Taking Free Software To the Streets

An anonymous reader writes "It's that time of year again; the nights are drawing in, the leaves are beginning to turn, and literally hundreds of teams of dedicated F/OSS enthusiasts from around the world are preparing to hit the streets in celebration of Software Freedom Day 2009. In an effort to increase awareness of free and open source software among the general public, SFD teams will be standing around town centers and shopping malls, holding talks at schools and universities, giving demonstrations and handing out Linux and FOSS collections for Windows on CD. With money being tight and paranoia about malware and viruses at an all-time high, the time is right to help consumers switch to the myriad of quality open source applications available. If you would like to check for an SFD team in your area and consider attending, be it to help out or simply learn more about free software for yourself, there's an interactive map to help you find your way."

Comments

"Go away"

[Anonymous Coward]

"Go away" is my reaction whenever someone on the street wants to give me something free - a religious booklet, a pro-something leaflet, a "work from home" job offer printed out on an inkjet...

On a sidenote, this would be a perfect opportunity to spread malware. Just pretend you're one of those guys and hand over CDs with some crap that will infect the computer.

Re:"Go away"

[Yvan256]

On a sidenote, this would be a perfect opportunity to spread malware. Just pretend you're one of those guys and hand over CDs with some crap that will infect the computer.

I thought giving away copies of Windows ME was illegal?

Re:"Go away"

[Anonymous Coward]

Your terrible sense of humor should be illegal. It's goddamn 2009, and you're making jokes about windows ME. Go back to compiling Gentoo or something.

Re:"Go away"

[TheCowSaysMooNotBoo]

Same here. I will ignore you and if you insist on bothering me I will yell.

Re:"Go away"

[Yvan256]

If I had only said "Windows" then I would have been modded troll by Microsoft fanboys. But even those guys know that Windows ME sucked.

Re:"Go away"

[maxume]

For extra points, yell "I DON'T KNOW YOU!" and "GIVE ME BACK MY PURSE!"

Re:"Go away"

[Anonymous Coward]

You can now officially say Vista. Only the most vicious M$ astroturfers would blame you.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/351652/microsoft-admits-vista-was-a-less-good-product

Re:"Go away"

[TheCowSaysMooNotBoo]

I think me yelling "give me back my purse" would get met lots of weird looks :)

I might start yelling I'm a vegetarian and that I'm better than the guy or girl tho. Works with greenpeace activists.

Re:"Go away"

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming you were alluding to King of the Hill, the quote is:

"I don't know you! That's my purse!" *kick to the groin*

Go, Bobby Hill!

Re:"Go away"

[maxume]

Yeah, that's right. My bad on getting the quote wrong. Stupid memory.

Re:"Go away"

[Statecraftsman]

Your reaction is not universal. And handing out a leaflet is done because it is a method of getting a message to many people cheaply. Yes, many will throw such a leaflet away or not look at it, but some will. So if you look at it from a cost-per-impression basis it's quite effective. What alternative do you propose?

Re:"Go away"

[Hurricane78]

I'd recommend changing your reaction to "you're doing it wrong!".

Because the trick is not, to come to you. The trick is, to make you come to them, and offer something so great, that you'll beg to get it. ^^

I recommend putting up a large projection of Compiz an action, giant "Never get Viruses again!" banners, etc.
Make them drool and wish to throw away their Windows.
And give away the Linux DVDs in a "Shop price: $xxx" "Get a free copy! Only today!" booth.
Play music! Add some lights! (But in a way that also drags older people there.)
Offer tasty food that you can smell on the whole street, drinks, sexy babes/men on two elevated platforms, friendly people (to fulfill our basic needs/interests).
Sell merchandising that people can afford to buy just out of impulse and for fun! Stickers, T-Shirts, things you can't get anywhere else.
And add a Linux DVD / open source software DVD to every sale of anything on that booth. Let the sexy people throw the DVDs into the people.
And do it in a place and at a time, where there are enough people to make it work. If nessecary, work out a deal with a local shopping mall, or something similar.

That will give you hype and interest! ^^
You will have 40 year old hockey moms talk to all their friends about that really cute new "Linux" (used as if it were a version of Windows), that they caught, when they were surprised by that hot guy looking at her. She will put the DVD in, it will start, looking really fancy. And when it runs, it throws the full power of beauty and power at them! So that even if they don't understand a thing of it, they will want to learn to have that too.

Unrealistic? Well, the most common reaction I get from girls, when I show them my Linux desktop is: "I want that too! Can you put that on my computer?". QED. ^^

Re:"Go away"

[iceco2]

It seems uneconomic to spread malware by handing out CDs
thankfully in the malware market a single infected computer is still worth less then
the price of printing and handing out a CD.

Re:"Go away"

[petrus4]

"Go away" is my reaction whenever someone on the street wants to give me something free - a religious booklet, a pro-something leaflet, a "work from home" job offer printed out on an inkjet...

Exactly the point. We say, "Go away," when the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, or members of any other cult show up at our door.

Is anyone noticing the similarity in tactics that are being used here, between the FSF, and those other organisations, which the FSF's drones probably don't mind acknowledging as cults? ;)

Re:"Go away"

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, certainly, malware is such hard work to spread at the moment, hardly anyone falls for those adverts or free healthcheck software thesedays, sending people out to hand CDs to passers by would certainly be a more effective method than trying to exploit the stupidity of people on the internet or the hardened operating systems they use.

I'm glad you cope so well with social interaction, "Go away" is certainly better than i'd anticipate, I was rather expecting cries of "Don't touch me! Just Don't! I've got a knife!... GET BACK!!!... But officer, he was trying to influence my thoughts, I was only defending my mind from his twisted propaganda and brainwashing..."

Re:"Go away"

[smoker2]

This is quite true, and I agree. But this time it's not a con. I still wouldn't do it though. People come to free software, or else they do without. But you know zealots ...

Re:"Go away"

[bertoelcon]

This is the most interesting idea I have ever heard to spread Linux and it sounds like it would work.

Someone mod this up

Re:"Go away"

[mdwh2]

But showing up at someone's door isn't the same as giving stuff out in the street. And the criticism is also about disputing the claims that Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses etc make.

If you're going to claim that anyone advertising anything is as bad as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses turning up at your door, then perhaps you should criticise companies (including software companies) that spend millions on shoving adverts everywhere, rather than a handful of volunteers in the street?

Re:"Go away"

[Anonymous Coward]

Stranger danger! Stranger danger!

Re:"Go away"

[Anonymous Coward]

M$ did it by the time Win ME arrived. Maybe you're too youg to remember. So go to sleep and come back when you're a grown person.

Re:"Go away"

[Anonymous Coward]

Then when those girls find out how nonsensical Linux is, they will want Windows back on their computers. Do you honestly think they would want to learn about Linux?

Re:"Go away"

[J.Y.Kelly]

I was in a team handing out CDs in the UK and we spent the morning honing our approach tactics to not scare people off. Some people will never stop for someone in a bright green t-shirt handing out CDs, but plenty of others could be persuaded.

What we found was:

* "Have some free software" = FAIL

You can just see the alarm bells going off in their heads, and frankly I don't blame them.

* Hide the CDs under a leaflet!

If you try to give people a CD they often blank you. If you give them a leaflet wrapped around the CDs they'll more often take it. Once they had it in their hand then they usually stop to ask what all this other stuff is.

* Talk about software freedom day first

Don't say you're handing out CDs, say you're promoting an international event - then let them have the discs.

* Hold a balloon.

Don't ask me why, but I got much higher take up from people when holding a balloon when handing out CDs. Maybe I was less threatning that way? We also found that having a load of balloons on the stall brought kids over and you could talk to their parents whilst they were there.

Things we plan to do next year.

1) Have more software for Macs. Maybe we hit an unusual demographic but we had lots of Mac users stop and talk to us and neither of the discs we had (OpenDisk and Ubuntu live CD) would work in a Mac. We'll add freeSmug next year.

2) Helium balloons and free sweets. Brings families over without any further sales pitch being required.

3) Free internet access. Not sure if we can arrange this but a big sign offering free internet access and a load of laptops with 3G dongles running linux. Would attract people over and let them try linux out at the same time.

I've done these events for the last three years and we've had a good reaction from the public each year. I'd stronly encourage people to get involved next year as it's a great way to talk to people about why they might want to use free software and what's available.

Re:"Go away"

[Anonymous Coward]

"Let the sexy people throw the DVDs into the people."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMNExagZVrc

Been there done that, didn't work.

TLAPD

[pushing-robot]

It's purely coincidental that Software Freedom Day happens to also be Talk Like a Pirate Day... Right?

Re:TLAPD

[Art Acevedo]

It's also coincidental that when nerds stand around handing out Linux CDs, this is what the general population see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le_Y3PIob9E

Re:TLAPD

[maxume]

May the socially ostracized unite!

Re:TLAPD

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet somehow there aren't almost 500 groups registered to Talk Like a Pirate...there must be something more to this.

Re:TLAPD

[Anonymous Coward]

May the socially ostracized unite!

For the convenience of being rounded up easily?

Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[Anonymous Coward]

Standing around town centres like homeless winos. That's the problem with FOSS advocates, they keep coming up with these wacky ideas, and each time they put them into action the public sees.... err, a wacky idea, associated with FOSS.

If you want to guarantee that the public forever sees FOSS as a fringe thing unworthy of the consideration of normal people then carry on. If you want to really promote FOSS set up a business based on FOSS and make it work and grow.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[Anonymous Coward]

Standing around town centres like homeless winos. That's the problem with FOSS advocates, they keep coming up with these wacky ideas, and each time they put them into action the public sees.... err, a wacky idea, associated with FOSS.

If you want to guarantee that the public forever sees FOSS as a fringe thing unworthy of the consideration of normal people then carry on. If you want to really promote FOSS set up a business based on FOSS and make it work and grow.

Never heard of Red Hat, Novell, Canonical, etc?

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[Scholasticus]

I wouldn't be too worried about this effect. This isn't going to show up on the radars of most people even as much as all those "Save Farscape" flyers which were all over the place when that show got cancelled. "Joe Public" (a.k.a. Joe Sixpack, a.k.a. Aunt Milly) doesn't even know enough about F/OSS to give a rat's. If F/OSS is ever going to become widely adopted by home users, it will be the same way Windows was - because that was what came installed on the computers people were buying at the time. Netbooks may help with this. Handing out CDs on street corners almost certainly won't.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[joaommp]

I kind of agree with the initiatives in the schools, but if they start doing parades, they would better spend their time (and money) improving the quality and features of the software instead of doing parades which gather little attention. These events won't bring them closer to actually competing with commercial giants. They should do stuff like Google Summer of Code or something like that. Those I believe they it make things go forward because during a few days, people are supposed to be intensely involved into a project. Like pidgin, for instance. I love GSC because every summer, pidgin get's stabler and more features.

Parades kind of reminds me the "gay pride parades" which end up making them look more ridiculous. The alternative would be mardi grass, but somehow I can't/won't/don't wan't to imagine a topless RMS with beads licking Linus' nipples.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[westlake]

Standing around town centres like homeless winos. That's the problem with FOSS advocates, they keep coming up with these wacky ideas...

It doesn't get any better than this:

The scene is the Boston Common in late August.

The event the launch of FSF's "Windows 7 Sins" campaign.

Special Guest Appearance by Ron Stoppable as Team Mascot. Free Software Foundation - Windows 7 Sins

You can expect much of the time - and much of the screen - to given over to a lecture by a paunchy - balding - middle-aged geek.

540 views.

It is quite possible for a Win 7 promotional video to net two million viewers. Windows 7

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[Anonymous Coward]

Standing around town centres like homeless winos.

Buddhists tried to emulate Buddha, Christians tried to emulate Jesus, freetards are trying to emulate RMS. So far they are meeting limited success, but a few more years without bathing and they will reach the holy land where 14 virgin gnus are awaiting each of them.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[Anonymous Coward]

I think far more interesting is the fact that the campaign at its basis is supposed to be against all closed-up software, including e.g. OS X. If you check that video, you'll even see them throwing away 'OS X' boxes. But it's not really mentioned.. not in the video, not in the website, and absolutely not in the campaign name.

Apparently they know better than to try and make their point using a highly popular target, which would absolutely result in backlash, and try to go for the one everybody loves to hate instead.

Unfortunately targeting either under the campaign is pointless.. people, in general, don't love OS X because it's closed-up any more than they hate Windows because it's closed-up. They love OS X because it's nice and shiny and 'just works' (for the most part), and hate Windows because it's far from shiny and is still fraught with problems left and right. Whether that is fact (probably) or popular opinion propagated by the masses (certainly partially) doesn't even matter.

Before they can make it clear why some things are bad, they'll have to get people to care about those things first.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[orasio]

Again, there are no FOSS advocates.
There are open source advocates, and free software advocates.
Open source advocates are the ones who care about software, and how open source is supposed to bring us lots of technical advantages.
Free software advocates, like me, are the wackier ones, that tell you that Google is taking your freedom away and that you should stay away from proprietary software if you want your kids to be free.
The first group are the ones that build companies like Redhat, and the ones that helped IBM and Sun change towards open source.
People who care about free software don't have a lot to gain from your approach. In my case, I believe free software advocates should start working more in politics and less in the streets, but this kind of event is one of the things that can be done to try and get people to focus on freedom related to software.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[ClosedSource]

"Never heard of Red Hat, Novell, Canonical, etc?"

Sure, are they going to hand out CDs too?

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[ClosedSource]

I noticed that you didn't say the virgins were girls.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[Anonymous Coward]

Maximizing code reuse

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[koick]

You can be sure the "normal people" walking around malls haven't. Hell, you'd be lucky if they can name the vice president.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[multisync]

That's the problem with FOSS advocates, they keep coming up with these wacky ideas, and each time they put them into action the public sees.... err, a wacky idea, associated with FOSS.

Yeah, those wacky FOSS advocates and their wacky ideas to promote the projects they believe in.

