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SANS Report Says Organizations Focusing On the Wrong Security Threats

yahoi writes "Companies around the world are leaving themselves wide open to Web- and client-side attacks, according to a new report released today by the SANS Institute that includes real attack data gathered from multiple sources. SANS found that most organizations are focusing their patching efforts and vulnerability scanning on the operating system, but they're missing the boat: 60 percent of the total number of attacks occur on Web applications, and many attacks are aimed at third-party applications such as Microsoft Office, and Adobe Flash and other tools. Exacerbating the problem, they're taking twice as long to patch Microsoft Office and other applications than to patch their operating systems."

98 comments

  1. Most type of exploit is 'other' by symbolset · · Score: 3, Funny

    Chart(jpg) shows 92% 'other'.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Unless I am reading that wrong, the 92% is the other blue item: MS08-067 (buffer overflow).
      Other is only 2%.

      Though they really should have used colors that contrasted better than light and dark blue.

    2. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I find it hard to trust the credibility of the report, after a statement like this:

      SANS' Ullrich says patching third-party applications isn't easy. "Third-party applications can be tough. There's no good system" for patching them, he says. The key is inventorying third-party Web applications, which the report shows are a major attack vector, Ullrich says.

      It's called apt. It's already widely deployed in Debian and Ubuntu, and has been for a long time. The problem is solved.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    3. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by Disgruntled+Goats · · Score: 1

      It's called apt. It's already widely deployed in Debian and Ubuntu, and has been for a long time. The problem is solved.

      Did you forget to read the top of the figure where it says "Microsoft OS" and not "Linux"?

    4. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Windows has apt? Cool. I never knew.

      Protip - we're talking about business computers. Business Computers == WindowsXP (to a first approximation).

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    5. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      ...for some odd reason I can't get APT to compile on Windows Server 2003 or 2008. Help? :)

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    6. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by Knuckles · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, and if they were honest and serious that's were they would have said, "third-party applications can be tough. There are very good systems for patching them, like Debian's APT, but sadly most vendors of proprietary software have made practically no progress in this area in two decades".

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    7. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Third-party applications can be tough. There's no good system" for patching them, he says.

      It's called apt. It's already widely deployed in Debian and Ubuntu, and has been for a long time. The problem is solved.

      In this case, a system needs to be compatible in order to be useful. It needs to be useful in order to be good. Apt is no good for what the SANS report is talking about, because it's not compatible with the systems SANS is talking about patching. If Apt was ported, and software vendors got on board, it could be exactly what's needed. But it's not there yet.

    8. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      It's called apt. It's already widely deployed in Debian and Ubuntu, and has been for a long time. The problem is solved.

      What proportion of third party vendors distribute their software using apt ?

    9. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by leromarinvit · · Score: 1

      Windows has apt? Cool. I never knew.

      Actually, it does. Unfortunately, the repository seems to be wildly out of date; e.g. Firefox is only at 2.0.0.11, OOo at 2.3.

      --
      Proud member of the Ferengi Socialist Party.
    10. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      It's ok to use apt and derivatives for control, even it if it's not perfect, and it isn't.

      The domain that's vulnerable is Windows. As shown apt isn't very useful there, as few vendors participate in a delivery structure that keeps things up to date.

      Altiris/Symantec do a respectable job-- when the patches are available, across multiple platforms. There are others.

      All of those, however, are dependent on the patches being available.

      All of that need is incumbent on the need to patch, meaning poor quality software from a vulnerabilities stand point. In other words, the apps, while delivering superficially good results, are poorly written, poorly tested, and poorly quality-verified/reviewed-- then too slowly patched, if at all. That's the core of the problem: crappy coders turning out crummy work.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    11. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by HangingChad · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Business Computers == WindowsXP

      I guess we're one of the approximations. ;) Our office is more Ubuntu than Windows and people, astonishing to the Windows faithful, don't have any trouble getting their work done.

      Almost any office could replace many, if not most, of their desktops with Ubuntu with very little difficulty. The level of effort increases to another level if you want to try replacing all of them.

      Imagine having APT for a large percentage of your desktops. A couple keystrokes to run a script and they're all up to date. Sweet.

      --
      That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    12. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      As with operating systems, it tends to be the commercial vendors who don't produce and distribute packages in the standard way, instead preferring to use their own nonstandard installer which doesn't integrate with the existing mechanisms for keeping things up to date.
      I would consider lack of integration with the standard update system to be a big black mark against something when evaluating it relative to possible other options.

      Incidentally, Nokia use apt on their maemo platform, which includes the new N900 phone too.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    13. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by Artifakt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The claim that there is no good system is just the sort of claim that gets quoted out of context, and when it happens, supposedly expert technical people will be the ones making the mistakes.
            Think of it like politics. Someone writes a story specifically about the Democratic party in Ohio. Five paragraphs in, they say "There are no particularly distinguished front runners for the upcoming election.". What happens when that gets quoted by itself - is there much chance at all that someone will put (for the 2012 Ohio governor's race) after the quote? It seems far more likely that someone will claim the original author said there were no distinguished candidates for the whole democratic party this time around, or misapply it to the presidential election, or maybe someone with different biases will apply it to both major parties nationwide.
            Authors, when they are trying to be fact-focused, fair, and rational, frequently go over their manuscripts looking for likely quotes that won't look right if quoted out of context, and insert internal context (In this case it would be something such as 'there's no good system in Windows for patching them'). It's often a mistake to rely on context from outside the immediate quote to keep things clear.
            Editors, often take these modifications back out for brevity, but I've known several professional editors who had to deal with the results (i.e. a libel suit over something that wasn't libelous in full context) and have started encouraging such additional context instead.
            So you're right - the problem hasn't been solved for Microsoft products. And the parent poster is right - the article is easy to misquote, and that hurts its overall creditability.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    14. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I also forgot to read all the disclaimers that tell me that no one is responsible for anything.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    15. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 2, Informative

      Did you forget to read the top of the figure where it says "Microsoft OS" and not "Linux"?

