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Babies Begin Learning Language In the Womb

Hugh Pickens writes "Science Daily reports findings from a new study which suggest that infants begin picking up elements of what will be their first language in the womb, long before their first babble or coo, and are able to memorize sounds from the external world by the last trimester of pregnancy, with a particular sensitivity to melody contour in both music and language. Newborns prefer their mother's voice over other voices and perceive the emotional content of messages conveyed via intonation contours in maternal speech (a.k.a. 'motherese'). 'The dramatic finding of this study is that not only are human neonates capable of producing different cry melodies, but they prefer to produce those melody patterns that are typical for the ambient language they have heard during their fetal life, within the last trimester of gestation,' said Kathleen Wermke of the University of Würzburg in Germany. Wermke's team recorded and analyzed the cries of 60 healthy newborns, 30 born into French-speaking families and 30 born into German-speaking families, when they were three to five days old. The recordings of 2,500 cries as mothers changed babies' diapers, readied babies for feeding or otherwise interacted with the youngsters show an extremely early impact of native language, with analysis revealing clear differences in the shape of the newborns' cry melodies, based on their mother tongue."

250 comments

  1. Genetics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    How do we know that genetics didn't play a role in the formation of their vocal cords, changing the way they utter their first cry?

    1. Re:Genetics by pclminion · · Score: 1

      In a way that correlates nicely with their parents' native language? Are you asserting that one's native language is also genetically determined?

    2. Re:Genetics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Not at all, but we may as well assert that a baby has some sort of choice in the color of their skin because they want their mother to have a higher chance of bonding with them.

      There are inherent differences in the way different races develop (dark skinned people with higher chances of skin cancer, eastern-Asians with lower average height than Europeans, etc). I just think it's silly to say that because the baby cries tended to correlate to characteristics of the mother language that they are learning basic language traits from the womb.

      I'm not saying that it isn't happening, I just think it's something worth more study.

    3. Re:Genetics by Phroggy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This study doesn't show it, but there are ways of testing for that. For example, I know someone who was born in China and adopted by American parents. Genetically she's 100% Chinese, but culturally 100% American. Now, let's say she marries a guy who's also genetically Chinese but speaks English, and they have kids. Their children will not be exposed to Chinese language prior to birth. I would expect that the babies, while genetically 100% Chinese, will cry like Americans (insert joke here).

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    4. Re:Genetics by Emerssso · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because vocal fold size determines a range of pitches available to the speaker, whereas phrase-level tone contours are language based and proportionate/relative. You can't genetically determine that any more than you can other aspects of a language's lexicon.

    5. Re:Genetics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Except most "pro abortionists" still don't agree with terminating a pregnancy THAT late. The sane ones only think abortion is okay if it's done before the brain develops in the first trimester.

    6. Re:Genetics by MichaelSmith · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have had exposure to this situation. My wife and her family are native Cantonese speakers but live in an English speaking country. In her brothers family there was a huge fight over whether their two kids would be raised as Cantonese or Mandarin speakers (their mother speaks Mandarin).

      When I went to their place the kids would approach me and ask me to take them to the park, speaking in broken English. So I would take them out and as soon as we got out of earshot their English would become perfect and they would explode with conversation. More recently their mother took her daughter to swimming lessons. She apologised to the teacher about the poor state of her childs English. After the lesson the teacher told her that actually there is nothing wrong with that girls english.

      Children soak up the language which is being used around them, regardless of their parents origin, native language or what is being used in the home. If a western family moved to Japan and hardly let the kids out of the house the kids would still become perfect Japanese speakers. I don't think genes have anything to do with it.

      But the children often hide their language ability from their parents. They don't want their parents to feel bad about their children learning from sources outside the home.

    7. Re:Genetics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if that person you know could try these kids out with chopsticks and see if they have an edge Larry David wants to know..

    8. Re:Genetics by repapetilto · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually I will unconsciously start speaking in broken English if Im around other people who do it for long enough... so I dont think thats a phenomenon limited to childhood.

    9. Re:Genetics by arminw · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...Actually I will unconsciously start speaking in broken English...

      I once consciously spoke in broken English, while visiting Germany, even though I can speak German without any accent. The reason was that I wanted to get out of a traffic ticket and it worked.

      --
      All theory is gray
    10. Re:Genetics by fbjon · · Score: 1

      Should be simple enough to find out, given a third group of 30 adopted children.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    11. Re:Genetics by Alex+Belits · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      A calculator program on my celphone knows more about language than any human will until he is 8 years old. Make it 14 for "pro-lifers'" kids.

      (and I can't wait to ditch that phone after I'll get a better one).

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    12. Re:Genetics by FST777 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hi, the Netherlands here.

      You can abort until the 24th week of pregnancy. This line is drawn since with 25 weeks, the infant would have a decent chance of surviving when born.

      I've seen my daughter (born 2 weeks ago) on a sonogram being 12 weeks old. Everything is there, alive and (in this case) wildly kicking. Almost every "pro abortionist" will tell you that it should be OK for a woman to end an unwanted pregnancy at 12 weeks.

      DISCLAIMER: I don't know where I stand on this matter. I know how I feel about it, but I'm not completely able to rationalize it into a proper point of view.

      --
      Free beer is never free as in speech. Free speech is always free as in beer.
    13. Re:Genetics by tonycheese · · Score: 1

      As funny as this sounds, I completely agree with this. When I chat with people from Singapore or some other areas online, I get into the habit of omitting certain "extraneous" words, like pronouns or articles. The habit doesn't seem to stick with me when I talk to other people, only with them.

    14. Re:Genetics by iamacat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Legality of abortion has nothing to do with the fetus being able to feel pain or hear words. From ultrasounds I think everyone can clearly see many behaviors we associate with being alive or being human. The question is weather anyone is willing to take responsibility for life, health and future of both the mother or the baby. Do we keep a mentally disturbed teenager in chains until she gives birth so that she can not possibly jump of the bridge or otherwise harm herself or the baby? Will anyone make sure that a severally mentally disabled child doesn't spend decades being abused and neglected in an institution after his/her parents pass away? Is government more qualified than prospective parents to decide what constitutes a quality of life worth winning.

      Thus, although I believe that abortion (where there is otherwise a possibility of a life with happiness, dignity and without constant suffering) is a horrible thing, I also do not believe that a legal ban is any more humane. We need many solutions that will require others in the society to make sacrifices at least by paying taxes. For example, families with Down's child will often have their marriage and future of other children screwed if they don't have some part time place to drop off the child once in a while and get a break. Even with multitude of options, a few parents may still decide on abortion and they should be allowed to.

    15. Re:Genetics by tonycheese · · Score: 1

      Huh? Did you speak broken German or English? Confused...

    16. Re:Genetics by repapetilto · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well youre using telegraphic speech, only including the sounds most important in conveying your meaning. I think the reason for this is that it raises the signal to noise ratio by limiting the number of sounds the non-native speaker needs to decode, allowing them to fill in the missing pronouns, etc after youve said whatever it is youre saying, rather than doing it as your making the important sounds(the signal).

      (the noise=processing of possible interpretations of that sound, the size of the set will vary inversely with how familiar you are with the language)

    17. Re:Genetics by Dachannien · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm confused, too, but maybe that's because I no speaka da English.

    18. Re:Genetics by andrewme · · Score: 1

      A calculator program on my celphone knows more about language than any human will until he is 8 years old. Make it 14 for "pro-liars''" kids.

      There. Fixed that for you.

    19. Re:Genetics by jamesh · · Score: 1

      but culturally 100% American.

      Except for the fact that her brain was molded at least a little by being in the womb of a chinese-speaking woman :)

      There is plenty of egg swapping going on these days, either a woman 'renting out' her uterus for a couple who can't otherwise have children themselves, or where a woman is implanted with an egg that isn't hers, because her eggs are defective. In the latter case the egg is normally chosen from a woman who is similar in appearance to the owner of the uterus, so the child looks at least a little like its mother, so maybe that wouldn't be a good test. There is also the odd occurrence where the wrong egg is implanted due to an error on the part of the hospital.

      There should be enough entropy available to rule genetics out as a causal factor.

    20. Re:Genetics by AniVisual · · Score: 1

      I am a person born to parents who do not speak good English (They're Chinese). Around my friends, I speak perfect English. It is not a matter of hiding. It is a matter of communication. By employing a similar tone and vocabulary as my mother, I like to think that that communicates that we are on the same page. Otherwise I will feel a little like an outsider.

    21. Re:Genetics by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Where would you find 30 children adopted before they were born?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    22. Re:Genetics by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      You can find some papers on this subject if you look in old anthropology journals. It's basically a tribal reflex. Tribes are hostile to outsiders and variations in language are one of the ways they detect outsiders (as are skin colour, hair colour, and so on). Adopting the speech mannerisms of the tribe that you find yourself in is a strong survival advantage for the individual and so the people who did this reflexively survived.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    23. Re:Genetics by fbjon · · Score: 1

      Good point; 30 surrogate mothers then, which may be a little more difficult.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    24. Re:Genetics by troll8901 · · Score: 1

      It's basically a tribal reflex.

      I assure you, in the case of speaking to Singaporeans, if you speak to them using proper English, they may not understand you immediately, and may re-parse your sentences mentally before they understand what you're saying.

      (It also doesn't help that some Singaporeans are downright rude; speaking to them with broken English is necessary to reduce the sting of receiving rude replies from these people.)

    25. Re:Genetics by rock_climbing_guy · · Score: 1

      I recently took a trip to Mexico. I speak a small amount of Spanish, but when someone approached me in a parking lot wanting to sell me a car-wash for my cheap rental car, all I said was "No hablo espanol" ( I don't speak Spanish ). How convenient!

      --
      Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
    26. Re:Genetics by Schadrach · · Score: 1

      Why are we insulting the intelligence of politician's children again. I mean it's not their fault whose family they were born into...

    27. Re:Genetics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thus, although I believe that abortion (where there is otherwise a possibility of a life with happiness, dignity and without constant suffering) is a horrible thing...

      There is always the possibility of a life with happiness, dignity, and without constant suffering, thus abortion is always a horrible thing.

    28. Re:Genetics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      God came to me in a dream last night. He told me that He recognizes that sometimes sacrifices must be made, and that in large groups humans are too stupid to be able to decide what is "right" and "wrong". He did not say that He 100% supports abortion, but that any decisions to abort should be between Himself, the mother, her doctor, and no one else.

    29. Re:Genetics by iamacat · · Score: 1

      There is always the possibility of a life with happiness, dignity, and without constant suffering, thus abortion is always a horrible thing.

      How do you know that? There are plenty of disorders that result in death within a couple of months or mental retardation so severe that no communication is possible. Did you go and ask them if they are happy or suffering. Do you feel you are more qualified to make the decision than well-informed parents?

    30. Re:Genetics by iamacat · · Score: 1

      Did this God of yours also suggest that the father has at least a moral right to be involved in the decision? (doctor and the God don't get a legal right either, so I guess I'll deal).

    31. Re:Genetics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actually asked Him that exact question, if the man who impregnated the mother should be involved in the decision, and He said no and was kind enough to explain why. God reminded me that He is all knowing, that He is the ultimate authority on morals. As such, realistically He is the only one who _needs_ to be involved in the discussion, but He told me that the doctor may be involved as well since it will be the doctor performing the abortion. But He also explained to me that that does not mean the mother should keep it a secret from the man.

  2. Isn't this child abuse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Surely teaching languages like French and German to poor, defenseless, not even yet born babies breaks some law.

    1. Re:Isn't this child abuse? by joocemann · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      John Kerry actually looks kinda french.

      Freedom Haters!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDq8bEjhs7Q

    2. Re:Isn't this child abuse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see a problem with this. I personally support legalizing abortion well into the 80th trimester.

