Major Electronics Firms Support Ending Use of "Conflict Minerals"

tburton writes "The US House of Representatives yesterday released the Conflict Minerals Trade Act (HR 4128) to try and end the international trade of tungsten, tantalum and col-tan, the mining of which is accused of fueling violent rape and murder in eastern Congo. Since the very same minerals power the most popular consumer electronics from HP, Verizon, Nokia, RIM and Intel, the Information Technology Industry Council has quickly signed a statement of support. Advocacy groups are hopeful these commitments prove to be meaningful as consumers begin to question the end result of the supply chains powering their favorite gadget."

Comments

Hardly surprising

[jcrb]

Is this of any surprise that the companies don't really care where their materials come from as long as they are getting what they want at a price they want?

Public exposure and "naming names" is the only way to have an effect on this behavior, both so people know the effect of buying a product from certain companies as well as making the companies fearful of the bad PR that will come from using such materials

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

Gotta watch having one sided exposure. That seems to be the case in most "lets do good" campaigns. So lessee, we quit trading tungsten internationally, we have a shortage, machine tools can no longer make machines and industry crumbles here. In Africa however, since they have all the tungsten, have an industrial boom, environment and working conditions be damned. Now Africa is even worse for the people, do gooders here shot themselves and everyone else in the foot and there isn't enough tantalum to alloy into metal to make industry come back even if we could still machine products.
          Well I'm glad we could do the "right" thing. I just wanna see all the liberals come together, hold hands and sing "Kum Bah Yah" afterwards.

Re:Hardly surprising

[joaommp]

Well, they could care. I don't know about the other minerals, but at least tungesten can be mined from Portugal, where... well, let's say things don't work as they do in Congo.

Re:Hardly surprising

[commodore64_love]

>>>Well I'm glad we could do the "right" thing. I just wanna see all the liberals come together, hold hands and sing "Kum Bah Yah" afterwards.

I suspect the more radical liberals (aka Green Party) actually would like to see americans lose jobs, then stop having families due to lack of money, and gradually depopulate. In their view fewer humans == good for the environment. Radicals.

Re:Hardly surprising

[Phil-14]

Not only that; there are a lot of unexploited Tungsten sources in the United States; one supposes they could stop nickel-and-diming to death extraction industries here and we could probably produce them a lot more cheaply than the Congo; doing business in a war zone is expensive.

I also just checked Wikipedia, and I think this subject is sufficiently non-controversial/political that they will give accurate information; it looks like China produces several times the amount of Tungsten as the rest of the world _combined_.

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

Still, this is just the beginning of legislation (a.k.a. just putting the head in). Did you ever know of legislation that wasn't eventually built on? It's a flip of the coin, perhaps the right will add to it later, perhaps the left. Then more piled on that. What will it be like years from now? Will this screw up industries and jobs with left legislation? Will this ruin the environment or enslave us with right legislation?
          The Congo needs to take care of the Congo. Revolt, flee, or make peace with itself. Kinda like wild animals other peoples countries need left alone to sink or swim, evolve or die. Bad things happen everywhere, we are only selective about rendering aid when it suits our financial interests. We can't do it all for everyone else or we will spread ourselves too thin and be resented for it.
      I'm glad to hear about Portugal, but what of the world to come?
        The World is bad in places just like its deep or high in places, dangerous in places. That's just the way it is. The illusion that you can do something about it to relieve your conscience is only a tool used to manipulate you for someone elses aspirations, good or evil, we end up used, reamed suckers.

Re:Hardly surprising

[espiesp]

Except the numbers seem to indicate that families that earn more money tend to have LESS children.

When you're poor there isn't much to do but sit around the house having sex apparently.

Re:Hardly surprising

[hey!]

It's not that simple. We *aren't* going to stop using tungsten. What's going to happen is the demand curve is going to shift.

Economics is about marginal behavior. Regimes that don't treat their country as a piggy bank will get a better price for their tungsten. It will reduce the incentive to effect what amounts to a LBO of a country so that the mineral wealth can be liquidated.

Anyhow, Africa having an industrial boom? Are you serious? That would be great, but I'm not holding my breath. Africa being a threat to China or even the US industrially is a pipe dream in the short term. In the long term, it would be *great*, and I for one would be up for a chorus of "Kum Bay Yah" if that ever happened. In the long term, that means richer customers for *our* goods and services.

Personally, I don't think there is any magic wand we can wave and make everything wonderful. We had this debate for decades over South Africa, and eventually it was the strain of going over this stuff over and over and over that finally made the regime crack. It's still not paradise in South Africa, but at least what mess there is is the *people's* mess.

It's instructive to compare the success of economic sanctions in effecting regime change in South Africa (where it worked) and Cuba (where it failed). The Cuban sanctions were much harsher. It makes ironic sense, when you remember that economic behavior is driven by marginal costs and benefits.

Re:Hardly surprising

[smoker2]

You don't know what tantalum is do you ? And you definitely don't know much about tungsten. What makes you think your comment is of any use at all ?

Tantalum - Tantalum finds use in four areas: high-temperature applications, such as aircraft engines; electrical devices, such as capacitors; surgical implants and handling corrosive chemicals. It is rarely used as an alloying agent because it tends to make metals brittle.
Tungsten - There are several minerals of tungsten, the most important are scheelite and wolframite. The main mining area is China, which today accounts for more than two-thirds of the world's supply. Other places with active tungsten mines are Russia, Austria, Bolivia, Peru and Portugal.

So your rant about Africa taking over the manufacturing world looks a bit stupid.

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

Yeah, I heard Portugal produces W (tungsten) too.
Still, once you get a legislation happenin', it just turns into a module for more legislation on down the road. Could be right, could be left , either way once they put the head in, do you think thats the end? Best grease up, 'cause theres a thick veiney hairy shaft behind that head.
        You're right, nothing we can do. Doing nothing is the best in these situations. Convince politicians buying liberal votes with feelgood laws isn't a good thing now.

Re:Hardly surprising

[WormholeFiend]

not to mention Congo's entry into the space age, with the Troposphere V rocket launch

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

Lol, I think that when you put a Niton scanner on a bit of aircraft grade Titanium as I did only last week ,be it 6-4 ,10-2-3,5-5-5-3 and others you will find tantalum is indeed alloyed there and in other metals including various steels. Probably has something to do with engineering them for machining, welding or the hot part of jet engines where 6-4 is found in abundance and is welded and does get hot.
  True I've only found out Africa brings us around 1% of W (tungsten) but still our interference in world affairs is just some financial bait n switch smokescreen for the dual porpoises of buying liberal votes and/ or some other nefarious gain.
          Not sure I would trust doing business with anyone but Portugal out of that rogues gallery tho.
            Either way adding more trash legislation is like adding yet another orifice for us to be reamed with later by left or right interests.
        Now whose rant looks stupid?

Re:Hardly surprising

[Antistotle]

Is this of any surprise that the companies don't really care where their materials come from as long as they are getting what they want at a price they want?

You mean like people who chase the lowest price, no matter WHERE the product was made? How much of what you buy is made in places like China? How many of you use illegal drugs--which goes into the pocket of vicious and violent people. How much of the money you spend on gas goes to support terrorist activity and chattel slavery?

Public exposure and "naming names" is the only way to have an effect on this behavior, both so people know the effect of buying a product from certain companies as well as making the companies fearful of the bad PR that will come from using such materials

Careful with those stones pal, you may hit yourself.

Re:Hardly surprising

[hedwards]

As opposed to conservatives that bomb the crap out of oil producing nations, destabilize the middle east by refusing to stand up the the Israelis while overthrowing the country that was keeping Iran in check. At least on the liberal side of things there's some genuine effort going on to minimize the amount of the materials being used, which is far more than can be said for the group that's holding up drastic cuts on oil and other resource waste.

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

No not as opposed to conservative blah blah blah.
I find that trash legislation opens a door by both liberals and conservative to come in and rape us later on. This door was installed by liberals so when they sing, they need to be naked cause it'll be funnier.
        The whole thing is just a buncha crap sponsored by our overlords for no ones benefit but theirs. In this case it was the liberal armies marchin' to the beat. Next time it'll be conservatives, who I guarantee look just as funny naked.

Re:Hardly surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

How many of you use illegal drugs--which goes into the pocket of vicious and violent people.

How many below-average-IQ-having cops associate pot with Al Qaeda because of ridiculous statements like this?

Re:Hardly surprising

[Grishnakh]

How many of you use illegal drugs--which goes into the pocket of vicious and violent people.

The fault here lies solely with politicians, who have nonsensically made these drugs illegal. They tried banning drugs back in the 30s with Prohibition, and it didn't work. It created a huge black market, with lots of violence. Why do they keep trying to repeat history? Users are not to blame for the violence; only politicians and those who support them are.

If the government decided to ban ketchup one day, and this created a black market and violence, would you still blame ketchup consumers for the violence?

Re:Hardly surprising

[joaommp]

It's not just doing something to relieve conscience. The problem is that while there is a way to profit, there will be people fighting for it, especially in extremely underdeveloped places and where human life has a value way low.

