Vulgar Comment On Newspaper Site Costs Man His Job

DeeFresh writes "ReadWriteWeb has an article up today discussing an incident in which a school employee lost his job after leaving a comment on the website of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch newspaper. After the school employee responded to the newspaper's poll of 'the strangest thing you've ever eaten' with a feline-inspired vulgarity, Kurt Greenbaum, the site's director of social media, tracked down the commenter's identity through his IP address and reported him to school officials. When confronted, the school employee resigned from his job."

Comments

Pussy. There, I said it.

[GPLDAN]

I say everyone on /. should head over the St. Louis Post Dispatch page and post variations on the word. There must be 100 words in the English language for it, so let's get started....

Re:Pussy. There, I said it.

[MrNaz]

I agree. This isn't some Orwell-inspired conspiracy to silence freedom of expression, this is a valid objection to the use of equipment in an educational institution being used inappropriately. Yes, censorship and coalescing of power in the hands of the government/corporate complex is a huge problem faced by the general population of western nations, but lets identify the problem rather than burning down the house to kill the termites. I don't agree with the idea that social taboo as a means of behavioral regulation is a bad thing. Telling teachers to behave in a manner that highlights to children how we would like the future generation to conduct themselves is not OMG CENSORSHIP, it's the process by which tribal savages become productive farmers, who become orderly towns people who become civilized nations. Take a walk out to the streets in a large city these days, and the behavior you'll see makes the marauding Vikings look positively gentlemanly.

The outcry about this really highlights in my mind the fact that society today has decided that finding common morality is a bit too hard to bother, and apathetically defaulted to a state of total moral disintegration. It's not censorship to think that civilized people should act, well, civilized. To all of you who think that it's some kind of social repression to frown upon people who make a habbit of unashamedly expressing themselves in a vulgar and crass manner, I suggest you go see the movie Idiocracy, because it's about YOU.

Re:Pussy. There, I said it.

[edmicman]

To all of you who think that it's some kind of social repression to frown upon people who make a habbit of unashamedly expressing themselves in a vulgar and crass manner, I suggest you go see the movie Idiocracy, because it's about YOU.

You talk like a fag, and your shit's all retarded.

Re:Pussy. There, I said it.

[FatdogHaiku]

While strong language may occasionally be appropriate, I tend to believe the old axiom that:

"Profanity is the last bastion of desperately inarticulate motherfuckers"

Re:Pussy. There, I said it.

[be951]

I mostly agree with you, but not this part:

The newspaper did the right thing.

Nope. Wrong. Aside from violating their own privacy policy, he (Greenbaum, the newspaper guy) went counter to the idea of anonymous commenting. If you want to be able to call someone out, don't allow anonymous posting. If an anonymous poster is being a nuisance (and one re-post probably should not qualify -- the poster could have assumed transmission error or some such) block his IP address.

Re:Pussy. There, I said it.

[BobMcD]

The newspaper did the right thing. Someone repeatedly posting something after it has been deleted should be addressed. It was vulgar, and a large part of society thinks so. He did not get the poster fired, the poster resigned because he was discovered doing something he knew he shouldn't be doing and thought he couldn't be found out. Tough shit.

The newspaper did the wrong thing. They got really close to doing the right thing, but what seems like a vengeance motive pushed them over the edge.

The wrong thing, that they elected to do, was to attach personal consequences to allegedly anonymous speech. If it is anonymous, it is off the record, and should bear no weight in the real world. This concept is similar to that of the informant, the whistle blower, the confidant, etc. In the Slashdot context, we're not usually anonymous, though there is an option for that. I'll come back to this point...

The right thing, or perhaps an opportunity for a right thing done, was to call out the behavior in question without providing the means to attach any punishment to it. Perhaps they could have informed the school that someone violated their rules on multiple occasions and that if the behavior continued they would ban the school's IP from being able to contact the site. There should have been some kind of a track that gets the site the desired effect (the comments stop) without exacting severe negative consequences on the offender. Because again, there was the illusion of an anonymity pact.