    3. Re:Isn't this child abuse? by dgatwood · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Nah, the Republicans fully support post-birth abortions, and in record numbers.

      <sarcasm>There's nothing wrong with frying an innocent man, just as long as you don't kill an undifferentiated bundle of cells that might become a man. Taking the life of a fully-grown adult convicted of a serious crime is perfectly fine... even in states like Texas with a long history of false convictions, cases overturned *after* executions due to DNA evidence that the state deliberately barred that would have cleared the defendants, etc.</sarcasm>

      Anyone who chooses a Republican who supports capital punishment over a Democrat merely because of the Democrat's support for abortion needs to seriously rethink his or her values.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    4. Re:Isn't this child abuse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "chug-a-lug chug-a-lug"

    5. Re:Isn't this child abuse? by LaughingCoder · · Score: 1

      Anyone who chooses a Republican who supports capital punishment over a Democrat merely because of the Democrat's support for abortion needs to seriously rethink his or her values.

      I agree, and of course at the same time anyone who chooses a Democrat who opposes capital punishment over a Republican merely because of the Republican's opposition to abortion needs to seriously rethink his or her values.

      It's all a matter of perspective.

      --
      The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
    6. Re:Isn't this child abuse? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming you meant to say "merely because of the Republican's support for capital punishment". No disagreement here.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    7. Re:Isn't this child abuse? by LaughingCoder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually I said what I meant. Your post was questioning the consistency of being pro-capital punishment and anti-abortion, which is common among people who vote Republican. Likewise, I was questioning the consistency of being anti-capital punishment and pro-abortion, which is common among people who vote Democrat. Both of these combinations reflect people who are inconsistent in their "values".

      --
      The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
    8. Re:Isn't this child abuse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      As someone who supports both capital punishment (though not the current implementation*) and abortion, I fail to see the inconsistency with someone who is against capital punishment but supports abortion.


      *The 8th Amendment clearly stipulates that no cruel and unusual punishments should be inflicted, and the current tortuous methods employed in the death penalty are cruel (by way of torture being cruel).

      While some sickos out there may, through the nature of the crimes they are convicted of, deserve to have their flesh ripped from their bones and their still-beating heart sliced to bits while still in the ribcage, and some might say such sickos are undeserving of the 8th amendment protections since they broke the law so why should the law protect them, our founding fathers recognized that government is largely stupid and put in the 8th amendment as a check against it interacting with us, not us interacting with each other or it.

    9. Re:Isn't this child abuse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doubt I'll see a reply to this, but...

      80th trimester.
      Minus 3 trimesters pre-birth.
      Divided by 4 (1 trimester == 3 months, 4 trimesters per year).
      Equals age 19.25.

      Not that I disagree with you (I'd go even further, 100+ even, haven't decided how far I'd go though), but why'd you chose such an odd age? Or, like I just did by stating 100+, did you simply pick a number well below your actual limit?

  3. Dramatic Findings by Phroggy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm glad we have scientific evidence to back it up, but did anyone believe this wasn't the case? Is anybody surprised by these findings?

    --
    $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
    $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    1. Re:Dramatic Findings by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In hindsight, all scientific findings are "obvious" and "just common sense". What people forget to mention is that before the finding, there were about 200 competing, equally obvious and common sense based theories on what was happening.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    2. Re:Dramatic Findings by joocemann · · Score: 1

      I am. I didn't know, and what I know now is very cool compared to what I would have assumed. I am surprised.

    3. Re:Dramatic Findings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am...?

    4. Re:Dramatic Findings by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      I know I wanted a Discovery or TLC show quite a few years ago that stated this same thing. I don't know why this is 'new' news.

      If you speak french to a french baby, they calm down. If you speak another language (with radically different phonemes) they don't respond to it any different than a random noise.

    5. Re:Dramatic Findings by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      In hindsight, all scientific findings are "obvious" and "just common sense". What people forget to mention is that before the finding, there were about 200 competing, equally obvious and common sense based theories on what was happening.

      OK, but in this case... were there really 200 competing theories? I thought this was generally assumed (if not proven), going back a couple of decades?

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    6. Re:Dramatic Findings by Emerssso · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Assumed by some child language acquisition specialists, yes. Assumed by the ones who are scientific about their research, probably not.

      As I understand it, we have a fair amount of information about children responding to other phonetic and phonological aspects of the language(s) spoken around them, but there hasn't been any other research on prenatal language acquisition.

    7. Re:Dramatic Findings by Emerssso · · Score: 1

      What you're talking about (phonemic recognition by babies) doesn't happen until a few months after birth (I don't know the exact time, as by book on the topic is currently on loan). Until that time, they will respond equally to phonemic inventories not of their native language.

    8. Re:Dramatic Findings by icebike · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm glad we have scientific evidence to back it up, but did anyone believe this wasn't the case? Is anybody surprised by these findings?

      Actually I dismissed these "findings" as utter nonsense as soon as the word CRYING was followed by the word MELODY.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    9. Re:Dramatic Findings by aynoknman · · Score: 1

      This is a bunch of balderdash ...
      When I was in the womb my mother used to play a bunch of old scratchy vinyl LPs, but that didn't affect me...fect me...fect me...fect me...fect me...fect me...fect me...fect me...fect me...fect me

      --
      We need a "+1 -- nice sig" moderation.
    10. Re:Dramatic Findings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Read some Thomas Kuhn - most of what scientists do is "mopping up" - making SURE that the things we THINK are true, really ARE true. Most scientists are not out there looking to discover the unexpected.

    11. Re:Dramatic Findings by Main+Gauche · · Score: 1

      Except in this case, there was already theory and evidence. See citations here.

      OP is right; this is not novel, but merely adds to existing evidence.

    12. Re:Dramatic Findings by MinistryOfTruthiness · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People have been playing music to babies in the womb for years. Many parents are encouraged to speak to their baby while in the womb so the baby learns the sounds of mommy's and daddy's voice. Not new, but it puts some more scientific evidence to what any parent with a kid under 20 (or more?) could have already told you.

      Babies get excited and kick when there's commotion outside too -- loud noises and such. They are listening, and with fairly developed infant brains, it's no surprise that they begin getting accustomed to common sounds and tones they hear going on around them.

      The only thing stopping this from being painfully obvious is the fact that people don't seem to believe that the baby exists in any real form until it's born. Academically, sure, but for 40 years liars and idiots have tried to tell us that it's not a baby until it's born. "Revelations" like this story will always surprise people who have bought into such intellectual dishonesty. There's no switch that says to the baby brain, "Okay, you're born now, start acting like a real brain." By birth, it's been working like that for many months, and doing what brains do: learning.

      --
      "I know that every word that man just said is true, because it's EXACTLY what I wanted to hear." -- Space Ghost
    13. Re:Dramatic Findings by coolsnowmen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are plenty of ground breaking scientific findings that were not obvious. They fall under the category paradigm-shifting findings.

      --Evidence that suggested all things accelerate downward equally (neglecting air friction)
      --Evidence that suggested the world was spherical
      --Evidence that the earth was not at the center of...well anything
      --Evidence that suggested time was reletive
      --Evidence that things are made up of atoms and not Earth,Fire,Water,Air
      --DNA ...

    14. Re:Dramatic Findings by arminw · · Score: 1

      ...Babies get excited and kick when there's commotion outside too....

      This is nothing new. This was written in the Bible almost 2000 years ago:

      Luke 1:40 And she entered into the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.
      Luke 1:41 And it happened as Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,

      This seems to indicate however that it is the mother's hearing that somehow communicated to the baby in her womb. It is not unreasonable to expect there to be a communications channel between a mother and her unborn child. Apparently, the mother does more than only supply whatever nutrients a baby needs before it is born.

      --
      All theory is gray
    15. Re:Dramatic Findings by tool462 · · Score: 1

      In hindsight, all scientific findings are "obvious" and "just common sense".

      Except for quantum physics. The more you "understand" it, the less sense it makes.

    16. Re:Dramatic Findings by raddan · · Score: 1

      But the most interesting thing is when the "common sense", "obvious" explanation turns out to be wrong. Science is full of examples like this, e.g., theories about light during the turn of the century. The new, better theories turned out to be so much weirder than anyone had imagined.

    17. Re:Dramatic Findings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm glad we have scientific evidence to back it up, but did anyone believe this wasn't the case? Is anybody surprised by these findings?

      I thought we all knew this since before we were born.

    18. Re:Dramatic Findings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does that say about the argument that a fetus is just a "mass of tissue" and not "human" or "alive" until it's born?

    19. Re:Dramatic Findings by Panoptes · · Score: 1

      There's nothing new in this study - phoneticians have known for years that it's possible to identify a baby's mother-tongue from its earliest babblings. My phonetics professor, back in 1976, gave a lecture on this very subject.

    20. Re:Dramatic Findings by ittybad · · Score: 1

      Somehow, it doesn't seem surprising -- I'm surprised that this made slashdot. We learned in a speech pathology class I took at my university in 2001 that language exposure in the womb was important and contributed to the language development of the child. That was nearly a decade ago (for those of you who have trouble subtracting years...)

      --
      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood.
    21. Re:Dramatic Findings by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      I can't remember who said it, but one of my favourite quotes about science is:

      The most exciting exclamation in science is not 'eureka' it's 'that's odd...'

      Most of the major discoveries in science come from testing things that you think are true and finding that they are not. Along the way, you are bound to test a lot of things that you think are true and really are.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    22. Re:Dramatic Findings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Always amazes me how it takes millions of dollars to prove what is already common knowledge. Any mom could have already told you this.

    23. Re:Dramatic Findings by BoothbyTCD · · Score: 1

      I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the goals of the scientific process. Unfortunately you are not alone, since this sort of comments pops up in every science thread on this site.

      --
      snig
    24. Re:Dramatic Findings by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      I don't think quantum theory, or relativity theory were will ever be seen as "obvious". ^^

      I mean, quarks in protons?? Electrons being wave fields too? Entanglement? Superconducting materials? Black holes? Schrödinger's cat? *Relative* *time* as gravity-dependent space warping?? I mean, just freakin' *wow*!

      I think it is more often than not, that the correct theory looks in fact batshit insane to everyone on the planet. *Including* the one who came up with it! :)
      No writer can ever come up with things as crazy as reality. Just wait for the first aliens! I bet money on the scientists who see them declaring them as "not life" for at least a decade, because they don't contain the "basic ingredients" of "life". ^^

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    25. Re:Dramatic Findings by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the goals of the scientific process. Unfortunately you are not alone, since this sort of comments pops up in every science thread on this site.

      On the contrary, I think it's great that they've done this; I'm not questioning the motivations behind the science. I'm questioning the reaction to it. It's cool that science has confirmed what I thought we all generally sort of assumed. I'm surprised that apparently some people had assumed otherwise.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  4. Interesting but dubious by bargainsale · · Score: 5, Informative

    Discussed here by someone who actually knows about this stuff:

    http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1869

    --
    Aberrations have appeared in my destiny prognostication engine!
    1. Re:Interesting but dubious by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I like the last paragraph: "Oh, and the journalistic generalizations were false as an expression of the authors' findings. Of course."

      Of course. Sigh.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    2. Re:Interesting but dubious by Dausha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So, your point is best summarize by a comment found on that link:

      "'This technique of cherry-picking atypical "typical" values for rhetorical effect is[...]'

      "I would have completed this sentence 'intellectually dishonest[.'] Contrasting that with the way you completed it is a rather sad comment on scientific publishing, especially if this piece has already passed peer review without any of the reviewers finding this worthy of comment."

      My experience is this situation is more common than not: that even peer-reviewed scientific papers are conclusory, generally in the direction of bias of the specific field (or at the very least, in the direction of the peer-reviewers.

