Facebook Photos Lead To Cancellation of Quebec Woman's Insurance

No. 24601 writes "A Quebec woman on long-term sick leave, due to a diagnosis of depression, lost her health benefits after her insurance provider found photos of her on Facebook smiling and looking cheerful at parties and out on the beach. Besides all the obvious questions, how did the insurance company access her locked Facebook profile?"

Comments

Is she really sure it was locked?

[Mr. Freeman]

First question, is she sure it was actually locked down? Some of those settings sound like nonsense to the non-technical.
Second, is she the one that posted the photos? If someone else posted photos of her on a public page, anyone can see them.

Re:Is she really sure it was locked?

[sopssa]

Second, is she the one that posted the photos? If someone else posted photos of her on a public page, anyone can see them.

Exactly, and because of tag-a-person-in-photo feature it's quite easy to find the photos too.

She said her insurance agent described several pictures Blanchard posted on the popular social networking site, including ones showing her having a good time at a Chippendales bar show, at her birthday party and on a sun holiday — evidence that she is no longer depressed, Manulife said.

This is evidence that she is no longer depressed? Depression is a lot deeper thing than that. Obviously you have happy moments and can smile on birthday party or on holiday. But in no way that mean that you really feel good and like that always. And I think you're supposed to try to have fun, so that said depression would actually go away.

"We can't ignore it, wherever the source of the information is," she said. "We can't ignore it."

Like a depressed person wants to always show everyone that she is depressed? Facebook isn't a complete picture in to your life. It is what the person posts there, and usually people like to make themself look good and not like a depressed wreck.

Re:Is she really sure it was locked?

[epiphani]

Like a depressed person wants to always show everyone that she is depressed? Facebook isn't a complete picture in to your life. It is what the person posts there, and usually people like to make themself look good and not like a depressed wreck.

My best friend and my brother have both had severe depression problems. It is quite possible to be out and functioning at moderate levels of depression - talking, smiling, looking like you're enjoying yourself. I think one described it something like this:

I was standing there having a conversation, smiling and laughing, while thinking about different ways I could kill myself to get out of that situation.

So you know what, fuck you Manulife. You are in no situation to reverse a doctors' diagnosis based on some pictures you found on the internet.

Re:Is she really sure it was locked?

[elecmahm]

I don't have severe depression, but that old black beast does occasionally roll around on me. At my worst time I would appear completely normal, and occasionally even have brief periods where I could smile and laugh. It just doesn't last though, when you're depressed. Shame on the insurance company, though. I think the most appropriate recourse would be to find the executives names on the annual report, look them up, and start rooting through their trash, and post anything embarassing found in a public place. Maybe even follow them around with a camera and record every little thing they do. If they want to invade privacy that much, then fair's fair.

Re:Is she really sure it was locked?

[Alef]

Exactly. The only effect this is going to have is that depressed people stay at home, never go to parties or beaches and make sure never to smile where they could be seen (in Sweden we have even had cases were insurance companies even hired private investigators hiding in the bushes with cameras). How is that for being counter-productive? One would think the insurance company would be interested in the person recovering. Isn't it a good thing she gets out in positive environments and tries to enjoy herself?

Re:Is she really sure it was locked?

[hkmarks]

Absolutely. If she's depressed, going to parties and taking a holiday is only going to get her healthy faster. Staying home and moping will only make her depression worse. Antidepressants and having fun are roughly equally effective, and work far better together.

(Not that plenty of people don't scam the system.)

Re:Is she really sure it was locked?

[Clover_Kicker]

One would think the insurance company would be interested in the person recovering.

The insurance company doesn't care if you live or die, so long as they don't have to pay out.

Re:Is she really sure it was locked?

[m.ducharme]

Insurance companies hiring private investigators to spy on their clients is fairly common in Canada, where the payout looks like it's going to be long-term or the client seems a little suspicious. It's kind of a "dirty tricks" thing to do, but it's not entirely unjustified, depending on the illness, and the circumstances. For example, since we brought in contingency fee arrangements, auto insurance lawsuits have increased dramatically, and claims for things like chronic pain syndromes and whiplash are skyrocketing. One reason Insurance companies pay for surveillance (and they do pay, it's not cheap) is that they often do catch people faking illness or injury.

The irony is, of course, that depression is not one of the illnesses that people are likely to fake. There's still a strong stigma around mental illness here in Canada (and the US as I'm sure you can tell from the comments here) and people will go out of their way to avoid being diagnosed with depression or any other mental illness. To further compound the irony, the "chronic pain syndromes"* that so many people suffer from are quite often symptoms of depression. But the sufferer refuses to acknowledge even being depressed, so the doctors are limited to treating the symptoms (and eventually enabling an oxycontin habit).

My experience with Insurance companies has been that most of them will pay out on medically supported depression claims for a certain amount of time (probably up to 2 years) and after that time they'll start snooping on the client; the rationale being that after two years, the client should have found a treatment that works.

Re:Is she really sure it was locked?

[sjames]

But I do not agree with a layman overturning an expert opinon.

IMHO, that sort of thing by insurance companies needs to be legally treated for exactly what it is, practicing medicine without a license. That is, a felony. In the rare instance that an insurance adjuster happens to also be a licensed M.D. unless they actually SEE the patient in person first it is malpractice and grounds for losing that license. Just like the "pain docs" that prescribe strong opiates sight unseen for the scam pharmacies.

She was attempting to follow her doctor's orders and may even have been making progress. Then the insurance company did it's very best to send her back to square 1 or worse.

Re:Is she really sure it was locked?

[m.ducharme]

IANAL, but I did work as a clerk in a law firm that defended insurance companies, and I am a law student. Investigators may take surveillance of claimants from off the claimant's property. They may not pass on to the claimant's property, take images of the claimant inside their home, tap phone lines. When recording video they may not record audio of the claimant simultaneously. In fact audio recording in public is a no-no as well.

Basically, the law behind this is the notion that you have no expectation of privacy outside of your own home, but you do have a strong expectation of privacy inside that home. Keep in mind, this isn't a particularly new law, it seems to have roots in the common law and might predate large-scale insurance consumption by the masses (but I'm not going to do the research right now to back this up, so don't nit-pick me on this, mkay?).

Who does it benefit? It benefits insurance companies to some extent, Google Streetview teams, and other people with an interest in recording what's going on in public. It benefits shopkeepers who can put up CCTV cameras pointing outside their stores for security. But your implication is right, it doesn't benefit everybody. But don't make the mistake of thinking that the Insurance companies bought and paid for these laws, they didn't (though they may stump up good money if those laws get threatened).

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a lawyer, the above are not legal opinions, if you want a legal opinion please go talk to your lawyer!

Re:Is she really sure it was locked?

[93 Escort Wagon]

Yeah, having dealt with a family member who suffered through clinical depression for several years - I can say with certainty that very few of the posts in this discussion show any knowledge of the disease whatsoever. Especially those that are claiming "going out and doing fun stuff" will have any affect on the disease whatsoever.

Clinical depression has very little to do with what people normally experience when they're "feeling depressed".

Evil

[Aldenissin]

Evil insurance company, plain and simple. I am not saying that they all are, but this is beyond grasping at straws. This is healing someone because they are sick, and them kicking them to the curb and throwing them out because they show signs of recovery. She should sue them for making the depression worse. We should get together and figure out how to draw enough attention to put a stop to this, and make an example for other insurance companies.

  This is a prime example why I don't think capitalism alone has all of the answers. If A needs B and C to prosper, and C needs A & B, A will rape B dry until C is so bad off that it is also hurting A. How does this make sense?

Not Surprising

[eldavojohn]

She also doesn’t understand how Manulife accessed her photos because her Facebook profile is locked and only people she approves can look at what she posts.

Oh, please, you're talking to a generation that grew up watching Dateline and 20/20 where insurance companies hired private investigators to stalk people who would do the following:

1. Bring a flask of water or oil into Walmart or some supermarket.
2. Covertly empty it onto the floor.
3. Come back minutes later to 'slip' on said spill.
4. Sue the hell out of the store and claim crazy grief and pain charges in court.

So then you'd see the companies hiring PIs to track the people (who allegedly could barely move) tearing it up at Disney World. Yeah, scam artists and fraudsters.

You shouldn't be surprised to see insurance companies being very proactive in their searches to follow up on people. I cannot say whether or not she is legitimately getting the short end of the stick or if she's defrauding the company. Sounds like the former. If she had made claims that she never smiled and couldn't go out in public due to depression then she might have problems. Why doesn't she just get her doctor to send a note to her insurance company explaining that people suffering from this magnitude of depression (and those recovering from it) can force themselves to smile for a picture? I mean, it's likely that the insurance company got tired of paying sick leave for depression unless it could be shown to be a chemical imbalance they probably were just looking for any reason to have to stop forking over pay.

Personally, I was offered $250 by my company's health insurance plan if I signed something that said I had not used tobacco products in the past 6 months. I hadn't but a few years ago I had (what I was told) were Cuban cigars in Mexico. Those friends put pictures of me on Facebook smoking them. So what? Well, if they found contrary evidence to my claim, I faced having my insurance terminated. Not worth the $250. Be aware of what Facebook puts on display for the world--even if you think it's private it's usually not. I mean, it could be as inane as some coworker who doesn't like her sees her other friend at work tagged in a photo with 'depressed' coworker on leave and decided to copy what photos they could see and forward them on to the insurance company?

Depressed or Bi-Polar?

[Xeleema]

after her insurance provider found photos of her on Facebook smiling and looking cheerful at parties and out on the beach....

Well, she was on benefits because she was diagnosed as depressed, and it's already been said that any psychiatrist worth their salt will tell you to get yourself out there and at least *try* to have a good time.

But seriously, this is a bit out of hand, hasn't anyone at her insurance carrier ever had a picture taken? What does the photographer usually scream at you?

SMILE!!!

As someone that suffers from depression too..

[malkavian]

I think this could rebound terribly (and rightfully) on the insurer.
The worst thing for a clinical depression is to stay closeted away. In the UK, there is no "social prescribing", where a GP may decide that the root of your troubles are a social disconnection. This disconnect raises stress, and is a sizable aspect in depression.
Rather than pump people full of antidepressants, they prescribe you a visit to a local social group that is ratified as being suitable for this (can be activity groups, plain social groups, heading to a gym, or whatever would best fit the person that's available).
This has had marked benefits to many that use the service.
Depression is always a fight, and when you fight it best, there's always a time that you smile. It may not last for long, but every point you can laugh and be brought out is an absolute gem. And there's no surprise that mates will take a pic of you when you're smiling and paste it on Facebook, rather than ones of you looking glum and disconnected.
One of those gems, for me, was years ago, just after my brother had had a massive car smash that left him on life support. One of my friends had first been blunt (there's nothing you can do, so get on with life while this goes on and things work themselves out), then actually managed to get me out and make me laugh. For just a minute; epic effort on his part, but it gave me a moment's respite, for which I'm eternally grateful.
Now, if anyone had dared to say to me in that minute or two of respite that I wasn't upset, torn up and terrified, I'd have torn them several new ones, and stomped on the pieces until the men in white coats dragged me off.
Smiling pictures of a depressive are not evidence they're not depressed. They're evidence that they have a good support network of people who are prepared to do the heavy emotional lifting to keep them going..
Cutting the insurance is going to make anyone depressive (or recovering depressive) fall far back down the treatment path..
Wouldn't be surprised to find this one in litigation sometime soon.

Re:Her lawyer should pursue this.

[JohnFluxx]

And you are hardly going to be post pictures of when you're unhappy, and people tend to smile just for photos, so you get a selective image of someone.

The agent's no expert.

[TheLink]

Yeah.

A cancer patient might be rather sick, but make an extra effort for special events.

What next? They're going to cancel insurance for cancer patients if they look like they're better?

An insurance agent is unlikely to be an authoritative expert on medical matters (or in the rarefied field of "psychiatric diagnosis via facebook photos") - they may know some stuff (just like I do), but when it comes to a court case or other legal stuff it should not be their call to make. If the insurance company has doubts they should insist that the policy holder be examined by a certified expert in the relevant field. After all, it's not unusual that you have to go for a medical examination when you sign up for certain sorts of insurance. They don't just leave it to an insurance agent to say "hmm she looks ok to me".

Too bad if her case is genuine she'll likely be too depressed to sue them (unless she can afford her meds and is still taking them).

Re:Troll me all you want.

[betterunixthanunix]

Some people are not as able to cope with depression as you claim to be. I have a few friends who suffer, and if they were not receiving medication and therapy, they would never have the will to see daylight, let alone accomplish anything. For them, it is not a matter of biting the bullet, they need help, and thankfully they receive it.

Re:Then you can work, thief!

[instantkamera]

from my post on TFA:
Here's the thing, it doesn't really matter if she is plain old lazy, or truly depressed.
The issue here is that the insurance company is making the call, and it is not their job to make that decision.
The insurance company's job is to collect premiums and pay out when the doctor says "this person has a bad back" or "this person has a broken leg" or "this person is clinically depressed".

It is my assumption that this woman has regular meetings with a doctor at which time she is assessed to see - "is she still depressed?", "Has there been any improvement?", etc.
THAT is the ONLY information the insurance company needs to make their decision.

Anything else, such as info from FACEBOOK, does not tell the whole story, hell, it might not tell ANY part of the story. It may be irrelevant, and it may just be misinterpreted completely by someone who lacks the professional designation to be making decisions and pointing fingers in the first place.

The insurance company no doubt will argue that the have to "protect their assets" and that "people scam insurance co. all the time". While that is no doubt true, we must not forget that the insurance companies make plenty of cash by ripping people off on a daily basis. It's a two way street.

Bottom line, insurance companies HAVE to take the advice of "trusted" professionals, trusted or not, really. That is why we have doctors and lawyers etc - we must have someone who has the proper knowledge to make the ultimate decision.

If they want to save money so bad, they can start by firing the person that is paid to browse facebook.

Re:A great fraud story!

[mikael_j]

As someone who has known several people with depression and bipolar disorder I'd like call bullshit on your kneejerk "FRAUD!" conclusion.

Most people with depression can be just fine for an hour or two and then spend a long time not even leaving their bed, those who are bipolar can be even worse, they'll be at a party having a blast and in just a few minutes they'll switch over to seriously contemplating suicide right then and there.

And even discounting this and trying to look happy for everyone else's sake there's also the fact that a lot depressed people do seem to really value those times when they can shake their depression for a few minutes or hours, and guess which image of themselves they'd rather show friends and family...

/Mikael

That's depressing!

[tomhudson]

You know when the most dangerous time is for someone who has suicidal tendencies. It's when they cheer up - it might mean that they've made the final decision to end it all. They'll be happy, smiling, giving away their stuff, party-party-party - and then they kill themselves.

Not only can you not diagnose whether someone's suffering from depression (it's NOT "gee, I'm depressed") by just looking at pictures - it's actually against the shrinks' professional code here in Quebec to proffer a diagnosis or ANY opinion without actually having examined the patient.

The proper course for the insurance company would have been to get a second opinion.

Re:Then you can work, thief!

[schon]

The problem is that doctors are rather incented to declare people sick, so insurers will pay them.

This. This is what is wrong with US health care. The only incentive doctors should have to declare people sick is that the people are sick. If your system is designed to encourage anything else then it's broken by definition.

The case for reform

[Jawn98685]

So..., you're saying that some kind of evil bureaucracy is being allowed to get between a patient and his or her doctor? And meddle in the healthcare decisions that are made by patient and doctor? Why, that's scandalous! We should protest such bureaucratic meddling and demand that our rights as patients be protected from same.
Oh, wait...

Re:Then you can work, thief!

[Anonymous Coward]

This particular story is out of Canada, different health-care system, different incentives.

Yes, but this sort of insurance is PRIVATE INSURANCE. Were it covered under the Universal health care, it would not be an issue. A private company has a profit motive, and therefore usually tries to come up with ways to DENY CLAIMS. Now, perhaps this is a wrong instance, perhaps it is a right instance... I'm not informed enough to know.

But certainly, a fraud claim under the public system would require much more evidence than just "we saw some pictures of her smiling." This is more like the guy claiming he couldn't work cuz he has a bad back, and then people seeing him building a house (god I've seen this at last 3 times, fucking scammers). Those people need to be OUTED big time, because we are paying for those pricks to collect $$$ for nothing; and worse, they then work under the table on side jobs and pay no taxes BACK into the system!!!

Manulife is acting EXACTLY like the US health care system. EXACTLY.