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TSA Wants You To Keep Your Seat, and Your Hands In Sight
An anonymous reader excerpts from an AP story as carried by Yahoo News about changes stemming from yesterday's foiled bombing attempt of a Northwest Airlines flight: "Some airlines were telling passengers on Saturday that new government security regulations prohibit them from leaving their seats beginning an hour before landing. The regulations are a response to a suspected terrorism incident on Christmas Day. Air Canada said in a statement that new rules imposed by the Transportation Security Administration limit on-board activities by passengers and crew in US airspace. ... Flight attendants on some domestic flights are informing passengers of similar rules. Passengers on a flight from New York to Tampa Saturday morning were also told they must remain in their seats and couldn't have items in their laps, including laptops and pillows." The TSA's list of prohibited items doesn't seem to have changed in the last day, though.
Another reason for me not to fly. And another Al Qaeda success in disrupting the US economy and society beyond their wildest dreams.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
How ridiculous can flying become? Just say "F**K YOU" to terrorists, and fly as if nothing had happened. Otherwise they've won.
With all due respect on the aisle thing, if I'm on a long-ish flight, fall asleep after eating whatever, and I have to pee badly enough, stand aside and let me use the lav, or I'll just piss in my paints in the aisle and let the cleaning crew on the ground deal with it... not my fault you guys tied to keep me from using the bathroom despite pointing out how badly I needed it a dozen++ times. I wish I was kidding, but I'm not. The TSA has gone beyond asinine now.
If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
I am starting to think the airlines want this.
If government rules make it impossible to have comfortable flight, why should an airline even try to make the flight comfortable?
(fedex can ship 200 pounds of meat cheaper than american airlines)*
*might not actually be true, but I am sure some bean counter is thinking it
Especially because the terrorist in question remained in his seat the whole time.
In fact, the only person who seems to have left his seat is the guy who got up to stop the attack. So, should he have remained seated instead?
Impacting our day to day to lives = terrorism has succeeded.
Its psychological warfare. The mind is infinitely more powerful than any bomb.
Because apparently the only possible time to detonate something and bring down an airplane is in the last hour before landing. So THAT is why the shoe bomber failed....he did it too early!
How about we have a reasoned response to this instead of just blindly making shit up based on the last attack?
The last one sounded like some guy successfully set off a charge that was barely large enough to set his pants on fire, then some guy jumped him afterwards. How, exactly, is that foiled?
Just like the shoe bomber fracas a couple of years ago, is that to thwart a perp attacking an aircraft, what you need are passengers who are ready to go berserk on his ass. No TSA or air marshalls needed.
The spurt of rule-making that follows an incident like this is nothing but a demand for more docility from the public. The TSA is useless.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I've canceled my vacation. Not because I'm afraid of terrorists-- I'm not, at all. We're talking at about 1 death per 4 million passengers.
No, it's that in response to this sliver of a threat, you're guaranteeing that I'll spend twice the time in line, and the flight will be as miserable as you can make it. This will cost literally billions of dollars (at 300 million hours, about 450 lifetimes) of productive passenger time per year. And all because some twat might set his crotch on fire-- good thing you don't allow us to have water anymore.
Alright. Fine. Let the airlines go out of business; this nation of cowards deserves it. I suppose we'll need another bailout, to pay the airlines to leave their aircraft on the tarmac.
Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for imaginary security are assholes.
Fireworks in specific are banned too! And he was in his seat.
Basically there should be no rules because of this, because everything he did was already sufficiently covered.
Any policy changes because of this are 100% "Looking like your doing something" and/or fear.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
To keep the rule makers employed.
"On every second Tuesday, you will strap a sausage to your nose, hope on one foot and shout 'I am a pretty wittle princess!'"
"But why? How will this rule solve anything?"
"Silence! Are you on the side of the drug smugglers/pedophiles/terrorists! Submit to us, and demonstrate it by quacking like a duck."
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I'm all for security but now this all nonsensical. Instead of actually making actual changes they just impose extremely annoying rules that have no actual security improvement. What does it matter whether or not it is the last hour...can't the terrorist just set off a bomb...I dunno before the last hour. I don't understand what the actual point of this rule is.
