EU Overturns Agreement With US On Banking Data

Well done! by N3tRunner · 2010-02-11 14:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

Good for them, way to grow a spine, Europe! Now if only American banks had the same motivation to protect its customers data from the very same agencies.

Re:Well done! by _merlin · 2010-02-11 14:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

But they're on the same side, and they get their buddies into plum jobs - just look at how good Henry Paulson was for them. Why would American banks argue with the American government? Everyone would benefit more if they just agreed to scratch each others' backs. (Well, except for the customers, but who cares about them, right?)
Re:Well done! by Jurily · 2010-02-11 15:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

But they're on the same side
There is no such thing in politics and finances.
Re:Well done! by Xest · 2010-02-11 21:14 · Score: 5, Interesting

British courts did the right thing this week too- they ruled against the British government/US attempts to cover up US intelligence handed to the UK proving that one of our citizens was tortured before being moved to Guantanamo before being eventually released with no charges.
Turns out British intelligence was aware of the torture, which is why most people assumed our foreign office had such an interest in keeping it covered up in the first place.
Despite American threats to withdraw intelligence sharing if the data was released, our courts ruled that the data should be released, so it's a bit of a double win this week in standing up to oppressive American strong arm tactics of threatening to put us at risk from terrorists if we don't do what they say.
Re:Well done! by germ!nation · 2010-02-11 23:39 · Score: 4, Interesting

With regards to the torture thing, we do tend to get these unusual rulings in the UK around election time when there are points to score. I wonder if the ruling would have gone the same way had it happened in June when everyone was still waiting to see which way the wind was blowing.
Re:Well done! by Captain+Hook · 2010-02-12 00:24 · Score: 3, Informative

Actually it's not quite as good of a decision as was being made out once you get past the headlines.
The decision in question was specific to a few paragraphs in a report which the UK government had said had to be censored because the US asked us to keep out of the public - so we did.
At some point, a report in the US publically quoted those paragraphs and so UK courts ruled that since the information was now in the public domain there was no reason not to publish the censored paragraphs ourselves
The decision did however go against the UK governments continued wish to keep the paragraphs censored since those paragraphs basically said the UK knew about and supported torture of a UK citizen.

[It was reported that a new series of interviews was conducted by the United States authorities prior to 17 May 2001 as part of a new strategy designed by an expert interviewer.
v) It was reported that at some stage during that further interview process by the United States authorities, BM had been intentionally subjected to continuous sleep deprivation. The effects of the sleep deprivation were carefully observed.
vi) It was reported that combined with the sleep deprivation, threats and inducements were made to him. His fears of being removed from United States custody and "disappearing" were played upon.
vii) It was reported that the stress brought about by these deliberate tactics was increased by him being shackled in his interviews
viii) It was clear not only from the reports of the content of the interviews but also from the report that he was being kept under self-harm observation, that the inter views were having a marked effect upon him and causing him significant mental stress and suffering.
ix) We regret to have to conclude that the reports provide to the SyS made clear to anyone reading them that BM was being subjected to the treatment that we have described and the effect upon him of that intentional treatment.
x) The treatment reported, if had been administered on behalf of the United Kingdom, would clearly have been in breach of the undertakings given by the United Kingdom in 1972. Although it is not necessary for us to categorise the treatment reported, it could readily be contended to be at the very least cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment by the United States authorities]"
Source: FCO Website : http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/news/latest-news/?view=News&id=21733568

--
These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.

Damn by countertrolling · 2010-02-11 14:27 · Score: 4, Insightful

Now they'll just have to go back to the old fashioned way.

In case of emergency, break law

--
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone

We already know how this works by weirdcrashingnoises · 2010-02-11 14:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

--
sigs... don't talk to me about sigs....

Re:We already know how this works by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-11 14:38 · Score: 3, Funny

Or if that fails..
US: Hello there small child can I see your private parts?
EU Banks: No, my parents said I'm not allowed to show those to anyone.
US: Thats ok, lets keep it a secret between us.

