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Radio Hams Fired Upon In Haiti
Bruce Perens writes "A team of radio ham volunteers from the Dominican Republic visited Port-au-Prince to install VHF repeaters, only to be fired upon as they left the Dominican embassy. Two non-ham members of the party were hit, one severely. ARRL is sending equipment, and there is confusion as unfamiliar operators in government agencies join in on ham frequencies."
The amateur radio operators are absolutely essential in a place where most of the communications structure has failed, and they didn't have much to begin with.
The fact that these guys are being fired upon just shows how much trouble Hatti is in right now. If there's no law enforcement left, just how are the emergency supplies that are moving all to slowly going to wind up in the right hands?
If they knew who these people were... why are they trying to scare away people who are rebuilding communication structures?
If they didn't know who these people were... are they attacking anybody in a moving vehicle hoping they've got supplies they an steal for themselves without waiting in line like everybody else?
And this is why we send in the army.
There's a big difference in the Red Cross these days...
Previously, the Red Cross operated in the black by collecting after a disaster not to benefit the current disaster, but to replenish their funds in reserve so they'd have money to deal with the next disaster, whatever it may be.
Then 9/11 happened. And worse yet, pinheads like Bill O'Reilly dared to attack this strategy by demanding that the Red Cross go all out to help 9/11 victims and spend all of the money it was raising. In effect, this disaster got double-funded... both from the collections after the previous disaster and the collections immediately after.
Now here's the problem: More recent disasters like Katrina and Haiti have been underfunded because the money isn't available immediately after the disaster but until news spreads and people pay for the relief. It just hasn't been the same.
I want our old Red Cross back...
The unsung heroes of any disaster are typically the amateur radio operators. These guys, most of the time using their own equipment, time & money will set up a repeater or HF station so communications can get in and out of a disaster area. These guys always deserve a pat on the back as another of the "first responders". 73's! KB0GNK
It has nothing to do with ham radio operators being targetted... I doubt they even knew (or cared) that the vehicles were filled with communication equipment.
If there's no law enforcement left, just how are the emergency supplies that are moving all to slowly going to wind up in the right hands?
The "right hands"? That's rather arrogant of you. If your city was just washed away or blown to bits, and there's tens of thousands of people roaming the streets looking for food, medical supplies, or anything useful and there's not a uniform in sight, what do you think happens after a few days and people start to get hungry and desperate basic essentials like clean water? In the middle of that, you've got a vehicle (maybe the first you've seen in days or weeks) with well-dressed people and boxes upon boxes of equipment -- you know what the first thought you're going to have is? Fuck! That's dinner. Get the gun.
Morality is a luxury that not everybody can afford. It's like when you've got a person who's gone overboard and they're struggling to stay afloat -- the one thing you never ever ever do is jump in after them. That's a nice hollywood touch, but in the real world that person is desperate and will octopus-death-grip anything that's floating that comes near it -- which includes you. Then you'll both drown. Better to throw them the rope and let them save themselves. Maybe that's callous, but again -- your morality could get you (and others) killed. As such, it's a luxury in a crisis (at best).
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
Morality in the face of danger is what makes some people noble, and others scum. you are dead wrong that "everyone" will act like this when faced with hunger and thirst.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
I want our old Red Cross back...
You can't have it because O'Reilly and a bunch of others played the morality card, which always trumps common sense. The morality card states that all money collected must be diverted to [insert cause], and not stockpiled. The common sense card says disaster preparation requires a plan ahead of time -- you can't fuck around waiting to allocate resources when it hits. Which is exactly what has happened with Katrina, 9/11, Haiti, and many disasters yet to come. We've reduced our position from being proactive (being able to execute a rescue plan immediately because resources are already available) to reactive (waiting until resources are collected and organized before formulating and executing a plan).
But that's okay -- because we can feel good about contributing a dollar here and a dollar there towards those poor Haitians... you know... we'll get there and help them out... eventually...if there's any that are still alive by the time we're good and ready. The new American Way is to cut our noses off in spite of our face, and pressure on the short-term solution, the quick buy, the easy fix, and the fast profit.
