Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Attacks Linux With Retail-Training Talking Points
DesiVideoGamer writes "Over at Overclock.net, a user has posted screen-shots from Microsoft's 'ExpertZone' training course entitled 'Linux vs. Windows 7.' This course is available to BestBuy employees and will make them eligible for a $10 copy of Windows 7 upon completion." The screenshots linked show at least some creative interpretations of the state of Linux vs. Windows on a wide range of things, from media playback and video conferencing to ease of updates to (of all things) keeping your PCs "safer." Most of the claims, though, aren't concrete enough to be perfectly refuted. Writes DesiVideoGamer, "I think I now know why, when I enter BestBuy, the employees say the odd lies that they do."
I can get a free copy of windows 7 and I don't have to take any bullshit propaganda course.
It's completely unethical for bestbuy to go along with microsoft on pushing this course onto their employees. Though I can't say I'm surprised.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
Sales and Marketing people have always been people incapable of coherent thought or doing honest work. They'll do whatever they can to get more money. The only thing worse than them are Executives.
But that's just how the world works, there's no use in lamenting this. It's certainly interesting to see this, but there's no need to act like this was some big surprise. Every company acts like this. A society composed of only honest people doing honest work probably wouldn't work - nobody has tried yet, though.
The way to refute an inconcrete reply is with an answer that is equally inconcrete. For example, in one of the slides, they say "Windows is safer than Linux." The quickest way to refute it is to laugh. You don't even need to answer. If they try to hit on an emotional level, hit back on an emotional level. Once they come back with a more concrete assertion, you can begin refuting it on a more concrete level.
"Windows is safer because it has parental controls." Ooh, check out that argument, a clear attempt to change the subject. A typical geek will start by trying to think of any Linux software that can handle parental controls, and if there isn't one, start thinking of ways to write scripts and set permissions that will simulate it. Easier way to handle it is to smirk slightly, and say, "yeah, like that will keep hackers out." Roll your eyes. Don't let them get away with ridiculous arguments.
On the other hand, Microsoft is right in some of their points, Linux has fewer games available, Linux has less software available, Linux has fewer drivers available. Those are my biggest complaints with Linux too. In fact, they may be my only complaints.
Qxe4
Nice idea. But your "Software Freedom Day" is two weeks away, and you don't even have a proper website? That is why Windows and Mac will always win over Linux, they both have some concept of marketing. Linux struggles with marketing. Not that marketing has anything to do with the quality of software. But marketing has everything to do with people knowing about it.
I liked this one:
Linux is safer than windows
The Real Facts:
Are they talking about Linux or Windows? I thought it was quite clever that they could be referring to either, while implying that linux is the inferior one.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
I noticed several mild comments in this thread hit with -1, Troll. I think the MS astroturfers have mod points. The joke is on them; if they use up their points now, there will be nothing left later when the really nasty anti-MS stuff comes out.
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
The fact that this course is offered to BestBuy employees - and apparently only BestBuy employees - says something about consumer electronics retail in 2009 in the US. When I worked at CompUSA (pre - 2000) I frequently went to vendor-sponsored "classes" where they would give us food, beer, free hardware/software, etc, for listening to their pitch. We generally went there and found that there were also BestBuy, CircuitCity, and even OfficeMax or OfficeDepot employees, depending on what was being sold. Now of those five retailers (including CompUSA) only BestBuy remains a significant factor in consumer elecrtonics sales.
I'm surprised that Microsoft apparently didn't even think highly enough of Microcenter to invite them. I guess they are still rather small fish (in terms of market presence) at the moment.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
they don't believe in their own product.
Why do I say that? Because you don't see BMW giving free training videos to car salesmen comparing their cars to say GM or Chrysler or Ford, do you? BMW lives or dies by the quality and reputation of their products; they don't need to "educate" salesmen about their products. This smells of a desperation move where Microsoft must believe their Windows 7 doesn't compare favorably with Linux on netbooks, so they have to try to convince the Best Buy personnel, who let's face it, don't know as much about hardware and software as they know about marketing products, to push the Windows 7 stuff onto customers.
There have been some studies of performance of Windows 7 beta vs. Linux on netbooks which either have not have been clear win for Windows 7 or worse, have shown Windows 7 in an unflattering light. As for citations, the web sites that I can recall are Phoronix.com, and OSNews.com.