As a US Citizen all I can say is... by l0ungeb0y · 2010-02-11 14:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

About time the EU showed some backbone and told the US where to stick it. The US has bent everyone else over and had their way far too long. Now that the US's economy is a mess, the dollar is weak and getting weaker and the Euro is fast taking the place the Dollar once had, the US needs to be sent a strong, loud and clear message that it's hay day is over and it's going to have to rely upon diplomacy, cooperation and fair play instead of idle threats and ham-fisted foreign policy towards it's allies.

Re:As a US Citizen all I can say is... by rve · 2010-02-11 23:11 · Score: 5, Insightful

The dollar has gained quite significantly since 2007. The Euro's mindshare was the first thing to go in the recession... Not just a chink in the armor, but a forced realization that a defacto currency, from which any country can opt-out at any time, with no central governing authority, but with individual authorities with a poor understanding of how to handle such changes, and with several weak players involved, is not a safe bet in the slightest
The dollar regained gained some, after having steadily declined from about EUR 1.25 to about EUR 0.65
I don't know what you base the idea on that any country could opt-out of it at any time. Such an operation would be purely theoretical, the actual process of leaving the EUR after having joined would take years, carry a staggering cost and would seriously harm the economic outlook of any country attempting it. It's unthinkable, joining the EUR is a one way path.

I'd point to Kosovo for a look at what European "diplomacy" can do... Lots of speeches over the years about "never again," and then a whole lot of nothing when a real stand needs to be made,
It has a whole lot to do with the reluctance towards looking at only one side of an issue. I'd call it a difference in culture between the US and post WW2 Europe. In the US, there is still a strong belief in right vs wrong, good vs. evil. In a conflict, there must be one side that's right and another one that is wrong. Kosovo and Bosnia were solved very decisively by the US, by picking a side, obliterating the other side, and blaming the entire conflict on the obliterated party. It worked, the conflict is over. It no longer matters that the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo later turned out to have been a fabrication, and that the good guys in Bosnia turned out to have been almost as nasty as the bad guys.

I say this not as an ignorant and arrogant American, but as a distant observer..
(...) but this (largely Europeans) fervent anti-Americanism we see touted on /. so often is a rather serious case of not being able to see the forest for the trees. The grass may seems greener on the other side, but it's pretty clear that there's no grass at all over there...
I say this as a half-yank, half-eurofag. In my experience the anti-Americanism in Europe is exaggerated in the US media. Euros just tend to be more 'negative' in general, and many Americans experience any shimmer of doubt or negativity as anti-American. I don't experience anti-Americanism in Europe as worse than anti-Europism in the US, or anti-California-ism in Texas.
Re:As a US Citizen all I can say is... by Almir · 2010-02-12 02:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

As a Bosnian, let me point out that neither Croats nor Muslims in Bosnia were nearly as bad as Serbs. Maybe if you took a bit of time from trying to fit everything into one tidy world view where your neat generalization applies to everything, you'd learn that Serbia went to war with Slovenia, then Croatia, then Bosnia and finally Kosovo. This alone should make it blindingly obvious to anyone who the bad guy is
Because, sometimes there really is a bad guy and someone needs to make him pay.
My apologies if that ruins your neat little theory of Europe vs USA culture.
Re:As a US Citizen all I can say is... by Almir · 2010-02-12 04:06 · Score: 3, Insightful

What is the other side of committing genocide? Please tell me, I'd love to hear you generalize that too.
Again, you're trying to create a generalization that applies to both the American civil war and the war in ex-Yugoslavia. There is no common thread there. We were (five) different nationalities and cultures with different wishes for the futures of our countries. We split, and now we are different countries. I know even you can tell the difference in sides as you went for "almost as nasty" in your initial post. Though, you may want to learn, in a slightly more detailed way, the histories of our countries before playing expert on slashdot.
Of course, none of this bears any similarity to the civil war in USA.

Not forgetting to ... by tobiah · 2010-02-11 14:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

In case of ambivalence, create emergency

--
"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool" - Jane Wagner -

Re:Cool, now nobody has to pay taxes. by Grumbleduke · 2010-02-11 14:49 · Score: 5, Insightful

Americans that want to avoid taxes, can now bank in Europe again.

