Gran Turismo 5 Delayed

RogueyWon writes "The Times is reporting that Polyphony Digital's Gran Turismo 5, likely to prove a key title for the PlayStation 3, has been delayed indefinitely, despite an expectation that it would be released relatively early in 2010. The delay seems likely to impact Sony's plans to bundle the game with the PlayStation 3 console in time for the important spring sales period in Japan."

Comments

404 and updated news

[sopssa]

Since the linked article just returns 404, here's EuroGamer's one.

Also note "Update: In related news, Sony Europe has said that the delay is "only applicable for the Japanese market"."

Gran Duke Nukem Turismo...

[Rivalz]

I remember I bought the PS3 for this game when it first came out.... Now I played their demo which I didnt like very much. Too much anticipation for something builds up my hopes only to crush them. When something that has been in dev for 5 years like too many hands were in the pot. Anyone else feel that way like some games that get announced and delayed feel hollow. Like they've been built from the ground up only to be stripped down for scrap then rebuilt. You end up with something like a rushed sequel when there was no original to reminisce about the glory days. Maybe I'm wrong but thats just my feelings.

Re:Gran Duke Nukem Turismo...

[RogueyWon]

I remember reading an article, when the PS2 was in its infancy, that the three franchises it needed to have installments in to cement its dominance (the PS2 wasn't actually an instant mega-success) were: Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy and Gran Turismo. Now, you could argue that list is a little too exclusive, but there's certainly a nugget of truth in there.

And now this generation, the PS3 is in a less-than-commanding position, and despite now being several years into this console generation, gamers outside of Japan can only purchase one of those franchises for the PS3. For this reason, I suspect Sony are actually pretty nervous about this delay; you're by no means alone in having bought a PS3 primarily for GT5.

Of all the reasons for the delay, there's only one I can think of that makes any real sense to me. This is that Polyphony have taken a look at the recently-released Forza 3 and have, correctly, realised: "This has redefined the realistic racing-sim genre. Nothing we have put out so far has had anything like the feature set or the robustness of this. We need to match Forza 3's feature set, while going beyond it in terms of track and car selection if we don't want underwhelming reviews and sales."

Competing with Forza 3 properly would mean having a proper damage model, having opponent driver AI that is far better than anything we've previously seen in a Gran Turismo game, having all of Forza's advanced online options, such as the auction house, and allowing for the kind of visual customisation of cars that Forza 3 allows. Given that Gran Turismo games to date have basically been updates of the original with better graphics and more cars, but no changes to fundamental features (AI in particular), this may have been a bit of a culture shock for them. But then, Forza 2 and 3 have both come out since the release of Gran Turismo 4, and have provided Polyphony with the kind of competition within the realistic racing genre that they've never had before.

Fortunately for them, the genre is a bit sparser than the first person shooter market, so they probably don't have to fall into the Duke Nukem Forever trap of trying to out-feature a rapidly evolving set of competitors.

Re:Gran Duke Nukem Turismo...

[Sycraft-fu]

Every once and awhile there's a game that takes a long time in development that comes out really good, but in general, once they go past a couple years it is a good bet they are going to suck. There's just only so much time you can usefully spend on a game. In part this is because technology moves fast, so at some point you have to commit things and put together a final product. If not, you do get a DNF scenario where you keep spending time upgrading shit and not doing anything.

The problem is that game development usually happens in two stages. The first stage is the long one which is gathering things together. This is getting concepts, art, the engine, and shit like that all put together. More or less, getting all the ground work done that you can actually build a game. The amount of time that takes can be a bit indeterminate. However, then, when you are ready, you have something of a crunch time where you start applying that all to actually put together a game.

Well it seems that some devs have real problems moving out of the first phase in to the second. They want to perpetually be messing with designs and new technologies and such and never freeze things where they are, and crank out an actual product. They seem to think you can have both and you really can't. At some point you have to stop with trying to add things and get down to implementing what you've got. That also has to be done in a reasonable time frame, or your stuff will be stale by the time it gets out.

Re:Gran Duke Nukem Turismo...

[RogueyWon]

Part of my problem with GT5 so far is actually that they've shown quite a lot; and it's all been underwhelming. I played GT5 Prologue and leaving aside the slimmed down options and feature-set (which you'd expect from a Prologue title), it was just GT4 with high def graphics.

I remember an almost physically painful sense of disappointment as I played it. The AI opponents were still acting exactly as they did in GT4 - following a pre-defined route around the track with almost no ability to react to the player, or indeed to each other. By contrast in Forza 2 (we didn't have 3 at the time), the AI would duck and dive when you were up close with it, and put real pressure on you when chasing you. Forza 3 takes this even further, by allowing for AI which will sometimes make very human mistakes. I had a spectacular moment in-game the other night, where in a Class A race, I went into a corner with a fraction of a second's lead over the second placed car, noticed him trying to pass me on the outside in the corner, thought "he's going way too fast for this" and then found out I was right, as he spun off the track. Things like that don't happen often, but they do mean that if there were a racing-game AI equivalent of the Turing Test, Forza 3 would come pretty close to passing it. But GT5:Prologue gave absolutely no indication that PD have any intention to replicate this. The AI was just the same old rubberband.

