Slashdot Mirror
Best Developer's Laptop?
s31523 writes "I love my current laptop, but unfortunately on my last trip the primary LCD went bonkers. It's an older Gateway (2 GB RAM Intel Pentium M 2.0 GHz, ATI M7). There are a handful of features I love about it: [1] Hot-swappable drive bay, with several components that can go in: CD/DVD R/W, extra battery, floppy drive, extra hard drive, memory card reader, etc. The extra battery option is especially appreciated — I can go 4-5 hours on battery power. [2] Docking station / port replicator: I like having my home setup with keyboard, network, and dual screens (a necessity). [3] It runs Linux. OK, I'm a wus, I actually have GRUB command three different OS's: Windows 98 (I have really old embedded software compilers that only run on 98, and yes I have tried every trick in the book to make them run on Linux), Windows XP Pro, and Ubuntu. I'm trying to find a replacement setup that offers the same flexibility and a little better performance. I am open to change as well. So, I ask Slashdot: What is your pick for best developer's laptop under $1,200, considering the features above?"
Who can be bothered with that.
Any new laptop is probably going to have a bunch of cores and hardware virtualization, so put ubuntu on that, and virtualize XP and 98.
I go to a lot of developer forums. Be it stuff designed in Java, PHP, Ruby, etc, there is one common thread I've noted of all the developers that present. 8 of 10 presents will use a mac. I switched a few years ago and couldn't be happier. I have VM Ware. Many people use VMs to run various windows versions, I like to use it to run Linux VMs that I eventually move off to other machines. Works fantastic. No need to reboot.
Now, if the OP is a .net person, well, Mac may not be for them. But there's something nice about being able to pop a BSD style terminal window.
ThinkPads also sport a 3-button trackpoint, which is very handy when running X11. In addition, it's not hard to find ones with compatible video and wireless cards.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
ThinkPad has the hotswap bays, excellent Linux support, excellent hardware support and turnaround from the factory, and there's always a 20% off coupon floating around. You can get a T series laptop with discrete graphics and well equipped for that $1,200 you're willing to spend, and probably far less. Not only that, but you generally get higher resolution displays than you get with Dell or Gateway laptops.
As for your Windows 98 installs -- why not use VirtualBox?
- oZ
// i am here.
Weeelll... you can't just nuke it and install anything yet. I tried to install only Linux on the Macbook I have only to find it uses EFI only, so until grub2 makes it into distros and it fully supports the Macbook EFI, you're stuck with having OS X around just to setup bootcamp (and emulate the regular BIOS, I guess)
I have read they don't have all the bugs nailed out in grub2/EFI/Macbooks yet, and this post: http://www.mail-archive.com/grub-devel@gnu.org/msg12901.html looks like it agrees with what I read. His test was done September 22nd...
That's been my experience, anyway. YMMV
Here's to the crazy ones
I use a Thinkpad X61 and it is fantastic (Ubuntu + virtualized XP).
(Previously I had a T43p which was also good.)
For your price requirements and the fact that you like the second battery, I would definitely go with a T series.
It is not just the customer service that is good, the quality is top notch. I've dropped both laptops on tile floors (the T43p twice) with the worst result being a bit of chipped plastic through which you could see the METAL body on the T43p.
Docking station is superb as well (I used it for both, but it is especially great with the X61).
I have also recommended the SL series to some family, but don't have personal experience with it.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seus
But as most/many people know, a virtualized Windows9x installation often doesn't work particularly well. In VirtualBox, it all but doesn't work at all because of the way "idle" time is handled. (I don't recall having much trouble using VMWare workstation long ago however)
Virtualizing instead of multi-booting is a far better idea for me. I use Windows XP on rare occasion and I definitely don't like taking my Linux down to run another OS.
OK, if you want to remove the extra software, go into the factory restore software, and uncheck all of the checkboxes.
The way Lenovo's software works is, it goes through three passes - it installs an image of a clean OS with all packages in a directory, then reboots, installs the drivers, reboots again, then installs the desired packages, then runs sysprep and reboots again.
As for the "pressing on the bottom right corner of the machine" thing... are you resting your finger on the TrackPoint? I've never heard of that problem before, and I bet it's coincidental that you're going for the bottom right corner. Don't rest your finger on it, and if you do, give it 3 seconds to re-center.
