Chevrolet Volt In a Gasoline-Only Scenario

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Chevrolet Volt In a Gasoline-Only Scenario

Posted by kdawson on Monday January 11, 2010 @10:25PM from the sing-the-auto-electric dept.

s122604 sends in a performance review of the Chevy Volt, paying particular attention to what happens after the initial plug-in capacity has been depleted. This reader adds, "The review indicates that the performance is adequate, and perhaps better than anticipated. If the Volt can deliver technically, especially with the possibility that it could retail for less than expected (WSJ subscription may be required), does GM have a potential hit on its hands?" "How well will General Motors' Chevrolet Volt drive once it gets past its 40 mile all-electric driving range and starts to rely on power generated by its gasoline engine? That's been a question for both critics and fans of the Volt, and with just 11 months to go before this car hits the market, I got the answer."

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Oh great, another subdized vehicle... by Rogerborg · 2010-01-11 22:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

...that's still too expensive for Joe Shiftworker. Doesn't it just give you a warm fuzzy to see people driving past you in cars that you can't afford to buy because the Government gouged you so hard in order to give your tax money to the people who can afford to buy them?

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1. Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... by DrugCheese · 2010-01-11 22:51 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Or gave the money to the car manufacturer
  
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2. Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... by hey! · 2010-01-11 22:54 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I dunno.
  When the Model T was introduced, it cost the equivalent of around 20K$, about half what this car is going to go for. But competing cars were more in the $50K to $70K range, so $40K is not too bad, and somewhat less than that (as the article says might happen) would be quite practical for many working people *given that there are operational savings*. It could well be a modest success at a price like $35K.
  The cost of the Model T drop from $20,000 in current dollars to $12000 and then to under $10000, making it practical for the workers who assembled it to buy one. That's economies of manufacturing scale. The Volt has potentials for such economies of scale as the purchase expensive new parts like large batteries attracts investment and initial development costs are recouped. A modest hit with new technology is hard to achieve, but it will drive down cost and drive up profits more quickly than throwing a new skin on the same old platform would, where economies of scale have already been accounted for.
  
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3. Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... by WaywardGeek · 2010-01-11 22:57 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  New technologies almost always target the high-end first, and later move down to the middle and low-end products. That's because initially there are no economies of scale from high-volume manufacturing. As the high-end ramps to reasonable volume, technolologies, like the batteries, will drop in price, allowing cost effective medium-end offerings. Take a look at the Tesla cars. Their first (the Roadster), is > $100K. Their second is expected to be around $57K. They plan a third in the $35K range, but first, their Model S has to succeed.
  Anyway, the government is trying to help you get into a Chevey Volt, to the tune of about $7,000. Your price wont be $40K, you'll pay $33K. Given the performance and specs, it's not unreasonable, though if they could drop a few K, it'd sell a lot better. They'll also have a Cadillac version, but they plan cheaper versions in the future.
  
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4. Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... by Ritz_Just_Ritz · 2010-01-12 00:04 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Do you honestly think people are going to pay US$30-40k for a compact car that (feature-wise) compares to a US$16k Toyota Corolla?
  Other than the deep pocketed early adopters and people who want to flaunt their "greenness", I think the sales of the Volt are going to be bleak.
  And even if they sold every one of their stated 8000 unit capacity (in the first year), they're losing money on each one AND reliant on a government subsidy to close the sale.
  This has epic failure written all over it even though it seems to a casual observer to be a "nice product."
5. Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... by Rogerborg · 2010-01-12 00:34 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I'll type this really slowly to make it easy for you to understand:
  The government is not trying to help me get into a Volt. They're taking money from me in order to help someone else get into a Volt.
  
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6. Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... by Beezlebub33 · 2010-01-12 02:27 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  If you are referring to the Clinton years. The deficits were high until the Republican takeover of Congress.
  This is simply wrong. Under Clinton the deficit got consistently smaller and smaller, starting in 1992. The Republican takeover occurred in 1994. See the CBO data. Or take a look at the following graph.
  
  And I would agree with those that think the gigantic spike in 2009 is really, really scary.
  
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7. Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... by codewarren · 2010-01-12 02:35 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Irrelevant. Working class doesn't pay cash for cars so $40k is barely relevant... To them the bottom line is how much it costs per month - and since this can be compared to fuel costs per month, the conversation with the salesman is going to be "yes it costs this much more per month for the car, but this much less for fuel"
  It's a question of whether one can offset the other. Can it?
8. Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... by pnewhook · 2010-01-12 03:01 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  The biggest budget deficits ever were under Bush and Regan. Republicans claim a platform of low spending and low taxes, then turn around and invoke the biggest spending and tax hikes to cover it. The Republican media spin army is LYING to you.
  Responsible government seem to only lie with the Democrats (unfortunately for the overall democracy). And I believe this is a recent phenomenon, probably since Regan.
  
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9. Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... by KeithJM · 2010-01-12 04:59 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  The top 1% pays less than 42% of the taxes.
  You know, you could reword that as "The top 1% pays over 40% of the taxes!" Do those top 1% use 40% of the roads, military, medicaid, social security and welfare? I'm not saying they aren't getting the full benefit of access to our society, but clearly they aren't exactly freeloading on the goodwill of the 99% of the people who are paying the other 59% of the taxes.
  
