp · · Score: 2, Funny

      I also think it's inappropriate to ban athletes that have subjected themselves to chemical augmentation.

      On that note, we have the All Drug Olympics

  23. Hormones & Sex Change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you haven't looked in to the -how- of a sex change, you probably should. It's fascinating.

    Turns out its almost all about the action of estrogen and testosterone on the body. Here's how it works:

    Before birth: genetics (not the action of testosterone or estrogen) drive the construction of male or female genitalia along with testicles, prostate, uterus and ovaries. The bodies otherwise develop pretty much exactly the same.

    Before puberty: still nothing. Get a boy and a girl both five years old, cut their hair the same and dress them in the same clothes. You won't be able to tell which is which. Except for the genitalia, their bodies are virtually identical.

    Puberty: Boys and girls begin producing significant quantities of testosterone or estrogen. Under the action of testosterone, boys gain an extra several inches of height.

    Any time: under the action of testosterone, the voice deepens, facial hair appears, body hair becomes coarse and soft tissues redistribute and redevelop towards the abdomen in particular and towards what's considered to be the male figure in general. Under the action of estrogen, the mammaries develop, body hair becomes soft and soft tissue redistributes towards the thighs and the so-called "hourglass figure." And of course if she actually has a uterus then she begins to menstruate.

    Note that if you artificially introduce testosterone and estrogen before puberty, the changes start early, typically to the detriment of the girl or boy whose body isn't yet ready.

    The appearance of facial hair, the voice drop and the development of the mammaries are permanent features. Skeletal height is also permanent after puberty; you won't add inches by introducing testosterone in your 30s. Once developed these characteristics can only be surgically altered. The soft tissue distribution and body hair character alters under the effect of the two chemicals, so if you change the chemical balance those features will alter.

    Post menopause/ed: in the absence of significant amounts of testosterone and estrogen, body hair and figure tend towards a neutral configuration. That's why grandma and grandpa start to look alike.

    So, someone undergoing a sex change takes two daily pills: one to block the action of the undesired chemical (estrogen or testosterone) and one which provides the missing chemical. Do this for about a year and 90% of the change is accomplished... From a fully clothed perspective you generally can't tell the difference except that the woman is oddly tall or the man oddly short. In fact, given the expense and risk of the final SRS surgery (versus the sub-$50/month cost of the pills), more than a few trans simply stop there, satisfied with an outward appearance and lifestyle that matches their self-image.

    Now apparently the sports officials suspect something more unusual than just tampering with body chemistry is going on here. There's a very rare birth defect in which an individual who is genetically male incorrectly grows female genitalia. They lack ovaries and a uterus. The testicles are still connected but they're up in the abdomen and mostly non-functional. Generally the first time anyone even suspects the individual isn't genetically female is when they reach puberty and the testicles start putting out testosterone. The girl adds 6 inches in a growth spurt, spouts fuzz on her face, loses an octave in her voice and pads her bra. Very embarrassing.

  24. They create this problem for themselves. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2, Interesting

    *IF* they insist on dividing the competitions between males and females (and I admit that they usually have good reason for doing so), THEN they should strictly stick to their categories. XY for male, XX for female, with no significant genital "abnormalities" that may affect the outcome.

    At the same time, however, maybe they should consider an "other" category. Just so the minority is not left out. The "really special" Olympics, shall we say.

  25. Asks for directions? by Katchu · · Score: 5, Funny

    If Caster stops and asks for directions to the track arena, Caster is a female. If Caster continues to drive around, crossing bridges, running into cul-de-sacs, on and off the freeway, then Caster is a male.

    --
    Keep Doing Good.
  26. FUTURAMA Episode by smcevilly · · Score: 3, Funny

    Reminds me of a futurama episode. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bend_Her Bender a robot sex change is a complex and dangerous procedure. Replacing your testosteroil with Fembot lubricants can cause wild mood swings. And the effects may be irreversible. Well let's get started!

  27. Re:Nerds? by Targen · · Score: 2, Informative

    No self-respecting biologist would ever so much as suggest it's that simple, especially not in this sort of situation of ambiguity.

  28. Same happend in 1950 with Foekje Dillema by Reemi · · Score: 5, Interesting

    From wiki:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foekje_Dillema

    "In 1950 Dillema was expelled for life by the Dutch National Athletics Federations. A gynaecologist concluded that Dillema was an intersex."

    "In 2008, a controversial DNA-test on dead cells from her clothing found that she may have been a Genetic Mosaic, having both 46XX (female) and 46XY (male) chromosomes in approximately a 3 to 1 ratio. "

    1. Re:Same happend in 1950 with Foekje Dillema by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 4, Funny

      Her name was Dilemma?

