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INTERPOL Granted Diplomatic Immunity In the US
ShakaUVM writes "A couple of weeks ago without any fanfare or notice in the media, President Obama granted INTERPOL full diplomatic immunity while conducting investigations on American soil. While INTERPOL has been allowed to operate in the US in the past, under an executive order by President Reagan, they've had to follow the same rules as the FBI, CIA, etc., while on American soil. This means, among other things, the new executive order makes INTERPOL immune to Freedom of Information Act requests and that INTERPOL agents cannot be punished for most any crimes they may commit. Hopefully the worst we'll see from this is INTERPOL agents ignoring their speeding tickets." Update: 01/05 02:57 GMT by KD : Reader davecb pointed out an ABC News blog that comes to pretty much the opposite conclusion as to the import of the executive order.
This is really a change of a default assumption than freedom to do anything without penalty. If INTERPOL starts going crazy, it only takes a presidential signature to take this exception back.
So if the INTERPOL guy says "I won't, and I don't have to!" and the fed guy says "It's a matter of national security!"... all he needs to do is get the message up to the top of the chain-of-command, and suddenly that fed guy can grab whatever info he wants.
Yeah, high standard, but it's not going to change things much.
This means, among other things, the new executive order makes INTERPOL immune to Freedom of Information Act requests and that INTERPOL agents cannot be punished for most any crimes they may commit. Hopefully the worst we'll see from this is INTERPOL agents ignoring their speeding tickets.
I'm sold. INTERPOL, sign me up!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
But the question on everyone's mind is, can RadioHead expect the same deal?
the headline says:
INTERPOL Granted Diplomatic Immunity In the US
The actual article says: "these privileges are not the same as the rights afforded under "diplomatic immunity," they are considerably less. "Diplomatic immunity" comes from the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which states that a "diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State." That is NOT what the International Organizations Immunities Act is.
The headline seems to be wrong.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Not quite sure this story got filed right. Nothing to do with our online rights... this has more to do with all our rights.
Come on, you're telling me that INTERPOL now has the same protection as the "International Pacific Halibut Commission and Inter-American Tropical Tuna Commission".
Yeapsireee, gotta watch out for those rouge Halbut operatives. Goodness me.
More seriously, remember INTERPOL actually has very little power - they're a coordination agency. They have no powers of arrest. They don't even DO investigations. What they DO is if a cop in Australia is tracking down a criminal who's fled to Los Angeles and therefore needs the LAPD assistance, INTERPOL is the agency that makes that inter-police-force connection happen. There are no "INTERPOL" officers in L.A. that do the arrest - that's for the LAPD (or FBI).
Indeed, and the reason that diplomatic immunity is not a "do whatever you want" license is that any laws you break result in embarrassing complaints to your home country, who will recall you and punish you in their own system.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
This is not diplomatic immunity. This is just protection against searches, IRS, etc. This basically allows a law enforcement officer to carry out his duties. It is identical to when the FBI comes to a local town to investigate, they can not be hindered or stopped by the local law enforcement. This is obvious and should not raise any issues.
don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
Diplomatic Immunity doesn't mean they get to violate our laws, it just means they don't go to jail for violating our laws. If complaints start to pile up (thanks to the ACLU I'm sure) then they will loose their immunity.
Right? Or am I acting like a sheeple?
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
The title and summary are pretty misleading, it appears the only thing Obama did was exempt INTERPOL from certain taxes and provided them with immunity from search and seizure. The article explicitly states that it is not the same thing as diplomatic immunity.
By "this" i think you mean the US of A.
What about the 'sovereignty' of other countries? Our founding tribes would run amok if they knew their ancestors would bow for the pressure of the US.
There's no such thing as an interpol agent. They delegate to national agencies (ie the DoJ) who do /not/ get immunity. What they do have is a bunch of committees and advisors, and a (shared) database of people 'of interest'.
Somebody's been watching the man from UNCLE a few too many times
Political party X screwed us, vote Y!
Seems like we've only got two valid choices here. Which is the one we hate and the one we like again?
And this is why you should not pretend to be a lawyer. Ready?
Interpol has no police force. It conducts no investigations. It doesn't arrest anyone. As an international organization it was not subject to FOIA requests anyway, because it's not a department of the federal government.