I know people are self centered everywhere. I know people are jealous and envious and power hungry and greedy and selfish everywhere.

But in most cases, what currently makes the difference between "developing" and "developed" countries is the way people apply those... "qualities". On the developed countries, it works out mostly because people invest they money so they can get a return. On the developing countries, they just pocket it and that's it.

Re:Hardly surprising

[joaommp]

Please rephrase/explain this better.

Re:Hardly surprising

[joaommp]

Not sure I would trust doing business with anyone but Portugal out of that rogues gallery tho.

I meant this.

Re:Hardly surprising

[MindlessAutomata]

Now, what do we do about the violent murder caused by certain first-world entities over oil?

Re:Hardly surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the summary again. The companies mentioned "signed a statement of support." That is, they are in favor of the Act.

Re:Hardly surprising

[joaommp]

Because, if I understood it right, you're saying Portugal belongs to the list of the "developing" countries? "that rogues gallery"?

Do you really know anything about Portugal? Coz, either you didn't explain yourself very well, or I really didn't understand you at all.

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

We've established that any originally intended positive outcome is shortlived if at all existent, but the potential for future bad outcomes make the whole thing a questionable undertaking. So what is it besides an asprin for the soul?
I'll reiterate from other posts in this thread.
          An excuse for making legislation for further powergrabbing in the future is a bad thing.
          Helping those who don't want or appreciate it is a bad thing.
          Interference in the political affairs of those who don't want that help, only delays and contaminates any rebelling,fleeing or evolving that would've happened without meddling. A bad thing (No, in WWII our help WAS wanted, don't even bother besides we landed in the action in Hawaii anyway)
        The only percieved good to be seen in any of this is to massage the conscience of ignorant but well meaning suckers of voting age.

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

I was responding to smoker2s list of tungsten producing nations ,Russia, Austria, Bolivia, Peru and Portugal. Although Austria seems pretty benign as well as Portugal.
      Now I'm not sure why my response to him was modded to troll as it clearly outlined my qualifications for earlier statements, but dang, give a kid a beer and they just can't handle...

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

Nope, not developing, see my other explaination.

(altho after living in Boston for a time, I'm not sure you could convince the locals Portuguese aren't 3rd world. Just an observation)

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

See Bill Clinton for explanations of words like "this" and "is".

Re:Hardly surprising

[joaommp]

What's Boston got to do... got to do with it? (8)

Re:Hardly surprising

[joaommp]

unless you're talking about the same typical american lack of culture that prevents them from identifying their own country in a world map and usually identifies Portugal as being a province of Spain, then, yes, I understand what you mean. Otherwise, not really.

Re:Hardly surprising

[Gerafix]

Unless you're a Slashdotter, then there isn't much to do except sit around the basement and reload Slashdot apparently.

Re:Hardly surprising

[Wild Wizard]

Is there even a Tungsten mine in Africa?

http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/tungsten/680398.pdf

According to the US government most of it comes from China.

I can't be bothered checking the other minerals but I doubt they are any different.

Re:Hardly surprising

[symbolset]

Mining of any kind is an environmental nightmare. I imagine globalization has international companies avoiding the practice within the jurisdiction of the EPA as much as they can.

Re:Hardly surprising

[CrashNBrn]

Oh come on, that's kinda harsh. Commodore64_love usually only posts 30 or 40 times in the topics (s)he gets involved in.

Re:Hardly surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

Best grease up, 'cause theres a thick veiney hairy shaft behind that head

You're one sick fucker
But being you brought it up, this must be something that excites you
Been ass fucked lately?

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

I certainly didn't mean for you to offend yourself with that vivid picture. I just meant for the appropriate level of horror to be introduced for literary license. Beg' pardon, Father, I sometimes forget m'self, but I'm not one of your choir-boys.

        Then she stood over my shoulder and said " See, it wouldn't kill you to be polite once in a while" (politenessman throws his steel hanky).

         

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

Damn Oswald how ya been? Din't recognize you. Long time ,no see.

      Nah, when I was there, I saw a local attitude that didn't like or trust them because they kept together in a microsociety that spoke exclusively
Portuguese, schooled their own children, fished and kept to themselves. Kinda admirable from what I could see. I never heard of them bothering anyone, they seemed to hold their own with fishing,so the attitude I met kinda puzzled me.

Re:Hardly surprising

[joaommp]

Hardly resembles the stories I know and what I managed to observe for myself.

Oswald who?

I am Portuguese. I've lived away from my country for some time and while it is true that they tend to group together due to cultural similarities and language ease, it's not true that we are closed or that we keep to ourselves. I lived in Danmark for some time and while I was there, the only thing preventing us from getting along with the danes was their native xenophobia. We got along just fine with all other foreigners there and believe me, I met quite the lot.

Re:Hardly surprising

[Hurricane78]

Uuuum no. One could write your first sentence like this, and it would still be true:

Is this of any surprise that the people don’t really care where their materials come from as long as they are getting what they want at a price they want?

Companies are that way, because people are that way.
I think nearly everybody already knows exactly, that nearly everything he buys, be it clothing, toys or food, is made that cheap through exploitation. Everybody knows this deep down. All the time.
But we repress it, to justify our nice lives. (Remember that there is a evolutionary reason why we learned to act that way.)

Public exposure won’t change this. We will simply ignore it and invent excuses. That is how repression works. And it’s just as smart as you are. Because it is you.

Repression is a hard thing to come by. Normally it closes down even more, when under pressure. (It just fights back harder.)
It’s like forcing someone to love you... That won’t ever work. ^^ (There, I spoiled it for you, Fritzl! ^^)
So you do the opposite, to make it open up. Like with those finger-traps, that hold firmer if you pull harder. (Sorry. Car analogies are out today. ;)
I think you get the idea of what to do...

Re:Hardly surprising

[Hurricane78]

The thing is, that is all stems from a criminal action that is somehow “right” because it is the law-makers who do it:
Forbidding people, to do what they want, with their own bodies!

Everybody can do to himself whatever he wants. Drugs, dumb shit, suicide. It’s YOUR body! You own it. All alone. Nobody but you has any right to tell you what to do or not to do with your own body. If he does, he is the criminal. Period.
I don’t think anybody ever disagrees with that one, when it’s about his own body.

But there are some, who disagree, when it’s about the bodies of others. Because they like to control them, and have power over them.
And that is the crime. That’s why I said “period”.

I think ketchup is tomato jam, and just as anything cooked with a high sugar content, is utter trash, and no food at all.
But I would never tell you what to think of it, or if you should eat it. I can only tell you my opinion, and how I came up with it.
Who knows, some people like to destroy themselves, others think that it’s better to live 30 years of intense no-limits fun, than 100 years of boredom and sadness... everyone is different. And I do my share of bad things too, so who am I to criticize you anyway? :)

I, for one, will continue to fight for my freedom. (But with much more advanced techniques than primitive guerilla tactics or useless protests. I will walk the way of full scale social engineering (hacking human( brain)s) on those who try to dominate us, until I dominate them and they haven’t even realized it, still thinking they dominate me... if I have to... Everything else is just n00b-script-kiddie-stuff. ^^ “In $myWorld, computer hacks YOU. ^^)

Re:Hardly surprising

[epine]

Did you ever know of legislation that wasn't eventually built on?

Timely. I encountered exactly the same thought yesterday from the blowhard publicly rapping Vizio's knuckles for the grave sin of suggesting that the initial regulatory guidelines are livable. I'm on an economics binge lately. Already, the slippery slope has invaded my dreams. I'm about ready to grab a bag of pitons and head on down to the Cliffs of Insanity. Apparently, it's less hard on the nerves to take the vertical ascent than to never know when your foot might strike some gull quark and furrow six inches backwards.

The interesting thing is that I took a stroll down memory lane yesterday evening with this lecture by Kirk McKusick.

bsdtalk: bsdtalk170 - Marshall Kirk McKusick at DCBSDCon

He has some funny lines about Bill Joy, who could write unmaintainable code ten times as fast as any reasonable person. Krik keeps muttering about how, thirty years later, code they initially thought of as disposable hasn't much changed.

But I agree with your sentiment. The best way not to fall into the trap of maintaining software is never to release it in the first place.

About the Congo: there are four points you can find really fast on any Gapminder video: America, China, India, and The Congo. Good eye. Where all I could see was a human sinkhole stuck in the bottom left corner, you spotted an under-served market for self-help books written in Congolese.

Re:Hardly surprising

[couchslug]

"How many of you use illegal drugs--which goes into the pocket of vicious and violent people."

Not if you grow your own,
and do note that the War Against Some Drugs is what makes their market both profitable AND illegal, which ENSURES violence is a useful business practice. :)

Re:Hardly surprising

[Grishnakh]

Exactly. It's no different from Prohibition in the 30s: it creates a black market which makes it highly profitable to be violent. How long do we have to keep stupidly repeating the mistakes of the past?