The lack of a damage model in Prologue was particularly bad, though it's reassuring to see that this is apparently being addressed for the final game. This isn't because I like smashing up cars; it's fun in the Burnout games, but in a GT or Forza title, I'd rather be winning races. It's more because having a damage model in place influences driver behaviour. Back when I was playing GT3 and GT4, I used to cheat horribly. I knew that with no damage model, I could use walls and even other cars to "bounce" myself around corners at speeds I'd never manage with "proper" grip or drift turning techniques. It was worse in multiplayer; sitting around a TV with friends playing GT3 and GT4 would usually degenerate into a game of high-speed dodgems. Fun at first, but it does get old fast. Doing the same with Forza 3 produces a far better experience, that remains fun for a lot longer, as people start to actually race properly.

Re:Gran Duke Nukem Turismo...

[RogueyWon]

Yes, I agree that iRacing is a more realistic simulation. Unfortunately, I'm primarily a gamer rather than a racer (I've thrown a car around a track on track days a few times, but that's about it), and this is where iRacing falls down badly compared to Forza 3 and Gran Turismo. Those series have historically struck a pretty fine balance between realism and fun. The entry curve on iRacing is pitched just a bit too high for me.

Re:Gran Duke Nukem Turismo...

[Tjebbe]

There's casual and there's casual. If you want an arcade racer, sure your money is well wasted elsewhere. However if you want to have a more simulation-like experience on specific known tracks with cool cars, but are a casual gamer in the sense that you don't want to invest a few working weeks to unlock those, the original comment stands. I kind of have the same gripe with local multiplayer games (like on the wii) that make you unlock the multiplayer fun in singleplayer. Don't know how GT works in this sense (never played it), but if it does, that sucks for those kind of casual players. Sometimes there are unlock codes, but not always.

Re:Gran Duke Nukem Turismo...

[ciderVisor]

Those series have historically struck a pretty fine balance between realism and fun. The entry curve on iRacing is pitched just a bit too high for me.

Wot he said.

The closer you get to a perfect simulation of the real world, the quicker the fun aspect goes downhill. I even found GT4 to be 'too real' and sold it on after reluctantly coming to the realisation that while it looked gobsmackingly good, playing it just wasn't very entertaining.

Forza 3, OTOH, has proved to be a winner in our house. The grind/reward balance is just right, you can casually pick it up and advance your career in 10 minute chunks, and it looks great, too. If you want a harder challenge, you can fine-tune the driving aids to make it more like driving a real car.

I can imagine that some people want a 'Guitar Hero' that requires as much skill as a real guitar to play but I suspect the learning curve would just make it unapproachable for the general gamer populace.

Re:Gran Duke Nukem Turismo...

[Alizarin Erythrosin]

But GT5:Prologue gave absolutely no indication that PD have any intention to replicate this. The AI was just the same old rubberband.

I'm not so sure that the AI in GT3/4 was a rubberband model. If you had a really good car for the race, you could win by laps, or large amounts of time quite easily. A car that was too slow, and, well, you were bringing up the rear. It seemed like each car in the race was destined to finish in a certain spot, and you have to beat the fastest car to win. They drove a perfect race at the pace the car would allow, and you just had to do better, or have a faster car.

The next DNF?

[S.O.B.]

Is Gran Turismo 5 using the same engine as Duke Nukem Forever?

Re:The next DNF?

[Anonymous Coward]

This series of ingame screen-shots might bring some light to the situation: http://i.imgur.com/ZnQAr.jpg

Re:The next DNF?

[LoudMusic]

Did Not Finish? ;)

So these guys keep wanting to prove my point!

[AbRASiON]

For the past 2 to 3 years I have been harping on at numerous forums how I'm not entirely convinced that Polyphony Digital actually know what the hell they are doing.
GT4 was a splendid game for the time, the physics were great for a PS2 and 'semi' realistic racer (see: Proper PC Sims for insane physics but much much more niche) the menu music was nice and I liked how they didn't throw cars at you like dollar notes to a stripper, I had to 'bond' with my first car and work my way up with it. I had that MX5 for about 50 races.

Now, if you actually read any articles and interviews, the GT guys seem to want to add every single possible gametype to the game.
WRC, F1, Nascar, 'standard' racing cars and of course modified real cars too. Apparently they are going to be able to handle the driving physics and engines for all these types (oh and motorbikes in the latest news articles!)
I think they are diluting the hell out of the game just trying to throw anything and everything at it.

Forza has a few good things going for it, for one it has probably some of the best rumble and audio queues in a racing game since Rallisport challenge 2. As ridiculous as it sounds, you feel as if you really can feel the track / wheel traction just from a controller. The audio is very good at distinguishing traction, the rumble is just right and combined they work well.
GT however has been re-using the same 'arcade style' traction squeel which sounds like it came out of Outrun since GT3.
No, I'm not joking, go and play GT3, GT4, GT4 Prologue, GT5 Prologue, GT5 Limited Jap demo, GT HD Concept and finally GT Academy - the tire squeel sound is not only the same, it's just plain annoying!