Right, so to stop a few corrupt individuals and companies in the US avoiding paying tax in the US by banking in Europe, every banking transaction that passes through Europe (or the EU, with 27 countries and over 500m people - that's more than all of North America) should be reported to the US... Something about setting ones own house in order before messing with other people's springs to mind.

Moving on, it is nice to see that the (democratically elected) European Parliament is finally able to stand up to the (appointed) Council of Ministers (and the US); the Lisbon Treaty does have its good points (even if it was pushed through in a rather undemocratic way). Now if only the rest of it could get implemented and the Swedish Pirate Party could get their second MEP into office.

Re:Cool, now nobody has to pay taxes. by BitterOak · 2010-02-11 15:05 · Score: 4, Informative

Americans that want to avoid taxes, can now bank in Europe again. Soon the USA will follow suit and allow Europeans who do not wish to pay taxes to be shielded from Europe.

Nope. Sorry. This has nothing to do with sharing records for tax collection. This agreement allowed intelligence agencies in the U.S. to secretly access banking information for all customers, including non-U.S. citizens. The tax data sharing agreements are separate and above board and require the bank to supply data only on those required to pay income tax in the U.S. (or whichever country they share with). Virtually all countries participate in tax data sharing now, so I'm afraid you can't get out of paying your taxes simply by banking in Europe.

--
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?

Re:Cool, now nobody has to pay taxes. by horza · 2010-02-11 15:12 · Score: 3, Informative

The Americans tax their citizens on their world-wide income, no matter where they live. The reverse isn't true. So why would a rich European want to hide in a high tax, high unemployment country with record gun crime and without a decent health care system? Though I may sound a little harsh on your system, you under-estimate your fellow Americans. My job is to sell luxury real estate to the wealthy, and I also arrange private banking in Monaco. Virtually none of my American clients are eager to avoid paying taxes.I won't name other nationalities, for fear of being accused of stereotyping, but I will say that in my experience Americans are in the very top percentile of honest tax payers. Though you may have problems with corporations, where every tax dodge is purely for the benefit of the shareholder, you should have more faith in your fellow citizens. Overall you can be proud of them.

Phillip.

--
Property for sale in Nice, France

Re:Can someone please explain to me ... by sznupi · 2010-02-11 15:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

For starters, we don't seem to be bombarded with "with us or against us" rhetoric.

Also, current administration has at least enough tact to not encourage negative attitued towards, say, France; or "Old Europe".

--
One that hath name thou can not otter

Oh, it's more sinister than that... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · 2010-02-11 15:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

Actually, as I understand it, this one was more a case of I'll show you yours if you'll show me mine.

The intelligence "sharing" is done precisely because each side could get in legal and/or political trouble for spying on its own citizens without good cause. On the other hand, if it's just foreign intelligence provided by a friendly state, well, that's OK, then. This is as much one in the eye for certain EU governments (whose appointed representatives previously forced this measure through at European level mere hours before the Lisbon Treaty kicked in and meant the elected MEPs would get a say, remember) as it is for the US.

--
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.

Re:Oh, it's more sinister than that... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-11 16:35 · Score: 4, Interesting

As a US citizen, the first thing that came to mind when I read this was "WHOO HOO!"
About the only ones that are going "Oh no!" are the people in my government that feel that they should be able to get away with/do anything they damned well please, and that the rest of the world should just bend over, take it, and like it.
Just to be perfectly clear on the matter, I am VERY much opposed to those tactics from my government.
I am VERY pleased to see the power hungry hands and arms of my government get bitch slapped like this. VERY pleased. The concept of "Soveriegnty" when it is applied to "Foriegn nations" is apparently something my government has serious difficulties understanding.
Re:Oh, it's more sinister than that... by tobiah · 2010-02-11 20:14 · Score: 4, Insightful

Ya, my "whoo hoo" was followed closely by patriot guilt, but I'm over it. Distrust of one's government has always been a key component of American patriotism.