As a previous poster noted, this is NOT DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY. This is immunity from attachment of any property that Interpol may have in the USA. Any employees of Interpol, if any, stationed in the USA can and would still be arrested for crimes they commit. In summary, both the original submitter and basically every comment I've seen so far are not just wrong, they are comically wrong.
You are ignorant. Interpol has no agents; it's a clearinghouse for information sharing, and it has a bunch of committees. It has never been subject to FOIA requests. Legal authorities working on behalf of Interpol are subject to the same restrictions they always have been. The RIAA has nothing to do with Interpol.
This move by the Obama administration puts Interpol on the same footing as the International Pacific Halibut Commission. Oooh, scary!
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
These are the additional privileges granted to Interpol:
Section 2(c), which provided officials immunity from their property and assets being searched and confiscated; including their archives;
the portions of Section 2(d) and Section 3 relating to customs duties and federal internal-revenue importation taxes;
Section 4, dealing with federal taxes;
Section 5, dealing with Social Security; and
Section 6, dealing with property taxes.
That's it. How exactly does that make you less sovereign?
In countries like Paraguay, Argentina and others in South America, this is pretty standard. Now (since very few years) with left governments immunity is being revoked.
From 2005 in Paraguay:
"the U.S. troops in Paraguay could not be taken before the International Criminal Court if they were accused of crimes against humanity, genocide or war crimes. "
In Argentina, joint naval exercises like Unitas are cancelled because our government don't want to give immunity to US army.
DNA in your Linux: DNALinux
This puts them on the same diplomatic footing as the International Pacific Halibut Commission.
Interpol is not a police agency; it has no agents, and they don't investigate and prosecute crimes. They're an information sharing/clearinghouse organization that has bureaucrats and committee members.
You can come out from under the bed now.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Here are the sections that were addressed by the order, according to the linked article:
Section 2(c), which provided officials immunity from their property and assets being searched and confiscated; including their archives;
the portions of Section 2(d) and Section 3 relating to customs duties and federal internal-revenue importation taxes;
Section 4, dealing with federal taxes;
Section 5, dealing with Social Security; and
Section 6, dealing with property taxes.
Whether or not they have criminal immunity (don't know offhand), there doesn't seem to be ANYTHING in the above executive order addressing such matters. Might have FOIA implications, but doesn't seem to have anything to do with punishment of crimes committed by agents. Summary is wrong.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
I mean... it seems like an article posted by him. Inaccurate headline (they did not get a grant of full "diplomatic" immunity). Inaccurate summary (agents? INTERPOL is a coordinating entity - there ARE no agents!).
Why are you linking to this "article"? It contains no information, only the Obama-bashing expected from your American right-wingers and unsupported hypotheses.
If you care about facts, you can find them, a few seconds of searching revealed this for instance.
Quote:
In other words there appears to be nothing to get worked up about. Even if you believe whatever republicans do is right. Because they would have done the same.
You Americans are crazy.
Are you shitting me? Are you really so ignorant of 1) what Interpol is, and 2) what Obama signed that you're actually believing Alex Jones now?
Obama granted Interpol the same diplomatic status as the International Pacific Halibut Commission. Interpol has no agents; they investigate no crimes and bring no charges. They're an information sharing/clearinghouse staffed by international bureaucrats, and nothing else.
Now, go change your underwear, and quit listening to Glenn Beck, and to your coworker who repeats everything he says.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
They had diplomatic immunity since Reagan's executive order. The statement in the original post that "the new executive order makes INTERPOL immune to Freedom of Information Act requests and that INTERPOL agents cannot be punished for most any crimes they may commit." is factually wrong. The infallible mr. Reagan's executive order did that ... it and not the new executive order gave Interpol the following :
"(b) International organizations, their property and their assets, wherever located, and by whomsoever held, shall enjoy the same immunity from suit and every form of judicial process as is enjoyed by foreign governments, except to the extent that such organizations may expressly waive their immunity for the purpose of any proceedings or by the terms of any contract."
AND
" (a) Persons designated by foreign governments to serve as their representatives in or to international organizations and the officers and employees of such organizations, and members of the immediate families of such representatives, officers, and employees residing with them, other than nationals of the United States, shall, insofar as concerns laws regulating entry into and departure from the United States, alien registration and fingerprinting, and the registration of foreign agents, be entitled to the same privileges, exemptions, and immunities as are accorded under similar circumstances to officers and employees, respectively, of foreign governments, and members of their families.