Lord knows, Microsoft would never engage in something as shameless as encouraging their supporters to host parties in their communities and generally evangelize Windows 7 to non-converts.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[HitoGuy]

Good God, man! Now I can't stop imagining it... and I've lost my will to live!

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[Anonymous Coward]

Open source advocates are actually practical. Free software advocates are actually political.

A good way to put it is this:

Open source is to vegetarianism what free software is to veganism. They're closely related, but one is much more annoying and dimwitted than the other, and one is capable of advocating their "cause" without calling those who aren't "with them" evil.

Guess which is which.

Sadly, I think the FSF is being left behind by other organizations of its ilk, including the OSI. This is part of why Stallman stopped actually working on actually making the real GNU (And instead trying to make Linux "his" creation with the GNU/Linux naming bullshit.) and more time talking, whining, threatening, coercing, and speaking to people about free software.

By the way, do you actually know the history of the term "open source?" It wasn't created as a way to differentiate between "open source" and "free software" but actually to be an alternate term for "free software" to combat people mistaking libre for gratis. It was Richard Stallman who, when he saw he was being outdone by someone actually better than him, decided to split the hair that needed no splitting. This is how rms reacts whenever he's surpassed or threatened by something, he either directly attacks the character of the thing (Like he did the OSI.) or he tries to subvert it in a more sneaky way to make it look like he's the whole reason of it being, and that he created it, like he does with Linux. Richard Stallman can't really tolerate the idea of him NOT being the only FOSS figurehead. He wants people to practically worship him as the One of Free Software is what it is.

I also noticed that there is a striking resemblance to the hero worship of rms to Steve Jobs. There's almost as much a Cult of Richard Stallman as there is a Cult of Steve Jobs.

And frankly I think rms is now doing nothing but hurt the image of Free/Open Source Software with stunts like this.

I prefer siding with DOERS (Linus Torvalds or Theo de Raadt) than PREACHERS (Richard Stallman).

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[Anonymous Coward]

It is good to see that you hold yourself to the high standards of Microsofts practices.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[westlake]

If you check that video, you'll even see them throwing away 'OS X' boxes.

There isn't a "Windows 7" box to throw.

They love OS X because it's nice and shiny and 'just works' and hate Windows because it's far from shiny and is still fraught with problems left and right. Whether that is fact or popular opinion propagated by the masses (certainly partially) doesn't even matter.

But it isn't being propagated by the masses.

Win XP wiped the floor with OEM Linux in the netbook sector. You didn't need to do much more than slap the Windows logo on your product to make the sale.

Vista has about a 20% share of the client desktop. That has to be consumer based and it represents a significant investment in new and more powerful hardware.

The Win 7 RC 1%.

These numbers look very good when compared to OSX, which is also essentially a high-end consumer product - a discretionary purchase.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[Anonymous Coward]

So you think the better approach would be to try to keep it a secret?

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[mdwh2]

Yes that's why everyone is using OS X and not Windows. Oh wait - sales figures suggest otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying their stategy for adverising open source is good or not, but please let's not the RDF confuse the matter. The validity of their argument against closed source solutions in general - be it from a freedom point of view, or lower cost - is not affected by a niche of users preferring OS X to Windows.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[mdwh2]

It doesn't get any better than this:

You mean, it doesn't get any better than you picking the most popular from one, and biasedly comparing to the least popular from another? Here, let me try:

Novel Linux commercial - half a million.

IMB Linux commercial - 670,000.

And remember the comparison was open to closed source, not Linux versus Windows, so:

video on Google Chrome - over a million.

And let's compare that to:

Windows 7 Security Overview - 15 views. Including me.

Now sure yes, I can't find something beating 2 million - given that Microsoft are the largest software company in the world, by far, that's hardly surprising. But your biased comparison is misleading and unfair. Even a trivial search receives large numbers of videos about open source software, easily hitting several 10,000s and 100,000s.

And if you meant to say how companies can get higher view counts than individuals - well firstly, that's hardly surprising, secondly, try this Windows and Linux video at 5.6 million views.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[westlake]

You mean, it doesn't get any better than you picking the most popular from one, and biasedly comparing to the least popular from another?

For more on "Windows 7 Sins:" FSF Attacks Windows 7's Sins Campaign

The Boston Common was FSF's launch pad - and a squirrel on the grass would have drawn a bigger crowd.

The link I provided simply searches YouTube for "Windows 7."

It doesn't prove - and isn't meant to prove - anything about "open source."

But it does have something to say about the visibility and effectiveness of the FSF and "Windows 7 Sins."

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[Anonymous Coward]

There are some already starting up.

http://parkit.dyndns.org

A local thing.

Re:Keep it wacky, say goodbye to Joe public

[skiman1979]

If mobs of FOSS people ran around malls handing out Linux CDs, "Joe Public" would likely avoid them like the plague, but if these same CDs showed up in "Joe's" mailbox, he may be more willing to check it out... maybe. It seemed to work for America Online. AOL also had advertisements going on TV/radio, so at least "Joe" knew somewhat what AOL was for when he saw the CD in the mail.

So instead of running around in public trying to shove FOSS software down people's throats, the community could come up with some TV/radio ads and get them aired. Some of this has already been done, but not too widespread yet. Get the public hearing about this "Linux" thing, and then brochures show up in the mail with a CD included.

Malware

[DeadPixels]

With paranoia about malware and viruses at an all-time high, I certainly wouldn't run a CD a stranger on the street gave to me.

Re:Malware

[Statecraftsman]

The beauty of free software is you don't have to. You can spend about 10 minutes searching the internet to learn enough to want to try something out. Or you might learn that you already have free software on your system.

Re:Malware

[multisync]

With paranoia about malware and viruses at an all-time high, I certainly wouldn't run a CD a stranger on the street gave to me.

Agreed. I think a better approach would be to have laptops set up running Ubuntu or whatever and let people try it out there in the mall or wherever. Rather than handing out CDs, give them something with your URL on it. Try to sign them up and get them to come to a meeting, if you have a local user's group. If not, you can point them at an online user's group and suggest they download a liveCD from them.

I can remember the local LUG holding InstallFests, back when partitioning your drive or even getting Xwindows to load was a more daunting task. You'd have to already be pretty interested in running Linux to haul your pc to a gymnasium somewhere, but these days it's easier for people to try free and open source software. Even directing users to simple things like Firefox, or suggesting OpenOffice.org to a user who doesn't like Office 2007 is a way of helping people ease in to it. You could also show them Linux pre-installed on a netbook.

But handing out discs to strangers is a bad idea. We should encourage people to not execute code on their computers unless they are sure of the source.

Re:Malware

[mdwh2]

How stupid of AOL! If only you had been around to tell them how pointless their stategy was, they would have saved wasting all those disks and CDs they gave away. Heaven knows how they managed to get millions of customers, because obviously everyone behaves just like you do.

Clearly no one else would ever dare run a piece of software they don't trust. That's why viruses are never effective.

By POPULAR DEMAND I play you

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't know me but I'm your brother
I was raised here in this living hell
You don't know my kind in your world
Fairly soon the time will tell
You...telling me the things you're gonna do for me
I ain't blind and I don't like what I think I see

Takin' it to the streets (takin' it to the streets)
Takin' it to the streets (no more need for runnin')
Takin' it to the streets (Oh, oh-oh, nah, nah)

Take this message to my brother
You will find him...everywhere
Wherever people live together
Tied in poverty's despair
Are you...telling me the things you're gonna do for me
I ain't blind and I don't like what I think I see

Takin' it to the streets (takin' it to the streets)
Takin' it to the streets (no more need for runnin')
Takin' it to the streets (takin it to the streets)
Takin' it to the (BREAK)

Are you...telling me the things you're gonna do for me (yeah, hah)
I ain't blind and I don't like what I think I see

Re:By POPULAR DEMAND I play you

[petrus4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tfyLbin9gs

Here's the tune I play myself at times, when thinking about the FSF.

Will not work

[shadowblaster]

Most people probably won't know what to do with it anyway and it will end up in the bin. The average person will need help installing and configuring linux.

Even if they try installing it they will end up being frustrated for not being able to get things to work. They will end up scarred by the experience and fall back to Windows.

Much better to spend their efforts educating students at universities or school. Even better to get universities and schools to convert to FOSS. This way children are forced to learn and work with FOSS. When they grow up they would be able to use the experience to promote FOSS at home/work.

Re:Will not work

[AceofSpades19]

Most people probably won't know what to do with it anyway and it will end up in the bin. The average person will need help installing and configuring anything.

Fixed it for you

Re:Will not work

[Anonymous Coward]

CD's will be available to be handled out. Of course only to those who will request one. People will come aboard for coriousity, or for more information. Not the other way arround.

Why not a free map for Software Freedom Day?

[Anonymous Coward]

A perfectly fine alternative for the map on the Software Freedom Day site, and one which in the same spirit, is OpenStreetMap. Why stick with a proprietary map, when a free (in both senses of the word) map is available? Free Software? Free Map!

Time Bandits

[malevolentjelly]

So, basically, you're going to take to the streets dead set on destroying peoples' data and wasting their time? Most people have a computing solution that works for them. If they want free software, chances are they will seek it out.

For most people, this whole operation is going to be abstract, confusing, and really unfortunate if they make the mistake of putting the software onto their machines.

Remember: all that silly documentation and those help manuals were written for most users. They require that sort of thing. Most open source solutions are terribly documented It's software where you need to *just know* what's going or hit the forums or wikis. That's unacceptable. If software like OpenOffice was any good whatsoever, companies would brand it and sell the media in stores.

Adapting to a whole new software ecosystem is difficult. It's a terrible time sink that most people don't really have the social motivation for. What's so great about free software? It's free? Is Open Office better then MS Office? No? Is GIMP better than Photoshop or PSP or anything? No? Is Linux easier to use than OEM Windows or Mac? Absolutely not? Wait, why do I care about this again? What if I don't have a fanatical hatred of all things proprietary? What if I am not a freetard, but a productive member of society who needs to use the computer as a tool and not a time wasting obsession? What if I am not into "fighting the power" where "the power" is one of two large software companies that provide a framework to make my home computer usable? What if my computer were like a coffee maker for me, but for email and typing documents and browsing the web?

In short, anyone idealistic enough to run free software is already doing so.

Re:Time Bandits

[icebraining]

If XP was free software, people wouldn't be forced to upgrade their OS, they could just download a patch from a third party instead of being held hostage by Microsoft.

Re:Time Bandits

[malevolentjelly]

How is this relevant to a casual home user? Linux has a bevvy of remote vulnerabilities, and yet you as a home user will never be affected by them because nobody wants your documents, your anti-microsoft blog posts, or your porn.

If someone wanted to fire specially crafted TCP packets to take down your mom's computer, then that's their prerogative. Said person could also just throw a brick through her window or something.

Re:Time Bandits

[howlingfrog]

destroying people's data

When you install Ubuntu into a dual-boot situation, it asks if you want it to import your entire My Documents folder.

Most open source solutions are terribly documented...you need to...hit the forums or wikis.

To an extent, I agree with you, but you're overstating your case a bit. I'm certainly not happy with the sorry state of F/OSS documentation, but your implication that proprietary software is any better is nonsense. The software written by the companies Joe Sixpack knows the names of--that is, Microsoft, Apple, and Adobe--tends to have built-in help systems. Because those companies can afford to hire someone to write it. The software written by everyone else, proprietary or open source, has half-assed or nonexistant built-in help. Even those three big companies aren't great at it. Their help systems don't answer the questions users actually have, they answer the questions they think users are going to have. The amount of overlap varies wildly from app to app--I find Excel's help system to be extremely useful, and Word's to be a waste of RAM, personally. The wiki approach to documentation is, by definition, a closer match to what users actually need, and part of the point of open source is that the original authors are not the only ones competent to write documentation. The fact that most people's first instinct is to look for a drop-down help menu is simply because that's what they're used to. It doesn't mean it's a better way to do it.

What's so great about free software? It's free? Is Open Office better then MS Office? No? Is GIMP better than Photoshop or PSP or anything? No?

For most end-user applications, the absolute best in the industry is usually proprietary. That's true. The competing free software tends to do about 80% of what the proprietary solution does. But only the 1% of users who use that particular application at a professional level ever need, or, sometimes, are even capable of understanding, the other 20%. The differences between OO.o Word Processor and MS Word are the things that you don't need unless you're a professional writer/editor/publisher. The differences between OO.o Spreadsheet and MS Excel are the things you don't need unless you're an MBA. The differences between GIMP and Photoshop are the things you don't need unless you're an artist. A lot of people will need the proprietary application in one or two domains, but would never notice the difference anywhere else. But they're paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars for the proprietary solution anyway.

And you're conveniently ignoring all the FOSS that's simply better: Firefox, PostgreSQL, Apache, R, Pidgin, any of a dozen free PDF viewers, etc.

Is Linux easier to use than Windows or Mac...for email and typing documents and browsing the web?

Absolutely. You're confusing familiarity with simplicity. If you're already familiar with Windows, using it will be quite a bit easier than learning a new tool. For true beginners, I'd say that Mac is the easiest, Ubuntu is fairly close, and Windows is a total nightmare. There's some subjectivity there, but I'd bet that no-one who disagrees has ever been the friend/relative everyone uses for free tech support.

anyone idealistic enough to run free software is already doing so

I disagree with this more strongly than anything else you said. The political things we say about open software and open file formats are strongly compatible with a wide range of leftist and libertarian movements, especially anticorporatism. I have on several occasions talked people with anti-Walmart bumper stickers into switching to Linux.

Re:Time Bandits

[orasio]

"terrible documented"

Well, that is just a lie.
Of course, documentation is not that important, but free software is better documented than proprietary software.
And of course, its documentation is complete, while proprietary software producers only document what they think you need, it's easy to reach a point where there is no more data to fix your problem.
And then there is tech support, I have worked with proprietary tech support. They are great at reading manuals and troubleshooting guides aloud. In 15 years working with both proprietary and free software, only in free software I can get a technical person to help me with my issues. Proprietary support under millions of dollars is just crap.