The docking stations... ok, I'll give you weird crashes caused by some of them.
And, yes, the actual plastic on ThinkPads of late is incredibly cheap, but the chassis is magnesium, just like the plastic MacBooks, and the only plastic on a non-R-series is the LCD bezel, the keyboard bezel, and the palmrest.
With the quality, performance and price of "PC" notebooks today, you can get better battery time, better performance, better stability for less price. If you're into lightweight, you can get up to 10 hours battery time, for less money today. Just avoid Vista like the plague..
Mind you I am writing this on my Macbook Pro 17" running Windows XP. I can't stand OS X anymore (won't go into details here), so I installed Bootcamp and XP on it and am using it as my main computer now.
However, given the money, I would find a high-quality "PC" notebook (Lenovo or something like that?), with good sound and graphics. It may be hard to find, but with a bit of trial-and-error should be do-able.
The problem with my setup is:
1) Lack of proper BIOS, so forget about GRUB or any "normal" installation of Linux and "alternative" OSes. You are at the mercy of Apple's implementation and upgrades. Yes, you can find ways to work around it, but it's a big pain and it'll be "different" (oh noes!).
2) Had to find the "correct version" of Leopard, and several firmware upgrades, to make Bootcamp work correctly. Not all bootcamp versions give proper driver-support, or can be upgraded freely, and Apple gives only the last official version on their website. Eg. the camera wouldn't work for me until I had searched for a day and found some unofficial bootcamp drivers that both worked and installed correcly (not easy).
3) Utter reliance on Apple's bootcamp to make Windows work at all in native mode. If something goes screwy, eg. with a firmware/Bootcamp/Windows upgrade and Windows Restore doesn't fix it, prepare for hours of reinstalling everything.
4) If something goes wrong, total lack of support. You can't fix things yourself, like firing up a Knoppix disc and extract files. Oh, maybe you can in some obscure way, or pay for yet another Mac-utility, but it'll be a huge pain again.
5) So must rely on backup, and just wipe the partition if something goes really wrong and hope this is enough safety.
6) Windows on Bootcamp makes the computer hot and the fan goes on much more than OS X for some unknown reasons. Maybe because I have an older Macbook Pro, but OS X is better supported for sure.
7) Need third-party apps like Lubbo's Fan Control and Input Remapper installed to get basic "PC"-keys remapped, and better fan control. Not an optimal / supported solution. Macbook keyboard lacks several keys, like home, pgup, pgdn, and it'll take some time to get used to. Not quite as optimal as with these keys, so you rely more on mouse / trackpad.
8) Good solutions hard to find. I was lucky I found these solutions within 1-2 days.
All in all, I got it to work, but it's far from optimal and not somehing I would recommend to even my enemy.
On the other side, the Macbook Pro is great hardware. Great sound, great graphics. Lightweight and large enough to use as main computer. So all in all it is positive compared to most "PC" notebooks.
Best of all, I can use the trackpad all day, something I cannot do on most "PC" notebooks.
So if you're up for an adventure of hacking and travelling down the "bleeding edge" route, yeah, go for it..
But Apple's support for Windows is laughable. Even scrolling using the wheel isn't quite as good as in OS X.
I happen to agree with this poster about the dell laptops. I have had 3, the most current one I run is an Inspiron 8500 and it works very well. the others were also dell laptops.
I think the most important thing I do with my laptop is the cleaning, I bust it open every year, take out all the dust an 4 times a year I just remove the fan and blow that dust out.
it has survived decently well.
if you see me, smile and say hello.
From jaunty:
$ java -version
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_16-b01)
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
If you can, why not save a few bucks and get the "Value Line" or be able to spend the extra money on more RAM, peripherals, etc.... or beer? I see a few features with the Thinkpad line that may be unnecessary for a developer.