(b) Representatives of foreign governments in or to international organizations and officers and employees of such organizations shall be immune from suit and legal process relating to acts performed by them in their official capacity and falling within their functions as such representatives, officers, or employees except insofar as such immunity may be waived by the foreign government or international organization concerned."
Reagan gave Interpol diplomatic immunity, Obama removed their duty to pay taxes and extended their immunity to an immunity to searches.
This summary is flat out WRONG. It's phrased to start a flamewar. Click the news link, and see what it says. He did not grant full diplomatic immunity to INTERPOL. I quote from the article: "Basically, recognizing a group under the International Organizations Immunities Act means officials from those organizations are exempt from some taxes and customs fees, and that their records cannot be seized." FOIA might be affected, but they are not immune to crimes.
There you go again, ruining a perfectly good flamewar with your fancy schmancy facts and logic and whatnot. We don't take kindly to your kind around here..
Infinite time means everything that can happen, will. You being you is absolutely incidental. You do not exist.
If George Bush would have signed the exact same executive order, this post would be modded +5, insightful, and with that said, the very people who are heading for the hills because Obama signed it would be trying to defend Bush in that onslaught.
So really, all that is changed is that we substituted one guy for another, but the erosion of liberty continues at pretty much the same or even accelerated pace.
This is my sig.
How fucking classic is it that the submitter linked the words "granted INTERPOL full diplomatic immunity" to an article that explicitly states in caps and everything that this is NOT a granting of diplomatic immunity?
According to the article titled "Just What Did President Obama's Executive Order regarding INTERPOL Do?", what it didn't do is grant diplomatic immunity, and what it did do is grant a limited amount of immunity mostly related to taxes and document seizure. The idea seems to be to to allow international organizations like Red Cross, IAEA, IMF, and now INTERPOL to do their work without participating nations worrying that the U.S. will spy on them by reading these organization's records.
Now I'm not sure I like granting a police force any more immunity of any kind, but that's a hell of a lot less than diplomatic immunity and not as hard to revoke. Maybe other countries were getting concerned about the U.S.'s nosiness and this will enhance international cooperation. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I do know the summary was classic bullshit.
The enemies of Democracy are
That sure sounds pretty cut and dried to me.
It's cut and dry ... Reagon was an illuminati selling us out to the UN.
The immunity belongs to the organization, not the people (even when sometimes they attach to people because of their relationship to the organization.) Like much stronger diplomatic or consular immunities, they are not individual rights; particularly, the institution to whom they are granted may waive them, whether or not the individual affected wishes them to. The rights exist to protect the operation of the institution (particularly, for the protections granted to international institutions, they exist principally to get other countries to cooperate fully with the institution by assuring them that the host country of the institution's facilities won't either use them to seize property acquired by other nation's funding of the organization or to seize sensitive information shared with the organization outside of the scope of the information sharing carried out under the procedures of the organization.)
The immunities at issue that INTERPOL was previously specifically excluded from that apply to international organizations are:
* Immunity to search and confiscation of the organizations premises, property, and archives
* Freedom of customs duties for baggage of staff
* Immunity from various taxes (Social Security, property taxes, federal income taxes)
(Note, all of this is laid out in TFA)
The personal immunities that apply to international organization staff (exemption from immigration controls, and immunity to suit based on official acts) already applied to INTERPOL, because the Reagan Administration order that added INTERPOL to the list of organizations getting the standard set of protections set out for such organizations in US law didn't exclude those personal protections, just some of the institutional protections. All the Obama order did is remove the special limitations that were applied to INTERPOL (and which were irrelevant at the time of the Reagan order, since INTERPOL didn't have offices in the US at the time.) No special privileges beyond those usually granted to international organizations that the United States participates in (and some that it doesn't!) have been granted to INTERPOL.
Means they can break into people's houses to conduct illegal searches without recourse?
And kidnap Americans, to take them across the border, for interrogation, also without judicial recourse?
Doesn't it?
Yes, that's right. It also gives them special X-Ray Vision, which allows them to see hot chicks nekkid in their clothes, as well as giving them their own drive-through lane and allowing them to bowl free on Wednesdays.