I mean trying to "educate" Best Buy sales people and having Windows 7 "House Parties" sounds a little pathetic don't you think? Did Microsoft do something similar when XP came out or even Vista?
When is Windows not like Windows?
When Microsoft ships a new version.
When is Windows just like Windows?
When Microsoft ships a new version.
You all know that Windows 7 is not like any kind of Windows most people are running but as you should have seen if you RTFA, Microsoft's army of marketing droids still likes to tell people that it's Windows so you know it.
Besides this telling the world+dog that Microsoft is fighting Linux, look at the first mention of netbooks and Linux. The page title is about netbooks but the bullets are on PCs. They are being real careful to not allow the netbook to be labeled a special device or market segment and want it to be considered a limited function PC. The reason why is because if people think of the netbook as another device like say, an iPhone, they know that all the smoke and mirror tricks claiming having Windows is better goes out the windows. Peg the netbook as a little computer and people will think that having Windows on it is a good thing to do and if you put anything else on it, you'll have less functionality. The reality is, these resource constrained devices do more with Linux because Linux and OSS does better and can do more in these small devices. Think about it, you don't see Window XP, Vista, or Windows 7 on smartphones or MIDs devices.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
I'm tired of this attitude of "It's okay to lie because the other guy is lying too. In fact, I can lie louder than him". That is exactly what has our government so polarized and dysfunctional. We've gotten to the point of saying nothing is true, there is two sides to everything, and we need to hear both sides, no matter how untrue their arguments are. Telling the truth doesn't seem to count for anything anymore.
Some of these items Microsoft are just flat lies. Selling a netbook as a gaming machine. Saying Windows is easier to upgrade (I can upgrade ALL of my applications on Ubuntu with one click, for a price of $0.00). They are lies and we should call them out as lies. And if you see a Linux vendor lying, we'll call them out for their lies too. But saying all points of view are equally valid and it is okay to lie because the other side lies is morally and intellectually bankrupt.
At any rate, does anyone think Microsoft is giving Linux too much publicity? There's people out there that wouldn't dream of running linux, and when they're asking questions wouldn't it be easier to say "I don't know, never heard of it" then have some tech person jump all over them with a barrage of answers?
They tried that.
First they ignored Linux. Kept saying it wasn't a threat.
Then they ridiculed it.
Now they are fighting it.
You know what the next step is, right? (It's not PROFIT!, but it's not far either.)
Ignore this signature. By order.
And this is where I stop reading. Saying things to this effect just so you look like a martyr and get modded up is about as old as sliced bread.
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
Seriously if MS has to teach BestBuy employees sales pitches to keep people from LINUX you know LINUX has made an impact on the average joe. All this will do isput the name LINUX into more peoples minds. It'll make people ask questions like.. Whats up with LINUX if BestBuy is trying to show me how much better W7 is VS LINUX? If they are trying to tell me W7 is the best compared to LINUX then LINUX must be up there? Maybe its good enough for me to try it out?
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
Things don't work like that in Linux.
You don't insert a CD with webcam software. If webcam is already supported by the kernel, then you plug it in, and it works without any extra messing with stuff. The "if" is of course the problem, but if there's no driver in a recent distro then it's quite likely none exists at all. Fortunately webcam support is very good these days and I've never heard of a webcam that didn't work.
Regading "which version", it doesn't matter. Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu all support the same hardware. Other distributions of a similar date are unlikely to show any significant differences. You can often see Linux logos on network cards, because the driver is in the kernel, so all distributions get it from there.
Linux does things differently here, and frankly I prefer the Linux way.
The Windows way is: The manufacturer provides their own software and driver, possibly for hardware that's not really their own. Manufacturers like Logitech often sell cameras not only by their technical specs but by the software included with them. For instance, the more expensive Logitech cameras have software that will let you stick a beard on your webcam image in Mr. Potato head style, even though the ability has nothing to do with the webcam itself.
The Linux way is: The chip manufacturer's (hopefully) provides specs. Kernel supports the chip, supporting at once both the Logitech and the Creative webcams using the same hardware, possibly covering 10 different webcams with the same driver. This means that the users of all of those get unified, and if Logitech contributes a bug fix, Creative users get it too. The kernel provides the same interface for all webcams, so that so long it works, the software doesn't care what you have. If you want to stick a beard on yourself, you look for a program that will do that on Linux (haven't looked), which will work both with the most expensive and the cheapest USB1 webcam you can find.