As an example of this pact, imagine if Slashdot were to go back to all the comments you have posted AC over the years, match them by IP to your ordinary comments, and 'out' you publicly. Would you not feel betrayed? I certainly would.

By offering the option, you are allowing the free expression that comes along with it. The simple solution is to require users to log in, thereby allowing you the accountability desired without setting up a false covenant.

What?

[Thyamine]

How bored was this guy? He worked at a newspaper and decided 'Hey, I don't like that comment, let me track down who it is, where he works, and report him?' What is this, the second grade? There are two real options, delete it as being offensive or leave it. Maybe a third option if it was a threat of some kind, which you could report to authorities. But really?

Re:What?

[ZekoMal]

According to TFA, it happened...twice.

Re:What?

[Rob the Bold]

RTFA

he did delete the comment and the guy from the school kept posting the same thing multiple times

So what? How hard is it to delete it multiple times. That guy could be replaced by a shell script. And anyway, these reader feedback forums on newspapers' websites (and elsewhere) are just an open invitation for every crank, crackpot and wacko in town (and the whole internet) to post whatever vile, stupid, racist, crazy, nonsensical comment they can come up with.

First, we had letters to the editor. You had to take pen or keyboard in hand, crank out a physical copy, mail it in and even then the editors only posted a sampling of the feedback on any given subject. Usually, the editors even tried to get a balanced discussion on controversial topics -- at least in terms of number of letters.

Then we get the phone-in comment line. Any loser with a phone and time to burn could rant to his hearts content. The messages were kept short by the recording time limit, so the paper could print a bunch on the comment page. Uninformed illiterates could finally voice their ill-considered, illogical opinions in a public forum. But at least the finite amount of space on the page and the fact the editors had to choose which ones to print kept things to a dull but stupid roar.

Fast forward to on-line comments. Space is practically unlimited, so the editors no longer even bother to review comments prior to posting. Anything and everything gets put up for all to see until someone comes around to delete the really bad stuff (racism, threats, pointless profanity, rabid non-sequiturs, etc.)

Again, I say, if you create such a forum, you are begging for this kind of thing. Hunting down one guy for double-posting a profanity (and a slightly funny -- but cliched -- on-topic one at that) is really overkill, when there's plenty of really bad stuff to be dealt with. "Pussyman" was clearly singled out for personal reasons on the part of the newspaper employee for special treatment. Poster was a little stupid and childish, but the editor was mean and spiteful.

Kurt Greenbaum, you are stupid, puritanical scum

[drinkypoo]

Not only that, but he's a fucking hypocrite. He called this guy's employer up with the goal of having him fired, and when cornered over the issue said:

"Yeah, you caught me! I made him log on to his computer at work, visit STLtoday.com's Talk of the Day, read the item, type a vulgarity and hit the "submit" key.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for your contribution.

Oh, I didn't say he was fired. I said he resigned.

"A vulgarity"? You mean the word pussy? OMFG WHAT WOULD JESUS THINK IF HE SAW THAT WORD? Guess what? People have sex.

P.S. Forced to resign is much the same thing as being fired, especially since in this day and age he could probably have been sued for sexual harassment over such a comment, thus completely ending any future employability.

Using the word 'pussy' on school time is simply not that bad. Of course, I can't attach these comments to the article itself, because comments are disabled there now even though the story is only three days old. Perhaps that's because most of the comments go something like this:

YOU are the director of social media? tools to be leveraged to get businesses closer to their customers?

what an awful story and it's even more embarassing that you squawk about it after the fact.

Kurt Greenbaum is scum, and I will do my best to avoid their website in the future.

No place for this kind of crap in America.

[Anonymous Coward]

Kurt Greenbaum should be ashamed. There is no place whatsoever for that kind of behavior in America.

Somebody simply wanted to freely express himself, and Kurt interfered. Absolutely pathetic.

Pay back

[headhot]

Some one should track every thing Kurt posts and report back to his boss and wife.

Re:Pay back

[csartanis]

Did Kurt Greenbaum rape and murder a young girl in 1990? Heh, just kidding!

