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No App Store For Microsoft's Zune HD
Xerfas writes 'Microsoft's Zune HD, set to go on sale Tuesday, will not feature an open application store like its competitor the iPod Touch. It will come with some unique features, though, like an HD radio tuner, and with software that has been well-received by users. Those capabilities will determine whether the ZuneHD sells well — and whether Microsoft decides to keep selling its own music player, said Matt Rosoff, an analyst at Directions on Microsoft.' The Zune marketing manager was quoted in the Seattle Times on whether the Zune would open up for 3rd-party apps, and he gave a response of such mind-numbing PR-speak that John Gruber of Daring Fireball was moved to provide this English translation: "No, because our mobile strategy is a convoluted mess."
"Microsoft's Zune HD, set to go on sale Tuesday, will not feature a tightly controlled by control freaks with degrees in control freakery application store like its competitor the iPod Touch."
Fixed.
I have a cheap sansa. It plays mp3/ogg/flac. It plays little xvid videos and plays and records FM.
What more do I need?
Are these damn players becoming like cell phones? Do app stores matter? Makes no sense to me.
It's ironic that the "HD" in "HD radio" stands for high definition, when current digital, especially with lossy comression, has a LOWER definition than the old analog vinyl did.
A few things:
1) It's a good thing the HD in HD Radio doesn't stand for "High Definition" then. It's "Hybrid Digital".
2) HD Radio is higher fidelity than FM, and that's what it's being compared to. ("Definition" doesn't really work with audio, anyway)
3) Vinyl may have a higher theoretical accuracy, but CDs have a far lower noise floor, which in practice makes them far more accurate.
I guess that's why they changed it from "High Fidelity" to "High Definition, because at today's low sampling rates and especially lossy compression, the fidelity just isn't there.
Again, they didn't change it. And at the recording studio, they're using higher sampling rates and less compression than ever. The fact that the music you buy from iTunes is more compressed (And the fact that CDs in the "Loudness War" are clipped) is irrelevant.
Yeah. All those pops and scratches and distortion really make you believe being in a live performance.
Anyway, there are only a bunch of artists who sound good live making your rambling a moot point.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Let's see, it's set to go on sale just about now. So how exactly has the software "been well-received by users"???
You know, I know this is slashdot and all, but this is a VERY biased article.
They don't have an open app store yet because they want all the games to be free, and developed in house, which isn't as bad as this summary makes it sound.
They aren't merging with windows mobile's store because they want to make extra sure the Zune is perfect, and I absolutely don't blame them.
I'm pretty annoyed that whoever wrote this summary was this biased, the Zune HD looks awesome and its really unfair to try to make it look bad on a site that gets 2 million hits a day. If it ends up being bad, that's one thing, but give it a freakin chance.
-Taylor
Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
HD Radio stands for Hybrid-Definition. It's misleading marketing bullshit.
The guy who initially demoed Zune couple of months ago was scrolling the list of songs on the device and said (in reference to a 480-by-272 display) "Look at the gorgeous screen. You can really see the HD." I don't think people at Microsoft really understand the meaning of High Definition or lying through their teeth in their marketing materials.
Are these damn players becoming like cell phones? Do app stores matter? Makes no sense to me.
In the case of the iPod Touch, it's become a highly popular gaming platform, not to mention having things like iCal, wifi, safari bundled, etc etc. It's either filled a void by providing a hybrid PDA+music player+gaming device, or created that void and told people that they need this. Imho it's a bit of both.
Reply to That ||
Have you ever heard a CD that you would confuse with a live performance?
No. Thankfully I can play at less than ~100dBA.
I have heard LPs played on high end equipment that you would confuse with a live performance.
No, I would not. It does not have the ambience of a stadium and the feeling of over 1000 people around me.
I am so sick and tired of "LP is analog therefore better" bullshit that I strongly recommend you to calculate LP's channel capacity (according to Shannon's nice theorem). You will be surprised how much you have to fiddle with the numbers before you get higher than 1.4Mbit/s (stereo).