This post was about free software. If you don't care about free software, it's your problem. Proprietary software affects you a lot more than your coffee maker. At least it's somewhat like environmental issues. Using proprietary software does harm yourself and everybody, both by giving away your freedom, and by acting against technological advancement. Just ignoring it is not going to make it go away. Of course, much like environmental issues, there are wacky ways to create conscience, and there are reasonable ways to do it, but it doesn't mean it's OK that people don't care.

Re:Time Bandits

[orasio]

Not upgrading vs. upgrading: Good.
Remote vulnerabilities are exploited to create bot nets, and casual home users are the most likely to fall for that kind of thing. Having your computer hijacked means you need a reinstall.
Remote vulnerabilities: Bad.

So, having a chance of diminishing the chance of having to reinstall due to a hijacking, without having to upgrade is a good way to save time and/or money.

Re:Time Bandits

[malevolentjelly]

When you install Ubuntu into a dual-boot situation, it asks if you want it to import your entire My Documents folder.

You have to consider that data extends beyond merely the sort you'd store in My Documents. Not all applications follow that proper behavior, beside the fact that a user's application set could be considered part of their data. Many users identify their applications by name, even, not even description or type. It would be safe to say that a user would require a well-written guide with a series of alternatives for popular applications easily available for then. Perhaps Add/Remove Programs should alias keywords connected to applications that its F/OSS options are alternatives to-- if it doesn't already.

To an extent, I agree with you, but you're overstating your case a bit. I'm certainly not happy with the sorry state of F/OSS documentation, but your implication that proprietary software is any better is nonsense. The software written by the companies Joe Sixpack knows the names of--that is, Microsoft, Apple, and Adobe--tends to have built-in help systems. Because those companies can afford to hire someone to write it. The software written by everyone else, proprietary or open source, has half-assed or nonexistant built-in help. Even those three big companies aren't great at it. Their help systems don't answer the questions users actually have, they answer the questions they think users are going to have. The amount of overlap varies wildly from app to app--I find Excel's help system to be extremely useful, and Word's to be a waste of RAM, personally. The wiki approach to documentation is, by definition, a closer match to what users actually need, and part of the point of open source is that the original authors are not the only ones competent to write documentation. The fact that most people's first instinct is to look for a drop-down help menu is simply because that's what they're used to. It doesn't mean it's a better way to do it.

I don't often utilize documentation, but whenever I do it's a pretty quick process. Apple is probably right in making things such that no documentation should be needed, but I don't think the wiki is a strong case against professional documentation. The wiki's in ubuntu should be fully integrated into the help system per application-- the wiki-ized help system should link you up contextually when you try to get help on a certain function. It should be safe to assume internet connectivity at this point.

For most end-user applications, the absolute best in the industry is usually proprietary. That's true. The competing free software tends to do about 80% of what the proprietary solution does. But only the 1% of users who use that particular application at a professional level ever need, or, sometimes, are even capable of understanding, the other 20%. The differences between OO.o Word Processor and MS Word are the things that you don't need unless you're a professional writer/editor/publisher. The differences between OO.o Spreadsheet and MS Excel are the things you don't need unless you're an MBA. The differences between GIMP and Photoshop are the things you don't need unless you're an artist. A lot of people will need the proprietary application in one or two domains, but would never notice the difference anywhere else. But they're paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars for the proprietary solution anyway.

I disagree whole-heartedly. The commercial applications have far more accessible functionality. Microsoft Word 2007, for instance, makes it extremely easy to create a well-formatted and attractive document-- as does Pages. It's hard to make an ugly presentation with Keynote. However, no matter how hard I've tried, I've never been able to make an attractive looking document in OpenOffice- and I used openoffice for years. Its formatting is always just a bit ugly, a bit awkward, and its default content is always a bit lacking. Anything pushed out of the software ju

Re:Time Bandits

[malevolentjelly]

This post was about free software. If you don't care about free software, it's your problem. Proprietary software affects you a lot more than your coffee maker. At least it's somewhat like environmental issues. Using proprietary software does harm yourself and everybody, both by giving away your freedom, and by acting against technological advancement. Just ignoring it is not going to make it go away. Of course, much like environmental issues, there are wacky ways to create conscience, and there are reasonable ways to do it, but it doesn't mean it's OK that people don't care.

Computers are just tools. Besides tools, they are consumer products. This culture war is simply absurd-- Linux should have to compete as a consumer product along with everything else. It can have its market share when it's usable. Not before then.

Re:Time Bandits

[malevolentjelly]

This isn't the sort of attack that would form a botnet.

The time you would waste learning Unix would be so excessive that even a directed assault on your home machine by a team of chinese hackers (which is likely what would exploit this sort of case) resulting in reinstall would cost less time.

Time is the only real valuable resource.

Re:Time Bandits

[buchner.johannes]

If they want free software, chances are they will seek it out.

I think many people don't know about that part of software landscape, and that it works for many people.

Otherwise, an interesting point of view.

Re:Time Bandits

[petrus4]

Using proprietary software does harm yourself and everybody, both by giving away your freedom, and by acting against technological advancement. Just ignoring it is not going to make it go away. Of course, much like environmental issues, there are wacky ways to create conscience, and there are reasonable ways to do it, but it doesn't mean it's OK that people don't care.

No. You can't compare Stallman's need for new drones with the need to protect/reclaim the environment. The simple reason why is because, unlike anything which the FSF cares about, the environment is something that actually does matter, to people who aren't simply drinking cultic Kool-Aid.

This is easily demonstrated as fact, when we realise that FOSS survives more despite the FSF, than because of it.

- The FSF generates no code now, at all. Cygnus/Red Hat do that, and have for some time.
- Non-copyleft licenses, such as the MIT/BSD license, have survived without copyleft, or without any form of enforcement in court, and they've done so just fine. This categorically proves that any argument which Richard Stallman has ever made about the necessity of copyleft, is completely and entirely false.

I will say it again; the Free Software Foundation needs to die. It produces nothing positive whatsoever at this point; the only things it generates are conflict, division, and pointless heat and noise. The world will be a much better place when it does.

Re:Time Bandits

[dshadowwolf]

So the fact that numerous people - myself included - use Linux every day for basic tasks doesn't make it usable? The fact that my somewhat technophobic and highly computer-illiterate father often borrows my linux laptop for browsing the web doesn't make it usable? That my sixty year-old mother has requested that, for any computer I build her, I make sure Linux is installed doesn't make it usable?

Linux TRIES to compete as a consumer product. What happens? Well... Back when the Pentium was new MS told OEM's one of two things - either 'we are going to charge you for a license for every computer you manufacture, regardless of whether it has our OS on it or not' or 'If you sell computers with any OS on it that we did not produce, you will lose the bulk-licensing price-cut we give you'. In other words they forced computer manufacturers to put MS created OS's on their machines - forcing any competition out of the market.(*)

And now MS has forced so much mis-information into the public mind that teachers confiscate copies of Linux install disks, claiming they are illegal... Best Buy employees are taught that Windows is the only way to go... The public is taught that a machine of a lower-price is better than a Mac - despite the fact that the Mac generally has a better processor, better video card, bigger hard drive and more RAM than the lower-price machine... MS basically does everything it can to keep the public from ever learning the truth about alternatives to its stranglehold on the OS market.

Yes, Linux has historically had problems handling new hardware. But these days it can run a wider range of hardware correctly than Windows can. I don't really even have to research things anymore - if I go to Wal-Mart, Best-Buy or any other big chain store and purchase a piece of hardware, it is almost certain to be supported by Linux. As an example... Two weeks ago I walked into the local Wal-Mart here, purchased a web-cam and an MP3 player without ever doing research about supported hardware or even looking for a "works with linux" stamp on the packaging. I get home and plug the web-cam in - and it works(**). I plug the MP3 players dongle into the device and into the laptop and it shows up. Everything fully supported. In Windows I'd have had to install the drivers and reboot before I could do anything.

*:Yes, they got hit with a lawsuit over this by the US DoJ, but it didn't have any real, lasting effect.

**: Okay, so it took a quick search of Google to get the camera working with a couple of programs. But at least the information was there and didn't involve things like 'edit registry key...' - in fact, the solutions were short and to the point.

--
This post contains factual information from third parties as well as anecdotal evidence. You should not trust either before doing research and fact-checking.

Re:Time Bandits

[malevolentjelly]

So the fact that numerous people - myself included - use Linux every day for basic tasks doesn't make it usable? The fact that my somewhat technophobic and highly computer-illiterate father often borrows my linux laptop for browsing the web doesn't make it usable? That my sixty year-old mother has requested that, for any computer I build her, I make sure Linux is installed doesn't make it usable?

That's just talk. I've tried to leave home users with Ubuntu before in the past. There's always something that goes wrong and is absolutely impossible for a home user to solve. It's just too *big* and has too many points of failure without the organized support backend of something like the Windows Platform. Open source offerings will get much better when they simplify and reintegrate.

And now MS has forced so much mis-information into the public mind that teachers confiscate copies of Linux install disks, claiming they are illegal... Best Buy employees are taught that Windows is the only way to go... The public is taught that a machine of a lower-price is better than a Mac - despite the fact that the Mac generally has a better processor, better video card, bigger hard drive and more RAM than the lower-price machine... MS basically does everything it can to keep the public from ever learning the truth about alternatives to its stranglehold on the OS market.

Actually, it's not a conspiracy. At this point, Windows is simply more user friendly and usable. I suspect Haiku will overtake Windows in usability before the Linux desktop does, it just has a broad natural advantage in terms of architecture. You certainly can't take away Linux's server utility, though. It will always be firm in that market.

The moment Linux came even close to being usable, Dell and HP picked it up as options. Those don't do that well on the market. I would say they put exuberant faith in it to offer something like Ubuntu on a consumer machine. It certainly doesn't belong there.

Yes, Linux has historically had problems handling new hardware. But these days it can run a wider range of hardware correctly than Windows can. I don't really even have to research things anymore - if I go to Wal-Mart, Best-Buy or any other big chain store and purchase a piece of hardware, it is almost certain to be supported by Linux. As an example... Two weeks ago I walked into the local Wal-Mart here, purchased a web-cam and an MP3 player without ever doing research about supported hardware or even looking for a "works with linux" stamp on the packaging. I get home and plug the web-cam in - and it works(**). I plug the MP3 players dongle into the device and into the laptop and it shows up. Everything fully supported. In Windows I'd have had to install the drivers and reboot before I could do anything.

I've never owned a machine that worked with Linux without incident. Never. My current laptop, for instance, the Gateway LT3103u, does not work well with Linux at all. Its battery life and power management under Linux are especially dismal- and this is pretty ordinary hardware. It's actually losing quite heavily to Vista on this machine. I find that hilarious.

It sounds like you haven't used a Windows system since Windows 98. I can tell because you mention the system rebooting to install a USB device driver.

Windows users don't have to do research to know if something is supported on their system. Almost any device you buy includes a driver CD. I don't think it's terribly complex. It will even update WHQL drivers through Windows update. On Windows 7, you can basically just rely on Windows to find all its own drivers online.

It's not really the consumer's job to do this, though. Your OEM is supposed to handle all the basic driver packaging for your PC.

Linux TRIES to compete as a consumer product

And it fails. I think Haiku has a better shot of becoming a usable desktop os. It's designed for the desktop, it h

Re:Time Bandits

[HitoGuy]

Oh look, the "Linux is not usable" troll. Go back to 1998, when that argument actually had some real standing.

Re:Time Bandits

[Anonymous Coward]

Like the third party patches to Ubuntu 6.04, or the Linux kernel 2.4?

Re:Time Bandits

[Anonymous Coward]

this guy "doesn't get it"

Re:Time Bandits

[Anonymous Coward]

"That's just talk. I've tried to leave home users with Ubuntu before in the past. There's always something that goes wrong and is absolutely impossible for a home user to solve. It's just too *big* and has too many points of failure without the organized support backend of something like the Windows Platform. Open source offerings will get much better when they simplify and reintegrate."

How many Windows problems have you seen a non-tech savvy user actually fix? Face it. This is not any more a problem with Linux than it is with any other operating system. With Windows, the standard procedure when something goes awry is to pop a system recovery disk in there (Hopefully after backing up data, of course.) and completely regress your machine back to factory standard. Microsoft's tech support sucks, no one's getting anything incredibly useful from there. There *is* no reliable support backend for Windows. It still crashes! It still gets infected! And Joe Sixpack doesn't call tech support or muck with configuration files, he just resinstalls the damn thing in the likely event Windows fucks itself up enough. At least with Linux you got a higher proportion people who actually know what the fuck they are doing and can fix virtually any problem without having to resort to the Windows Standard Procedure. There certainly is enough documentation/support out there for Linux, even if trolls don't like to acknowledge them.

"Actually, it's not a conspiracy. At this point, Windows is simply more user friendly and usable. I suspect Haiku will overtake Windows in usability before the Linux desktop does, it just has a broad natural advantage in terms of architecture. You certainly can't take away Linux's server utility, though. It will always be firm in that market."

Since Haiku took over ten fucking years just to reach Alpha? Fuck no. Haiku's not going anywhere, but nice to see where your bias lies.

As for Windows being more "usable" that's a subjective thing. If you grew up using something NOT Windows you wouldn't find it so "usable" today if you tried it for the very first time. "User friendly" is also an extremely subjective term.

"The moment Linux came even close to being usable, Dell and HP picked it up as options. Those don't do that well on the market. I would say they put exuberant faith in it to offer something like Ubuntu on a consumer machine. It certainly doesn't belong there."