--
"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool" - Jane Wagner -
Re:Oh, it's more sinister than that... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-11 20:28 · Score: 3, Informative

Actually, as I understand it, this one was more a case of I'll show you yours if you'll show me mine.
No. The agreement was unilateral. The US had no obligation to provide the EU with the same information, which was the main reason why it was overturned. At least, that's the main point according to news sources on our side of the Atlantic.
Re:Oh, it's more sinister than that... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · 2010-02-11 23:24 · Score: 4, Interesting

Are you sure you're not confusing this with other recent controversial agreements, such as the extradition of people like Gary McKinnon? That agreement has been controversial both for being asymmetric and for the low standard of evidence and poor guarantees of a fair trial.
In this case, AIUI, the issue is data protection and privacy. The EU has much stricter rules on these things than the US, and normally the law prohibits exporting such data outside Europe without proper safeguards. The US in general does not provide those legal safeguards, and in this case, it's not even the legitimate users of the data who would be working with it outside the protections, it's a foreign government.
There is simply no reason they should be entitled to claim that information in some unrestricted, open-ended fashion. With the lack of guarantees we have, they could just pass it back to European governments (who may or may not be legally allowed to demand access to that information en masse and without reasonable grounds themselves) or to US-based businesses to give a commercial advantage over their EU-based competitors.

--
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Re:Oh, it's more sinister than that... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · 2010-02-11 23:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

Sorry, just to clarify my own post: yes, the SWIFT-related deal is inherently one-sided in terms of the US getting the information first, but that isn't the cause of the main complaints here in the UK, at least not those that have been widely reported in the media AFAICS. People aren't asking why the US isn't doing something reciprocal (what would that be, given the nature of SWIFT?), they are asking why this is allowed at all.

--
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.

Old Europe strikes again by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-11 15:30 · Score: 5, Funny

Putting their own petty concerns over the safety and security of American citizens.

Re:Cool, now nobody has to pay taxes. by NatasRevol · 2010-02-11 15:32 · Score: 4, Interesting

Hmmm, I was going to tear you an new one crying BS on high taxes & unemployment (the US & EU have essentially the same unemployment)...then I saw why everyone wants to claim residence in Monaco.

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Monaco/Taxes-and-Costs

Personal income tax: 0%.

--
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure

Soon a new US law by arthurpaliden · 2010-02-11 16:13 · Score: 4, Interesting

It will soon be illegal for an American or any entity operating in the United States to use the SWIFT money transfer service.

--
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo

Re:Can someone please explain to me ... by Lord+Kano · 2010-02-11 16:25 · Score: 5, Funny

How's Obama any different than Bush?

Bush was honest about what he believes.

Bush's agenda was all about maintaining the physical safety of Americans, even if privacy had to suffer. (I disagree with this too BTW)
Obama's agenda is all about claiming high ideals while brokering backroom deals to do whatever the fuck he wants to anyway.

LK

--
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano

The easiest way to deal with such US demands... by linuxhansl · 2010-02-11 16:34 · Score: 4, Insightful

is to require reciprocity. That goes for access to financial data as well as travelling/airline data.

It seems to me the US is quick to access other countries' data, but it far less willing to provide equal access to internal data as well.
Hence this would either level the playing ground or put a stop to US demands.

Re:The easiest way to deal with such US demands... by keeboo · 2010-02-11 17:38 · Score: 4, Insightful

is to require reciprocity. That goes for access to financial data as well as travelling/airline data.
Though slowly, it seems that other countries are getting fed up with certain US policies.
Your comment reminded me of this incident few years ago.

Re:Cool, now nobody has to stop terrorists. by BitterOak · 2010-02-11 16:58 · Score: 5, Funny

Wait a minute, you actually think Al-Qaeda is a country?

They must be. We are at war with them.

Drugs and teenage sex are countries too, I suppose.

--
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?

Re:Can someone please explain to me ... by shutdown+-p+now · 2010-02-11 18:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

Well, if Bush was as bad with a teleprompter than Obama is without one, then I'd say that it's still a definite improvement.

parliament by Tom · 2010-02-11 19:09 · Score: 4, Informative

The european government consists of two elements - the commission and the parliament.

What you need to know in short:

The commission is appointed, completely undemocratic, and holds most of the power and does most of the actual activity. It also bends over backwards whenever the US wants something. It was the commission who gave away our flight data, our personal data, our Internet data and now our banking data.