HD stand for HIGH DISTORTION
Lets not also forget that HD is not a widely used system. Its closed source and only used in North America. In Europe DAB is the standard, so good luck using or selling the zune outside the states.
Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
after Apple dropped the price on the iPod touch. Regardless of how good the new Zune is, the point is that it has a LOOOONG way to go before it catches up and pricing yourself about the same as your already well-established competitor is pretty much a recipe for failure.
Monstar L
What happened to the day when microsoft made a million useless machines usefull again... now their just making a million useless machines
There's an old saying that goes "If Hitler says 2+2=4, you can't argue with him." Did you RTFA? How is this NOT a convoluted mess?:
It's hard to say right now. If you look around the company at other places where things like this are important, Windows Mobile rises to the top... Right now our product roadmaps didn't line up perfectly for us to snap to what they're doing or vice versa. That being said, we know people want things like this on their devices so we're going to build them ourselves, they're going to be super high-quality, and they're going to be free.
Down the road if there's a way we can work with Windows Mobile or another group inside the company that's building an app store and take advantage of that, that's something we'll look into.
This thing has been in development for YEARS and they're JUST NOW realizing that maybe people will want to run apps on them, and they're announcing that they don't know how, if, or when that will happen? I don't care who says it--John Gruber, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, it doesn't matter--it is clearly a convoluted mess.
For fuck's sake, why on Earth DIDN'T MS just build the Zune functionality on top of WIndows Mobile? Zune has been out for almost 3 years; Windows Mobile for about 9. What is so mind-blowingly intense about what the Zune does (plays music, shows pictures, plays video; probably with neat sliding or fading transitions between menus and modes) that there was NO FUCKING WAY that all the great minds in Redmond could POSSIBLY make it work with ANY variant of Windows Mobile? Really, all they had to do was make a shiny "media app" that ran on top of Windows Mobile, the same way that "Media Center" is just an app that runs on top of regular Windows.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Zune does have a 'store'. There is the Zune Marketplace, around longer than the iphone app store. You can download games to your Zune (very limited) from the Marketplace, isn't that essentially what the iPhone app store does? The Zune isn't the iPhone or the iTouch (comes close), it is a DRM heavy Microsoft portable media player with the ability to run certain apps and share things with other Zune owners. If you have the cash and easy wifi access, then you are set on the media front. The Zune isn't for the pirate with a billion mp3's on their system as the Windows software is tailored to help you download from the Marketplace. The Zune is for listening to music, podcasts, watching videos and movies, being part of a Zune community.
An app store doesn't even make sense with the Zune fees. You can buy songs piecemeal but that would be idiotic when you can get all-you-can-eat plans. And if the smartest thing to do on the zune is pay for all-you-can-eat, why would somebody then pay extra for little games and apps?
The HD radio thing is not new, it's been in the Zune since the first incarnation. The newest feature would have to be it's ability to download tracks (from the Marketplace) that you hear and tag while listening to the radio.
There is an SDK for developing apps, if you are into that kind of stuff.
They got rid "squirting" feature which Balmar was so proud of.
First, Microsoft has removed the "squirting" feature, which let you send songs directly from one Zune to another. This feature was supposed to be a big selling point of the first Zune but was crippled by unreasonable rights restrictions that let you play songs only three times or within three days (whichever came first). Microsoft and content owners gradually loosened those restrictions, but the feature never made much difference--mainly because there were so few Zune users out there to exchange songs with. (The "first man with a telephone" problem.) Now it's gone
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13526_3-10352637-27.html
You make entierly untrue assumptions about HD radio, and unfair comparisons.
HD radio requires a fraction of the power of analog.
HD radio requires a fraction of the bandwidth of analog.
HD radio survives with 0% distortion over the majority of its receivable range.
HD radio is capable of CD-quality sound.
HD radio is capable of >2-channel encoding.
Similarly, your LP-vs-CD, while bordering on religious, is unfounded. Though LPs have a higher top frequency than standard CDs on their first play, both are well above human hearing.
The long-and-short is that the quality of playback on high-end equipment, when considered in light of the human ear, will be far more dependant on the mastering than on CD-vs-LP. And at that level we are usually discussing SACD and DVD-A... welcome to the 21st century.
