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ASCAP Says Apple Should Pay For 30-sec. Song Samples
CNet reports on a new money battle brewing between those who generate music and those who profit from selling it on the Net. "Songwriters, composers, and music publishers are making preparations to one day collect performance fees from Apple and other e-tailers for not just traditional music downloads but for downloads of films and TV shows as well. Those downloads contain music after all. These groups even want compensation for iTunes' 30-second song samples. ... Apparently, the music industry can't obtain the fees through negotiations. They have begun lobbying Congress to pass legislation that would require anyone who sells a download to pay a performance fee..."
for advertising their product for free.... um, pretty much EVERY other industry in the world would like their products advertised for free, and if someone did that for them they certainly wouldn't sue over it.
Monstar L
Dig a grave for this dead industry.
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Man, this makes SOOOOOOOO angry. Someone should write a song about this.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
I'm sure if I presented a thesis saying that my new form of business model required passing laws in Congress requiring people to give me money at the mere mention of my product, I'd be laughed out of school.
And yet, this seems to be turning into a reality?
Maybe what we need isn't just a government that has its hands off of business, we need businesses to keep their hands off the government too.
They really want to shoot themselves in the foot, don't they?
Amendment XXVIII - Strike the following: "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited
Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;". Replace with: "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for Times not to exceed 14 years to Authors, or 25 years for Inventors, the limited Privilege to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"
The actual time limits can be debated, but they need to be set in the constitution, not left to a congress that can be bribed with corporate donations.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
The makers of the film or TV show had to pay for the song in the first place. The label was already paid for the use and can't extract money again from the redistributor.
Were it not for the fact that it would cause iTunes to implode (fiscally speaking), I would suggest that Apple simply remove the 30 second streamsand sell everything based on title alone, or make them available "for a fee" that nobody would EVER pay. Let's see how well that works.
Of course, the other explanation for their request is that the music they're selling mostly sucks bad enough that exposing 30 seconds of it will kill the sale.
P.S.
I should probably explain: I think "Right" needs to be changed to "Privilege" for the simple reason that rights are timeless. They are an innate quality of being human and never expire. Therefore a limited-term copyright is not a right, but merely a privilege extended by the ruling government.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
It would be interesting if Apple did a test where they removed samples from say from the top 1000 songs, then provided 30 second samples for say 50 and calculated how much the 30 second sample actually generated in sales revenue.
The samples on iTunes allow people to figure out if they want to legally buy a song that actually generates revenue for the artists. If I can't sample what I'm deciding to buy, chances are I'd most likely go straight to limewire and get it that way, because these songs are non refundable.
All ASCAP seem to be doing here is encouraging more piracy, most people are generally happy to pay for media if its easy to obtain and its not a difficult process that you have to jump through endless micro payments, confusing license agreements and rights managment that is unreliable. iTunes is making it easy for artists to make revenue off the internet but that is just not enough it seems for those greedy bastards.
"We make 9.1 cents off a song sale and that means a whole lot of pennies have to add up before it becomes a bunch of money," said Rick Carnes, president of the Songwriters' Guild of America. "Yesterday, I received a check for 2 cents. I'm not kidding.
Who in the hell has Rick's other 7.1 cents?
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Yes, but the problem is this... who is it that can add an amendment to the constitution? Damn, it's the same congress that can be bribed with corporate donations...
I quite like referring to it as arranging a meeting with "the board of education"
I'll give them a free 30 second preview of the body part they can kiss. (Limited time only, restrictions apply, one per customer.)
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
These slippery slopes to vices happen all the time. I know lots of folks who would never/rarely drive drunk, but drive stoned all the time. Folks are so inured to breaking the marijuana laws (understandably) that they think nothing of driving stoned, but breaking alcohol laws still has some legitimacy behind it.
Ridiculous laws lead to disdain and apathy toward the legal system. You're just inuring consumers to the idea of "infringement" by making such ludicrous demands.
I agree its an issue, but something as trivial as copyrights should not be part of the very foundation of our country. Its not THAT critical.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
...of the music industry bullshit. It's really frustrating that companies that depend on obsolescence to earn money can put up a nasty fight just because they have the means ($) for it.
It's not a performance if I ...
Play your CD
Hear your Song on the Radio
Look at your album jacket
It's a performance if:
You come to my house and play,
Hold a concert
Play on a street corner or a subway
Everyone in the chain of production needs to quit pretending that somehow, each time that CD is played, they have put in a personal appearance. // rant off
Performance as defined above is the method the bulk of working musicians actually make money. The RIAA just doesn't want to admit it.
What would be nice, is if somebody in the US could propose amending the Constitution to prevent private business from making profits by gaming Congress and regulators, and force them to make money by innovating and working hard instead.
Make laws to make regulatory capture by private business (especially those with failing business models) difficult or impossible, and make any law produced from private business' attempts to scam favourable laws, unconstitutional.
IANAL, but if such a thing could be done, then it would set a nice precedent to stop IP cartels and extortion outfits (RIAA, et al) from running amok elsewhere in the world too.