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
  29. Welcome to numbers by holophrastic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is pretty rediculous. This is what happens when silly people organize silly things, then orchestrate silly rules to keep the silly things from becoming too silly, then those silly rules forget the initial point.

    The reason men and women don't compete together is because "there will be a disparity between men and women". So they have been seperated. Now someone's saying that this person isn't slow enough to fall into the women's category. Well good news, your whole "split them up by speed" still works.

    There are many "marathons" these days. Just general fitness or charity "start here, move yourself across/around the city, end there". Often, you can walk, jog, or run. Obviously the ones walking don't beat the ones running. No one expects them to -- they are simply slower. But still all three "speeds" compete in the event.

    What's even more rediculous is that the entire concept of the split is purely for the observer. The woman still scored a 6, and the man still scored a 5. It really doesn't matter how the other women and men scored. That women is better than that man. Why is this a problem.

    Throw them all into the same pool. Let the faster ones finish first, and let the slower ones finish last. When all ten women are slower than all ten men, every observer watching from the stands or on TV will say that the best women came "first in her class" -- just like in auto-racing with multiple classes of cars. Hell, put stock cars, formula-1 cars, bicycles, men, women, teenagers, toddlers, infants, and embryos on the same track. I'll expect the formula-1 cars to be faster tha the embryos, it's ok, I can split them up into classes all on my own -- from the results.

    It's like I always say to servers in a restaurant who ask my party if we want seperate bills: "thanks, but I can divide a $20 lunch all by myself".

    So quit the grouping for no reason -- it's not like they're competing with each-other directly, it's only their scores that compete. When there's a large gap between number 6 and number 7 in the standings, I'll put my group seperation there. And when there isn't, I won't.

  30. WTF? Sour grapes by Ritz_Just_Ritz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For fook sake...if someone is born with a vagina and they haven't taken drugs or gotten surgery to get there, they are a woman.

    To try to weed someone out of the athletic process because God (or whatever you believe in) has given them "a little extra" is absurd.

    Are we going to treat the Olympics like a dog show and start delving into genetics and "quality of their coat" and all the other BS nitpicks that people use to judge dogs in order to allow people to compete in sports? Absent an obvious attempt at cheating, I find this whole line of "testing" to be repulsive.

  31. Not so damn easy by BlueParrot · · Score: 3, Informative

    I suspect there will be a bunch of posts suggesting a simple genetic test will determine somebody's gender, but these tests were abandoned precisely because there are numerous cases where they fail. To mention a few examples:

    Complete Androgen Insensitivity:
    There's a number of people with XY chromosome genotype for which teh cells don't respond to testosterone. These individuals develop as women, and because they don't even respond to the very slight amount of testosterone women have they can actually be more feminine in physical terms than XX women. Many don't even know about their condition especially sicne the sign that usually reveals it ( lack of menstruation ) is easily mistaken as being caused by the exercise many athletes undergo.

    Chromosome variations:
    Not all peopel are XY or XX in chromosomes. There's Klinefelter ( XXY ) , Mosaics ( where some cells have one chromosome setup and some another ), and chimeras ( where different cells not only had different chromosome setups but the entire genotype can vary from cell to cell ).

    Hormonal Variation:
    Genetics is only part of what determines your sex. Even if you have XY chromosomes that only really affects the pre-puberty development of your genitals. The other sex differences ( secondary sex characteristics ) are down to hormonal influences. This is why transsexuals that go on hormone replacement therapy and have their gonads removed through sex reassignment surgery develop characteristics similar to tehri desired sex ( breast development in Male-to-female transsexuals, facial hair and muscle growth in Female-to-male transsexuals etc... ). This of course brings me to the next point...

    Transsexualism:
    Just like people can develop ambiguous genitals or chromosomes, some people develop a psychological gender similar to the opposite biological sex. It's not known exactly why this occurs, but it is currently believed to be neurological in origin ( i.e you could have people with a male brain in a female body or the other way around ). Often these individuals will undergo hormone replacement therapy in order to make their bodies more congruent with their psychological gender ( the only known effective treatment, attempting to resolve the situation with psychotherapy typically fails and has frequently resulted in suicides ). Male to female transsexuals tend to lose upper body strength while on hormones, female to male ones gain it. Thus classifying these individuals on the basis of genetics rather than their hormonal status would stick people with male muscle development among female competitors and vice versa.

