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StarCraft AI Competition Announced

Posted by Soulskill on from the here-comes-the-reaperzerg dept.

bgweber writes "The 2010 conference on Artificial Intelligence and Interactive Digital Entertainment (AIIDE 2010) will be hosting a StarCraft AI competition as part of the conference program. This competition enables academic researchers to evaluate their AI systems in a robust, commercial RTS environment. The competition will be held in the weeks leading up to the conference. The final matches will be held live at the conference with commentary. Exhibition matches will also be held between skilled human players and the top-performing bots."

32 of 200 comments (clear)

  1. What could possibly go wrong? by webdog314 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Let's teach our AI systems how to do battle... against humans. Skynet anyone?

    1. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by Trent+Hawkins · · Score: 4, Funny

      at one point the AI will realize that it's far easier to beat the human by hacking in to military computers and nuking the player.

    2. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by Icegryphon · · Score: 3, Funny

      at one point the AI will realize that it's far easier to beat the human by hacking in to military computers and nuking the player.

      Then the human players will black out the sky.

    3. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by nobodylocalhost · · Score: 5, Funny

      *Nuclear launch detected*

      --
      Where is the "Ignorant" mod tag?
    4. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by Temujin_12 · · Score: 4, Funny

      *Nuclear launch detected*

      I remember playing Starcraft at a LAN party after I figured out how to rip the sound effects and voices out of the Starcraft data files. I'd intentionally play with the sound on (no headphones), wait just enough time so that it was believable yet frighteningly early, alt-tab over to a WAV player, then play the sound for "Nuclear launch detected" and watch people frantically scan their bases. It only works once, so use it wisely.

      --
      Faith is a willingness to accept something w/o complete proof and to act on it. Reason allows you to correct that faith.
    5. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by Disgruntled+Goats · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, but then that means they will be less likely to check that second time when you really do launch nukes at them. That's when they end up getting humiliated.

  2. Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by ChowRiit · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Perhaps a game not so dominated by rushing tactics would be a better choice of base game? It definitely seems an interesting idea, but there must be games better suited to an AI contest like this...

    1. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How would you rather it be setup? I have not found a single RTS that isn't dominated by Rushing Tactics. I still play Age of Empires 2 for the whole walling off thing but it still doesn't beat a well developed rush.

    2. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by DreadPiratePizz · · Score: 3, Informative

      You have no idea what you're talking about do you? Go watch the professionals play and see how often they rush. Not that often anymore. Modern Starcraft is dominated by Fast Expanding, which is quite the opposite of a rush.

    3. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't know how you define rush.... I've had people complain that an attack after 10 minutes was a rush. Even the 6-pool was easily defeated by the proper build order and positioning. As a matter of fact, I liked SC more than others because every strategy had a proper counter. The only thing that was required was scouting - otherwise the other person could come in with the counter to your troops.

      While I don't think it is a great medium for a test, it's a pretty good one. Especially if the AI has to deal with fog of war.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    4. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 3, Informative

      Rushing is an elementary strategy. You should learn to defend against it rather than complaining that it isn't far (in a war simulation game no less).

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    5. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 3, Informative

      StarCraft is only dominated by rush tactics when the players don't have the skills to defend against a rush. In StarCraft attempting a rush dooms you to failure if the rush doesn't fatally wound your opponent ('cause you stunted your economy to build your rushers). Correctly defending against a rush is mostly micromanagement (using your workers correctly to defend, which means constantly issuing them the attack orders they need since they won't attack on their own, while keeping some working on your economy). AIs should excel at micromanagement. I don't think rushing would be a problem in a StarCraft AI match.

    6. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's been a couple of years, but whenever I watched Boxer in the Korean SC tournaments a while back - the match is usually over within 15 or 20 minutes because they'd never need to progress past Dragoons, Hydra's, or Medics.

      An expansive SC player would be destroyed by 8 zerglings before he could get that second Command center off.

    7. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by DreadPiratePizz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not true at all, the 1 RAX Fast Expand build is designed to allow a Terran player to expand early and EASILY defend against 8 zerglings. For you information, a lot has changed in just a few years.

    8. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by Sprotch · · Score: 4, Informative

      A good player can defend against a rush in Starcraft. It's all about micro-managing peons until your first combat unit arrives. Then you go head straight for their economically challenged base.

    9. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by A+Friendly+Troll · · Score: 5, Interesting

      How would you rather it be setup? I have not found a single RTS that isn't dominated by Rushing Tactics.

      Company of Heroes. http://www.companyofheroes.com/

      It's a modern RTS which utilizes things such as directional cover, suppression and per-squad reinforcements, as well as rewards proper flanking. Unless, of course, you try to prevent said flanking by placing some barbed wire and mines...

      There is no such thing as rushing in CoH; the game doesn't reward rushing because it will end with a horribly tragic loss for the player who attempts it (!). You can't wall-off because you need some map control, resources need to be connected to your base in order to receive them, and your low popcap (based on the number of captured sectors) spells your ultimate doom. The nature of the game is that for the most part, each side has no more than ten units on the field. You can be a very good player even if you aren't a hyperactive teen capable of performing ten clicks per second.

      Bottom line: if someone wants to rush you, you will win the game in five minutes. But if you want to wall-off, this game isn't for you, as it requires constant fighting on multiple parts of the map.