What amazes me is how many "groups" representing recording artists there are. It's ludicrous. First you've got to please RIAA, which claims it's doing it to protect the artists, then you've got the publishing companies that will nail your ass if you print any of the lyrics, then you've got ASCAP, which also represents the artists. No wonder the industry is sinking.
What's going to happen at the end of the day is that Apple and other online music services are going to make their own damned labels, woo over artists, maybe even start doing their own A&R, and either start selling their own stuff at a discount or start hiking the prices for all RIAA/ASCAP/who-the-fuck-ever, and when someone comes at them with a complaint about anti-competitive behavior, they can always point at demands like this "Hey, these guys effectively demanded we raise prices".
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Here's how I see this conversation going.
ASCAP> Give us lots of money!
Apple> You're already getting lots of money.
ASCAP> We want *more* money!
Apple> No.
ASCAP> We *demand* more money!
Apple> No.
ASCAP> If you don't give us more money, we'll take our music off your service!
Apple> No you won't, and we both know it.
ASCAP> WAAAAH GIVE US MORE MONEY
C'mon. If they wanted the extra fees so bad, they'd take their music off. Obviously they don't - they just want the government to step in when their own demands for money fell flat.
Why don't they make their own music distributor? Oh, that's right, because that takes work, and they don't want to do work. They just want free money.
I feel so sorry for them.
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Fear the penguin.
And the funny thing is that at least ASCAP is, or at least was historically, a good guy. They were created to ensure that artists didn't get ripped off by huge corporations. For example, Little Richard had his songs used in movies and commercials and TV shows without his permission and without compensation. A great example is Disney's Donald Duck dancing around singing about having "a girl named Daisy; you know she drives me crazy!"
So the ASCAP enforcement of performance payment went into place to ensure that companies like Disney, who made a mint on artist content, had to pay for it. The idea that they're using it now to try to get additional profit from people who are trying to decide whether to buy a song is just ridiculous.
The CB App. What's your 20?
I hear you - I really do - but if marijuana were legal and regulated, but driving stoned were prohibited, I bet we'd have more stoners but fewer stoned drivers on the street. Make respectable laws and people will respect them.
Yes, but the problem is this... who is it that can add an amendment to the constitution? Damn, it's the same congress that can be bribed with corporate donations...
Congress is made of men. (I'm speaking English here, let me run with it.) If they are not doing the will of the people, the people are not using enough boxes.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Shouldn't "ASCAP" just be renamed "ASSHATS"?
WTF, not RIAA this time, instead it's ASCAP> WTF are they smoking?! Why does everyone have to have their hands out? Hey when some twits ringtone goes off are you going to find a way to charge for that "performance" too?! Man at some point these "content" folks are just going to get right out of control! Oh wait..... too late!
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Sometimes when someone is hellbent on causing their own self-destruction, and they want your help, you should give it to them! So if ASCAP wants a law that requires anyone playing a 30-second sample of a song to pay a fee, then let them have it! All the law will do is hurt their sales, which is exactly what they deserve!
paintball
I call distinction without a difference. Publishers in ASCAP and record labels in RIAA tend to have the same parent companies.
As a performing artist, I know all too well how ASCAP and BMI work. They are actually artist organizations (they don't represent the labels) that pay the artist directly for "performances" of their music. Any public performance of an ASCAP or BMI artist's music is supposed to be supplemented by payment, usually in the form of a contract between the venue and ASCAP/BMI. The money the venue pays to the organization goes into a pot - and then this money is distributed to the artists. Nice idea, in theory. The problem begins when one looks at how these organizations pay the artists. It is almost entirely based upon radio airplay, so the system doesn't work particularly well except for the big players in the game.
ASCAP is well-known in cities for cracking-down on places like coffee houses that have live music - they send in what are essentially thugs to scare the venue into paying what works out to be "protection money" to keep ASCAP from suing them in the event someone plays an ASCAP-artist song during an open mic or live music event. Rather than trying to come off on a more positive marketing angle of trying to help out the music business and the artist, which ASCAP could easily create a pretty compelling argument for, they instead use strongarm legal language and intimidation. I know many coffee houses who simply won't allow live music due to a scary visit from ASCAP or BMI thugs.
Much like the RIAA, these "artist" companies, due to their plainly nasty way of dealing with their clients and the public, are simply in the business of making money off other people's work. This is why I am not a member of any of these organizations and work hard to support venues who don't cave-in to the pressures these organizations place on them. Original live music, owned by the performer - that cannot be touched by these cads.
What's going to happen at the end of the day is that Apple and other online music services are going to make their own damned labels
If Apple Inc. did that, the other Apple might complain.
This is why the music industry is dieing. Instead of doing fair, rational and sane business... they eat themselves alive as they search for every penny.
You know, really good stores... treat their customers well. They toss in free things, they treat the customer like a fair person.
Apple is the saving grace of the entire music industry. Its not just itunes, its iPods, iphones, and macs themselves!
The RIAA is going to after the one entity that is trying to bring progress to a dead industry built on greed, corruption and casting couch rape sessions?
Attn: RIAA. Free previews, are free advertisements and the RIAA are a bunch of stupid assholes.
Itunes does not need the RIAA. In fact, itunes can completely replace the RIAA all together. Why have record labels at all? Itunes could be your record label. Sell directly to consumers just like iphone Apps.