Re:Hardly surprising

[zonker]

Most mines produce much more than you'd think. My father is an electrics foreman for what was the Phelps Dodge mining company. While visiting him in Arizona at their big copper mine he told me about how the mining companies routinely find large pockets of other precious minerals (like gold, silver, etc.) in mines. Everything they pull out of the ground they have to pay taxes for. So what they do is wait for prices to raise before pulling out mineral pockets they find. They basically mark the pockets and rebury them to retrieve later.

Re:Hardly surprising

[Ihmhi]

I'm under the poverty line and I am LOVING IT.

Re:Hardly surprising

[BitZtream]

Expensive for who? The warlords that control it and use slave labor at gun point?

You know why we don't mine our own tungsten? Cause its far cheaper to let them mine it in the Congo using slave labor and not having any concern for the environmental aftermath and ship it all the way here then it is for a company to pay US wages and pretend they are going to clean up afterwords, which they of course don't, then we end up paying for it a second time in the form of taxes.

Re:Hardly surprising

[Yvanhoe]

Even if a company cared, it would be unwise for it to switch to more expensive supplies when others wouldn't. This is why it makes sense that companies support a large ban from some sources instead of individually boycotting them. It is a way of saying "hey, capitalism says I should buy stuff from this warlord, who is the cheapest provider, but I think it would more ethical to have some regulation instead. I'll buy from a more expensive source if you make sure my competitors do as well"

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

joaoswald

        I didn't get along so well with Bostonians either. They are waaaay too tense, drink waaay too much and stole my expensive heating oil waaaay too many times.

Re:Hardly surprising

[joaommp]

now it's "joaoswald"? what the hell?

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

I believe you to be user joaoswald who prolly lost so much karma you couldn't post anymore, thus the name change. I'm still convinced from your correspondence here, with me.

Re:Hardly surprising

[joaommp]

well, you're wrong, then. I've always had this login, which is based on my name's initials, since I joined /. and never used any other login.

Not that I care about what you think, anyway. In fact, when you first mentioned that oswald guy, I thought you were trying to pick on me with some private joke or some american cultural reference.

And if you did bother checking, my karma is far from bad.

Re:Hardly surprising

[hrimhari]

Actually, he was just saying that he thinks Portugal to be the only trustworthy among the listed ore producers. He was in no way saying anything negative about Portugal.

Re:Hardly surprising

[hrimhari]

Joao is as common for Portuguese speakers as John for English speakers, so I wouldn't be too quick in considering both to be the same person.

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

Oh, wul o.k.
Seemed like their wit was the same.
I figured the first 4 letters cinched it.
My mistake.

Re:Hardly surprising

[flyneye]

My mistake, your writing style seemed the same.

Re:Hardly surprising

[joaommp]

my writing style is called "not being a native english speaker"... and oswald seems a very english/american name to me...

Just like diamonds and oil

[tedgyz]

I'm sure it be just like other conflict industries. We will care about it just long enough until our next purchase. The unwashed masses would buy products made of dead baby carcasses.

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[commodore64_love]

The masses don't care, which is why Congress passes laws to *force* us to comply with their escalated morality. You can't buy conflict diamonds/minerals if they're not in the local Walmart

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[Lumpy]

But you can. DeBeers diamonds are sold everywhere. I have yet to see anyone stop the DeBeers Diamond company from selling their dead baby diamonds.

Plus consumers do not care, hey we have been trained by the same evil company that you dont love her if you dont have 2 months salary on her finger.

Personally, I believe that only a complete Idiot would do such a thing, but I see a lot of people that follow that like lemmings.

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[commodore64_love]

In college I had that discussion with some coeds, "What do you need a diamond for? Wouldn't you rather your husband give you something useful like a car, or a house?" They just kept saying nonsense about how a diamond symbolizes love, and I countered that a cubic zirconia ring could serve as the same symbol, and same appearance, for a LOT less money. They didn't want to hear that. They want that princess fairy tale, even if it means going $50,000 in debt.

BTW I didn't know DeBeers sells conflict diamonds? I thought they were banned from doing that.

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[Sulphur]

citation needed

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[Cochonou]

It is just a beautiful product of nature. As most of the luxury items (jewels, roadsters, SLI video cards), you do not need them by definition. Fortunately, most diamonds do not cost the same as a house.

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[palmerj3]

I'm sure it be just like other conflict industries. We will care about it just long enough until our next purchase. The unwashed masses would buy products made of dead baby carcasses.

Probably not the best time to mention that I have a dead baby carcass bag full of tungsten

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[Anonymous Coward]

Women love to be covered in, and flaunt, remains of blood, suffering, of sacrifice - of abasement and submission. As pageantries of veneration.

It's something the Godess in each of them, I suppose.

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[Grishnakh]

As most of the luxury items (jewels, roadsters, SLI video cards), you do not need them by definition.

Unlike jewels, roadsters and SLI video cards actually have useful purposes: one will transport you to work or the grocery store or wherever else you need to drive, in a quick and safe manner (due to its superior handling qualities, assuming you don't abuse the power and drive recklessly), and the other will show graphics on your computer at a much higher performance than low-end graphics chipsets. Jewels have no functional purpose at all. They're just adornment. You could just as easily hang dried cat turds from your ears and get the same function.

Fortunately, most diamonds do not cost the same as a house.

Not exactly true. If they cost at least $500, then you could spend that money on a house in Detroit instead. (You didn't specify what kind of house....)

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[Grishnakh]

That's why, when you're dating and looking for your future wife, you need to find out if she's into that idiocy or not. There's plenty of smarter women out there who don't buy into the DeBeers marketing BS, and would rather either have no gems at all on their wedding ring, or some other type of gemstone which actually has value due to scarcity, unlike diamonds which only have value because DeBeers assigns them value (diamonds are extremely common in the Earth's crust, and have little real value) thanks to their monopoly position.

My wife wears a titanium, gemless wedding ring from titaniumrings.com which cost under $100. She likes that it's super lightweight and inexpensive, as she'd rather use the money for things like houses, bills, investments, etc.

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[commodore64_love]

Cubic zirconia looks just as beautiful as diamond, IMHO.

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[Toonol]

The unwashed masses would buy products made of dead baby carcasses.

I've always hated that term. People who refer to "the unwashed masses" always implicitly mean there exists the "enlighted minority", who is very superior, and always agrees with the person making the claim.

Why not just call them "peasants"? It's what you mean.

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently got engaged, and while my partner didnt care about the ethics of the diamond until I told her the full story, she now fully supports the fact that I paid 2-3x as much for a Canadian diamond. That and the quality of that diamond is way higher than 90% of the conflict diamonds we saw in stores.

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[couchslug]

"The unwashed masses would buy products made of dead baby carcasses."

I'm part of the "washed" masses and don't care who kills who in far-off barbaric lands.

Africans are making African choices to sell African mineral resources. It is not trollish to point that out. It's all them, not us. They make and perpetuate their own problems, and kill those who try to intervene (watch Black Hawk Down for what happens when do-gooders meddle where they shouldn't have bothered) because they don't care for benevolent colonialism.

I don't have a reason to care about people from primitive societies, and I do want cheap access to technology. When we accept that Africans inflict spectacular brutality on each other as a matter of course, and stop wanting them to be like us, we can advance our own interests and do business. If we don't exploit "conflict" resources someone more practical (and probably Chinese or Russian) certainly will.

Re:Just like diamonds and oil

[tedgyz]

The unwashed masses would buy products made of dead baby carcasses.

I've always hated that term. People who refer to "the unwashed masses" always implicitly mean there exists the "enlighted minority", who is very superior, and always agrees with the person making the claim.

Why not just call them "peasants"? It's what you mean.

Yeah, that's what I mean. You must not be related to any trailer trash.

Don't threaten the iPODs of the fanboy AGW crowd!

[Anonymous Coward]

The same folks who bow down to the AGW religion so they can save the planet from humanity are going to be really upset!

This will do nothing to end the "conflict".

[John Hasler]

The fighting is about politics, not minerals. This will just make everyone in the region poorer. The minerals will continue to come out albeit at a reduced rate while yet another layer of criminal politicians seize the opportunity to enrich themselves by falsifying the documents necessary to get the stuff on the legal market.

This is just more feelgood crap from the assholes in Washington.

Re:This will do nothing to end the "conflict".

[Lokinin]

The money do not go to the people, it goes to the military forces. This will control or at least decrease the violence that is supported by the money they get, since the income goes to the guerillas to support the maintenance of their weapons which will kill even more innocent people. This is a good thing. What is sick is that this decision was not made much earlier.

Re:This will do nothing to end the "conflict".

[andrew554]

The fighting is about politics, not minerals.

And what is politics about if not the distribution of power and wealth? (Remember that the minerals are making the warlords richer and funding the mayhem.)

And it won’t solve the problem completely, but it will put pressure on to start towards a solution. And this is a good thing. Especially when the alternative is to turn a blind eye and pretend nothing is happening.

An imperfect solution is better than nothing.

Re:This will do nothing to end the "conflict".