      No, I didn't forget to read it. It wasn't there. "Microsoft OS", "Windows", these were not mentioned in the article nor in the report. Things that were mentioned were things like Flash, Acrobat Reader and Microsoft Office. I get my updates to Flash and Acrobat through apt, so I think it's pretty relevant. My office suite is also updated via apt, although it wasn't made by Microsoft.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    16. Re:Most type of exploit is 'other' by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      Windows has apt? Cool. I never knew.

      Protip - we're talking about business computers. Business Computers == WindowsXP (to a first approximation).


      Pro tip - Business Computers = Tools that solve problems to make money

      I've been solving problems and making money using open source tools for years. If your tools don't work, then maybe people should be giving their money to me instead of you.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
  2. From the "No Duh" department... by spinkham · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wait, let me get this straight... Attackers are going after the things that aren't getting fixed as quickly? Who would have guessed!

    --
    Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
    1. Re:From the "No Duh" department... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Almost as amazing: That the report was written based on REAL data from MULTIPLE sources. It sure makes my "no data from a single source" security report shameful!

  3. We are just lucky I guess by 2names · · Score: 2, Informative

    My place of employment is lucky to have our "patch management" guy. He is absolutely fanatical about keeping up-to-date on patches for OS and apps, anti-virus updates, and anti-malware updates. I make sure that I tell upper management about him every chance I get so he continues to be properly compensated. He would be difficult to replace. In fact, I doubt I would find another person with his level of dedication, which is kind of sad.

    --
    "I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
    1. Re:We are just lucky I guess by localman57 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, kudos to you (er, him!) for keeping everyone's computers up to date!

    2. Re:We are just lucky I guess by Inda · · Score: 2, Funny

      The cheque's in the post mate. Cheers.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    3. Re:We are just lucky I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      awwww... someone has a man crush.

    4. Re:We are just lucky I guess by 2names · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, no, nooooo. I just appreciate him for his - uh - skills in the patch managem...dammit. If any of you douchers says "bromance" I'm kicking your ass. Now I'm off to the Monster Truck rally.

      --
      "I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
    5. Re:We are just lucky I guess by blhack · · Score: 1

      That's awesome, man. Good on him for doing his job, and good on you for making sure that management knows it.

      I think that, all too often, people who don't work in tech don't understand how much work there can be in tech.

      --
      NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
    6. Re:We are just lucky I guess by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      I run a network of linux machines (debian/ubuntu/gentoo) and find it very easy to keep everything up to date, every midnight our mirror server pulls down the latest package lists for the 3 distros, every 3am every box pulls the latest package list from our mirror server (and we log any boxes that fail to do so), then at 8am every box is polled by nagios to see if it requires any updates and an email alert is sent... By the time i get to work at 9am, there may or may not be a list of systems and packages which need updating.

      99% of the packages we use are present in their respective distro repositories, for the very small handful which aren't, we maintain them locally on our mirror server.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    7. Re:We are just lucky I guess by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

      every box pulls the latest package list from our mirror server (and we log any boxes that fail to do so), then at 8am every box is polled by nagios to see if it requires any updates and an email alert is sent...

      That is nice and all, but gathering the latest updates is the easiest part. There are tools for every major OS to do that, often many different tools. The difficult part, and the reason many companies have difficulty keeping up with patch releases are the logistics involved with applying updates - the testing (you _will_ be bit eventually, this pays off), keeping them consistent, rebooting them, restarting apps, outage notifications, failover preparations, etc. There are always gotchas in a large environment. Systems without boot blocks/grub installed to both root mirrors halves and missing the *good* disk for years, SAN volumes long gone still in vfstab, dsk/rdsk colums mismatching, hardware that just wants to die, and so on. There is nothing special about Linux in that regard unless you're one of those people who thinks it's safe to disable kernel updates and never reboot after shredding dozens of in use shared libraries, frameworks, runtimes, etc. I'll just presume you're more sensible than that, maybe you're fortunate enough to work in an environment where you can turn things off without providing a detailed plan to two levels of upper management :\ I envy you.

    8. Re:We are just lucky I guess by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Umm... nothing against the guy, but I can literally replace him by a very small shell script:

      eix-sync && emerge -auDNtv world && revdep-rebuild && emerge -atv --depclean
      (Yes, there's a tool to run that in parallel on at least a couple dozen computers... from one system.)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    9. Re:We are just lucky I guess by Nyder · · Score: 1

      No, all you need to do is find someone who hates fixing compromised computers (or has OCD for updated software).

      God, I hate fixing peeps software problems, so I try to make sure everyone has updated software and crap on the computers i work on.

      rather spend 5 mins or so installing software then 5+ hours fixing the crap.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    10. Re:We are just lucky I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sexist of you to assume the OP is a male!

  4. OpenBSD vs Linux by chill · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I had this discussion -- and yes, it was civil -- on deadly.org a while ago. Pointing out that web servers were like the circus coming to town. Setting up Linux was like using strong wooden poles to hold the tent, and using OpenBSD was like using steel poles.