      --
      What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
    3. Re:Interesting but dubious by cvd6262 · · Score: 1

      Which is why replication so important.

      The lang blog guy hypothesizes that the differences might not be found in replication. Great. The study is pretty straight forward, go replicate it. It seems something that a few grad students in a seminar could knock out in a semester. Go for it.

      --

      I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.

  5. So... when? by Jhon · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    infants begin picking up elements of what will be their first language in the womb

    When is it human? When is it a person? How early is "abortion" ok?

    Hate to be "off topic", but that line above really sparked the question.

    1. Re:So... when? by coolgeek · · Score: 1

      Didn't it say "in the last trimester"? Abortions after 24 weeks are illegal.

      --

      cat /dev/null >sig
    2. Re:So... when? by joocemann · · Score: 1

      I will admit that this information has influenced me in my perspective of this topic.

    3. Re:So... when? by DigiShaman · · Score: 2, Informative

      Depends on the country you live in. Here's a chart of criteria/country.

      http://www.pregnantpause.org/lex/world02.htm

      Interesting to note, USA, Sweden, and North Korea have something in common. I've leave the exercise for the viewer to figure out what that is.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    4. Re:So... when? by bennomatic · · Score: 1

      And apparently, after they're born, they remain human their whole lives. When is the "death penalty" OK? Hate to be "off" the "off topic", but I figure if we're looking for controversy...

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    5. Re:So... when? by Phroggy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Didn't it say "in the last trimester"? Abortions after 24 weeks are illegal.

      But this delineation is entirely arbitrary, based on "what would make a significant number of people uncomfortable" rather than on science. Are they human beings at 25 weeks? Not human beings at 23?

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    6. Re:So... when? by weave · · Score: 1

      I've often wished reasonable scientific methods could determine when a life becomes sentient/aware and define that as having the same legal protections as born people. It's unfortunate that each side on the debate will not compromise and find a reasonable standard. One one side you have some pro-choice people who think nothing of killing a perfectly viable fetus and the horrors of partial-birth abortion, and on the other side you have pro-life people who are against even the day after pill because a conception may have occurred. Sorry folks, but a zygote that has no brain yet is incapable of being self-aware.

      Define a time in a pregnancy when the fetus starts to develop a brain and possible self-awareness and just cut the line there.

      I have a feeling that's pretty early, like 2 months in. But if abortions were illegal after that point, decisions would be made sooner.

      Of course if the mother's life is in danger, that's a different issue -- as is that pre-determined "Trig" factor and whether it's ethical to abort based on parental convenience issues.

      But starting somewhere using scientific reason and logic to me would be refreshing. I don't buy that a week or two old fetus is a "person" any more than a brain dead accident victim is, to whom it's legal to remove life support from and let die. The "potential" and soul argument is mainly a religious one and shouldn't be a factor. If your religious beliefs believe that, then don't have an abortion.

    7. Re:So... when? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Uh...... hate to break it to you, but that chart is wrong. In at least the US, on-Demand abortions come with severe restrictions. Notably, they don't happen after the third-trimester.

      I'm pretty sure that site isn't an authoritative source, if for no other reason that it refers to "pro-lifers" and "pro-abortionists". The chosen terminology by each group is pro-life and pro-choice. Respect it.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    8. Re:So... when? by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Why? The experiment points out that babies may only begin to be influenced by their native language during the last trimester, and the vast majority of abortions happen in the first (late-term abortions are only ever performed when the health of the mother is in jeopardy), well before the brain is developed sufficiently to be considered "alive".

    9. Re:So... when? by bennomatic · · Score: 2, Informative

      Interesting to note, USA, Sweden, and North Korea have something in common. I've leave the exercise for the viewer to figure out what that is.

      And the anti-abortion set apparently think that even Afghanistan is too liberal a country. Without even looking at the rest of the site, the color scheme tells me that this list is compiled by nut jobs. I find it amazing that Angola and Egypt get yellow flags for allowing abortion if the woman's life is in danger only--respectively--in the first trimester or if the pregnancy is the result of rape.

      El Salvador, Malta and Vatican City, however, all get green flags across the board.

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    10. Re:So... when? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      In at least the US, on-Demand abortions come with severe restrictions. Notably, they don't happen after the third-trimester.

      Umm, birth happens at the end of the third trimester, so abortion is pretty much impossible after the third trimester.

      But if you meant "during the third trimester", then in the USA it's just a function of what State you choose to have your abortion in, and what doctor you use. Some are more easygoing than others about what "to save the life of the mother" means.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    11. Re:So... when? by joocemann · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is a difference between when the 'vast majority of abortions happen' and my own opinion/perspective on abortions. And this information has served to inform me further on a related topic to reproduction/abortion. That is why.

      I'm being vague because this topic is very controversial and I don't have the time or interest to get into it again. I just wanted to point out that this information is related and informative.

    12. Re:So... when? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Abortions after 24 weeks are illegal.

      Not in the USA. Abortion rules vary from State to State, of course, but no State has been able to successfully forbid abortions based on time since conception. They can just restrict it slightly by specifying restrictions that are easily overcome of the right doctor is found.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    13. Re:So... when? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Sorry, yes, that was supposed to read "during" the third trimester.

      You're going to have to demonstrate that "to save the life of the mother" is equivalent to "i can't live with a child" in most states. Other wise, I'm going to have to assume that it is exactly as stated "to save the life of the mother", and that's definitely not a choice that the mother makes.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    14. Re:So... when? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      And interestingly, South America, with one of the most restrictive set of abortion laws, has about as many or more abortions than the more liberal countries.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    15. Re:So... when? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      USA it's just a function of what State you choose to have your abortion in, and what doctor you us

      Correct. I'm sure that depending on your situation, you could drive to the respective states for the procedure to be performed. I'm thinking that chart of the USA was based on the lowest common denominator of laws with regards to the 50 states that make up the nation.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    16. Re:So... when? by cathector · · Score: 1

      i am a scientist,
      but i'm not sure science is the right vehicle to explore that question with.
      science can provide input, such as "it develops a heartbeat at such-and-such a time" or "it first contemplates its soon-to-be navel at T = 20 weeks" or whatever, but it should obviously be up to [each] culture to interpret those data w/r/t deciding when it's human-enough-to-no-longer-be-abortable.

      also, this seems like a well-trod and somewhat tedious subject, as well as totally off-topic.

    17. Re:So... when? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Yes, that is interesting. However when looking globally, the most religious countries are the ones with the most abortion law restrictions. Seems that Islamic countries lead on this front.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    18. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have to keep in mind that most pro-life/pro-execution people are also hunters - that explains the contradiction. They don't want to kill the unwanted children before birth - you've got to let them grow up, THEN kill them.

    19. Re:So... when? by gak001 · · Score: 1

      I actually just recently read a rather though-provoking article regarding the legal implications of personhood. http://coloradoindependent.com/41283/anti-abortion-%E2%80%98personhood%E2%80%99-measures-shrink-the-rights-of-women The problem with putting certain restrictions on abortion is it creates rights for the fetus that could lead to a reduction in the personhood rights of the mother, turning her into a complicated egg. It's an extremely complicated issue. One that, in my humble opinion, should be left to the woman, her doctors and spiritual advisers.

    20. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure that site isn't an authoritative source, if for no other reason that it refers to "pro-lifers" and "pro-abortionists". The chosen terminology by each group is pro-life and pro-choice. Respect it.

      That makes about as much sense as someone saying the correct terminology was pro-abolitionism and pro-labor-choice. Have the guts to call it what it is, not some wishy-washy euphemism.

    21. Re:So... when? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Correct. So, do you want the US to be like the various Islamic countries that lead on this front? Just checking, because that has a number of implications on other fronts.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    22. Re:So... when? by mooingyak · · Score: 1

      And according to the same site, they also have it in common with:

      Albania, Australia, Bahrain, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia, Cambodia, Canada, China, Croatia, Cuba, Denmark, Estonia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Netherlands, Norway, Slovenia, Vietnam, Yugoslavia.

      I thought there was no more Yugoslavia.

      That makes for a fairly random looking list of nations.

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    23. Re:So... when? by Artraze · · Score: 1

      > But this delineation is entirely arbitrary, based on "what would make a significant
      > number of people uncomfortable" rather than on science. Are they human beings at 25
      > weeks? Not human beings at 23?

      Well, scientifically, they are developing, so if they are certainly human beings after birth, and not before conception, they are some fraction thereof (0-100% inclusive) during the interim. One could, I suppose, construct a sort of Schrodinger's baby scenario to determine percent humanity based on probability of successful birth, but what's the point? Unless abortions are categorically illegal or you're allowed to club babies on the way out you'll need to draw a firm line somewhere, and, no matter how scientific the basis, it'll be arbitrary.

    24. Re:So... when? by Sebilrazen · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Is your signature true?

      If so, honestly, I think you're the first Dittohead that I've read about that can come to a logical conclusion. You're so rare you're like the white buffalo.

      --
      "There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
    25. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, and the chosen term by rapists is "practitioners of surprise sex".

      The groups are pro-abortion and anti-abortion. Saying anything else confuses the issue.

    26. Re:So... when? by Sebilrazen · · Score: 1

      Unless you're talking a yearling buck or veal. It doesn't do any good to point out hypocrisy, it's better to just accept it, everyone is a hypocrite.

      --
      "There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
    27. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The mother chose to become pregnant, assuming there was no rape. I can't invite you in my house then shoot you for trespassing.

      (And yes, I consider having sex consenting to become pregnant. You know damn well it can happen, if it would be a problem, keep your damn legs shut. And if you're male, and don't want to consent to becoming a father, then keep your damn pants zipped. This is a 100% effective method of birth control. [There are second-hand reports of it failing once about 2010 years ago, but I don't buy it...])

    28. Re:So... when? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      But this delineation is entirely arbitrary, based on "what would make a significant number of people uncomfortable" rather than on science. Are they human beings at 25 weeks? Not human beings at 23?

      Most morality law is entirely arbitrary, based on what would make a significant number of people uncomfortable. Is there any reason we can't kill them after they are born? Many societies have been ok with that, though ours hasn't. Is there any reason we can't kill our neighbor if he becomes sufficiently annoying? Once again, other societies have been ok with that, but it makes us uncomfortable.

      There is no scientific basis for right and wrong. In essence science is merely an observation, an explanation of the natural world around us. It can tell us what the results of our actions may be, but it cannot tell us what is right or wrong. Right and wrong are entirely based on opinion.

      --
      Qxe4
    29. Re:So... when? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 0, Troll

      "The chosen terminology by each group is pro-life and pro-choice. Respect it."

      The proper terms are pro-life, and baby-killers. You respect it.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    30. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we accept that most pro-life people are also pro-execution/hunters (ignoring the obvious differences there), how does that prove any point? There are plenty of doctors who tell patients to improve their diet, then go have McDonalds for lunch. Does that invalidate their claims that a better diet is healthy?

    31. Re:So... when? by Chibi+Merrow · · Score: 1

      When is the "death penalty" OK?

      Well, in the US, the constitution explicitly spells out how capital crimes are to be handled...

      --
      Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
      Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
    32. Re:So... when? by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's a difference between being pro-abortion rights and being pro-abortion. I support the right of assholes to have freedom of speech, even if it is hate speech against blacks, jews, or gays. That doesn't make me a KKK Nazi Republican.

      This country is founded on the fundamental premise that we have freedom of religion, speech, etc., up to the point at which it directly harms others. The abortion debate is about the very complicated question of whether it harms another person or not. That's not an easy philosophical question to answer, and before anyone is qualified to answer that question, he or she must free himself or herself from the tendency to reply, "That's easy, my parents said..." or "That's easy, my preacher said..." or any other answer that comes easily. Such easy answers are almost always the wrong ones, as they are generally the end of thought on the subject rather than the beginning.