I see a lot of weak people here in the story...

[filesiteguy]

Wow! I'd say that Greenbaum should be reprimanded for not performing his duties. I wonder where - in the St. Louis Dispatch policies - it states for employees to track down the ip address of those making offensive (but not illegal) posts and then contact the work.

OTOH, why the heck did the teacher resign at first being contacted? I wonder how much more there is to the story than we're seeing.

Lesson learned: When making anonymous posts, use either a proxy, an anonymous posting service (COTSE.NET), someone's open WiFi connection, or a friend's computer.

"We reserve the right"

[tacarat]

We reserve the right in our sole discretion, but do not assume any obligation, to refuse to post, remove, or edit any messages or postings sent to the Site.

We reserve the right to suspend or terminate your access to and use of this Site if, in our view, your conduct fails to meet any of our guidelines. We also reserve the right to change these terms at any time.

Well, fire Greenbaum. STLtoday.com didn't reserve the right for him to track people down and harass them through their employer, nor did he use the agreed upon remedies outlined in the terms of service. I guess even the editors don't read those things.

Re:"We reserve the right"

[Venerable Vegetable]

Also following excerpts are from their privacy policy:

Our web servers automatically collect limited information about your computer's connection to the Internet, including your IP address (but not the e-mail address), when you visit our sites. Your IP address does not contain personally identifiable information, nor does it identify you personally.

We will not share individual user information with third parties unless the user has specifically approved the release of that information. In some cases, however, we may provide information to legal officials as described in “Compliance with Legal Process” below.

Eating a pussy is cool, but eating pussy is not?

[RiotingPacifist]

Still on the site is the story of how some guy killed and ate a cat (is that even legal?), but that is ofc fine, however the guy posting an innuendo obviously went too far!

Re:He got it coming

[ZekoMal]

Nah; I don't need to sully any of that. He resigned (we obviously do not have all of the information, because I honestly doubt that the conversation went "you said pussy twice!" and the guy went "GAH oh noes I quit! D:") because "concerned citizen" noticed that this was coming from a local school IP address. Now, this could have two variations: if it was an elementary school, it would seem strange. If it was either a middle or high school, well, it could have easily been from any student who felt like trolling.

So, Mr. concerned citizen forwarded a message along the lines of "this e-mail address from your IP address said "pussy" twice on my website". If it had been any student e-mail, that would be the end of it because the teachers just do not have student e-mail addresses on file (usually). If it had been the headmasters e-mail address, Mr. concerned citizen would have been duly ignored.

And then Mr. concerned citizen writes an article celebrating his ability to turn someone in for saying "pussy" twice. It's slightly difficult (and disturbing) to believe that Mr. concerned citizen had the local school IP address memorized to the point where a brief glance at the e-mail alert tipped him off that this was a serious issue.

It will be a delight to see if this becomes a normal thing. You know, adults posting on a not-child oriented website and being punished for using naughty words. I'm sure the teacher wasn't on a lunch break, or wasn't waiting for 1200 copies to print, or wasn't waiting for his students to finish a test, etc. Almost as atrocious as someone replying to slashdot on the clock, with their employers computer assets.

But maybe I just find the idea of being tracked to your job by a hypersensitive journalist a little off putting. Suppose he decides that he should moderate out disagreeable posts? He's well within his rights to do so, as a moderator.

I just find it ridiculous that the adults have greater difficulty coping with foul language than the kids. Seriously, it's a word. Delete it and warn him if you really feel threatened by it; you don't contact the organization it came from. How comical it would have been if he had called them instead..."Hello Mr. Rumples, I have a serious issue to address. You see, someone from within your school said pussy....twice. On the internet."

Re:He got it coming

[intheshelter]

"Now I can't way to see the juvenile posters making this a case of libertarian freedom of speech"

- And who can blame them after your juvenile post blathering about "being on the clock". Jeez, wake up and realize that nitpicking about being on the clock was never the point of this discussion. The point was why the hell was that asshole tracking commenters down? What kind of a dickhead reports someone for posting on the very message board that he left open for comments?