But that's not all it does. President Obama has also exempted them from the laws of thermodynamics, so it won't be long before mustachioed INTERPOL agents in their secret mountain lair will be aiming their death ray at the Pentagon while anti-grav ships hover menacingly overhead.
But wait! There's more! INTERPOL also received permission to travel in time and fuck your mother when she was still hot. So when INTERPOL comes for you, young Skywalker, before you reach for your light saber, consider that the big guy in black with the asthma problem just might be your dad.
Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
It doesn't give them universal immunity to do as they will within our borders. Interpol has no police force. It's just an administrative organization that basically acts as a go-between between countries.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/interpol.asp
This modification specifically allows INTERPOL the ability to enter into contracts, own and dispose property and has some ancillary language regarding taxes and immigration.
The real provision that is possibly dangerous is Section 7. (b) Representatives of foreign governments in or to international organizations and officers and employees of such organizations shall be immune from suit and legal process relating to acts performed by them in their official capacity ... http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/International_Organizations_Immunities_Act#Title_I
If an agent of INTERPOL is "just doing his job" then he can do whatever he wants. Fortunately for us INTERPOL is very limited in what it can do.
INTERPOL's constitution is very clear as Article 3 states: It is strictly forbidden for the Organization to undertake any intervention or activities of a political, military, religious or racial character. http://www.interpol.int/public/icpo/legalmaterials/constitution/constitutiongenreg/constitution.asp
Thus, we are safe from the administration asking INTERPOL to conduct operations on US soil. If that charter were to change though... it would be a different story.
Also, Obama's actions have had no change on their status in this regard. They have always had this status.
What? I'm a whackjob that believes in the Illuminati as a secret, nefarious society because I can read and quote the act?
They don't have any of those things, still...they have immunity from search and seizure, meaning they can now send things to and from the USA via diplomatic packages, something they can do in almost every other county in the world, now. The FOI immunity is retarded, because you've never been able to, and it certainly wasn't anywhere in the executive order. The reason you've never been able to, is that INTERPOL isn't part of the US government. You can't send FOI requests to the Canadian Consulate in NYC, either. Well, I'm sure you can send them one, but don't expect an answer. Additionally, this is INTERPOL itself. This means, yes, official documents sent by them can't be searched at the border, and their offices can't be searched, either. It doesn't mean a person who happens to work for INTERPOL can't be searched if they're suspected of a crime, unlike a diplomat. They can be searched, and they can be arrested. I imagine they could say "That suspicious package is property of INTERPOL, not me, you can't search it." Which is true, but if somebody else at INTERPOL says "No it isn't" they can go ahead and search it. No diplomatic plates for their car, either, they can still get a ticket. Further, they don't even actually have their own office, they use desks at the DoJ, so there's no real reason the DoJ would ever need to be trying to search their stuff, anyways! So if it doesn't matter, why make an executive order of it? Like I said, now they can use diplomatic pouches for sensitive information, so it does matter. Finally, as you've already been told, INTERPOL isn't a police agency. Only in "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego" do they have actual powers to arrest people. They're just a agency responsible for forwarading information on international criminals from one nations police to others who might need to know about it. An INTERPOL "agent" can't arrest you, he can tell the FBI that there's an outstanding arrest warrant for you in France, and then the FBI goes and arrests you, while the INTERPOL "agent" stays at his desk at the DoJ.
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
>>This summary is flat out WRONG. It's phrased to start a flamewar. Click the news link, and see what it says
I'm the submitter, and I'd recommend not clicking on the news link. Not only is it wrong, but the Slashdot editors added it in to my submission, which just had a link to the Executive Order and to the UN Parking Ticket Scandal.
>>FOIA might be affected, but they are not immune to crimes.
Incorrect. They are immune (technically, they were already immune - this extends their immunities further). ABCNews is further wrong when it says INTERPOL does not have full diplomatic immunity. If you look at all the categories of possible immunities here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic_immunity_in_the_United_States, INTERPOL agents (and their families to a certain extent) have them all now. There's more kinds of diplomatic immunity than the immunities diplomats have.
They're immune to search, seizure, suit, legal proceedings, taxes, and their families too. Just what I want from a law enforcement agency, eh?
If you don't believe me, read the law yourself. All the source is here:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-amending-executive-order-12425
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive_Order_12425
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/International_Organizations_Immunities_Act
As for FOIA, they were never bound by the FOIA, since they are not a part of the US Government. If you tried to sue them and use discovery to gain access to their records, that was not possible since they were already covered by Section 2(b), which protects them from judicial processes.