    Neither really mattered because people who wanted to cause trouble would simply be slitting the fabric (the apps) or cutting the ropes. Thus, a lot of the nit picky little stuff that OpenBSD fanboys focus on vs Linux doesn't really matter. The issue isn't Linux or OpenBSD or Windows, it is now mostly .ASP, .PHP and other homebrew web code where people didn't sanitize input, do bounds checking, etc.

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    1. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Sort of... but you have to remember - at least when PHP gets popped (is there really any other culprit these days?), the OS is still untouched (if you built the box right, anyway). When ASP code gets popped, you stand a good chance of losing the entire server to the penetration (though not a perfect chance, depending on setup).

      In your analogy, it's like the tent poles of the "windows" tent are made of cardboard tubes... they might hold up due to the imbalance of newly torn cloth, or they might not.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    2. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      when PHP gets popped (is there really any other culprit these days?), the OS is still untouched

      So what?

      Today, the PHP service that got popped was running on the... PHP server. Is the OS important when someone snarfs up your web app and all data it had access to?
      Are you keeping unnecessary sensitive data on your PHP server? I hope not, but sure.. MAYBE it would be protected if your OS was secure.

      In your analogy, it's like the tent poles of the "windows" tent are made of cardboard tubes... they might hold up due to the imbalance of newly torn cloth, or they might not.

      You're completely missing the point. If someone tears through your tent, its game over, circus down. Nobody gives a damn about tearing your poles down, they have better ones at home.

    3. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by javaman235 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's a really great post. It reminds me that any OS which grants their users freedom for their apps to do what they like also grants the freedom for some app running on them to do bad things, whether it effects the OS or not. It will always be like that.

      The only solutions I can think of are to 1) create programming languages that result in really secure code through lots of input restrains etc. 2) create a lot of transparency to see what's going on. And even those don't do enough: A language with too much checking will be slow (Java has a much better security name in this department than C for instance) and while seeing if my machine is sending mystery emails out to my friends would be good, what kind of transparency lets me "see" a buffer overflow caused by a Flash movie writing arbitrary code???

      --
      -The art of programming is the pursuit of absolute simplicity.
    4. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by Penguinisto · · Score: 2, Informative

      Is the OS important when someone snarfs up your web app and all data it had access to?

      Depends on how long you want to spend in doing recovery. If I have incremental copies (in addition to normal backup/DR actions) and a live copy of the DB transaction logs sitting on the local box outside of the chroot jail (and thus remain untouchable)? It is a lot easier and faster to disable the offending script (or apply the needed patch), copy over the last known good data, and be up and running - with a very short downtime.

      If the OS is untrusted, you get to rebuild the entire - which means you get to reach for disk backup or VM clone (if you're lucky) or tapes (if you're not), or you're basically screwed (if you're stupid).

      Corner cases naturally will change all of this, but that's the basic premise.

      /P

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    5. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by jafiwam · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The security model of PHP in Windows is still pretty bad.

      The default install of PHP can let a user put files in a web site that can compromise or infect the operating system.

      Plus, a lot of third party add-ons for PHP want you to add "read/execute" to CMD.exe and put it in the PATH to the PHP services to piggy back their apps into working. Which, is well, stupid.

      Maybe on Linux PHP is no harm to the OS, but on MS boxes that is not a safe assumption to make.

    6. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by greenbird · · Score: 2, Informative

      Today, the PHP service that got popped was running on the... PHP server. Is the OS important when someone snarfs up your web app and all data it had access to?

      Yes, it's very important. To extend your analogy a little, with Microsoft all the goodies are sitting on open tables inside the big tent so a tear in the big tent generally allows complete access to all the goodies. With linux there are locked covered cubicles inside the tent that you can keep the goodies in. If the goodies are kept in the cubicles, as they should be, it's much harder to get at them even after you tear through the outside tent. With OpenBSD there are steel cubicles for the goodies.

      --
      Who is John Galt?
    7. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by dkf · · Score: 1

      Maybe on Linux PHP is no harm to the OS, but on MS boxes that is not a safe assumption to make.

      PHP is a problem, but if you're properly paranoid you can avoid most of the problems. Removing from your production webserver all things like wget that can download a rootkit is a good start. You also don't want to have compilers on those systems. It also helps if you crucify any web developer who puts an "email a friend" form up. (Careful firewalling can help detect when such idiots have been about; you don't have to wait for your server to appear in one of the spam blacklists...)

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    8. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by caluml · · Score: 1

      Setting up Linux was like using strong wooden poles to hold the tent, and using OpenBSD was like using steel poles.

      Linux + GRSec + RBAC + PIE + SSP + etc etc = much much tougher.

    9. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by dkf · · Score: 1

      A language with too much checking will be slow (Java has a much better security name in this department than C for instance)

      The best way to do this is to have all the requirements and guarantees written in the code, right down to the low-level, and then to have a compiler that can remove explicit checks once it proves that they're not necessary. This is the sort of idea behind a language like Eiffel. (And the cost of checking at runtime for buffer overflow and other things like that is actually not that high. A lot of the time, you can compensate by building/using a proper high-quality buffer management lib rather than rolling your own hack each time round. "Do It Right, Once" is an excellent rule to follow.)

      and while seeing if my machine is sending mystery emails out to my friends would be good, what kind of transparency lets me "see" a buffer overflow caused by a Flash movie writing arbitrary code???

      Oh god! I just thought of using tubgirl as the visualization of that... Now to get that image out of my mind; where's the brain-bleach?

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    10. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Well, that's what rights management is for. Why do you allow them to do that? Because it's hard to set up SELinux, and simply deal with the non-allowance of so much stuff?

