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New Kind of Orbit Could Ease Mars Communications
japan_dan writes "An interesting way to enable Earth-Mars communication when the Sun occludes the direct radio line-of-sight: ESA proposes placing a pair of continuous-thrusting relay satellites, using a solar electric propulsion system — one in front and ahead of Mars, the other behind and below — with both following non-Keplerian, so-called 'B-orbits'. This means the direction of thrust is perpendicular to the satellites' direction of flight, allowing them to 'hover' with both Earth and Mars in view. Quoting from the Q&A: 'We found that a pair of relay satellites would only have to switch on their thrusters for about 90 days out of every 2.13-year period, and this solution would only increase the one-way signal travel time by one minute, so it could be effective.'" Here is the paper describing non-Keplerian orbits (PDF).
That's good news for the diplomatic Human / Martian relations.
... to park such a device at L4 or L5, where you wouldn't require *ANY* fuel to keep it in position?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Houston> We haven't talked for a day, what's up?
Mars rover> Hey, I moved one meter!
Houston> No shit!
FYI: there is no article on Wikipedia to describe a non-Keplerian orbit.
Even 2 simple diagrams describing the 2 orbits types would help.
I understand "behind and below". WTF is "in front and ahead"?
Proverbs 21:19
I agree, even 6 year-olds are doing it.
Yeah nothing that NASA has done has affected your life in the positive. Lets just wait for private enterprise to go there.
The only reason private enterprise is able to *think about* real space travel is because they are using the ~40 years of NASA knowledge and research.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/ten-nasa-inventions.htm
Ok so this is really basic, but also aerogel, and a laundry list of other things.
Being on Mars is really cool, and we have learned a lot about it. But as for usefulness it tells us maybe mining Mars wouldn't be that profitable (but did we know that before). But all the stuff they used to get to Mars, that shit trickels down FAST. I mean I personally believe that SSDs on the rovers are wat put them into the main stream. They lasted in a super harsh enviroment orders of magnitude longer than they were supposed to. So keep thinking all NASA produces is cool photos.
My addiction: Arguing with idiots. AKA Slashdot!
This is slightly tangential, but worth noting I think:
This will be handy when we can't afford to lose contact with Mars for even a few days, but there's a bigger problem lurking in inter-planetary communications: bandwidth. We don't really have enough Deep Space Network dishes (particularly, the large 70-m ones) to talk to all of our missions as much as we should. We're sacrificing data collection on billion-dollar missions on a daily basis on the grounds that we don't have enough bandwidth to get it back. When we put people or even just more missions on Mars, that'll only get worse.
Sorry, I tried to read the summary but I didn't make it past 'continually-thrusting'.
What are you doing at a nerd site? Money is the LAST thing a nerd is thinking of when (s)he thinks of space. Space is for technological and scientific advancement. Sue, there will be money made in the future, but private enterprise operates on the next fiscal quarter.
NASA is doing ot because (duh) THERE'S NO MONEY IN SPACE EXPLORATION and money is the only reason for private enterprise to even exist.
Free Martian Whores!
A New Kind Of Science...er...Orbit. I wonder if Wolfram will try to take credit for this, too. Maybe there's an automata to describe it.
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish"
Albert Einstein
To clarify - this sort of "orbital" motion (not really "orbital" since it actively powered) is hardly a new idea. What is relatively new is the fact that you have engines that permit you do do it without prohibitive fuel consumption. It's different from a hovering rocket-propelled lander (like the DC-X) only in scale. The key feature, not clear in the article, is that you are intentionally thrusting along the local vertical, in the direction of gravity, to modify its effects. That was possible and everybody knew about it since, well, Newton figured out gravity. What we haven't been able to do is to maintain it for more than the briefest periods due to excess fuel consumption.
The new part here is the Hall Current thruster, which is ~factor of 10 more efficient than traditional engines. The specific impulse of these is around 1800 seconds (lb-sec of impulse per lbm of fuel- hey I didn't invent the units, I just use them...) compared to maybe 180 for a hydrazine monopropellant thruster. These are not exactly "new" either, the Russkies have been using them for decades. Only recently has the western world begun to develop them, so it's new only in that sense. So the solution they are looking at is now looking reasonably practical, although no doubt still significantly limited by the fuel consumption.
Brett
Would it?
Mars has an aphelion (maximum distance from sun) of 250 Gm, and the Earth has an aphelion of 150 Gm. So when the sun is occluding their line of sight, they are on opposite sides of the sun and are separated by at most 400 Gm. If you had a satellite in the Earth's L4 or L5 point, then this would form a 150,350,400 Gm triangle with Mars. Thus the total signal distance would be 500 Gm. This would add 100 Gm, increasing the transit time by 5.5 minutes (from 22.2 to 27.7 minutes). Not as good as the solution presented but not twice as long.
Placing these in the Earth's orbit, rather than Mars', would have the added advantage of solving the solar occlusion problem for anything we send out into the solar system, not just for things on Mars.
Totally. Why do the Shuttle crews need to get woken up over the radio? Don't they have a clock? maybe a watch? There are self-winding mechanical ones with alarms, no batteries to wear out. It seemed childish in the Apollo age when I was a kid with my own alarm clock for school; it's downright stupid now.
They're interior decorators so it looks great on the inside. If they can meet up with a race of landscape designers everything will be beautiful.
Perhaps we need to arrange an introduction between the Martians and the Magratheans.
"Surely there is a stable point somewhere above the sun?"
No.
Gravity is always pulling you down, but there are places in the solar system where gravity balances out. These are called Lagrange points and space agencies use them as stable places to put spacecraft. If you're not in one of those places, you're happily going to fall on/in-to the object or end up in some sort of orbit going around the object, but you're not going to be motionless or synced up with anything.
All stable points within our solar system (L1/L5) are on the ecliptic plane iirc.
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
First: What is the purpose of 24 hour communications? If you need SOS messaging, signal recovery, or a simple heartbeat, use the sun as the point-of-reference.
Second: A fleet of solar communications satellites could provide a solar GPS system.
Third: These satellites could use Solar Propulsion and "hover" at a fixed distance from adjacent satellites. Solar sails could serve as a foundation for power generation (focused beam) and for data reception.
Downsides: the sun is a noisy place for communications, as well as a dirty place to park objects with large surface areas.
If we're THAT CLOSE to the sun, it would be interesting to see how big a solar sail would need to be for a 364.245 day parking orbit. Use the dark side of Mercury as Network Control.
Since there's barely anything useful on the Moon given the cost of getting it, and there's even LESS useful on Mars
Since you know the exact chemical composition of the entirety of the moon and Mars, would you mind sharing with the rest of us?