Cause you can't get a tan from an amber monitor. If you do, there is something horribly wrong.
Technically they were already immune? That's a rather important technicality ... because you explicitly blamed Obama for giving them immunity from prosecution. In actuality 12425 is the executive order which gave them that ... the one with Ronald Reagan's signature below it.
If these agents work for INTERPOL, doesn't this order (and it doesn't really matter whether it was Reagan or Obama who authorized it) give those INTERPOL members immunity?
Because the Slashdot editors mangled my entry. There was no link to the ABC News article in what I submitted, but I did have a link to the story on unpaid UN parking tickets.
Ah, so a slashdot editor actually managed to improve a submission by linking to accurate information? I'm honestly shocked.
What really irks me is that this actually is a granting of full diplomatic immunity. If you go through the list of all the possible options for diplomatic immunity (it comes in different kinds), INTERPOL now has them all. So, yeah, I called it full diplomatic immunity.
No, it isn't, as your own links state.
Either you don't understand the difference between "immune to prosecution" and "immune to prosecution for official acts", or you don't understand what INTERPOL's official business is in the U.S. Or you somehow think "immunity for some actions" is the same as "full" immunity.
FULL diplomatic immunity means free from prosecution for any and all acts.
Let me spell it out for you.
If I was the French Ambassador to the U.S., and I was caught in L.A. snorting cocaine from from the ass crack of a dead 12 year old boy who I'd just raped and killed (not necessarily in that order), then the worst that the U.S. or local governments could do to to me would be to kick me out of the country -- unless of course France revoked my immunity, which you can certainly imagine happening in this case, but you get my point.
Now if I were an employee of INTERPOL, I would be prosecutable under U.S. and local law. As in NOT full immunity.
Unless you can explain how rape, murder, and drug use are official actions,
And you know what INTERPOL's official business is in the U.S.? Handing information provided by other nations' police forces over to U.S. police forces. That's it. That doesn't cover a very wide variety of actions, thus doesn't provide immunity for a very wide variety of actions, and thus only someone either completely foolish or deliberately stirring shit would call that "full immunity".
If you weren't wrong, I'd agree with you.
If you were any judge of right and wrong, you wouldn't have written such a shitty summary to begin with.
The enemies of Democracy are
They're immune to search, seizure, suit, legal proceedings, taxes, and their families too.
I want to be immune to my family, too!
The same thing that stops the International Red Cross from doing the same, of course. The fact that it's absurd! They do have the exact same immunities, by the way, and have for decades. What stops the Red Cross from doing this, is the immunity is only insofar as they are performing their official duties as members of a public organization. Arresting people isn't in the official duties of a Red Cross employee, and it's only in the official duties of an INTERPOL clerk if play "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego", and if you're gauging their powers off of that, INTERPOL also has a fucking time machine. Did I say clerk, not "agent"? That's right, they're not agents, their only job is to facilitate communication between national police and investigatory forces. They forward warrants and notes on investigations. If somebody robs a bank in Germany and escapes, they forward information about him to all the countries he's likely to have fled to. So, the FBI gets a mug shot and some other info in the mail. Well, the INTERPOL staffer hands it to somebody at the DoJ, and that somebody hands it to the FBI. They can't investigate, and they can't arrest. And Regan gave them immunity from arrest and civil suit. Obama just extended that to the right to use Diplomatic Pouches, just like the Red Cross has. Why does the Red Cross need immunity from search? I dunno, ask them! But I can see why INTERPOL does. When you're at the airport, and that dour security guard wants to search your briefcase and read your notes, do you know he works for? A private security firm. That's a potential security breech, right there. Do you want him having a glance at the FBI's classified files on potential Al Quida cells in France? The FBI doesn't either, so they can't possibly use INTERPOL to forward that info around, they'll have to go through diplomatic channels, which can be slow.
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
Interpol is an organisation whose member are nations and their police. They coordinate information sharing between member states. They don't do police work themselves. The only Interpol employees stricto sensu are administrative staff. That's it. The only "agents" are those of the FBI in the US, or the RMCP in Canada, and so on and so forth for other members. Nobody's going to show up at your door with an Interpol badge -- ever. Or maybe as a joke or a fraud.