      For example, the easy (but wrong) answers for how to fight abortion are: 1. sue to make it illegal, and 2. try to convince people not to have them. Suing, however, is unlikely to make any real progress. Convincing people not to have abortions is slightly better; it may save a few individual children while you are actively doing this work, but it is an extremely inefficient way to improve things because it requires eternal vigilance by a fairly large number of people to be effective to any significant degree.

      By contrast, a much smarter answer is to contribute money to medical research to make it possible to sustain a fetus at progressively younger ages, eventually resulting in abortion being unnecessary, and eliminating any possible justification for abortion in the minds of even the staunchest abortion rights advocates. By answering in this way, your actions are the start of further thought and discussion instead of being dogmatic roadblocks to further thought. Further, instead of just reducing abortions, you're also doing something that helps humanity outside the context of abortion. Women who can't have kids could have kids, fetuses whose mothers die would not necessarily die, mothers who are diagnosed with cancer would no longer have to choose between chemotherapy and the lives of their children, women who are victims of rape or incest could give up their children for adoption and never have to endure childbirth for a child that was forced upon them, women who get pregnant when they are too young to safely bear a child would no longer be at serious risk, etc.

      Think bigger. Don't think of abortion as a problem to be solved. Think of it as a bad solution to a wide range of problems that could be solved in other ways, then try to find other ways.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    33. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're comment is everything that's wrong in politics right now: all sound and fury, loaded with emotional arguments and no substance.

      After the simply stunning display of well reasoned logic you displayed in the first part of your post, I am inclined to agree.

    34. Re:So... when? by Chibi+Merrow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      and on the other side you have pro-life people who are against even the day after pill because a conception may have occurred.

      Even as someone who's against abortion, I can't understand that opinion. The pill prevents implantation. A fertilized egg not properly implanting and therefore not becoming a viable embryo is, based on my understanding, a rather common occurrence in a woman's life. Hell, it seems nowadays we're damn lucky to even get successful pregnancies.

      Define a time in a pregnancy when the fetus starts to develop a brain and possible self-awareness and just cut the line there.

      I'm not sure that's something that can be scientifically determined... Psychologists and Cognitive Scientists have been studying what makes something sentient for longer than you or I have been around, and they don't seem to be any closer to having figured that out than when they started.

      Though it would be significantly more ideal than the current determining factor: viability. 'Viability' changes as medical technology improves, with the date for a child surviving a pre-term birth slowly marching downwards. 24 weeks (6 months) is accepted as survivable, albeit with significant risk, with reports claiming successful deliveries at 21 weeks. We're on the threshold of second trimester deliveries being regularly survivable, and yet second trimester abortions are accepted as the baby is "not viable." I have no doubt that with the way medical technology is going, we'll eventually have the ability to produce entire artificial wombs for the gestation of children, where the mother does not even have to play a part other than the donation of an egg... What then? Does that modify our definition of viability? (Never mind the huge ethical can of worms opened by having artificial baby factories...)

      I don't buy that a week or two old fetus is a "person" any more than a brain dead accident victim is, to whom it's legal to remove life support from and let die.

      A friend of mine was a columnist in my Uni's newspaper and he actually used a similar example... "Should a family who's loved one is currently on life support and in a coma, upon being told by the attending physician that they expect the patient to be able to come off of life support and regain consciousness in three months, and then eventually go on to lead a normal fully functional life afterward, be allowed to have the patient removed from life support simply due to not wanting the financial burden? No? Then why is abortion legal?"

      --
      Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
      Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
    35. Re:So... when? by bennomatic · · Score: 0, Redundant

      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning. Or maybe he took care of it with his famous razor.

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    36. Re:So... when? by bennomatic · · Score: 1

      Yes, and it's clearly just because the penalty is meted out even-handedly and fairly across all ethnic and socio-economic groups.

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    37. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, abortion is the irresponsible solution that irresponsible people advocate so that they can be irresponsible without having to worry about the result of their irresponsibility. Also, these people are total hypocrites because they think that mothers that kill their babies are monsters, but killing them a few months earlier is perfectly okay. "Pro-choice" is also a misnomer, because they don't want to give the father any choice in this matter.

      They are incoherent, they are irresponsible, they are hypocrites, they are sexists, AND they are selfish, thus they don't deserve ANY respect.

    38. Re:So... when? by weave · · Score: 1

      A friend of mine was a columnist in my Uni's newspaper and he actually used a similar example... "Should a family who's loved one is currently on life support and in a coma, upon being told by the attending physician that they expect the patient to be able to come off of life support and regain consciousness in three months, and then eventually go on to lead a normal fully functional life afterward, be allowed to have the patient removed from life support simply due to not wanting the financial burden? No? Then why is abortion legal?"

      Ah, but that person in a coma still has enough brain activity to keep the thing refreshed. A comatose person may even be self-aware. But a one month old fetus certainly doesn't have a brain to even function yet. I could buy that logic at 4-6 months in though.

    39. Re:So... when? by MinistryOfTruthiness · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't understand the line-drawing. There is no line. Stop with the line drawing. You don't use magic numbers in your code, and you surely should use them to determine matters of life and death. If it came from humans and develops into a human, it's a human. Pigs don't develop into humans, nor do dogs, sheep, or monkeys. A human is a human at every stage of its development. No line.

      The honest question each society must answer is: At what point in a human's life is it okay to murder them for your convenience?

      --
      "I know that every word that man just said is true, because it's EXACTLY what I wanted to hear." -- Space Ghost
    40. Re:So... when? by MinistryOfTruthiness · · Score: 1

      bleh. Missed a word. "...surely should *NOT* use them to determine...".

      --
      "I know that every word that man just said is true, because it's EXACTLY what I wanted to hear." -- Space Ghost
    41. Re:So... when? by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      Actually even if they are not allowed to have him removed from life support I can't expect the family to be forced to pay for it. Then it's up to the state to decide for how long it is going to support these kinds of patients. After that person is revived he can sue his family to get his stuff back, not unlike when a missing person comes out to be alive after several years . The state then can sue him to pay for his medical debts. Or he can choose not pay for the bills and go to prison or commit suicide or both.

      It sounds crazy and heartless but it is the way I'd hope the government managed these cases.

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    42. Re:So... when? by shilly · · Score: 1

      You honestly believe that the minute the spunk hits the egg, it's a murder, do you? I hope you don't believe in God, then, cos you're going to have to think he's quite the callous cunt given how many early miscarriages happen (oh, sorry, murders of defenceless little baby humans by a God with the power and intelligence to know better). And then you're going to be terrified he's going to send you to hell for thinking he's a callous cunt (even if he is, I guess)

    43. Re:So... when? by tinkerton · · Score: 1

      That's what the world has come to in these PC times. Attempting to insult people by calling them a cigarette.

    44. Re:So... when? by MinistryOfTruthiness · · Score: 1

      Give me a break with the righteous indignation. You don't understand the difference between willfully murdering someone and their simply dying of natural causes? Or are you just willfully stupid and sociopathic?

      --
      "I know that every word that man just said is true, because it's EXACTLY what I wanted to hear." -- Space Ghost
    45. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Consequence free sex is more important than allowing a zygote to become a baby. I'm sure it makes you furious, but that's how I feel.

      captcha: violator

    46. Re:So... when? by MinistryOfTruthiness · · Score: 2, Insightful

      At least you're honest, and that was my point. We need to stop with the intellectual dishonesty of "it's not human until X weeks." It is human, it came from human, will be human, it doesn't magically become something else in between. If your priorities are consequence-free sex over someone else's life, that's your choice, and, while I personally think you should be psychologically evaluated for prioritizing your recreation over someone else's life, I can at least respect that you understand and accept the decision you're making.

      --
      "I know that every word that man just said is true, because it's EXACTLY what I wanted to hear." -- Space Ghost
    47. Re:So... when? by the_one(2) · · Score: 1

      Yes, the constitution is the epitome of wisdom. To bad such great minds will never be seen again!~

    48. Re:So... when? by arminw · · Score: 1

      ....The abortion debate is about the very complicated question of whether it harms another person or not....

      Obviously, an abortion harms a person, the developing baby. When a baby is conceived, it is a person. The development of such a person is continuous into adulthood in the course of time. Birth is just the time in such a continuous development which marks the point where such a person can exist outside of the womb. The question of abortion is one of rights between a person, the mother and another person, the baby. Whether the baby is in the womb or outside has no bearing on personhood.

      In order for the Nazis to justify killing Jews and others, they first declared them as nonpersons, (Untermenschen) literally under human. Abortionists do the same thing by declaring that the developing baby is only a bunch of developing cells, but not a person with rights of personhood. Justifying abortion on that basis is pure evil.

      One of the reasons for existence of government, if not the major reason, is to protect one person from another. In the case of abortion, the rights of the person of the mother must be weighed against the rights of the person of the child. Most if not all governments have laws against killing another human being. Therefore it is curious to me and doesn't make sense at all, that abortionists would approve killing before the purely artificial point of birth and not afterwards. The birth of a human being does not interrupt in any way shape or form, the process of continuous development into adulthood.

      --
      All theory is gray
    49. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would I care what a pro-life site says that A) perpetuates the good old "Hitler loved abortions" lie and B) has a broken search engine - which drops me to a "not found" page telling me to use their search engine.

    50. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see things in black and white the way you seem to. Yes, it would become a human, but it's not yet. Stopping its development before it has a chance to become a full, talking, walking human being is not as bad as killing a new born baby. I believe you CAN rank thinks on a continuum and at some point on that continuum it becomes an acceptable behavior. I'd certainly say it's not OK to have a late term abortion, and it's not OK to kill a baby that's been born. Killing an 8 year old child is worse, and you can't find a sane person who would support that. Then as you get older it starts to go back down. Killing a new born baby is not the same as killing a 90 year old person, by his request, who is dying of some incurable, terminal, disease. It's all shades of gray and the edges get muddled.

      My girlfriend uses the birth control pill, but if she got pregnant she would get an abortion, we've discussed this. Being intimate with each other is worth taking that risk. We both believe that reproductive rights (which includes the right to have sex WITHOUT reproducing) trumps the rights of a fetus.

      Make whatever moral judgment you want about me. I am not evil, I am not insane, I am not a murderer.

    51. Re:So... when? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      And that's exactly the problem with the pro-life crowd that wants to turn a fertilized egg into a person. It necessarily reduces the ability of the mother to make decisions regarding her own life. However, the same approach doesn't change the ability of the father to make decisions regarding his own life.

      That's the fundamental problem right there. Personhood for a fertilized egg necessarily equates to women having less rights than men, and them becoming far more vulnerable to manipulation by men via rape.

      Just because of that, I agree that abortion is left to the group of people that you mention.

      On a side note: I love how the current conservative wing of the republicans decry government intervention into business, but are perfectly fine with government intervention into the personal lives of subjects... I mean, citizens.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    52. Re:So... when? by repapetilto · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Use of those terms also confuse the issue... it sounds as if some people are going around advocating forced abortions or something.. The truly correct terminology would be Pro-law-against abortion and Anti-Law-against abortion. If someone could figure out a way to make that more catchy noone would have an excuse for using the terms derived from political spin.

    53. Re:So... when? by sa1lnr · · Score: 1

      I've always thought the term "infant" meant that they had already been born?

    54. Re:So... when? by Hucko · · Score: 1

      I'm anti abortionist, yet even I know that abortionists actually reason that it is before the brain develops that should be allowed. If you want to be treated fairly, treat people fairly. Most people would recognise that without a brain the fetus is not viable. The point is still somewhat artificial, but to build a straw man of the time of birth is not fair.

      I'm sure you'll recognise the ancestry of the fair rule.