      I understand that. But unfortunately, it's no real excuse. :/

      I think there can be a ton of money made with a automation/optimization of setting up and maintaining such rights.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    11. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You really don't "get it" do you. No one is interested in hacking the OS whether it is windows, linux or OpenBSD. The point they are hacking your app and pulling what they need out of the app, no one gives a shit if your OS is safe or every other app on your box was smugly secure. You have lost your data, you have had everything that was important compromised and the OS was completely unaware. Even the worst OS (windows) is many times more secure than the most of the best apps out their and those apps are where the valuable content is.

    12. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by TheLink · · Score: 1

      But SQL injection goes all the way to the goodies whether it's Linux, OpenBSD or Windows.

      Typically the webapp has keys to those locked steel cubicles where the data is stored. Since the webapp needs to read and change the data.

      So whether it's OpenBSD or Linux or Windows it doesn't matter for the problem at hand.

      In my experience it does matter a bit whether it's PHP with its "mysql_definitely_real_escape_string_this_time_no_really", or some thing less crap (since PHP does make it easy to do th wrong thing and hard to do the right thing).

      But what matters more is whether the programmers are writing secure web apps.

      --
    13. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by bloodhawk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As a hacker and I am going to walk into your PHP cubicle, snarf up all your customer data to sell for identity fraud. But don't worry you can tell all your customers your OS was safe and the hacker was not able to break out of the sandbox to get access to your other apps. I am sure they will feel so much better about that having their details sold on the black market hearing that wonderfull news.

    14. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I had this discussion -- and yes, it was civil -- on deadly.org a while ago. Pointing out that web servers were like the circus coming to town. Setting up Linux was like using strong wooden poles to hold the tent, and using OpenBSD was like using steel poles.

      On OpenBSD, for years, the default Apache install has run:

      1. As an unprivileged user.
      2. In a chroot jail.
      3. With no ability to write to any of the files in this jail.
      4. With stack canaries, W^X protection, and address-space randomization.

      A lot of these have now been back-ported to the mainline of Apache. I think Apache on Linux now tends to use SELinux so it should be comparable (ignoring the recent few SELinux vulnerabilities), but a few years ago Apache on OpenBSD was a lot more secure than Apache on any other platform.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    15. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by chill · · Score: 1

      And my point was that in a real-world situation, this is mostly meaningless.

      1. How does this protect from someone compromising Apache to read the .php files on my server without them being parsed; extracting database login information; and pillaging my database?

      2. How does this protect from someone compromising Apache to read all the files in a shared web host?

      The whole "prevent them from getting root" mentality is like operating with blinders on. Great! They didn't get root or compromise the core OS. How does that help us explain to our clients how the database was sucked dry?

      If I have a web front-end to a database that 1,000 users interface to, I don't have 1,000 database logins with 1,000 views. Code on the web server usually handles the actual authentication, meaning the Apache process is going to be able to get a LOT of places in the database.

      All that is like saying "we have fire-hardened the bicycle chain and used a super-strong alloy so NOTHING can break the chain" when the lock is made of paper mache. The whole "weakest link" bit, etc.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    16. Re:OpenBSD vs Linux by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      The database has its own access control. Compromising Apache on Linux and getting root access meant that you could just read the filesystem and get (or modify) the contents of the database. Compromising Apache on OpenBSD meant that you then had an entry point for attacking the database. This concept is called 'defence in depth'. The database should be regarding the web application as a barely-trusted client. It should not, for example, be allowed to read password information, it should provide passwords to the DB which will then check them via a stored procedure.

      If I have a web front-end to a database that 1,000 users interface to, I don't have 1,000 database logins with 1,000 views. Code on the web server usually handles the actual authentication, meaning the Apache process is going to be able to get a LOT of places in the database.

      Then you are an idiot. If your database is designed to trust the web server, then your database is as secure as your web server. If you're intentionally going to bypass the protection that your OS gives you, then any OS will be insecure.

      All that is like saying "we have fire-hardened the bicycle chain and used a super-strong alloy so NOTHING can break the chain" when the lock is made of paper mache. The whole "weakest link" bit, etc.

      No, it's like saying "we have fire-hardened the bicycle chain and used a super-strong alloy so NOTHING can break the chain" and then you deciding to just loop the chain around the handlebars and not connect it to anything else.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  5. Link to the report by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  6. Can only apply the patches you get by petes_PoV · · Score: 2, Interesting

    SANS found that most organizations are focusing their patching efforts and vulnerability scanning on the operating system, but they're missing the boat

    They make it sound as if it's the fault of the client companies. In fact they probably apply all the security patches they get from their suppliers. If most of them come from the O/S vendors and relatively few come from the application vendors - you can hardly blame their cleints.

    Maybe SANS should, instead, be asking why application vendors are so tardy about providing fixes for the vulnerabilities that SANS seem to think are the most exploited? Of course, the answer would be that the baddies focus their efforts on the weakest link, which is why more attacks target the (weak) applications than the better supported operating systems.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:Can only apply the patches you get by 0racle · · Score: 1

      They did also mention vulnerability scanning to the patching when saying companies were focusing in the wrong place. This means a company can say "We scanned that box with X app and found no X OS holes" when in all reality they are running vulnerable versions of Y and Z apps and the companies scan didn't pick that up because they were focusing on OS vulnerabilities.

      There are also many companies that while being diligent on patching their OS's, they are not so quick to apply application patches when they are released.

      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    2. Re:Can only apply the patches you get by compro01 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't think the problem is lack of application patches being provided, but the lack of them being delivered well.

      The problem as I see it is there is no good method of application patch delivery on Windows (And Mac for that matter). On Linux and BSD, you have package managers built into the distro that handles everything from the repositories (either the distro repositories or the application's repositories). On Windows, there is no such thing (Yes, there package managers available, but they are not included stock and aren't widely used) and every application has to handle things itself, either by checking on startup or adding yet another background process taking up resources, both of which are decidedly non-optimal solutions.

