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Design Starting For Matter-Antimatter Collider

couch_warrior writes "The Register is carrying a story on the early design efforts for the next generation of high-energy particle accelerators. They will be linear, and will collide matter and antimatter in the form of electrons and positrons. The obvious question will be: once we have a matter-antimatter reactor, how long till we have warp drive, and will the Vulcans show up for a sneak-peak?"

37 of 191 comments (clear)

  1. obvious question by JimboFBX · · Score: 4, Funny

    The obvious question will be: once we have a matter-antimatter reactor, how long till we have warp drive, and will the Vulcans show up for a sneak-peak?"

    Maybe in a Star Trek convention...

    1. Re:obvious question by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think the Romulans will beat the Vulcans; the Federation uses antimatter, the Romulan warbirds are powered by black holes. The LHC will be online before they even start building the antimatter accellerator.

      I'm amused at what the press is going to be saying when the thing is nearing completion. They worried about Earth being swallowed by mini-black holes generated by the LHC, they'll probably have "Oh noes, antimatter! The whole solar system will blow up!!!" with the antimatter accelerators.

  2. ZOMG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Keptin, I'm giving you all she's got!

    1. Re:ZOMG by smoker2 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Chekov.

  3. Wrong Question by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The obvious question will be: once we have a matter-antimatter reactor, how long till we have warp drive, and will the Vulcans show up for a sneak-peak?"

    Actually, I think the next question would be: "Now how can get some antimatter?"

    It's my understanding that we can only manufacture ridiculously minute quantities of the stuff, and that may take more energy to make than we'll get out of it anyways.

    1. Re:Wrong Question by StrategicIrony · · Score: 3, Insightful

      antimatter is like molecular hydrogen as a fuel for fuel cells. It's more of a storage device of energy than it is a a way to "produce" energy.

      At this point it's terribly inefficient, but theoretically, it could be a viable means of taking an enormous amount of energy and storing it in a small place. :-)

    2. Re:Wrong Question by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 2, Insightful

      At least you don't need to keep electromagnets powered up to store hydrogen...

    3. Re:Wrong Question by 1s44c · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, I think the next question would be: "Now how can get some antimatter?"

      It's my understanding that we can only manufacture ridiculously minute quantities of the stuff, and that may take more energy to make than we'll get out of it anyways.

      It WILL take more energy than we can get out of it. They have to make the positrons first before destroying them.

      The point of this is to see how the particles behave to validate or disprove current theories. This isn't being done to make an unlimited source of energy.

    4. Re:Wrong Question by Archaemic · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you call hundreds of billions ridiculously minute, then maybe.

    5. Re:Wrong Question by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, I do call that minute. Positrons (the cheap stuff) costs ~$25 Billion per gram. "Hundreds of billions" of positrons is a few orders of magnitude less than that (to put it mildly).

    6. Re:Wrong Question by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Informative

      Oh yeah, I love that news wire article.. it was repeated dozens of times in different magazines and news papers. Unfortunately, no-one has bothered to actually track down a reference to a scholarly publication for it. In fact, there is none, the technique was presented at a conference and no-one has reproduced it.. there's no papers quantifying exactly how much antimatter was made and at what temperatures.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    7. Re:Wrong Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Ask for a bulk discount.

    8. Re:Wrong Question by Sockatume · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hundreds of billions still ain't a lot when you're talking about nucleons for use as a fuel. When you annihilate it you should get about ten joules, or enough to raise the temperature of a tiny drop of water by a couple of degrees.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    9. Re:Wrong Question by CarpetShark · · Score: 4, Funny

      Now how can get some antimatter?

      Easy. We can has anticheezeburger. Can removes cheezeburger, put in matter.

    10. Re:Wrong Question by CarpetShark · · Score: 4, Funny

      theoretically, it could be a viable means of taking an enormous amount of energy and storing it in a small place.

      The same effect can be achieved with a swift kick to the nuts.

    11. Re:Wrong Question by CarpetShark · · Score: 2, Funny

      Positrons (the cheap stuff) costs ~$25 Billion per gram.

      Try ebay.

    12. Re:Wrong Question by JustinOpinion · · Score: 4, Informative

      In a PET scan, the positrons are produced as a by-product of a nuclear decay. Basically a radioactive isotope is injected into the person, and this isotope decays over time, emitting positrons. The isotopes are usually generated on-site using a cyclotron. The number of positrons emitted during a PET scan is not so large (each blip on the detector is a single decay event), and a cyclotron is relatively expensive. Producing positrons in this way might be cheaper (per particle) than producing them in an accelerator. (Similar techniques are used as a scientific probe, e.g. positron annihilation spectroscopy.)

      But quotes for the "free market cost of antimatter" are based on the fantastic costs of generating it in an accelerator. The reason being that radioactive decay is suitable for producing positrons that emit from a substance (in every direction), but is not a viable way of capturing said positrons and using them for anything else. An accelerator, instead, can generate anti-particles and capture them (e.g. using magnetic fields) and "keep" them somewhere (e.g. in a storage ring). Also worth noting is that accelerators can create not just positrons (anti-electrons) but also anti-protons, and even "true antimatter" such as anti-hydrogen (positrons + anti-protons), albeit for a very, very short time.