And that's what I like about the Linux way: The webcam is just hardware and works and such. It doesn't come with some gaudy and buggy piece of software to change settings. Every webcam works with the system in exactly the same way.
So please FLOSSies, quit with the "it a M$ conspiracy!" crap
Even if what you said is correct, if MS are being a bunch of underhanded arseholes then I think Linux/Free software people have the right to blast them for it. If Microsoft have concocted a scheme to feed lies to people trying to make an informed purchasing decision (and some of the things they say are patent lies) then it doesn't matter if Linux has no stable ABI or even if Linux kills your pet dog, MS are in the wrong and people can reasonably call them out on it if they want to.
I have been a linux user for many years, various distros; I recently decided to get myself an up to date Ubuntu capable laptop, that would run wifi, etc without 4 hours of installing ndiswrapper or other weird stuff from odd sites.
Clearly I can order a box from a specialized builder, but I was curious to see of that could be bypassed, apparently not.
So far I estimate I have spent at least 4 hours trying to identify a laptop I can simply walk in and buy from Sams Club, or any major store, and expect it to run Ubuntu and have the devices work.
This is not something Jo Internet should even attempt, or be expected to figure out.
Hardware compatibility lists are basically obscure and useless, and often outdated. The detail is way inadequate.
I like many HP laptop boxes (price quality choice mix is good), but there are so many variants and so little detail on the installed chipsets, no sane person should try to figure it out. Both dell and HP seem to have recently (quietly) walked away from providing ready to go linux on their sites.
So what does the linux community expect Jo Internet to do, randomly buy a laptop and hope it works, until an update breaks it silently?
My Girlfriend (yes, really) recently had a working laptop (HP Pavilion) with working wifi connection (probably the most critical item for most laptop users) which was silently broken by an Ubuntu upgrade. It took me several hours to find the necessary changes, download stuff and fix the driver, security is unavailable. Not acceptable and not someting Jo Internet will do.
I agree with the posters comment that the purist view of open source is impractical in the real business workld of patents and hostile trolls.
If there there was a usable and stable binary interface, and the distro's included the install of closed source drivers, then rational self interest will take over and the hardware manufacturers will release drivers, to enable increased sales of their gadgets.
Clearly there will be anticompetitive actions, which will probably be quietly ignored by our open source hostile and arguably incompetent/corrupt DOJ, (the ludicrous never ending failure of the war on drugs shows the DOJ has no idea what supply and demand even means). Supply and demand always wins in the end. Anticompetitive actions don't really matter in the long run, unless we choose to think they do.
The problem is not linux, or any distro, or the boot, or the desktop, or Gnome vs KD; The problem is that the wise and ancient Self Appointed Benevolent Dictators For Life have slowly become Self Appointed Barriers to Success.
This is a common problem in any form of endeavour, when successful it can grow far beyond the capabilites of the original inventors;
Dear SABDFL's, you have won, the future is going to be open, so take the bows, polish up your egos, do the lecture circuit, write books, FOSS is here to stay, many thanks; now, please let the rest of us do business in the real world.
Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying we give up the ideals of open source software and the real freedoms and security it provides.
Is enabling closed (redistributable) device drivers a slippery slope?
Not really, it is a necessary evil, so lets not get paranoid, just allow it carefully in the legal licensing and Distros.
I agree with parent post that we need to provide a hybrid? closed source + open source license structure and a usable Binary Interface, so hardware manufactureres have the business incentives to provide working
We all want Jo Internet to walk into a store, look for the fat penguin on the box and know the gadget will just work.
Eventually, there will have been so many boxes sold because of the fat penguin, that business folks may be willing to open source drivers, if that really even matters, (it does not matter to Jo Internet); but until that bright shiny morning arrives, we should simply make it a no brainer for the device driver manufacturers to release working drivers, because it increases their profits.
There is no god; get over it already! Never exchange a walk on part in the war, for a lead role in a cage.
This is a good sign. The fact that Microsoft feels it necessary to attack Linux at the retail level shows that Linux is becoming more and more of a factor in the computing mainstream as well. Thanks, Microsoft, for supporting Linux.
Sorry, I disagree. Webcam drivers and the like DO NOT BELONG IN THE KERNEL. The V4L (or V4L2) ABI should be stable enough where vendors can provide userland drivers and the kernel people shouldn't be worrying about it AT ALL. Specific device drivers have no business being in kernel space. The various ABIs should be stable over the major version numbers: 2.4.x, 2.6.x, etc. The current way is dangerous, sloppy and one of the major reasons Linux has issues like this with off-the-shelf hardware.