[hairyfeet]

Won't work since this is ultimately "I'm better than you and/or my God is better than yours! Jihad!" kind of deal, and deep built in hatred like that don't go away just from lack of weapons. Remember this is the same place where machete murders are quite common, and you don't get cheaper weapons that a machete.

Ultimately you can't "force" anyone to get along, love his neighbor, or anything decent like that. They have to want to stop the violence themselves. All this will do is help boost the black market for said minerals while doing jack and squat about the violence. remember these folks have been fighting for decades now. We can't change that anymore than we can get the Shia and the Sunni to "just play nice". Wish we could, but we can't, sorry.

Re:This will do nothing to end the "conflict".

[khallow]

This will control or at least decrease the violence that is supported by the money they get, since the income goes to the guerillas to support the maintenance of their weapons which will kill even more innocent people.

Why? What I'm hearing (in the discussion here) is that any such minerals are already being laundered to hide the source. My bet is that there will be zero impact in Congo. No reduction in rape and murder or military conflict. Instead, the only impact will be bureaucratic overhead for anyone doing business in the States. I oppose such frivolous regulation.

Just like conflict diamonds?

[Anonymous Coward]

This will work just as well as all of those useless "conflict diamond" resolutions that have accomplished nothing more than forcing DeBeers to launder its African blood diamonds through its "mines" in Canada.

The big miners will "discover" mines in some "friendly" country and just launder the stuff through them, just like they have done with diamonds.

*sigh*

Re:Just like conflict diamonds?

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who worked extremely close with said companies - you sir are an asshat. Canadian diamonds are laser etched and tracked from mine to end use unless industrial in use which aren't worth the hassle. I can assure you the CCRA wasn't and isn't letting large quantities of diamonds flow INTO Canada. Get some facts and stop spreading FUD.

Re:Just like conflict diamonds?

[drinkypoo]

I can assure you the CCRA wasn't and isn't letting large quantities of diamonds flow INTO Canada. Get some facts and stop spreading FUD.

Thank you, Mister A. Nonymous Coward. I'm sure that we can all rest easy now that you've made some unsubstantiated claims to refute those other unsubstantiated claims! P.S. DeBeers has a long and well-known history of doing much more nefarious things than diamond smuggling. You're going to have to offer some better evidence that they can't be doing it if you want us to believe you. Since no such evidence can be manufactured, because it is trivial to do such a thing with their resources, you might as well just STFU and go away.

Re:Just like conflict diamonds?

[Anonymous Coward]

"This will work just as well as all of those useless "conflict diamond" resolutions that have accomplished nothing more than forcing DeBeers to launder its African blood diamonds through its "mines" in Canada."

Insightful? Maybe for the near futility of trying to determine if tantalum or tungsten comes from mines in the Congo after it has been refined, but for the supposedly analogous Canadian diamond mines: citation please!

Those are awfully big holes in the ground to be putting quotes around those Canadian "mines" without some justification.

Re:Just like conflict diamonds?

[qdaku]

You make it sound like all the diamond mines in Canada are a sham. What is with the quotations? I find that to be a very odd stance as I've worked in one of those aforementioned "mines" and it's not a bunch of people blowing rainbows out of their ass waiting for the next plane full of conflict diamonds to land on the ice road.

Re:Just like conflict diamonds?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure it's trivial. It's also trivial to do a random sampling of the diamonds a mine ships and see if they do indeed derive from the same geographical location, and while I'm not sure if this is currently being routinely done, I'm sure it could be arranged if plausible grounds for suspicion is shown.
I don't see why they'd bother, it's not like diamonds are particularly hard to come by.

Re:Just like conflict diamonds?

[Wayne247]

You must be new to smuggling.

I'm not saying the poster is right on his claims, but the basic principle is that:
1. Take cheap diamonds from conflicted African country
2. Put them in a bag
3. Go to Canada
4. Open the bag in the bottom of a Canadian mine on a Monday night during the hockey game
5. Tuesday morning: Wow! We've just found an assload of diamonds! Let's go laser etch them for authenticity right away!

It's not like that's such a complicated plan. Are they doing it? I have no idea and frankly, I can't decide which sounds more plausible. a) A giant multinational acting kindly? or b) A giant multinational bending the laws for profit.

Tough choice!

Doubt it will make much difference

[Anonymous Coward]

The US might care about "Conflict Minerals" but considering most electroincs are all "Made in China", it's hardly going to stop.

Irony

[shareme]

How ironic that we than ask China to supply the same minerals who has similar Human rights abuses.. US House of Representatives ..palm to face..

Re:Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course no Chinese miners will be involved. China will buy the materials from Congo, probably directly shipping it from Congo to the USA.

Re:Irony

[Phil-14]

China already produces more Tungsten than the rest of the world put together.

If anything, this could help create one of those situations where China still has access but noone else can use the stuff to make finished goods, the way China has threateneed to do re: cornering the rare earth market after they've driven everyone else out of business.

(Or did Slashdot cover that?)

Re:Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

http://science.slashdot.org/story/09/09/08/2119201/China-Considering-Cuts-In-Rare-Earth-Metal-Exports

Re:Irony

[Grishnakh]

You've got to be kidding. China is no paragon of human rights, but they certainly don't abuse them to the extent seen in war-torn African countries, where rape and murder are common. The only thing that China does that sucks is that they practice censorship, keeping strong control over the media. They're also quick to use the death penalty, but that's not really that bad; they're not executing innocent fishermen, they're executing convicted criminals. Yes, Tianenmen was bad, but that was a long time ago. They haven't had any incidents like that in quite a while (and with today's technology, including iPods with video recording, it would be much harder to keep such a thing covered up). China's government is all about building up the country for the benefit of the people, and keeping strong control over social order. Their methods are harsh, but their intent is basically positive. They believe their methods are necessary in their culture to achieve the goals they've set. Trying to turn someplace like Iraq, for instance, into an advanced country would require similar methods, as democracy would never work there. To compare China to African warlords who are all in favor of genocide is just insulting.

Re:Irony

[jsoderba]

China will trade with anyone, no matter how evil. China is the largest investor in nations like Sudan and Burma and block most attempts to censure them in the UN and other international organizations.

Re:Irony

[Grishnakh]

Yes, that sucks, but that's not the same as committing gross human rights violations themselves.

By that logic, the US should be condemned too, as it trades freely with China, as do the Western European countries.

The US traded with Nazi Germany for some time; IBM is famous for this. The US is also happily propping up an obviously corrupt government in Afghanistan right now.

Re:Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

And of course, they are writing contracts with all those African nations to extract their resources.

Re:Irony

[Grishnakh]

Just like the USA is writing contracts with Iraq's (puppet) government to extract their oil. Pot, kettle.

Re:Irony

[thickdiick]

They're also quick to use the death penalty, but that's not really that bad; they're not executing innocent fishermen, they're executing convicted criminals.

I'm sure they got a fair trial. Even in the united states, there have been INNOCENT people put to DEATH. I don't think you fully comprehend that. INNOCENT PEOPLE killed by their OWN GOVERNMENT. You can, of course, imagine that they don't have the first-world court system we have.
Even with ad hominem being so overused, I, for one, would not mind to see your ignorant ass stand on trial in China.

Re:Irony

[Grishnakh]

You can, of course, imagine that they don't have the first-world court system we have.

They probably have a better court system than we have, as theirs is based on French/German Civil Code and not on how to make lawyers as rich as possible.

I'm sure they got a fair trial. Even in the united states, there have been INNOCENT people put to DEATH.

Yes, mistakes happen. What's your alternative? Let everyone go free and never punish criminals at all? Mistakes happen in every advanced country's legal system. Even if people aren't put to death, they're imprisoned for decades, which is just as bad, if not worse. At least a quick death is quick and painless, unlike being tortured daily for many years by sitting in a prison cell and being raped by other inmates (and the only alternative here is solitary confinement, which is proven to make people insane eventually).

I'd say a system where a few mistakes happen in the legal system is a whole lot better than some African country where thugs with guns round up everyone in a village and rape and shoot them. If you disagree, then I think you have some serious mental issues.

Just let me know...

[argStyopa]

...when you find some NONviolent rape and murder, m'kay?

Re:Just let me know...

[commodore64_love]

Easy.
Non-violent rape happens when your partner consents.
Non-violent murder happens in assisted suicide.

Re:Just let me know...

[maxwell demon]

Non-violent rape happens when your partner consents.

If the partner consents, it's not rape.

Re:Just let me know...

[Anonymous Coward]

Non-violent rape happens when your partner consents.

If the partner consents, it's not rape.

What about statutory rape, like the 18yrold with 17yrold cases?

And assisted suicide may as well be called "statutory murder", given the justification for outlawing it.

Re:Just let me know...

[pjt33]

Which definition of "violent" are you using? It seems to me that raping someone who's in a coma or killing a sleeping person by anaesthetic overdose could probably qualify as non-violent.

Re:Just let me know...

[MindlessAutomata]

"What about statutory rape, like the 18yrold with 17yrold cases?"