Why wouldn't it belong on a consumer machine? Just because Linux isn't "magical" like your beloved OS that will never reach completion (Haiku.). I think it's obvious enough to see why the Ubuntu machines Dell offers don't sell, it's for the same reason Windows Machines bacame common. It had nothing to do with anyone liking it, its quality, or anything of that nature, but highly unethical tactics employed by its maker. Dell's not selling the Ubuntu machines so well because the profit margin is too small and Microsoft is STILL leaning on OEMs.

Consumer products selling has nothing to do with what you think it does. Linux is just as "usable" as Windows. Usability isn't what sells in this market.

"I've never owned a machine that worked with Linux without incident. Never. My current laptop, for instance, the Gateway LT3103u, does not work well with Linux at all. Its battery life and power management under Linux are especially dismal- and this is pretty ordinary hardware. It's actually losing quite heavily to Vista on this machine. I find that hilarious."

Ohhh, I see. Because *you* didn't have a glimmering perfect experience, that must mean that everyone else is having a hard time, too. I guess it's simple enough to say I've had the opposite experience. I've NEVER had problems getting Linux to work, whereas Windows has always been in a pain in the ass. Of course, I'm not claiming that's everyone's experience like you seem to be hinting at. So you're fucking up with Linux. That's your problem. It sure isn't Linux's fault.

"It sounds like you haven't used a Windows

Re:Time Bandits

[HitoGuy]

I agree with you for the most part. It had a time of relevancy, but now it's annoying to hear the Next Evil Thing denounced by His Royal Leader of Free Software Richard Stallman, who probably hasn't written a line of code in decades.

Re:Time Bandits

[dshadowwolf]

That's just talk. I've tried to leave home users with Ubuntu before in the past. There's always something that goes wrong and is absolutely impossible for a home user to solve. It's just too *big* and has too many points of failure without the organized support backend of something like the Windows Platform. Open source offerings will get much better when they simplify and reintegrate.

You have obviously never run into the quality of people I have. I quite regularly get calls from family, friends of family (and their friends, who I've done work for) to fix their windows machines. So while this isn't FUD, it isn't unique to Open-Source at all.

And the integration thing? It is happening all over the place. It used to be that Gnome used CORBA and KDE used DCOP to do things like provide application interfaces that could be hooked from other applications (to, say, be able to control your music-player from your IRC program) and also provide a sane place to find some system data. Now they both use DBUS. Which actually provides a lot more flexibility for the interfaces than DCOP or CORBA ever did... And it also ties into the 'hardware access layer' so that you can find information about all the hardware in the machine in one place.

But really... It sounds like you are calling for projects to merge so that there is less choice and more talent focused on individual projects. I hate to say it, but that will never occur

Actually, it's not a conspiracy. At this point, Windows is simply more user friendly and usable. I suspect Haiku will overtake Windows in usability before the Linux desktop does, it just has a broad natural advantage in terms of architecture. You certainly can't take away Linux's server utility, though. It will always be firm in that market.

I see you took out the whole section where I covered the well documented cases of MS abusing its position in an attempt to force existing competitors out of a specific market (or out of business entirely) and to keep new competitors from entering that same market.

The moment Linux came even close to being usable, Dell and HP picked it up as options. Those don't do that well on the market. I would say they put exuberant faith in it to offer something like Ubuntu on a consumer machine. It certainly doesn't belong there.

Oh, I see... You are trying to make the claim that because Dell and certain other OEM's now offer Linux that they didn't because it wasn't ready. Sorry, but you fail your history check - part of the US DoJ's case against MS was that they did things like threatened to revoke bulk-licensing deals if anything other than an MS OS was offered as an option for a new machine or required that every machine - regardless of whether or not it shipped with an MS OS installed - be counted when it came to calculating the price of the bulk-license. That is what kept Linux off of machines from major manufacturers.

I've never owned a machine that worked with Linux without incident. Never. My current laptop, for instance, the Gateway LT3103u, does not work well with Linux at all. Its battery life and power management under Linux are especially dismal- and this is pretty ordinary hardware. It's actually losing quite heavily to Vista on this machine. I find that hilarious.

I've run Linux on three different laptops now. All three of them were "new" when I purchased them. All three of them have had better battery life in Linux. One of them reported having 4+ hours available at full-charge in Windows, but would last maybe 2 hours - where in Linux it reports just shy of 3 hours and actually lasts just shy of 3 hours. So YMMV - this is why I suggest people not trust my anecdotal evidence without doing research and/or testing.

It sounds like you haven't used a Windows system since Windows 98. I can tell because you mention the system rebooting to install a USB device driver.

Last versio

Re:Time Bandits

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Let me call your attention to Mac OSX. It is a Unix operating system - it has passed all tests and the people that control the UNIX trademark have given Apple the go-ahead to brand it as a 'Unix'. So I guess your contention that UNIX isn't a good base for a desktop OS is dead in the water.

Mac OS X is not a UNIX system. It's UNIX compatible, but its architecture is way different. Besides this, it's completely different once you get above the kernel level-- calling NeXT Unix is just really misleading.

Like Google, Apple disregarded the entire X/GNU stack as a base for a modern desktop system. There is simply nothing worth salvaging within it- it's just too disorganized.

About Haiku... I tried BeOS back in the final days before it died. I absolutely loved it. The P3-500 I was running it on ran like a Dog when running Windows (IIRC, I had 2k installed) and felt like a new machine when running BeOS. So I am hoping the Haiku can recapture all of that feeling. If I had a machine I could spare for it, I would actually give the current Alpha a try on bare-metal.

Try it in VirtualBox. It's super light, so it should run just fine.

I've run Linux on three different laptops now. All three of them were "new" when I purchased them. All three of them have had better battery life in Linux. One of them reported having 4+ hours available at full-charge in Windows, but would last maybe 2 hours - where in Linux it reports just shy of 3 hours and actually lasts just shy of 3 hours. So YMMV - this is why I suggest people not trust my anecdotal evidence without doing research and/or testing.

I've run a couple different laptops in Linux recently. There was an EeePC 900a which could get about 2.5 hours in Linux and 3 in Windows FLP (that's FLP, mind you). My current one is about 2.5 hours in Linux and 5.5 in Vista. It gets about 4 in Windows 7. I think the OEM image has an aggressive custom power management scheme.

I have to agree with you here. But Linux fails because it does not (and has never) tried to hide any of the power of the operating system from the user. It also was not designed by a small team with a single vision of what the OS should be.

Windows hides nothing. COM and .NET are fully exposed to you. Through Powershell, you can utilize the system to do virtually anything its API's are capable of. BeOS doesn't hide functionality, either. I'd say Mac is the most guilty of this.

Oh, I see... You are trying to make the claim that because Dell and certain other OEM's now offer Linux that they didn't because it wasn't ready. Sorry, but you fail your history check - part of the US DoJ's case against MS was that they did things like threatened to revoke bulk-licensing deals if anything other than an MS OS was offered as an option for a new machine or required that every machine - regardless of whether or not it shipped with an MS OS installed - be counted when it came to calculating the price of the bulk-license. That is what kept Linux off of machines from major manufacturers.

I think Linux on the desktop failed quite on its own merits, actually. Now-a-days, after the anti-trust trial, they still got terrible adoption on netbooks. The linux kernel team is always working against the desktop scenario, ALSA ruined audio thereafter on Linux, and pulseaudio and gstreamer have turned multimedia into a clusterfuck. The linux desktop system is ugly, disorganized, and inconsistent. So, the bloat argument v. Windows really turned on its head in the early 2000's as the linux desktop platform completely fell apart. Ubuntu now comes off as a hacked-together mess, where it has some advanced functionality in appearance, but it simply reeks of having no plan or vision in its design and architecture.

I see you took out the whole section where I covered the well documented cases of MS abusing its position

Re:Time Bandits

[Anonymous Coward]

Choose your words carefully; you aren't forced to upgrade. Nothing stops you from running old versions of Windows. Hell, I have a Windows 3.1 machine that still runs. Why didn't this mystical upgrade force take effect? I can still install Windows 95 and run it. I can run Windows 98 just fine. Hell, I can even use KernelEx to upgrade my Windows 98 machine to have greater compatibility with NT and modern applications.

On the contrary, it's generally the Linux world that's all about making you upgrade. Sure you can stay behind but you'll have some serious trouble running the latest applications. Linux forces you to upgrade more than any OS especially with its extremely brief support. XP is going to be supported for a couple more years--more than a decade of support. What does Linux have? Two year support contracts.

Re:Time Bandits

[Anonymous Coward]

For your information Linux IS already competing as a consumer product. Taking free software to the streets is one of many ways to go along with everything else. It's marketing, my friend.

Re:Time Bandits

[mdwh2]

Indeed. Btw, I hope you make exactly the same criticisms to every company that advertises, right?

Most open source solutions are terribly documented It's software where you need to *just know* what's going or hit the forums or wikis.

I can't remember the last time I got an actual manual with a closed source software product - they stopped doing that in most cases years ago. Even for hardware products like cameras, often you now just get a PDF on the software disc.

And yes, having to look up how to do things on the web, when things aren't going right, is commonplace, for closed or open software.

What's so great about free software? It's free? Is Open Office better then MS Office? No? Is GIMP better than Photoshop or PSP or anything? No? Is Linux easier to use than OEM Windows or Mac? Absolutely not?

Even if your straw man argument was accurate, you have provided the answer: if all things are equal, surely people most certainly would be better off with the cheaper (free, in this case), version?

I'm a Windows user btw, but some of the responses in this thread are ridiculous.

Re:Time Bandits

[Axed33]

The UNIX platform is simply too ill adopted to desktop usage scenarios. It's too much of a stretch.

Yeah, OSX is such a crappy desktop. Apple should stick to servers.

Re:Time Bandits

[orasio]

The FSF is not about coding, esp. now that code is so cheap.
You seem to not be able to distinguish between free software and open source software.
Copyleft is needed for free software.
For example, you have the case of the iphone. Apple uses free software to restrict users and determine what they can and can't install on the hardware they buy from them. A copyleft license would not allow them to do that.
Your deduction techniques are intriguing. You say that the fact that a minority of free software uses non copyleft licenses and manages to exist is somehow a proof that copyleft is useless.

Re:Time Bandits

[orasio]

Well, my girlfriend would differ.
For actual casual users, there is no issue with using Ubuntu vs a working version of windows.
Firefox starts from the same icon, photo software looks the same and works the same. Ipod synchronization just works. Simple games are included.
In my experience, Windows machines require either a very experienced windows user, or someone that does routine maintenance. My current machine was installed with ubuntu 5.10 and survived lots of software and hardware upgrades and 2 diskdrive crashes (I backup with dd), without wasting time in maintenance.

Re:Time Bandits

[orasio]

Linux is a kernel, and it's not a consumer product. It's a software project, but it doesn't even have a price.
Market concepts are not universal in principle, and also they don't apply that easily to free things.

You don't seem to understand the concept of usability. Windows is not usable if you analyze it by formal usability metrics, and it has a great market share. Usability is not all. For example, familiarity is even more important. Interoperability costs are important too.

Ubuntu would need to be a lot better to get people to switch. Right now it's only better.

Re:Time Bandits

[Andorin]

If software like OpenOffice was any good whatsoever, companies would brand it and sell the media in stores.

If software like OpenOffice was no good whatsoever, nobody would use it. Period. The fact that it's obviously used by at least some people implies that it's worth using.

Is Open Office better then MS Office? No? Is GIMP better than Photoshop or PSP or anything? No?

Yes and yes. Your opinions are just that, your opinions.

Is Linux easier to use than OEM Windows or Mac? Absolutely not?

Fantastic job on completely omitting all qualities of software besides ease of use, which is subjective anyway.

Wait, why do I care about this again? What if I don't have a fanatical hatred of all things proprietary? What if I am not a freetard, but a productive member of society who needs to use the computer as a tool and not a time wasting obsession?

Yeah, this part alone made me think you need to be modded troll. You're implying that anyone who believes in the philosophy of free software is a nonproductive and therefore useless person. You're further implying that running GNU/Linux (or free software in general) is a "time-wasting obsession" when in fact it brings many positives with it (which, for the pure convenience of your own argument, you ignore). For these implications and assumptions, I ask that you kindly blow it out your ass.

In short, anyone idealistic enough to run free software is already doing so.

Wrong again! You ignore the number of people who don't know about free software or its benefits. That's what these campaigns are about- raising awareness. Debate the effectiveness of their methods all you like, but in the end, people don't know about free software and the FSF wants to change that and give them a voice to which to listen besides Microsoft and their "open source is evil" bullshit. Honestly, if each currently ignorant-of-free-software Windows user were suddenly presented with a stable, functional Linux OS and were magically able to make an informed choice, I bet a good number of people would try it (since you can actually DO that with Linux) and a good number of those people would stick with it.

Re:Time Bandits

[Reservoir Penguin]

Maybe to many computers are just tools, but it's be foolish to compare them to ordinary household appliances. I don't entrust my life savings (via online banking) or my private thoughts and private images to a coffee maker. As long as you use windows or OSX you can never be sure it's not beaming your private data to whatever propretary company, I use Linux and I can.

Re:Time Bandits

[Reservoir Penguin]

Whatever, hit google with vista hardware problem - 30 million hits, whole domains are for solving problem people have with vista drivers, hardware unsupported under vista, vista myseterious crashes, and windows 7 isnt even officially out yet. After you're done with this try vista software problems and see windows people spending months on forums waiting for a solution making their game work.

Re:Time Bandits

[petrus4]

You seem to not be able to distinguish between free software and open source software.
Copyleft is needed for free software.

No, you're not going to drag me into that semantic cesspool. Sorry. I've spent a couple of years studying the methodology of cults, and one of the things which they do, that I know about, is what is called "loading of the language."

It's a technique where either entirely new terms are invented, primarily for the purpose of creating seperation between the cult and the outside world, or, more insidiously, where existing words are given a new, internal, cultic definition.