That slashdot falls for this right wing scaremongering bullshit is disheartening. Goddamn it, it's not that hard to look shit up on Wikipedia, morons.
Sorry, the article has diplomatic immunity.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
sudo release me
rewriting history since 2109
No, I was correct, and you're the moron.
No, they're not. You may have been thinking of Europol, or you may be lost in your own delusional fantasy. Either way, you're wrong. Interpol has a staff of around 600 people, and a budget of $60 million; the FBI has 32,700+ employees, and a $7 billion budget.
This is, in fact, correct. They are national law enforcement police who are subject to national laws. An FBI agent on loan to Interpol's office in New York receives no immunities or privileges he didn't have as an FBI agent. Obama's order is regarding the organization itself, the Interpol General Secretariat.
From the Wikipedia page on Interpol:
Read that closely: When two police agencies need to co-operate across borders, they go through Interpol. Interpol doesn't investigate and arrest them; national law enforcement does, with Interpol acting as the co-ordinating agency. They don't originate investigations, and they don't make arrests on their own authority--that's the whole point of each country setting up an NCB staffed by locals with the authority to be police officers.
And to be perfectly clear, a national law enforcement officer in the NCB receives no benefit from the order Obama signed, which doesn't confer diplomatic immunity anyway--it's a lesser form of organizational immunity granted to international organizations that applies to Interpol's records and bureaucratic operations, not to their personnel.
Got that? Interpol doesn't have diplomatic immunity, they have International Organizations Immunity:
In other words, if someone from the general secretariat works in the NY office, they don't have to pay NY taxes and their paperwork can't be searched. If they jerk off on the subway, they can still be arrested for indecent exposure.
Thanks for playing, though.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
As WP and the law itself clearly states, agents of International Organizations are immune from prosecution for official acts only.
That is nothing like "full diplomatic immunity", which is immunity from all prosecution.
INTERPOL's official business in the U.S. is one of information coordinator between the police forces of various nations, NOT anything related to actual investigation or law enforcement. They do not arrest. They do not investigate.
So to answer the salient question raised by the summary: Can INTERPOL agents now violate due process or other Constitutional protections within the United States with impunity, is a big fucking NO because any such action would not be an official act and thus not protected.
The enemies of Democracy are
Relax, the posting is just a troll. Read the article.
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
Section 2 (b) as quoted above does apply to Interpol, but that was given by Reagen. Obama just modified what Reagen did to add these sections:
Section 2(c), Section 3, Section 4, Section 5, and Section 6 of that Act.
Section 2(c), which provided officials immunity from their property and assets being searched and confiscated; including their archives;
the portions of Section 2(d) and Section 3 relating to customs duties and federal internal-revenue importation taxes;
Section 4, dealing with federal taxes;
Section 5, dealing with Social Security; and
Section 6, dealing with property taxes.
Morpheus, God of Dreams.
For fuck's sake, you people are so fucking ignorant.
Interpol. Is. Not. A. Police. Force.
It's not a force.
And they don't do police work, any more than the World Postal Union carries letters. They help various member states coordinate police work. They have people's phone number, basically, that's about it. They also have a "most wanted" list or something. Scaaary.
Yep, and that immunity isn't going to impede on your rights in any substantial way anyway. No matter what the whitehouse does, you've still got the full protections of the courts in a manner that the constitution guarantees. If stuff is used against you in a trial, you CAN challenge how it was obtained, if wiretaps happen, you CAN assert your constitutional rights to privacy, and if one of these suits tries and grabs you (They can't) you can damn well have them charged on deprivation of liberty if they havent gone through all the due processes to get a judge to agree on terms compatible with American justice.
Generally its pretty unlikely an American will ever face an international court for stuff done at home, the US govt has been adamant on that, but even if you did, the european courts have a very modern set of evidence laws that make the US ones look draconian. (Ie afaik, American courts seem to permit entrapment by undercover agents for some reason)
I'd not be too worried about this, its just the right blowing fear trumpets again. Where where these people when Bush was rolling out the patriot act anyway?
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
That does not exist. Just like the Universal Postal Union will not deliver letters to your home, nor will you ever be able to lease a phone line from the ITU.
Goddamnit, you people are so fucking stupid, it's unconscionable.