    Essentially your performance in sports is more closely linked to hormonal factors ( and how your body respond to them ) than genetics, and thus a karyotype test is a rally poor way to classify competitors. Believe it or not but you get people with XX chromosomes that have more testosterone than the average man, and conversely XY individuals with female Oestrogen and progesterone levels. What is more is that in some cases the individual in question is not even aware of their genotype and it has happened before that female athletes have been shocked to find out they have Y chromosomes.

  32. The definition issue by Antony-Kyre · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Shouldn't these track and field events be a place where we humans can come together and show how far we're able to push our natural limitations without body modification?

    Without body modification, I mean without introducing drugs or mechanical advantages into our bodies. To show how far we can go "naturally".

    Rules are rules, and the sport has their own governing authority deciding what is and isn't okay.

    1. Logically, if she had a sex change, this would be a modification to her body. How is this any different from doping?

    2. Logically, if she was born that way, without any drug inducements, the question is, is she considered male or female?

    As someone pointed out, males tend to be thought of producing sperm, and females producing ova. But, where does that leave those who don't fit that definition?

    Look at one's chromosomes, and whether one's body is producing the hormones that tend to make one male or female. Is she an underdeveloped male, or is she an underveloped female? This may be an oversimplification, but don't males have more testosterone that estrogen, and females more estrogen than testosterone?

    All in all, it comes down to how the governing authority of the sport defines it.

  33. Pretty simple test by atli_04 · · Score: 4, Funny
    What does her car look like after backing in to a parking slot?

    Does she go to the bathroom alone or with two friends?

    How much time does she spend in the shoe store?

    Does the battery of her mobile phone last more than a day?

  34. Re:Raising the question of the role of sex in spor by myowntrueself · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ok for crying out loud...

    why do we still have rules that tell sports teams that they have to be all male or all female?

    I mean, for some sports I can understand that the team might want all male, rugby or gridiron come to mind.

    But cricket? Baseball? pffft.

    It should be up to the coach who they field, man woman or whatever. At the end of the day it should be their call and on their heads does it fall if the team loses because of it.

    Its as bad as paying a woman less than a man for doing the same job.

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  35. This is mostly stupid by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Gender is largely determined by our genes. But there are a number of articles on the web which demonstrate that hormones present in the womb can alter the initial determination of gender. Short of outright hermaphroditism, a female may have a lot of masculine characteristics, and a male can have a lot of feminine characteristics. Actually, it didn't require a lot of research to figure this out - people everywhere exhibit varying degrees of both masculine and feminine characteristics.

    "Prove you're a girl"??? WTF??? PROVE IT??? Give us all a break. Are we going to start demanding DNA and ultrasound analysis of every little leaguer? The kid either grows up thinking that he's a he, or that she's a she. That's good enough for almost anything. And, it should be good enough for the olympics. One shouldn't have to submit to what amounts to sexual molestation. Maybe a blood test. But, the blood test will be little more conclusive than looking at a person. He/she has hormone levels that are outside the norm? Big fucking deal.

    This world is getting to damned demanding. No one has a right to demand that I prove my sexuality - NO ONE. Not even if I'm competing on the world stage. This young lady has been researched to death. Her Mama and her Daddy vouch for her, and her birth certificate says "Female".

    Drop it, everyone.

    The only people who will ever have a legitimate interest in her genitalia are those who find her attractive enough to want to share her bed. And, those people will keep those details private unless they are total jerks.

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  36. No clear definition... by Tekoneiric · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The thing is that there isn't a clear line between female and male. Being Female or male isn't an absolute thing, it's extreme opposite ends of human sexuality with subtle variations in between. Many people don't realize but there are many people that are in between but it's generally hushed up by the doctors, their family and society in general. Not only are there physical ambiguities of the genitalia and body but also various hormone and neurological variations, all caused by chromosomal, genetic and developmental conditions that would put someone in between the gender extremes. Being physically intersexed, transsexual, bisexual, lesbian, gay, dynamically gendered (changing gender expression with moods), transgendered, a butch straight woman, a feminine straight man, etc are really just part of being in between the gender extremes.

    Just like boxing weight divisions break up by weight, I think a better choice is to break up the people based on size, performance and endurance tests. Have high performers compete in one category, mid-range and low range in others. I've seen women that could beat most men in a physical competition, men that wouldn't have a chance when physically competing with other men and many women. If you say one person had a genetic advantage over others why not have them compete with people at their same level of performance. Hell, why not take it a step farther. If people want to use safe forms of performance enhancing drugs, let them as long as they do it against people with their same level of performance. The drug companies could sponsor them.

