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Best Open Source Business Tools?

An anonymous reader writes "My wife and I started an S Corp in 2009 mainly to provide small scale consulting services for friends with small businesses of their own (we build them websites and do odd technical jobs). Now that the year is closing I'm giving thought to our corporate tax filings which will be due March 15th. I've scoured the web for free/open source legal templates for hiring contractors, issuing W-2s, keeping shareholder minute meetings, etc, but haven't been able to find any decent sources. It seems like this should be a priority of the open source community since reducing the cost of entry into small business could drive open source development. What are the best sources of open source legal templates, tax filing software, corporate compliance templates, etc?" What experiences have others had with open sources businesses and the best way to consolidate the necessary corporate mojo into a workable model?

22 of 164 comments (clear)

  1. Divergent Interests by causality · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've scoured the web for free/open source legal templates for hiring contractors, issuing W-2s, keeping shareholder minute meetings, etc, but haven't been able to find any decent sources. It seems like this should be a priority of the open source community since reducing the cost of entry into small business could drive open source development.

    I agree that this could only be a good thing. However, most of the Open Source community consists of developers, sysadmins, and other technically-minded folks. By contrast, this is more of a legal issue.

    I also wonder if anyone who provides such open-source legal templates might be exposing himself to liability. Suppose someone uses such a template and it turns out to be incorrect, even by some minor technicality, and as a result that person has additional legal expenses or other damages. They just might try to sue the person who produced the template. Unlike software, where disclaiming liability is a standard practice, legal advice or legal documents might be much more problematic. I am definitely not a lawyer but I hope a lawyer might take a moment to explain whether this is a legitimate concern.

    --
    It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    1. Re:Divergent Interests by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      You can disclaim liability over "legal advice" as well as legal document templates. This is the premise by which websites such as www.docstoc.com get away with offering free legal document templates. (They're actually a great source for start-ups.) It's basically just a matter of making it known and understood that you're not an attorney, nor have the templates been altered specifically for your use, and so you should use them at your own discretion and at the advice of your own legal attorney.

      As for the various open source software applications you mentioned, I am not sure, but open source *Business* accounting software is basically non-existent.

      For our web development startup, Forward Interfaces, we developed our own time-clock web application with which we can track our hours (we're a small operation of 3 company members thus far) and we plan on developing our own quickbooks-style accounting software, project management and CRM suite. We figure, even if there is existing software out there, it's probably not going to be *exactly* what we need - and hey, we're a software development company!

    2. Re:Divergent Interests by causality · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd say the same but there are sites like Legalzoom.com and such that offer it for a price. I wonder if they have the same issue ? I honestly don't know but I wonder if they have a disclaimer us OSS people could use as well to protect us from this sort of thing.

      True, though Legalzoom might be a special case. The people behind it are lawyers, so they are much less likely to make such a mistake on the forms. They would also be well-equipped to defend themselves in a lawsuit. Legalzoom is a (presumably) profitable company so a lawsuit, even a successful one, is unlikely to be a showstopper for them. The corporation would be sued but not its individual members. I'd imagine this wouldn't be nearly the showstopper that the same thing happening to a regular non-lawyer citizen who gets personally sued could be.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    3. Re:Divergent Interests by greensoap · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In light of the topic, I am not giving anyone legal advice nor do my comments intend to replace, compliment, or supplement the enlightened advice of an attorney in your state. In fact, I might be completely wrong so do not rely on anything I say. These are merely my uneducated opinions on the topic at hand.

      Interstingly, Legalzoom is a corporation and as such, is not legally allowed to provide legal advice. Many states, allow for Limited Liability Partnerships which as similar to corps. but do not entirely insulate an individual from a lawsuit. In an LLP, one partner is not liable for the malpractice of another partner, but each is liable for his/her own malpractice. Thus, LLPs do not provide absolute insulation from professional liability but the firm as a whole is insulated for another's liability.

      Corporations have much broader insulation for shareholders to encourage investment. LLP's aren't allowed to have non-professional investors. Thus, if the LLP is a law firm then only lawyers may invest in the LLP. If the LLP is a medical practice, then only doctors. Basically, most states don't want to guarantee no liability for people in these fields but still want to encourage efficient partnerships. Thus, the LLP was formed.

      The fact the Legalzoom exists as a corporation tends to promote the idea that these form providers are not handing out legal advice, at least not under the definition of the states where they provide there forms. Of course, they may be "risking" it and might be in violation of some state's law, but I didn't take the time to go check any individual state's law on the unauthorized practice of law with reference to "legal" forms. There is likely some case law out there with respect to tax forms and wills/trusts forms since people have been publishing self-help books with template forms in those areas for decades.

    4. Re:Divergent Interests by Eil · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I also wonder if anyone who provides such open-source legal templates might be exposing himself to liability. Suppose someone uses such a template and it turns out to be incorrect, even by some minor technicality, and as a result that person has additional legal expenses or other damages. They just might try to sue the person who produced the template.

      You can sue anyone for anything, it's getting the court to agree that's the hard part. In this case, no sane judge is going to agree with assertion that posting a document template or example form to the Internet constitutes bona fide legal advice.

      The root problem here is that the submitter wants to be able to do all the things that a certified lawyer (or accountant, etc) is trained to do, but doesn't want to hire one.

    5. Re:Divergent Interests by Ritchie70 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One key to a successful business is, so much as possible, to only do things that contribute to your bottom line.

      Guess what? SAP doesn't work the way the way the really big business who use it want either. They change their entire business process to use SAP.

      I work for a Fortune 200 company. We sell food.

      Decades ago they wrote the accounting software in COBOL. I work with some of the guys who did the work. But now they're implementing Oracle Financials, and they're changing business process as necessary.

      Quickbooks or a similar package is probably sufficient for you - even if it doesn't work exactly how you want. You can almost certainly live with it, and unless your business is the sale of accounting software (web-based or otherwise) you have no business writing your own.

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
  2. I'm not sure there are any Free templates... by reimero · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm not an expert in this field, but it would surprise me greatly if there were Free templates of the sort you seek. For starters, most business law is governed by state law rather than federal law, so the requirements will depend in large part on where you are incorporated.
    Second, the sources for those templates would generally be the experts who derive their living from selling that sort of information (i.e. lawyers, accountants, tax firms, etc.) It is in their own financial best interests not to give away that which they need to make their own ends meet. Business law and tax law are very convoluted and generally require quite a bit of specialization.

    I can see the possibility of Free tools for W2s and meeting minutes, but I'm skeptical as to the availability of legal and taxation materials. Also, even if they were available, I would go in with both eyes open because as a business owner, you're on the hook for making sure you're using correct and current information, and taxes in particular change with alarming regularity.

    --

    ----------

    Something clever
    1. Re:I'm not sure there are any Free templates... by robwgibbons · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, there are several websites out there that exist for exactly this purpose - they're extremely great resources for the fledgling startup with no disposable cash for expensive legal services. If you don't mind getting your hands dirty doing some editing and don't mind really diving into the research to make sure you're up to par in your locality, then websites like www.docstoc.com are hugely helpful.

    2. Re:I'm not sure there are any Free templates... by NewWorldDan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Second, the sources for those templates would generally be the experts who derive their living from selling that sort of information

      I'm not sure I follow... there's a ton of open source software out there and it's produced by people who make their living producing software. There are also a lot of low cost legal templates available (see nolo.com, there's also a similar section at my local office supply store). In any event, the templates aren't a big deal - laywers use them routinely. The bigger problem is knowing all the stupid legal quirks that aren't shown on those forms (filing deadlines, limits, proceedures, etc.). Personally, I think it's shameful that we have a legal system that the common man can't use without professional help.

  3. There is none by supervillain · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The answer is there is none. Tax laws change yearly and unless get a team of lawyers from each state to donate their services to an open source project the software will not comply with those changes.

  4. Re:Wine by nametaken · · Score: 5, Informative

    Most of what he's talking about sounds like things there are already existing PDF forms for at IRS.gov.

  5. I will say it and await the flames by jimicus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You are wasting your time.

    The reason I say this is that, IME, OSS doesn't really deal very well with very niche requirements that aren't directly related to technology or anything that is not interesting from a technological standpoint.

    Sending, relaying and receiving email? There's a plethora of products.

    Writing a web application? Again, more options than I can even contemplate.

    Filling out your tax return or paying your staff? One or two options which are generally terrible. Frankly, tax software is a fairly simple problem: start with a few numbers, add/subtract/multiply a few other numbers, send a cheque for the result to the tax man. The technically interesting bit is writing a generic engine to deal with whatever addition/subtraction/multiplication is necessary but writing the rules for that engine to deal with the various tax laws worldwide is mind-numbingly boring and there's no standard way such as an internationally agreed XML schema for the taxman to publish this years' tax legislation.

    Software for your specific business niche? By definition, a niche.

    Groupware? The only reason anyone's writing replacements for Exchange is because they can't stand Exchange. It's a mind-numbingly boring set of problems that nobody in their right mind is going to go near unless Exchange has seriously pissed them off or there's real money in it.

    1. Re:I will say it and await the flames by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Tax software is hardly simple, though I agree it is on the technical side. Not only is there no "internationally agreed XML schema for the taxman to publish this years' tax legislation", but there is no formal record of this year's tax schema at all. The tax laws are riddled with vaguely worded provisions, some of which (in the US) have been clarified by IRS advisory opinions, tax court precedent, or regular court precedent. You basically need a team of lawyers from every jurisdiction to even figure out what the tax code is. Encoding it in software is the relatively easy part.

      Oh, and there are constant updates to it, some of which come out so late that patches ideally should be out 1-2 days after the new regulation is announced. Who is the volunteer who is going to spend their life monitoring the IRS's press releases and patching tax software?

  6. Bad idea by Shandalar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You want legal forms generated by Phil Grognard from his basement? No thanks - I trust Phil (mostly) to write software that doesn't crash all the time, but I don't want him looking out for my legal interests, and I don't particularly believe that he understands, for example, the limits of nondisclosure agreements with regard to pre-existing works in my particular state. Just use the Nolo books. They are inexpensive, far less expensive than 10 minutes of an attorney's time (literally).