In December of 2009 the FDA duped Interpol to achieve illegal kidnapping and deportation of herbal formulator Greg Caton: http://www.naturalnews.com/027750_Greg_Caton_FDA.html Whatever you may think of Greg Caton and his herbal products, this was an illegal kidnapping by US officials. This executive order was likely to cover their asses after the fact.
It's an international organization.
"American Democracy is asking for a cup of coffee and getting to choose between Coke or Pepsi." - Unkn
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
I understand the "our country" probably referring to the USA. What is the other country in the "both countries" that you're referring to? You are aware, I hope, that INTERPOL is an organization comprised of 188 nations... including the USA?
The bizarre world you suggest where diplomatic immunity grants you the right to snatch and grab others obviously doesn't exist. Otherwise, why use INTERPOL? Why not just get a diplomat from another country to do it?
by this logic, why not just use the military, after all NATO has diplomatic immunity and our forces are part of NATO. This article is just tinfoil hat wearing.
If you read the supplied Snopes link, it will tell you that the local governments have the right to decide upon the legality of warrants passed on by Interpol, meaning they are allowed only as much latitude as the states deign to grant. The local governments decide on the legality, the local governments send law enforcement if needed, etc. Interpol does not of those things. Interpol doesn't even issue warrants, it requires one of the member countries to do so. They simply pass them on to the necessary recipient.
Interpol does NOT have a police force, it does not conduct criminal investigations, and it does not make arrests. It acts as a data manager of sorts, for any member nations, coordinating information, passing warrants as needed from one member country to another, etc. They are basically an administration/secretarial service on an international scale. Whatever odd idea of Interpol people may have gotten from the Bond flicks or whatnot, are not quite accurate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol
For those that don't want to read through all of the Snopes/NYTimes information:
These are the same standard rights that are granted to some 70+ other international organizations. These additional rights were not granted to Interpol because it did not have a local office on US soil at the time. This was submitted prior to Bush leaving office and the State Department suggested approving it so that Interpol had the same legal status as other international organizations. It was not completed before Bush left office however. This is a bit of house cleaning to complete the request.
Almost all of what Interpol does is send info around. So if it sends info to the US, it's for the US DOJ. When it's in the DOJ's hands, it's in the DoJ's hands, and it's not magically tainted as immune to laws or something just because it was sent through Interpol -- that's just retarded.
No, what it protects is that if information sent by Interpol to a third member transits through the US for some reason (say, an Interpol employee or, more likely, a member states' delegate transits through the US with a bag of papers) it can't be seized. Not because Interpol wants to hide things from the US (although I can't stop you from believing that) but because it could be used to harass the organization (think subpoena granted by some random judge), or, more likely, because security people in airports could want to have a look at it, and they shouldn't have to be trusted with that info.
Not necessarily. If you look at the quote, it states, "The NCB is the designated contact point for the General Secratariat, regional offices and other member countries..." There's nothing there that says that the officers at the NCB work for Interpol. In fact, most likely, they don't.
To analogize, Interpol does for warrants what a hub does for network packets. It handles the logistics of ensuring that all member nations of Interpol receive the warrant for an international fugitive. In this analogy, the NCB is like the host computer's network card. It takes the warrant from Interpol and ensures that the law enforcement agencies within the host nation know who to look for. Just as your network card is separate from the hub that sends the packet, the NCB isn't part of Interpol.
We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
This is major tinfoilhatism on your part.
The two things you quote mean the same thing.
You're quibbling over the meaning of "actual investigation". Interpol does not perform investigations. They collate the information resulting from investigation. I don't know how it could be clearer. Want an analogy? Google Maps does not make maps nor do they operate satellites. They collect maps and satellite pictures and display them. Want a car analogy? Ok. Ebay is not involved in car making. However you can buy a car on eBay. But they won't even deliver it to you. But you can use their services to buy a car. OMFG you just said they're not involved in making cars, yet they're making cars available!
That which you quoted is section 2b. This was *already* given to them by the original order as signed by Ronald Reagan. Obama isn't granting them the rights under 2b, because Interpol already had them all along and nobody noticed. Please see the original order: Executive Order 12425. Notice that 2b is not listed in the "exceptions", meaning that they have the rights under 2b.
-- Joren
That section doesn't pertain to anything we're discussing here. Congrats for being part of the FUD.