  They also only earn about 22% of the country's income, despite paying 40% of the taxes.
On Hybrid Vehicles by Anonymous Coward · 2010-01-11 23:00 · Score: 5, Interesting

How come all hybrid vehicles comes in the form of Gasoline / Battery ?
How come there is no hybrid vehicle that is in the form of Diesel / Battery ?
Do you know that diesel engines is much more efficient than that of the gasoline engine ?
And if we are really into the "Green" thing, why must we stuck with the gasoline engine ?
Why can't we change to Diesel / Battery instead, for hybrids ?
Can someone who knows much more about this give some comments, please?
Thank you !
1. Re:On Hybrid Vehicles by dunkelfalke · 2010-01-11 23:20 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  The problem is that a Diesel engine is very heavy and expensive. Most hybrids are made for short trips so it would be a great waste of resources to carry around a heavy engine. Hybrid gasoline engines have a somewhat different cycle (Atkinson cycle) than normal gasoline engines (traditional Otto cycle) and thus are more economical. Add the weight savings compared to the heavier Diesel engines (especially with a particle filter) and you'll see why there are no Diesel hybrid cars - it just isn't worth it. Lorries, trains and ships are made for very long range and there a Diesel hybrid is much more practical, especially in the case of ships and trains where the Diesel engine is often only connected to the generator so it can be in its most efficient revolution speed the whole time and (because of the constant speed) have a very long life.
  
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2. Re:On Hybrid Vehicles by afidel · 2010-01-12 02:55 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Dude, every car for sale in the first world should last for ~100k miles without any major issues. If a car has problems before then it's probably has some manufacturing fault specific to that vehicle, not a design fault. Most cars can make it to 200k miles without too many costly repairs. It's the *consumers* of new cars that are on a 3 year lease cycle, and I thank them for that because it means they have payed for the majority of the depreciation without using up a corresponding percentage of the vehicles useful life.
  
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3. Re:On Hybrid Vehicles by natehoy · 2010-01-12 02:59 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  In 2002, I was in the market for a new vehicle. I wanted good fuel mileage, so at the end of my search I was looking at two vehicles, a Toyota Prius (which were pretty new at the time) and a VW Jetta TDI. Test drives made it no contest. I chose the TDI. It was somewhat cheaper, handled better, got better fuel mileage for my purposes, and included some niceties like a sunroof and more room. I was also concerned since the Prius was so new, whereas the TDI's been around for a very long time.
  Most of my driving at the time was on the highway, and the TDI gets better highway mileage than the Prius. I don't know if that's true of today's models - I think VW added some horsepower to the TDI in '08 or '09 and may have cut the mileage, where the Prius probably gets better mileage since that's its major goal. The Prius also has a few more years under its belt and certainly has a decent track record - they aren't dropping like flies at least.
  Fast forward 85,000 miles and 7 years, and I'd be sweating a battery replacement pack right about now on the Prius. I did have to replace the timing belt and THAT wasn't cheap, but it's nothing compared to a new battery pack.
  When I first bought it, Diesel was a good bit cheaper than gasoline, too. That has since reversed, but I still get better miles-per-dollar than my wife's already pretty efficient Pontiac Vibe gasoline engine. Had a chosen a Prius, I'd probably be spending a little less on fuel now (maybe about $200/year), but I refer you again to the $3500+ battery pack, which is enough money for me to buy more than a THREE YEAR supply of Diesel fuel outright even if Diesel was at $4 a gallon.
  I won't say the TDI is completely trouble-free, it's a VW with its share of problems. I've replaced a few expensive parts that really shouldn't have broken, and there are a few things that are broken that aren't worth fixing (front door "open" sensors are both shot, but at $500 a pop, they can stay that way). But it's still a comfortable, responsive, enjoyable car that gets great fuel mileage. Carries a couple of large kayaks on top without complaint, too. :)
  I don't honestly know how much this car would benefit from any sort of hybrid tech. I suppose it might be useful to put a smaller battery in it and have a "booster motor" with regenerative braking, so when I come to a stop some of that energy could be stored to get moving again. But I'm not sure if there would be any significant savings.
  
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Qualitative journalism by alexwcovington · 2010-01-11 23:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

The classic problem with selling new cars is that the people who can afford to buy them don't care about efficiency. They want a car that will dust whoever's next to them when they take off from a stoplight, and looks/drives sporty and/or like a Cadillac.
Car reporters take this a step farther and don't even care how much the car costs to buy or operate, just how it feels to be behind the wheel. So in the end, cheap cars never get positive press, and efficient cars only get it if they play to the luxury-class tastes of Car and Driver.

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Re:I'd rather have more batteries by iangoldby · 2010-01-11 23:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

The article explains this. Apparently their research shows that the 40 mile all-electric range hits the sweet-spot for most American commuters.
Make the batteries bigger and you still have to have the gas engine for when you visit your cousin 300 miles away. Make the batteries smaller and you need to run the gas engine even for your daily commute.
Sounds like the perfect compromise to me.
Read article without subscribing by amaiman · 2010-01-12 00:06 · Score: 4, Informative

You can read the full WSJ article without subscribing by using the "Email" link at the bottom of the preview. The link you'll get in your mailbox will lead to the full article (this works for all WSJ "subscriber only" articles.)
Re:Duh by Cyberax · 2010-01-12 00:52 · Score: 4, Informative

"What is its fuel-performance when batteries are depleted?"
About 50 mpg. YMMV.
Re:Duh by BlueScreenOfTOM · 2010-01-12 03:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

I have to admit, that's got to be the best use of YMMV I've seen yet.
Because it's time I benefited from gov't spending. by FatSean · 2010-01-12 04:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

My pockets have been picked since I started working to fight useless wars and fund an enormous, expensive and increasingly ineffective military. Not to mention the soaring spending rates on police agencies from local to Federal which reduce my freedoms.
The money being spent on Volt subsidies is nothing compared to handouts to corn farmers. It's a pittance compared to money we just hand over to other nations.

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