Do you really just think in terms of legal principles and terms and not using actual concepts? He's not talking about the legal meaning of "rape" but the more conceptual meaning of rape which he defined above.

Re:Just let me know...

[Grishnakh]

What about statutory rape, like the 18yrold with 17yrold cases?

That's not rape, that's legal bullshit.

I'll repeat it for you: if both people consent, it's NOT rape. There are no exceptions.

Re:Just let me know...

[jabithew]

Unless, of course, they're legally incapable of consent. Like, for example in cases of statutory rape.

Consent is not as simple as saying "yeah, sounds good." You have to show that the other person actually understands the course of action and all consequences that may result. I freely acknowledge that legally capable of consent and actually capable of consent do not necessarily overlap.

Vague language is not bowlderisation; this is a problem with medical ethics too. I would also argue that it applies in financial transactions too; many people who are legally competent to give consent may not actually be.

Re:Just let me know...

[Grishnakh]

The problem with this is that it's utterly ridiculous to propose that someone who is 17 years old, and will turn 18 tomorrow, is mentally incapable of giving consent in any case, yet tomorrow he/she magically will be. It's also ridiculous to hold people to different standards when their ages are nearly the same; that's why many states have revised their laws WRT statutory rape, and sex between people close in age is legal (i.e., the 18-year-old and 17-year old situation). Usually, as long as it's only a two-year difference, it's OK, though it varies state to state. This way, two teenagers having sex isn't illegal, even if one of them happens to be just over the magic 18 limit, yet a 50-year-old sicko isn't allowed to have sex with a 16-year-old that he's obviously taken advantage of.

Re:Just let me know...

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that minors cannot consent.

Re:Just let me know...

[Grishnakh]

Again, that's legal bullshit. Someone who's 17 might be a "minor" in one country, and an "adult" in another. There's also the "age of consent", which is frequently under the adult age. Many US states, and many other countries have an age of consent of 16 or less. So actually, a "minor" actually can consent, in some places.

Finally, even if the law says someone can't consent because they're 17, the fact remains that in other places they can. So how is it that an imaginary line on a map makes it rape in one place, but not-rape in another? Again, it's legal bullshit. Either it's rape or it isn't.

I realize we have to draw these lines somewhere for our legal systems, which are admittedly imperfect, but people talk about "rape", they're not talking about it in the legal sense. This isn't "Lawdot", it's a forum for geeks, not lawyers. And only a moron would equate legality with morality.

Re:Just let me know...

[Xest]

If it's assisted suicide it's not murder. Murder by definition requires malice to be involved, at best it's manslaughter.

That said, you're not wrong that there is such thing as non-violent murder. Some forms of poisoning are a good example because whilst lethal, it is not violent, violence requires force.

Similarly consensual rape is not actual rape, it's simulated rape. Rape by definition is forced, and if it's consensual it is not forced. Statutory rape is the closest you'll gate here, but statutory rape is defined by itself, so is not really the same as rape- it just uses the term rape to try and make the offence sound more brutal than it really is.

Re:Just let me know...

[alexo]

Unless, of course, they're legally incapable of consent. Like, for example in cases of statutory rape.

Then why are you entrusting people that are "legally incapable of consent" with the lives of their comrades and of other people?
(The minimum age for enlistment into the US military is 17 years with parental consent)

And before you pick on that point, there is no such thing as "parental consent" in a statutory rape situation, most likely the consenting parent will be considered an accomplice.

Hell on Earth

[CRCulver]

While not an especially great book, I got something of a picture of Eastern Congo from reading Tim Butcher's Blood River earlier this year. Though strangely little talked about, the entire region seems truly hell on earth, beyond any of the war zone or famished village you see on television. What I found interesting was that the materials from this region are transported in the backs of trucks to South Africa and only then processes, and the people mining these substances and transporting the excavated material get paid almost nothing for what is in later stages a treasure (and are frequently robbed on the way with it.)

Re:Hell on Earth

[commodore64_love]

>>>the entire region seems truly hell on earth, beyond any of the war zone or famished village you see on television

In Soviet Russia... ...nah that's not going to work. In Roman Empire..... the rowdy warring natives are subdued through force, and then the mines and minerals are claimed for the People and Senate of Rome. Eventually the warzone becomes a tamed province filled with beautiful villas. See Britannia circa 50 A.D.

Let's see - South Africa is close to Congo. Maybe they could annex it and bring "peace through superior firepower".

Oh goodie!

[Vinegar Joe]

Another excuse to jack up the prices and make everyone feel all fuzzy and warm!

Re:Oh goodie!

[FudRucker]

yup, that is what it all boils down to = kill two birds with one stone --with-higher-prices-and-warm-fuzzies

Yeah this work like the Drug War

[commodore64_love]

We all know that banning the use of marijuana, cocaine, and other naturally-occurring drugs helped de-escalate violence.

/end sarcasm

The banning of these conflict minerals simply means that you'll leave former miners without jobs, and then they'll starve, as happened when we embargoed Iraq in the 90s, and Cuba over the last several decades. I honestly don't think there's ANY workable solution to the Congo problem.

Re:Yeah this work like the Drug War

[arielCo]

I honestly don't think there's ANY workable solution to the Congo problem.

Hmm... there's a huge poor populace and a few warlords with guns, and they bid: "join us for the benefits, or languish with your folks and maybe get shot to terrorize the rest". Young fellows with no other hopes for their future easily fall for this offer, and become part of the cycle of oppression and impoverishment.

At any rate, this would be economically unsustainable (AK's and RPGs are expensive) unless the militias/armies are funded by some highly productive, low-investment activity, and digging out expensive minerals to sell them raw suits the bill just fine. This isn't at all like the blanket embargo on Cuba, which hoped to bring down the whole economy so people would revolt (har har), but a more selective approach - people are in no way benefiting from mineral extraction, since the money ends up with the arms dealers, the minerals go to our gadgets, and the warlords get the guns.

Re:Yeah this work like the Drug War

[commodore64_love]

Okay. So instead you'll create wealthy warlords that are selling the blood minerals on the black market. Problem. Not. Solved.

Re:Yeah this work like the Drug War

[arielCo]

Correct, sadly :(. That's more or less what I was thinking about when I wrote an earlier comment:

That said, it looks a lot like what they did about blood diamonds, including the same possibilities for laundering (as some AC noted above).

That's what we get from half-baked regulation, even when the direction's right. Now they'd need to clamp down on said black market, starting with hypocritic companies who do half-hearted or bogus checks on their suppliers. This is where we have a better chance than with drugs - at some point, the players are few and very visible.

Ideally these people should turn against these thugs who give them *nothing* in return for their minerals. In practice, they're not going to risk their lives (no matter how miserable they are) by uprising with machetes against their long guns. Any effective help from outside requires weakening the bad guys, and I can't think of anything besides honest, real monitoring of the market they thrive on. If we can't / won't actually crack down on complicit manufacturers, name-and-shame them and let the consumer with a conscience decide.

You can start laughing at my innocence now.

Re:Yeah this work like the Drug War

[Grishnakh]

No why not supply the poor populace with their own guns, so they can rise up against the warlords? AKs aren't expensive to us, and could be cheaply mass-produced for very little. I say drop some pallets full of guns and ammo into these places, along with a few advisors to train and advise them, and then these poor, oppressed people will be able to take care of themselves.

Re:Yeah this work like the Drug War

[arielCo]

I hope that was a sarcastic reference to Afghanistan.

Re:Yeah this work like the Drug War

[Grishnakh]

No, actually it wasn't. As I said before, I propose arming and training the poor people, the fishers, farmers, villagers, etc., not more warlords.

The problem with US involvement in anything like this is that, instead of trying to help out the regular people who really need it, they look for whatever violent assholes happen to oppose the violent assholes currently in power. We think that by allying ourselves with a different group of tyrants, that we can get them into power (which actually does work many times), and then somehow these tyrants will feel loyalty to us (yeah right) and then stop being tyrants. It's insane.

Propping up a different group of tyrants isn't the answer. The answer is to empower the regular people, so that they aren't victims to either set of tyrants. But we don't want to do that, because then we wouldn't have any control over the situation. We'd rather have a tyrant in power (like the Shah in Iran, whom we installed after overthrowing a democratically elected government there) that we can use as a puppet, instead of just allowing the majority of people in a region to govern themselves.

Re:Yeah this work like the Drug War

[Anonymous Coward]

The banning of these conflict minerals simply means that you'll leave former miners without jobs, and then they'll starve, as happened when we embargoed Iraq in the 90s, and Cuba over the last several decades.

You say that as if you think these miners go in and apply for jobs at their local mine. These are people enslaved by gangs of heavily armed thugs working for the local warlord/politician. Thinking of this in terms of people losing their jobs because our governments don't like the way their governments treat their neighbours is missing the point entirely.

Re:Yeah this work like the Drug War

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a difficult path, meddling in another country's affairs. You can't "help the people that need help" unless you invade the place yourself. Your 'arm and train the poor people' idea is functionally the same as backing an existing faction, since you can't oversee what they do unless you're there yourself. You have to work through the natives either way, and even in the best of cases the natives are fundamentally not under much of your supervision and control.