So if I want to pee, read a book, put something away, or so much as even flinch I'm gonna be threatened with an arrest. Simply inconveniencing people isn't gonna make security any better...
Number of people dead from an airplane incident this year: 0
Number of people dead from car accidents this year: tens of thousands
Number of people dead from cancer this year: hundreds of thousands
Number of people inconvenienced because of stupid airline regulations: millions
Number of people losing their livelihood due to reduced tourism to the USA: probably tens of thousands
Number of people dieing as an indirect cause of airline regulations: probably more than the victims of terrorism this year
Number of people failing to comprehend basic statistics: hundreds of millions
Seriously, enough of this madness. It was a foiled bombing attempt that came with the usual Al Quaeda franchise branding. I certainly don't care about the original news more than a few brief lines about it on some buried page on the BBC's website, however it's pissing me off in a major way that a lot of people seem to think this is a big deal. It's not!
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
You beat terrorists by raising a middle finger in their direction, mocking them mercilessly and accepting casualties once in a while. You kiss terrorist arse when you pull this kind of crap. What's next, handcuff passengers to their seats and have police strutting up and down the aisles during flights? Give me an effin' break!
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Well duh. If you're already hopelessly worthless at enforcing the rules you've always had, well just make more rules!
So, during this time when you aren't allowed to get out of your seat, aren't allowed to use the bathroom (explicitly mentioned in an article I read):
What happens if you have to crap? Like really have to? I have a feeling if someone started yelling about how they were gonna shit their pants, a flight attendant would let them to the bathroom, although I think if you're at the point where passengers are having to yell about needing to take a crap (in front of dozens of passengers), you are opening yourself up to a lawsuit.
I have trouble keeping my son in his high chair with his hands in plain site in a high chair. Good luck getting infants to sit still.
I don't know who's stupider: The idiots at the TSA who come up with the rules, the politicians that give them this power, or the dickheads that allow the politicians to be elected.
I'll stay well out of your country. I only wish your fucked up rules didn't get copied by our own government and idiotic organisations. We just had some ridiculous security restrictions lifted in Australia. What's the bet that all gets reversed thanks to you crazy as fuck yanks?
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Has anybody provided any evidence that the guy had anything remotely like a bomb?
From this article:
High explosives are believed to have been moulded to his body and sewn in to his underpants.
...
A preliminary FBI analysis has found that the device allegedly found on Mr Abdulmutallab contained the high explosive PETN, also known as pentaerythritol.
It sounds pretty full on to me. I think we dodged a bullet.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
It's stupid not because it's exaggerated, but because it's ineffective. It's BS. I went to a conference in the US at the end of November, and was reminded just how bad it is to fly to and from the US. I have also flown to and from Israel, a country very much in the crosshairs of terrorists, and the security procedure was MUCH more humane, both on the flights and at boarding. (in fact, I didn't even need a visa for Israel, while I need to go through an incredibly complicated and expensive procedure to get a US visa... but this is a different story (or is it?)) The Israelis do have some security processes in place, but they are mostly stealth and unobtrusive. Well, in any case, they must be doing something right, because there has not been a hijacked or otherwise terror-affected flight to or from Israel in decades now.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Make every passenger from Nigeria go out through security in Amsterdam, then back in.
Amsterdam already does this, not just for Nigeria, but for every passenger arriving from every country.
You have clearly never been to the Amsterdam airport. The security checkpoints in Amsterdam are at the departure gates, not at the terminal entrance. Every single departure gate has an individual security checkpoint, with metal detector and x-ray machine. Every passenger boarding the flight is screened, regardless of their point of origin.
My first reaction upon seeing this setup was that it was a waste of resources for every gate to have a separate checkpoint. But it makes sense in a lot of ways. It prevents long lines from building up in any single checkpoint (important if you're concerned about terrorists setting off bombs while waiting in a densely packed line). Also, unlike US airports, if a passenger escapes through the checkpoint, it's very easy to find him afterward, since there's nowhere to go beyond the checkpoint except onto the plane. Hence you never see the entire airport closing down because one passenger ran through the checkpoint the wrong way. My guess is that the cost saved by avoiding 2-3 security related airport closures in this way makes up for the cost of the extra hardware.