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    55. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When is the "death penalty" OK?

      Well, in the US, the constitution explicitly spells out how capital crimes are to be handled...

      So what exactly does the US constitution say about when the "death penalty" is OK?

    56. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The chosen terminology by each group is pro-life and pro-choice. Respect it.

      Uh, no. As far as I'm concerned, entities do not have the right to choose the name which will be used to refer to them. If you feel otherwise, then please start referring to me as "my lord and master, Anonymous Coward".

      (This problem crops up occasionally when a company renames itself to escape bad publicity. We shouldn't allow this to happen, either.)

    57. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I consider writing that abhorrent post as consent to paying me $10,000.00
      If you have a problem, keep your damn mouth shut.

      What now?

    58. Re:So... when? by fbjon · · Score: 1

      That's a good position, but in reality keeping your legs shut can prove difficult. Abortion is a real problem, not just an ideological discussion. Illegal and unregulated underground clinics, abortion tourism, etc. are also real problems that may increase with restrictions.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    59. Re:So... when? by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Obviously, an abortion harms a person, the developing baby. When a baby is conceived, it is a person.

      FAIL.

    60. Re:So... when? by amilo100 · · Score: 1

      I'm anti abortionist, yet even I know that abortionists actually reason that it is before the brain develops that should be allowed. If you want to be treated fairly, treat people fairly. Most people would recognise that without a brain the fetus is not viable.

      Viability is actually defined as the capability of a baby to live outside its mother. It has nothing to do with brain development. Abortion is usually legal until 22-26 weeks (there have been premies born before 22 weeks who survived, but the survival rate is low).

      The biggest killer of babies born prematurely (and the reason they struggle to survive at 20 weeks) is the development of their lungs (they thus have severe difficulty to breathe).

    61. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting to note, USA, Sweden, and North Korea have something in common. I've leave the exercise for the viewer to figure out what that is.

      The USA, like most other modern civilized countries (Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Greece, the Netherlands, etc, etc) permits any woman the option of having an abortion, according to that list.

      I'm a bit surprised to see North Korea listed there at all - how exactly do you find out the abortion laws of a country that's that difficult to get into in the first place.

    62. Re:So... when? by bennomatic · · Score: 1

      MMmm..... Yearrrrling buuuuuuuck.

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    63. Re:So... when? by MinistryOfTruthiness · · Score: 1

      Why do you think I see things in black and white? I simply refuse to delude myself by thinking that something which very clearly is human, albeit a young one, is anything but human. That's what I'm saying, and there's no logical reason I've ever heard to compromise on that.

      What you're talking about is the value placed on that human life at various stages and under different circumstances. Once we've all agreed that we are, indeed, talking about taking a human life, I think we can begin to have a reasoned discussion on the value to place on it. If everyone is running around saying "it's not human," "it's a tumor," "it's a parasite," or any other number of phrases meant to avoid the guilt associated with believing what they do, then they are intellectually unfit for the conversation.

      What you're saying is that, on the value continuum as applied to unborn humans of a certain age, you place a very low value on that life, or at least value it less than you value your convenience.

      I'm saying I place a much higher value on that life, which is, yes, inconvenient, but I personally couldn't live with myself otherwise.

      When it comes to matters of law, our society must determine where it fits between you and me. I would say that the die is already cast, but I'm not comfortable with it because it's been cast under false pretenses, which is the entire point I'm trying to make. If our society says, very clearly, "We consider human life during the first trimester to be of little to no value, and terminating it for any or no purpose is therefore sanctioned by law," then I'd at least respect the process a bit more, even though I'd still hate it. Hell, if so many people agree with you, then make it an amendment. But word it that way. Honestly, directly, truthfully.

      However, that's not what's happened. What's happened is that people have been lied to, and, having turned off their bullshit detectors for the sake of their convenience, they have believed the lies and essentially decided the above while justifying it with what they know to be bullshit.

      If everyone having an abortion of convenience would have to repeat, out loud, "I acknowledge that I am willfully terminating a human life for no other reason but my own convenience" before having the procedure done, I think a lot fewer people would do it. Most people instinctively know that there's a hell of a lot morally wrong with making that statement, and even more wrong with following through with it. No one likes to be laid bare that way, but if they're going to kill someone, they could at least have the guts and common decency to own up to the reality of what they're doing.

      Once we've established that it is a continuum, and that various cultures may place differing values on human life at various stages and under different circumstances, I submit that we simply make this a state matter. Let conservative states outlaw it, and let liberal states have their murder. There's no point in fighting this at the federal level to force a one-size-fits-all solution on everyone, and it's only going to continue on in acrimonious, hot-headed debate from here til forever otherwise.

      --
      "I know that every word that man just said is true, because it's EXACTLY what I wanted to hear." -- Space Ghost
    64. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The chart misrepresents the situation in the Netherlands with a row of Ys. Abortion is only sort of permitted, with some restrictions, as long as the unborn child cannot survive outside the womb. This is generally taken as 24 weeks (a 2), or in case of significant defects (a Y). Since there is also a legal escape hatch for the doctor in medical emergencies, a Y is arguable for the life and health columns. Mental, rape, and social should definitely be 2.

      Moreover abortion on demand is not permitted at all, so an N in that column. The mother must give a reason, which must be accepted as valid by the doctor after a 5 day waiting period. The law doesn't spell out what those reasons should be, but they should generally fall in the categories given in the chart. This obviously isn't very much of a constraint in reality if you are willing to shop around and/or lie, but it is there.

      Many hospitals (at least the ones in which my children were born) actually only wish to perform abortions up to 13 weeks, which is the safest ground medically and legally. There is still a criminal code clause prohibiting abortion (up to 4 1/2 yrs in prison) that applies if doctors fail to follow the proper procedures for deciding to perform an abortion.

    65. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're also racists. Blacks and other minorities have abortions in disproportionately high numbers compared to whites. Why do pro-abortionists hate brown people?

    66. Re:So... when? by repapetilto · · Score: 1

      You could look at animals as sort of "less-evolved" humans, in that humans are the only conscious beings we really know of for sure. I mean go far back enough and youd find an ancestor who was no more conscious than that cow you ate part of for lunch. How "conscious" are fetuses or even newborns? Relative to a cow or chicken or really insert any living thing you wouldnt make a fuss about killing if it was inconveniencing you to not kill it. I'm not a vegetarian, mostly because I dont think one person would make a difference in something that big at this point in Human culture at least, but if you're someone really really cares about that 12 week old fetus... Id think it would be consistent to also be strongly against unnecessary killing of other animals (the more like humans the animal is the moreso you should feel that way).

    67. Re:So... when? by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      You honestly believe that the minute the spunk hits the egg, it's a murder, do you? I hope you don't believe in God, then, cos you're going to have to think he's quite the callous cunt given how many early miscarriages happen (oh, sorry, murders of defenceless little baby humans by a God with the power and intelligence to know better).

      What's the difference between a miscarriage and any of the other bazillion ways a person can naturally die? If you blame God for miscarriages, presumably you also blame God when people die of cancer, or get hit by a bus, or whatever. Human life is lost.

      And then you're going to be terrified he's going to send you to hell for thinking he's a callous cunt (even if he is, I guess)

      This attitude stems from the false belief that people are generally good, and that we all naturally deserve to go to Heaven. We're not, and we don't. Only perfect people are worthy of entering God's kingdom, and none of us is perfect, so none of us deserve to go to heaven. God does not arbitrarily choose to send certain people to Hell because they're worse than the rest of us. We're just as bad - and God loves us anyway.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    68. Re:So... when? by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      Stopping its development before it has a chance to become a full, talking, walking human being is not as bad as killing a new born baby.

      Just thought I should point out, a new born baby also hasn't had a chance to become a full, talking, walking human being yet.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    69. Re:So... when? by arminw · · Score: 1

      .... no matter how scientific the basis, it'll be arbitrary....

      Drawing the line at conception is both scientific and non-arbitrary. After conception, at which time human development has begun, it continues into adulthood. Birth does not interrupt this continuous development, but merely means that the person is now not dependent on the mother in the same way as when that person was still in the womb. The scientific fact of the matter is that after conception there is a real developing person in existence. Destroying such a person any time after conception is homicide. The research article is another piece of evidence that this is true.

      --
      All theory is gray
    70. Re:So... when? by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      Very well said.

      I support abortion in certain circumstances. For example, fairly unusual cases when the mother's health is jeopardized by the pregnancy. I recognize that the life of one human being is being terminated, but since I don't value that life above the life of the mother (and there's a good chance that if the mother dies or becomes severely ill, the baby will die anyway), I believe this to be a reasonable position.

      There are a few who would oppose abortion even in these cases; there are many who support abortion in many more circumstances. We should be able to have this discussion, but it's being drowned out by all the lies, deception and namecalling.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    71. Re:So... when? by arminw · · Score: 1

      ....Right and wrong are entirely based on opinion....

      Unless you're talking about God's opinion, which in the end is the only opinion that counts. You may not want to believe that you will answer to God's judgment one day, but nevertheless you will.

      Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,

      You know you can't argue with the first part of this sentence, but apparently you and many others dispute the second part.

      --
      All theory is gray
    72. Re:So... when? by arminw · · Score: 1

      ...the penalty is meted out...

      To unborn innocent children? Some of the same people who are willing to murder innocent unborn, will protest the execution of serial killers.

      --
      All theory is gray
    73. Re:So... when? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Choosing which God to believe in is a matter of opinion.

      --
      Qxe4
    74. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An even better answer is to develop a form of contraception which is inexpensive, permanent, free of side effects, and easily reversible - an "on/off" switch for fertility. For both men and women. Implant everyone with it at birth, and when they are old enough and want children they can turn fertility on, until they've had enough. Then nobody ever has deal with unwanted pregnancy, and surgery to remove the unwanted fetus so it can be raised in an artificial womb is not needed. Though artificial wombs would be a good thing too, to make having children less inconvenient and painful. Technology makes everything better.

    75. Re:So... when? by Hucko · · Score: 1

      Okay, I'll track that down. I was to understand the problem wasn't lack of particular organs (brain obviously exempt), but the lack of ability to think. This always brought the problems of at what stage of thinking is considered to be 'human'. I'm starting to get myself tangled and confused again so I'm opting out due to ignorance and wanting to learn more.

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    76. Re:So... when? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      That won't work for many reasons:

      1. There are those who are opposed philosophically to contraception who won't use them or let their kids use them.
      2. Rapists and child molesters aren't likely to use protection just to save their victims from harm, because if they cared about their victims, they wouldn't do those things in the first place.
      3. It is unlikely that any long-term contraceptive could be given to anyone until well after puberty, as it is very unlikely that it is even possible to create such a contraceptive that wouldn't screw up reproductive development. Unless, of course, your goal is to sterilize the population, in which case you should just come right out and say it instead of hiding behind a harebrained scheme.
      4. There's a huge shortage of children compared with the number of parents who want to adopt. Better contraception will make that problem worse.
      5. We already have contraception that is safe, yet people don't bother to use that. If people can't be bothered to put on a condom, put in a diaphragm, take birth control pills, or have an IUD installed, they're not going to bother with the next scheme you come up with, either.
      6. The lack of fear of pregnancy would lead to a significant increase in teenage sex, which would almost inevitably result in an increase in sexually transmitted disease among the population, which brings with it a whole host of serious health problems.

      And in spite of its almost guaranteed failure to solve the problems that abortion attempts to solve, that solution also doesn't solve any of the other problems that an artificial womb could solve, all while blowing huge amounts of money on a project that is doomed to fail right from the start. Yeah, that's a better idea....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    77. Re:So... when? by arminw · · Score: 1

      ....trumps the rights of a fetus...