      In the former, with infrequently used apps (Stuff like Adobe Reader comes to mind), you're going to have infrequent (and thus large) updates, which would result in something like "What? A 15MB update? I don't have time for that, I need to read this PDF." with the obvious consequences or the file being opened before the update option is presented, with the same result.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    3. Re:Can only apply the patches you get by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 1

      It's even worse than that, because in most environments users don't have administrator rights and therefore cannot install application updates themselves. But as you say, there's also no good, widespread way of delivering patches for third-party applications without user involvement.

      Sometimes it seems like the easiest way is just to reimage every PC every week/day.

      apt and friends aren't perfect, especially when dealing with large applications. On the other hand, reinstalling the entire app does mean you don't need to keep its install files around for patches. <grumble> It seems like these days Windows has at least 3 copies of every damned application buried somewhere under \Windows\... </grumble>

  7. The problem is in job responsibility by suso · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As a long time sysadmin and also as a programmer, I know that sysadmins generally try to draw their line of responsibilities or at least what they will take care of just below the "user installed software" level. I do have general knowledge of some of these applications and know which ones have vulnerabilities, but I usually ask that the programmer or user of the software maintain it. Although they seldom do and then ask for help when something gets hacked.

    Perhaps the responsibility for these apps should be in the hands of the sysadmin as well, but the number of apps you have to maintain as you go up to that level increases exponentially. Plus, since they are usually not part of the OS, your OS company is not going to provide you with an easy way to maintain them, so you either need an application administrator or you need to train the programmer/user. Companies probably don't see the point.

    1. Re:The problem is in job responsibility by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 5, Informative

      For commonly used applications that make the CSV lists I find the Personal Software Inspector an excellent tool.

      http://secunia.com/vulnerability_scanning/personal/

      Amazing how many userland applications out there have some kind of exploit against them : /

    2. Re:The problem is in job responsibility by suso · · Score: 1

      I was thinking of server side stuff, but that may be a good client side program.

      Actually, something like that for web applications would be nice. Probably is already something, just hard to find among the barrage of apps out there.

    3. Re:The problem is in job responsibility by spinkham · · Score: 2, Informative

      Cassandra is probably the best resource for that, you can build a profile of the software you use, and it will alert you when a vulnerability is fixed in that software.

      Secunia of course offers commercial tools, but I've never used them, so not sure how useful they are.
      http://secunia.com/advisories/business_solutions/

      Also, vulnerability management/discovery software like NeXpose or Nessus also can find many similar problems, especially if you give them access credentials.

      --
      Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
    4. Re:The problem is in job responsibility by spinkham · · Score: 1

      Of course, none of the above finds publicly unknown bugs such as you'd have in custom apps, that's a whole different suite of tools/professionals..

      --
      Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
    5. Re:The problem is in job responsibility by andymadigan · · Score: 1

      Plus, you eventually end up with a system where all applications have to be approved by the BOFH. Then, when a developer/techie who knows what he's doing needs to use a new tool to solve a problem it ends up in a 6-month queue for "approval".

      --
      The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
    6. Re:The problem is in job responsibility by dkf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Plus, you eventually end up with a system where all applications have to be approved by the BOFH. Then, when a developer/techie who knows what he's doing needs to use a new tool to solve a problem it ends up in a 6-month queue for "approval".

      What actually happens is that the user complains to Heap Big Boss (board-level or equivalent) and they instruct the poor BOFH to approve their pet project immediately or find another job. It's a really bad idea to be the person who says "no" to another person doing their job, especially if they have the ear of higher up (and most users will only deliberately use a new app if it is something dictated from on high; the rest of the time they'll cling to old stuff far more than a BOFH would).

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
  8. pointing fingers by orev · · Score: 1

    Usually the "lowly" task of patching is sloughed off onto the sysadmins, while the developers in their hubris think there's nothing wrong with anything they wrote. OS/app patches are easily obtained and applied because many people use them. In house apps take a lot more resources to analyze and patch, and add the previously-mentioned hubris and you have a situation where resources will never be spent patching the in-house apps, because it's not their problem anyway.

  9. Security through head in sand by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

    Most companies I have worked for will overly lock down one area of security (ex. overly tight settings on web browsing)and completely ignore all other forms of security (ex. employee ability to install unlicensed SW on local PC). I can't say I've ever seen any of them install a patch for MS Office unless I did it myself on an individual machine. I'm sure the cost of manpower hours far outweighs the risk in most CFO's minds (CIOs probably look at it differently but don't get the final say). I've also noticed it has a lot to do with the CIO's particular bent. Some feel a good "offense" is best while others are always taking the "defensive" posture.

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    1. Re:Security through head in sand by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Patching msoffice is a pain, installing updates can actually break document compatibility with unpatched versions... Also unless you install something like wsus, you can't patch them easily..
      Third party apps are another big problem, because there is no standard centralised way to patch them at all that doesn't cost a lot of money.

      These are just some of the hidden costs of running windows, that are often overlooked and cause problems as a result (by contrast, linux typically has such functionality out of the box)

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    2. Re:Security through head in sand by Flere+Imsaho · · Score: 1

      WSUS does Office patching, not an issue

      What's a lot harder is patching Adobe products and the like. We're currently investigating Shavlik Netchk Pro for patching apps

      http://www.shavlik.com/netchk-protect.aspx

      --
      It gripped her hand gently. 'Regret is for humans,' it said.
  10. Insecurity Experts by sexconker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Always telling you what you're doing wrong, never telling you how to do it right.