The fact that you are thinking in terms of Stallman's terminology, and trying to foist it on me here, tells me that you are a cultist; and cultists are people I have very little time for, primarily for the reason that attempting to argue with mind control is an almost entirely futile exercise.

It's exactly like what happened with the Borg. When someone becomes a drone, there often isn't a lot you can do for the individual in question. The best you can hope for, however, is to prevent the assimilation of anyone else.

That is the entire reason why I oppose the FSF. Its' current victims probably can't be saved; the most important thing, then, is simply to do our best to ensure that there won't be any more of them.

For example, you have the case of the iphone. Apple uses free software to restrict users and determine what they can and can't install on the hardware they buy from them.

The appropriate response, then, is not to buy an iphone at all. Shocking, I know, but I don't own one myself; and believe me when I say that physical and/or psychological survival without one is entirely possible. We lived quite fine before Apple first put them on the market, you know.

Either that, or buy a phone whose software and license policy is more to your liking. Nokia, for example, are apparently producing Linux powered phones. With anything that runs Linux, their licensing terms in a formal sense don't matter much, because they can simply be back engineered in the vast majority of cases.

Re:Time Bandits

[malevolentjelly]

Have you ever been to the Ubuntu forums?

Re:Time Bandits

[malevolentjelly]

This argument is extremely weak coming from a freetard. You can't tell me about how rational people think because you have a passionate obsession with free software. It's just a waste.

Re:Time Bandits

[malevolentjelly]

Since Haiku took over ten fucking years just to reach Alpha? Fuck no. Haiku's not going anywhere, but nice to see where your bias lies

Yes, that's the point. Haiku has taken 10 years to reach alpha and has a better shot of being a usable desktop system because it has a vision and a target that will result in a reasonable product.

That's exactly the point of what I said.

Linux has been spinning its wheels on desktop usability for over a decade now by tying itself to failed paradigms, like X and its ill thought out ALSA. The kernel team and Red Hat have long gotten past the illusion that they're making a desktop system- linux is built for servers now.

Re:Time Bandits

[orasio]

You seem to not be able to distinguish between free software and open source software.
Copyleft is needed for free software.

No, you're not going to drag me into that semantic cesspool. Sorry. I've spent a couple of years studying the methodology of cults, and one of the things which they do, that I know about, is what is called "loading of the language."

It's a technique where either entirely new terms are invented, primarily for the purpose of creating seperation between the cult and the outside world, or, more insidiously, where existing words are given a new, internal, cultic definition.

The fact that you are thinking in terms of Stallman's terminology, and trying to foist it on me here, tells me that you are a cultist; and cultists are people I have very little time for, primarily for the reason that attempting to argue with mind control is an almost entirely futile exercise.

I kinda agree with you in principle.
Of course semantics is the issue here.
The thing is that I don't think I am the one inventing new words. I was actually responding to your usage of that "FOSS" term, because that's exactly what I think it is, a semantic game that changes the center of the discussion.

Stallman started using "free software" as in freedom, to talk about software that does not restrict your freedom. It's not a technical term, it's more philosophical, and in real life it it a legal thing, more than anything. I don't think it had a former meaning. "free software" as in "free beer" is and was not really relevant to take precedence over this. Esp. because most unpaid software that is not free software is not actually "no cost" in principle.
Maybe I am biased because I speak Spanish, for us it's clear what "software libre" means, and it can only have one meaning.

Then, other people invented the "open source" term. It means another thing. Open source is a technical term, for people who focus at that kind of thing.

Then, other people came up the "FOSS" term. The thing is that I think _that_ term is loaded, because they say "FOSS" when people are talking about free software. Than means they can start using technical arguments, and so they divert te discussion. Free software is a legal thing.

When I insist on not using the relatively new "FOSS" term I am trying not to talk about the technical aspects, and try to focus on legal aspects. I really care about people knowing that there _are_ legal aspects of using software.

People know that they have to pay for licenses, even though it's not technically necessary. That is not a technical issue, that's a legal thing. Well, people who care about free software care about people thinking about other legal consequences of using software, and taking that into account.

You might be smart enough not to buy an iphone if it's now what your need, but someone who does not know or care about the issues of a proprietary platform, might not be able to know whether it's the best choice for them. And those are the people who set the standards.

Anyhow, my point about the iphone is that it's a case where free software is used to restrict what users can do with stuff they buy. With copyleft, that could not happen. That is the different. If someone wrote free software with an "open source" mindset, because of a technical motivation, that is OK. If they had intended to write free software, with purpose of providing a free software platform with the legal advantages it has, that would be a FAIL, because of the lack of copyleft.

Arr

[Lueseiseki]

Arr... software freedom day? Be I the only seafarer here celebratin' National Talk Like a Pirate Day? Ye all be landlubbers, arr...

Re:Arr

[petrus4]

Arr... software freedom day? Be I the only seafarer here celebratin' National Talk Like a Pirate Day? Ye all be landlubbers, arr...

When ye think about it, it be entirely appropriate for the two to coincide. Yarrrr... ;)

Re:Arr

[sconeu]

Arrr... Ye scurvy scalawag! I be a-celbratin' t'day! An' if'n ye're sayin' else-wise, ye'll be walkin' the plank for sure!

I still dont get it

[jrowlingson]

I know this is probably flamebait, but, it seems like there is no other industry that works as hard as we do to put ourselfs out of jobs.

Re:I still dont get it

[icebraining]

Almost all code is developed to companies, not individual people. Companies will always need new software, or adapt FOSS to their needs, etc.

Proprietary != Commercial.

Re:I still dont get it

[Anonymous Coward]

I know this is probably flamebait, but, it seems like there is no other industry that works as hard as we do to put ourselfs out of jobs.

It is ignorance. The point of code is to avoid repetitious tasks. The point of open source is to avoid paying for that code repeatedly. I can program, have programmed, but largely do not anymore. OSS means I don't pay for the browser or OS I used today. My next hardware purchases (gonna do a Myth box) will not require any software purchased. If this puts people out of a job, so be it. I wish the US did more to support domestic manufacturing - or at least not cripple it. That is where value is. Paying for a word processor again? This ain't the 80s/90s. I am not going to fork over money for that shit.

Exactly the wrong thing to do

[petes_PoV]

handing out Linux and FOSS collections...

Taking unknown software from people you don't know. Isn't that what the security community has been telling everyone NOT to do for years, decades. Maybe these advocates should think a little about the underlying message they are sending out and stop undoing the good work that others are doing to stop the spread of malware.

Re:Exactly the wrong thing to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't jump to conclusions.
Step 2 is: Anyone who actually accepts the CD gets smacked upside the head!

Re:Exactly the wrong thing to do

[HitoGuy]

You're assuming Stallmanists actually think. If they did they'd see through about 90% of the propaganda Stallman cranks out these days.

I support free software, but only so far as its actually practical. Like, I won't use GNash since it is not as good as Flash, and I want actual 3D acceleration, etc. I won't declare software evil purely because its proprietary but based off of the actual character of the software makers. RMS would rather we just blindly hate on all proprietary software. If I did that I'd use crippled disributions like gNewSense.

The problem I see with Stallman is he overly politicizes software. I think it should be more treated like a PERSONAL PREFERENCE then a POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY. I like open source because I *have* noticed a significant quality and, yes, fun aspect of FOSS. Maybe it's because I'm a tech-savvy programmer. But I have noticed a couple cases where the open source alternative doesn't really work all that well or doesn't offer what I really want. Then I go proprietary.

I use the "nvidia" driver, Flash 10... not nv (Which only supports 2D on nVidia cards... barely. Since I like eye candy this driver is not used at all by me if I can help it.) or Nouveau (I admit I know little about this driver or what its features are. I *do* know it's not up to the proprietary driver's level.). Too bad KWin in KDE 4.3 doesn't have alpha blurring anymore.

I know people will say GIMP/OpenOffice are not as good as Photoshop/Office. Personally, I think GIMP is quite good. Maybe not as good as PS, but the difference between GIMP and PS is hundreds of dollars and professional features I don't give a shit about. I personally think that, with a little refining, Go-OpenOffice (The Novell Fork of OO.) can easily beat or at least match MS Office. It certainly fills my limited needs, at least.

My "software philosophy" is "forget politics or what is moral in theory, use what works well for you," I honestly don't see any real MORAL issue as an end-user whether or not I use proprietary software or not.

In fact, I would not be honest if I said I don't believe there isn't evil open source software, either. I personally don't trust Mono, for example, because of the companies backing it.

Re:Exactly the wrong thing to do

[Reservoir Penguin]

RMS is a genious and long ago when computers were not yet consumer products he had foreseen the future. It's hard not to politisize software when it has become a central piece in our lifes. Digital data handled by computers is connected with all aspects of our lifes. With online banking people entrust their life savings to proprietary software, entrust their private diaries and private photos. People have gone to jail over as little as giving a friend a copy of a program, people have gone to jail over data sent by their computer to law enforcement via propritary government approved rootkits. You can not compare your PC to a coffee maker and say you don't care what embedded OS it runs.

Re:Exactly the wrong thing to do

[HitoGuy]

Uh, actually by the time RMS got started (1983) computers were well into the consumer point of view thanks to companies like MITS, Apple, IBM, and Microsoft. Apple was a year away from releasing its magnum opus, the Macintosh (Not their first GUI-based machine.), and IBM as already deep into selling its best seller, the IBM PC, which was knee-deep in MS-DOS. Another two years woulsd see the Mac become a huge hit and Windows' first release. RMS, at the time, was still diddling around with pre-Alpha/Alpha versions of the GNU toolchain.

RMS didn't foresee anything.

Advertise INSIDE a business

[HockeyPuck]

These guys need to advertise inside or be associated with a particular business that people are going to. Take the grocery store. At my local grocery store, the Girl Scouts often set up a table to sell their cookies. This is a brand that people trust for quality. We trust the Girl Scouts that their product is safe for us to consume. On the other hand, I often see a woman that is sitting on folding chair and when you leave the supermarket she asks you, very quietly if you want Tamales. I wouldn't take a Tamale from this woman if it was free, because I do not trust her.

The local supermarkets often have people stationed inside providing samples of various products. Usually a retiree standing in front of a table with a small griddle or toaster oven. While I have no interest in the products they are usually preparing, I would trust that they are safe. These guys should set up their table inside of computer stores (Apple Store, BestBuy etc..), atleast that could add some credibility to their product, or atleast the appearance of credibility.

On the other hand, why should I trust a random group of people on the street? Did we forget the recent incident where hackers mailed malware infected CDs to Credit Unions? The only difference is that instead of pretending the CDs come from some gov't organization, they're coming from some "OpenSource" group standing at a table on the street.

Re:Advertise INSIDE a business

[mrslacker]

Actually, that _is_ the plan. At least, the local one is associating itself with a frozen yogurt place.

Of course, this wasn't at all obvious, since the site itself is hopelessly disorganized, and the front page is a photo of a bunch of geeks, and doesn't really say anywhere what the whole thing is about (the about page says a bit more, but that stuff should be on the front).

Oh well, maybe some lessons to learn for next year.

Re:Advertise INSIDE a business

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people here took this the wrong way. Has someone ever been at a fare trade? No one is asked to accept things or listen to the advertisers. The advertisers are there available to give information if requested for it.

M$ Windoze Will not work

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people probably won't know what to do with M$ Windoze anyway and yet will continue to use in the end. The average person will need help installing and configuring M$ Windoze.

Even if they try installing it they will end up being frustrated for not being able to get things to work. They will end up scarred by the experience and fall back to M$ Windows Preinstalled on their Dells.

Much better to spend their efforts educating students at universities or school by giving their first dose for free. Even better to get universities and schools to promote M$ Windoze. This way children are forced to learn to work with malware from M$ and $ony. When they grow up they would be the perfect M$ addicts only able to use the experience to promote and use nonfree software at home/work.

The perfect solution would be for the governments of the world to arrest the execs and stockholders of M$, fine M$ for all of their money, and free all code and specs for their proprietary file formats.

--
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Friends do assist M$ addicted friends in committing suicide.

Re:M$ Windoze Will not work

[Anonymous Coward]

haha, all of twitter's sockpuppets are posting at -1 so he has to post AC

ease if installation of FOSS

[viralMeme]

"Most people probably won't know what to do with it anyway and it will end up in the bin. The average person will need help installing and configuring linux"

Insert Ubuntu CD, boot, click on Install, answer a few questions and that's it. Plug in your 3 mobile broadband USB dongle and you're on the Internet. How many Windows users have to install from scratch anyway ?

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[Blakey Rat]

Insert Ubuntu CD, boot, click on Install, answer a few questions and that's it.

Ok, now I just need to open my wedding invitation Word file from last year and-- ALL MY DOCUMENTS ARE GONE!!!!

(Psst: you're missing a huge step here.)

Plug in your 3 mobile broadband USB dongle and you're on the Internet.

What the fuck is a "3 mobile broadband USB dongle?" I certainly don't have one of those. Will Ubuntu work with my laptop's built-in Wifi? Possibly. My desktop's USB wifi? Doubtful. My desktop's built-in network card? Probably. But all of those answers have built-in vagueness.

How many Windows users have to install from scratch anyway ?

Not relevant to the issue at hand.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, bitch. It's 2009, time to update your bullshit rhetoric.

Ok, now I just need to open my wedding invitation Word file from last year and-- ALL MY DOCUMENTS ARE GONE!!!!

That's funny, when I click on last year's file created in Word, it just works. You know, seeing as both Microsoft Office seamlessly installs in Linux with Wine and works just as good (if not better with faster loading times due to superior and quicker file systems) as it does on Windows. Of course, who needs to pay for Office when OpenOffice is free and also opens up those Word documents for me.

What the fuck is a "3 mobile broadband USB dongle?" I certainly don't have one of those. Will Ubuntu work with my laptop's built-in Wifi? Possibly. My desktop's USB wifi? Doubtful. My desktop's built-in network card? Probably. But all of those answers have built-in vagueness.