It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
Just picked up a Thinkpad T400 and it is nothing short of amazing. Advantages over the macbooks:
* Matte screen w/ WXGA+ LED backlight (new Macbook Pros are all glossy)
* Extremely easy to swap out or replace hardware (new macs have improved this, but not as easy)
* Price (I used the Lenovo IBMEPP site + E-coupons) literally saved over $1100.00 off reg price! (payed ~ $1350.00 loaded)
* Thinkpad keyboard - still one of the best in the world IMHO
* Good Linux or BSD hardware support
* Easy to dual-boot (if necessary) or you could run VM software
* Excellent battery time (i'm using a 6-cell battery) with a script to extend Linux battery life
Couldn't be much happier. When I'm in the office or home I hook up my USB keyboard/Mouse, my large monitor and 500G backup drive (for nightly backups of my subversion DB.).
When I'm out and about the long extension cord comes in handy. So does the two hour battery life. Sure, there are times when I really need to plug in and I can't so the trick is to keep your battery full (charge overnight) and when I hit the cafes I wait for the tables near the power plugs to empty out and jump on those tables. I've not had any problems. YMMV depending on location.
The small size really does mean portable. I've got 160G HD, 1.6G Hz ATOM CPU. Unless your compiling multi-million line projects, I find mine rather comfy. I built the entire boost library in ~1.5 hours.
Now for the killer: less than $300.00!! My last LT cost me almost $3,000.00 but was a PITA to lug around. It's still a fantastic machine but it's been relegated to the special projects heap. If this LT goes, who gives a crap. remove the HD, copy the data from the it (if it didn't make the nightly backups), buy another cheap-ass LT and move on with life.
It runs linux fine. I've been playing with SLAX lately (still a little flaky from a USB key, though) and it's exceeded my needs there, too. The Atheros WIFI card works great. (My HP never got the WIFI working.)
The only draw back I have with the device is its small screen resolution: 1024x600. Yes, that's six hundred.
Now, I've not done it but a friend of mine tells me his son runs WOW on his. I wouldn't run games as there isn't much in the way of cooling for the LT - no bottom fans. Just a large intake vent on the front and a exhaust port on the LHS.
I'm on my second R series. The first one was an R51 and lasted over 2 years on the road and lots of days on construction sites or in oily dusty industrial settings. The LCD started to get vertical lines on it which were multiplying. I always used to pick it up by the LCD though. It is still going strong (nearly 4 years old now) with an external monitor and ubuntu.
I'm on an R61 now and I think it is pretty solid as well. Runs ubuntu great.
I agree with another poster though that the software lenovo loads on with the default XP install absolutely cripples it. what the f are they thinking?
Weeelll... you can't just nuke it and install anything yet. I tried to install only Linux on the Macbook I have only to find it uses EFI only, so until grub2 makes it into distros and it fully supports the Macbook EFI, you're stuck with having OS X around just to setup bootcamp (and emulate the regular BIOS, I guess)
You can install and use rEFIt on an Intel Mac. Of course it's a good idea to keep a bootable OS X partition if no other reason than to update firmware.
To tell the truth I don't know why anyone would pay for a Mac and not use OS X. I'm typing this on my MacBook Pro running Leopard now. I have the Snow Leopard DVD but haven't installed it yet. When I do though I will also install Ubuntu. I already have my hard disk drive partitioned with 2 partitions for OS X and Ubuntu and another one for the user home. Doing this I can use any and all user files in both OSes.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Hm? Laptops are more expensive. But cheaper than a laptop and a desktop. Presumably the guy wants to have the option of taking the thing with him.
Laptops aren't underpowered for development work. They're underpowered for hard core gamers but that's about it. If you find your laptop is underpowered for development you really should be considering what the users of your code might be running it on.
My notebook (MBP) has a full size keyboard, except for the numeric keypad. I've never used the numeric keypad for development, or much else except playing games. If it's an issue I can always plug in a full keyboard if I'm sitting at a desk.
If the screen on your notebook is too small you buy a monitor and hook it up when you're sitting at your desk.
You can use a notebook in the same position you do when sitting at a desktop. Or you can put it on your lap, which is actually one of the best places to have your keyboard (note where keyboard trays are). Or you can use it in your hammock, which is the most ergonomic position I've ever discovered.
For the umpteenth time, a Mac doesn't fit what he needs. There are no Macbooks which offer hot-swappable drive bays or docking ports. And a Dell Latitude with a 9-cell can also use a slice battery and bay drive battery which will get you well over a Macbook's 7 hours. With a solid state drive you can be into double digits of battery life easily.