Go "BOO" enough times and the US will spend itself into financial ruin. Wait -- that's happening NOW!
Ruby Neural Evolution of Augmenting Topologies
Scroll down -- there's a clearly-labeled section detailing which kinds of explosive are allowed and which aren't.
But see, this is one truly moronic result of security theater -- first, the explicit list of specific stuff you can't bring is also an implicit list of stuff you can. If I were an aspiring terrorist, I'd be reading through that thinking, "Hmm, a golf club would be really useful, but they're banned... I'll just bring a stick of rebar instead." That's the problem with security theater in general -- you're preparing for specific attacks, and by publicly preparing for those, you guarantee that the terrorists won't use that attack -- they'll use something else.
The second problem is that the list in itself is a list of ideas if you can manage to sneak that stuff past security. "Hmm, a spillable battery -- that's a good idea. I just have to put it in a wheelchair and pretend to be disabled..."
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Right, and as there's obviously no way this guy could have spent 20 minutes in the bathroom 61 minutes before landing, this new policy by the TSA is surly just another feather in the cap of the worlds most effective security organization.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
(Assuming he did go through Amsterdam airport security) Part of the problem at Amsterdam airport is that they do tend to rush security checks sometimes. Often, I have seen them open up the security checkpoint at the gate just 20-30 minutes before the flight is due to depart. The security guards are then in a rush to get everyone across and so the scans and bag checks are hastily done. This Nigerian might just have been 'lucky'.
Always proofread carefully to see if you any words out.
After this rule more people will die from blood clots.
Sane airlines actually encourage people to get up from their seats at regular intervals.
E.g. Edelweiss Air used to show a video explaining the issue (I haven't flown with them in a while so I don't know about the current situation), Emirates has some pictures on how to keep circulation intact etc.
I've been to Israel only once -- earlier this year; beautiful and interesting place to visit! -- and while I agree with you that their procedures seemed more humane, I wouldn't say that they (speaking only of the visible parts) were any less visible / overt than in the U.S., but rather the opposite.
My demographic (perhaps the same as yours, I don't know) I'm sure contributed to the scrutiny I received on both sides of my 3-week trip -- I didn't *notice* any extra attention paid to me during my actual time in the country, which doesn't prove there wasn't any. (That is, as male under 40, traveling alone with no checked baggage, and no strong connections to Israel in the form of family, culture, previous visits, etc.)
I was approached and questioned (not unpleasant -- agent was cute) even on arrival, right on the stairs leading from the plane to the hallway to the main terminal, who called me out by name. Was it partly because I was taking the stairs (two at a time) instead of the escalator, or blind chance? I dunno. All visitors (there are separate lines for Israeli passport holders, and I'm not sure how they're treated) on arrival must clear passport control with a small interview about the purpose of the visit, schedule, etc. I have visited a handful of countries overall (8, I think), but it was by far the most thoroughly and frankly I ever remember being examined. Very different from most of my experiences with TSA in the US, and seemed to be more thoughtful / alert even than what I found in German and American airports when I flew to Berlin from the U.S. in October, 2001 -- a pretty tense time to fly.
On departure from Israel, was engaged in pointed conversation by three different security people in the initial line at the airport, too, before even checking in for my flight, and that's before I reached the two X-ray stations, pat-down station, and chemical sniffer. Asked to spell the names, and give the address, of the friends with whom I had stayed in Jerusalem, to name and describe the place I'd stayed in Haifa, to describe in detail (more than once) the purpose of my trip, my itinerary, etc, and prompted to agree -- again, more than once -- that perhaps someone had supplied me with a package to carry on my flight, etc. "No, this is all my own luggage, and I have had control of it the whole time. Yes, I packed it. Correct, this is my luggage for the entire trip. Yes, I visited Jordan for one day, to visit Petra. No, I don't know anyone in Jordan. Yes, I met some interesting people while I've been in Israel, but No, none of them asked me to carry anything in my luggage. I was in Haifa to give a small talk and to see the city." (etc.) Thought it was a bit much even given my expectations of hard-nosed vigilance, it was all fairly polite and respectful* -- just insistent. It also buoyed my confidence that people who seemed competent and thoughtful were visibly involved, and actually enjoyed it as an interesting cultural experience. If I flew there every month, I might feel a lot differently about it.