While I'm at it, they keep releasing things like GT HD Concept, GT5 Jap Demo, GT5 Prologue, GT Academy (Europe series and Aus/NZ series!) and I believe I'm missing one of the GT5 demos too... can I just be blunt and say, where the heck is the game for goodness sakes? Now in the time that GT4 has shipped, Turn 10 under Microsoft have shipped Forza 1, Forza 2 and Forza 3, furthermore it's not like they "madden'd!" the Forza series, each game had quite a fair while between each release with substantial changes to them and improvements.
Example Forza 1 and 2 had crappy emo rock thrashy music in the menus which just got on your nerves, whereas GT4 - credit where credit is due had this very laid back elevator style music you could (and would) comfortably listen to all day in a 12 hour rainy Sunday racing and upgrading session. Now Forza 3 has some pretty relaxed menu beats, rewind feature (best thing EVER for anyone who isn't an extreme racer) You've got brilliant graphics, a car trading and buying system - etc.

Also if you listened to the 1up podcasts about 18 months back Shane Bettenhausen quoted the Polyphony GT guys as basically saying "we're the best, we don't care about the competition we literally haven't even seen Forza 1 or 2" this arrogance frankly pisses me off as I just want a good product from both companies. Forza 2 most certainly WAS worth PD looking at, there are several improvements. (FWIW They finally did sneak a peak at F3 mid 2009 if I recall, the game was delayed a few months later)

So why am I posting this? I'm basically sick of speaking to mates or anyone really about games and when GT comes up it's "wow, amazing, best ever, insane!" along with "GT5 will be best/better/amazing" along with "Forza is arcadey shit" (Me:) "Have you played it?" "Nah but I've seen it!" - that's a real conversation I've had with not 1 but 2 normally intelligent people.
I love my PS3, vastly more than my 360 and genuinely dislike the business model of XBLive Gold, dislike the nickel and diming, dislike the reliability issues and I still purchased a 360 JUST for Forza 3 and it was worth every cent.

I may as well get the whole rant out there.
GT5 Prologue, no car modding? for 60$ AUD (40$ US?) you have to be bloody joking!
Also, I may be called a heathen but between the good feedback audio, controller rumble

Re:So these guys keep wanting to prove my point!

[TheKidWho]

For the past 2 to 3 years I have been harping on at numerous forums how I'm not entirely convinced that Polyphony Digital actually know what the hell they are doing.

I've been trying to explain this to my friends for the past few years, I loved GT1 and GT2, heck even GT3/4 were entertaining to a degree. But GT was never really a Sim, and with all the crap they are trying to throw into GT5, it won't be a sim either. It's just a fun racing game IMO.

Re:So these guys keep wanting to prove my point!

[bmajik]

The thing most people haven't realized about the GT series of games is that they aren't really racing / simulation games. A friend explained it properly: Gran Turismo is Pokemon with Cars.

Forza1 came out and crushed it, physics-wise. Each successive Forza iteration has embarassed the then-current GT game in terms of accuracy of driving model.

True, Forza has always lagged in terms of number of Front Wheel Drive Micro-Vans compared to Gran Turismo.

I have a fair bit of actual track driving experience in stock and lightly prepared cars. I've also driven the nordschliefe in meat space [rent a car when you visit Germany; anyone can do it].

People who laud the Gran Turismo games as being the "real driving simulator" are embarassing themselves.

Re:i'm patient

[AbRASiON]

Your post reads EXACTLY like the type of post I was talking about earlier, blind loyalty and dismissive of the competition without trying it properly.
Brand loyalty is fine and all but using some common sense and being objective can help y'know.

Re:Colin McRae DiRT 2?

[RogueyWon]

Dirt 2 is an almost-excellent game, ruined by the inclusion of what I am going to call "Tad". Tad does the voice-overs work for the game. He might even have an actual name, but I've willed myself to forget it. Tad personifies every negative stereotype of the idiot XTREME FRAT BOY XTREME SPORTS XTREME DUDE. I own Dirt 2 for the PS3 and have tried to play it a number of times. The graphics are excellent, the physics are good, if slightly arcadey, and the opponent AI is adequate. But every time I start to enjoy myself, Tad comes out with an even more statlingly hideous inanity than I had previously believed to be possible.

I don't think it's actually possible to hate somebody more than I hate Tad. I have ideas about what I'd like to do to him. They involve a packet of cheap razor blades, a vat of acid, a three square mile stretch of frozen lake, an over-ripe aubergine, 7 ordinary red bricks and a chainsaw. But even these sadistic fantasies are brutally undercut by the knowledge that, as I inflicted agonies fit to tear the human soul to shreds upon him, Tad would probably yell "DUDE! You're IN THE ZONE... you're torturing me to death TO THE MAX!!!!" THIS IS XTREME TO THE MAX!!!!!!"

You cannot turn Tad off. Believe me, I've tried.

So yes, in summary, Dirt 2 had potential, but it also had... some issues.