I know it's a little complicated, but basically in 1983 Reagan signed an executive order granting Interpol international organization status, which just means they get certain (mostly tax- and customs-related) protections and privileges. Section 2(b) of the act defining those privileges is what you quoted above, and is what Reagan gave them. Now, Reagan excepted Interpol from certain protections, viz Section 2(c), Section 3, Section 4, Section 5, and Section 6. These exceptions are what Obama has just withdrawn. Go ahead and read them, they pertain partly to taxes and social security, and also protect the property of international organizations (all of them, not just Interpol) from seizure and search.
So either you don't really understand what's going on or you're just fearmongering. As to the whoever started this, well, that was pure FUD.
How is Interpol (or another international organization) going to harm an ordinary citizen ...
When you can't bring them to justice? Any way they want.
Just like any other police functionary in a situation where he is himself beyond the reach of the law.
There are LOTS of examples of such behavior, historical and current, domestic and foreign. Most of the laws and legal precedent put in place to stop or redress this behavior are exactly what just got waived. ... in the course of their official duties?
How do you prove they were acting OUTSIDE their "official duties" when you can't bring the legal system to bear?
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
This country soverignty has been slowly eroded over the years. The founding father's effort is now all lost. Time to fight the 2nd Independence war in 2012.
Reading a bit much Ayn Rand, have we?
1) RTFA, and read the rest of the comments in this thread. The overall effect of this executive order is essentially nil. Also read up on what INTERPOL's actual function is -- it hardly threatens our sovereignty (direct these complaints toward NATO, the UN, and any other alliances that we have entered)
2) The "founding fathers" set up a pretty decent government. However, they were not infallible, and provided avenues to amend their documents for that very reason. I imagine that most of them would balk at the godlike status with which they are treated today.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Don't need no stinking FBI to do this. DHS (dept. homeland security) already has that authority granted under the Patriot Act. It's called Suspension of Habeous Corpus and the only agency granted that suspension was DHS. So they already have the right to grab you without warrant or charges and hold you as long as they like for any reason so long as the grab is done by DHS or under the Order plus they have to right to tell you to shut up or they can grab you.
Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
The principle of diplomatic immunity is ancient and absolute.
Other countries grant the same to select organizations, including diplomatic staff, on their soil, and have for thousands of years.
Doing so for INTERPOL is really unremarkable to all but the tinfoil hat crowd. And, of course, to the teabaggers.
As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
They hold international crime databases, among other things. If you'd actually read up on it, there's a whole list of things they do, including training, crisis response, secure international police communications, etc.
Why is this problematic? Let's say, for example, you're wrongly added to a list of international child molesters, and when you get to Thailand, they arrest you. You ask to see the database that holds your name. Right here, I'd imagine there would normally be no problem. But if they decide to pull a Bush (see - I'm nonpartisan) and say that everything is a secret, there is shit-all you can do, since the database is inviolate, and courts cannot compel a search or seizure, or even subpoena their staff members.
Also, the bit about secure communications is of interest to me, since it was a big part of what Sam Knott was all about later in his life. Again, transparency is a good thing here.
>>I felt it was pretty obvious that my point was that people should make up their own damn minds after reading multiple sources of information, including primary sources.
And my point was that if you're going to add in secondary sources, the editors should at least make sure they're not, you know, wrong.
>>After just a quick glance, that ABC article offers links to twelve primary sources. So I hate to break it to you, but that article wins the battle of primary sources.
Holy hell! 12! Obviously a hyperlink to the trout commission lets them win the battle.
I hate to break it to you, but the three references I gave you are the entire bit of law in question.
Don't the tinfoil-hat brigade even bother to read articles before deciding they confirm their worst nightmares?
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur (anything said in Latin sounds important)
What? I'm a whackjob that believes in the Illuminati as a secret, nefarious society because I can read and quote the act?
You apparently failed to read beyond the part you emphasized, as the next words show how silly this whole affair is: "as is enjoyed by foreign governments." All your quote says is, INTERPOL is to be treated the same as every foreign government that has an embassy in the US. There is literally nothing to get excited about here.
In the beginning the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry and is widely considered as a bad move.
"Hopefully the worst we'll see from this is INTERPOL agents ignoring their speeding tickets" Good.. I hope they don't.. at least until the American Embassy in London gets round to clearing the > £200,000 they owe the city for their unpaid congestion charge.