    --
    *It's not what you can do for the Dark Side but what the Dark Side can do for you!*
  37. Re:Gender is identity. by tuxedobob · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If I believe I am a turtle, does that make me a turtle?

  38. Re:RIP FloJo by mouseblue · · Score: 4, Informative

    I lost all interest in "world class" athletes when FloJo died of a heart attack due to steroid abuse at a young age.

    Are you sure it was a heart attack? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Griffith-Joyner#Death

  39. Surest way to tell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Just tell her the outfit makes her look fat. If she shrugs, dude. If she bites your head off she's a woman. You could also try blindfolding her and wave a credit card under her nose. You're risking a nasty bite or worse yet a maxed out credit card but it is a way to confirm gender.

  40. Genetic Advantage? by aceofspades1217 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't most athletes who are at the Olympic level have some sort of athletic advantage. Obviously it's about determination and perseverance in training but its also about have really good genes. An average joe/jane will never ever be able to go to the Olympics no matter how hard they train.

  41. It's not a choice for us "trannies" either by Myria · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even more important: unlike trannies (no offense intended to any TG folk reading this), we intersexed people do not choose to be in the situation we are in.

    I have persistent thoughts of hoping I die because I feel very strongly that I need to be a woman. I shy away from mirrors in self-disgust. I have to avoid seeing women in general or I will start to get jealous of them. I hate my life.

    Why would i choose this?

    --
    "Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
  42. Should Women Compete Separately At All? by adrenaline_junky · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To answer the question of whether or not she should be allowed to compete as a female if she is not 100% female, one must first consider the question of whether women should be competing in a separate class at all.

    Let's avoid the underlying moral and philosophical issues and just stick with the practical reason for setting things up so women compete separately: approximately 50% of the population is female, so it is a political necessity. You can argue all sorts of other reasons, but when it really comes down to it, that is the crux of it.

    And if you really think about it, we don't actually have women competing against women in one group and men competing against men in another group. What we REALLY have is women competing against women in one group, and EVERYONE ELSE competing in another group. Men are not set up as a protected class, it is only women who are set up as a protected class. If a sufficiently gifted female runner wanted to compete against men, I very much suspect that she'd be allowed to do so.

    Once you realize the reality that female sports are basically a protected class based on a political reality, the answer to the other question becomes pretty simple: anyone who is not 100% female is not part of the "protected class" and should therefore compete in the "everyone else" category.

    Is it fair? Maybe not. But how is having women compete separately "fair" in the first place? It is just for political expediency, and personally I don't see anything wrong with it if it keeps 50% of the population happier and more fulfilled than they otherwise would be without causing any undue hardship on a significant part of the population.

  43. First define Female... by Genda · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As a number of folks here have already made it abundantly clear that sex is bugger-all hard to define. There's genetic sex (of which there are nearly a dozen), there's congenital development (we all start out female and then it's pretty much a crap shoot), there're even a fair number of folks without any secondary sexual characteristics at all.

    Even if the young lady does or does not have perfectly normal genes, there are dozens of both natural and artificial processes that could give her an unfair advantage. The cost of eliminating all possible ways of cheating (including the unintentional cheating of atypical sexual development) would be prohibitive, and in of itself a form of unfair pandering to vested interests and religious bigots. If you think about it, the extraordinary athlete is often gifted with unusual physical traits (several of the best swimmers had unusual knee joints allowing them to hyper-extend at the knee and get a larger swing in their kicks, and a basketball player under 6 feet is for all intents unheard of.)

    I would simply leave it at, if the person lives as their declared sex, functions socially as that sex, and isn't engaging in the illegal use of performance enhancing drugs... get over it.

  44. Shunned traditional female activities & clothi by antdah · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...previously preferred playing physical games with boys, and shunned traditional female activities and clothing...

    If my wife has pants, does that make her a man?
    And furthermore, does that make me a homosexual?

    If so, does it work the other way around as well?
    Would a man dressed in womens' clothing qualify as a woman?
    Would that in turn make gay couples were one part dress in womens' clothing heterosexual?

    Sigh, if only Douglas Adams were still around to sort out the logic behind all this...

  45. Re:Take away the money by Plunky · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, we need have a Male, Female and lastly a anything goes category. If people want to push themselves to death then so be. If for entertainment and scientific purpose then even better!