And do you know why? Because the boomers need to milk the economy of every penny they can to pay for their exorbinant retirement package. They were raised believing that America would always be in a state of progress and growth, that we were the best, and competition with other countries was a joke. We grew complacent, and while they built out their infrastructure, we drove around in fat SUVs and bought big screen TVs, eschewing long term growth for the here-and-now creature comforts. And now... well now we are mighty fucked. And when people inevitably call me age-ist and that it's a generalization and blah blah blah -- I'll tell them this: you're right, it is discriminatory. It's also not wrong.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
I don't even know where to begin with this... When you say "they", do you mean that everybody in the country has the same mindset, that they all want to shoot you and steal your things? Out there are people needing help. The fact that they are surrounded by thugs makes it more urgent. And yet you want to run at the first sign of adversity. Also, the homeless you've always had with you, even in times of no disaster. If you haven't lifted a finger to help them then, chances are, you're not going to do a thing now.
Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
Yeah, and the ironic thing is that people complain about our "unsightly" antennas--right up until they need what we can do.
With the severe storms we've been having here in souther California this past week, I've been on standby with San Diego ARES in the event communications go down. No major problem so far but I have all my 2 meter gear ready to go if necessary.
KJ6BSO
This ain't rocket surgery.
By "right people" he means people that need the supplies rather than jackshits that will horde everything and try to sell it to starving people for everything they have left.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
Remember Somalia? Warlords there grabbed airdropped supplies and then SOLD them at ridiculous prices. According to the news, the prisons are as broken as everything else, and criminals are running rampant. The Haitian police are nowhere to be found. This is exactly why the US sent in soldiers first, this time.
Morality in the face of danger is what makes some people noble, and others scum. you are dead wrong that "everyone" will act like this when faced with hunger and thirst.
You say that from your well-heated basement with Mom's fridge stocked full of frozen pizza upstairs.
If your kid hasn't eaten for four days, your wife's legs are crushed and need to be amputated, but there's no antiseptic or surgeons for miles, and you're all sleeping under a tree, then being "scum" is not what you're worried about.
unless your an expert on every society and culture in the world you can't tell shit about what a given group of people are going to do. there are cultural influences in how a group of people react that greatly influence how they will react to a situation. haiti for example has a long history of violence and unrest, so it's no suprise there's lots of bottom feeders there willing to shoot at people helping them.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Perhaps it isn't so much about shooting aid volunteers as it is about shooting Dominicans. I imagine you can easily find some Hatinas that feel strong aversion towards them (easily manifested especially in such times?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsley_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihaitianismo
One that hath name thou can not otter
There is ample historical record of people behaving admirably under extremely difficult conditions. Why? Culture and morality. This is a toxic modern idea, that in a crisis it is appropriate for people to devolve to barbarians. Hundreds of hurricanes hit the Gulf Coast before Katrina, and yet nobody shot at the rescuers. Usually, there weren't any rescuers at all, the local people just pulled themselves up and got to work, helping whoever needed it. I frequently see that modern, educated people find such an attitude shattering to their worldview and react to it with vicious hostility whenever it appears in print.
The "right hands"? That's rather arrogant of you.
And it's rather ignorant of you. In situations like this in developing nations, warlords (or gangs or whatever they are in the current country) often hijack the emergency supplies and try to sell them, give them to their friends, or even dump them. If you are bringing aid to an under-developed country, this is definitely something you want to think about. Furthermore when people go hungry, they don't get violent, they get lethargic. Try skipping food for a few days yourself, and see how many faces you want to bash in. No, these people doing the shooting have been stealing enough food all along, and are well fed.
It's like when you've got a person who's gone overboard and they're struggling to stay afloat -- the one thing you never ever ever do is jump in after them. That's a nice hollywood touch, but in the real world that person is desperate and will octopus-death-grip anything that's floating that comes near it -- which includes you.