I mean, they did that for printers, why not every other piece of hardware?
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
I see. "Stable ABI" is the new "Gimp doesn't support CMYK".
Both false, of course -- CMYK is supported by each and every color printer driver, plus color separation plugins, Linux ABI is stable enough that Quake 3 runs on any current x86 Linux box, neither has even a slightest degree of relevance for users.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
The reason I added that is I have found if I don't instead of having a discussion on the subject i get 30 posts that are a variation of "M$ suxorz! U is teh newbz! CLI is leet and roxorz! Go back to Windblowz LOL!" and I have found putting that line at the first seems to take some of the fun out of it therefor the twitters don't spambomb the post. Sorry if it offends you, but if there weren't so many zealots of ALL camps here, and instead of mod wars we could all discuss things rationally, then it wouldn't be necessary.
And I still stand by my post. Does anyone honestly think you could walk up to the geek squad guy or the guy working the counter at Wally World and say "which items here work with Linux?" and they would have a fricking clue? That is why I won't sell Linux, even though I think for my customers that simply surf and watch vids it would be a better solution. Because there is simply no way for me to tell them which items are safe to buy for their PC, and which are not. With a stable ABI I would have Linux boxes on my shelves RIGHT NOW, as I could simply tell them "you see this cute fat penguin? Yeah, isn't he cute? His name is Tux the Linux penguin. Just look for Tux on the side of the box and you are good to go".
And this has NOTHING to do with releases. Because if they only released every three years but insisted on making everything from the kernel on up a moving target, like it is now, then it simply would be just as worthless than if they released every week. With a stable ABI it wouldn't matter what you did to the kernel, because I wouldn't have to worry about that, only the ABI. More improtantly with Windows I can hand it to them knowing that every single item sold in Best Buy, Staples, and Walmart all "just work". No research, no "device foo is broken by update Y", no crawling forums before every purchase, it all just works. There is NO REASON why in 2009 Linux couldn't be the same, with a stable ABI I am willing to bet my last dollar that you would see little Tux logos spring up on everything.
But ultimately the choice is up to the community. Only by throwing a shitfit and demanding a stable ABI will this ever change. if it stays the same as it is now I predict we will be talking in 2015 about "next year is the year of the Linux desktop" while Linux sits at 2% and Win8 is on everything. And guys like me STILL won't be able to sell Linux machines, because even buying the simplest piece of hardware at retail will be a giant minefield for the customer. I believe Linux has what it takes to be a real force in the desktop market, and spur real change and innovation. But this will happen ONLY if guys like me and retailers like Best Buy can tell their customers "look for the Tux penguin on the box" instead of "I have no clue whether that will work or not. You will have to go to forum X and research it". In 2009 this is simply inexcusable, and will continue to keep Linux in the basement adoption wise.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Fortunately webcam support is very good these days and I've never heard of a webcam that didn't work.
HAHAHAHAHA!
I spent ~3 months trying to get my philips webcam working in Ubuntu 9.04. By the end of it, I had only managed to get it to show an image that looks like the output of an infrared camera, and a blank screen in skype. In the end I had to go back to my older webcam, which still requires me to run skype with a script to preload some v4l component.
The webcam support is getting better, but it sure as hell needs work.
Lets not even start on the hell i went through this last week getting my tv tuner working, which was "supported" according to linuxtv.org.
I still prefer linux, but every time i go through something like this, a part of me wishes I had gone for dual-booting with windows.
These are the kinds of things I think people will want to do more and more with their computers in the future, and if the linux setup experience is not easy, people won't want to deal with it and retailers sure as hell won't want to deal with all the complaints and tech support.
You're so fast to argue and attack that you've forgotten that I agree with you. I suspect most of Slashdot would as well, despite what you may assume.
While I agree with your discussions of the stable API, I disagree that it is the cause of Linux' downfall. Linux will not win any time soon, not because of any technical reason, but because Microsoft controls the entire computer market. Stable API will not change that fact. Device support, which is very good at this point, will also not change this fact. Maybe device creators would care enough to slap a Tux logo on their device if most of the computer consumers weren't ignorant and couldn't tell you the difference between a stick of RAM and a pop tart. Even if Linux had a stable API that was easy to code for, I doubt may device creators would care, because their users are all in Windows, completely oblivious to anything else that might be occurring around them.