      You think that you can give a description such as that to a human and then it becomes no longer human? That is what the Nazis did. They labeled Jews as subhuman and then they could justify it to themselves to murder them. You are labeling a human baby a fetus and then you justify murdering a human unborn baby.

      --
      All theory is gray
    78. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even as someone who's against abortion, I can't understand that opinion. The pill prevents implantation. A fertilized egg not properly implanting and therefore not becoming a viable embryo is, based on my understanding, a rather common occurrence in a woman's life. Hell, it seems nowadays we're damn lucky to even get successful pregnancies.

      So why are you against induced miscarriage, which is also a common occurence? Your views seem inconsistent.

    79. Re:So... when? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Which is which? Generally the people against abortion are anti-life and pro-baby-killing. They just like to do it after birth, preferably to people of other nationalities or different economic status.
      The people who believe in freedom are usually against killing babies and killing in general.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    80. Re:So... when? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Actually convincing people to not get pregnant is probably the most successful course right now.
      The trick is to educate them early and make contraceptives available. This also solves the problems of unwanted children, teen pregnancy and the glut of children out there who can't get adopted.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    81. Re:So... when? by arminw · · Score: 1

      ...when a life becomes sentient/aware...

      The issue is when do HUMAN rights begin. When a baby is conceived, it is a person. The development of such a person is continuous into adulthood in the course of time. Birth is just the time in such a continuous development which marks the point where such a person can exist outside of the womb.

      The question of abortion is one of rights between a person, the mother and another person, the baby. Whether the baby is in the womb or outside has no bearing on personhood. It is unscientific and totally nonsensical, to use time as the deciding factor, whether or not that which was conceived is human being with all rights that we normally accord to such.

      Whether or not to allow conception to happen is a religious and personal issue and should be kept as such.

      If it comes down to a question of the life of the mother versus the life of the unborn child, I would let the mother, if she is able to, make that decision together with her doctor.

      --
      All theory is gray
    82. Re:So... when? by arminw · · Score: 1

      ....It necessarily reduces the ability of the mother to make decisions regarding her own life. ....

      The mother can make decisions regarding her own life, but she has no right to make decisions for somebody else including her unborn baby, who is another human being with rights just like you and I.

      Governments exist primarily to protect one person from another. Unborn children are persons under continuous development into adulthood. The development starts at conception. It is the right and duty of government to make sure that one person does not infringe upon the rights of another person.

      There should be no arbitrary right for anyone to decide whether someone innocent should be terminated. The life of the mother weighed against the life of the unborn child should allow the mother to decide, together with her doctor what to do in such a case as well as rape and incest.

      --
      All theory is gray
    83. Re:So... when? by arminw · · Score: 1

      ....Or he can choose not pay for the bills and go to prison.....

      So you are proposing that we return to the ancient practice of sending debtors to prison? How about selling them as slaves to work off the debt?

      --
      All theory is gray
    84. Re:So... when? by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      An even better answer is to develop a form of contraception which is inexpensive, permanent, free of side effects, and easily reversible

      It's kind of like engineering! "Pick any one."

    85. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should a family who's loved one...

      The better analogy would be a 15 year old girl being forced by the government to drop out of high school to care for a relative she'd never even met and who didn't care at all whether he lived or died (and didn't even know what living and dying meant, for that matter) and who had never formed any relationships with anyone or even met anyone at all (or even known that anyone even existed) - all because some religious nutjobs wanted to "punish" the girl for having sex without being married.

    86. Re:So... when? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      That's one rather warped view of America's politics.

      Let me try to clear up your confusion. Pro-life means exactly that - life is sacred, and you shouldn't be killing ANYONE. Pro LIFE. See?

      On the other side of the aisle, we have the baby killers who see nothing wrong with late term on-demand abortion. Some of the MOST EXTREME come to the defense of post-partem-baby killers, with defenses like post-partem stress.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    87. Re:So... when? by Zerth · · Score: 1

      so abortion is pretty much impossible after the third trimester.

      But so many people support abortion after the 57th trimester...

    88. Re:So... when? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Well the constitution can be updated to bring it into line with current views on being civilized.
      Remember when it was written lots of things were considered fine that are no longer tolerated with slavery being the big one.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    89. Re:So... when? by Zerth · · Score: 1

      One could, I suppose, construct a sort of Schrodinger's baby scenario to determine percent humanity based on probability of successful birth, but what's the point?

      Easy enough test. Induce labor, stick the results in an incubator. If it lives, it's human. Otherwise, it counts as a miscarriage.

      Some cultures with high child mortality extended this idea over all births, and until the child could speak.

    90. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And why does your particular god get to be the one who makes the rules? The FSM is the only real god, and if you don't believe in him you'll face his judgment when you die, boiling for eternity in marinara.

      Your statement is just as ridiculous.

    91. Re:So... when? by snowgirl · · Score: 2, Informative

      Uh...... hate to break it to you, but that chart is wrong. In at least the US, on-Demand abortions come with severe restrictions. Notably, they don't happen after the third-trimester.

      Ok, as a girl, reading this the glaring point that needs to be made is... ALL abortions are illegal after the third trimester... because that means that the baby has been born.

      You mean that on-demand abortions aren't allowed DURING the third trimester.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    92. Re:So... when? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      But there's not a glut of children who can't get adopted. There are many more people who want to adopt than there are children, and at least in the U.S., the rules on who can adopt keep getting tighter. There's a bureaucratic wall preventing adoptions from happening, not a lack of people willing to adopt. In fact, I've been told that a significant percentage of foster parents do so because it helps work around that bureaucracy.

      Also, there's a substantial racial divide in adoption, with most people preferring to adopt someone of the same race and a significantly larger number of caucasian adoptive parents and a significantly larger number of non-caucasian (particularly Asian, IIRC) children waiting for adoption. Thus, reducing the number of kids doesn't really solve the problem. The places where people would be likely to take steps to have fewer kids are actually the places from which we need *more* kids to be put up for adoption (because they're already making extensive use of contraception), and the places where people are unlikely to take those steps are the places from which we need fewer kids put up for adoption.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    93. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By contrast, a much smarter answer is to contribute money to medical research to make it possible to sustain a fetus at progressively younger ages, eventually resulting in abortion being unnecessary, and eliminating any possible justification for abortion in the minds of even the staunchest abortion rights advocates.

      Well, eventually the technology will exist for someone to grow up a clone of you just from the cells you shed as you wander about in public. Will that be legal? Can I clone myself up a couple copies of Carrie Fisher ("Hellooo, Princess Leia!") from a few of the cells she sheds when she's out in public? So, even if it's technologically possible suck out the fertilized egg cell two seconds after implantation and raise it in an artificial womb, there are still going to be ethical issues.

      The interesting thing in my mind, though, is how the anti-abortion crowd is going to feel about that. Suppose some sorority girl wanders into the clinic after a long night of drunk frat boy love and asks the clinic to suck out any fertilized egg cells (and raise them up artificially, or whatever - she just doesn't care). Is the anti-abortion crowd going to be OK with that? Despite protestations to the contrary, I get the impression that a big motivation for the anti-abortion crowd is trying to discourage unmarried people from having sex.

    94. Re:So... when? by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      By contrast, a much smarter answer is to contribute money to medical research to make it possible to sustain a fetus at progressively younger ages, eventually resulting in abortion being unnecessary, and eliminating any possible justification for abortion in the minds of even the staunchest abortion rights advocates.

      Justification? So you think that abortions for convenience won't continue if all pregnancies are viable? The justification for such abortions is the same justification for newborn babies found in dumpsters.

    95. Re:So... when? by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      With those artificial wombs you'll have to keep this article in mind so you don't deprive those children of their early language development.

    96. Re:So... when? by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      Actually I don't know what the government does to you if you refuse to pay your debts when you could afford to pay them if you sued your family, isn't it like tax evasion? Can the government sue your family in name for your old possessions? Ideally you could simply declare yourself bankrupt I guess.

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    97. Re:So... when? by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Obviously, an abortion harms a person, the developing baby. When a baby is conceived, it is a person.

      FAIL.

      Only failure in terms of legal definition. I assume you also contend that before the Emancipation Proclamation, in the U.S.A. a black slave wasn't a person but a free black man was person just because that was the legal definition. Lawyers play silly word games with reality all the time to get the results they want, but they have to rely on the definitions that others laid before them. Thus the current (and prior) dissonance between common and legal usages of "person".

    98. Re:So... when? by mooingyak · · Score: 1

      That would be explaining the joke.

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    99. Re:So... when? by TBoon · · Score: 1

      Without even looking at the rest of the site, the color scheme tells me that this list is compiled by nut jobs.

      So, simply disagreeing with you about abortion automatically makes people a nut job? Would it be less of a nut-job by switching the green and red color-scheme to match your preferance? The site isn't exactly hiding its allignment.

      How would you prefer to color-code that chart? Apart from avoiding color altogether, there aren't that many other primary/secondary colors to choose from that makes a chart readable when you remove green, yellow, orange and red. Black and white can hold bias. And purple/magenta is a bit too close to red... That pretty much leaves blue, and using only shades of blue brings us back to the issues with black and white...

    100. Re:So... when? by ericbg05 · · Score: 1

      A friend of mine was a columnist in my Uni's newspaper and he actually used a similar example... "Should a family who's loved one is currently on life support and in a coma, upon being told by the attending physician that they expect the patient to be able to come off of life support and regain consciousness in three months, and then eventually go on to lead a normal fully functional life afterward, be allowed to have the patient removed from life support simply due to not wanting the financial burden? No? Then why is abortion legal?"

      Your friend makes a crappy analogy.

      I can't legally pay you to have sex with me. But, I can legally pay you to have sex with my friend, film that sex act, burn it to a DVD, make 1 million copies of that DVD and sell those copies to strangers.

      So why is making pornography legal? Or why is prostitution illegal?

      Because, while they share traits, they are different in ways that we have decided are important. We decided early on in the USA to be damn careful about limiting freedom of expression. It's hard to say how a law against prostitution treads on one's freedom of expression, but it's easy to argue that a law against pornography does so.

      We haven't decided yet when a fetus becomes a person. This is a hot topic, and it stays hot because there is no objective way to say that a bag of cells is a person. Conception, heartbeat, brain function, viability, birth: these are all just arbitrary choices we make because we think that they somehow indicate that the bag of cells has become a person.

      Until we do decide, the rights of the person carrying the fetus will outweigh those of the fetus itself. It's really the only sensible way to proceed.

      OTOH, we all agree that a person in a coma is still a person. Just because we may want to protect hir rights, and give less protection to something we don't agree is a person, does not mean our thinking is flawed.

      In fact, it kinda means our thinking is consistent.

      Your friend would be better off arguing that the boundary between being a person and not being a person is arbitrary, that there is no magical moment when a fetus becomes a person. But we all agree that after the fetus has been born, it is certainly a person. So since we know that the fetus at some point becomes a person, but we don't know exactly when, we should pick the earliest time at which it is reasonable to suspect that the fetus is a person. And that time is conception [insert reasoning here]. So, since a conceived fetus is a person, we can't kill it because we have a law against killing persons.

      The latter argument, while still deeply flawed, is less transparently so. :)

    101. Re:So... when? by ericbg05 · · Score: 1

      I've always thought the term "infant" meant that they had already been born?

      Infant comes from a Latin word meaning "speechless". So I guess anything that can't speak (a young baby, an unborn baby, a wet piece of string, a sloth, a carp, an orangutan, a breakfast cereal, a fruit bat) is an infant. :)

    102. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude... what? Are you seriously trying to say that I should be a vegetarian because I value human life? Really?

      Why do people always come up with these insane, convoluted, psychobabble, non-sensical arguments to "prove" some sort of inconsistency? Are you really unable to understand why I'd value a human life at any stage over a cow at any stage? Are you even convinced by your own argument, or are you just throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks? Can you read aloud what you wrote while maintaining a straight face?