Who really needs you any more RIAA? No one. SO BE NICE, and enjoy what you have now, rather than squeeze yourself out of existence by your own greed.
Frankly... go ahead and do it, fuck yourself to oblivion. We'll just buy stuff from the itunes/disney label which will feature all of the artists you lost.
Fuck these people. Damn dirty, no-good rotten, greedy, lifeless, soulless, talentless hack job bastards.
Even the Wallstreet/Banker CEO pricks must stand in awe and wonder on how this bunch of pricks can make an extra dollar.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could get the entire country or even better world to not buy any music for a few days in protest of the RIAA / ASCAP / Record Labels BS NAZI tactics? Any other business that pulled this BS would be out of business in a second. Imagine walking into a car showroom and them saying "Ok, that'll be $20 to take a testdrive" or a clothing store to say "That'll be $2 to try that on"?
It would be amazing if not only Apple removed the 30-second song clips from those artists but, instead, started to charge them for the privilege of having a song preview.
That would be amazing. Bonus points if they were really naughty and only charged those artists affiliated to this entity - and we all know Apple is perfectly able to directly sabotage anyone who gets in their way (i.e. Palm Pre syncing with iTunes).
It IS greed. There are successful businesses, and then there are businesses who care about naught but lining their and their shareholders' pockets with money. Time, time, time, and time again, history has shown that you can run a business that people like and make money, or you can be a greedy monster and make money. It works for some time, but will those businesses be around in 100 years? If you go around the world and look at some of the companies that HAVE been around for over a century (a lot of food companies have), you'll find that the workers there are typically treated well and are very happy.
It's the same as the old king analogy. As a king, you can rule with kindness or you can rule by fear. By kindness and you can have everything you want (and everything your prosperous country can produce) and will be remembered forever. By fear and you can have everything (only what your pitiful starving country can give you) and will be forgotten over the centuries. For some reason, a lot of leaders tend to choose the latter.
Unlike what seems like everyone who has posted a comment on this story thus far, I am a member of ASCAP. In fact, I'm a member both as an individual artist, and as a publisher (my publishing company represents exactly one artist - me). ASCAP stands for "American Society of Composers, Artists, and Producers". It charges no membership fees, but you must have at least one published song to be eligible for membership. The directors are elected from within the membership's ranks.
The problem with ASCAP is that its executives all have intimate ties to the legacy recording industry, and that they're pretty much totally unresponsive to input from those of us who don't have such ties. In fact, as far as I can tell, there is no useful mechanism for ordinary members, like me, to affect ASCAP policymaking in any way, shape, or form. Our only power is to vote the bastards out of office - and the problem there is that, as with many other nominally non-profit organizations (I know that seems counterintuitive, but, in fact, ASCAP is chartered as a non-profit organization, which supports itself by charging its members a modest fee for collecting performance royalties on their behalf - a royalty on a royalty, if you will - and, if you are owed no royalties, you pay no fees), elections are essentially popularity contests. "Oh, I recognize that name!" is about as deeply as most ASCAP members think about who they vote for. So the board of directors is mostly dominated by producers, rather than songwriters, and the majority of them are themselves relics of a bygone era, who are, for the most part, digital dimwits, who think of the Internet as the vacuum cleaner that's sucking up all the income from the CDs that aren't selling any more.
The thing is that, from a songwriter's perspective, what ASCAP is chartered to do is essential to making a living. Not all successful songwriters are members of touring bands. Many of us aren't even (or are barely even) recording artists. Instead, there is a substantial population of members who write songs for other people to record, or write soundtrack music (i.e. - not the hits the TV studios license as theme songs, or background music, but the incidental music that sets the mood, or heightens the tension - music that most viewers don't consciously notice, because that's not its function, but that they would definitely miss, if it wasn't there), or commercial jingles, or even music for videogames. Those members of ASCAP need licensing income in order to pay the mortgage and buy groceries. Few of them are millionaires.
So, again, what ASCAP does (or, at least, what it's supposed to do) is not inherently evil. The problem is that its executive ranks are filled with unimaginitive dinosaurs. They're not focused on PR, or on pumping up members' sales numbers, because that's not their charter. Their charter is simple and straightforward: to see that their members get paid every time their recordings are performed in public. That those executives are shortsighted enough to try to squeeze Apple (or any other company) for royalties on 30-second samples does not invalidate the legitimacy of writers needing to get paid for their work, just as coders get paid for theirs. The difference is that coders tend to do "works for hire", so their employers own the code they write, whereas almost all ASCAP members are self-employed. If we don't get royalties, we starve.
Finally, note that Apple is making a pile of money on iTunes. Steve Jobs is not a selfless hero. He's a businessman who has developed a distribution system for music that insures that songwriters receive mechanical royalties (which is where that 9.1 cents comes in) on the sale of individual songs. Mechanical royalties are different from performance royalties. They are paid to songwriters when songs they have written are first sold to individual buyers - essentially, a one-time payment to the writer(s) on each song you, as consumers, purchase, whether in CD format, or as a digital download. ASCAP has nothing to do with colle
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