And yes, I've heard CDs sound like live; and I've heard a number of SACDs that do. I suspect that you havent either because of a disparity in the mastering, a disparity in the playback equipment, or listener bias.
Why do they only sell the Zune it in the US ? If they don't have the complexity of an application store, it should be relatively easy.
You have to wonder if Microsoft really wants to sell Zunes... As an iPod user, I would welcome a stronger competition.
Please Microsoft, keep Apple at work, else they will become another lazy monopolist !
Sure a dedicated app store is a great way to funnel your customers to your door. But that's like saying you only have one store available to you, and you have to pay in Stokessd-town dollars. I'm sure you would have less total customers than if the unit was open to applications from anywhere, although you'll most likely collect more stokessd-town dollars.
You're only seeing half the picture. Having a built in store that collects all the apps in one place is a feature and customers really, really, really like being able to get everything from one place in one consistent way. This leaves phone implementors with three choices:
MS picked the choice that is the least work, least innovative, and works like Windows. For some reason I'm not surprised.
*Zune HD AV Dock and an HDTV (all sold separately) are required to view video at HD resolution. Supported 720p HD video files play on the player, downscaled to fit the screen at 480 x 272 â" not HD resolution. Zune Pass subscription required; streaming via wi-fi available in U.S. only. HD Radioâ is a proprietary trademark of iBiquity Digital Corp. Learn more about HD Radio here.
So does that mean I need a "zune pass" to play video on my zune? What the hell is a zune pass anyway? Ok, so I look it up, but now why do I need it again?
...is how this time, M$ decided to leave behind their prior Zune models with any new features in the update. Discontinuing them should have been the sign. As a 18-month owner of a Zune80, I'm seriously disappointed. The only new features we legacy Zune (18months is legacy now?) users get are for the desktop app, which personally I only use to manage my device, and nothing more. Since I have it running on a Windows Media Center PC, why do I need yet another app that does pretty much the same thing, especially from the same vendor. Even more, in a time of recession, where I don't want to drop another couple hundred for a replacement device that's hardly showing its age or need for replacement, why would I possibly want to replace it?
If you read the Zune forums, its full of device feature requests for simple things...unicode support, crossfade, better playlist management, better integration with Windows apps (there is currently none for WMP or WMC). All of these pretty much since Gen-1 of the device, and all have been disregarded since the Zune marketing team felt it necessary to take this route instead.
Its simply a sad example of greed overtaking common sense at the expense of a bit more hard work. A philosophical example of modern capitalism and American excess too?
Anyone wanna buy a Gen-2 Zune80 is Good condition? I'll use the $ to buy a MiniSD for my cellphone to consolidate my gadgets instead.
From the HD Digital Radio FAQ
Q : WHAT DOES THE HD IN HD RADIO MEAN?
A: The 'HD' in 'HD Radio' is part of iBiquity Digital's brand name for its digital AM and FM radio technology. It does not mean either hybrid digital or high definition, it is simply the branding language for this new technology.
They are simply riding the wave of video High Definition hype nothing more.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
It will come with some unique features, though, like an HD radio tuner
Does "unique" mean "just like the iPod Nano"?
(The Nano's ability to show artist and song names, and its "iTunes Tagging" features, shared with some FM radio iPod docks, also use HD radio. Apple just doesn't, for whatever reason, put "HD radio" in giant flaming letters in its advertising.)
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
Have you ever heard a CD that you would confuse with a live performance?
Are you *really* serious? I don't buy that at all. You must not have had a very good CD player or summin. I have a *large* collection of LP's, 45's, and CD's, and most of my library I listen to is on my iPod now. I've spent enormous amounts of time comparing the AAC version of what I've recorded to the original. Can't tell a difference.