And you're wrong - whining about "I"LL GET MODDED DOWN TROLL" is just a lame, idiotic line that only makes you look like you're sticking your neck out to piss someone off, which, of course, is the very definition of a troll. I'm sick and tired of this new fad that Slashdot seems is goes through, which is mostly a mentality that everyone here thinks Linux is perfect. No, they don't. Nobody does. The fanboys might argue that there is some validity and play the devil's advocate, but in the long run you're basically alienating yourself from everyone that might potentially agree with you, which is everybody. What we need is some quiet, calm discussion of Linux' flaws that doesn't involve flaming or pre-emptive flaming, neither of which is going to happen because everyone who doesn't use Linux on Slashdot seems to think all Linux users consider their operating system perfect. Yelling "FIRE" before there's a fire is just stupid.
While we're on that topic, Linux' flaws:
-Audio is a mess, and Pusleaudio is not the band-aid that will cure it; at least not in the state it is in. It doesn't help that distros can't package it correctly, but there are too many switches and levels for even the most simple of tasks.
-Package management is wonderful, but we need to standardize the damn things. I vote for Apt-RPM. Choice is good and wonderful, but not when it is considering package formats. Just pick one so we can finally just post a "Linux" binary on the web that works with every package management system seamlessly. How kick ass would that be?
These two can be fixed now, and if anyone's awake at Red Hat, Debian or Canonical I suspect they will be. After that, Linux must simply wait and bide its time, adding features and fixing bugs until a government agency wakes up and slaps Microsoft for their ridiculous monopolistic behaviour they've gotten away with for decades. The missing link is the OEM's (who have all been bullied or paid into submission), because the average user won't install Linux on their machine anyway - no matter how easy it is, most users don't understand the concept because they've been taught that computers = Windows. Until the point where ignorance is no longer accepted, nobody can crack the barrier, and Linux will not win.
It reminds me of the RIAA and indie labels. You may have a better product, for a better price, available under less restrictions and in more convenient formats, and Joe Average *still* buys the other guy's product simply because he assumes that more money spent on marketing means a more polished end-product, and when he finds out how shitty the product they bought is, they only think "gee, if this is so bad, the other product must really suck!".
Like many indie labels, however, while Linux would benefit from the extra market-share of the drooling masses, they're doing just fine so far and so there's little practical reasons for us, people who know better, to worry about it.
Best of luck to the guys participating in Software Freedom Day. I appreciate the work you guys are making, but personally I'd rather laugh at the incompetent masses rather than educate them. I'm an elitist, lazy bastard like that.
No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
Ignoring them doesn't work because they feed off of each other, leading to some enormous threads with very little content beyond "{insert object of affection here} FTW!" What seems to put a stop to them is that rare beast, the highly gratifying post that looks at both sides of the free/proprietary issue objectively, examining the true reasons for the current state of software, i.e. all software sucks, usually an edifying read that immediately rings true to all but the most fanatical and blinkered supporter of one camp or the other.
For example, a true Linux user is never going to be happy with the system, in the same way an objective Windows user is going to find flaws and niggles each and every day and can probably be found reading others' experiences and nodding sagely at the sorry state of whatever bit of software has caused regressions. Being able to discuss these flaws logically without exaggeration and hyperbole marks the intelligent and encourages continuous improvement. I know my own system of choice has huge flaws at present - Java is a complete mess and the new lockd seems to be incompatible with the last iteration causing headaches between 7 and 8 in NFS environments, two major issues off the top of my head from my own testing and there will be more.
What encourages the fanpersons is arguments between obviously sane, sensible and intelligent people who can be objective but have fallen into the trap of becoming defensive over a single issue, such as opening with an unnecessary dig at the zealots which only serves to stir them up. Perhaps the answer is to be a bit more selective in choosing enemies, don't poke those that you have already identified with a stick at every opportunity and be a little more tolerant of those who just may be capable of objective thought?
Oh, and who modded the parent flamebait? Can you honestly say that there are no people using Slashdot's comments just to fan the flames as the parent hints? Can you even honestly think for one moment that there isn't a solid core of Linux/Windows/OSX users for whom the operating system is more important than the facilities it provides and who will hear not a bad word against the object of their affections or who feel superior to those who disagree with their choices? Please, let's have a dose of reality here for a moment.
Resistance is futile. Reactance buggers it up.