This is not to say that I am aware of all the security stuff going on in the background, there or in the U.S. -- I figure (and hope) that there's more to it than what I see ;)
Cheers,
timothy
* This is certainly not my experience with TSA, though I'm sure some of their agents are competent, polite, and alert. I've just seen, or at least taken note of, more of the other kind. My horror stories aren't even campfire ghost stories compared to the people who've really gotten screwed over by TSA, and so aren't worth recounting at this time of night, so I'll just leave it at that.
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
What kind of brainwashing and delusions made him think he could take down an airliner with a bag of stuff he regurgitated and cooked up in a plane toilet? This guy was a clown.
His own father had warned the US authorities about his extremism already, but they had basically opened a file then ignored him. Perhaps they made a realistic assessment that this guy was only a threat to his own trousers?
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
If he had set it off in the toilet, then the restrictions introduced would probably be worse. They would probably have banned the use of the toilet on planes.
Either way, "the terrorists win."
Terrorists are just spoiled children. They throw very big and dangerous tantrums for attention. Their acts and our responses are all attention.
Terrorists, like spoiled children, are best discouraged by ignoring them. Will there always be spoiled children? Yes. It's a fact of life. Can't stop life.
Once in a while I get an awful urge to find a toilet really quickly. Waiting an hour to use a restroom might cause a lot of people to lose their lunch from the stink of what might occur.
Frankly we have gone insane. At the price of our current wars against terror we might be better off to let the loonies pick a large American building and two large passenger jest to blow up every year. We would save money for sure compared to the cost of using our military.
Or we could cut lose and use the big weapons and see if any survivors still want to fight.
So he will do this much earlier. Or is there some physics that makes an explosion 30 minutes before landing more dangerous then 1 hour and 30 minutes?
People smuggle drugs on planes all the time. (They put in in places where some people keep their watch.) One stick and two matches should be enough. And I am sure that they will be able to put the match on the stick. It is not that they need a fuse. That is only there for safety.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
We all make grandiose statements about "security theater," how worthless new rules are going to be, vowing never to fly again, etc. etc etc...but how many of us take our comments beyond a Slashdot post? How many comments about knee-jerk reactions are knee-jerk posts? I'll admit to the same, having sworn off flying if at all possible and driving to my desired destinations.
I'm not saying "quit whining." Far from it--what is being said needs to be said, but it needs to be said in the proper forum. Contact the TSA, the airlines, and your Congressional representation. Tell them the same things (with a dash of proper grammar and spelling and a certain amount of decor, of course) that, as the flying (or former flying) public, you object to tax dollars being wasted on what is perceived to be ineffective security measures. Make it a voting issue when the next election comes rolling around. Let those who make the rules know that they are having an effect--a negative effect. Tell the airline about that road trip you took and how much more enjoyable it was without having to submit to a bunch of BS screening.
I'll grant you that the most you can hope for, as an individual, is some sort of form-letter response from your Congressional representation. The airlines won't care because, frankly, if you don't buy the ticket, somebody else will. The TSA won't care because, well, they don't have to care. (Yes, I'm a little cynical.) En masse, however, somebody, somewhere, might start to pay attention.
I'll take my own advice right now, and after reading up on the actual event and the ensuing rules changes, make it clear to my representation my position, and what I expect to be done about it. I ask direct questions, in hopes of getting something other than a form-letter response. That way if I get a canned response that doesn't address the question, I have a reason to ask it again.
My deep thought for the day.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
by the time it was 9/12, every person who died there, was replaced.
no matter how much you tell yourself that 'thousands' of dead is important, it simply isn't.
The 2500 who died at the WTC weren't infants or elders. They were firemen.
They were men and women in their most productive years. In the rarefied business of investment banking and world trade.
Death is universal. But Death is also particular.
Hit hard enough, your city, your world, can be wounded beyond all hope of recovery.
DOCTOROW, Schneier, Sunday — After the Detroit Christmas firecracker incident, the Transport Security Administration now requires all US airline passengers to be strapped into their seats naked with catheters fitted, for their comfort and convenience.