      So depending what kind of antimatter you want, where you need it, and whether or not you need is stored, the price can vary. But all known methods for producing any sort of antimatter require significant input of effort and energy, and are correspondingly expensive.

    13. Re:Wrong Question by lennier · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've always thought the logical solution to space energy needs would be:

      1. Built cluster of giant solar-powered accelerators in close solar orbit, say around Mercury
      2. Automatically refine positrons and antiprotons into cryogenic antihydrogen
      3. Figure out some way of diamagnetic containment using a really strong magnetic field.
      4. Ship tanks of the devil's brew to the outer system
      5. Mix antihydrogen and real hydrogen to make a crude but energetic brute-force rocket. Maybe 1 part anti-H2 to 1000 H2 or something, so you get enough reaction mass. Otherwise it'll all be just gamma rays. That's just a small matter of engineering, anyway.

      6. Explore strange new worlds! Profit from new lifeforms! And if your power supply ever glitches: kablooey! Not much use for lifeboats.

      Look it would make space travel EXCITING and that's the important bit, right?

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  4. Matter / anti matter reactor is not enough by ivan_w · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Unfortunately, a matter/anti matter reactor is not enough to create an Alcubierre drive.. We still need some Exotic Matter.. And a lot of it..

    So .. go back to sleep.. nothing to see here..

    --Ivan

    1. Re:Matter / anti matter reactor is not enough by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm waiting for ZPMs

    2. Re:Matter / anti matter reactor is not enough by ivan_w · · Score: 3, Interesting

      ZPMs (Zero Point Modules) still won't cut it..

      a ZPM (the SG-1/SGA fictuous device) that's suppose to drain energy from empty space is still a device that (supposedly) gets you free regular energy.. no Exotic matter here.. sorry

      --Ivan

  5. Duh! by andre.david · · Score: 5, Informative

    There's a matter-antimatter collider in production since the 1990's. It's called the Tevatron, it collides protons with antiprotons and it is in Illinois.

    1. Re:Duh! by Gromius · · Score: 4, Informative

      And just to add to this. All particle colliders are mater-antimatter colliders, it just doesnt work otherwise (charge conservation) Thats right, every single particle collider where you are annihilating the particle is matter-antimatter.

      Now before somebody says, but the LHC is proton-proton, you suck, the LHC is actually a quark-anti quark or gluon-gluon collider. Protons are not just 3 quarks, due to the strong interaction there is also a sea of gluons and quark-anti quark pairs which carry the momentum of the proton. At the energies of the LHC, this sea becomes important.

      The article is terrible and horribly confused. Reads like something from the Sun (a gutter British newspaper for non Brits).

    2. Re:Duh! by invisiblerhino · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're absolutely right. To jump on the bandwagon, there's been one since at least the seventies, when CERN modified the Super Proton Synchrotron to be a Super Proton-Antiproton Synchrotron. In the meantime, HERA at DESY collided protons and positrons for years... I don't know the history, so not sure when the first one was. In any case, this is definitely not news. The most interesting things about the forthcoming colliders is not whether they use antimatter: to quote Gerard 't Hooft's replies to physics cranks: "Antimatter is routine, and time travel is impossible." The most interesting thing is what they will discover. Additionally, the article totally misses the point. For some reason, they've latched on to a fairly technical accelerator physics topic. CLIC is not proposed to be built any time in the near future (look out for the International Linear Collider first), and wakefields are a purely electromagnetic effect, nothing to do with space and time warping. They are interesting in themselves, and as a possible future accelerator design (google wakefield accelerator).

      --
      xterm -n 8
  6. Matter-Antimatter isnt new by Zorpheus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There were already some electron-positron colliders, the LEP for example. I think the new thing about this collider is that it is a linear and for high energy. In an electron/positron synchrotron the particles are flying in circles, permanently loosing energy to synchrotron radiation. This is why a linear design will allow to achieve higher energies.

  7. "sneak-peak" by 1u3hr · · Score: 2, Interesting
    and will the Vulcans show up for a sneak-peak?

    Peak: top of a mountain.

    And the daily Slashdot malapropism award goes to samzenpus.

    1. Re:"sneak-peak" by zig007 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Screw that. You both have horribly spelled nicks.

      --
      Baboons are cute.
  8. Read the Register article by Kupfernigk · · Score: 2, Interesting
    For once, read TFA. It's quite amusing. And it isn't about what it seems to be.

    It's about wakefields and the possibility of reducing their external effects by detuning. What makes this interesting is that the proposals for next-gen small accelerators are about deliberately using wakefields to achieve very high acceleration over very short ranges, effectively getting particles to surf on laser-induced wakefields.

    The guy with the proposal also manages to give a spectacularly bad example of detuning - bells, anyone? - which fully complies with the Bad Analogy requirements, i.e. detuning is nothing at all like having lots of bells, and the analogy doesn't provide any insight at all into what is happening. Detuning is more like resting a finger gently on a vibrating guitar string.