      Everything you just said has been a waste of time, network bandwidth, and disk space.

    103. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, why does everyone take leave of their senses when this topic comes up? There's obviously a world of difference between someone who's innocent and never had a chance at the world, and someone who has willfully and unjustifiably taken one or more human lives -- often in tortuous and extraordinarily cruel ways. A child has done nothing to forfeit their life, but a person on death row has made a conscious decision to forfeit theirs by murdering other human beings and showing themselves to be dangerous to society at large.

      Whether or not you agree with the death penalty is a different discussion, but saying that you can't see the difference between abortion and the death penalty just makes you disingenuous, a troll, or an idiot.

    104. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blacks and other minorities have abortions in disproportionately high numbers compared to whites.

      You make that sound like it's a bad thing.

    105. Re:So... when? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      After the child is 13.75 years old? I think you meant 75th trimester...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    106. Re:So... when? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      A child has done nothing to forfeit their life, but a person on death row has made a conscious decision to forfeit theirs by murdering other human beings and showing themselves to be dangerous to society at large.

      Hate to shatter your illusions about the awesomeness of the US legal system, but being on death row is only loosely correlated with guilt.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    107. Re:So... when? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      An entirely different situation. A slave is only not a person if you specifically define them as such. You can not qualitatively distinguish a slave and a free man by scientific means without knowing which is which (even medially - a house slave may be in a better state of health than a free field labourer). You can easily distinguish between a human and a collection of cells with no developed brain stem.

      You are defining a single cell which has the potential to become a human child with (a lot of) outside assistance from the mother as a person. Why draw the line there, and not define every egg and every sperm as a person too? The difference in the amount of effort required to turn an egg or a sperm into a human and the amount of effort required to turn a zygote into a human is tiny. Why not regard every non-foetal undifferentiated stem cell as a person too? You can grow each of these into a clone with a certain amount of technical help.

      Most people regard thinking as the distinguishing feature of humans - it's even where the name that we gave our species, Homo Sapiens, comes from. Do you feel less kindred, then, with a dog that demonstrates some intelligence than with a bundle of cells with no brain but some human DNA?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    108. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...when a life becomes sentient/aware...

      In your case? Never.

    109. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your country is founded on one, and _only_ one thing.

      Freedom to not pay tax to the British.

      There is no other thing - none at all.

    110. Re:So... when? by Gerafix · · Score: 1
      The opinion of god is the only one that counts? Yes, that makes perfect sense, because everything god says is perfect, right?

      Numbers 15:35

      And the Lord said unto Moses, The man [who was found picking up sticks on the sabbath] shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones.

      1 Samuel 15:2-3

      Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

      So gods perfect opinion is killing people for picking up sticks and killing babies and pretty much anything that breathes is A-OK!

    111. Re:So... when? by aardwolf64 · · Score: 1

      There's a huge difference between a fertilized egg not implanting on its own and taking a pill to ensure that it doesn't implant.

      Toddlers are hit by buses every so often in this country without intent of the driver to kill them, but that doesn't make it right when a driver decides to intentionally hit one.

    112. Re:So... when? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      You're going to have to demonstrate that "to save the life of the mother" is equivalent to "i can't live with a child" in most states.

      Sorry, I should have been willing to type the extra words. The phrase that is most often used in the assorted laws is "to save the life or health of the mother".

      And there have been cases where the courts have ruled that the mental health of the mother qualifies.

      So, yes, "I can't live with a child" has worked as an excuse for an abortion in some places.

      Note that this is by no means universal, of course. Nor is it even common.

      What I was trying to point out was that "abortion during the third trimester is illegal" just isn't so in the USA.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    113. Re:So... when? by bennomatic · · Score: 1

      Oh, come on. Aren't we techies? We could do random colors each time. Or let the visitor decide.

      But yes, anyone who feels like abortions should not be legal even in the case of rape or danger to the woman's life is, in my book, a nut job. You don't have to agree; you can even think that I'm a nut job, but you'd be wrong.

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    114. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering the US courts, he might've meant it. And you ment 13.5 YO, unless you are assuming the kid is premature.

    115. Re:So... when? by repapetilto · · Score: 1

      I dunno, have you ever thought about why you value human life?

    116. Re:So... when? by arminw · · Score: 1

      ...So gods perfect opinion is killing people...

      So is a cancer surgeon's opinion in killing every last cancer cell?

      That's because you and I live in sin soaked world and have no idea what a perfect and holy God might be like. We are all, without exception infected with the cancer of sin.

      The wages of sin is death and because we have all sinned we all die. You can argue with that all you want, but you're going to die.

      However, God offers his grace to those who BELIEVE. It's not those who are smart like you, or smooth talkers, good-looking or beautiful, strong and muscular, tall or able to run fast, educated or unschooled, but simply to everyone who believes. Everybody can believe, so that leaves nobody out. Can you think of another criterion that God could have used OTHER than simply believing him?

      --
      All theory is gray
    117. Re:So... when? by Gastrobot · · Score: 1

      The chosen terminology by each group is pro-life and pro-choice. Respect it.

      The aborted don't get a choice. The term pro-choice therefore seems misleading. I would also note the lack of choice for a male who has no say in the life of his child but that one is less direct since he isn't physically involved at that point.

    118. Re:So... when? by Gerafix · · Score: 1

      Cancer treatment is crude so far with our current technology. Can you imagine how crude it was a thousand years ago? It was nowhere as close as effective as modern medicine. Don't get me wrong I am extremely saddened with our current level of medicinal ingenuity. Killing cancer by poisoning it slightly more than normal human cells is absolutely ludicrous in every aspect, but it's what we are able to accomplish in our current technological age. Sin is a poor excuse for the troubles that plague humanity in our current age. If people truly cared about each other, and truly cared about our own well being we would be able to overcome our genetic and environmental detrimental effects that cause cancer and much of Homo sapien suffering. This causes me a disturbing amount of sadness because if we only looked after one another instead of following old, superstitious beliefs we would be so far ahead in curing all our primitive diseases such as cancer or any communicable disease. Sorry for the run on sentences but I've had a bit to drink and I truly wish humanity would get over arbitrary differences and work together with at least the effectiveness of ants. Be honest, can you imagine if Homo sapien were as loyal and willing to work for the common good as ants? It brings tears to my eyes to think of the beauty humans could accomplish if we simply looked beyond skin colour, belief, sex, nation, or any other arbitrary distinction and truly helped every single human on the face of planet Earth. Perhaps one day we will accomplish such a thing, I am absolutely afraid that that in my life time no such revelation will come to pass. Will humanity be destined for arbitrary distinction? God forbid...

    119. Re:So... when? by arminw · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      ...Killing cancer by poisoning....
      I had in mind more than the removal of cancer by surgery and making sure every last cancer cell was gone. If the cancer has metastasized, surgery can no longer reach those cancer cells, but yet somehow, they must be killed. Sin is like a cancer in the human spirit and we are all without a single exception infected by it.

      (...Sin is a poor excuse for the troubles that plague humanity...)
      Unfortunately you are wrong. Sin is the cause of every trouble every person on this planet ever has had and will have, culminating in death. Contrary to the belief of many, death is not extinction of being, but merely a separation. The first separation occurs at physical death, where the spirit or soul is separated from the body. All humans are subject to this, including you and I. The second separation, what the Bible refers to as the second death, occurs when the spirit or soul or separated forever from God.

      Right now, good and evil exist side-by-side and will continue to do so until Judgment Day. After that, there will be a place where only evil exists and another place where there is only good. These places are commonly referred to as hell and heaven.

      (...If people truly cared about each other...)

      Yes of course that is true, but the sin of selfishness in every one of us prevents that. Jesus Christ alone is the cure for sin. Jesus said that a man must be born-again. Everyone who was only born once will die twice but he who is born twice, once in the body and once in spirit, will only die once. A true Christian, one who has been born again, is given the desire and the ability to not sin. That doesn't mean such a person achieve sinless perfection, but truly in their heart desires to please God by not sinning. You can read about what Jesus had to say on the subject in the third chapter of John.

      The key is to believe what God says and then out of that belief, like for example a mother Theresa, live a life of service for God and man.

      --
      All theory is gray
    120. Re:So... when? by abbyful · · Score: 1

      Did you really just compare a method to get food with killing an unborn baby? Really?! *sigh...*

    121. Re:So... when? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      women who are victims of rape or incest could give up their children for adoption and never have to endure childbirth for a child that was forced upon them

      By definition if you have produced a child you have gone through childbirth, even if they take out the egg the instant it is fertilised.

      In cases of rape or incest, it is not the physical discomfort of giving birth that is the issue, it is the utterly horrifying thought that your attacker has gained victory by propogating his genes through you, the victim.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    122. Re:So... when? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and a nocturnal emission is murder by omission.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    123. Re:So... when? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      A fertilized egg not properly implanting and therefore not becoming a viable embryo is, based on my understanding, a rather common occurrence in a woman's life.

      So, in essence, all women over the age of eleven are murderers? I really think something should be done about this.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    124. Re:So... when? by Chibi+Merrow · · Score: 1

      The better analogy would be a 15 year old girl being forced by the government to drop out of high school to care for a relative she'd never even met and who didn't care at all whether he lived or died (and didn't even know what living and dying meant, for that matter) and who had never formed any relationships with anyone or even met anyone at all (or even known that anyone even existed) - all because some religious nutjobs wanted to "punish" the girl for having sex without being married.

      Our actions have consequences. I wouldn't want the girl punished, but I would want the girl to take responsibility for her choice to have sex. At no point does religion enter into my thought process.

      If you don't want to risk having kids, don't have sex. It's pretty simple, really.

      --
      Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
      Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
    125. Re:So... when? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it is very important to consider how the childbearing woman feels. I don't think that anyone can judge a woman's choice. Most of us, even those who have been and there done that, don't know exactly what a woman facing the issue full frontal is going through. Each woman's circumstance is different, and each pregnancy is different.

  6. New? by Improv · · Score: 1

    I thought this was a well-established fact -- I remember being taught this in one of my psych classes.

    --
    For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
    1. Re:New? by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      What's taught in psych 101 is that babies recognize their mothers voices. Recognizing a voice vs. learning language skills is quite different.

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    2. Re:New? by Improv · · Score: 1

      Right, but I learned that phoneme acquisition began in embryonic states in a psycholinguistics class I took.

      --
      For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
  7. Uh Oh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The pro-abortion crowd isn’t going to like this. The Science Daily better prepare themselves for personal attacks. If you’re a scientist anyways, that shouldn’t matter IMHO. Knowledge is knowledge.

  8. Nerds and abortion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would think that nerds see that eating meat is just like abortion.

  9. Oh, no... by ratpick · · Score: 1

    Does that mean the girls who "talk like THIS," ending every sentence or phrase on a higher note like they're asking a QUESTION, are going to breed more people who sound like dipshits right out of the womb? Credit due Stewie for defining this behaviour.

    1. Re:Oh, no... by Opyros · · Score: 1

      It's known as "uptalk"; see e.g. this old Language Log post.

  10. Implications for artifical gestation by t3sser4ct · · Score: 1

    I wonder what this would imply for infants developed in artificial wombs, with no physical contact with another human until after the moment of "birth" (as in Huxley's Brave New World). How would it affect the child's linguistic development and psychology?

    1. Re:Implications for artifical gestation by Sebilrazen · · Score: 1

      Good question, I think you could do studies based on the children of deaf/mute mothers, that's probably as close as you'll come to iso-vat babies for a while.

      --
      "There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
  11. It's anecdotal, but... by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I remember when my daughter was born. She was 9 weeks early, so she spent several weeks in the neonatal ICU. What was interesting (and maybe somewhat relevant) is that quite often when my wife spoke, our daughter would seem to turn her head towards the sound. My voice didn't seem to have the same effect, nor did the voices of the medical staff.