  7. File W2's electronically by xyzzy42 · · Score: 5, Informative
  8. Stick to your business by jargoone · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you're doing well in your business, you won't have time to dick around creating "legal" documents and preparing your own taxes. That's what CPAs, and attorneys are for. If you had hired one of the two, he probably would have advised you to form an LLC rather than an S-Corp. But since you decided you knew better, you made a LOT more work for yourself.

    1. Re:Stick to your business by vlm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you had hired one of the two, he probably would have advised you to form an LLC rather than an S-Corp. But since you decided you knew better, you made a LOT more work for yourself.

      Its possible he had good reasons that didn't make it into the article. No idea what they could possibly be, but ...

      The real value of a wiki or form collection website, is building vocabulary and knowledge BEFORE meeting with the pros. It is possible the original poster had never heard of anything but a S-Corp, therefore he walks in saying he's getting an S-Corp, end of story. A glance at a "forms collection" for an LLC vs an S-Corp could have been very educational...

      Professional meetings are much more productive when you can evaluate the professionals advice and actions. If you can't, then don't waste time meeting, just hand them barrels of money and hope they do the right thing for you, which is not exactly a recipe for business success.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  9. Pay for it by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 5, Informative

    You can get quickbooks from intuit for around $200 that will provide a lot of that. I also use a payroll company for $40/month to handle all the taxes and filings for payroll.

    The issues here are legal, not technical, and you *need* to have legally competent people backing the products that you use in these domains. Also, tax law changes on an annual basis. Intuit has a team of lawyers helping them stay abreast, as does my payroll company. You do not want to end up in front of the IRS (or worse, tax court) and not have a leg to stand on.

    I hate to say it, but it costs money to be in business. I just saw statistics a few days ago that 1/4 of payroll tax forms (941s) are erroneous, with the average cost being $670. Do the math. It's cheaper to pay the pros up front. I could go on and on, but, take it from me. I've paid plenty due to stupidity over the years. It's cheaper to put the right professionals in place to support you in your non-core tasks in the same way that people have put *you* in place to support them in their non-core tasks.

  10. TaxCut by Migraineman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I realize that I may incite a religious war between the TaxCut camp and the TurboTax camp, but using a $75 piece of professional software seems like a good investment. Either would probably do, though I've used TaxCut for most of a decade for my LLC, and it walks you through the business filings pretty decently.

    I'll presume that you chose an S-Corp for a reason, and won't badger you about using an LLC for a two-man shop. I will strongly recommend that you go over to irs.gov and read up on the S-Corp rules. There are a bunch of very helpful publications, and the IRS has gotten much more customer-oriented over the years.

  11. Re:Wine by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Informative

    There's lots of web-based stuff too, which is increasingly being offered as a part of a package with other services. Payroll processors are common, for example: they handle paying your employees (check or direct deposit), and as part of the deal withhold payroll taxes and applicable income taxes, send out W-2s to the employees, send the appropriate filings to the IRS, and keep the appropriate records. It's not just the software, but the fact that they also handle things like doing the direct deposit, which otherwise you'd need to set up and keep maintained.

    I'm usually a fan of doing things yourself, but for $300-600/yr for a small company for services like those, I would probably just let them handle it, because the fixed costs for dealing with payroll for only a handful of employees are too high.

    (I have in mind stuff like Intuit Online Payroll and SurePayroll.)

  12. Nolo books at the library by vlm · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've scoured the web for free/open source legal templates for hiring contractors, issuing W-2s, keeping shareholder minute meetings, etc, but haven't been able to find any decent sources.

    Little do you know, you are looking for the "Nolo" series of books at your local library, you know, the library, the place where homeless people go for internet access... Your local library, unless its total ghetto, probably has the entire nolo series available to read and/or borrow.

    Nolo has a website with a lot of marketing, yet also some information, at:

    http://www.nolo.com/

    Your best strategy is to skim thru, maybe even check out, the books that look interesting at the library, then purchase the most recent version from nolo for daily use.

    I think, based on your description, you want their book "Legal Forms for Starting & Running a Small Business"

    I have absolutely no connection to Nolo other than reading their educational books at the library when I was a kid, convinced me that the profession of lawyer-ing or whatever was not quite as interesting as it appeared on TV.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  13. Hire a professional. by deviator · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've had my business for about nine years - and we do lots and lots of IT management & consulting.

    Regardless of how small your business is you need to hire a competent accountant. Free forms are no substitute for education and experience in this field, and you can seriously screw yourself over (legally *or* financially) if you don't know what you're doing. I use the services of a contracted attorney, a contracted general business accountant, a contracted bookkeeper and a contracted federal tax accountant. And I've only got three people on our full time payroll.

    Relying solely on free forms is similar to saying, "This free Linux CD will handle all of my company's data processing, storage, management, security & protection needs by itself. We won't need any IT staff at all!"