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UPS Setup For a Small/Mid-Size Company?

An anonymous reader writes "We're a small company employing ~30 people and we are becoming increasingly reliant on virtual servers. Unfortunately, the hosts they are on don't have redundant power supplies because we simply don't have the capacity. We currently have one UPS per rack, which gives us about two minutes. This may have been enough time when they were put in — they've been there for some time — but it isn't really enough time to shut everything down in the event of a failure. Domain Controllers alone may take up to 15 minutes. So I'm looking at upgrading the UPSs to ones that would preferably give us around 15 minutes of breathing space and send an email or text alert when a failure is detected. Something that could trigger shutdowns automatically would also be nice. Of course cost is a key factor too. so given all of the above, what does Slashdot recommend?"

260 comments

  1. stationary bikes with alternator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    should serve 2 purpose - give you temp power and keeps your IT guys fit

    1. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by lastomega7 · · Score: 1, Funny

      Or if you have a bunch of hampsters around for whatever reason, all you'd have to do is train them to tweet failures/auto-shutdown everything.

    2. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by biryokumaru · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is a much better solution. Plus, it can melt your face!

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    3. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by Larryish · · Score: 2, Insightful

      New UPS batteries and redundant backup generators sounds like the way to go. Even if your UPS only gives you 2 minutes, that should be enough time to fire up a generator.

    4. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I second this. Get small consumer sized UPS units that can keep a server up for a few minutes. Then get a backup generator with an automatic transfer switch to keep the whole building alive until power returns.

      When sizing your generator, don't forget to include ancillary equipment such as routers and emergency lighting if you decide not to wire up the generator for the entire building. Otherwise, sizing should be easy. Just watch your watt-hour meter during a normal business day and add 25% or so to that as a safety margin. That will be the capacity you're looking for.

      Before you go contacting a vendor who will undoubtedly quote you an absurd price, do some legwork and look at the used market for diesel backup generators. The market right now is pretty good for them. Once you have the generator, you can price out the UPS's you'll need and the transfer switch(if the generator doesn't come with one). The cost to have an electrician wire it up should be pretty reasonable given it's a relatively quick job.

      The initial cost to this type of setup is likely higher than equivalent battery based UPS units, but over the long term is significantly cheaper than any large UPS setup.

    5. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That trick is pretty much good once, unless you plan on replacing the transistors and capacitors with heavier rated ones designed for continuous load.

    6. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      "Troll?"

      It wasn't original or funny and he spelled "hamster" wrong, but "troll?" Who woke up with mod points and a dick in their ass?

      If he were trolling it would have read more like "Or if you have a bunch of hampsters around for whatever reason, all you'd have to do is punch a Jew in the nose and fellate Hussein Obama while using Windows."

    7. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by datapharmer · · Score: 1

      you can also convert an old diesel Mercedes or truck engine with a large alternator for the job. Stay away from unleaded gas generators - the fuel is unstable and they are unreliable unless used regularly. If you can get natural gas at your location, they are a great option as well since you don't have to worry about running out of fuel or refilling for an extended outage. No matter what you use, be sure to set it up to run weekly for at least 10 or 15 minutes to insure it runs properly when it is actually needed.

      --
      Get a web developer
    8. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by Ihmhi · · Score: 2, Informative

      DirecNIC (an ISP located in New Oreleans) managed to keep their operations going for the entire duration of the Hurricane Katrina disaster and long after that with practically no downtime thanks to their backup generators. They didn't just shut things down - they kept right on going. If you're in an area where power loss or some other sort of disaster is a real threat then this is absolutely the way to go. Bonus, you can pretty much keep the UPSes you have because they just need to keep the systems online long enough for the generators to switch on (as the parent said).

    9. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      I understand that there are problems with diesel tanks left standing for a long time too - some sort of biological stuff can get into them whch turns diesel into sludge - if you're burning through the diesel pretty fast anyway, it doesn't matter, but if the diesel is left standing for months at a time it'll break the engine when it tries to use the fuel.

      (this is my broad recollection of a conversation that I had 3 1/2 years ago with an elderly man who owned a small boat which he used infrequently and got stuck in the English Channel once because of the problem. Perhaps someone could firm the facts up.)

      --
      FGD 135
    10. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by BOwara · · Score: 1

      I think what you are recalling is that if diesel sits in a tank for more than a few weeks, sits being the keyword, water tends to condense in the tank. When you try to start the the diesel engine, it usually having a compression ratio of 12 to 1 or greater, since liquids don't compress, the engine tends to come apart in various manners (bent or broken rods if you are lucky).

    11. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When you try to start the the diesel engine, it usually having a compression ratio of 12 to 1 or greater, since liquids don't compress, the engine tends to come apart in various manners (bent or broken rods if you are lucky).

      Diesel is a liquid too, so why doesn't it break all the time?

      We'll leave aside the fact that what gets compressed prior to injection of the fuel and the power stroke is air, which is compressible.