    There is a problem with this. Back when East Germany took young children to athletics camps and raised them on cocktails of steroids so they would grow up better it was wrong, and in the modern world when "some other regime" who cares more for their country winning than the effects on the athletes does the same thing with genetic selection or genetic engineering it will still be wrong

    Do you suppose that already there is not some party official who has seen Usain Bolts leg measurements and thought to check the leg measurements of all the young children in order to select future winners for special training? What about when that official sees that yes indeed, longer legs means faster sprinters and orders tests done to find an undetectable method of increasing leg lengths while the child is growing? Sure, some will grow too much and live a life of misery (or just get put in the meat grinder with the other failures) but the ones who come out perfect will be winners and nobody will ever know.

    The problem is that it is not "people" that want to push themselves to death, it is "people" who want to push others to their deaths and that is not something I want to sponsor. How do we protect against it when we clearly can't detect the causes? The only way is to have a range of norms and only allow those inside that range to compete.

    Unfortunatley for her, it seems that Caster does in fact fall outside of the range of normal (just look at the pictures, she is not normal even when compared to other female runners), and for me the question is not whether we allow her to compete or not but what will happen if we do? I assert that that party official will be trawling orphanages immediately looking for other genetic deformities that can be exploited similarly. Won't somebody please think of the children?

  46. Re:Take away the money by Moryath · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Olympic cheating is a sport of its own.

    The Russians and East Germans sent more bearded "ladies" through the system than I care to count.

    Greek weightlifters managed to get to Beijing despite 11 of their 14-man team being caught on steroids.

    The Chinese out-and-out lied and presented forged documents to the Olympic committee and IFG about the age of their gymnast girls and got away with it scot-free. North Korea wasn't so lucky since their star girl was still losing her baby teeth at the time.

    Marion Jones.

    And on and on... try a basic google search on Olympic Cheating.

    It used to be that people went to the Olympics as true amateurs to represent their countries and sports. Now? Let's face it, the Olympics have outlived their usefulness. Countries themselves compete, not just athletes. Professional athletes play in half the sports. And the two-year schedule has robbed the games of their scarcity, so much so that 90% of people don't even notice they are happening.

    The "Olympics" have become a joke, nothing more.

  47. Re:irrelevant by CTachyon · · Score: 2, Informative

    The SRY gene is responsible for only a small proportion of direct masculinization: it causes the gonads to develop as testicles, it causes production of anti-Müllerian hormone, it causes production of androgens (i.e. testosterone), and it causes some tiny changes in the brain. All the remaining primary and secondary characteristics are the result of either AMH or testosterone.

    Supposing a 46-XY subject with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome), note that AMH is still effective at de-feminizing the internal genitalia by triggering the reabsorption of the Müllerian ducts: no fallopian tubes, uterus, cervix, or upper vagina. However, because the androgen signal cannot be received, Wolffian ducts do not form: no efferent ducts, epididymis, vas deferens, or seminal vesicle. Also, the brain is not fully masculinized, as the bulk of brain masculinization is androgen-induced, not SRY-induced.

    The final CAIS result is external female genitalia, a shallow vagina, active testes producing male gametes, male-normal androgen levels, and no internal genitalia (male or female) beyond the testes and vagina. The testes may remain undescended, or may descend into the labia majora (homologous to the scrotum) where they are easily palpable. Gender identity is most frequently female, due to largely absent masculinization of the brain. Secondary sexual characteristics are frequently hyper-feminine: in contrast to a CAIS individual, a typical woman express some androgen-induced characteristics (albeit vastly reduced from the same in a typical man). In particular, CAIS individuals frequently have little to no body/pubic hair, and highly feminine facial bone structure. For this reason, there is a disproportionate positive correlation between CAIS and supermodels.

    PAIS (Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) is much less sharply defined, as it runs the gamut from nearly-CAIS-woman to man-with-micropenis, including everything between the two (depending on how badly impaired the androgen receptors are).

    Note that the athlete in the article clearly does not have androgen insensitivity, either complete or partial, so this line of discussion is irrelevant to that topic. My best guess (as a well-educated layperson) is 46-XX, absence of SRY, with abnormally high testosterone production. The facial bone structure suggests high androgen exposure during puberty, which for reasons of exposure consistency would tend to rule out steroids or an androgenic endocrine tumor, and the female gender identity and (presumed) presence of external female genitalia rules out fetal androgen exposure from testicular tissue (e.g. chimeric absorption of a 46-XY twin brother). Perhaps some genetic disruption of the regulatory regions involved in testosterone production (more likely), or an abnormally strong response to female-typical androgen levels (less likely). My conclusion: in essence, an unusually butch woman.

    --
    Range Voting: preference intensity matters