    How do you serve up the content and services end-users expect without the security risks?
    Simple answer: You can't.

    Unless you're writing your own operating system and rolling your own PDF viewers and office suite and publishing your own flash-like plug-in that no one will ever want to install, you'll end up running around like a chicken with it's head cut off every once in a while because of fucking adobe, fucking bill, fucking Linus 20 years ago, fucking java, etc.

    You can extend this to hardware too if you want.
    You never really know what that network card is doing, do you?

    But at the end of the day, we have to get shit done. "Safety first" in construction is a farce. Getting the job done is first. Getting the job done right and on time is second. Safety's third. Maybe.
    The same goes for security in the computer world. We cover the biggest holes and keep our ears open. But our primary goal is making shit available to the end-user.

    I'm going to get shit from nerds claiming that I HAVE to be 100% secure. Fuck them. I HAVE to get the job done. My being 98% secure isn't very far from their being 99.99% secure.

    Patching all the usual suspects (Adobe, Java, Office, the OS) certainly falls in the "should be done regularly and diligently" category. But as stated above, I understand why it doesn't always happen, (and it's not just due to incompetence).
    A report saying what people are doing wrong isn't helpful. A report saying "these fuckers are always problematic - here's a practical solution" would be much more useful.

    1. Re:Insecurity Experts by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is that while there are solutions, they often won't be considered for various reasons...

      There are expensive patch management systems for windows, but they are often extremely expensive and typically complex to manage.

      There is the option of moving to linux, where on any modern distro it's easy to keep all your applications up to date with patches, but people are either locked in to windows applications, afraid to try something new or simply have no knowledge of linux.

      I would say that the benefits are a lot more than the 1.9% you mention, and if done correctly actually requires *less* work... I keep a small network of linux boxes fully up to date and spend very little time doing so, while other people managing a similar sized windows network tend to lag behind badly (especially on third party apps). I have the package manager update its package list daily, and alert me if theres any needed updates.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    2. Re:Insecurity Experts by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      People keep talking about Linux and apt as if there is no Windows equivalent. I've not used Windows for about five years, but I know that a Windows Domain Controller can push out MSI installers to all workstations in a domain, containing updates to any software that the administrator packages. Before this, there was Novell Zen, which did the same thing. You just need to roll up the patches on one machine and they will be pushed automatically to the whole network.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  11. IE6 by godztempus · · Score: 4, Funny

    Seriously big corporate needs to get off their asses and upgrade their internal web apps to run on IE7 or IE8 atleast.

    1. Re:IE6 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're working one it

    2. Re:IE6 by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Ha. I programmed mine for Mozilla (Seamonkey) and Firefox. "IE? Sorry, no can do. Technically not possible. Or will cost four times the time and money. How are you going to justify that? By not wanting to take five minutes to install Firefox? You can be sure that I will show the boss those costs that your laziness caused. Oh boy will you be fired. ^^"

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  12. Ease of patching by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I feel like OS patching is less due to company policy than the presence of Windows Update. I imagine that a third-party app like Firefox is dramatically less likely to be vulnerable (ignoring plug-ins) than something like Office, simply because Mozilla makes it so easy to stay up-to-date. The solution isn't user-education; it's releasing patches more frequently, and making the patch process more transparent.

    1. Re:Ease of patching by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

      Firefox is dramatically less likely to be vulnerable (ignoring plug-ins)

      This is like a repeat of the summary, ROFL.

      OS:App::Browser:Plugin

      because Mozilla makes it so easy to stay up-to-date

      There are centralized tools to manage Mozilla updates or we expect users to take care of themselves?
      Hell, Windows update is a piece of cake too, WTF is Microsoft's problem? Consistency is key, and any environment that takes security seriously needs to enforce security updates, not hope all users understand info security.

    2. Re:Ease of patching by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Most companies won't allow users to install updates themselves...

      They need to push updates with some kind of central policy and a background process doing it, otherwise you need to give users admin privs to install the updates. While firefox may have an updater, that wont work if you don't have privileges to install them. MS don't make an easy way for third party applications to be centrally updated, unlike systems such as apt and yum on linux boxes.

      On some versions of windows, when you run as an unprivileged user and automatic updates are turned on, you get a dialog box telling you updates were applied and giving you the option to reboot, only you cant select that option because you don't have privileges to do so... Very stupid, you can tell it's designed as a single user os.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  13. It's really simple by onyxruby · · Score: 1

    If a medium is presented that interacts with something it must be patched! The more prevalent the medium, the higher the level of patching required.

    Whether that medium is email, your browser, the OS, office or the like should not matter. It doesn't matter if a new killer app comes out, if it interacts with your computers, you need to patch it for security issues on a routine basis.

    Really, the OS, vendor, and the rest don't matter, what matters is that routine patching is done. At first people were surprised that they could get malware from disks, than files, than emaal, infected Internet sites and so on. Is it really a surprise to anyone that you applications like Acrobat and Flash are routinely targeted? Every time the media presents this as the 'next big thing', really how did this not story get approved?

  14. Permits and Inspectors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't build computer system shanty towns. Require that systems be built by licensed and bonded professionals; that the work is inspected and certified; and that new systems and major changes get permits before starting. Worked for residential construction in the U.S. and we still have a relatively high home ownership rate.

    1. Re:Permits and Inspectors by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A lot of the "professionals" are fairly incompetent, and you can bet that big vendors (especially ms) would corrupt the process to ensure that you can only be licensed if you only install their products.