      The fact is that the water is denser and sinks to the bottom, which is where where the pipe is - and you can't run a diesel engine on water. Most diesels have a trap or U-bend to catch the water, which you need to bleed off from time to time.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what happens when there is no "unfunny" mod. Okay, off topic would have been closer, but... eh. I think it's someone sick of karma whores always responding with inane bullshit to the first post.

    13. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Be careful sizing a backup generator when a large part of its load will be switching supplies and UPSes. UPSes in particular have _very_ strange load waveforms due to the rectifiers that are used in the charging circuit. The harmonics passed back on the line can cause the generator to 'seek' trying to lock in to 50/60 Hz, which can cause significant damage.

      A permanent magnet generator can help, but they're a little more expensive.

      http://ecmweb.com/news/electric_ensuring_generator_ups/

      http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-186969.html

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    14. Re:stationary bikes with alternator by sjames · · Score: 1

      There are several problems. First, it water gets into the fuel line, the engine will not run until it is cleared. Another is that algea can actually grow in diesel (especially once water gets in) and clog the whole fuel system up. There's nothing dramatic about it, the engine just stops and won't restart until you thoroughly clean the whole fuel system including the injectors.

      In a warm environment, biodiesel is a good choice. It tends to have less problems than fossil diesel and can even clean out the fuel lines (to the point that when switching to biodiesel it's considered a good idea to change out the fuel filter soon after to get rid of the gunk the new fuel loosened up). However, it gets a bit thick in cold climates and can cause starting problems.

  2. Have you tested the UPS lately? by plopez · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is sort of off topic, but when was the last time you tested the UPS units that were installed "some time ago". The batteries can eventually go flat. You better check what you have ASAP. You may need to replace them sooner than you think.

    I can't remember the brand, but some of the higher end UPS units I have used came with monitoring software. They software polled the UPS unit, and started the shutdown as soon as a power failure caused the switch over to battery.

    HTH.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    1. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Lehk228 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even a cheap $30 APC backup has a USB connector and windows recognizes it automatically and can start a shutdown / hibernate immediately when power goes out

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    2. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by TheLink · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The trouble with most UPS battery tests is they involve putting the stuff on battery...

      If you have a server with redundant power supplies- then you can have each power supply attached to a different UPS, then you can test each UPS one by one, hopefully without the server going down due to one UPS failing the battery test.

      You don't necessarily want to shutdown immediately. I have my machine shutdown once the software thinks there's only X seconds of battery life left. Set X to something high enough so that there's enough time to shutdown AND cold boot AND shutdown again... Otherwise in event of a shutdown you will have to wait some hours till the UPS is charged enough before it is safe to power up - in case the power company or whoever cuts power on you half way during your boot up :).

      --
    3. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by rs79 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I had a $3000 UPS to keep a big Sun alive. After a couple of years they're $99 on ebay with dead batteries. But they have some of the cleanest pure sine wave power you ever saw. Best. Inverters. Ever. Capish?

      The batteries last 5 years then you replace them, period. They're "Sealed lead acid" or "SLA", in plastic cases with two tabs. They come in various sizes. Get the same ones. Be careful where you get them. $8 batteries off ebay tend to be $40 in the wrong store, for example, one is the same as a chair lift, and the medical devices store that have them in stock want $40 ea. Of course shipping LEAD acid batteries ain't cheap.

      The batteries for the UPC2200, just as an example, are $150 new for the pair plus shipping. $99 for the chassis (plus shipping and they're ungodly heavy without the batteries) and you have a $3000 UPS.

      That'll keep a small server running for a while if you give them one each. But you'd have to be a bit of a dick to have a dozen of these running a dozen servers, what you want is a one ton 12V battery, the kind your phone CO might use, a huge ass inverter and some panic circuit to cut power over to battery when the line goes down. That's the proper way to do it. Once a year they come out and recharge your battery for a small fee. These batteries cost a grand or two but last a long time. Refurbs are fine.

      The other nice thing about big batteries is if you get wind or solar stuff added on the to the
      building you can just wire that power in to the battery with no charge controller. Cause, uh, there's no fear your solar panels are gonna overcharge a ONE TON battery.

      --
      Need Mercedes parts ?
    4. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well that is certainly true enough. I don't have much experience with a bunch of virtual servers (being a desktop guy), so I wonder what relevance that would have in his environment since he specified that he is running a virtualized environment? He didn't say what virtualization product or hypervisor he was using though. I don't know if having the UPS connected to the physical host via USB (especially if using one of the light hosts like an ESX VMware environment) is going to be enough to help him out. Most likely he needs at least a version of the UPS that has its own network connection and a TCP/IP stack and not just a single host USB connector.

    5. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by tagno25 · · Score: 2, Informative

      If it is a Linux (or BSD) box then he can use APCUPSD. It can send emails, has network feature to let other machines know the status of the UPS, and even has a web interface for monitoring the UPS.