And it looks like you learned your life-saving skills from Hollywood or some other unreliable source. If you can't throw a rope or something to the person, then you swim up behind them, hold them against your body with your arm around their neck, and sidestroke back to shore. If they grab onto you with the octopus-death-grip, duck under the water and they will let go quickly. If my kid, or friend, or even random stranger is out there drowning and I have nothing to throw, you can believe I will go in after him.
Qxe4
Wow, so you are right and he is wrong, because...?
You brought no arguments to the table. Only insults and “religious” phrase canting.
First of all, you do not define morality at all. So it is physically impossible to agree with you.
Then, common “political correct” “morality”, is so detached from reality, that it can only be described as seriously fucked up and very dangerous. So if you meant that one, your “noble” is my “idiot”. (I’ll explain why this description is justified, below.)
The base mechanism here, on a physical level, is that we humans help others, because we know that this helps us too.
And GP meant, that in reality, in cases where you know that you are going to get a kick in the balls, normal humans don’t help. The concept of just giving and giving and giving, without getting anything back, is a concept, created by those who always just take. The joke is, that if you try to fight it, to protect them, they will fight you, to protect it.
Or in one simple sentence: If not jumping in the water under the delusion that that could save him, and therefore not drowning with him octopus-grabbing you, means I”m “scum“ to you, then I’m proud to be “scum”. Because by throwing a him rope, I will save two people, that with your “noble” method, would both have drowned.
I bet you define morality, as expecting others to give their life for you.
My morality is, that one does never ever expect anything from anyone. One can give something. But if nothing comes back, one will also stop giving something. (As described above.) Because else one has a greedy leech on one’s neck.
I bet that this exact behavior of being used by a leech, is what you see as “noble”, and the behavior of denying to always and forever give away your life for people who are the opposite of thankful, is what you define as “scum”.
And, can I make a wild guess, why that is so?
Because you are the leech. You expect others to give. You just take. And you call that a noble moral. Because it is useful for you.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
What are you basing all this on? (A recent batman movie perhaps?) The vast majority of hungry people in Haiti right now are NOT acting as you believe to be inevitable. Moreover, from the reporting I've read, the hungry people are not the most likely to be violent. The problem that's really worrying people is the gangs - the people that were already criminals vying for power before the disaster, and who (for that reason) are armed, and a number of whom escaped from prison when it crumbled in the quake. They're not hoarding to fill their bellies, they're hoarding because when food is scarce, food is power. You might say they vindicate your theories, but again, they were already at it before the quake, and they are not most of the people in Haiti.
What looks more ignorant? A compound sentence or a common (but annoying) typographical error?
If you have food, and I have a gun and am starving, do you truly believe cultural influences matter that much?
Yes, although probably not as much as personality and upbringing.
If I'm the one with the gun, I'll offer to help you protect your resources as well as contributing my skills and labor in other ways. I find that a fair exchange is far preferable to mindless violence. Whereas, if the situation were reversed, you would apparently rather shoot me and take what I have. So, as I said, while cultural influence certainly has a role there are obviously other factors at play, also.
If you have food, and I have a gun and am starving, do you truly believe cultural influences matter that much?
Do you realize you come across as a person who is trying to justify her own lack of morals, justify why she can be mean to people? Some people are weak cowards, but others are great heros. Since people around here seem to have forgotten wisdom of the past, I'll defer to Victor Frankl, who was a Jew under the Nazis. He said:
We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms--to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.
See how it is? You choose who you are. If you are a hero or villain, it is because that is who you chose to be, even if you never end up in a situation that one might call heroic, or vile.
Qxe4
Well, off course. But if in a situation like that we are going to act just like Animals, trying to survive at any expense, then we are not human beings, we do not have human rights, and we don't deserve to get saved or helped.
If your primitive instincts will overwhelm you, that's ok. But if you will act like an animal and just try to survive at any cost, I'll act as an animal too and do the same. Leave you behind to die, like any animal would do (Animals have a very instinctive understanding of evolution, and they know damn well that they have to let the week die).