A Mac fits some needs, some very well in fact, but the submitter is not going to find what he needs from Apple.
If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
* Matte screen w/ WXGA+ LED backlight (new Macbook Pros are all glossy)
Not any more. Matte is available on 15" and 17" at this point.
If you're going to be lugging an extra battery around, just carry a spare.
Yeah, because nothing's quite so convenient as hibernating your laptop, swapping out the batteries, and resuming.
Actually the double-convenience of the swappable bay battery is that if you don't want to lug anything extra around, and you know you need the battery life and not the CD/DVD, you can drop that extra battery RIGHT IN YOUR LAPTOP and don't need to carry it separately. Added bonus: don't waste power spinning up the CD at boot time.
This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
I love mine, and the 6 hour battery life can just about get me through the whole work day without wires.
The above is not worth reading.
The 9400m is not a discrete graphics card. The only Mac laptop you can't get without discrete graphics is the MBP 17".
The best developers laptop is a Thinkpad. End of discussion. There is a Thinkpad model for everyone, and they have the most open-source friendly hardware. There is not a single other manufacturer which provides similiar features in a package as appealing as a Thinkpad. As far as I am concerned, and I have tried to use everything from plastic-fantastic to Dells to expensive Vaios, there is only one option for a serious developer. A used Thinkpad T42, which is in my opinion made for developing software, is to be had for something like $200-$250. A new Thinkpad T400 costs $1000, and a T400s, its slimmer brother and IBM/Lenovos most expensive offering these days, is about $1300.
A 13" MacBook will fulfill some but not all of the requirements listed by the OP (the major missing one being a dock) for $1,200, and it's relatively easy to virtualize and/or dual boot all three major OSes (Windows, Linux, OS X). What more is there?
BookEndz sells a line of docks for Apple laptops but they look kind of clunky to me. Thanks to the USB hub in my display and bluetooth all I have to plug into my 13" MacBook when I sit down at my desk are the power cord, the Mini DisplayPort connector and the USB root connector which takes all of five seconds so I never felt the need to shell out €€€/$$$ for a dock. What really annoys me about the new MacBook Pro line is the built in battery, 7-8 hours of wifi enabled battery life are IMHO irrelevant. I want the ability to swap batteries without having to reach for a screwdriver and if that means having to put up with squeezing only 4 hours of life out of each battery then so be it.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
Yes, and it works great out of the box. I have an Apple 24" LED Cinema Display as my second monitor at 1920x1200. Not only does it work great under OSX, it also works when dual-booting to Windows 7 or other recent Microsoft OS.
Someone hasn't been keeping up with Apple's products it seems. After the outcry in the beginning of the year with the glossy only displays on the MacBook Pro's, Apple actually listened to their customers and brought the option back. You can get matte on the 15" now as well. The 17" has always had the matte finish option and never lost it even with the switch to the unibody design (unlike the 15" which did become glossy only). The 13" is the only one which does not have a matte option, but I don't see that model as being pertinent for the poster's requirements (aside from cost). For development work, you want that larger screen so you can have multiple files or applications open next to each other for writing code (like the program's design document, or API, or even a test window, etc.)
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
I fix laptops for a living and Macs don't seem to be any more or less reliable than other brands.* This is based on fixing around 80 laptops a month.
The main issue is that they are a bugger to work on when things go wrong and the parts are about 2x the price of Acer or Toshiba parts. Sony is the only other brand that rivals them for that.
* Every HP made in the last few years has the nVidia chipset failure problem so they have around a 100% mortality rate after a year or two. Toshibas all seem to get clogged up with dust after a few years and start to overheat, but no brand is immune to that. NECs seem pretty solid and reliable. Acer are also good and parts are cheap (available direct from Acer). Asus are really hit and miss. Advent and Philips are both PC-World own brand (Philips whored their name out) and are cheap rubbish. Packard Bell are nothing special. Thinkpads are very solid and reliable, and parts are generally not too expensive.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Ok... we just bought a macbook for our new developer. And, with all the fixings it came out to $1159.
Kindly STFU.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming