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House Outlaws Obama's NASA Intervention

TopSpin writes "NASA's Constellation Program and Ares rockets appear to have strong support in Congress. An appropriations bill passed by the House includes language that bars 'any efforts by NASA to cancel or change the current Constellation program without first seeking approval of Congress.' The Administration's appointed NASA leadership is being publicly hostile towards its traditional aerospace affiliations. As Charles Bolden put it to industry execs, 'We are going to be fighting and fussing over the coming year,' and 'Some of you are not going to like me because we are not going to do the same kind of things we've always done.'"

37 of 209 comments (clear)

  1. Oink! Oink! by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's so very important not to change the carefully crafted pork that these projects tend to be once Congress gets their crusty little fingers on them.

    "Our minds are made up, don't confuse us with the facts".

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    1. Re:Oink! Oink! by TheKidWho · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course, I'm sure you've been on many decade long aerospace engineering projects to know how it should work.

    2. Re:Oink! Oink! by TheKidWho · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right, let's just sit on our asses and wait for that Technological leap to appear out of nowhere so we can utilize the infinite resources in space. I mean that is how technology progresses right? Just sit on ones ass, somewhere someone will come up with the right idea.

    3. Re:Oink! Oink! by maxume · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Until someone makes a technological leap past chemical rockets, the resources of space are anything but infinite.

      And I don't think repeated practice with 40 year old chemical rocket technology is going to lead to that leap.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:Oink! Oink! by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Right, let's just sit on our asses and wait for that Technological leap to appear out of nowhere so we can utilize the infinite resources in space.

      That's exactly what we should do. In the mean time, robotic probes can accomplish much more useful work in space than fragile human meat sacks at a small fraction of the cost.

    5. Re:Oink! Oink! by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Of course, I'm sure you've been on many decade long aerospace engineering projects to know how it should work.

      I grew up around NASA - at the KSC and JSC. I watched as the US built up the space program from Mercury to Gemini to Apollo. I watched as Congress gutted NASA after Apollo and managed to create the kludge that is the Shuttle. I watched as NASA and it's contractors managed to get the Shuttle off the ground despite the roadblocks put up in front of if.

      I know enough to realize that rocket science is hard and that Congress, as a body, is no more able to micromanage booster technology than it is able to manage, well just about anything. Congress has a near perfect track record of solving the wrong problem, solving the right problem in the wrong way which results in not solving the problem, and / or doing anything but attempting to solve the problem along with a myriad of other generic inabilities.

      Congress should make general policy and let the people that know what they are doing implement it. Congress should NOT micromanage.

      And while you're at it, I'd like a Pony.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    6. Re:Oink! Oink! by TheKidWho · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But the ultimate goal is to send humans into space not robots.

    7. Re:Oink! Oink! by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're confusing the ends with the means. The ultimate goal is to gain scientific knowledge and/or access to resources. This can currently be done more effectively without the additional cost of sending humans.

      The only current useful purpose for sending humans into space is to provide an exhibition of national bravado.

    8. Re:Oink! Oink! by Tikkun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But the ultimate goal is to send humans into space not robots.

      And do what? Live? Currently we do not have the means or technology to build a self supporting orbital colony, or one on the Moon or on Mars. Spending more money on putting humans in space won't magically develop technologies needed to support life outside of Earth.

      I agree that it is imperative that for the survival of our species that we have more than one home in the solar system. We can better work towards that by focusing on science, which outside of our orbit is most efficiently done with probes.

    9. Re:Oink! Oink! by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, only a few years, but its pretty clear that this is not in the best interest of furthering space exploration, but rather in keeping jobs in a few congressional districts -- namely Huntsville, Alabama. Marshall Space Flight Center stands the most to lose if Ares falls through, but MSFC is in many ways a dinosaur of the Apollo era and hasn't transitioned to being a leaner, more efficient group.

      Consider this: for the cost of building Ares 1-X, the test-flight that consisted of a shuttle SRB with some dummy mass on top and made up to look like an Ares 1, what was essentially the worlds largest model rocket, cost $450M -- SpaceX, has developed one working rocket and has almost completed a larger one for around the same cost. While obviously the Ares program will cost more than what a company like SpaceX will spend, since they're building bigger rockets to do riskier things, there is something wrong when a mere model costs that much.

      The problem with micromanaging NASA through congress is that the only districts where its an issue that can make a difference in an election are the ones where they want to maintain the status quo, which is not working well. Everyone else who sees it and disagrees with its handling probably aren't going to swing their vote based on it, since there are a myriad of other, more immediate things to consider as well.

    10. Re:Oink! Oink! by jstults · · Score: 3, Interesting
      1. In June 2002, Musk founded his third company, Space Exploration Technologies (SpaceX).
      2. The Falcon 1 achieved orbit on its fourth attempt, on 28 September 2008.

      Check your assumptions, that's all Bolden's been asked by his boss to do, you should too.

    11. Re:Oink! Oink! by TheLink · · Score: 4, Informative

      But if the goal is to send people to space sustainably and for the long term, then NASA should be doing things like building and testing space stations that can spin and thus create artificial "gravity", and have decent radiation shielding. The long term goal should be creating space colonies, in _space_. Colonies where future generations of humans can live and reproduce. Thus the target would be developing technologies that would make it possible.

      Not working on sending people to Mars or the Moon. Getting to the moon has already been done.

      Getting people stuck on other gravity wells in the Solar System is silly and expensive. And talks of expensive, rushed (because of poor shielding and other issues), potentially one way trips to Mars are even more ridiculous.

      What's so great about living on the Moon or Mars? It's not like they are human friendly places. What can you get from Mars or Moon that you can't get from asteroids?

      There are plenty of asteroids to mine out there. Asteroids have a lot of water:

      http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050907_ceres_planet.html
      http://www.universetoday.com/2009/10/08/more-water-out-there-ice-found-on-asteroid/

      You might even be able to hollow out an asteroid and turn it into a space station.

      Just because we're living on a decent planet doesn't mean that getting stuck on other gravity wells should be our goal. We should only get stuck in one if it's as good as Earth (or almost as good). And the other planets and moons in the Solar System are far from meeting that mark.

      --
    12. Re:Oink! Oink! by ThreeGigs · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think you missed the point, as did anyone who modded it troll.

      The language that effectively ties NASA's hands was inserted in the bill by Senator Richard Shelby, a Republican from...drum roll please.... Alabama. Where NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center is located.

      And that language boils down to: "no changes". Subcontract a part of the crew module out to Russia, Germany or France? No. Not unless Congress approves. Even if it'll get Ares off the ground sooner...nope. Cancel or delay Ares I to concentrate on Ares V? Nope. Even though Russia already has, and will continue to have, the capability to put people in orbit thus rendering Ares I redundant, while what's really needed is the heavy-lift capability of Ares V.

      Shelby wants one thing: Money in Alabama. So say bye bye to Kennedy Space center, and write off the US Government using commercially (read: private industry) available means to ferry crew to space. If SpaceX or Virgin Galactic manages to get people into LEO by 2015, NASA wouldn't be able to buy a seat without Congress' approval.

      The 'no changes' language has nothing to do with getting into space or not, and everything to do with making sure money flows to contractors in Alabama.

    13. Re:Oink! Oink! by jstults · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah, those DoD contracts where he actually (attempted) to put stuff in orbit...what pork! They weren't paying him for power point slides...

      Apparently Falcon 1 / SpaceX startup costs are around $450M, which is about what that recent Ares I-X test flight costs. You think there might be a little difference in the overhead of the two operations?

      I'm not arguing against the conservation of energy, (yeah lots of energy to get something to LEO), just that there might be a better way.

    14. Re:Oink! Oink! by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2, Interesting

      To date, the main use of peoples' improvisational abilities in space has been to save their own asses when they got into trouble.

      (Missions like fixing the Hubble telescope don't count, either. It would have been cheaper to build several Hubbles on an assembly line and launch them as they break than to send shuttle missions to service them.)

    15. Re:Oink! Oink! by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Three out of five flights, and the order matters significantly. The two that have been successful are significantly different than the three that failed. They added baffles to the tanks, improved the control algorithms, changed materials. They *FIXED* all of the issues that caused the early failures. Also, if its cheaper to blow up a few unmanned rockets than it is to design it perfectly the first time, then that sounds like the right way to do it. I'd consider the reliability of the Falcon 1 the same as any vehicle with a 2-0 record. Still not too reliable yet, but showing promise.

      And those safety numbers are in so many ways bogus, since they only consider known failure modes. Everything thats ever killed an American astronaut was an unknown failure mode. Since Falcon 9 is intended for human use as well, with the same safety goals, and is in a further state of development than Ares 1, I can't help but be shocked by the sheer price of *just* Ares 1-X. If it were the entire Ares 1 program that had cost so much so far I'd say it was pretty reasonable and even cheap -- but no, just the aerodynamic and structural test cost that much.

    16. Re:Oink! Oink! by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To you the ultimate goal is scientific knowledge and resources.

      To me the ultimate goal is human settlement beyond Earth.

      To congresspeople the ultimate goal is getting reelected.

      What you see as nationalistic chest thumping I see as (admittedly often poorly done) continued development of technology to support frontier development. They of course see it as jobs for their district. Conversations about how we should do things first require an agreement on the goals.

    17. Re:Oink! Oink! by DerekLyons · · Score: 3, Informative

      I watched as Congress gutted NASA after Apollo and managed to create the kludge that is the Shuttle.

      In other words, even though 'grew up' around NASA, you prefer urban legends to facts.
       

      I know enough to realize that rocket science is hard and that Congress, as a body, is no more able to micromanage booster technology than it is able to manage, well just about anything.

      Had Congress micromanaged booster technology, you'd have a point. But the fact is, a reusable booster was on NASA's menu from very early on. Even while Gemini was flying, NASA was planning the Shuttle.
       
      Heck, remember Gemini was itself a political creation. As Mercury was winding down, NASA management realized that it would be years before Apollo flew and that they needed some Buck Rogers to keep the bucks flowing, so they dusted off an unsolicited McDonnell (not yet merged with Douglas) proposal for Mercury MKII and justified it was 'a development program for Apollo'. (Despite the fact that the Apollo design was already frozen.)
       

      I watched as NASA and it's contractors managed to get the Shuttle off the ground despite the roadblocks put up in front of if.

      Roadblocks largely put in front of it by NASA itself.
       
      Despite being clearly told that budgets would be limited in the future, NASA insisted on proposing an expensive Shuttle-Station-Mars program. When rebuked by Congress, NASA responded by promising to deliver a revolutionary new spacecraft on an extremely optimistic budget and an even more optimistic schedule. Many space historians believe that NASA had convinced itself, despite abundant evidence otherwise, that the austerity of the late 60's and early 70's was an aberration and that soon happy times and near blank checks would resume shortly. More than a few believe that, institutionally, NASA retains this conviction even today.

    18. Re:Oink! Oink! by khallow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Chemical rockets are not that limiting. For example, there's no reason that they can't attain similar economics as commercial airlines. You have similar energy needs (a long passenger jet flight consumes a similar amount of energy as it takes to reach orbit) and similar roles (carry passengers and cargo on "trips"). The profound difference is that there's maybe a few dozen rocket flights a year at best while there are somewhere around thirty thousand passenger jet flights per day just in the US.

      My view is that if rockets were flying at the same rate as passenger jets, fuel costs would be about a third of overall cost (as they are for passenger jets). That means roughly $300 per kg for vehicles using liquid oxygen and hydrogen or $100 per kg for vehicles using liquid oxygen and kerosene. That's well over an order of magnitude cheaper than today's price (and the cost goes down, if energy gets cheaper).

    19. Re:Oink! Oink! by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then I would argue that the failure mode is poor management and schedule rush -- definitely things not included in whatever safety numbers were quoted when the shuttle was being designed. The point is that whenever those 1 in 1000 numbers are pulled out they are almost meaningless -- the failures that did occur weren't included in those.

      Its like judging the safety of a car on whether or not a freak string of events is likely to blow up the car on any given trip (or the brake lines fail, or your toyota accelerates without your command), when everyone knows that the most likely reason you're going to die in the car is because you or someone else screws up. While you want to do your best to keep the freak accidents from happening, more time needs to be spent making mistakes less damaging, and training people to avoid them.

    20. Re:Oink! Oink! by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      (Missions like fixing the Hubble telescope don't count, either. It would have been cheaper to build several Hubbles on an assembly line and launch them as they break than to send shuttle missions to service them.)

      Might have been cheaper, faster and more effective. But the Hubble servicing missions DID give us practice in doing repairs in space. That is the sort of practice and technique we're going to need if we plan on doing anything in space that approaches 'routine'. Like go to the asteroids / Mars / Moon.

      Saving one's bacon is a very strong motivator to getting something done. We need to do more of it. Or do you think that we won't have any equipment problems as we scale up our space activities?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    21. Re:Oink! Oink! by FleaPlus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The language that effectively ties NASA's hands was inserted in the bill by Senator Richard Shelby, a Republican from...drum roll please.... Alabama. Where NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center is located.

      It's also worth noting that Alabama's NASA Marshall Space Flight Center, which is the center most responsible for the Ares I and Constellation, has a strong tradition of mass incompetence for the past 30 years or so. While I'm sure the engineers there are quite good, the MSFC management is incredibly horrible and has a reputation for clamping down on any sort of dissent from their engineers. They literally haven't had a single successful launch development project during the time that many slashdotters have been alive, but quite a few failures: the X-33, X-34, National Launch System, Space Launch Initiative, Advanced Solid Rocket Motor, Orbital Space Plane, and so forth. Having MSFC in charge of a large project is pretty much a guarantee that it will suffer from feature/incompetency bloat and end up going massively overbudget, and have to be eventually canceled.

      Of course, Senator Shelby is quite good at what he does, and manages to get them pork barrel funding regardless of their actual performance.

    22. Re:Oink! Oink! by c6gunner · · Score: 2, Informative

      You have similar energy needs (a long passenger jet flight consumes a similar amount of energy as it takes to reach orbit)

      Wait .... WHAT? In what universe?

      I was with you on the previous comment, but now you've completely derailed and started to roll. Your average jetliner holds less than 200,000 liters of fuel. The external tank for the Space Shuttle holds 500,000 liters of liquid oxygen, and 1.5 MILLION liters of hydrogen, for a combined total of 2 million liters of liquid propellant. So, on volume alone, it takes 10 times as much fuel to go into orbit, and that's without considering the fact that the H2/02 mixture releases a hell of a lot more energy than your standard jet-fuel.

      Now, yeah, the space shuttle isn't exactly the most efficient means of getting stuff in orbit, but even if you came up with a much more efficient launch system there's no way in hell you'd ever make it as fuel-efficient as a trans-continental commercial flight. Not even close.

    23. Re:Oink! Oink! by TheKidWho · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because it's there? Because there are enough resources in space to allow all of humanity to live in riches?

    24. Re:Oink! Oink! by RabidOverYou · · Score: 4, Funny

      > thermite and shit

      Take it from me, that's a bad combination.

      Rabid

    25. Re:Oink! Oink! by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2, Informative

      (Missions like fixing the Hubble telescope don't count, either. It would have been cheaper to build several Hubbles on an assembly line and launch them as they break than to send shuttle missions to service them.)

      This is an interesting statement. References?

      The estimated cost of the Hubble was $400 million. From what I've read it costs $60 million to launch the Shuttle. Now these two numbers are rubbish, of course, because the $400 million I'm quoting is to design and build one space telescope whereas the $60 million I'm quoting is to put one already designed and built Shuttle into orbit. Of course, you can also say that one Shuttle launch costs $1.3 billion, but you can also say that the Hubble cost $2.5 billion to construct--what with the delays.

      (These numbers are from the wikipedia articles on the Space Shuttle and Hubble telescope)

      When you say you spent $40 on groceries, do you include the portion of your car payment for the car that you drove to the store in? Do you include the cost of the gas that you burned to get to the store? How about the cost of the gas that you burned to get to the gas station to get the gas that you later burned to get to the store? Do you include the percent of taxes that you paid for the road(s) that you used to get to the store? Do you "save money" by only including the cost of the road that you used to get to the store? You can make a trip to the grocery store very expensive if you include those numbers.

      In other words, most numbers you see on the costs are adjusted by one agenda or another. That's why I'd be curious to see where you're getting this from.

      By the way, just as aside, one issue with the Hubble was that after the Challenger accident, it had to be stored for several years in a clean room, powered up, and purged with nitrogen at a cost of about $6,000,000 per month. So assuming that we built two Hubbles and launched one in January 1990 and the other to replace the first one in December of 1993, that would mean 2 years and 11 months at $6,000,000 per month to keep the second Hubble ready to go. Total cost: $1,584,000,000. That's more than the $1.3 Billion for a Shuttle launch.

  2. Well, I'm glad thats settled. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Funny

    I wouldn't want there to be any confusion about whether scientists or defense contractors are in charge of the direction of our space program.

    1. Re:Well, I'm glad thats settled. by biryokumaru · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, it can be a little more subtle than that. Eisenhower described the process thusly:

      Politicians are concerned about the welfare of their constituents. During wartime/other massive government spending in industry, more and more of those constituents become financially dependent on military/government contractor industry for jobs. To act in the best interest of their constituents, politicians are compelled to continue war, or to make other kinds of major fiscal decisions benefiting those industries.

      By promoting massive, wasteful spending on NASA, many politicians could be actively seeking the immediate best interest of their constituents.

      Representative democracy should fear the military industrial complex.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
  3. International "cooperation" by tomhath · · Score: 2, Funny

    The Obama administration still clings to the idea that the world is a friendly place full of pink unicorns and people who want to be all huggy-kissy with everyone else. There's no reason to develop technology more advanced than other countries'; we'll all play nice together like happy socialists are supposed to and not compete like evil capitalists.

    1. Re:International "cooperation" by tomhath · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yea, because Clinton's policy of ignoring problems worked out so well for the US, about the same as appeasement did throughout the last century. Obama has brought it to a new level with his "bend over" foreign policy.

      Who specifically are you referring to when you say "those who used to be our friends"? Our relationship with China was better under Bush than it had ever been. Muslim countries? Never been great, but the moderates are still as friendly as can be expected. You blame Bush for Putin's policies in Russia? Pffft. I'm quite happy living in the US, if you want change you can go somewhere else.

    2. Re:International "cooperation" by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yea, because Clinton's policy of ignoring problems worked out so well for the US

      When Clinton had missiles fired at Ossama Bin Laden, it was all "Wag the dog! He's trying to distract from the important issue of his blowjobs!"
      There was a little war in Kosovo...

      Yeah, he was ignoring problems just like Bush was eloquent.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    3. Re:International "cooperation" by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      By most accounts, Obama is actually a centrist. The far right has painted him as a mad spender because of the stimulus package, but that was actually a mainstream economist viewpoint also, not just left-wing economists. And the stimulus package also had tax-cuts.

  4. It won't be law without Obama's Approval by ericnils · · Score: 2, Interesting
    This still need to get through the senate intact and be approved by the President before it is of any consequence.

    From http://www.rules.house.gov/POP/approps_proc.htm:

    Congressional action on an appropriation measure is not complete until both the House and Senate have successfully disposed of all amendments between the Houses eventually agreeing on an identical text pursuant to the Constitution - at which point the President acts on the bill.

  5. No Good Guys Here, but Separation of Powers = Good by rbrander · · Score: 4, Insightful

    NASA has always been used as a pork barrel, and the engineers who just want to fly birds have both used that shamelessly to get funded, and been victimized by it, in equal turns. It's hard to guess whether they would have created cheaper, simpler designs if feeding billions into the industrial complex (in all 50 states as often as possible) were not the more important goal than flying.

    Bottom line, I find it hard to cheer for either side when these spats come up. You always want to take the side of the homies (fund NASA, fly something cool somewhere), but NASA is spending so many millions per kilogram flown that the whole thing will ALWAYS be for a lucky tiny few as long as their big-iron design philosophy is enabled by those who LIVE to spend tax dollars (in their state).

    Silver lining though: Americans may have forgotten that their Congress has the power to tell the Executive branch "NO!". That the founders considered the legislature, NOT the executive, the first among three equals, because it directly represents the people on the most frequent election cycle.

    Who knows, this "make the executive branch moves illegal" power, now revived for the first time in years, may one day be used to make torture, fake intelligence, and war itself less likely instead of perfectly acceptable.

  6. Re:Military-industrial complex fights hard by fm6 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Where have you been? The first salvo was fired even before Obama was sworn in. That would be when he persuaded Defense Secretary Robert Gates (who used to literally count the days until he was replaced) to stay on. I've often wondered how and why Obama did that. My best guess is that they agreed on an agenda of cost cutting and procurement reform.

    When Gates announced his program, the defense special interests fought back — hard. And yet they lost. Mind-boggling, but true. Now that's change I can believe in!

    I'm all for space travel, but I want to see the same thing happen at NASA. Anybody who really believes we're going to start a moon base and travel to Mars using Apollo-style space capsules is fooling themselves. The program is pure pork, USDA approved.

  7. Fuckloads per shit-ton. by meepzorb · · Score: 2, Funny
    This fuckload of power requires a shit-ton of money to buy.

    Damn, has NASA switched unit systems again!?

  8. There are fundamental differences by mnemonic_ · · Score: 2, Informative

    Chem rockets can't achieve the efficiency of jet engines because they carry their own fuel and oxidizer. Jets only carry fuel and thus need to propel less weight. Rockets also must generate enough thrust to support the entire vehicle weight. Jets normally fly at thrust-to-weight ratios below one, by having wings that rest on the surrounding medium (air, lift). Rockets must also propel their payloads under these conditions to ~330,000 ft. Commercial airliners reach cruising altitude at 35-40,000 ft. The climb gulps fuel, but the following cruise sips it; rockets are climbing the entire time. This is all scraped from undergrad propulsion, but I think it's right.

    One solution is to combine propulsion methods, to use airbreathing propulsion for atmospheric flight and rockets beyond. This could be either a combined-cycle engine (turbine with a rocket in the spindle), or something like SpaceShipOne/White Knight, where a jet-powered platform brings a rocket-ship to altitude. Chemical rocket costs aren't just limited by rocket makers trying to maximize profits on limited launches. They're inherently less efficient than airbreathing propulsion, but aren't limited by the atmosphere.