"It's the most efficient way to keep the country moving and let the TERRORISTS know they haven't won," said TSA head Gale Rossides. "We're just trying to work out what to do when the TERRORISTS work out how to set off bombs by clenching their butt cheeks together."
Passengers are advised not to bother with laptops ("You could explode the batteries with your urine!"), iPods or the vile containers of sedition such as "books." "Carriage of any carryon item will result in lengthy security delays for the customer," said a TSA advisory, "but, in response to customer concerns, the TSA officer with the latex glove will give you a box of chocolates and promises to respect you in the morning, and will definitely call you later in the week. Honestly."
US tourism offices have finally given up and shut up shop. "I hear Afghanistan is pretty nice this time of year. Iran's pretty good too."
Officials at Amtrak did not give a comment on the phone, just the sound of dancing around their offices singing "We're In The Money."
The passenger who allegedly set off the firecracker has mounted a stern defense, showing his paycheck from the Department of Homeland Security's Subdepartment of Job Preservation.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
You're right - dismantling your own democracy as a response to terrorists is definitely not the right response. Particularly when the countermeasures are so stupid. Worth noting that there *is* an effective way of combating terrorists however. Remove their community support. They don't come from nowhere and they don't arrange all these plans and have these beliefs without some friends and neighbours wondering. But a people that see occupations of their countries or US support for regimes like the Saudis are a people that are angry enough that they become less willing to stop such individuals themselves. And these communities are the best defense against terrorists.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Firstly, the Saudi's have a great deal of influence over world oil prices which affects the US economy greatly. Secondly, the Saudis are an ally of the US in the Middle East (at least the ruling regime is, the people are a different matter). For example, the Saudi's are fighting an on-off proxy war with Iran in Yemen (a small country on the Southern border of Saudi). They fly US supplied F-15s. The US navy has intervened at their request to carry out bombings. Up until 2003, (i.e. post 9/11) the US had around 4,500 troops stationed in the country. I hate to pull out Wikipedia as its often used as a lazy way to find facts that support ones case out of context, but in this case I'm going to post a link: US & Saudi Relations. Note that the US provided both training and modern weaponry to the Saudi military in order to "combat shiite extremism". Extremism of course means revolutionaries that you don't like. Bahrain isn't legally part of Saudi Arabia, but I think you'll forgive me if I roll them in together given their indivisible strategic and military circumstances and united political positions. The US Fifth Fleet is based there (normally). If you think those forces wouldn't (and haven't) got involved in putting down any revolutionary efforts, you're mistaken.
I think that demonstrates US support for the Saudi regime. The US wants a strong presence in the Middle East and the Saudi regime is happy to be their loyal ally and base of operations at the expense of the people. It's a fucking monarchy for fucks sake. As regards your statement that Al Quaeda being "a big baby using the excuse of "OMG they stepped on our sand, get em'", Bin Laden himself stated that their one of their main motivations was US presence in Saudi. Why should that be false? Al Quaeda wanted to overthrow the Saudi regime. The US protects the Saudi regime. What is your reason for disputing their given motivations? It's a piss-poor sort of terrorist that goes about striking terror for causes other than their own.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
I wonder if more interaction between passengers would actually help matters.
I'm sure keeping people from the toilet won't help anybody though, as people simply cannot always be forced to hold their pee.
If an airline ever holds you in your seat when you need to pee, simply call an attendant to explain that you likely cannot hold it, and offer that they may either (a) bring you a bucket, or (b) frisk you and let you go. I bet the airline must ground the plane for longer if you pee in your seat or on the floor.
If you carry a pee bottle, then explain what your doing to nearby passengers first, as you don't want them attacking you for "mixing stuff".
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Ah bacon: the cornerstone of any Islamic fundamentalist terrorist breakfast!
WTF?!? The people I worked with on the 97th floor of 1 WTC were working stiffs like you & me, not "some of the wealthiest people on the planet". So were the people on 96, 95, 94, 93, 98, and 99. There were no "multi-millionaires" among them. (The multi-millionaires in the firm I worked for then stayed in the Midtown Manhattan office. WTC was for back office staff only.)
Don't talk about things you have no knowledge of.