What I have found is that CD's tend to unmask the weakness of the original recording, making it a little less pleasurable to listen to. An extreme example is Journey "Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin". If you listen to it on a cheap radio over FM it's not too bad. Listen to it on LP it sounds better. Listen to it on a CD with high-end equipment (I have Mackie studio monitors) and it sounds absolutely friggin horrible. It's not the mastering of the CD or the quality of the A/D conversion, it's the original recording. Now go and listen to James Taylor "Everyday" - the remastered version - downloaded from iTunes. That's probably some of the best quality audio you'll ever hear.
Oh, and IAASE (I am a studio engineer)
Microsoft has done a very consistent job of managing the Zune. That management got it where it is today, and I see this revelation as being consistent with all the previous management decisions.
And where it is today is right at 2% market share (fifth paragraph from the bottom).
HD also refers to the 720p HDMI-out capability.
Sigs are for losers
Just got a Zune HD and the built-in support for 3rd party apps is pretty slow, it takes several seconds to load each of the handful of apps they have in the Zune app store.
Have you ever heard a CD that you would confuse with a live performance? Me either.
In fairness, that is more a fault of the way most CD's are mastered today, rather than an inherent problem with the CD format. It is possible to produce CDs with a decent amount of dynamic range that do have the "feel" or dynamics of a live performance.
It's too bad that none of the 24-bit music formats have really caught on. That increased bit depth gives even more opportunity to incorporate real dynamics. With a CD (16-bit) you only have 65,535 possible amplitude levels. With a 24-bit format you get 16,777,216 possible levels. It's like the difference between 16-bit and 24-bit color on your desktop - they may look similar at first, but once you know what to look (listen) for, the difference is obvious and you never want to go back to 16-bit.
Its confusing, but HD radio is secondary radio streams (low bit rate I'm told), that is broadcast by existing radio stations. Its confusing because it sounds like High Def, or High Definition (The zune supposedly does 720p).
Not many people have the radios (I don't) so people are confused. They're trying to get them into cars. Its fm's answer to satellite radio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio
There aren't many people who aren't MS fans who think a slab /multi touch / one button PMP isn't just another me too device. It might be good, but its not original.
Disk Image burning is actually a feature they included in Windows 7, its not too fully featured but it gets the job done.
Wow. If you want to get people to buy your product, nothing could exude less confidence than,
"Those capabilities will determine whether [...] Microsoft decides to keep selling its own music player."
Wow! Where can I buy a $100+ tech gadget that the manufacturer may wash its hands of real soon? I must have one!
This is a major oversight if Microsoft isn't going to allow 3rd party apps. Maybe when they get around to supporting it, you'll be able to install apps without using an iTunes-style interface. Directly from app's website perhaps?
It's just "Not Yet". This article is extremely biased, check out the Engadget article for actual info, not fanboy FUD.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/15/zune-hd-3d-gaming-and-app-downloads-confirmed/
-Taylor
Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
The HD is very, extremely real and even tangible. It's a ruby aura of beauty and contentment that is soft to the touch and fills your heart with joy (available only in select models-while synced with W7 in the presence of Steve Balmer-and God).
This is what he was refering to. Do some research before you blaspheme the most glorious product God gave MS the divine wisdom to create... geez.
Because they are finally powerful enough to replace laptops for many uses.
I just came back from Europe, on the way over I was flying next to someone who bought a Touch just so she could have email and web support while there, but without the weight of a laptop (she was going on a long biking trip). But she was also using a few applications like language tutorials and so on...
And of course, she could also have music while biking.
You device is fine for you, but it's nice to have devices that can do enough to make laptops a truly optional choice.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Heh...it's been proven that the PVC polymer chains that comprise LPs don't offer as much resolution, even on the molecular level, as 44.1 KHz sampled audio.
Back in the early seventies they introduced a recording technology called "quadrophonic" -- four channel sound. How they did they ger four channels out of a single groove? Well, monophonic records' up and down motion of the stylus was used for the signal. When stereo was introduced, they wanted them to be backward compatible, so the up and down motion encompassed both channels, while the left and right motion was a single channel. Whan that signal was added to the signal from the up and down motion, the signal from the sideways motion cancelled out leaving the other channel.
For the rear channels of quadrophonic they modulated the signals with a 44kHz tone, which was demodulated in the player. A CD's top frequency is 22kHz. If what you say had any validity, quadrophonic would have been impossible.