Now, if we are going to act like evolved Human Beings, then it's a whole different story. And don't come to me with terrible social stories. I live in Argentina. I've seen things. And I've seen people in shitty economic situations kill to get money for drugs, and I've seen people in even worse situations working honestly all their lives to get their families out of the hole. I've seen people that have got nothing in life and are living on the streets stop at a car accident to help people out of an expensive automobile, without taking anything, or asking for anything in return. And I've seen middle class people still to buy a new TV.
You are either an Ethical human being, or you are not, no matter where or how you are.
WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
Haiti has had, and will continue to have problems. Keep in mind, the US government has given on average $300 million in aid to Haiti per year for the last 5 years. During the early Bush administration, they tried to give money for clean drinking water, but Baby Doc Duvalier took 88% (more than 25 million US) and the Tonton Macoute took more than 4.6 million U$. No clean drinking water. Later the Swiss government had their banks seize the money, and have tried to return the money back to Haiti (but to a non-corrupt government). My next door neighbours' went with their church 5 years ago to Haiti to set up a hospital and (with a dentist who attends the church) perform free dental work. When they returned they said that there is nothing there. Few people are working, they had to pay bribes to both the government officials and local gangs for their 'safety', and still they managed to build a clinic with clean running water, and perform 300 dental surgeries. Not bad for a week. But there is so much corruption. The gangs are so bad. The local population has no work but the population still managed to swell from 6 million to 8 million in 10 years (and still the life expectancy for anyone who makes it past 5 years old is 50). Poverty, disease, corruption, natural disasters, illiteracy, crime, few natural resources, a local population that manages to squander what little foreign aid manages to reach them -- Haiti has it all! On the other side of the island, the Dominican Republic is doing quite well. Tourism, foreign investment. The truth is, since independence, Haiti has had a new fresh coup-de-tat government every 6.25 years (32 coups in its 200 year history). Necklacing is not uncommon in Haiti, as is corrupt government. The fact that a group of radio amateurs got shot at in Haiti is unremarkable. Its a sad tale, but not unexpected.
This would be one of the reasons why we're sending our military.
Love,
The USA
This is unequivocally false. I work for the [American] Red Cross and can assure you that ARC does not charge for disaster assistance. If you google: red cross charge assistance ... you will see several hits (snopes, etc) confirming this is a bullshit FUD tactic.
A few days ago I read this interesting account of another way that people can and do sometimes react:
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/man-at-his-best/#
Haiti doesn't have the sort of resources that Northern California does or then did -- and I suspect that there was plenty of looting / similar in the wake of the 1906 quake, too. Just saying, it doesn't take Pollyanna to believe that people sometimes treat others like they'd prefer to be treated.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Gee that's odd. I seem to remember O'Reilly doing a show back then about the 9/11 relief efforts and warning people about scams. As part of this he had several reputable organizations on, the highlight of which was the Red Cross. The Red Cross guys explained that unlike the scam organizations the Red Cross had the money in advance, had already spent a lot of it on 9/11 relief and that the donations go to replenish their fund for the next disaster.
I also remember in the aftermath of hurricane Isabel the Red Cross was there the next morning offering essentials like water. FEMA didn't show up until 4 or 5 days later when some lard-ass government employee ticked off little boxes on a crappy tablet PC so the government would have an idea of the amount of damage done.
Then a year or two later Katrina happens and all of a sudden it's a big media story and oh my god where is FEMA? You know what though, the Red Cross was there early. That is until they started getting shot at. That was perfect though for political vultures like yourself just waiting with baited breath for the next big tragedy to happen so they could use it to beat up their perceived enemies. Of course there have been all kinds of disasters in the world between 9/11 and Haiti so it's quite telling that the one you think of is Katrina. Were there problems with relief in Katrina? Yes. Worse than normal for other disasters of that magnitude? No. Reported on more than others? You bet! I mean right on time to kick off the 2006 election season, it doesn't get any better than that.
Hopefully the rest of slashdot can see through your and your ilk's self-righteous bullshit. Clearly you don't give a crap about the people in Haiti or the Red Cross providing relief or these Hams who risked their lives in an attempt to set up a basic communications network. No, for you it's all about badmouthing other people. Why let a perfectly good disaster go to waste right?