Don't want comments, shut down that functionality. If you do want comments either moderate them or just deal with a few vulgar posts. And whatever you do, don't post the question "what is the grossest thing you've ever eaten" and not be smart enough to see the comments that are coming your way.

While the posts were a bit juvenile and the guy shouldn't have done it during school hours, they aren't noteworthy enough to cost a person his job. The most juvenile act in this story was the vindictive way the guy was hunted down. Sorry, but put it in perspective and realize it's just one little word.

Would this journalist protect his sources?

[carou]

Clearly, the standards of journalistic integrity are going down.

Re:Would this journalist protect his sources?

[Anonymous Coward]

I see what you did there, you cunning linguist.

Re:Would this journalist protect his sources?

[need4mospd]

Yes, they're quite clearly still thinking inside the box.

Re:He got it coming

[SleepingWaterBear]

It is also worth noting that the school didn't fire him, but that he quit on the spot... or so says the story, but that's irrelevant anyways. The guy had it coming.

Ok, we're all agreed the guy was an idiot idiot for posting at all. But he 'had it coming?' Really? Suppose instead he'd made two posts to slashdot in that time - a clear misuse of school property - would he deserve to lose his job then? What if he'd posted and reposted a critique on some sort of scientology blog - would he deserve to lose his job then? It seems to me that the reason this guy lost his job is because he violated the ridiculous community morals of a small town, not because of anything to do with misuse of school resources.

At one point in my life I seriously considered becoming a teacher, but I realized that doing so would likely place me at the mercy of the sorts of unthinking bigoted responses we're seeing here. This attitude is at least part of the reason our public education system is failing - the work environment is so unpleasant that (with the exception of a few saints) no one with another option for a career would do it. Would you really want to work beside people who are so shocked by a couple one word internet posts that you can't work with them anymore?

Re:Puritannical?

[TheKidWho]

He only posted the comment twice... Have you ever posted a comment and not seen it appear, only to think that the request never went through and subsequently reposted the comment?

Re:Kurt Greenbaum, you are stupid, puritanical scu

[AnotherUsername]

What Greenbaum did was against the privacy policy of the site:

We will not share individual user information with third parties unless the user has specifically approved the release of that information.

"Freedom of Speech" on the Internet

[RobotRunAmok]

In America at least, you cannot be arrested for saying something stupid or even treasonous on the Internet. But that's it. That is the sum total of your protection. You can't be arrested, that's all there is to it. You CAN lose your job, lose any prospect for meaningful employment, lose your wife, lose the respect of your family, friends, and co-workers.

Never write anything anywhere on the Internet, "anonymously" or not, that you would not want your wife, boss, friends, or children to read. Period. It's not difficult to understand, yet we continually find ourselves trying to defend these losers as if they are some kind of free speech champions. They're not martyrs, they're morons. Giving these guys an Anonymous Login is like giving them a bottle of Tequila. Sure, it's their right, but you hope they have enough self-awareness to know how stupid and ugly they appear after they indulge.

Re:"Freedom of Speech" on the Internet

[syrinx]

Actually a "truly free country" has freedom of association, which implies freedom of lack of association. If a company doesn't want to be associated with you, they can fire you, for any reason whatsoever. And if you don't want to be associated with the company, you can quit, too.

Re:Mod parent up and GP down

[Anonymous Coward]

And make me a sandwich, bitch. Seriously, what the fuck is the point of stupid comments like "mod that guy up and that guy down"? First, do you think you have enough clout for the mods to do whatever the fuck you say? Second, it adds nothing of value to the conversation, only the fact that you're a dick, which we probably could have figured out on our own. If I had mod points I'd mod you down just for being a dumbass.