Basically, then, without the will or international go-ahead to invade, you have to continually work with whatever material is already available. This boils down to picking one of the less-bad factions, backing them enough to win, *and then working with them afterwards towards the reforms you wanted in the first place*. You are forced to discard the unworkable factions from consideration: you can't enact reforms if the place is occupied by soviet or chinese troops "invited in" by the communist victors, and you can't enact reform if the place is taken over by hostile religious militants who turn the place vehemently isolationist.

Often it's on either circumstance or follow-through that we fail; a moderate workable faction goes tyrant later (like the Shah), or we lack the will to provide followup mentoring on multi-decade timescales (Afghanistan comes to mind). But tyranny has never been the goal; it's been the failure mode of a gamble at picking the least-bad workable faction, in a situation where if we do nothing at all then tyranny is the default outcome anyway.

Re:Yeah this work like the Drug War

[Grishnakh]

It's a difficult path, meddling in another country's affairs.

Exactly right, which is why it should almost never be done. It's generally a lose-lose proposition. Other than Germany and Japan, I can't think of ANY case in which US intervention was successful, and those cases were unique since 1) the US actually went directly to war with both of them, not using them as a place for a proxy war, and 2) they were both highly industrialized countries, not backwards tribal nations like the ones we're involved with now.

Your 'arm and train the poor people' idea is functionally the same as backing an existing faction, since you can't oversee what they do unless you're there yourself.

I disagree. The problem is that when we get involved, we look for an existing faction. A faction is a group of people who have already taken up arms and are attempting to gain control; i.e., they're warlords. We shouldn't be helping any warlords. We should only be helping people who can't protect themselves.

Basically, if you arm and train everyone, then it'll be impossible for any warlords to have any power, because every time they drive into some village to rape and murder, they'll be shot at by all the villagers. A gun is called the "equalizer" for a good reason: it allows people to defend themselves against others who are physically much stronger, and it allows small numbers of people to defend themselves against large numbers of people (even if the larger force wins, it'll come at a great cost).

A Japanese General noted during WWII that invading the mainland USA would be folly, since "there is a rifle behind every blade of grass", as so many Americans were armed and proficient with firearms back then. It's the same reason Hitler didn't invade Switzerland; everyone there is armed. So, if you want to bring peace to a war-torn country, the only workable way I see is to arm everyone. There may be some violence, but pretty quickly people will figure out they can't run around attacking each other without seriously risking their lives.

But tyranny has never been the goal; it's been the failure mode of a gamble at picking the least-bad workable faction, in a situation where if we do nothing at all then tyranny is the default outcome anyway.

And when has tyranny EVER not been the outcome from US meddling? That's the whole problem when you choose sides, and try to choose leadership for another group of people. The best way is to provide everyone the tools they need for their self-defense, and then allow them to settle their own problems. The problem is that we don't want to do that, because we want to maintain control, usually because that country has some resource (o-i-l) that we want.

Flintstones!

[Anonymous Coward]

I look forward to my next computer made completely out of local-quarried granite and powered by a small rodent in a wheel.

Who cares about the Congo?

[tjstork]

Well, once again the Democrats shoot the American economy in the foot.

We may not buy the stuff, but the Chinese will, or some other country, so there will be another set of expertise that we will lose, and they will gain.

To save a region, they destroyed their own country.

Re:Who cares about the Congo?

[XPeter]

A conservative on Slashdot...there's a first time for everything, I suppose.

Re:Who cares about the Congo?

[commodore64_love]

Hello! (waves hand). There are lots of conservatives, libertarians, and other small-government-loving people on Slashdot.

"small government is beautiful"

Re:Who cares about the Congo?

[Lumpy]

We may not buy the stuff, but the Chinese will,

which means we will through a third party.... China!

Re:Who cares about the Congo?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new here. Pretty much any story on slashdot with a political angle on it will have a large thread that turns into a libertarian vs liberal argument. There don't seem to be too many standard conservatives (those who talk about small government while at the same time making it bigger in order to fight wars and stop people taking drugs) on here though.

Me? I'm on the libertarian side.

Re:Who cares about the Congo?

[MattGWU]

And radical conservatives want their followers to have as many children as possible (Ex: The Quiverfull movement) to be a Christian army for Jesus with the stated goal of taking over the country politically in a couple generations. This is somehow better? ....Incidentally though, I'm with you on 'if we don't get the metals, China will.' That doesn't do us any good at all.

Re:Who cares about the Congo?

[Anonymous Coward]

"small corporation is beautiful"

Re:Who cares about the Congo?

[tjstork]

Well every political side has its own activists. Let's face it, conservatives and liberals have their fair share of alinsky radicals in both sides.

Re:Who cares about the Congo?

[EQ]

More than you may think. Used to be a lot of techno-libertarians around before these little baby statists swarmed in.

Re:Who cares about the Congo?

[flyneye]

O.K. I'm not convulsed with laughter, so I can type now.
First the phrase "radical conservatives" painted a picture of the opposite of rogues like the Green Party, Zero Pop control, and the freaks who put animal , plant and bug interests ahead of our own. I see a vision of radical rightists in a boat herding dolphins to tuna nets singing "onward christian soldiers". I see consecrated orgies in church basement rec centers," Bobby go help Widdow Jones and your cousin concieve, they been preparin' the luncheon and missed out"....Dammit I'm gigglin again. I doubt the quiverfull movement to be any more dangerous than Mormons. However it is probably pretty irritating to Atheists, who in turn are just as irritating as anyone mentioned in this post.
        Don't worry about any christian armies marchin' down your street anytime soon. I don't worry about ATWA getting anywhere in life ( http://www.atwa.be/one.html ) or scientology recovering any respect or ground in this eon. You really gotta be or at least be able to sustain some kinda righteousness to gain ground anywhere.
        I kinda like to meet cultists and freaks of all kinds.Call it a hobby. It is a good exercise in understanding backgrounds and motives of the waaaay out among us and they do get less threatening when you actually reach out and touch them.
I will say one thing, the intensely Christian among us have delicious potluck dinners and will feed you till you pop after entertaining you with an extremely visual performance behind the pulpit. Can't say I'd like to eat with Vegan Democrats for Nader. However if you hear about any church sponsored breeding parties, I'd be glad to bring a quiverfull of my seed, hell I'll even sing hymns.
Sumpin' to think about.

         

Re:Who cares about the Congo?

[tjstork]

There don't seem to be too many standard conservatives (those who talk about small government while at the same time making it bigger in order to fight wars and stop people taking drugs)

There were 9 years ago, but we learned from our mistakes.

Re:Who cares about the Congo?

[dgatwood]

Those aren't true conservatives. They're neocons. There's a difference. :-)

A true conservative talks about a smaller government and means it.

Re:Who cares about the Congo?

[Anonymous Coward]

They t'k'r jobs!

No Surprise and years to late !

[Rotorua]

This is so DATED.... I work for a component manufacturer and NOBODY I repeat NOBODY has used anything from Congo for YEARS..... All the big boys demand that we prove the source of our Col-tan and provide a certified route to source Again this is the same as the Blood diamonds ... years to late !!! ----

Re:No Surprise and years to late !

[Anonymous Coward]

According to Wikipedia: "the Democratic Republic of the Congo produces a little less than 1% of the world's tantalum (in 2006)".
Which makes this trade act look like a cover-up of where the other 99% is coming from.

Re:No Surprise and years to late !

[BitZtream]

Right, and no one ships their 'environmentally friendly disposed electronics' to china to sit in an open land fill.

You can say it all day long, and I still won't believe it. Certifications can be faked fairly easy.

You would have to name everybody

[okoskimi]

If you read the articles (yes, I know... this is Slashdot) you will realize it is not a problem with companies, but with computers and cell phones in general requiring the conflict materials. For some reason, the summary included a few random names and left out others, e.g. Apple most certainly belongs in the list as it produces both computers and cell phones.

What you can do, is name the companies who do try to behave responsibly and control where their raw materials come from. Quoting one of the referenced articles: "Cell phone manufacturers like Samsung, Motorola, Apple and Nokia have long had official policies against the use of conflict minerals in their products."

Re:You would have to name everybody

[TheGavster]

Rather than blaming a technology for requiring a particular mineral, or an industry for producing such products, does it not make more sense to blame the people killing and repressing populations over the minerals for any bloodshed? I'm sure that the assholes running their little war bands in the Congo will find something else to murder and repress over, just as tribal kingdoms in the region have for much of history.

Fungible Resources

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm, does anyone in Congress know what a fungible resource is?

Basically, there's no way to know if the tungsten in your product (or even in your supply chain) came from the Eastern Congo, or pretty much anywhere else.

If the price for "tungsten" goes up appreciably, then Eastern Congo "tungsten" will just show up indirectly from other sources.

Re:Fungible Resources

[commodore64_love]

No.