The infinite resolution thing is a myth.
Of course the resolution isn't infinite, nothing but infinity is infinite. But it's far better than CD.
Furthermore, LPs max out at maybe 70-80 dBa of dynamic range, while 16-bit CDs offer 96
Yes, CDs have superior dynamic range. Too bad nobody ever uses that dynamic range, and in fact modern engineers screw up old recordings. There is no technical reason why the dynamics of Boston's first album are less on the CD than the LP, it's just that the remastering was crap.
That being said, many early CDs were poorly mastered.
So are way too many modern CDs. A lot of old analog LPs were badly mastered, too. The tape hiss on Aerosmith's first album is clearly audible in the LP, but they did a far better job on the second album; no audible noise.
Free Martian Whores!
The iPhone initially show was in January right after the first Zune came out. I thought "Wow, that's what the Zune SHOULD HAVE BEEN". The Zune might be finally getting there, but now its too late.
Don't get me wrong. The Zune HD is finally turning out to be what it should have been all along. But, it's really not anything different than the iPod Touch and the iPod Touch has a gazillion applications. Well, you say, the original iPhone didn't have an app store, but neither did anyone else. The thing Microsoft must realize is that the Zune has to compete against THIS YEARS iPod Touch.
In marketing, you have something called the "delta". This is the thing that your product has that your competitors don't. When the iPhone came out, the delta was a true to life web browser and easy syncing with your computer. It was the music player/phone/browser that everyone wanted. Since then, everyone has a music player/browser/phone combo. Now, the delta is the app store.
What's the Zune HD's "delta" that will get me to throw out my iPod Touch and line up to buy a Zune? HD Radio? It's hasn't really caught on. OLCD screen? That's a nice touch, but is it that much better than the iPod's screen? The Zune is $10 cheaper? Naw.
Here's what the Zune should have had:
* Compatibility with the XBox. Hey, you got a zillion XBox games, why not make it so they can easily be ported to the Zune?
* Camera that's integrated with Twitter/Facebook/Flickr. It should have spot metering and auto focus. Optical Zoom would be a big plus.
* Multiple platforms. Hey, the Mac now represents 15% of the consumer market. Maybe even more. Why are you immediately dropping that big a chunk of the market? Heck, the songs in iTunes aren't DRMd any more, and there's an API for perusing the catalog, so you don't even have to pull a Palm Pre. Show that you're willing to compete against Apple's home turf. And, don't leave Linux out.
* Work out a deal w/ Sprint a la Kindle for networking. Not necessarily a phone service, but use the Sprint network for your network. And, of course, WiFi.
All of this would have made the Zune something to consider despite having sand kicked into its face and its lunch money taken for the last few years. Now, it's just an also ran iPod look alike. If I want an iPod look alike, I might as well by the real thing.
For the record, every time I grab an iPod I feel like I'm prying it from Steve Jobs cold undead hands.
Fixed that for you...
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Actually, what has apple done that's so terrible? It strikes me that every single story I hear about the iPhone/iPod is blown massively out of proportion. Both M$ and Apple pushed DRM, but apple gets the shit for it because iTunes is more popular. Apple sometimes bans apps in a seemingly arbitrary manner, but AFAIK M$ doesn't offer any ability to run 3rd party software yet. Which is worse? Well, Apple, because some people actually love Apple and it's funny to make them cry. Otherwise I'd say they were as bad as eachother.
That's coming from someone who uses a mix of Mac, Linux, Windows, and OpenSolaris.
mysql> SELECT * FROM `places` WHERE `place` LIKE 'home`; Empty set (0.00 sec)
What gets me is that they are eroding storage space...and the Classic, which will probably go away in a year or so
That's what everyone said about the Classic last year. And in fact, the Classic has *gained* storage space in the recent update (updated to 160GB from 120GB). How is that erosion?
The classic will be around just long enough for flash devices to support similar storage and then, it might go away. But it's clear Classic level storage is going to stick around, there are plenty of other people with large libraries of music.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley