Groklaw Putting Comes v. Microsoft Docs Online

An anonymous reader writes "PJ of Groklaw is working on putting the documents from Comes v. Microsoft online, to make them searchable and accessible to everyone. If you don't remember their history, the plaintiffs got these documents from Microsoft during discovery after fighting the lawyers tooth and nail. After realizing how embarrassing the documents were to Microsoft, they put them online and later got a very large settlement from Microsoft by agreeing to take their website down. The web being what it is, these documents had already been mirrored and were later (legally) made available on the Pirate Bay. Now Groklaw has put them online and is looking for people to help transcribe them, so that documents like the infamous Evangelism is War presentation will not be forgotten."

Comments

Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[causality]

After realizing how embarrassing the documents were to Microsoft, they put them online and later got a very large settlement from Microsoft by agreeing to take their website down.

I'm quite grateful for the Streisand Effect. If not for that, then normally someone who sells out or is (legally) bribed like this removes everyone's access to such information. Too bad those people caved, but that need not cost us the ability to know what they wanted so badly to hide.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[Anonymous Coward]

GNAA REBORN UNDER NEW LEADERSHIP

DiKKy Heartiez - Berlin, Norway

President timecop of the GNAA has died today. He died at the age of 55 from excessive lulz in his apartment in Tokyo, Japan while watching faggot cartoons of preteen girls beeing raped by giant testicles. The world will remember him as a total faggot douchebag who had the opportunity to unite the best trolls seen upon the face of the internet into one special hardcore machine of destruction, unfortunately he failed, instead devoting his internet carreer to animu. Although he died like a true hero he will be forever remembered as a total failure.

In the wake of his death the GNAA is thought to perish like all the other so called trolling organizations. The writing is on the wall, they say. The GNAA smells worse than BSD, they say.They have said this for a long time. The GNAA has lived, with a very faint pulse, for years.

DIKKY HEARTIEZ CLAIMS THE PRESIDENCY OF THE GNAA!!!!!!!

With the death of timecop still shocking our chats, not many are able to see ahead. But there is one visionary Nord who has great plans for the new GNAA.
"Under my leadership the GNAA will become the new home of all trolls on the internet. The GNAA will regain its old strength and will be feared by bloggers and jews alike. The time for CHANGE is now." DiKky HearTiez told a shocked audience outside the Gary Niger Memorial Plaza, Nigeria, earlier today. The GNAA will move its Internet Relayed Communications to a new location, following reports of a massive "Distributed Denial Of Service" attack on its previous location, making it unreliable.
"Our operatives are in need of a robust and safe communications service with can_flood for everyone." An anonymous source at the GNAA Black Ops department told reporters at the same conference.

KLULZ supports DiKKy Heartiez presidency!

The infamous KLULZ internet radio station supports DiKKy Heartiez for the new GNAA president.
"KLULZ is behind him 100% and will be broadcasting his speeches and support him in every way possible, we wish him the best of luck and an outstanding presidency. May many blogs burn under DiKky Hearties." This was stated by KLULZ Operations Manager and Gay Nigger g0sp when asked to comment on KLULZ involvement.

About President timecop

DEAD.

About DiKKy HearTiez

The world famous internet nord from Norway LOL HY living in a fjord LOL HY. Currently the new President of the new GNAA. He is also a radiodj on KLULZ and active in many irc chats. Known for several epic trolls in his time. Led the GNAA operation Intel Crapflood 21, who succesfully made GNAA owners of the biggest thread on Slashdot until fixed by admins. Also deeply involved in the war on blogs, and is the one who provided JesuitX with the real screenshots of Faggintosh Leopard. His leadership abilities, high iq and instoppable urge to troll, coupled with his fat Norwegian welfare check will enable him to become the best President the GNAA ever had.

About KLULZ

KLULZ is the internets radio station, bringing you news about the GNAA, hosting shows by prominent djs such as DiKKy, l0de, g0sp, jenk and many others. KLULZ supports DiKKy Heartiez. With mature content this channel is not suitable for children or people under the age of 18. Klulz radio can be heard at http://klulz.com/listen.pls

About GNAA:

GNAA (GAY NIGGER ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA) is the first
organization which gathers GAY NIGGERS from all over America and abroad for one
common goal - being GAY NIGGERS.

Are you GAY ?

Are you a NIGGER ?

Are you a GAY NIGGER ?

If you answered "Yes" to all of the above questions, then GNAA (GAY NIGGER
ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA) might be exactly what you've been loo

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[couchslug]

"Too bad those people caved, but that need not cost us the ability to know what they wanted so badly to hide."

Note to potential "cavers":
You can certainly sanitize the information you plan to agree to keep secret, give it to reliable third parties, then take the money.

It isn't honest, but there is no reason to be honest with your enemies. We are past the point of moral obligation to such people.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[Wiseblood1]

klulz is fucking terrible. like the world needs another shitty web stream of monotonous stereotypical euro trash trance/techno. I wouldnt listen to that shit even if I was drunk. Terrible internet radio is fucking terrible.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[Suki I]

"Too bad those people caved, but that need not cost us the ability to know what they wanted so badly to hide."

Note to potential "cavers": You can certainly sanitize the information you plan to agree to keep secret, give it to reliable third parties, then take the money.

It isn't honest, but there is no reason to be honest with your enemies. We are past the point of moral obligation to such people.

Doesn't look like they turned it over to anybody. It was mirrored by others and Microsoft made a bad deal. Someone on their team should have known this could happen and advised, like the OP mentions, to ignore it rather than drawing more attention.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[causality]

"Too bad those people caved, but that need not cost us the ability to know what they wanted so badly to hide."

Note to potential "cavers": You can certainly sanitize the information you plan to agree to keep secret, give it to reliable third parties, then take the money.

It isn't honest, but there is no reason to be honest with your enemies. We are past the point of moral obligation to such people.

I don't know why you were modded Troll because what you say is strategically correct. As Sun Tzu advised, all warfare (physical or PR) is based on deception. The use of deception against an aggressor whom you have done nothing to provoke is the only legitimate, morally correct usage of it that I recognize. Whether this case fits that description is the only debatable point.

Having said that, if you sign a contract stating that you will not disclose information, and you disclose that information, then it's not just dishonest; it's also illegal (or at least, a tort). This is unwise, especially when Microsoft can afford the best lawyers and you cannot. There are times when you have concerns other than how much you can justify without violating your morality, and this is probably one of them. For that reason, I'd strongly advise against actually doing this, making this a bad example of the otherwise sound concepts you mention.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[shentino]

Caved?

Microsoft got blackmailed here, since THEY were the ones to cough up the money. At least according to TFS.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[selven]

Good old Streisand effect. I just downloaded a copy of the evangelism presentation (oh noes, did I infringe MS's copyright?) and read through it. For some reason, learning that something is censored makes me take a lot of effort to find it and read through it carefully, much more than if nothing happened to it. It's probably partly "if it gets censored, it must be interesting" and partly sticking it to the man. Doesn't matter, whatever gets uploaded is out there and will be forever out there and there's nothing anyone can do to stop that.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[RichardJenkins]

The Streisand Effect is just an observation that cover-ups make for great gossip, and that gossip can spread rapidly over the Internet, so that the fact that a well known person (or entity) tries to suppress the dissemination of information can achieve greater circulation amongst the population than the information itself would have.

I doubt the terms of the settlement actually did anything to further the spread of these documents, so there is not need to mention the so-called 'Streisand Effect'. Again.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[Zero__Kelvin]

"I don't know why you were modded Troll because what you say is strategically correct."

If I didn't read your Slashdot User# I would think you were new to Slashdot

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[ozmanjusri]

Good old Streisand effect.

It's not just the Streisand effect. There have been a lot of people involved in Microsoft's dirty tricks campaigns over the years and now that the company's on a downhill slide, many of them are looking at their past roles with a bit of regret. The whole dirty house of cards isn't far from tumbling down.

Even James Plamendon, who created Microsoft's Evangelism program, authored that evangelism presentation and is responsible for much of Microsoft's brutal MSOOXML campaign has recanted. He's stated that he regrets his actions and is writing a book about it.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[causality]

"I don't know why you were modded Troll because what you say is strategically correct."

If I didn't read your Slashdot User# I would think you were new to Slashdot

In the technical sense, I can think of several reasons for it that are all plausible explanations. None of them speak favorably of that moderator. Since there are multiple possible explanations, I can accurately say I don't know which was the motivation. That's not the same thing as being unable to understand how such things happen. If I had to guess, I'd say it's because people assume that anything they don't like must be trolling or an instance of flamebait, but that's just a guess. I don't claim to know the mind of that moderator and people don't always have rational reasons for their behavior that are so easy to explain.

So, I brought it up without trying to explain it. The point of that was to write from the perspective that understands why it's silly and absurd. It would not occur to that perspective that he was trolling. I think that's what the moderation system could use a little more of.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[MightyMartian]

Even James Plamendon, who created Microsoft's Evangelism program, authored that evangelism presentation and is responsible for much of Microsoft's brutal MSOOXML campaign has recanted. He's stated that he regrets his actions and is writing a book about it.

Yes, I'm sure he's been wringing his hands all the way to the bank.

A fit of ethics doesn't do much good after the fact, particularly from someone who profited so mightily from it all.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[Mathinker]

> This is unwise, especially when Microsoft can afford the best lawyers and you cannot.

The injustice caused by the imbalance of economic power and the fact that the current legal system amplifies such imbalances (because of the high cost of defending oneself) only emphasizes the GP's point.

> There are times when you have concerns other than how much you can justify without violating your morality

Depending on the volume of information involved, it might be trivial to use Tor to reveal it without being exposed to significant risk (assuming that the information is not interesting to the NSA and its ilk). OTOH, it is idiotic to reveal information for which there is even a tenuous legal argument that you, and only you, could have revealed it.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[X0563511]

Don't mind causality, he's all 6's and 7's.

oh, I made a funny!

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[ultranova]

It isn't honest, but there is no reason to be honest with your enemies. We are past the point of moral obligation to such people.

Are you saying they're Fair Game? Nice role models you have there.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[Anonymous Coward]

Good old Streisand effect. I just downloaded a copy of the evangelism presentation (oh noes, did I infringe MS's copyright?) and read through it. For some reason, learning that something is censored makes me take a lot of effort to find it and read through it carefully, much more than if nothing happened to it. It's probably partly "if it gets censored, it must be interesting" and partly sticking it to the man. Doesn't matter, whatever gets uploaded is out there and will be forever out there and there's nothing anyone can do to stop that.

Does this extent to learning new languages? US adaptions of books (would be wrong to call them translations) and movies are generally very censored by the publishers and producers. The original books and movies usually deal with matters that are complitely removed from the US adaption (the main excuse is to make the books/movies simpler to read/view with less diversions, because every American publisher seem to think of their readers/viewers as stupid and easily distracted), usually the main themes of the books and movies are altered too. And to make it even worse, the original movies are generally much better made and with good actors, while the americanised movies use subpar, but famous, US actors and directors.

If the original movie is distributed in US, than large parts of the movie is usually censored. Sometimes for no obvius reason. From resent experience I could give as an example the hilarously funny Swedish movie "Picassos Adventures" were the sketch that make fun of American Gangster movies (and American English, the movie is fully made in fake languages that make fun of the original languages) are removed. Speaking about Swedish made things: large parts of Pippi Longstocking in the Americanised version is censored or rewritten because it would make children behave unruly. Way to go with a book which main theme is about questioning and stand up against unfair authorities.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[Fred_A]

It might not have done anything to further their propagation (although the fact that MS paid to have them removed at least indicated that they might have been worth a look), but I still find it very puzzling that in this day and age, someone actually thought "oh noes, our sekret filez are on the intarweb, I'll just pay to have them removed" (duh). Maybe he was from sales, or marketing.

Removing stuff that's on the network works fine for the media publishers after all, so Microsoft shouldn't have any problems doing it.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[innerweb]

Way to go with a book which main theme is about questioning and stand up against unfair authorities.

Hmm. Maybe it is because the very gate keepers are uncomfortable with material that talks about not falling in line. After all, they are a very powerful controlling interest in our society. I doubt they welcome any kind of real rebellion against authority, as their authority is very profitable for them.

Or, maybe it is because the two fringes of American society (far right and far left) both have agendas to keep certain behavioral examples out of the minds of Americans. Both rally at think of the children and anything about government and religion, yet seem to have almost opposite opinions of what if fair and right!

Whatever the reason, being mono-lingual is definitely a handicap in this world. The more US citizens become multilingual (not just bi-lingual), the harder it is for censors to control what they can learn, see and think, as they have to control more sources and more *inputs*.

As an aside, is not almost all authority unfair? The very definition of authority(*1) throws fair to the side. Only the individual/group with authority can try to inject fairness into whatever actions may be administered. Yet, as there are normally at least two sides to anything requiring an authority to manage, and most authority is derived from power to maintain things in the status quo or gather more power to the individuals in power, at least one side always feels unfairly dealt with, hence authority is innately unfair. Probably why most people do not *like* politicians, managers or other powerful people, even the good ones.

• *1 http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/authority

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the lovely thing about the Internet. You can get the money, take them down, and they'll be up somewhere else a few weeks later. Best of all, you can claim plausible deniability. There's no violation of the agreement - you were paid to take them off of your site and you did.

Even if they were only on a local computer/disk/etc., you can claim they were stolen/hacked/whatever due to falty security policies. If you were interested enough you could even engineer such a caper.

Re:Thankful for the Streisand Effect

[creeront]

Violating an NDA is a breach of contract, not a tort. Torts provide remedies for civil wrongs not arising out of contract.

Unbiased this will not be.

[Anonymous Coward]

Rest assured that any information that isn't negative to Microsoft will be posted last if at all. GL/PJ isn't exactly know for being an unbiased source - she will say/do anything to keep the hits/money coming in.

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[KiloByte]

Rest assured that any information that isn't negative to Microsoft will be posted last if at all.

Microsoft already does all they can to trumpet everything that goes to their favour, there's no need to repeat these pieces.

GL/PJ isn't exactly know for being an unbiased source - she will say/do anything to keep the hits/money coming in.

This is a war, and the other side fights hard for themselves. We're not supposed to help them.

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[causality]

Rest assured that any information that isn't negative to Microsoft will be posted last if at all. GL/PJ isn't exactly know for being an unbiased source - she will say/do anything to keep the hits/money coming in.

That's a great balance against the marketing and PR that Microsoft spends a great deal of money producing. All of their marketing and PR is completely biased, of course. It would be reasonable to complain about GL being biased the moment Microsoft's marketing fully discloses, with equal emphasis and prominence, all disadvantages and downsides of all of their products in addition to their advantages and benefits. Until then, such a balance that PJ is providing is a welcome and useful thing.

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[mevets]

I somewhat doubt microsoft fought and bribed to suppress anything complimentary. I like the way you smear PJ, btw. Wouldn't PJ's best source of income be getting a microsoft bribe to keep the records obscure?

Being a shill is bad enough, but is anybody even paying you to post this shit, or is this some sort of public service? Groglaw is also a sort of public service, but somehow they have credibility.

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[couchslug]

If you don't like Groklaw, debunk what is presented there.

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[kesuki]

"This is a war, and the other side fights hard for themselves. We're not supposed to help them."

this is more than a war, its a way of life. on the microsoft side are the baby boomers cars and elecricity for all and tons of crappy junk. on the other side is a hope that community can hold eachother together so that there is food and sustainability. community broke down when the so called atomic age allowed most americans to live outside of poverty, with cars and suburbs. community is everything, it is the only way forward. i thought for a long time that technology could make me happy, the endorphines of gaming, the pride of having good karma in online chat like slashdot. i like most americans ignored where the money tree was being shaken to make capitalism create illusionary money, as if with no drawbacks. now i see things differently it is sad to me to think on the past. yet i still am addicted to glowing screens, even though they allow me to ignore the people actually trying to help me find my future.

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[Anonymous Coward]

www.livejournal.com

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[Anonymous Coward]

Rest assured that any information that isn't negative to Microsoft will be posted last if at all.

Don't be silly. Anything not negative to Microsoft has long since been made public by MS's own flacks.

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[MightyMartian]

I think PJ has got a pretty thick skin, particularly after the SCO scamsters went after her with everything they had. Some retarded little puke shilling for Microsft ain't a speck of shit on the floor compared to the unholy trinity of Lyons, Enderle and O'Gara. It's like comparing some Nigerian scammer to Bernie Madoff.

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[Anonymous Coward]

> the unholy trinity of Lyons, Enderle and O'Gara

For the causual reader, these are old school IT media types that write for third-rate Web 1.0 sites that nobody in the world knows or cares about except for Groklaw posters.

Also, PJ does not at all have a thick skin. She once implied that SCO was going to "suicide" her, and she honestly believes the most juvenile trolls on her site were hired by Microsoft. Most likely she's got a touch of paranoid schizophrenia.

(Predicted reply: "Steve Ballmer is that you. LOLOLOLOL. I have asperber's syndrome and post on Groklaw!")

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[Zontar The Mindless]

Maureeen O'Gara, is that you?

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[phands]

Unbiased you are not. Clearly you don't understand what Groklaw is all about, and why stuff like this *MUST* be made public. Groklaw has credibility because it posts truths, uncomfortable or not, and keeps all the shenanigans public. No wonder the malodorous M$ hate it, as does the crew behind the SCO$cam extortion attempt.

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[Fred_A]

GL/PJ isn't exactly know for being an unbiased source

As opposed to the "unbiased" generic computing press I suppose ?

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[MightyMartian]

She had O'Gara stalking her, for fuck's sake. I don't know whether you're a shill or not, but you are a worthless asshole.

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[Anonymous Coward]

Give it a rest, Twitter.

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[innerweb]

Next up, a twitter account proclaims water is wet and another mighty ACer proclaims TWITTER!

Re:Unbiased this will not be.

[dwiget001]

Rob Enderle, please stand up!

He is such an obnoxious twit.

online communications

[Presto Vivace]

is going to be a whole speciality within litigation PR.

Re:online communications

[Anonymous Coward]

is going to be a whole speciality within litigation PR.

You're a few years late to the party. There have long been law outfits who do nothing else for a client.

Not that bad really

[clarkkent09]

If you read the whole document the bit about stacking "independent" panels and getting favorable "news" stories is the only truly unethical part and even that is regularly done by a lot of companies including Apple in particular. it's just good agressive competition. Or maybe I worked for Oracle for too long :)

Re:Not that bad really

[jthill]

The Judge granted Plaintiffs authority to personally watchdog Microsoft.

The watchdogs are granted, first among other things,

1. Access during normal office hours to inspect any and all source code, books, ledgers, accounts, correspondence, memoranda and other documents and records in the possession, custody, or control of Microsoft

"The whole document" is the evidence that got the Judge to do that.

Thousands of pages. Gigabytes of video.

Somehow, I think the Judge's response to that evidence is a bit ... harsher ... than your description would support.

Hmm. Whose assessment of the evidence should I rely on? Hmm. Hmmm.

I'm going with the newly-signed-up /. poster who read the whole case and weighed all the evidence in a case that took six months to present, overnight. I mean, speed-reading skills like that command respect.

Re:Not that bad really

[clarkkent09]

Ok I meant the linked "infamous" document, obviously not the entire case

Re:Not that bad really

[aynoknman]

Or maybe I worked for Oracle for too long :)

Working for Oracle for any non-zero length of time is too long

Re:Not that bad really

[MightyMartian]

What precisely is healthy about stacking panels and planting stories? I think you've been working for Satan too long.

Re:Not that bad really

[rbanffy]

You know, of course, good aggressive competition is illegal when you use it to extend one monopoly into others.

Talking to one of those who worked on the case...

[pcraven]

I had one of the people working on the case come talk to my college class. The documents provided to the law office were on paper. The office had an impressive cluster of computers used to do optical code recognition on all the documents so that they could be indexed and searched. There were tons of documents. It was not easy technically, and they worked a lot of hours.

The person I talked to always hoped someone would take this on. They couldn't give up their work for public domain, but there was a ton of computer history contained in those files.

Where did this whole GNAA thing come from?

[gbutler69]

And why? What's the point? Who has time for this crap? What are you hoping to accomplish by this?

Re:Where did this whole GNAA thing come from?

[Ethanol-fueled]

More importantly, I'm going to fuck my ex-girlfriend tonight. The entire hotel room is going to be tackified with pecker-snot and vaginal secretions.

Re:Where did this whole GNAA thing come from?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a red herring marketing technique.

The intention is to deflect discussion from Microsoft's evil practices and make it easier for their astroturfers and apologists to do their work.

Re:Where did this whole GNAA thing come from?

[X0563511]

Define: Internet Troll

There is no "point" that any sane person would accept.

Now, the history behind it is not something I am familiar with, however.

B.b.b..but, M$....

[Anonymous Coward]

I found the quote in their documentation very telling:

"No one is forced to adopt our standards at the barrel of a gun. We can only convince, not compel. Those who adopt our standards do so as a rational decision to serve their own ends, whatever those may be."

But...from everything I read here at /. M$ does nothing but put guns to the heads of peoples children and forces them to run their software!

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[jthill]

When you get out of grammar school they'll teach you about reasoning in a little more detail, but for now, what you did there is called a "false dichotomy", arguing from the premise that only two alternatives are possible.

It works very well to trap the unwary, because the dishonest part is unspoken.

If this post is making you angry, perhaps you'd like to put more effort into detecting false premises in your own.

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[causality]

When you get out of grammar school they'll teach you about reasoning in a little more detail

No, they won't. It sure would be nice, though.

If the (government-owned, government-operated) public schools actually taught logic, argumentation, and critical thinking, thoroughly and exhaustively, it would remove a lot of individuals and interests from power. Imagine if we never had any laws or policies except those that could stand up to rigorous examination. Imagine that clearly enough and you'll see why no one who could arrange that is inclined to let it happen.

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[Jedi Alec]

Imagine that clearly enough and you'll see why no one who could arrange that is inclined to let it happen.

Said no one who could arrange that being the electorate of your county/state/country?

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[causality]

Imagine that clearly enough and you'll see why no one who could arrange that is inclined to let it happen.

Said no one who could arrange that being the electorate of your county/state/country?

Right. The electorate who lack the critical thinking skills and knowledge of logical fallacies to understand what's wrong with the status quo are unlikely to demand leaders who institute policies that stand up to critical thinking and are free of logical fallacies. This suits our current leaders just fine. Those leaders are not stupid. They know how to play the game of politics to their advantage. They are aware of the situation and its implications, they know what's wrong with their laws and policies, but those serve the interests who got them into power so they are unwilling to change this system. It could only come from the electorate, which, as I already said, is ill-equipped to demand this sort of change. Did you fail to derive that from my previous post?

That's the danger of giving government direct control over education and the curriculum. I have no problem with the state governments using tax money to fund education, but the parents should be able to use that tax money to send the children to any school they like. I'd like to see something like the voucher system (the money follows the child instead of the child having to follow the money) and I'd also like to see government get out of the education business entirely other than providing the voucher. The reason we don't have vouchers is because the NEA is its biggest opponent and they have a ton of political clout that they have no reservations about using. It's not because vouchers are an unsound idea or are logically flawed. Refer to my previous point for how we arrived at this situation.

I don't like it and I don't delight in pointing it out, but most people are passive sheep. If the schooling they received does not teach them logic, argumentation, and critical thinking, then they won't learn those things. They could find books, Web sites, and other resources and teach themselves, for only basic literacy is required, but they won't because it doesn't occur to them that they should. Only a tiny minority of people would ever take that sort of initiative. So the reality is, if the schools don't teach these things, then the number of people who retain this knowledge are going to be such a tiny minority that politicians can safely ignore them in any election. I hope this explains why we have the current situation and why it's unlikely to change anytime soon.

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[Anonymous Coward]

When you get out of grammar school they'll teach you about reasoning in a little more detail, but for now, what you did there is called a "false dichotomy", arguing from the premise that only two alternatives are possible.

It works very well to trap the unwary, because the dishonest part is unspoken.

If this post is making you angry, perhaps you'd like to put more effort into detecting false premises in your own.

I find your post most amusing given the twists of logic most posters to Slashdat are prone to take in order to make the story fit their world view.

But please, by all means, snark on the text rather than the meaning. Your waste of space is well appreciated.

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[amiga3D]

DAMN! no mod points!!! You sir deserve +5 Brilliant

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[Com2Kid]

If the (government-owned, government-operated) public schools actually taught logic, argumentation, and critical thinking, thoroughly and exhaustively, it would remove a lot of individuals and interests from power.

Those of us who actually paid attention in school DID learn those skills. Can't say the same for students who had their heads up their asses thinking they were better than everyone else though...

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[dbIII]

It would also cost money, so you don't really need a conspiracy. That is why there was the "ebonics" scandal under Reagan (not enough money to teach english so it was pretended that some sort of pidgin was good enough) and that is why the US education all the way to the undergraduate level has slipped behind most of the rest of the world.
You got your low tax states y'all so now you've got an education level to match it. There's still the high achievers from Texas but they'll get as rare as high achievers from Nigeria. I've met people from both places that look like they are on the road to a Nobel prize, but because both places don't fund education well the average students are handicapped when dealing with modern society.

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[jthill]

You know, there was a time when the American public education system was a wonder of the world.

Nations sent their best and brightest to be educated at public universities here, and those public universities got their pick of students from all over the world, and among the best were those educated at our public high schools.

Because our educational institutions, public and private, taught students to _think_.

Feynmann described the faults in other nations' educational systems this way, in "Surely You're Joking":

After the lecture, I talked to a student: "You take all those notes -- what do you do with them?"

"Oh, we study them," he says. "We'll have an exam."

That now describes our own grammar and high schools.

Perhaps you didn't know that it wasn't always that way, that the government you blame for poor public education produced the finest public education system in the history of the world.

Perhaps you also didn't know that that government (which many take as an article of faith to be incompetent at everything) also built the finest military in the history of the world?

And that it also built the finest public highway system in the history of the world?

And the finest public water supply in the history of the world?

And, if we start from the premise that government policy can have a major or even dominant effect on the health of an economy, that it built the most powerfuul economy in the history of the world?

If we don't admit that last premise, then why argue about tax rates at all?

Because during the era of all those roaring successes, the top marginal tax rate was up around ninety percent.

And that little paean to the things government is good at, is meant for, does right when supplied with faith and loyalty, relegates to the b-list other, more minor achievements.

Like taking humanity to the moon.

Like "the most unsordid act in history".

I could go on, of course, and on.

But the point remains: our government, its principles, its premise, its creed, is what made this nation great. Its constitution defines America.

So when you sneer at it, perhaps you'd like to consider the question of why you hate it so.

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[Anonymous Coward]

Those of us who actually paid attention in school DID learn those skills. Can't say the same for students who had their heads up their asses thinking they were better than everyone else though...

At my school those things required extra curricular activity. I'd be interested if you could point out a public school textbook that contains the word "syllogism". I had a semi-reasonable grasp of logic due to doing advanced math classes but only very few will apply those concepts to speech. I was reviled by teachers, school administrators and my parents alike for doing so.

Apply logic to the words of others and you will be widely hated. Of course, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, the voucher systems where I'm from are just used to prop up charter schools, which are only businesses in disguise. Charter schools have only the responsibilities they choose to have (in their charter - most, if not all, have some form of "do better than public schools" included - and consistently fail to meet them), can pick and choose which students to let in (there are black and hispanic charter schools where I live - hooray for integration, right?) which is something that public schools can't do (which lowers the perceived - averaged - test scores of students that go to pubic schools because they have more idiot students that don't make it into charter schools), they don't have to have teachers with any form of teaching degrees or background checks (charter schools in my area started instituting background checks after a few sexual harassment and worse complaints) which allows charter schools to hire anybody they like (which includes religious "christian" nutjobs teaching about how evolution is completely wrong and the only way the universe could exist is if god held it together with his mighty awesomeness).

It gets worse than this, because people are paid to open charter schools, but not run them. The state regulatory board is required to have only people who own charter schools on its panels. The people who start charter schools are given state education money - that would normally go to the public school district - to build the buildings, but then get to keep the buildings after a few years, which amounts to a state handout.

And to put a slightly ironic twist on everything, my city has a $300 million deficit, and after a referendum (isn't TABOR great?) didn't pass to raise taxes, the city decided to fire 30 police and firefighters, stop watering the grass at almost all city parks, and stop plowing snow some of the city roads, leading to increased accidents.

Vouchers and charter schools amount to nothing more than an attempt to break the NEA and the public education system as we know it. I lean slightly conservative, but libertarianism is just as bad as any other ideology in it's pure form.

And, to give you an idea of where I'm at: Doug Bruce may be the biggest douchebag in the town, and possibly the state.

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess Nigeria has a "US Top 50" ranked University with 50,000 students similar to UT. If I recall correctly, Texas spends a few thousand dollars less per pupil than the national average. Of course, the cost of living in the States that spend the most is much higher than the national average, especially Texas. So, that helps offset some of the difference. But yes, Texas is a bit behind the 8-ball on [public] education spending. Perhaps those of you from more enlightened States could come help me use this here iPhone thing-a-doddle that I need to "deal with modern society", as you put it. That, or perhaps I could ask someone at the AT&T world headquarters building in downtown Dallas, TX.

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[dbIII]

I think the real problem is that after Reagan they are all giving you a "low tax state" standard of education - not just Texas that seemed to be proud of it back in the day which is why I chose it as the example along with California's "ebonics".
I've got a bad feeling that the above was read as "blah blah Texas blah blah Nigeria" and suggest you read that sentence again, you've responded as if I'd written something completely different to what is there.
The USA has some of the best postgraduate education but has been steadily slipping far behind the rest of the world in other areas. It really is leaving people unfit to deal with modern society and setting them up to be taken in by various scams, cults and corrupt politicians. Education is a major part of a useful bullshit detector.

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently you didn't learn how to end sentences though you arrogant little dickless sack of shit prick.

Re:B.b.b..but, M$....

[cyber-vandal]

You are assuming that: a) everyone is capable of complex critical thinking; and b) that incompetent politicos could arrange would be able to stop all teachers from teaching such things; and c) that people can't learn those things themselves.

Groklaw Putting Comes v. Microsoft Docs Online

[omar.sahal]

Our mission is to establish Microsoft's platforms as the de facto standards throughout the computer industry. Our enemies are the vendors of platforms that compete with ours: Netscape, Sun, IBM, Oracle, Lotus, etc. The field of battle is the software industry. Success is measured in shipping applications. Every line of code that is written to our standards is a small victory; every line of code that is written to any other standard, is a small defeat. Total victory, for DRG, is the universal adoption of our standards by developers, as this is an important step towards total victory for Microsoft itself: "A computer on every desk and in every home, running Microsoft software."

This is why I wish the internet would become a development platform for application (GUI driven in this case). If this was the case the platform wars (to borrow Microsoft terminology) would be over and developers would code for the internet. Google, with chrome os etc, seems to be an ally in this, not that they are benevolent benefactors, just that their business aims and the open source community desires align.
What would it take to code in any number of languages (in the way we can now code in javascript) for the web.

Re:Groklaw Putting Comes v. Microsoft Docs Online

[Mikkeles]

Right, just what I want: aircraft flight control systems as PHP code on the internet.

Re:Groklaw Putting Comes v. Microsoft Docs Online

[Anonymous Coward]

"Every line of code that is written to our standards is a small victory; every line of code that is written to any other standard, is a small defeat. Total victory, for DRG, is the universal adoption of our standards by developers, as this is an important step towards total victory for Microsoft itself: "A computer on every desk and in every home, running Microsoft software.""

I see now why Miguel de Microsoft and Mono exist now.... ...I wish I was kidding :(

Re:Groklaw Putting Comes v. Microsoft Docs Online

[dangitman]

If this was the case the platform wars (to borrow Microsoft terminology) would be over and developers would code for the internet.

And the resulting applications would suck. Developers should develop for the user. "The internet" is not a sentient being, not the end-user of software. So, why would humans want want software developed for the internet? We should want software developed for humans.

Re:Groklaw Putting Comes v. Microsoft Docs Online

[Anonymous Coward]

why not?

The Colossal Irony

[tjstork]

Is that right around the same time Microsoft started thinking about using its bulk and business practices to achieve marketing ends, is right around the same time its innovation, risk taking, and other admirable traits about the company slacked off. I mean, yeah, it might have been hurtful to Borland for Microsoft to buy the superior Fox and use it to crush dBase, but at least the market did get a better product. And it might have been wrong to use Windows money to fund the development of Visual Studio to propel it past Turbo C++, but, again, the consumer got a better product. Even IE4 was better than Netscape.

But this email is from 1997, when MS had won the OS wars, the browser wars, and since then, what has happened? MS has lost its focus on computing entirely. Folding the Windows NT core into the Windows 95 shell to get first Windows NT 4.0 and then Windows 2000 were the best things the company did, and since then, we've had really not much to write home about.

Re:The Colossal Irony

[darthflo]

In Microsoft's defense, they are not alone. Windows 2000 (and it's UI improvement XP) did deliver. They threw a rock-solid OS with acceptable performance out there, and satisfied everyone from businesses to gamers. The famous 20% of work to get 80% of the result were done. Delivering again is hard, because now customers expect to get 160% at the same price. That's how things like Vista and DNF happen.
But as I said, they are not alone. Apple had their 2000/XP moments with Puma and Jaguar. They handled their "Vista" better through a series of incremental updates, but outside of Jobs' RDF, few "revolutionary" changes happened. Linux is more difficult to mold into that schematic by its very nature. Different projects that integrate into one distribution release at different times. Limiting the view to single projects, the situation is once again similar: changes, chaos, revolutionary thoughts up to a stable release and a slower trickling of updates thereafter.
At one point in every project, the gorgeously fat fruits dragging their branches down to ideal picking heights have been picked (XP, Jaguar). Getting a ladder and going for the apples becomes a tad more exhaustive (7, Snow Leopard), and finally going for the cherries way up in the tree becomes even more work. In the end, they'll be picked, though, as there's no other way to get to that pretty release with a cherry on top. :)

Re:The Colossal Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, 2000 was before XP.

Re:The Colossal Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

when MS had won the OS wars, the browser wars, and since then, what has happened?

They've tried to retain territory. MS's focus was never on computing, it was on commerce. They have never been about making the best software for the market to chose, but rather to make the best software to control the market's choice. MS's focus hasn't been about computing any more than Germany's 1940 focus was about liberating Europe.

(Sorry about that. I just couldn't believe we got this far without enacting Godwin in this thread, so I had to.)

Re:The Colossal Irony

[russryan]

I'll take this to the next level. 15 years ago Microsoft engaged in business practices that were on the borderline (one side or the other) of being ethical. BillG took his 50 BILLION dollars of perhaps ill gotten gains and is now working to wipe out malaria and fund education throughout the 3rd world. Huzzah! In the end we all win.

Re:The Colossal Irony

[jvkjvk]

Linux is more difficult to mold into that schematic by its very nature. Different projects that integrate into one distribution release at different times.

I don't see why. Pick the set of component to look at the ones that are installed by default from the $distribution of your choice. Just pick what was available on the same date as the release of the Microsoft or Apple products.

That would be the comparable set of diffs you would want to look at. What happened in $version to $version+1 timeframe on linux?

This could be interesting, as each competitor would capture a different moment in time to diff.

Perhaps also, Linux could then be used as a sort of default yardstick for comparison of the strength of the others offering. hmm.

Regards.

Re:The Colossal Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, 2000 was before XP.

Uh, grandparent did not imply that it wasn't.

Bill Gates is sharing his fortune!

[ClosedSource]

Dear Friends,

Please do not take this for a junk letter. Bill Gates is sharing his fortune. If you ignore this you will repent later. In an effort to make sure that Internet Explorer 6 remains the most widely used browser, Microsoft is running an Shill beta test.

For the first favorable posting you make to Slashdot, Microsoft will pay you $245.00, for every second posting, Microsoft will pay you $243.00 and for every third posting, you will be paid $241.00. Within two weeks, Microsoft will contact you for your address and then send you a cheque.

Re:Bill Gates is sharing his fortune!

[selven]

HELLO, DEAR SIR

I AM A COMPUTER HACKER IN NIGERIA. I HAVE PROGRAMMED A BOTNET WITCH WILL MAKE PRO-MICROSOFT POSTS ON SLASHDOT AND GENERATE MONEY UP TO $9.5 MILLION DOLLARS. IF YOU GIVE ME AN ADVANCE FE OF $5000 DOLLAR I WILL SET UP THE BOTNET AND GIVE U 15% OF THE MONEY.

MAY RMS BE WITH YOU,

OKONWA NIAWA

Re:Bill Gates is sharing his fortune!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, most of the reputation management is done by call centre employees. They're "encouraged" to participate in online discussion sites while waiting or answering calls.

A lot of the techniques used by Microsoft are discussed here. Other TE sites (Google it) will give you plenty of insight about how opinions are being manipulated in online discussion.

It's not really secret, but discussion IS discouraged on target sites. Some of the methods used include "Poisoning the Well" - pre-emptively ridiculing postings which might raise unwanted issues, and "False Association" - falsely linking people who try to discuss online marketing to discredited groups like conspiracy theorists. .

Re:Talking to one of those who worked on the case.

[diegocg]

there was a ton of computer history contained in those files.

Indeed! There're many interesting bits in these emails that explain quite well some of the things we suffer every day.

"One things I find myself wondering about is whether we shouldn't try and make the "ACPI" extensions somehow Windows specific. It seems unfortunate if we do this work and get our partners to do the work and the result is that Linux works great without having to do the work. Maybe there is no way to avoid this problem but it does bother me. Maybe we could define the APIs so that they work well with NT and not the others even if they are open. Or maybe we could patent something related to this" - Bill Gates

"One thing we have got to change in our strategy - allowing Office documents to be rendered well by others people browser is one of the most destructive things we could do to the company. We have to stop putting any effort into this and make sure that Office documents very well depends on PROPIETARY IE capabilities" - Bill Gates

Well, no...

[tjstork]

If Google wins it would be far, far worse than anything Microsoft could do. It would mean that desktop computers would be hobbled based on a low level baseline of common functionality, that, applications would be subject to be found only based on what Google likes or dislike, and that users data will not even belong to them.

Re:Well, no...

[gbarules2999]

I think you see the Google Chrome OS as something Google is trying to use to take over every computer, which is certainly not true. Google wants to use it to create a new class of computer, a netbook that only does internet and nothing else. Your dystopian fantasy is just that - a fantasy, a slippery slope. As Gruber once stated (and I dislike Gruber so for me to quote him would be a stretch), sometimes you don't need two cars, you just need a car and a bicycle. Why do we have to assume that when a company releases a bicycle they're determined to kill and enslave everyone who owns a car?

Google cannot "win," because they are attacking a new type of device - an internet-only browsing device. Google would certainly like to knock Microsoft down a few pegs, but who doesn't these days?

Re:Well, no...

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on what you consider "Google wins" to be.

Although doubtful, since some software isn't going into the cloud (for now?) I can give you the issue of computers being dumbed down and how that can impact the costs for the minority that doesn't want one of those.

Regarding the rest, I don't understand your argument: Google strives for making sure users can get their data and move it away any time they like, and also strives for implementing open standards and publishing APIs fully (quite the opposite of the embrace and extend M$ is know for in the past). Do you care to explain so we get a better understanding of it, or are you just spreading FUD ?

Re:Well, no...

[tjstork]

I think you see the Google Chrome OS as something Google is trying to use to take over every computer, which is certainly not true. Google wants to use it to create a new class of computer, a netbook that only does internet and nothing else.

Well you miss the point. First off, the question was really, what would the world be like if Google dominated computing as much as Microsoft did, and therefor, my "dystopian fantasy" was a viable answer. Google's business model envisions everyone accessing their data on third party computers with dumb internet only appliances. Therefor, to be a host, you have to get Google's permission, and, consumers will never own their data. That's what this is.

Re:Well, no...

[tjstork]

Regarding the rest, I don't understand your argument: Google strives for making sure users can get their data and move it away any time they like, and also strives for implementing open standards and publishing APIs fully

These days, open API's are more complex than closed API's were in the past. To wit, there's way more complexity in an open XML format and all the ins and outs of representing a document than there was in figuring out some undocumented DOS call or learning about some undocumented register on a graphics card.

Re:Well, no...

[Anonymous Coward]

There's this FUD again. What would prevent you from being a host of data or not moving your data into the cloud ? What would prevent Amazon (or MicroSoft or your own company) to have their own competing (but compatible, unfortunately this seems to be a 1 way street for many) cloud implementation ? Why would you need Google's permission for implementing/using open standards or even stuff that was created by Google which isn't a standard per se but it's wide open to 3rd party implementation (lookup Wave protocol/API) ? Why wouldn't you be able to move your data freely and own it (lookup data liberation front) ?

Re:Well, no...

[Anonymous Coward]

And your answer means what, exactly ? Comparing apples to apples, do you believe it's easier to reverse engineer MS Word format (and do it flawlessly) than implement an open standard ? Or reverse engineer a DOS functionality than consult the man page in a Unix/Linux system and just do it ? If you do, I'll stop arguing with you, have a nice day. Otherwise I keep calling your initial argument FUD.

Re:Well, no...

[tjstork]

And your answer means what, exactly ? Comparing apples to apples, do you believe it's easier to reverse engineer MS Word format (and do it flawlessly) than implement an open standard ?

Well first off lets eject the phrase "do it flawlessly", because, that's probably impossible in both cases. Two of the most successful standards of software are C++ and HTML/CSS and we are just getting close to flawless implementations of those. When standards are forward thinking, and set a roadmap for vendors to implement, like how OpenGL used to be, then implementing standards can be a genuine bitch.

Now, with that said, I agree with you. If I had a choice between some sort of Open document format versus a binary Word format, the Open document would be much easier. But my point is, that, reverse engineering a closed file format from 10-20 years ago might actually be easier than dealing with a completely new open standard. The issue is really how many tasks one has to accomplish to complete and in the case of simple file formats, it might just be a matter of looking at a binary layout and figuring the record size.

As far as DOS reverse engineering vs man page for Unix Linux, it could actually depend and depend even more on what version of the Linux you are talking about and what you are trying to do. I'd bet that it would be easier for an assembly language to open up a full screen bitmapped display under DOS than it would be under Linux, or, oddly, figuring out how to copy a file might actually be easier under DOS because you don't have to worry about permissions, mounts and all the things that DOS can't actually do.

Now, as for my original argument, again, its not FUD, primarily because the openness of the API is but a cost saver and costs are still going to go up as applications and their data become more complex. If Google gives you a set of APIs to supposedly get your data out, you are going to have to make some sort of an investment as to figure out how to read and translate that stuff into a way that you can understand. It might take a week, or even a month, but even a week's wages would actually put you into the realm of just purchasing Microsoft Office. The cost of implementing even an Open API is so much more than just purchasing the application to use it, that, the lock in is not the openness of the API, its the cost to implement it. In essence, all open source really says is that APIs have gotten sufficiently complex that you don't need to have closed APIs to have vendor lock in.

And see now, that's actually where Google falls flat on its face compared to a PC office suite. Google could, because it hosts its apps, detect situations where the app might be being reverse engineered. It's pretty hard to script a web app compared to a COM app, anyway, simply. But if I had a Word instance, and a scripting language of my choice, I can generate scripts to create different kinds of documents in response to different features and see what it does, and there's not a damn thing MS can do about it, when the network cord is unplugged.

The bottom line is, just because an API is open, does not mean that you cannot be locked in. All it takes to be locked in is to make it expensive to switch, and a large and complex API, open or not, is sufficient to do that.

Re:Well, no...

[Floritard]

Is Google going to also put an end to the secondary storage industry? Just put your data on a thumbstick if you want something to hold in your hand.

Re:Well, no...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, downloading a zip file containing all your documents that you can read in, for instance, OpenOffice, and doing so in 1 click is really a complex API for you to figure out. Not to mention the fact that open APIs drive down costs and multiple implementations.

FUD.

Have a nice day.

Re:Well, no...

[tjstork]

Yes, downloading a zip file containing all your documents that you can read in, for instance, OpenOffice, and doing so in 1 click is really a complex API for you to figure out. Not to mention the fact that open APIs drive down costs and multiple implementation

do something with the big crap that you downloaded. And, you just admitted that the people are locked into openoffice. What's the big difference.

Why can't you fricking zealots ever tell the truth? Open source is just another kind of vendor lock in.

Re:Talking to one of those who worked on the case.

[Hal_Porter]

To be fair it's not like the other side go out of their way to make their 'standards' easy for Microsoft to implement.

Opposition is the only way

[tyroneking]

Surely the Evangeline* is War email is pure and simple evidence that they are evil and we should do everything in our power to oppose them. A company as big as that should be scrupulously decent and honest and try to avoid any embarrassment --- but apparently they no longer feel embarrassed about their own actions --- a bit like a friend of mine who gets high and then acts like a c**ck but really doesn't seem to feel ashamed of his own behaviour --- so he keeps on doing stupid things until I hit him. Facebook are the same; sometimes even Google.
In all cases, we-the-people need to beat them back into behaving decently.
Boycott Microsoft.
Also, boycott Novell (stfu Jono Bacon...)
And whilst I like Ubuntu and De Icaza, also boycott Gnome.
Not just at home on your crappy home PCs and laptops --- but in the office too.

(*we are all lost)

Re:Talking to one of those who worked on the case.

[Identifiable Coward]

I'm sorry - are you being ironic or taking the piss?

Embarrased?

[PPH]

After realizing how embarrassing the documents were to Microsoft

I find this hard to beleive. After all, they did release Vista.

It may have been a Slashdotter who mirrored it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Submitter here.

Yes, it was mirrored by others (thankfully people had the foresight to mirror this stuff right away). In fact, one person who had all the files asked what to do with them (either here or on Groklaw, I don't recall), and I was the one who suggested it be put on the Pirate Bay. I don't know for sure that he took my advice, but I do know that a Comes collection appeared there shortly thereafter.

Re:Talking to one of those who worked on the case.

[tom1974]

You're joking, right?

I'll take some of that action

[Anonymous Coward]

If there is a PDF of this, I would archive it (cook it to dvd) right away, and wouldn't mind putting it online too. Why have only one place where microsoft can be outed, when the web can be crawling with their joy.

Re:Talking to one of those who worked on the case.

[selven]

Can we have an example of an open format that Microsoft can't implement? And no, the GPL does not prevent a proprietary software maker from making a compatible application.

Show me.

[schon]

To be fair

.. that word.. I do not think it means what you think it means.

it's not like the other side go out of their way to make their 'standards' easy for Microsoft to implement.

Since "the other side" in this case are proponents of Open Source or Open Standards, please cite *one* case where an open standard was deliberately obstructing to MS.

Re:Show me.

[Xtifr]

please cite *one* case where an open standard was deliberately obstructing to MS.

Keep in mind who we're discussing here. When your goal is to leverage your monopoly -- to lock your customers in and your competitors out -- then open standards are deliberately obstructive! :)

Re:Show me.

[Arker]

Keep in mind who we're discussing here. When your goal is to leverage your monopoly -- to lock your customers in and your competitors out -- then open standards are deliberately obstructive! :)

Precisely!

More people need to understand this. It's clear MS does - but on our side most people still seem to be under the illusion that it is somehow possible to play fair and get along with MS. It isnt. It never was. From their point of view you are either helping them develop lock-in and total control of each and every PC in the world, or you are against them and they will stop at nothing to destroy you.

Re:Show me.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Since "the other side" in this case are proponents of Open Source or Open Standards, please cite *one* case where an open standard was deliberately obstructing to MS.

I can't think of any actual cases off the top of my head, but it would not be hard to do...

Get a software patent on an encoder or decoder that is gplv3 licensed. Never license the patent other than to the gplv3 source code. The only way MS could then implement software to work with the data format would be to use the gplv3 source code which would require that the entire application be gplv3'd.

Re:Show me.

[mevets]

While patents are clearly BS protectionism, what you describe is an extra layer of BS. Patents do not work that way at all. You can only patent a method, not an implementation. You cannot selectively license a patent (0|+inf). You are intentionally mixing ideas from copyright and patent to create bullshit.

If it "would not be hard to do...", please do. Otherwise, being shamed as a bullshitting shill will lose you your $241 bonus.

Re:Show me.

[Arker]

Actually, patents do work that way, which is why even "legitimate" patents obstruct progress.

Re:Show me.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Patents do not work that way at all.

Hello, McFly?

You cannot selectively license a patent (0|+inf).

What you talkin 'bout Willis?
Of course you can selectively license a patent, that's precisely the way they work.

If anyone here is mixing ideas from copyright and patents, it is you with your bullshit. The most well-known example being compulsory licensing of nondramatic musical works.

I see you got modded at least +1 informative based solely on your bluster, that moderator ought to be ashamed of his own ignorance.

Re:Show me.

[mwvdlee]

I don't think you can legally license a patent to only one party. AFAIK, you are legally obliged to allow any party to license the patent according to similar, reasonable terms.

Re:Show me.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

You think wrong.
Trying proving it to yourself.

Re:Show me.

[drinkypoo]

The only way MS could then implement software to work with the data format would be to use the gplv3 source code which would require that the entire application be gplv3'd.

Wrong, only the decoder need be GPLv3. An application is only required to be GPL'd if it has GPL dependencies; WiMP could continue to be closed-source, while the decoder went GPLv3, because WiMP still functions without the decoder. Nice try, though.

Re:Show me.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

An application is only required to be GPL'd if it has GPL dependencies;

Gee you sure glossed over the definition of 'dependencies' there. I bet it felt good.

Re:Show me.

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't think of any actual cases off the top of my head, but it would not be hard to do...

fail

Re:Talking to one of those who worked on the case.

[Zero__Kelvin]

"To be fair it's not like the other side go out of their way to make their 'standards' easy for Microsoft to implement."

Let's be fair and accurate. You totally mischaracterized Bill Gates' position. The email doesn't say lets not go out of our way to make the stuff easier for others to implement, it says we should go out of our way to make it so others cannot implement it . The two are completely different, and worlds apart.

Re:Talking to one of those who worked on the case.

[loteck]

"One thing we have got to change in our strategy - allowing Office documents to be rendered well by others people browser is one of the most destructive things we could do to the company. We have to stop putting any effort into this and make sure that Office documents very well depends on PROPIETARY IE capabilities" -Bill Gates

Music to Google's ears.

Re:Talking to one of those who worked on the case.

[nadaou]

neither- I think he's being a troll, but I don't have the mod points to confirm it.

Well, no...

[symbolset]

If Google wins then there will be available numerous facilities available in the Google cloud that are attractive alternatives to doing things the hard way, for every case where excellent cloud apps make sense.

Google's not trying to take your personal workstation away. If you want to host your own data and crunch your own numbers your way that's up to you. But if you don't, they want to be the easiest and best way to assemble and reference information online. I don't see that as a bad thing.

Sorry, no.

[symbolset]

This behaviour is in Microsoft's DNA from the first dealings with Gary Kildall to the current i4i debacle. It didn't mysteriously originate at the moment that Microsoft turned the corner from logarithmic growth to slow decline in January of 2000. For that radical course correction we need look no further than the appointment of Steve Ballmer to the helm on that day.

Obviously Ballmer isn't responsible for the culture that established these behaviours - he inherited that. We should just be thankful he's not as good at executing it.

Re:Sorry, no.

[ClosedSource]

Bill Gates recommended Gary Kildall's CP/M to IBM and Kildall was unable or unwilling to close the deal. Both MS and IBM were acting in good faith.
 

Re:Sorry, no.

[symbolset]

That's not how the record reads to me. About this we disagree.

Time, perspective.

[symbolset]

If you had enjoyed the benefit of playing with SVR2 through a 30" high def graphical terminal in 1984 as I did, Microsoft's "innovations" in Windows 2000 some 15 years later might seem a bit less amazing. In 1984 we had aerial photos on LaserDisc overlaid with terrain data that we could draw on, and real-time position data in a distributed database with mesh networking for geotracking important operational assets. You could take a bomb to all but one node in the system, and that last node would stay up and have the latest propagated data. Yes, it took three or four seconds to redraw when you shifted scale or moved the map, but it was 1984. We had csh, ksh, X-Windows with widgets that looked better than W2k's. Networking was assumed. It was a multiuser system with an evolved system of managing user security that persists to this day. This was about nine months after Microsoft had invented the remarkable "subdirectory" concept with DOS 2.0, and 14 years before they included an IP stack by default. </sarcasm>.

Back then it took about 12 minutes to draft a professional one page letter using a CPT dedicated word processing station with full-page WYSYWIG and a SCSI daisy wheel printer. Today you can do a Google maps mashup of your own Cell GPS geolocation data in real time, and it takes about 25 minutes to craft a one-page letter. So the advantage of 25 years of progress is that technolgies are cheaper and more common and individuals are less effective.

A default install of SVR2 included development tools - grep, lex, yacc, awk, sed, an assembler, compiler, and cross-compiler for new hardware architectures, the source for the OS and all the tools, an ip stack including email. It was a multiuser environment. The processor performance graph, to give an example, included an animated graph of the pen writing the data on the scrolling log - an unnecessary but artful use of screen space that I miss to this day.

Rock solid? Windows 2000? Give me a break! If you think W2k was rock solid you have low standards.

Microsoft marketed Windows 2000 as the most secure Windows version ever,[15] but it became the target of a number of high-profile virus attacks such as Code Red and Nimda.[16] Over nine years after its release, it continues to receive patches for security vulnerabilities nearly every month.

Windows 2000 was a remarkable advance in the scope of "Microsoft operating systems". People who know better found nothing special in it. It wasn't as good as eight year old Jolix then, and it still isn't.

Re:Time, perspective.

[ClosedSource]

The term "rock solid" never had anything to do with being secure. It was about stability and Windows 2000 was the first NT kernel based OS that was targeted to consumers. It was a great improvement over the real-mode based win9x versions.

Ironically, in Slashdot fashion, the summary of note 15 in wikipedia.org is misleading. The quote about security was in the context of Kerberos, it wasn't about talking about viruses. Although arguably Windows 2000 was the most secure Windows version, it wasn't actually marketed as such.

Re:Time, perspective.

[ClosedSource]

Right. I think the "30" high def graphical terminal" was SVR2's most innovative feature.

Re:Time, perspective.

[symbolset]

The terminal wasn't part of Unix of course you know. It was part of the ecosystem, an xterm to deliver a graphical interface on top of the operating system supported by an operating environment adapted to xterminals of any shape and size. That the environment allowed for such ridiculous resolutions in that early era is a testament to their forethought, or to absurd limit theory if you prefer. The operating system - then as now - provided only an abstraction for applications to program against and served to allocate machine resources, as it proper to its role. The dislocation of this abstraction is one of the great failures of Windows, and the failure is quite deliberate.

I'll award you some points for finding the heart of the matter at hand, but take them away for deliberately misunderstanding them. Please remove the onion from your belt, as you're clearly not worthy to wear it.

Re:Time, perspective.

[IntlHarvester]

The part you left out is that SVR-anything cost something like $5,000 per machine.

Also the entire UNIX workstation environment rolled over and died when Windows NT hit the market. Essentially nothing was done for a decade until Linux started taking hold. Sun couldn't even be arsed to change the color scheme from the vintage Reagan-era pastels until a couple years ago.

Re:Time, perspective.

[symbolset]

There was a lot wrong with AT&T back then. Now it's sorted, sort of. Even the name AT&T has changed hands twice, but the last company to buy the name seems determined to validate the negative reminiscences. They don't have to care: they're the phone company.

If that's an hubris you can buy, let me put my bid in at a buck and a half.

Re:Time, perspective.

[symbolset]

Actually, you're accidentally on topic.

Micosoft identified Unix as a threat early on, and the article in TFA speaks to this. Microsoft did very well at defeating Unix. Unix was a very good operating system, and Microsoft couldn't have competition with those characteristics if they were to succeed.

In the current day Microsoft has defeated Unix by tying up its intellectual property in the wonderfully litigious landscape that is SCO. Microsoft continues to try and fail at defeating Linux because Linux is a much more slippery target. Linus knows that Microsoft is trying to kill his product, as they always have, and he's ignoring them because that's his path to victory. The evil geniuses who could thwart him have long since cashed in their options and gone home.

Re:Time, perspective.

[drinkypoo]

The part you left out is that SVR-anything cost something like $5,000 per machine.

So? We're talking about a time when a top-end PC cost $3500.

Re:Time, perspective.

[ClosedSource]

I reject the notion that there was any "dislocation", just a different approach. You ignore both the historical context of these OSs and their target audience.

Re:Time, perspective.

[Anonymous Coward]

The part you left out is that SVR-anything cost something like $5,000 per machine.

So? We're talking about a time when a top-end PC cost $3500.

Um, a top-end PC today costs something like $3500. Unless by "top-end" you mean "only suitable for running a web browser and word processor". Now, low-end PCs, those were probably a lot more expensive back in the day.

Re:Time, perspective.

[drinkypoo]

Here's something to think about: Things have changed a bit in 20 years (classic ad, passed around more than... you get the idea)

Re:Time, perspective.

[IntlHarvester]

So? We're talking about a time when a top-end PC cost $3500.

And a top-end UNIX workstation cost $20,000. Gee, I can't imagine why the $3500 PC with the $300 Windows NT sold. Especially after the Pentium Pro almost closed the performance gap.

(Not to mention that if you wanted UNIX with that PC, you had to go to SCO.)

I think you're more confused than the OP

[pem]

Assuming you actually had a patent on a codec, you could certainly give out a royalty free license to companies or people who gave the source code of an implementation out. There is no law that would prohibit you from doing this. You could even do like some of the GPL companies like Aladdin or Trolltech -- in fact, you could do their business model one better, because you could license your patent in conjunction with multiple software implementations from different authors, under different licenses.

Of course, the world might change after the Supreme Court decides Bilski, but to take a real-world example, back when CompuServe decided to be stupid and start charging royalties on GIF implementations, wouldn't it have been smarter of them to say that, if your implementation is under the GPL, then there is no royalty? They killed that golden goose about the time it should have started laying them some serious eggs if they had treated it better.

So, if an implementation of GIF was under the GPL (and also available not under the GPL) both the software author and the patent holder could have profited from selling the non-GPLed software version (these could be one and the same entity/person, but that's not strictly necessary). A sane strategy would have charged "x" dollars for the use of the patent, "x+y" for the patent + software, or "0" for the software and patent in a GPLed application.

You cannot selectively license a patent (0|+inf)

I don't know what you think people do with patents, but most patents are, in fact, quite selectively licensed.

Agree

[symbolset]

One might imagine his handwashing will be as enthusiastic as his evangelism was. In order to extract the maximum marketability from his confession it's necessary that he embellish it until it was even more diabolical than it actually was.

I'm not giving him a pass here - the man promoted the evil prevention of progress in a most effective way. I'm just pointing out that much like his efforts then were, his efforts to promote his book will be equally self-serving.

Re:Agree

[MightyMartian]

We don't need an "insider's account" to know how the OOXML scam went down. No one, least of all Microsoft, was being very secretive about it. That was really the most amazing thing about the process. Everyone knows Microsoft loathes and fears open standards, but it was that they pulled off the whole thing with such arrogance and lack of concern. They knew damned well there would be no consequences, that everyone would shrug, and that loyal vile little toadies like Icaza would go around trumpeting their shitty, still partially proprietary "standard".

That's why I'm rooting for Google. I'm sure they're already well on the way to Evil Empire status, but as governments seem utterly unwilling to imprison guys like Ballmer and fine the companies substantially fractions of their net worth so that the investors can directly feel the agonies of the company's misdeeds, about the only thing we can hope for is some other bunch of vile immoral septic-tanks-for-souls can do the current lot in.

Re:Agree

[symbolset]

In my world the prevention of progress is evil. To profit from the prevention of progress is corporate evil. The prevention of interopability through obfuscation of interfaces is the epitome of evil.

Man will move forward or he will not. Any institutional prevention of progress is an effort to prevent the survival of Man, as a species. We have been distracted by the profit motives of this Redmond, WA corporation long enough.

Re:Agree

[shentino]

It's like the demons and devils in the Great Blood War of the D&D cosmology.

As long as they keep each other in check, the rest of the multiverse is safe from invasion, even though both groups would very much enjoy just that.

An open format Microsoft can't implement?

[symbolset]

Let's start with ISO/IEC 29500. This is Microsoft's own bought-and-paid-for International Standards Organization format that includes such rigorous definitions as "whitespace like Office 95 does it". Microsoft managed to destroy the credibility of a 60 year old standards organization devoted to international cooperation in order to get their "standard" accepted but can't be bothered to implement it:

Microsoft, which currently has no products which are compatible with ISO/IEC 29500,[45][46][47][48] has voiced commitment to using the ISO/IEC 29500 standard in their future products.[49]

Never has RTFA been more appropriate.

[symbolset]

Seriously - ready the Comes documents and listen to Bill Gates in his own words describe portability and open formats as anathema to his plans for a Windows world - listen to him instruct his minions on the destruction of interopability. You seriously can't make this stuff up as well as he tells it. The man is a genius. There are ogg video and audio as well. It's beautiful in the way that volcano video is when you live far away from the lava flow.

Re:Never has RTFA been more appropriate.

[Anonymous Coward]

I knew a guy, his uncle fell into a flow of lava. He worked for the park service in Hawaii. He had asbestos pants on and he survived, still burned him up real bad.

You had me

[symbolset]

You had me right up until you said "And whilst I like Ubuntu and De Icaza,". I assume you mean Miguel de Icaza, founder of gnome and proponent of .net and Moonlight.

And then I realized how cleverly you turn the discussion to acceptance of your hero. C#, .net and moonlight are encumbered by patents. Adoption of them is a trap. It's admittedly a sweet trap, but you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...

Re:You had me

[shutdown -p now]

And then I realized how cleverly you turn the discussion to acceptance of your hero.

Oh yes; especially this bit about "boycott Novell" and "boycott Gnome" must be some extremely clever in this context.

When taking part in a discussion, it's worth not having a witch-hunt mindset.

Re:You had me

[symbolset]

You're right. He makes some good points. I have no recall of where I was going with that.

Re:You had me

[tyroneking]

I was trying to be polite to De Icaza :) but by suggesting we boycott Gnome (in the same damn sentance) I had hoped that would indicate where I stand on his whole surreal Microsoft love affair (to make it clear - I HATE IT)
Also, Novell, for literally going to bed with Microsoft (I HATE IT)
Also Jono Bacon, for giving the Boycott Novell guy a hard time on FOSS Weekly (I HATE HIM FOR THAT)
And finally Microsoft, for all the crappy software, every changing interfaces, having had a part in inventing web services (which I like, so it makes it worse), having a damn good tech support site (which again I like but also regret), inventing visual basic for applications, SmartTags and Clippy, the way my work laptop takes 30 minutes to start (I HATE MICOSOFT)
So, to summarise, I HATE MICROSOFT, NOVELL, ICAZA, BACON, MOST OF AMERICA

In the context of Windows OS's

[symbolset]

In the context of Windows OS's, W2k was "rock solid". That's equivalent to Dave Barry's assesment of the claim that XP is Microsoft's most secure operating system ever: the most articulate vegetable ever.

It's funny. laugh. Usually we laugh because we dare not cry. If you want to laugh at something, laugh at the odd spelling of laugh. Is that not weird? And what of weird, which is itself odd?

Dance with the devil

[symbolset]

And you will pay his fee.

Re:Talking to one of those who worked on the case.

[drinkypoo]

To be fair it's not like the other side go out of their way to make their 'standards' easy for Microsoft to implement.

Others have focused on the fact that there is a big difference between not making standards easy to implement, and deliberately making them more difficult. However, there is another issue here: you are a liar. The "other side" does in fact make their standards easy for Microsoft to implement them. As if publishing RFCs which describe the protocols wasn't enough, the source code is Open. That means that Microsoft can look right into the code and see precisely how the system is implemented — a benefit not available from Microsoft platforms, at least not for the common user.

You are either an ignoramus who should keep his hands off the keyboard when he doesn't know shit, or a troll. Pick one; there's no third way.

Ignore this, "Big Talker" (symbolset): Others wont

[Anonymous Coward]

SymbolNOBODY: You said what's quoted below from you, here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1476008&cid=30428430

"It's tolerated (perhaps encouraged) in part because these annoying actors are otherwised engaged in improving Linux. Major Debian and BSD contributors, for example, use slashdot as a workspace for their human-machine interaction side experiments, of which APK is probably one. In addition many of these trolls post links which, if you follow them, will completely hose a Windows machine. This is part of the game. - by symbolset (646467) on Monday December 14, @01:15AM (#30428430) Journal

I took offense to the BOLDED part... & ALL you EVER seem to have is "ad hominem" based attacks on people, not the points they make. So, "symbolNOBODY": The day you can make something like this (& that got you PAID for it, & that has done as well for others online):

http://www.tcmagazine.com/forums/index.php?s=b861a743aa23c4568b7d73e07ef7ecec&showtopic=2662

That's also gone over 250.000 views worldwide in 1++ yrs.' time online, & across 15 forums where that guide for Windows Security has been made either an:

1.) "Sticky/Pinned" thread
2.) An "Essential Guide"
3.) Rates 5/5 stars (etc.)

AND, gets "feedback" like this from users that have applied it:

----

http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28430

PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:

"...recently, months ago when you finally got this guide done, had authorization to try this on simple work station for kids. My client, who paid me an ungodly amount of money to do this, has been PROBLEM FREE FOR MONTHS! I haven't even had a follow up call which is unusual. Now I don't recommend this for the average joe, but it if can work for a kids PC it can work for anything! Now, i substituted OpenDNS and activated the Adult Content filter with them for this kids computer. I know its not perfect, but will catch over 99.5% of said sites."

and

http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=10f9ba9ad5ff990aaae1e7ec91f593a2&t=28430&page=3

"Its 2009 - still trouble free! I was told last week by a co worker who does active directory administration, and he said I was doing overkill. I told him yes, but I just eliminated the half life in windows that you usually get. He said good point. So from 2008 till 2009. No speed decreases, its been to a lan party, moved around in a move, and it still NEVER has had the OS reinstalled besides the fact I imaged the drive over in 2008. Great stuff! My client STILL Hasn't called me back in regards to that one machine to get it locked down for the kid. I am glad it worked and I am sure her wallet is appreciated too now that it works. Speaking of which, I need to call her to see if I can get some leads. APK - I will say it again, the guide is FANTASTIC! Its made my PC experience much easier. Sandboxing was great. Getting my host file updated, setting services to system service, rather than system local. (except AVG updater, needed system local)"

Thronka - forums member @ xtremepccentral.com

----

THEN, when you have done so, on THAT account? THEN, you can talk (and, ESPECIALLY about that which you said about myself which I quoted from you above shows YOU, libelling ME, clearly. It's clearly immaterial & outright b.s. from you, vs. the kind of feedback my guide on securing Windows gets, quoted above from others? It CLEARLY disproved your outright b.s., period...)

Also?

When you have done all of this as I have over time in this Art & Science of computing:

"My Na

M$ shortsighted

[garethharris]

M$ is a child of IBM and slew them in true Oedipal fashion. But like many of these comedy/tragedies, there are unintended side effects to their behavior. Just think of the posture M$ could be in now, if they had concentrated on having a worthwhile product instead of screwing everybody with market manipulation an licensing games. Hoist by their own petard, down they go. It is interesting to compare the decline with the ascent.

Back up your "Big Talk", symbolset

[Anonymous Coward]

SymbolNOBODY: You said what's quoted below from you, here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1476008&cid=30428430

"It's tolerated (perhaps encouraged) in part because these annoying actors are otherwised engaged in improving Linux. Major Debian and BSD contributors, for example, use slashdot as a workspace for their human-machine interaction side experiments, of which APK is probably one. In addition many of these trolls post links which, if you follow them, will completely hose a Windows machine. This is part of the game. - by symbolset (646467) on Monday December 14, @01:15AM (#30428430) Journal

I took offense to the BOLDED part... & ALL you EVER seem to have is "ad hominem" based attacks on people, not the points they make. So, "symbolNOBODY": The day you can make something like this (& that got you PAID for it, & that has done as well for others online):

http://www.tcmagazine.com/forums/index.php?s=b861a743aa23c4568b7d73e07ef7ecec&showtopic=2662

That's also gone over 250.000 views worldwide in 1++ yrs.' time online, & across 15 forums where that guide for Windows Security has been made either an:

1.) "Sticky/Pinned" thread
2.) An "Essential Guide"
3.) Rates 5/5 stars (etc.)

AND, gets "feedback" like this from users that have applied it:

----

http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28430

PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:

"...recently, months ago when you finally got this guide done, had authorization to try this on simple work station for kids. My client, who paid me an ungodly amount of money to do this, has been PROBLEM FREE FOR MONTHS! I haven't even had a follow up call which is unusual. Now I don't recommend this for the average joe, but it if can work for a kids PC it can work for anything! Now, i substituted OpenDNS and activated the Adult Content filter with them for this kids computer. I know its not perfect, but will catch over 99.5% of said sites."

and

http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=10f9ba9ad5ff990aaae1e7ec91f593a2&t=28430&page=3

"Its 2009 - still trouble free! I was told last week by a co worker who does active directory administration, and he said I was doing overkill. I told him yes, but I just eliminated the half life in windows that you usually get. He said good point. So from 2008 till 2009. No speed decreases, its been to a lan party, moved around in a move, and it still NEVER has had the OS reinstalled besides the fact I imaged the drive over in 2008. Great stuff! My client STILL Hasn't called me back in regards to that one machine to get it locked down for the kid. I am glad it worked and I am sure her wallet is appreciated too now that it works. Speaking of which, I need to call her to see if I can get some leads. APK - I will say it again, the guide is FANTASTIC! Its made my PC experience much easier. Sandboxing was great. Getting my host file updated, setting services to system service, rather than system local. (except AVG updater, needed system local)"

Thronka - forums member @ xtremepccentral.com

----

THEN, when you have done so, on THAT account? THEN, you can talk (and, ESPECIALLY about that which you said about myself which I quoted from you above shows YOU, libelling ME, clearly. It's clearly immaterial & outright b.s. from you, vs. the kind of feedback my guide on securing Windows gets, quoted above from others? It CLEARLY disproved your outright b.s., period...)

Also?

When you have done all of this as I have over time in this Art & Science of computing:

"My Na

This is old. There are new tactics deployed now.

[Anonymous Coward]

This what Microsoft wanted in order of preference:

1) Everyone use their OS and their applications and have to pay for it, and nobody use the FOSS OS or applications.
2) Everyone use their OS and nobody use the FOSS OS or applications.
3) Everyone use their OS and (grudgingly) all FOSS developed on their OS too, to stop the rival OS gaining traction at their expense.

Well vendor lock in and embrace, and extend almost secured them number 1, but they lost out.
Same tactics almost got them number 2, but same result there too.
They have now deployed their most radical tactic yet. They are 'helping' all FOSS projects to develop on their OS but strangely shunning Linux. We all know why.

If Linux dies, you can be sure that so will the support for FOSS on Microsoft platform. They love you only while you have a choice. They are in the process of taking that choice away from you....