Congress are the same people who said in 2005, "You're not going to see a housing collapse - that you see when people talk about a bubble." They think they know everything, but in reality they know little about the real world. (Please note I'm not picking on any person or group - they are ALL this clueless.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW5qKYfqALE

Re:Fungible Resources

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't you compare the impurities, or even the isotopic composition of the tungsten itself? These should vary from one region to another.

Re:Fungible Resources

[Anonymous Coward]

Isotope ratios - also known as 'signatures'. Spectroscopy. And its sisters.

Or, proactively, irradiate the mining region with a 'non-lethal' tagging dose.

Put all mining operation under U.N. / African Union administration control and supervision - with local oversight and moderation. Make use of the profits to improve education, health / sanitation, smalll-scale farming and industry.

Not a solution, but a relative improvement, for a while. Specially if 10 or 20 years are spent really hammering into people's brains that hating each other is wrong and stupid. And counterproductive.

And t-shirts and jeans and shoes

[Colin Smith]

I don't see the problem. Humans have been preying on other humans since the first family split in two. You can get on as high a horse as you like, but all you're doing is adding hypocrisy and sanctimony to your list of character flaws.
 

Re:And t-shirts and jeans and shoes

[Sulphur]

The Obamas ?

Re:And t-shirts and jeans and shoes

[tedgyz]

I don't see the problem. Humans have been preying on other humans since the first family split in two. You can get on as high a horse as you like, but all you're doing is adding hypocrisy and sanctimony to your list of character flaws.

Looks like you are on the high horse. I'm glad you know me so well to build my list of flaws. Thanks.

Cultured diamonds

[tepples]

Again this is the same as the Blood diamonds ... years to late !!! ----

But because diamond is a crystal of one of the most common elements on earth, at least there's an alternate source for diamond: fabrication through a BARS press or through chemical vapor deposition. Tungsten and the like still have to be mined.

The Belgian Solution

[Vinegar Joe]

I honestly don't think there's ANY workable solution to the Congo problem.

"Exterminate all the brutes!" - Kurtz

Re:The Belgian Solution

[commodore64_love]

"How's that workin' for ya?" - Dr Phil

"The horror. The horror."

col-tan

[SpinyNorman]

Had to look that one up...

It's an abbreviation ("coltan", actually) for columbite-tantalite, the primary ore from which niobium (formerly columbium) and tantalum are refined.

The summary should have stuck to elements rather than mixing elements and ores. I'm sure most of have head or niobium and tantalum, but "col-tan" ???

They might as well rename it

[zogger]

To the "Turn over to the Chinese all the minerals in Africa" act. They'll take them, and they do not care one bit about which local regime is in charge today. They go out of their way all the time to state they have no desire to interfere in local politics, they just want the business/raw materials.

Oh, by the way, how about they ban petroleum products, fuels and plastics? Or do they want to claim petroleum doesn't come in huge part from regimes where human rights are routinely abused, where murders rapes torture and so on are common?

Re:They might as well rename it

[Anonymous Coward]

"Or do they want to claim petroleum doesn't come in huge part from regimes where human rights are routinely abused, where murders rapes torture and so on are common?"

Why would you say such mean things about your Canadian neighbors (which, by the way, supply more oil and gas to the U.S. than Saudi Arabia or any other country)? :-)

If you want to fix the Congo...

[tjstork]

The answer is to have more money, not less. If you wanted to ensure that there were humanitarian practices in the use of these materials, the west should tax these materials on import, and the money to actually help the families that live there through the construction of infrastructure.

Re:If you want to fix the Congo...

[WindBourne]

Only if it involves helping these ppl create their own businesses. For far far too long, we simply give goods, foods, support as an act of charity. What these ppl need are businesses to help them thrive. It would also provide incentives for these soldier to put down their guns.

Re:If you want to fix the Congo...

[tjstork]

Agreed, 100%.. part of their education should be in conservative values about ownership and civic responsibility. It is very likely that you need to teach people to be conservatives to get them to be able to build things, but then, if you so choose, give them liberal spices after the fact.

Re:If you want to fix the Congo...

[WindBourne]

Being somewhat serious now, I do wish that the pubs would go back to what they were before reagan. There WAS concerned about debt, protected the little guy, while not interfering. I mean it was the republicans that gave us EPA.

Personally, I have been a Libertarian for decades, but I see issues all the time. In particular, under a Libertarian dominated system, we would continue to allow China to do what they are doing, even though it is killing the west (though to be fair, under Libertarian, we could sue the gov and possibly win on this).

Nothing will change

[ickleberry]

Except the smaller electronics firms will be able to get much cheaper 'conflict minerals'. Its good news for all really, smaller companies will be able to make cheaper stuff while the large ones get to tell everyone how ethical they are being.

China

[WindBourne]

China will simply be the ones to go in there and own it. ANd they will pay far less if EU and America pull out. So now, it will be even harsher, at least for a time, because there is less money in the region.

thats because you haven't tried very hard

[Anonymous Coward]

i think if you spent more time reading books and less time on playing space marine, you might understand things a little better.

Corporate Socialism!

[AlexLibman]

Big Business loves government regulation, because they get to control it and raise the barrier-to-entry for smaller / future competition.

Megacorps and demagogue politicians aside, regulation hurts everyone else, especially the so-called "sweatshop victims" who must now resort to even worse means of survival (if any).

I have

[WindBourne]

and I am not a geologist. These are rare earth minerals. The hard thing is that if you do some research about China and Rare earth, you will find that they posses the larges known ores of them. And just this fall, they banned most of them them, and then put limits on others (those that had mines outside of China rich with them). Why you ask? To limit their use to manufacturing in China ONLY. And where are these used at? High-end electrons (of which ALL electronics are heading), the high-end motors that will be needed for electric cars, wind generators, new more efficient generators for steam generators, etc, etc, etc.

Basically, we have China squeezing the west on one side, and dems squeezing on the other. Worse, I bet that EU will do the same. And does this help those in the middle? I seriously doubt it.

Tin

[OldCrasher]

They want to ban tin. Tin goes in solder. Solder holds chips to circuit boards. Circuit boards have via's lined in tin to allow for complex circuit design. Ban tin and you make most of our tech industry dead overnight. Now I know there are people that want to return our world to the caves, and this may be a good step in that direction. But do all /. readers really want themselves to be reduced to sending their comments in on Slates?

Re:Tin

[Grishnakh]

Where does it say they want to ban tin? Tin is an extremely common metal, mined from many places. According to this, most tin now is imported from China, Indonesia, and Peru. Also, a lot comes from recycling.

It would be basically impossible to sustain modern society without tin, especially because of its use in solder. One thing that'd help, though, would be to switch back to leaded solder, which uses much less tin than the new lead-free varieties.

Re:Tin

[OldCrasher]

In one of the referred articles on the Congo, it mentions that cassiterite is one of the ores that is being faught over. Cassiterite is the primary source of tin. Congo is one of the primary sources of cassiterite.

Re:Tin

[Grishnakh]

That may be, but according to the sources I pointed to, Congo isn't even recognized as a source of tin. The vast majority of reserves are in China, with lots more in Indonesia, Malaysia, Peru, etc. No one's going to ban tin use because of the Congo.

Western hypocrisy

[Anonymous Coward]

I urge everyone who wants to know what's really happening in Africa to read some articles from Keith Harmon Snow. For example, AMERICA’S WAR IN CENTRAL AFRICA - The Pentagon’s Proxy War in the Eastern Congo.

Verizon

[Anonymous Coward]

Verizon make electronics now?

Yeah, thank god for the republicans

[WindBourne]

WHy without such wonderful ppl like reagan and W, America would not be the wonderful nation that it is. Heck, those two brought all business to Europe, Canada, Australi, China, etc. Prior to that, those places were just ran by tribal warfare. ANd they removed the debt that the dems had brought to America. Even more so, the stopped those Dem and liberal invasions and occupations of other nations, even the small ones. Yes, we really need to push such wonderful ideas like those from reagan and W.

how 'bout RTFA?

[arielCo]

It's not at all about banning coltan, tungsten or tin.

Quoth the corporate spinsters:

The EICC and GeSI launched an effort in early 2009 to enhance transparency in the minerals supply chain and to better determine how these minerals flow from mines to final manufacturing. This workgroup has engaged companies from all levels of the tantalum mining and processing industry to drive toward a solution that promotes the responsible sourcing of tantalum.

Quoth the congress guy:

It commissions a map that will overlay areas of conflict with areas rich in mineral resources in the DRC, so refiners will know which mines are likely to fund conflict. The bill also requires importers of potential conflict goods to certify whether or not their imports contain conflict minerals and the United States Trade Representative (USTR) will report to Congress and the public which companies are importing goods containing conflict minerals.

That said, it looks a lot like what they did about blood diamonds, including the same possibilities for laundering (as some AC noted above).

Hate to be a grammar nazi..

[log0n]

Seriously people, learn your grammatically-correct English!