      I've found through the years, that enthusiasts who taught themselves, learned through experience and had a genuine interest in computing tend to be very good at what they do, whereas people who attended training courses and got certifications generally were only interested in the money they could earn from a career in computing, and are often stumped by something that wasn't covered on their course.

      The latter kind of people are also extremely averse to learning anything new, and will want to remain in the bubble they were originally taught while the former will actively seek out new technologies to experiment with and learn about.

      I have found that the course-taught people will typically believe what vendors tell them and never question it, if a vendor tells them a product is good/secure they will assume it is, and won't do proper research on how to harden it or what else might be a better option.
      And they won't seek out anything that isn't advertised to them, this is why there is such a huge problem with unpatched third party apps as the article states, these people don't even realise there is a problem because there aren't any vendors heavily marketing a "solution" for it.

      Having requirements like you specify is likely to do more harm than good.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    2. Re:Permits and Inspectors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't build computer system shanty towns. Require that systems be built by licensed and bonded professionals; that the work is inspected and certified; and that new systems and major changes get permits before starting. Worked for residential construction in the U.S. and we still have a relatively high home ownership rate.

      Surely you jest...

      If people could buy houses at half off, built by unlicensed, unbonded workers, not inspected or certified, with no permits, warranties, guarantees, they would fall all over themselves, and wedge lower and upper classes further apart. Computing, at least, isn't a necessity.

  15. Too confusing by Oxy+the+moron · · Score: 1

    This would have been so much easier to understand with a proper /. car analogy.

    --

    Proudly supporting the Libertarian Party.

    1. Re:Too confusing by slinches · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This would have been so much easier to understand with a proper /. car analogy.

      Here you go:

      It's like locking your car doors and keeping up with the manufacturer recall notices, but ignoring that the remote start system you had installed uses an unencrypted signal.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
  16. Analogy by rockNme2349 · · Score: 1

    Uhhh, I don't really get it. Can you put that in the form of a car analogy?

    --
    Sewage Treatment Facilities - "Our duty is clear."
  17. duh? by Lord+Ender · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Patching Windows is the main focus because it is the best bang for the buck. There are many tools to automate this process (Active Directory, Group Policy, SUS). There are no tools to automatically discover XSRF, XSS, and Injection attacks in your custom web apps, then write patches for them, then deploy and manage those patches. That's orders of magnitude more expensive.

    When you have limited resources, you will just go for the lowest-hanging fruit. Obviously.

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    1. Re:duh? by Flere+Imsaho · · Score: 1

      Nessus has a pretty good plug-in for finding SQL injection and cross-site vulnerabilities.

      But getting them fixed, yeah, that can be painful...

      --
      It gripped her hand gently. 'Regret is for humans,' it said.
  18. PEBKAC by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    People are the ultimate vulnerability. And that goes from applying the same solution for all problems (that desktop environment looks nice for personal trusted use, lets use it to let it run for hundreds of untrusted ones), to opening attachments, to confusing authority with knowledge (i am the boss and want full access to internet and all the corporate servers) to admins and thousands of etcs.

    The security suite to solve it is education and common sense. One takes too long to get, while the other could take forever for some. How to raise a culture on security to "normal" people?

  19. Mod parent SERIOUS (not funny) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not funny. Corporate apps running ONLY on IE6 because they were developed by a bunch of barely-literate indians who only tested on IE6 are the reason "web side attacks" are a threat. Eliminating the use of IE6 would massively reduce the attack surface of an organization EVEN IF the org continued to use IE for some insane reason.

  20. You're still missing the point by TheLink · · Score: 1

    You're still missing the point totally.

    Good luck telling your customers that "Who cares about your identity theft problem? Who cares that someone stole stuff from your account? It's not a big problem since we don't have to rebuild the O/S, so we don't have to wait hours to get it back up."

    Uh huh.

    The loss of the O/S hardly matters. The DATA does.

    1) There are ZILLIONS of copies of the O/S out there, and many of them are the latest and greatest versions. There aren't zillions of copies of your data, and the few copies there may not be the latest and greatest.
    2) Your data backups could be full of already corrupted data and you don't know when the corruption started because the webapp is full of holes.
    3) Restoring from backups does NOTHING when the problem is secret/confidential/sensitive information has been leaked.

    The rebuild time for an O/S is not a problem, so many ways of dealing with it if necessary.

    --
  21. While installing Office 2007... by Sfing_ter · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    While installing office 2007 this morning, I too exacerbated... but I don't feel guilty or self-conscious about it. :D

    --
    A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
  22. OS vulnerabilities still present by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article presented interesting data but failed to understand how we got where we are. Formerly, the overwhelming majority of attacks were OS attacks. If both OS and application vulnerabilities are present, attackers are more likely to be able to find a vulnerable OS than a vulnerable application; there are a lot fewer OS choices than application choices. Over the years, sysadmins and major vendors realized this and made a huge effort to improve OS patch processes, with a fairly high degree of success. Attackers have responded by moving on to applications; particular apps are harder to find, but if the OSs are hardened, then app it is. But attackers are still probing OSs and trying attacks on them, too. If we improve application patching at the expense of OS patching, as recommended in this article, then we actually make attackers' jobs easier. So we can only improve application patching if it does not interfere with OS patching. If funds to do that are available, great. If not, the status quo may be best.

  23. Additionnal repositories by DrYak · · Score: 1

    It's called apt. It's already widely deployed in Debian and Ubuntu, and has been for a long time. The problem is solved.

    And for completness:

    • on openSUSE it's "zypper".
    • on some embed Linux distros it's "ipkg" and it's derivate (like opkg).

    What proportion of third party vendors distribute their software using apt ?