Re:He got it coming

[flyneye]

I suppose I could've modded you overrated,but that wouldn't do much more than fan the flames.
      Let's look at this from another perspective.A Meta perspective.
        Was the man wrong for typing pussy into a WWW forum?
        A. From the standpoint of being an employee, you bet he was wrong.
          B.From a freedom of speech in an open forum that made possible his opinion/joke perspective, no he was alright. Moderation and site administration are the responsibilities of the site owner.
          Now the new question, was the paper wrong for tracking the man down merely to take out their anxiety on, when they enabled him and many others to write whatever they like without scripted moderation?
          A.If he were actually protecting taxpayers,children,business assets he would be right, but this isn't the case. He did it out of anger on newspaper time to grind his own ax and make his moderating job easier by denial of freedom of speech to someone that he didn't know posted from a school. Had it been me from my home and a confrontation from him had ensued, he would be getting his nose reset.
          B. This is just outright being a snitch to aquire feelings of self righteous vengeance. Were I the fired man, I would expend my resources to have the snitch investigated for anything useable to make his life hell. Alert the IRS to possible living beyond his means. Complain to the neighborhood association about any infraction. Complain to the police about any unusual noise or parking violations in front of his house.
        I don't think you can find any case of society accepting a snitch as a welcome factor to any community. In the micro society of prison they are eliminated immediately. In society we end up having to pay for witness relocation. In schools they are the kid taunted mercilessly till graduation and possibly beaten frequently.
        This amounts to the paper baiting the man who would've posted from his home,were that his location at the time. Truthfully I hope he gets a good lawyer and starts working the snitch and the paper over.
          Resignation is often offered to well loved and respected offenders at most jobs for fireable offenses. Since it was a school and a newspaper was involved of course he was offered the choice. DUH.
      Should the man have been smarter? yes
      Should the man have been fired? no
      Should the newspaper be exposed by a meta story? Yes, but that won't happen, Newsclowns won't rat on newsclowns anymore than a cop will out a cop.
        This wasn't news this was revenge and I hope the rat gets his.

 

Really not paying attention to his readers

[Bazzargh]

Greenbaum is the social media editor at the newspaper. A while back he posted the results of a survey which showed that:
61% of his readers did not want the editors deciding what comments were offensive

Given his response to the comments on the article, I don't think he's any closer to understanding what he was told the first time.

Re:Naughty words, or not.

[ArsenneLupin]

I have eaten many different animals (or at least parts of them), including rattlesnake, crocodile, alligator, iguana, turtle, and many different molluscs, arthropods, echinoids, and whatnot from sea or river. I have also eaten squirrel, bear, dog, and cat. So, I can say I have eaten pussy, and you can interpret or misinterpret it any way you want. Oh, and woof-woof, too.

Yeah, I like Chinese food too.

It's a newspaper, damn it.

[argent]

It doesn't matter whether he "had it coming" or not.

Contacting the school violated the stated privacy policy of the site, whether it was a student or staff. We're talking about a newspaper, for god's sake. A newspaper should be the first to stand behind their privacy policy. Reporters have gone to jail to maintain the privacy of their sources, and while the online equivalent of "letters to the editor" isn't quite in the same league as "Deep Throat", this was still unacceptable behavior.

The St Louis Post-Dispatch needs to step up to the plate and bat for their own goddamn rights. If they DON'T do something about this violation of privacy, they weaken their own ability to protect their sources.

This is NOT about vulgarity

[webdog314]

I am amazed at the responses here on /. This is completely not about this moron's use of vulgarity. Of course he's an idiot, that's a given. More important is the fact that a paper gave what was supposed to be an anonymous poll with an obviously baiting question, and then used that information to track this guy down and ruin his life. In this case it was about some obscenities, but what's to say this couldn't have been about say, late-term abortion, or gay rights? Would you want someone tracking you down and exposing you over that information? Those topics are AT LEAST as enraging today as a couple of obscenities. The school employee was an idiot, but the guy at the newspaper is the one who should be arrested.

Re:You're Right. It's About Manning Up

[Maestro4k]

If everybody put their money and their reputation where there mouths were, civilization might just lurch forward a little bit.

And where does a newspaper gloating about making someone lose their job for posting a single vulgar word twice on their site fall in there? I expect papers to have more ethics than that in a civilized society, so I think they've set civilization back a bit with this, not forward.