Hey, I don't know what a 3 dongle is either, but I can damn sure tell you this: My Novatel USB720 I got from Verizon works like a dream. I just plug it in to a fresh install of Linux and click connect. Within 5 seconds, I'm online. No bullshit drivers or crapware to install. Contrast this with Windows where I have to install said drivers and crapware, start up the craplication to connect with, wait the requisite 30 seconds to a minute for it to connect and then be consistently dropped every hour or so necessitating going through the whole 30 second process again. And since we are trading anecdotes here, I'll indulge you further. My zd1211 USB wifi network adapter just worked. Windows, ha ha, install the driver, use the shitty software and again, get a connection drop every hour or so. Yes, I tried it, yes that is what happened. Ethernet adapter, in Linux, of course it worked. Windows, of course install more crapware.

You proprietards are pathetic with your bullshit.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[Blakey Rat]

That's funny, when I click on last year's file created in Word, it just works. You know, seeing as both Microsoft Office seamlessly installs in Linux with Wine and works just as good (if not better with faster loading times due to superior and quicker file systems) as it does on Windows. Of course, who needs to pay for Office when OpenOffice is free and also opens up those Word documents for me.

That doesn't change the fact that installing Ubuntu will FORMAT THE FUCKING DRIVE. You gigantic douchebag.

Hey, I don't know what a 3 dongle is either, but I can damn sure tell you this: My Novatel USB720 I got from Verizon works like a dream. I just plug it in to a fresh install of Linux and click connect. Within 5 seconds, I'm online. No bullshit drivers or crapware to install. Contrast this with Windows where I have to install said drivers and crapware, start up the craplication to connect with, wait the requisite 30 seconds to a minute for it to connect and then be consistently dropped every hour or so necessitating going through the whole 30 second process again. And since we are trading anecdotes here, I'll indulge you further. My zd1211 USB wifi network adapter just worked. Windows, ha ha, install the driver, use the shitty software and again, get a connection drop every hour or so. Yes, I tried it, yes that is what happened. Ethernet adapter, in Linux, of course it worked. Windows, of course install more crapware.

So when these people hand out the Ubuntu CDs, they're also going to hand out known-compatible hardware to ensure that everything on their system works correctly?

The point of the exercise is that they're handing these CDs to random people on the street, people who could have *any* random assortment of hardware. Sure, we all know that if you have supported hardware, Ubuntu works fine. That's not the point. The point is that there's no way of knowing whether these people have supported hardware or not!

So. You completely missed the point, once again. You gigantic douchebag.

You proprietards are pathetic with your bullshit.

Woot. I'm a proprietard!

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[westlake]

Insert Ubuntu CD, boot, click on Install, answer a few questions and that's it.
Ok, now I just need to open my wedding invitation Word file from last year and-- ALL MY DOCUMENTS ARE GONE!!!!
(Psst: you're missing a huge step here.)

Dual booting or virtualization are things no ordinary user will ever want to do.

Two operating systems to maintain. Two operating environments. Two software libraries. Multiple skill sets.

That can be agony for even the most dedicated enthusiast or IT pro.

If you are looking for FOSS the simplest - least painful - solution is to download and install the apps ported to Windows or the Mac.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't change the fact that installing Ubuntu will FORMAT THE FUCKING DRIVE. You gigantic douchebag.

You know, it's hard to take this level of trolling seriously, since anybody with even a passing familiarity with Ubuntu knows, the installer defaults to partitioning your drive so that you can easily choose between Windows or Ubuntu upon reboot. Unlike Windows which if it detects a partition not formatted in Fat or NTFS, will very helpfully offer to blow it away. And, even if you don't do that, you can forget the Windows bootloader adding your other OS to it's menu. I mean, what would you need any other OS anyway for? You have the magnificent Vista (ha ha). You can even install Ubuntu from within Windows with Wubi which is probably going to be the default option for most people as they will do what they usually do with a new CD, just start up Windows and put it in the drive to let the autorun and setup.exe do it's magic. Since you are so obviously a troll, I shouldn't feed you but I will anyway so no one else will be easily duped by your lies.

So when these people hand out the Ubuntu CDs, they're also going to hand out known-compatible hardware to ensure that everything on their system works correctly?

Again with the trolling. Don't you people even stop to take a breath? Using your absurd logic, we should just give up on any operating system. As there is not a single one out there that will work with any and all hardware devices that are stuck in it. And even if you wanted to use the straw man of new hardware that someone would buy from WalMart or Best Buy today, I guess that counts out OSX too as it works with much less hardware than Linux does. I have a scanner that I use on a very regular basis that absolutely will not work in any recent version of Windows. Should I throw it away? Hell no. It works great in Ubuntu. Linux works with more hardware out of the box than any operating system ever. Period. And guess what. If you are one of the edge cases that takes an Ubuntu CD home today and it doesn't work with what you have, that's fine. Nothing works with everything. Maybe try us again next time. At least with Linux, you have a good shot of if your hardware doesn't work today, it will in a few months. Unlike Windows that if your hardware doesn't work with the Latest and Greatest, you are shit out of luck for all eternity. For the vast majority of people though, have fun with your new completely free Linux software system.

Woot. I'm a proprietard!

Maybe this is a little below the belt but that statement just stands on its own.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[Anonymous Coward]

"3 mobile broadband USB dongle" is likely intended to be "3G mobile broadband USB dongle"

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[indi0144]

humm you forgot that not every PC is set to default boot from CD, Average Joe don't want to know what a BIOS is, do, or how is baked.

You're not thinking in a faulty Mobo or RAM that would make the boot from live CD panic

You think the 95% of PC users have an IQ above 110 that is, IMHO, a "hardware requirement" for to you fiddle with Linux. See? Linux is and will be relegated to ~5% of the population because thats the percentage of people with an intelligence "above average" That is, until you don't have to use a shell or edit configs by hand.

I still don't get it, why do you want everybody to use Linux if it's a power tool? Just to steal Windows market share? If thats the case then go to OEMs, fork an parallel distro of Linux (Linux Desktop) and make it a business: with coherent and professional advertising, strategy, market research, strategic alliances and paid support.

I'm fucking tired of seeing how a nice and needed product like Linux is so poorly managed both in brand and strategy. PLEASE if you're not coherent with your promotional strategy you're making more bad than good, if you're not going to sustain your promotional efforts for more than 5 years don't do anything big, it's ironic but all the hatred from developers against the marketing guys, your allergic reaction to anything marketing is what makes Linux to be condemned to be, undeservedly(?), an UNDERDOG.

Leave Aunt Annie with her XP beige box SHE DONT NEED LINUX.. I'd say: THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! they have the time and the tender brain tissue Linux requires. Really, is anyone paying attention IRL?

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[HitoGuy]

Really? Maintaining a dual boot system is agony? I've know plenty of "normal" users who do it no problem.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[Joe Jay Bee]

Basically yeah. I'm assuming the OP is a Brit - "3" is one of the UK's big mobile phone networks that do the 3G USB dongles.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[jwilcox154]

Hey, bitch. It's 2009, time to update your bullshit rhetoric.

Ok, now I just need to open my wedding invitation Word file from last year and-- ALL MY DOCUMENTS ARE GONE!!!!

That's funny, when I click on last year's file created in Word, it just works. You know, seeing as both Microsoft Office seamlessly installs in Linux with Wine and works just as good (if not better with faster loading times due to superior and quicker file systems) as it does on Windows. Of course, who needs to pay for Office when OpenOffice is free and also opens up those Word documents for me.

If you would have read Blakey Rat's post it deals with formatting a drive, not with file formats. There is a chance Ubuntu(and even windows) could format the drive if the user is not too careful.

What the fuck is a "3 mobile broadband USB dongle?" I certainly don't have one of those. Will Ubuntu work with my laptop's built-in Wifi? Possibly. My desktop's USB wifi? Doubtful. My desktop's built-in network card? Probably. But all of those answers have built-in vagueness.

Hey, I don't know what a 3 dongle is either, but I can damn sure tell you this: My Novatel USB720 I got from Verizon works like a dream. I just plug it in to a fresh install of Linux and click connect. Within 5 seconds, I'm online. No bullshit drivers or crapware to install. Contrast this with Windows where I have to install said drivers and crapware, start up the craplication to connect with, wait the requisite 30 seconds to a minute for it to connect and then be consistently dropped every hour or so necessitating going through the whole 30 second process again. And since we are trading anecdotes here, I'll indulge you further. My zd1211 USB wifi network adapter just worked. Windows, ha ha, install the driver, use the shitty software and again, get a connection drop every hour or so. Yes, I tried it, yes that is what happened. Ethernet adapter, in Linux, of course it worked. Windows, of course install more crapware.

Or how about trying to use Ubuntu with the Sound Blaster X-Fi? There are some pieces of hardware that do not have a driver for Linux and many people will not know this ahead of time. Distributing a hardware compatibility list will solve this dilemma since it will allow to figure out whether or not their hardware is compatible before installing Ubuntu. Knowing this ahead of time will allow for someone to either purchase the proper hardware and either install it themselves or allow for someone who is more experienced to install it for them.

This will allow for Ubuntu to work flawlessly

You proprietards are pathetic with your bullshit.

Ahh, attacking the messenger and not the message. Not saying you are twitter, but he or she uses similar tactics such as calling people paytards. Calling people childish names is one way ensure the post will be viewed as childish.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[smoker2]

That doesn't change the fact that installing Ubuntu will FORMAT THE FUCKING DRIVE.

No it won't you fucking gigantic douchebag. However, the reverse is certainly not the case.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[Anonymous Coward]

*Sigh*

I swear if you and your troll partner keep making this so easy, people are going to get suspicious. Try to come up with something a little less easy to repudiate next time.

If you would have read Blakey Rat's post it deals with formatting a drive, not with file formats. There is a chance Ubuntu(and even windows) could format the drive if the user is not too careful.

Yes, I read his troll. And I dismantled it. Now, I'll dismantle yours. The reason I didn't respond to the absurdly transparent scare-tactic of what essentially boiled down to "ZOMG ALL UR DATAS GO POOF!!1" is because, I naturally assumed that even a blatant troll wouldn't sink so low as to be that deliberately misleading. Alas, I was wrong. First of all, the typical user, as I said below, will take an Ubuntu CD and put into the drive while Windows is running like they do with all of their other CD's. Wubi will start up and if they choose to install Ubuntu, it will just make a special file on their already there NTFS partition that will actually be an image to house their Ubuntu install. The bootloader will be modified to point to this file so that they can reboot and use Ubuntu at their leisure. How can you possibly format and lose data this way? If they install Ubuntu the real way, it defaults to partitioning the drive and simply making room for itself. It is not going to magically eat your Windows partition. You have to very explicitly tell it to wipe off Windows. Of course, you would have to very explicitly stab yourself in the eye with a fork too. If anybody is that stupid, there is very little help for them anyway.

Or how about trying to use Ubuntu with the Sound Blaster X-Fi?

Ubuntu 9.10 will drop next month. A little icon will flash on the taskbar that upon being clicked will let you know it's time to upgrade. The 2.6.31 kernel which is included in that update has the x-fi drivers you are looking for. I mean, surely it isn't unprecedented that an OS should be shipped before drivers for all hardware in existence are ready, right?

Distributing a hardware compatibility list will solve this dilemma since it will allow to figure out whether or not their hardware is compatible before installing Ubuntu.

Only a proprietard troll mind could come up with that tripe. I'll type this very slowly so even you might understand. It's a live CD. Boot it up. If your hardware works, great. If it doesn't, take it out of the tray and reboot. Done. What's the point of making a list and forcing someone to laboriously pour over it when it is that simple. If you decide to just install from Windows, even better; just go to add/remove programs and hit remove. You are stuck in that proprietary mind set where things only work one way. With Ubuntu, you have a great deal of flexibility that you just can't get with Windows or OSX. And this is just one great example. Thanks for pointing it out for me.

Ahh, attacking the messenger and not the message.

I actually did a little of the former and a great deal of the latter. If the troll had been just a little less obvious, I may have given it a bit of the benefit of the doubt, but since it was plainly obvious what the intent of his post (and yours, btw) was (perpetuating misleading lies), I just told it exactly how it was.

Now go back under your bridge, little troll and dream up some more lies that I can slap down.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think he understands what you're telling him or doesn't have much experience with the public.

The first thing the user is likely to do is to insert the CD while he is still in Windows then go "WTF is this?" and eject the CD. If they press on through the reboot and install they're going to wonder what the hell happened to their computer and all their documents.

This has nothing to do with Windows vs Linux. It's just the reality for a large portion of users. The same problem would exist if everyone had Linux installed and Microsoft handed out a bunch of Windows CDs. People wouldn't understant what they're installing and if they do install they wouldn't know to back all their stuff up or seek out alternative applications. Very few people know what to do when it comes to switching platforms. Hell people barely know how to upgrade from one OS to another.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are looking for FOSS the simplest - least painful - solution is to download and install the apps ported to Windows or the Mac.

This must be the new party line as I've been seeing it crop up amongst you astroturfers lately. Of course, throw OSX in there to try and legitimize it some, right? Not like very many people use Macs anyway.

I don't really have anything in particular to add. Did want to let you know that I appreciate you people steering people towards open software. That's how I found Linux. Started with Firefox and one day, I realized every app I use is open source, might as well make the underlying system open source too.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[jwilcox154]

*Sigh*

I swear if you and your troll partner keep making this so easy, people are going to get suspicious. Try to come up with something a little less easy to repudiate next time.

If you would have read Blakey Rat's post it deals with formatting a drive, not with file formats. There is a chance Ubuntu(and even windows) could format the drive if the user is not too careful.

I am no one's partner, rather I look at all issues with an open mind. Intellectually bankrupt trolls don't bother put their brain into gear before posting their personal attack filled temper tantrums.