    10. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by FauxPasIII · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Star Trek Armada and Armada II had a decent approach to preventing early-game rushes; your "town hall" equivalent building (starbase) is armed to the teeth. =)

      --
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    11. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Expanding on the parent...

      Every matchup except for Zerg vs. Zerg starts with EXTREMELY fast expanding these days. Usually before they even have a single non-peon unit out. Hell, zergs expand TWICE right off the bat against Protoss. The players have figured out how to stop these early rushes with building placement, micro and build orders.

      If I were to guess, less than 2% of pro games in recent times are very early rushes aimed at killing a fast expanding players. Early rushes do happen more often than that but they are always with the intent of doing economic damage to get an advantage in the late game.

    12. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by EvanED · · Score: 3, Informative

      Every matchup except for Zerg vs. Zerg starts with EXTREMELY fast expanding these days. Usually before they even have a single non-peon unit out

      That's not really true, at least the latter part. Protoss will often forge fast-expand, especially against Zerg, but other openings like one gate tech aren't uncommon. For terran, you almost never see expand-before-marine, and often there's no expand until the factory is building.

      So you *see* FEs like that in each matchup, I wouldn't call them *the* standard build except for Zerg in ZvT and both sides in ZvP.

    13. Re:Is StarCraft the right game to use for this? by Khashishi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd like to see how this statement changes after the winner of the competition is unveiled.

  3. Re:Breakdown by aliquis · · Score: 5, Funny

    Human Advantages:
    Imagined Prediction Advantage
    Flexible Stategies
    Arguably Faster Learning

    AI Advantages:
    Able to command all units at once
    Usually More efficient w/ resources
    Instant Macro management

    Korean Advantages:
    Superior Strategies
    Advanced Prediction
    Flexible Tactics
    Arguably Faster Learning
    Able to command all units at once
    Usually More efficient w/ resources
    Instant Macro management

    Fixed that for you :D

  4. Re:Breakdown by Chyeld · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Most game AI's are not well designed, but not because they can't be. Most game AI's are built from the prespective that the player should be able to win, therefore Grandmaster level thinking is less desirable than preditable patterns that seem impossible to be till the player realizes they can be exploited.

  5. Re:Brood War by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

    Instead of an AI that can win at Starcraft, maybe they ought to try to build an AI that can finish Starcraft 2.

    Apparently, that's a much greater challenge.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  6. Re:Does AI have to be good? by EvanED · · Score: 4, Informative

    Depends where you look. Last month's KESPA ratings (the latest, at least on TLPD) put Jaedong at #1 and flash down at #6. In fact, the last time he wasn't #1 in that ranking was March.

  7. Re:competition announced? by Caspin · · Score: 4, Informative

    The competition starts NEXT October (ie 2010). It's still 2009 check a calendar.

  8. naughty ai would win by hort_wort · · Score: 5, Funny

    My AI would design its base to be a rough representation of a naughty picture on the minimap. Human players would always lose as they just let the AI build away to see the picture get a higher resolution.

    1. Re:naughty ai would win by ZarathustraDK · · Score: 3, Funny

      Easily countered with a Goatse-base centered around a vespene-geyser.

      --
      If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
  9. Re:blacksheepwall by Tawnos · · Score: 4, Informative

    It must be very difficult if you cannot click the link under "rules"
    #
    Programs that attempt to cheat will be disqualified

          1.
                Bots must disable the perfect information flag in tournaments 1,2 and 4

  10. Re:Easy to make.. by Goateee · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A player could feel more satisfied if it plays against a computer with the same knowledge and resources as a human player, because then it would have to play more like a human. With such cheats, the player will feel annoyed that the computer always attack when he is the weakest, without real knowledge, or can attack with twise the units he know is the maximum at a given time.

  11. Re:Breakdown by Frogbert · · Score: 5, Funny

    Worst. Poem. Ever.

  12. Re:Breakdown by RedFlames · · Score: 4, Informative

    (I apologize in advance for the lack of paragraph spacing. Slashdot appears not to recognize the carriage return/line feed from this browser/computer?) Most games(I dare say almost all AAA titles) don't have anything resembling actual AI. Including AI is very very expensive computationally, it simply isn't feasible for most of the lower-end consumer users. To get around this, most games include a large variety of playbooks that define how the computer opponent should build, what to build, when to attack, etc... Sometimes there are minimal elements of AI, such as "if (terran) skip zergling rush". But, by and large, the AI is simply following a set of rules of when/what to build. If you switch the mode to "hard", most games simply ratchet up the minerals/second income for the computer, or remove fog of war (all Blizzard games do this). If you wish to experiment for yourself the 'ORTS' engine is a near replica of StarCraft but fully open-sourced. (http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~mburo/orts/) I believe there are multiple AI examples included (there used to be) so you can foray into the challenges presented by real AIs; computers that actually adapt their playing style to your own. As a warning, the engine does not abstract away details to make it easier (eg: there are unit collisions, writing a script to mine a patch of minerals effectively suddenly became much much harder). Disclosure: I am not affiliated with the ORTS engine directly, but I did take a class in my undergrad doing game AI on it.

  13. Re:Breakdown by Red+Flayer · · Score: 3, Informative

    (I apologize in advance for the lack of paragraph spacing. Slashdot appears not to recognize the carriage return/line feed from this browser/computer?)

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