    There is :

    • a great dealy of 3rd party opensource producers who provide repositories for their softwares. Not only binaries, not only packages, but full repositories which can be added to apt/zypper/whatever and get automatically updated
    • there's also a great deal of additional external repositories - such as for example "PPA" for ubuntu, Debian multimedia, openSUSE's repositories, and Packman (which is multi-platform, but mostly concentrates on multimedia packages which can't be legally distributed with openSUSE)
    • whenever possible people try to package 3rd party commercial application in these repositories - you can find closed source drivers, flash, acrobat, microsoft's font. The only limit is whether the author authorise re-packing and re-distribution. Even then, sometime packagers manage to go around such limitation by making packages which are actually updating scripts (ms fonts works that way)

    So, in short, a great deal of software in addition to what came on you CD can already get updated today.

    Not only that, but to make the whole experience more user friendly, some like openSUSE have developed method where a single link on a web page can be processed by the package manager and, once given the necessary privilege, with 1 webpage clic, you get automatically the correct repository added and the necessary packages selected.

    Meanwhile, with microsoft you get 1 central system (windows updates) which is used for the OS and maybe for a couple of other microsoft products (MS-Office, Visual Studio) as long as the user selects the appropriate service (microsoft updates). Then you have a couple of other software which implements their own incompatible updates tracking (Firefox) of which some are really cumbersome (Acrobat). Virtually everything else is left to rot.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  24. Re: About PSI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can this company be trusted? This tool finds the most commonly used programs and versions to prioritize for hackers..

  25. Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hope that you are trying to be funny.
    Laugh all you like, but a lot of applications for corporate intranets do specifically, and in some cases only, cater to IE: After all, it's what is on every machine in the office, right? And, it integrates with the Windows OS which most desktops have, right?

    The downside here is that you now have to cater for the problems using IE as a core browser has. For comparison: Yes, still on IE6 for many places. The hassle of an IE browser upgrade on 20,000+ desktops will be on the nasty side.

    Let's compare this to 5K of firefox upgrades, v2 to v3, recently undertaken. 1% of users had either a standard question to the helpdesk or a problem to be resolved. Less than 1% of that 1% had a Serious issue that could not be solved remotely. (quoting the PIR here)

    Now. The last IE 'upgrade' (this word is in QUOTES as using this word to describe the changes from V5 to V6 for IE may not be considered an 'upward' movement by some) caused 20% of the user base to reference the FAQ and 5% to lodge a helpdesk call for assistance.

    We're not even going to discuss the $##$%#@ developers. In case you're interested though.. it goes like this 'Firefox upgrade? Sure. When?' .. as opposed to 'IE upgrade? Aw crap. WHEN? Will we have time to test? How long will we have to develop in parallel? What's the issues with next version? Who's bucket will this come out of?"

    YMMV

  26. Understood, but there's a larger picture. by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

    Yes, the data is highest in importance, etc. However, the data does not an entire server make, and getting that data back up and spinning ASAP is even more important.

    Yes, the site getting popped for any reason still sucks. However, there's still the question as to how big of a crater gets left behind, to use an abstraction.

    Pull the zoom back a bit and look at the larger picture. If the data gets corrupted, most-to-almost-all of it (depending on how you built things) can be restored and recovered. If you built the server right initially, you probably won't even lose anything really valuable (e.g. customer data) to those who penetrate the thing.

    However, from this pulled-back view, the question still remains - how bad did it get?

    • If it's just in the chroot jail, then the person penetrating got no further, and you have a little cleaning up to do w/ very little downtime.
    • If the OS is compromised, then odds are good that the entire box needs to be flushed.
    • Worse still, if we're talking more than one box and the OS gets compromised, then you'd better start sniffing the rest of your DMZ (or worse) for signs of penetration.

    I don't know about you, but I would much prefer to clean up after a pipe bomb blast than to clean up after a thermonuclear detonation.

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    1. Re:Understood, but there's a larger picture. by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Just like the SANS report says, you're focusing on the wrong security threats.

      What if the data is corrupted but you don't know when? It could be stuff just doesn't add up.

      You can find SQL injection and web app security flaws really easily. Why bother trying to break a server at the O/S level, especially when it's behind a firewall and there are easier ways in?

      Who cares about chroot jails, when you can already get to the data. I have managed to get bank and other webapps to do stuff they shouldn't allow, and believe me, the O/S and chroot jails do NOTHING against that sort of stuff. They enforce at a totally different layer. The O/S knows nothing about cheques, bank accounts, money etc. The O/S cares about process isolation, memory protection, file access controls, that sort of thing.

      Why should a hacker break out of a chroot jail, if the hacker can already transfer money from one account to another using an exploit in the webapp? You think a bank will care that the O/Ses are fine when it finds out that millions of dollars have been siphoned off to Nigeria?

      The webapps already have the keys to the "bank safes". They need it to do stuff they were written for.

      Once the money is gone (transferred and/or withdrawn as cash), you can go restore from backups all you want, but the Central Bank isn't going to let you recreate the stolen money - they want to hold a strict monopoly on money creation ;).

      If you're an online casino and players find an exploit in your gambling app, it doesn't matter if the gambling app is stuck in a jail and can't rm -rf your filesystem.

      O/S being blown away is petty stuff. Go run a snapshot/virtual machine restore script or something.

      I guess if you're running facebook or twitter, data corruption doesn't really matter that much. Oh boohoo, 1374 listed friends instead of 1389. Go readd them again. But even then, I bet few really care about screwing up the facebook/twitter O/Ses, they're more interested in the "app level" stuff.

      Those that aren't interested would just DDoS the sites.

      --