Yes, I read his troll. And I dismantled it. Now, I'll dismantle yours. The reason I didn't respond to the absurdly transparent scare-tactic of what essentially boiled down to "ZOMG ALL UR DATAS GO POOF!!1" is because, I naturally assumed that even a blatant troll wouldn't sink so low as to be that deliberately misleading. Alas, I was wrong. First of all, the typical user, as I said below, will take an Ubuntu CD and put into the drive while Windows is running like they do with all of their other CD's. Wubi will start up and if they choose to install Ubuntu, it will just make a special file on their already there NTFS partition that will actually be an image to house their Ubuntu install. The bootloader will be modified to point to this file so that they can reboot and use Ubuntu at their leisure. How can you possibly format and lose data this way? If they install Ubuntu the real way, it defaults to partitioning the drive and simply making room for itself. It is not going to magically eat your Windows partition. You have to very explicitly tell it to wipe off Windows. Of course, you would have to very explicitly stab yourself in the eye with a fork too. If anybody is that stupid, there is very little help for them anyway.

Not misleading as I stated there is a chance something could happen if a user was not careful. In other words if the user chooses to install it improperly. You know, there are multiple ways one can install Ubuntu, one of which is by inserting the CD after the computer boots up. BTW, the original post did not even state for the person to inset the CD, it stated "Insert Ubuntu CD, boot, click on Install, answer a few questions and that's it." It did miss at least one step, such as performing a full backup of all personal data if one already hasn't been done already. If the ViralMeme intended on the user installing Ubuntu from Windows he or she would have stated "Insert the Ubuntu CD While in Windows"

Or how about trying to use Ubuntu with the Sound Blaster X-Fi?

Ubuntu 9.10 will drop next month. A little icon will flash on the taskbar that upon being clicked will let you know it's time to upgrade. The 2.6.31 kernel which is included in that update has the x-fi drivers you are looking for. I mean, surely it isn't unprecedented that an OS should be shipped before drivers for all hardware in existence are ready, right?

One other tactic intellectually bankrupt trolls use is quoting out of context. As I had stated "There are some pieces of hardware that do not have a driver for Linux and many people will not know this ahead of time." That is not placing blame on Ubuntu, but on the hardware manufacturer and maybe even the OEM. The same thing applies with Creative Labs with the X-Fi. That is why I got rid of my X-Fi, no linux support and they had no plans with supporting the X-Fi at that time. This same proprietary mess is why I have chosen a Sansa Fuze over an Apple iPod.

Distributing a hardware compatibility list will solve this dilemma since it will allow to figure out whether or not their hardware is compatible before installing Ubuntu.

Only a proprietard troll mind could come up wi

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[Anonymous Coward]

Note: I almost didn't respond as your comment is 90 percent rambling drivel that doesn't even come together to make even a little piece of a coherent argument but, what can you say, I'm a sucker for even a half-assed troll.

If the ViralMeme intended on the user installing Ubuntu from Windows he or she would have stated "Insert the Ubuntu CD While in Windows"

Maybe ViralMeme isn't aware of that feature. Well, I am. And this is you and me talking. Conversations evolve. Try to keep up.

Not misleading as I stated there is a chance something could happen if a user was not careful.

Damn. No shit, Sherlock. There's a chance a whole lot of shit could happen in every facet of your life every day. Using your logic, nobody should even get out of bed in the morning. Your sniveling is pathetic. Of course, using the argument that users shouldn't even try Ubuntu because they just might lose data is nothing but a red herring anyway. I'm not even going to go through it again. Just reference the relevant parts of my other posts. However, that does bring me to something related. Windows 7 comes out next month. Most people are on XP. XP can't be directly upgraded to 7. So, I guess since there is the chance of data loss going between the 2 systems, nobody should ever make the upgrade. Yes, your "logic" sounds that stupid. Of course, many people will just buy a new computer. Same deal. Transferring documents from one box even with the ever helpful wizards still carries a chance of data loss. I guess they should just all stick to XP forever. Again, that's how your argument sounds.

I've already exhaustively responded to tripe similar to yours concerning hardware compatibility so, again, I refer you to my other posts.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[jwilcox154]

That's funny, when I click on last year's file created in Word, it just works. You know, seeing as both Microsoft Office seamlessly installs in Linux with Wine and works just as good (if not better with faster loading times due to superior and quicker file systems) as it does on Windows. Of course, who needs to pay for Office when OpenOffice is free and also opens up those Word documents for me.

That doesn't change the fact that installing Ubuntu will FORMAT THE FUCKING DRIVE. You gigantic douchebag.

It could format the drive if someone installs it from within Ubuntu rather using Wubi. The only time that will happen is if someone makes a couple wrong choices with partitioning.

One word of advice, though; People would take posts more seriously when users refrain from personal attacks. I know it's hard to do when someone is trolling Slashdot but it can be done.

Re:ease if installation of FOSS

[Anonymous Coward]

So what we really need is a simple and straightforward installer to pop up, explain what it's all about, and give the user a clear choice of what to do next, when the CD is inserted?

Well, ubuntu discs have wubi, iirc, they used to have some windows FOSS on too, the opendisc consists purely of stuff they'll be able to install in windows without scary stuff happening.

wacky "I'm a PC" booth

[viralMeme]

Beats parking an "I'm a PC" booth outside Apple Store

Too late!

[Smivs]

Software Freedom Day 2009

Great idea telling us today...plenty of time to get the local effort organised!

Re:Too late!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well it will happened again next year, so you can start to prepare now! ;-)

Re:Too late!

[calcutta001]

  Software Freedom Day 2009

Great idea telling us today...plenty of time to get the local effort organised!

This is not funny. I wish I had known about this so I could organize a local event.

Thanks for telling us so late. (sarcastic)

Re:Too late!

[Cornwallis]

Agreed! My whole business is based on F/OSS and this is the first I've heard of it.

Software Freedom Day.

[Anonymous Coward]

Software Freedom Day* *Unless you want to make or use proprietary software then you can simply burn in hell.

Re:Software Freedom Day.

[shutdown -p now]

Well, it's consistent with FSF philosophy - it's a day of freedom for software, not freedom for people.

reasonable people

[Anonymous Coward]

"Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people." -- George Bernard Shaw

Re:reasonable people

[ClosedSource]

It does not follow from Shaw's theory, that all unreasonable people make progress.

"Cool is a rumor, sometimes bad is bad" -- huey lewis

School

[gninnor]

It seems that the model that is used my apple and M$ is to get people use to their computers in school. After the preferences are in place, people stay with it until there is a reason to change.

Try to stay warm!

[fat_mike]

Team Antarctica!

Seriously, do we really want to give the Reptilians living inside the "Hollow Earth" accessible by a giant hole in Antarctica more reasons to attack?

Beat The Clock

[westlake]

Great idea telling us today...plenty of time to get the local effort organised!

The end of summer is marked by the Open Regatta, the county fair and Peach Festival, jazz concerts in the park, the Labor Day Parade.

The Back-To-School Sale.

Crowds are large, receptive, very well fed - they love hand-outs and are open to anyone who puts on a good show.

If can offer them shade, a coke and a folding chair, so much the better.

But, geek being geek, he'll chose the chill and wet of autumn - and place himself at the point of maximum inconvenience.

The Seventh Day Adventist at your door.

Interesting thought

[zogger]

Car analogy time

We just got back from town, on the trip, a convoy of antique cars went by obviously going to or from some rally. Now, I doubt many of those companies exist, or if they do, still offer "official authorized" factory repair parts, which we will term "patches". That market is now made up of enthusiasts who build their own replacement parts, or small shops that turn them out because they know there is a market..just to keep those old cars running. And the same applies to more modern era "muscle cars".

Why is it that any software, that is granted patents, etc, is treated different? Why is it "legal" to not be able to thoroughly analyze, observe all the bits, and come up with "parts" or aftermarket "patches"? No one gets sued for making old car parts, and it isn't illegal, or anything like that. And it isn't illegal to reverse engineer, disassemble, inspect, or even *improve upon* the original design of this that or the other part.

This has been seriously bogus for a long time, either just copyrights, or treat it like a tangible manufactured product because they are allowed patents, etc, but not both.

    And what's the deal with no warranty anyway, why does software get a free skate on that, this "caveat emptor" stance that no other "thing" in the market place has, when all other products, whether outright sold or leased -"licensed to use", must provide, or have automatically applied to them, a minimum warranty as to suitability for purpose and free from glaring and harmful defects and so on?

Software gets double legal protection, something no other "product" gets, while having zero legal requirements for actual functionality and security (free from harmful defects) (most generally speaking), again, something no other product gets.

I'd really like to see this taken all the way so that we got a legal ruling on software either being a work of art, OR a tangible-like product worthy of patent protection, and in that case warranties should apply. Both, plus no warranty required, is just too dang much, especially for bits that have serious folding money attached to the transfer of same, which said bits then get used and put "at risk" of effecting a million times (whatever) more in volume of this serious folding money stuff. And it has and still does have a huge past record of negatively impacting businesses and people who have lost data, money, had ID and CC info swiped and used, etc because of glaring and unpatched code, proving it was not quite up to the task of being suitable for purpose nor free from glaring defects..

Heh, I can even envision the scene in the courtroom to get this analogy across to the judge, the "Boston Legal" method. That younger yuppie lawyer they got, the one with the out of the box thinking brain, forget his name, he comes in with all the old car busted parts, then spanking new ones that have been built, and NOT by Belchfire, while Shatner is floating around wearing old driving duds complete with goggles and the snap brim hat, with his 1919 restored Belchfire Steamer parked out front (if they manage to prevent him driving it right into the courtroom, which he tries to do).

Re:Interesting thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Difference being that nobody pretends that antique cars are anything but a hobby.

90 day free trial of Ubuntu!

[symbolset]

What we need is to stamp "90 day free trial" on all the CDs. If AOL is a useful example, people will do anything to get that installed. By the time they figure out that the rest of the days are free too it'll be too late - they won't know how to uninstall it.

Expected reaction

[tecnico.hitos]

FOSS Advocate: You are allowed to get the source code and modify the software to better fit your needs.
Average Joe: Lol wut!?
FOSS Advocate: ...you also don't have to pay.
Average Joe: You mean there are programs you have to pay for!?

Wow Slashdot.

[Statecraftsman]

For being one of the most free-software-leaning discussion sites on the internet, the level of derision here for Software Freedom day is odd.

There is no requirement for Software Freedom day to pass out CDs or leaflets or get in anyone's face. It can be as simple as having a BBQ and inviting your geekiest friends. If you happen to print out some flyers like this or this or yikes! even burn a free-software-infested CD I don't think you'll be hurting anyone. If you do happen to have an event, take pictures...it'd be nice to see what SFD really look like rather than dwell on the fear posed by a burnt-CD.

Happy Software Freedom Day!

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[petrus4]

For being one of the most free-software-leaning discussion sites on the internet, the level of derision here for Software Freedom day is odd.

That is an extremely encouraging, healthy, and positive sign.

The Free Software Foundation, and its' activism, both need to die if Linux is ever going to become anything more than fringe.

If Slashdot's readership are discouraging of such activism, it will hopefully gradually move us towards a point where said activism ceases to occur.

I am not saying that I think Linux advocacy should cease entirely. It does, however, need to cease being radical, cultic, and infused with as much hate, fear, and paranoia as it has been in the past. There needs to be far more focus put purely on Linux's technical strengths, and as little as possible put on the mind control of Richard Stallman.

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's only technical strengths you care about, why use free software at all?

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[petrus4]

If it's only technical strengths you care about, why use free software at all?

LOL. The silent implication here is deeply amusing. "We don't mind if technically speaking, the software is garbage. At least it's Free!"

I use FreeBSD. In my own mind, it's pretty much the greatest operating system in existence in technical terms. It being FOSS is part of the reason for that, of course; but that's also the point.

Valuing the fact that software is open source, doesn't have to be about Stallman's cultic propaganda. Source code availability has a lot of positive implications for technical quality as well.

Virtually nobody thinks of that, though. Most of the people who so fervently beat the drum for FOSS, don't do so because they care about the quality of the software, at all.

They do it purely because Stallman tells them to.

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't get it, where does RMS's "mind control" come into all of this, the idea is to get into schools, colleges, libraries and community centres, etc. around the world, this is important, not everyone's as much of an embittered cynic as the /. regulars, and demonstrate to users, by way of hands on displays where possible and demos or good old fashioned conversation where not, the kind of genuinely useful open source software that's available to them.

And remember, this isn't just about linux, this is about open source adoption in general. When your average user buys a computer they think of it in a task oriented way, based on what bundled crap it came with, so they know the computer can play some card games, it can browse the web, it might be able to write some basic documents, or some complex documents for 30 days, it'll also protect them from viruses for a similar period of time. That's about it, they'll probably stumble across some online 3d poker and other similarly useful applications which are a FREE DOWNLOAD!!!, but by the time this happen they'll likely need to take it back to the shop to get their files backed up and the windows installation wipe/reinstalled. While they're there they might fork out £80+ for some office software and a quick £25 for a new antivirus subscription.

These are the kind of people who can benefit greatly from receiving an OpenDisc, suddenly they discover that their computer is actually capable of performing considerably more tasks than they had previously thought, and without needing to go and buy a retail box from PC world or a FREE DOWNLOAD accompanied by unexplained breakages.

I too find it strange that the very concept of a software freedom day is being dismissed out of hand, it seems that a great deal of posters are just making wild and baseless assumptions.

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL.

Having the source available is all it takes, right? Technical merits are all that matter. So why give FreeBSD away at all? Why not just make the source public, but restrict its use? That way, you can sell it, and you'll still get the technical improvements that having visible source would have.

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the silent implication is that Mac OS X is much better technically than FreeBSD, partly because it's non-free.

Yes, yes, I know it's based on BSD code, but that's not the point. The point is, why are you using FreeBSD which is obviously hard to use and a pile of crap compared to all the non-free enhancements that Apple has put into Mac OS X? I challenge you to convince anyone but a propellorhead that FreeBSD is technically superior to Mac OS X.