Re:Talking to one of those who worked on the case.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing to see here, move along.

All those mean is that they don't want others just piggybacking off of their R&D. Yeah, I know, it's quite the rage these days for open source developers to leverage someone else's R&D so they just add to it and don't do any actual R&D work, but Microsoft had a point (and likely still has a point)--they are putting time and money into functionality and no, someone else shouldn't just be able to come along and just use it without any work.

Also consider that after all this time, Linux is still just a clone of UNIX with desktops that keep trying to be the Windows desktop. Apparently it's so important for Linux to run Windows apps there's even a Wine emulator and a Mono project for DotNet.

BIG TALK = symbolset, and that's about it

[Anonymous Coward]

SymbolNOBODY: You said what's quoted below from you, here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1476008&cid=30428430

"It's tolerated (perhaps encouraged) in part because these annoying actors are otherwised engaged in improving Linux. Major Debian and BSD contributors, for example, use slashdot as a workspace for their human-machine interaction side experiments, of which APK is probably one. In addition many of these trolls post links which, if you follow them, will completely hose a Windows machine. This is part of the game. - by symbolset (646467) on Monday December 14, @01:15AM (#30428430) Journal

I took offense to the BOLDED part... & ALL you EVER seem to have is "ad hominem" based attacks on people, not the points they make. So, "symbolNOBODY": The day you can make something like this (& that got you PAID for it, & that has done as well for others online):

http://www.tcmagazine.com/forums/index.php?s=b861a743aa23c4568b7d73e07ef7ecec&showtopic=2662

That's also gone over 250.000 views worldwide in 1++ yrs.' time online, & across 15 forums where that guide for Windows Security has been made either an:

1.) "Sticky/Pinned" thread
2.) An "Essential Guide"
3.) Rates 5/5 stars (etc.)

AND, gets "feedback" like this from users that have applied it:

----

http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28430

PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:

"...recently, months ago when you finally got this guide done, had authorization to try this on simple work station for kids. My client, who paid me an ungodly amount of money to do this, has been PROBLEM FREE FOR MONTHS! I haven't even had a follow up call which is unusual. Now I don't recommend this for the average joe, but it if can work for a kids PC it can work for anything! Now, i substituted OpenDNS and activated the Adult Content filter with them for this kids computer. I know its not perfect, but will catch over 99.5% of said sites."

and

http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=10f9ba9ad5ff990aaae1e7ec91f593a2&t=28430&page=3

"Its 2009 - still trouble free! I was told last week by a co worker who does active directory administration, and he said I was doing overkill. I told him yes, but I just eliminated the half life in windows that you usually get. He said good point. So from 2008 till 2009. No speed decreases, its been to a lan party, moved around in a move, and it still NEVER has had the OS reinstalled besides the fact I imaged the drive over in 2008. Great stuff! My client STILL Hasn't called me back in regards to that one machine to get it locked down for the kid. I am glad it worked and I am sure her wallet is appreciated too now that it works. Speaking of which, I need to call her to see if I can get some leads. APK - I will say it again, the guide is FANTASTIC! Its made my PC experience much easier. Sandboxing was great. Getting my host file updated, setting services to system service, rather than system local. (except AVG updater, needed system local)"

Thronka - forums member @ xtremepccentral.com

----

THEN, when you have done so, on THAT account? THEN, you can talk (and, ESPECIALLY about that which you said about myself which I quoted from you above shows YOU, libelling ME, clearly. It's clearly immaterial & outright b.s. from you, vs. the kind of feedback my guide on securing Windows gets, quoted above from others? It CLEARLY disproved your outright b.s., period...)

Also?

When you have done all of this as I have over time in this Art & Science of computing:

"My Na

Microsoft is, was, and always will be Evil.

[echtertyp]

Microsoft == Sauron

This is what stating b.s. about others gets you

[Anonymous Coward]

SymbolNOBODY: You said what's quoted below from you, here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1476008&cid=30428430

"It's tolerated (perhaps encouraged) in part because these annoying actors are otherwised engaged in improving Linux. Major Debian and BSD contributors, for example, use slashdot as a workspace for their human-machine interaction side experiments, of which APK is probably one. In addition many of these trolls post links which, if you follow them, will completely hose a Windows machine. This is part of the game. - by symbolset (646467) on Monday December 14, @01:15AM (#30428430) Journal

I took offense to the BOLDED part... & ALL you EVER seem to have is "ad hominem" based attacks on people, not the points they make. So, "symbolNOBODY": The day you can make something like this (& that got you PAID for it, & that has done as well for others online):

http://www.tcmagazine.com/forums/index.php?s=b861a743aa23c4568b7d73e07ef7ecec&showtopic=2662

That's also gone over 250.000 views worldwide in 1++ yrs.' time online, & across 15 forums where that guide for Windows Security has been made either an:

1.) "Sticky/Pinned" thread
2.) An "Essential Guide"
3.) Rates 5/5 stars (etc.)

AND, gets "feedback" like this from users that have applied it:

----

http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28430

PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:

"...recently, months ago when you finally got this guide done, had authorization to try this on simple work station for kids. My client, who paid me an ungodly amount of money to do this, has been PROBLEM FREE FOR MONTHS! I haven't even had a follow up call which is unusual. Now I don't recommend this for the average joe, but it if can work for a kids PC it can work for anything! Now, i substituted OpenDNS and activated the Adult Content filter with them for this kids computer. I know its not perfect, but will catch over 99.5% of said sites."

and

http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=10f9ba9ad5ff990aaae1e7ec91f593a2&t=28430&page=3

"Its 2009 - still trouble free! I was told last week by a co worker who does active directory administration, and he said I was doing overkill. I told him yes, but I just eliminated the half life in windows that you usually get. He said good point. So from 2008 till 2009. No speed decreases, its been to a lan party, moved around in a move, and it still NEVER has had the OS reinstalled besides the fact I imaged the drive over in 2008. Great stuff! My client STILL Hasn't called me back in regards to that one machine to get it locked down for the kid. I am glad it worked and I am sure her wallet is appreciated too now that it works. Speaking of which, I need to call her to see if I can get some leads. APK - I will say it again, the guide is FANTASTIC! Its made my PC experience much easier. Sandboxing was great. Getting my host file updated, setting services to system service, rather than system local. (except AVG updater, needed system local)"

Thronka - forums member @ xtremepccentral.com

----

THEN, when you have done so, on THAT account? THEN, you can talk (and, ESPECIALLY about that which you said about myself which I quoted from you above shows YOU, libelling ME, clearly. It's clearly immaterial & outright b.s. from you, vs. the kind of feedback my guide on securing Windows gets, quoted above from others? It CLEARLY disproved your outright b.s., period...)

Also?

When you have done all of this as I have over time in this Art & Science of computing:

"My Na

This is a "funny laugh", about YOU

[Anonymous Coward]

SymbolNOBODY: You said what's quoted below from you, here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1476008&cid=30428430

"It's tolerated (perhaps encouraged) in part because these annoying actors are otherwised engaged in improving Linux. Major Debian and BSD contributors, for example, use slashdot as a workspace for their human-machine interaction side experiments, of which APK is probably one. In addition many of these trolls post links which, if you follow them, will completely hose a Windows machine. This is part of the game. - by symbolset (646467) on Monday December 14, @01:15AM (#30428430) Journal

I took offense to the BOLDED part... & ALL you EVER seem to have is "ad hominem" based attacks on people, not the points they make. So, "symbolNOBODY": The day you can make something like this (& that got you PAID for it, & that has done as well for others online):

http://www.tcmagazine.com/forums/index.php?s=b861a743aa23c4568b7d73e07ef7ecec&showtopic=2662

That's also gone over 250.000 views worldwide in 1++ yrs.' time online, & across 15 forums where that guide for Windows Security has been made either an:

1.) "Sticky/Pinned" thread
2.) An "Essential Guide"
3.) Rates 5/5 stars (etc.)

AND, gets "feedback" like this from users that have applied it:

----

http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28430

PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:

"...recently, months ago when you finally got this guide done, had authorization to try this on simple work station for kids. My client, who paid me an ungodly amount of money to do this, has been PROBLEM FREE FOR MONTHS! I haven't even had a follow up call which is unusual. Now I don't recommend this for the average joe, but it if can work for a kids PC it can work for anything! Now, i substituted OpenDNS and activated the Adult Content filter with them for this kids computer. I know its not perfect, but will catch over 99.5% of said sites."

and

http://www.xtremepccentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=10f9ba9ad5ff990aaae1e7ec91f593a2&t=28430&page=3

"Its 2009 - still trouble free! I was told last week by a co worker who does active directory administration, and he said I was doing overkill. I told him yes, but I just eliminated the half life in windows that you usually get. He said good point. So from 2008 till 2009. No speed decreases, its been to a lan party, moved around in a move, and it still NEVER has had the OS reinstalled besides the fact I imaged the drive over in 2008. Great stuff! My client STILL Hasn't called me back in regards to that one machine to get it locked down for the kid. I am glad it worked and I am sure her wallet is appreciated too now that it works. Speaking of which, I need to call her to see if I can get some leads. APK - I will say it again, the guide is FANTASTIC! Its made my PC experience much easier. Sandboxing was great. Getting my host file updated, setting services to system service, rather than system local. (except AVG updater, needed system local)"

Thronka - forums member @ xtremepccentral.com

----

THEN, when you have done so, on THAT account? THEN, you can talk (and, ESPECIALLY about that which you said about myself which I quoted from you above shows YOU, libelling ME, clearly. It's clearly immaterial & outright b.s. from you, vs. the kind of feedback my guide on securing Windows gets, quoted above from others? It CLEARLY disproved your outright b.s., period...)

Also?

When you have done all of this as I have over time in this Art & Science of computing:

"My Na

You pays your money and you takes your chances

[ClosedSource]

Well, the only reason Kildall is part of the IBM PC story is that Bill Gates referred IBM to him.

Most people would be grateful for a business referral to the largest computer company in the world, but perhaps you don't "read" it that way.

None of the players in the creation of the PC knew at the time that it would be such a big success. IBM, Intel and Gates took the chance and Kildall didn't.

Re:Talking to one of those who worked on the case.

[myrdos2]

OGG, CSS, OASIS, OOXML... although the last one isn't really 'open'. I'm sure there's like a gazillion others. They're just completely unable to do it.