"... to try and end ..." should be "... to try to end ...". Try is the verb, 'try to' is the proper way of using said verb in a sentence. Otherwise, you're combining the two on the same subject.

I'm going to try international trade of tungsten and end the international trade of tungsten.
OR
I'm going to try to end the international trade of tungsten.

Re:Hate to be a grammar nazi..

[thickdiick]

Agreed. Poor grammar that makes a statement INCOMPREHENSIBLE is a sign of stupidity. You're 100% on-target with that one.

But my computer requires blood sacrifices

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I'll have to put a drop of human blood on every motherboard. There is a major corporate wide upgrade planned for next year. I don't have enough blood to spare for so many systems. I think I might have to kill a drifter.

Come on, man...

[Anonymous Coward]

People come together to mine these minerals. They have jobs (is this not a good thing?). Said people then murder and/or rape other said people.who are also mining. Why do we blame the companies who use these minerals? Using this type kind of logic, should I, a Packer fan, no longer eat wild rice from Minnesota now that Brett Farve is a Viking?

I'm just saying....

how about conflict petroleum

[Anonymous Coward]

I refuse to fill up at any gas station unless I can check their paper trail without petroleum from Iraq or the middle east.

Re:Har-har-har!

[conureman]

OMG ROFLMAO I love how the technicians used their fingers to shove loose wires under the nose cone. Was anyone killed?

tantalum caps

[badhack]

I wonder what we will use in place of tantalum caps. Electrolytics don't have the lifespan and most other materials don't have a high enough CV.

Next up

[Jiro]

The "Conflict Petroleum Trade Act". Prohibits us from buying oil from countries with repeated human rights violations. Saudi Arabia should really like this one. It'll never happen, of course.

Mine the Stars

[Anonymous Coward]

Get it from asteroids, already!

Support needed development of the space tech and capability. Nobody gets killed but some very few willing volunteers. And a lot of fellow nerds get to move out of TMB (mom's basements) and into spacious mining capsules for those relaxing and edifying 2 or 3 year streches. As an added bonus, there will probably be no noticeable change in their physical condition before and after that time in space. ;p

Plus, its 'Totally' eco-friendly - unless you nudge something where it shouldn't, of course. ;)

And, while they're at it, they could fetch enough nickel / lithium / whatever to expedite a sustainable electrical civilization.

und so wieder...

Rape?

[SanityInAnarchy]

I'm sure I'm just a clueless American, ignorant of world affairs, so maybe someone better informed can tell me...

But how does this have anything at all to do with rape? The words "rape", "sex", "fuck", "sodomize", etc, don't appear at all in TFA. It seems to be about violence, not rape.

It's all signaling

[DavidShor]

The fact that it costs so much is the point. Gift exchange serves a valuable purpose in ensuring cooperation, because it serves to make declarations of intention credible.

In this case, consider a guy who wants to tell his girlfriend "I love you and do not plan to leave you or be unfaithful". That's easy for a guy to say, and it often provides a lot of benefits if believed, so it can be rational for a guy to say this whether it's rational or not. And the girl, knowing this, might not have reason to trust him. This isn't good for either party. So instead, the guy spends a huge sum of money on a worthless trinket and gives it to her. If he truly planned to leave, then he wouldn't have spent the huge amount of money, and so suddenly, the girl(or historically, the girl's family) has reason to trust him. Win/win for both sides.

This is why pretty much every culture in history has had some form of "spend huge sums of money on Marriage traditions". In our case, we spend tons of money on diamond rings and expensive weddings.

More deeply, this is what's going on subconsciously whenever friends exchange gifts with each other. Think of it as the way society evolves to get around the prisoner's dilemma.

Re:It's all signaling

[commodore64_love]

>>>The fact that it costs so much is the point. Gift exchange serves a valuable purpose in ensuring cooperation, because it serves to make declarations of intention credible.

(1) A new car or a new house is pretty damn expensive, and shows the guy is in it for the long haul. I think it would be an acceptable gift for the wife rather than the diamond.

(2) On the other hand, 50% of marriages end in divorce. Not exactly a wise investment to buy a $10,000 diamond ring when there's a 1 out of 2 chance you'll lose that investment. (The woman of course gets to keep it. Sucks for the guy.)

Re:It's all signaling

[tedgyz]

The wedding industry is absurdly overpriced. They play off emotions and traditions to guilt people into blowing huge amounts of money.

I just completed my wedding this weekend (2nd time around). We wanted to keep it simple and low cost. It's hard though - you have to avoid using the word "wedding". For example, we wanted to order flowers at the local shop. For a simple bride's bouquet they wanted $60. I was quite confused because I had bought many larger bouquets for her in the past and they never cost that much. It's the wedding tax. Suffice to say they did not get our business. Another place wanted $12 for a boutineer. What? $12 for a carnation with a pin through it? Crazy!

Very Bad for Electronic Industry

[physburn]

Both the elements Tungsten and Tantulum are off extreme stategic importances to the electronics industry. Tungsten for good old fashioned incandestant light bulbs. Tantulum for electrolytic capacitors. There isn't a room or modern consumer item that doesn't use one all the other, so banning either item, would have drastic effects on modern life. Off course, there are some modern replacements for either element for instance LED bulbs and carbon based, supercapacitors.

---

Electronics Industrys Feed @ Feed Distiller

Bzzt, wrong.

[ciroknight]

There is a way to know explicitly where the minerals came from. The unfortunate part is, it's very expensive and revealing the fact that you know where the minerals came from is only more likely to cause you trouble, rather than solving a problem.

Scientists figured out years ago that different parts of the earth have different concentrations of radioisotopes and impurities. Those are more than enough to geolocate the source of any number of mineral supplies. It's virtually the same way scientists can know if a sample of rock is really a meteorite or if a sample of drugs came from someone's backyard methcook or some superlab in Mexico. Measuring the amount of tantalum-180 vs -181 will tell you whether or not it came from Africa or China, and as any nuclear engineer will tell you, separating two isotopes that close in weight is extremely difficult, so it's hard to disguise.

Still, stopping the world so you can test someone's ore isn't really going to solve any problems. You might stop buying from one company because of it, but since every other company will still use the conflict ore, and the ones that don't will charge more, simple economics will force this stuff to be used as long as it is created. Not buying it simply isn't a realistic option; even if we started mining the minerals that we could (like tungsten) here in the States, it'd still cost a fortune more than importing it (at least in the beginning), which is enough to keep people from doing it here.

Re:Har-har-har!

[WormholeFiend]

At the end of the report, the reporter said they had yet to receive news of the rat they put on board as the first Congolese "being" sent to space

The Gun Control Zealots...

[rally2xs]

seem to have branched out into other areas, and are now blaming other inanimate objects, this time minerals, for human failings.

Monsters!

[zogger]

Look at all those cute little innocent poutes they slaughter every year with their poute sticks (oh ya, they claim this is a sport) for their national dish!

The US will keep buy, here is why...

[Anonymous Coward]

The US Government will keep buying tungsten from any source. The reason is that it can't get enough at the price they need it to be at. Tungsten is a critical component in most large caliber bullets fired from tanks, planes and other vehicles. It is also a critical component in armor used by both the Bradley fighting vehicle and the Abrams tank.

The US Government is the biggest purchaser in North America if not MOST of the world, (by land mass). When one of the top 5 purchasers in the world is buying something in a manner in which it can't get enough of then no industry signing of paper will do anything to curb the flow of that material. All they have done is make the situation worst for those people because organized crime is the only method for extracting and distributing it now.

Swings and roundabouts

[cavebison]

I read this article just after reading the one about all 3 major search engines filtering results at China's request. Some companies attempt to be responsible for their actions and associations (be it with climate change, animal testing, what-have-you) while others clearly do immoral things over and over again, often at the expense of real people.

Individuals tend to have a moral compass built in, which is encouraged by direct consequences for immoral action. If I steal from someone I know, there will be pain all around. Companies are often divorced from direct consequences of their behaviour - either the consumer doesn't know/care, or there's no choice of other products. In that sense, the consumer is also divorced from consequences of their buying habits, which is of course good for those companies.

Given this serious separation of action and consequence, how do we ensure companies start to behave better into the future, or are we doomed to this continued good-news/bad-news ping pong, with no clear idea if things are generally getting better or worse?

Why should we care?

[master_p]

Africans are in tribal wars for centuries, while the rest of the world has progressed far enough to be able to exchange ideas worldwide by the speed of light. I do not see why should we care about their problems, since they clearly do not.

OT: about moderation

[hrimhari]

I'd have modded it Flamebait, not Troll, for two reasons:

Now whose rant looks stupid?

1. You seemed to be the only one ranting.
2. Once your point about Africa having an industrial boom and worsening the problem showed to be moot, you seemed to adopt the "let's do nothing". This allied with (1) gave me the impression that you just wanted to be declared winner.

Re:OT: about moderation

[flyneye]

(basking in my oscar moment)
thx for noticing. You're a bit late, guess you'll have to gfy.

Coltan

[HTH NE1]

When you block the international trade of coltan, only Skynet will be able to import coltan.