So what possible benefit can the freedom of FreeBSD have for you, since it has no technical advantage over its competitors?

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[petrus4]

Actually, the silent implication is that Mac OS X is much better technically than FreeBSD, partly because it's non-free.

That's just fine. If I could afford OSX, I'd at least think about buying it.

Because I can't afford it, however, FreeBSD is as close as it gets.

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[Microlith]

The Free Software Foundation, and its' activism, both need to die if Linux is ever going to become anything more than fringe.

I know, the idea that people should have control (should they desire it) over the hardware they buy and software they use is just -ridiculous-.

if Linux is ever going to become anything more than fringe.

Then someone needs to pick it up and run with it. There's nothing stopping someone from developing a Linux-based OS on level with OS X. No amount of rhetoric from the FSF would interfere.

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[Statecraftsman]

I don't see what so radical about encouraging people to cooperatively develop and share software. It's worked well to bring you the Linux kernel, Firefox, OpenOffice and so many other programs you use. It should also be noted that SoftwareFreedomDay.org like many efforts in free software are not "FSF projects" or the result of mind-control. I find the almost pure altruism in releasing software under the GPL or AGPL refreshing. It's a relief in a world where media, thought, and actions are increasingly controlled by relatively few, powerful interests.

Also, please do not confuse free software advocacy for Linux advocacy. We do not wish that everyone would use a certain kernel or one certain piece of free software. We wish that everyone would use only free software. It's not about technical superiority. It's about allowing each person to use their computer without strict dependence on any single non-free software provider.

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[Anonymous Coward]

You have a completelly distorted view about this matter. What people are doing here is giving away valuable and free information. The average Joe and Jane need to know that they have ever been ripped off whan they by a PC or proprietary software. Maybe you are one more of those that prefer them to be completelly ignorants as then it will be more easy to fool them for your's convenience.

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[Anonymous Coward]

So isn't that a freedom that is working in your favour, not a technical competence of FreeBSD?

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[Reservoir Penguin]

Nazis used various human byproducts such as hair and skin to make comfy pillows and various leather goods, I sure wouldn't use such products even if it was technically superiour to sleeping on rags with a stone for a pillow. Stallman foresaw the future in the moment of clear insight many years ago when he was unable to fix the laser printer. It was a life changing moment for him. You apathy saddens me, you have no values, no desire to change the world for the better.. I feel sorry for you.

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[petrus4]

You apathy saddens me, you have no values, no desire to change the world for the better.. I feel sorry for you.

Actually, from my perspective it's exactly the opposite.

I don't have a problem with Stallman because I'm a jaded, amoral sociopath. I have a problem with Stallman precisely because I'm concerned about the wellbeing of my fellow man.

Richard Stallman is a cult leader, who wants to have control over as many other people as he can. The rest of the FSF's leadership also aren't much different in that regard, either; the group is a playground for megalomaniacs.

The GPL was written in such a manner as to facilitate that control, and every version of the license becomes more restrictive than the last. The FSF's main problem is that they are dominated and driven primarily by fear, paranoia, and hatred; and as the proverb says, you become what you hate.

What that proverb means in the FSF's case, is that eventually we will have a scenario where they have a very restrictive monoculture lock on software, in exactly the same manner as Microsoft. Depending on who you ask, we already have that scenario right now. The BSDs have no choice but to use GCC, because of the FSF's tendency to pollute standards with GNU "extensions," (sound familiar?) such that it is the only compiler which will reliably compile most FOSS software. The Linux kernel is horribly dependent on GCC.

If allowing people to have full control of the software they use is something you're concerned about, there are plenty of non-copyleft licenses which fully allow that, but which don't, to use the words of Ulrich Drepper, allow Stallman to potentially, "screw you when it pleases him."

Also, please take some time to learn about the issues before you simply accuse someone who dislikes the FSF of being psychotic. As stated, we do actually have valid reasons for viewing the organisation as a menace.

Re:Wow Slashdot.

[shutdown -p now]

I don't see what so radical about encouraging people to cooperatively develop and share software.

Nothing, unless by "encouraging" you mean preaching that those who don't will burn in hell, pretty much. The whole "Win7 Sins" campaign reeks of this attitude, and so do most other materials on FSF website.

It's even worse if you ever meet RMS in person. Three friends of mine, all Linux geeks, came to see him when he was in Moscow two years ago. However, they worked for a company which uses Linux in its proprietary products, and not all of the code they write for a living is released under GPL (or other "Free" license), though quite a lot still is. When they mentioned it, he quite aggressively chastised them for betraying the ideals of Free Software. They were extremely disappointed, because they came to listen in hope of hearing something new or interesting - not to a religious gathering! - and felt like being driven away as "sinners".

Also, please do not confuse free software advocacy for Linux advocacy.

I don't; in fact, I dare say they are contradictory. Recommending gNewSense as a first distro to someone - as one of your linked leaflets does - is a sure way to get him extremely disappointed with Linux. That is why you guys are actively harmful to OSS developers who aren't making a religion out of it.

street handout?

[mathfeel]

With ... paranoia about malware and viruses at an all-time high, the time is right to help consumers ...

So trusting someone standing in street corner handing out software is supposed to be...safe?

And how is any advertising different?

[mdwh2]

"Go away" is my reaction to most adverts full stop. However, it would be rather foolish to conclude that therefore advertising has no effect at all.

Wacky is exactly how business works

[mdwh2]

That's the problem with FOSS advocates, they keep coming up with these wacky ideas, and each time they put them into action the public sees.... err, a wacky idea, associated with FOSS.

Yeah, next thing you know they'll be suggesting people have "FOSS house parties" or throwing butterflies around the place. Or maybe they'll come up with an advertising campaign where they use childish and outdated stereotypes of the competition, portraying them as dumb boring businessmen, whilst FOSS is represented by the cool trendy hipster.

If you want to really promote FOSS set up a business based on FOSS and make it work and grow.

Oh I see - if a business does these things instead of a group of people, that makes it okay then.

wacky "I'm a PC"

[mdwh2]

Beats making those "I'm a PC" adverts in the first place.

Re:wacky "I'm a PC"

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe people are tired of all the hipsters in the Mac commercials. "Um, I want a Mac, because um, it just ..works?"

Tagged

[wasabioss]

goodluckwiththat

Oh great...

[Anonymous Coward]

F$F $hills not content with harassing people with their crap online they take to the streets to spread their disease. Stay in your basements where you belong.

Re:Oh great...

[petrus4]

F$F $hills not content with harassing people

Interesting. This is the first time I've ever seen the FSF's supporters being referred to as shills, rather than Microsoft's.

The tide is truly starting to turn, it would seem.

Re:Oh great...

[Anonymous Coward]

The F$F actually has wanted ads for $hills. Hell, if you look at the statements they provided to the IRS you can see they actually do pay people to be $hills.

Re:Oh great...

[Anonymous Coward]

I find this fascinating, while the FSF are a supporter of this project, the hundreds of people who are participating have no particular allegiance, most of them think ubuntu is worth showing off to people, FSF wont enjoy that too much, lots of them hand out free software for windows, again not something that RMS is likely to approve of, still others hand out opensolaris and freebsd, this is something that i think is absolutely ridiculous due to usability concerns more than anything, but i think RMS might have different concerns.

These people are not FSF supporters, they're just enthusiastic and helpful open source fans, they aren't out to badger the public about the evils of proprietary software, but rather to explain what makes the concept of free and open source cool, ok so they aren't going to want to get hold of the source and compile their own but remember that consumers want products that they can trust and an idea of what goes into them, and give them a few really useful example programs.

So, rather than getting involved SFD and explaining to the teams what they're doing wrong, just carry on trolling Linux and the FSF on slashdot, you're doing an excellent job.

Re:Oh great...

[petrus4]

still others hand out opensolaris and freebsd

That's awesome. If it isn't done in a manner which is overly pushy or annoying to people, I love the idea of FreeBSD advocacy! :)

Re:Oh great...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't personally think that setting up a stall and letting passers by engage you in conversation is particularly pushy, this is what the majority of SFDers are likely to have done. This is all about open source software advocacy, not exclusively linux.

Please understand that many people use linux simply because they like it, it has fuck all to do with their politics, they just happen to find their flavour of linux preferable to the other operating systems they've tried, they aren't the hand puppets of the FSF, sent to do RMS's bidding, just people who use a piece of software... You can take the tinfoil hat off, no one's going to GPL your kidneys while you're not looking.

"You dont need to pay for programs that do that.."

[boxxertrumps]

I work in a small computer repair shop in the GTA, and they way I promote FOSS is by putting it on customers machines, if it needed a format.

"Also, these programs are part of our default package, you have 7zip, infrarecorder, oo.org etc which do XYZ and are all available under the same license as firefox, so they're free on the internet."

I've also recommended OO.org to customers looking for MS office and had positive results so far.
The one customer that i've setup debian for has also been very happy. Considering all she does is watch videos on youtube and talk on MSN, i got lucky on the support side of things.

Just letting people know the software exists will get FOSS to where we want it, it's just a matter of time.

Thanks

[MrKaos]

For letting us know with plenty of time to get involved.

Red Hat Microsoft Gentoo Ubuntu || Education Time

[NSN A392-99-964-5927]

I know many Redhat devs that also work for M$. It does not make redhat any more appealing than windows nor is Gentoo more appealing as they steal code from BSD ports. Ubuntu is a debian clone also. Maybe I am disillusioned, but as I understand, graduating to BSD from Linux is the only way to go. IMHO the only honest Linux distro's left are Debian and Slackware, but your average person on the street is not that intelligent anymore. Society has changed whereby people just want to plug things in and work automatically without any use of intelligence whatsoever. The educational process people have to go through takes many years of experience and although I support FOSS, it is going to take a total rethink of how to get people changing their ways. The biggest problem for OpenSource is getting people away from M$ as software developers use "dirty tricks" whereby programs are created to organise a persons life and they end up like possessed people and will not let go because they feel threatened coming out of their "comfort zone". A prime example is doing a Bungee Jump or Parachute jump. For some the "fear of change is immense". The best way I can help people change is show them the software map on sourceforge http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/index.php for them to understand whatever can be done on windows can be done on Linux or BSD. I did not mean to upset some people with this post, it was never my intention, but hopefully you can see things from a different point of view now. Regards, NSN

Re:Too late! MOD UP

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll be giving a lecture of the subject at my uni. I already did it once and it was quite well accepted and quite a few people even showed up. Good experience.

My little presentation was running a flashy openoffice.org impress presentation (in full screen mode) and after the presentation was done I surprised everybody by minimizing the impress window only to reveal a livecd desktop instead of the familiar windoze one. Then I showed everybody around the system a bit and introduced the package manager. In the end we had a lively discussion about various issues like dual booting.

Information is the key, gnu.org is the source. :)

Re:Analogy Fail

[Anonymous Coward]

People have actually heard of AOL. Your average person has never heard of the F$F. Analogy fail.

Re:Red Hat Microsoft Gentoo Ubuntu || Education Ti

[Urkki]

I know many Redhat devs that also work for M$. It does not make redhat any more appealing than windows nor is Gentoo more appealing as they steal code from BSD ports. Ubuntu is a debian clone also.

Maybe I am disillusioned, but as I understand, graduating to BSD from Linux is the only way to go. IMHO the only honest Linux distro's left are Debian and Slackware, but your average person on the street is not that intelligent anymore.

Not sure if you're trolling, but sounds like you've gotten the idea of FOSS somewhat wrong. There's no "stealng code" in FOSS world. The code is free, it can't be stolen. Free code is meant to be used and modified by others. Various derived distributions are not only honest to FOSS ideals, they crystallize what FOSS is all about:
take it if it's great,
improve it if it's not quite good or suitable enough,
roll your own if it's bad.

Re:Red Hat Microsoft Gentoo Ubuntu || Education Ti

[NSN A392-99-964-5927]

I know many Redhat devs that also work for M$. It does not make redhat any more appealing than windows nor is Gentoo more appealing as they steal code from BSD ports. Ubuntu is a debian clone also.

Maybe I am disillusioned, but as I understand, graduating to BSD from Linux is the only way to go. IMHO the only honest Linux distro's left are Debian and Slackware, but your average person on the street is not that intelligent anymore.

Not sure if you're trolling, but sounds like you've gotten the idea of FOSS somewhat wrong. There's no "stealng code" in FOSS world. The code is free, it can't be stolen. Free code is meant to be used and modified by others. Various derived distributions are not only honest to FOSS ideals, they crystallize what FOSS is all about: take it if it's great, improve it if it's not quite good or suitable enough, roll your own if it's bad.

You have just contradicted yourself without changing your mind. Here is the example There's no "stealng code" in FOSS world. The code is free, it can't be stolen. If code is free, it is open to being used. You can vote me as a troll Mr, nonetheless you will never escape the truth.

Re:Red Hat Microsoft Gentoo Ubuntu || Education Ti

[NSN A392-99-964-5927]

I know many Redhat devs that also work for M$. It does not make redhat any more appealing than windows nor is Gentoo more appealing as they steal code from BSD ports. Ubuntu is a debian clone also.

Maybe I am disillusioned, but as I understand, graduating to BSD from Linux is the only way to go. IMHO the only honest Linux distro's left are Debian and Slackware, but your average person on the street is not that intelligent anymore.

Not sure if you're trolling, but sounds like you've gotten the idea of FOSS somewhat wrong. There's no "stealng code" in FOSS world. The code is free, it can't be stolen. Free code is meant to be used and modified by others. Various derived distributions are not only honest to FOSS ideals, they crystallize what FOSS is all about: take it if it's great, improve it if it's not quite good or suitable enough, roll your own if it's bad.

If code is freely available it can be used. Call me a troll if you like, but if you even care to look up the definition of troll here http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/word/troll you will realise your definition of Troll and mine are completely different. You are probably American and have a sense of humour bypass. that would be humor to you as your English is broken.