> Do you realize you come across as a person who is trying to justify her own lack of morals, justify why she can be mean to people?
That's because she is such a person. Look at her past Slashdot comments, sadly. From her own words, you can see that she will proudly tell strangers things that she's too ashamed to tell her mom.
Her strategy isn't even rational. Some people hear about the Prisoner's Dilemma and think that being a bad guy is the only way to get ahead, even though it's the worst and most cowardly strategy of them all. The real way to get ahead is to cooperate by default, but to punish the cheaters. Culture describes, among other things, how people expect others to behave. So of course it affects whether one chooses to cooperate or defect.
And no matter how bad things are, some choose to cooperate, like those in your quote.
That's the problem though isn't it - the right wing shouties aren't just "individuals", they command the actions of all those repubs (including the rich ones with lots of disposable income) and can affect where the donation money goes. If they deem the Red Cross to be "unamerican", whoops, there goes all your donation from right wing, middle class white people.
They might be twisted, hopeless and incompetent individual, but don't underestimate the power placed in them by a large portion of America. They can be very dangerous and destructive.
Can't someone just take Haiti? Surely conquerors showing up with promises of food and infrastructure building would be preferred to their current government.
A government which lacks the power to govern also lacks the right to do the same.
When the REAL professionals stop inviting us to come participate in drills and actual disasters, I'll give your point of view some consideration. In the mean time, you just sound like someone that wanted a license but was too dumb to pass the test. Don't they miss you on 4chan?
-W1BMW
(name withheld by request)
Both Afghanistan and Iraq are much safer than you might imagine. The Kurdistan region of Iraq, basically a separate country with its own visa regime, attracts quite a few tourists. In Afghanistan, plenty of people visit; some get around in special convoys or fly, but the Eastern European hitchhiking community has maintained a heavy presence there with only good stories about their interactions with the local people. Yes, there are parts of both countries that are dangerous, but both have small tourist industries.
I don't usually feed Trolls, but here's a ration for you...
1. Hams are much more capable in an emergency than "Professional" operators. Outside your control room or situation vehicle, you barely know how to find your dick to take a piss. Hams are used to operation in field environments and practice at it frequently.
2. Hams own their own equipment and can take it at a moment's notice to the affected area. You gonna uproot your public safety tower at the police station and take it with you? I don't think so.
3. Many Hams like myself own almost exclusively "Professional" grade gear - I own almost all Motorola radios, the same digital units the federal government uses currently.
4. Speaking of authenticity, I'd rather believe from the ARRL this happened than take the word of an anonymous Troll idiot on slashdot that it didn't.
5. Our "fantasy" world becomes "reality" every disaster, time and again. Maybe next time we'll even save YOUR dumb ass, too.
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
What looks more ignorant? A compound sentence or a common (but annoying) typographical error?
Your second sentence most ignorant. It no verb.
Well, this is a good opportunity to invite your neighbors into your radio shack to listen to the ham traffic out of Haiti. Explain how you use that ugly antenna to help people around the world, and how it could might save the lives of their family if something like a terrorist attack or natural disaster disrupted normal communication systems in your neighborhood.
Then maybe they'd feel differently about whether it is "unsightly" or not.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
-- Epicurius
Oh, and next time you talk to Santa Claus, could you tell them that Haiti needs more milk and cookies?
Thanks, bro.
If you have food, and I have a gun and am starving, do you truly believe cultural influences matter that much? Yes, although probably not as much as personality and upbringing. If I'm the one with the gun, I'll offer to help you protect your resources as well as contributing my skills and labor in other ways.
This kind of thing is easy to say while sitting in front of a computer, presumably well-fed. But if there's a limited amount of food and you're starving, how can you say that's what you'll do? What if you had a child to protect as well?
I'm not saying you wouldn't do the right thing, I'm just saying that extremely decent, moral people who survive this kind of disaster routinely talk about the terrible things they did to survive, and how guilty they feel about them. Many of those people are better than I'll ever be, and probably better than either of us. Your morals are important, but so is humility.