    All this article really tells me is that wakefields are very hot in particle accelerator research, and efforts are focussing on reducing their unwanted effects as well as extracting more energy from them.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  9. Vogons clear it for an Intergalactic Highway by kubitus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    maybe by Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz himself now back to the poetry

  10. Re:antimatter by CarpetShark · · Score: 5, Funny

    Antimatter is like matter, but with an opposite electrical charge.

    Kind of like your karma points for that comment ;)

  11. Re:antimatter by biryokumaru · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I thought it had something to do with time... Like, positrons were electrons going the other way in time, which is why they annihilate when they collide and produce a photon. Really the electron is hitting a photon and turning around in time. Likewise with pair production. Anyone know if this is right? I honestly think that quantum physics book was chock full of lies...

    --
    When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
  12. Re:Wrong Question - PET by jfb2252 · · Score: 2, Informative

    As preparation for the PET scan you were given an injection with a radioactive tracer which decays via positron emission. The PET scanner doesn't generate any radiation, it simply detects the 511 keV gamma rays produced when the positrons in the tracer annihilate with an electron.

  13. Re:antimatter by Dragonslicer · · Score: 4, Informative

    I thought it had something to do with time... Like, positrons were electrons going the other way in time, which is why they annihilate when they collide and produce a photon. Really the electron is hitting a photon and turning around in time. Likewise with pair production. Anyone know if this is right? I honestly think that quantum physics book was chock full of lies...

    If I remember correctly, that theory comes from Feynman diagrams. It is a pretty interesting theory, and you can get some other very interesting ideas out of it. As with most other aspects of particle physics, how "true" it is can be debated at length, but the mathematics works, which is probably enough for most physicists.

  14. Re:t that's not damped detuning by smolloy · · Score: 2, Informative

    FYI -- I work on this project, and I work with Roger Jones (the guy in the article), so I know a substantial amount about this.

    Your definition of damping is quite right, but your definition of detuning is, in this case, not really what he means. What he means is taking a cavity, and changing its shape in order to "detune" some cells.

    To explain:

    The cavities are traditionally built in such a way that each cell rings (like a bell) at the design frequency of the accelerating rf. Since all of the cells are identical, the beam will excite exactly the same mode frequencies in each one (like a hammer hitting a bell). Since they are resonant with each other, they can and will ring coherently. Thus the amplitude of these modes will be proportional to N^2 (where N is the number of cells).

    If they are made to have slight differences (detuned) that cause their resonant frequencies to be slightly different (but still within the bandwidth of each other due to their finite Q -- so they *can* excite one another), they will ring incoherently. This causes the mode amplitude to be proportional to N.

    Thus, the amplitude of the incoherent ringing will be lower by a factor of N.

    On top of this, they also add absorbing material to take out some of the power (the damping you refer to), and it is this that fits your guitar string analogy, not the detuning that Roger was referring to in the article. Absorbing material cannot change the frequency of the oscillation -- all it can do is remove energy from it, thus damping it's amplitude.

    To go further, yes the differing stiffnesses of the springs under my car *does* look like a system of bells ringing at different frequencies. They are each ringing at a different "pitch" in order to detune any destructive vibrations. Your car analogy, including the absorbing rubber, is almost perfect! :)

    I think the confusion is coming from the fact that this system can use both the absorbing material that fits your guitar string analogy, and the detuning technique that fit's Roger's bells. His analogy *does* describe the system very well, and I hope you can see that now.

  15. Re:antimatter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here's the basic concept: positive-energy antiparticle travelling forwards in time == negative-energy particle travelling backwards in time. Note that in the 'real' world, only positive energies are possible, so we observe both particles and antiparticles with positive energy.

    In a bit more detail:

    The expression for the propagation of the particle contains an oscillating exponential term:

    exp(-i*E*t)

    where E = energy and t = time (hbar is set to 1).

    Using the equivalence I mentioned above, both energy and time are multiplied by -1 for an antiparticle, so we have:

    exp(-i*-E*-t) == exp(-i*E*t)

    - so the net result is the same in reality.

    Feynman diagrams don't show time flow - just 'beginning', 'middle' and 'end'. However all antiparticles are drawn with 'backwards' arrows to reflect the situation described above. Even though in reality they are travelling forwards in time, we can also think of, say, an electron colliding with a photon and then moving away backwards in time, as alluded to in the GP. It's a piece of mathematical trickery or a fundamental underlying truth, take your pick...

  16. Re:antimatter by Dishevel · · Score: 2, Funny

    There can be only 1.

    --
    Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
  17. Re:antimatter by yurtinus · · Score: 2, Funny

    Redundant? No, it was an honest mistake and I really don't think that moderation was fair. It's quite clear he had meant to type "fr1st p0st!!!" but had his hand offset on the home row by one while he was typing. Growing up on Macs which had the little keyboard indicator nubbies under the middle fingers instead of the index fingers, I would frequently type out something in the IRCs and not realize my mistakeuntil I had already told everybody gege tgat;s wgat tiyr nin saud kast buggt!!

    --
    +1 Disagree