The parliament is elected, is the democratic body, and has very limited powers (though they have shifted around a bit with the last reform). It isn't exactly a mecca of reason, but it more often than not stops the worst excesses of the commission.

So once again, I applaud the parliament. They're fighting uphill battles against the commission all the time.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org

Re:parliament by MemoryDragon · 2010-02-11 20:38 · Score: 5, Informative

Actually the european parliament since the Lissabon treaties now are in place is more powerful than ever, which is a good thing, since the parliament is very democratically elected and thanks to the sheer number of fractions things like fraction alignments like it happens in some local parliaments never can happen.
For some european countries now the EU parliament is the first parliament they have in history which really acts like a parliament and not like some whore following whatever the fraction alignment tells them to do just to stay on the payroll of someone.
I would say since the Lissabon treatys the EU is closer to democracy than some EU countries are, we have the comission which can be axed by the parliament and every, absolutely every law which needs to be passed down to the countries have to be ratified and can be axed by the parliament (before it had advisory status, they could axe but in the end there were enough other ways to push the gutter down)
The problem also never was the comission, the media just blew it out of proportion, in fact some parts of the comission really do an excellent job for instance the ones which handle the anti trust issues. Important things such as the Swift treaty mostly were carried on by the council of ministers, which is represented by ministers of the single countries, exactly those persons who voted yes in those gremia and then went home to their own countries blaming the EU for what again was passed down over the EU into the single countries. Speaking of lying the members of the council of ministers were the biggest liers and basically scapegoated the EU and Comission for everything they simply did themselves! I personally stopped blaming the comission for everything because most of the evil stuff simply came over the council of ministers down the last years (mostly the interior ministers which seem to have a habit of becoming assholes as soon as they are appointed, or have been the biggest ones before even being appointed)

Re:Cool, now nobody has to pay taxes. by MemoryDragon · 2010-02-11 20:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

Ah something was denied to the US the US defense trigger some have comes out automatically without thinking. You have to be aware of that this treaty was a mutual spy upon you treaty. The US could not legally spy on the transactions of its own citizense but they could more or less spy upon the europeans, and vice versa, so what happens is that the data gets exchanged (all friend countries so why even doing some spying?) and then suddenly the US government has "YOUR" data (as well as all european governments and foreign agencies).

Before wishing us evil, think twice that the EU government has basically stopped a blatant spy attack of the US government against its own citizens and vice versa. Besides shifting banking data also opens the door to industry espionage especially in the banking sector.
Kicking all this was a good thing for both sides.

I hope the same will happen to whatever the dreaded Acta group currently negotiates. The EU parliament already is pretty pissed that they do not get any information as well there is a very high chance that the Acta groups treaties never will make it through the parliament no matter what is in there, they already made a significant number of people angry so that they vote against it automatically.

Re:It's not just the PIGS by rve · 2010-02-11 21:04 · Score: 5, Insightful

Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain are the worst but not the least. Most of the countries in Europe have spending and Debt levels that (as a percentage of GDP) are double the US level everyone is worried about. ...

Uhm, the US federal deficit stands at 10.64%, only slightly lower than the 12.5% of Greece, the worst performer in the Euro zone at this time. Portugal seems to have a deficit of 9.3%, Spain 11%. The I in PIGS is Ireland with 11%, not Italy. Mind you, these are the worst performers in the Euro zone, and relatively small economies, the average figures of of the entire Euro zone are looking a lot better than the US right now, and definitely better than the UK. The market doesn't only look at cold, hard figures though.

About the Euro tanking vs the dollar, I remember almost a decade ago, the Euro was worth about $0.70, now it stands at twice that amount. Both those extreme values are unrealistic and harmful, it would be better to have a stable exchange rate close to 1:1

Re:Huh? by Cederic · 2010-02-11 22:04 · Score: 4, Insightful

Was this bank service, like, handling the transactions that finance world terror groups and insuring their privacy?

I'm sorry, I don't see why that excuses a foreign Government monitoring the financial transactions of people, companies and financial institutions in my country.

Slashdot Mirror

EU Overturns Agreement With US On Banking Data

37 of 214 comments (clear)