    The nurses at the hospital thought it was "cute" and didn't seem all that surprised - so I guess I am rather surprised this stuff is apparently new info and not settled science.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:It's anecdotal, but... by garcia · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I just went to a baby class where they demonstrated the power of the parents' voices over that of anyone else speaking to the baby. While two people compete voice wise for the baby's attention, the father will win out over strangers and the mother will win out over all.

    2. Re:It's anecdotal, but... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      I remember when my daughter was born. She was 9 weeks early, so she spent several weeks in the neonatal ICU. What was interesting (and maybe somewhat relevant) is that quite often when my wife spoke, our daughter would seem to turn her head towards the sound. My voice didn't seem to have the same effect, nor did the voices of the medical staff.

      When my wife was pregnant, she told me that my daughter would stop moving whenever I spoke.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re:It's anecdotal, but... by Eil · · Score: 1

      I think what's new here is that the babies picked up the patterns of the local language before even being born and incorporated them into their pre-speech sounds. (Cries and general babbling.)

      It's a well-known phenomenon that newborns tend to be attuned to the sound of their mother's voice. And from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes perfect sense: A baby depends on her mother for everything from food to physical protection, and the mother (well, most mothers anyway) gets a feeling of immense satisfaction from attending to the needs of the child so that the child can grow up and pass on her genes.

      Our daughter is 4 months old and most of the time she wants nothing to do with me if she knows her mother is nearby. Although she seems to recognize me as someone important, she will literally strain to keep mom in her field of view if at all possible.

  12. Re:Domestic violence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Blame the victim.

    When homosexual homeless men become bored they begin writing. It's babylonian. It does not even matter what they write about. When homosexual homeless men become bored they begin writing.

  13. Makes Sense by kitsunewarlock · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Makes sense. Even without an ear, the baby is basically living in a giant fluid filled sac connected only a couple feet away from the source of the noise. A person's body is basically one giant ear (hence why you can hear something you whisper or a bone in your foot crack when you stretch despite the fact no one around you can hear it).

    --
    Ginga no Rekshiya Mata Each page.
    1. Re:Makes Sense by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Makes sense. Even without an ear, the baby is basically living in a giant fluid filled sac connected only a couple feet away from the source of the noise.

      What's novel here is that, for a long time ( about 100 years or so ), they thought that a human brain did almost nothing at a higher level ( like language acquisition ). The orthodox thinking was that about two years old, when neuron's myelin sheathes are fully formed, thus insulating the neurons, the baby can finally do some real cognition. But not before.

      Now we're finding out that quite a bit is going on much earlier than anyone suspected.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
  14. Abhimanyu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ability of a fetus to learn in the womb has been part of Hindu mythology for a loooooong time.

    Check out:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhimanyu

    Hindus have strict restricts on pregnant women because of this. Of course not everyone follows these, but it is generally the case to keep pregnant women in a pleasant and positive environment..

    It is good to see that this has been scientifically validated.

    1. Re:Abhimanyu by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Uh, it hasn't been. All this study suggests is that the fetus may begin to develop the most rudimentary language skills in the womb, which isn't even remotely the same as "[learning] the knowledge of entering the deadly and virtually impenetrable Chakravyuha".

      So no, this doesn't justify your pet superstition.

    2. Re:Abhimanyu by mahadiga · · Score: 1

      Let me reveal you a little secret.
      Whenever you see Hindu or Hinduism read it as Caste or Casteism aka Racism.
      US Congress Resolution
      UNHRC Resolution
      Prime Minister of India

      --
      I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
    3. Re:Abhimanyu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So no, this doesn't justify your pet superstition.

      I agree, some few years of study is no match for thousands of years of critical observation and documentation (what is preserved as folklore or superstition).

      Another 30-40 years have to pass, for this to get patented as new knowledge... as they did with other superstitions like medicinal value of Turmeric, Neem and Ginger!

  15. A language ey? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This begs the question how to teach an infant the basics of Java, Perl, C# or other language... Should you start with syntax or semantics and how would you teach either?

    Which language would you teach an infant, I guess I would go for Assembly, that way it'd garner a greater insight into the workings of.. hmm maybe I misinterpreted something here.

  16. Re:Domestic violence by lilomar · · Score: 2, Funny

    Troll? Yes.
    But - There is a certain poetic rhythm to the post.

    When ladies become bored they begin talking.
    It's babylonian. It does not even matter what they talk about.
    When ladies become bored they begin talking.

    It's sad when a potential artist turns to the dark side.

    --
    The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
  17. And another important point! by sgt_doom · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Not only is Kathleen Wermke a hot babe goddess, but speaking of the University of Wurzburg, has anyone ever tried making a pancake batch or waffle batch using Wurzburger Dark beer?

    Really makes for a great breakfast!!!!!!

  18. Starvation by tepples · · Score: 1

    You're going to have to demonstrate that "to save the life of the mother" is equivalent to "i can't live with a child"

    How about "I'm so poor that if I feed a child, I starve to death"?

    1. Re:Starvation by Hucko · · Score: 1

      Demonstrate is different to hypothesize hypotheticals

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    2. Re:Starvation by tepples · · Score: 1

      Want evidence that women seek abortions out of poverty? Let me Google that for you.

    3. Re:Starvation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kill em `n Grill em.

    4. Re:Starvation by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      Want evidence that women seek abortions out of poverty? Let me Google that for you.

      Those sites are all talking about reasons for considering abortion, but none of them mention the third trimester in relation to them. Most women will have known that they're pregnant months before then, so the question "Will the financial burden of having a child be so great that the mother starves, therefore warranting a third trimester abortion to save the life of the mother?" doesn't come up.

      You've also neglected adoption, which, at that late stage, if the mother really just doesn't want the child, seems to me like the most ethical route to follow.

    5. Re:Starvation by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      How about giving up the baby for adoption rather than killing it? What a novel idea!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
  19. Whose choice? by tepples · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The chosen terminology by each group is pro-life and pro-choice. Respect it.

    Do "pro-choice" platforms take into account the father's choice or the child's choice?

  20. Temeraire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No surprise here.

  21. June 2006 by tepples · · Score: 1

    I thought there was no more Yugoslavia.

    Yugoslavia existed until June 2006, when Montenegro declared independence. (From 2003 to 2006 it was called "Serbia and Montenegro", but it was still the same Yugoslav state established in 1992.) It may be the case that the law hasn't changed noticeably in the former Yugoslavia since then.

  22. They're Not "Babies," They're Fetuses by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    If we start calling them "babies," then we won't be able to murder them by the millions, guiltlessly.

    C'mon, people, get a clue...

  23. Bogus by bkhl · · Score: 1

    Summary of why the reporting on this story is mostly bogus here:

    http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1869

  24. abortion? really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would someone please explain to me what this has has to do with abortion (currently tagged)?

    1. Re:abortion? really? by owlstead · · Score: 1

      Because all these zealots blow their fuse once anything mentioning pregnancy is involved. This is (mainly) about the last stage of pregnancy though (the last ~14 weeks), so up to week 26. Even if there was anything interesting happening weeks before that stage it would not get into period that most women get an abortion. However, any sign of conciousness in early child development might fuel this debate.

      "At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
      52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy."

      And these stats are from a (US) pro-life site.

      (I got interested enough to see if there was any merit discussing this regarding abortion, but after looking at these facts I decided for myself that this discussion is off-topic).

  25. Fish in a Barrel by Nocuous · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And yes, I consider having sex consenting to become pregnant. You know damn well it can happen, if it would be a problem, keep your damn legs shut.

    And yes, I consider driving on the highway consenting to be maimed and crippled for life, or killed. You know damn well it can happen, if it would be a problem, keep your damn car off the highway.

    Too easy.

    --
    Don't take it personally, but I'm not going to read your pithy response to my post.
  26. Re:Domestic violence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good to see that misogyny is alive and kicking well into the 21st century.

  27. Visiting friends expecting their first child by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We got together about once a week during here last two trimesters. They weren't keen on going out or being isolated so we went to their place and talk smart. After a while it seemed the soon to be born boy was responding to my deep voice and belly laughs. Mom thought that he was enjoying it, in any case she was and that may have been a clue to him. (Hmm, another study) After the boy was born I think he was very quick to respond and comforted by my deep voice and belly laughs as he seemed to recognize them. I've seen other studies showing how infants are able to understand speech and use sign language at around six months, months before their vocal cords give them the ability to speak. You have to wonder if foetuses ever contemplate their own existence, feel loneliness or a sense of purpose.

  28. change your question to nine months... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Change your question to nine months instead of three months, and now you have a reason to make all contraception illegal. Heck change it to one year and you have a reason to force either partner to have sex when the other wants a child.

    FAIL.

  29. Just remember, it's not a baby... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a mass of tumorous cells until the mother decides it is "wanted".

  30. Mahabharata by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If I am not wrong, this is not new. This is already documented in "Mahabharata", the story of Bharata, an Indian epic.

    The story goes that, Abhimanyu, son of Arjuna, learns about the secret technique of entering into a special batallion formation, while still in womb, being explained outside by Krishna to Arjuna. But he happens to hear only half, he is moved away and does not hear how to come out. This hurts him during the war of Mahabharata, when he remembers to enter the formation but not able to come out.

  31. Yes, Texas, I'm looking at you by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    If we start calling them "babies," then we won't be able to murder them by the millions, guiltlessly.

    Of course you will. You just have to wait a few years then frame them for a crime.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  32. I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess this explains my affinity for mid-1980s synthesizer music.

  33. Unbelievable findings you mean! by rve · · Score: 1

    I'm glad we have scientific evidence to back it up, but did anyone believe this wasn't the case? Is anybody surprised by these findings?

    I'm extremely surprised, and in fact very suspicious of this finding, for the simple reason that newborns are unable to control the noises they make. They're not even aware that that sound is coming from their own tiny mouths, or even that they have a mouth.

    Babies have to learn what their senses mean and what their bodies can do. They don't know they have hands, and may be frightened of those little things wiggling in their field of vision, or their grasping reflex might cause them to claw their own eyes, which is unpleasant and makes them cry, but it doesn't occur to them that they can stop doing it. They may be scared of the sound of their own crying, but it doesn't occur to them that they can just stop. It's not until about 6 to 8 weeks after birth before they slowly start to realize that the weird sensation in their ears happens every time they cry, and that they have some control over this process. Gradually over the course of months they discover new sounds they can make, and like to practice those for hours on end, until they discover a new one and start to practice that.

    The suggestion that newborns immediately after birth have the ability to control their vocal cords enough to imitate what they hear, be it on a conscious or subconscious level, not only goes against the literature I've read about the subject, but also against my own observations. My English 'speaking' baby cries just like my brother and I did when we were German 'speaking' babies. Not surprising, since he looks just like me as a baby, and I looked like my brother as a baby, so all three of us probably had a similarly shaped mouth and vocal cords.

  34. Re:Domestic violence by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    The real fact behind this is of course, that for women, it often does not matter all all, what the actual words say. It's the emotions that she receives. This is perhaps the single biggest misunderstanding in relationships. So men, try to listen to the emotional content of your communication for once, when you notice a lack of harmony. And women, try to look at it with plain emotionless logic, in those cases. (Who am I telling this to? Everybody knows there are no women on /. ^^)

    I'm not saying that any of those forms of communication is better or worse. (If you thought that was was I was saying, that says more about your own views and biases. :)
    I think it's pretty great that we have those two highly advanced forms of communication, adapted to the specific needs. Just as we have specialized genders. You will never be able to do alone, what you can do with teamwork. So yay to genders and their differences! :)

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.