    6. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Blkdeath · · Score: 1

      The trouble with most UPS battery tests is they involve putting the stuff on battery... If you have a server with redundant power supplies- then you can have each power supply attached to a different UPS, then you can test each UPS one by one, hopefully without the server going down due to one UPS failing the battery test.

      The best way to test your power backup system is to throw the main switch and see what fails. How are you going to react in a power failure if you don't have that data? What good is your backup if it only works in carefully prepared, controlled and documented test scenarios?

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    7. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Whatever you do, don't push the FM-2000 button. That's one expensive systems test.

      Our new datacenter back in 2002 had a scramble button that didn't have a cover, and it got bumped by janitors a couple times. Luckily this DC didn't have the FM-2000. We had sprinklers, and an AC condensor right above our EMC Symmetra. Wasn't nice coming in on a hot July Monday morning and finding the DC floor covered in water.

    8. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by plopez · · Score: 1

      Good tests. But first shutdown anything a power failure can hammer. I remember when a FNG manager told a PFY to "just unplug the UPS" at a place I was working. The UPS battery was flat. The server was running an expensive MS database product. Server crashed. Expensive DB product running on server did not recover. Guess who was in charge of doing some admin and DBA work? FNG manager and PFY were not the ones up at 1 am trying to recover and restart the DB engine w/o losing 20-30 million dollars of data.

      Yes we had backups, but recovery from backup still can cost the company a week or so of expensive billable hours.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    9. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Idarubicin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The best way to test your power backup system is to throw the main switch and see what fails.

      I'd say that's the most rigorous, realistic way to test, but I'm not sure that it's the best way to test.

      So, you pulled the main breaker and took out all of the production servers because there was a problem with your UPS configuration software? Oops. Why didn't you try it on one server today, then one rack tomorrow, and then pull the plug on the whole system after close on business on Friday?

      Pulling the Big Red Switch is one good way to test, but it's not the only way, and it almost certainly shouldn't be first thing that you try.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    10. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by mrmeval · · Score: 3, Informative

      http://www.apcupsd.com/

      Apcupsd can be used for power mangement and controlling most of APC's UPS models on Unix and Windows machines. Apcupsd works with most of APC's Smart-UPS models as well as most simple signalling models such a Back-UPS, and BackUPS-Office. During a power failure, apcupsd will inform the users about the power failure and that a shutdown may occur. If power is not restored, a system shutdown will follow when the battery is exhausted, a timeout (seconds) expires, or runtime expires based on internal APC calculations determined by power consumption rates. Apcupsd is licensed under the GPL version 2.

      The developers system
      http://matou.sibbald.com/cgi-bin/multimon.cgi

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    11. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Blkdeath · · Score: 1

      I'd say that's the most rigorous, realistic way to test, but I'm not sure that it's the best way to test.

      So, you pulled the main breaker and took out all of the production servers because there was a problem with your UPS configuration software? Oops. Why didn't you try it on one server today, then one rack tomorrow, and then pull the plug on the whole system after close on business on Friday?

      What if the power goes out on Wednesday?

      --
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    12. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Idarubicin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What if the power goes out on Wednesday?

      That's my point, really. Test in situations where a failure has less severe consequences and you can troubleshoot smaller pieces first. Do the full-on Wednesday-morning test after you can pass the other tests.

      While it's important to be able to recover from a power failure, it's also important that designing and testing your redundant power solution doesn't do more damage to the business than not testing.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    13. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by frdmfghtr · · Score: 1

      The power going out on Wednesday is why you run your test on Friday--you test your protection to ensure that you can recover from a mid-week power failure by Thursday morning, but you don't run the actual test on Wednesday. You set your test up so that a catastrophic failure causes the least disruption.

      When I was in the Navy, we would run drills in the same manner--our response was the same whether the sub was running deep and fast or slow and shallow, so why run the drills in the riskier situation of deep and fast, where a catastrophic failure in response to the drill could cause very bad problems very quickly?

      --
      Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
    14. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Blkdeath · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The power going out on Wednesday is why you run your test on Friday--you test your protection to ensure that you can recover from a mid-week power failure by Thursday morning, but you don't run the actual test on Wednesday. You set your test up so that a catastrophic failure causes the least disruption.

      When I was in the Navy, we would run drills in the same manner--our response was the same whether the sub was running deep and fast or slow and shallow, so why run the drills in the riskier situation of deep and fast, where a catastrophic failure in response to the drill could cause very bad problems very quickly?

      But in a data centre you don't face the risk of drowning and/or perishing. Also, it's really easy to convince yourself that your setup works because you've carefully and methodically powered down each backup source individually, but it's near impossible to determine the stress that would be placed on a network by a power failure unless you simulate one. Obviously you have to take steps before hand to make sure your stuff is reliable and you're not going to run a full shutdown while everyone is accessing the data (that, by the way, is a lovely strawman everyone is putting up).

      The fact of the matter is, if you're not confident enough in your data centre's reliability to throw the switch, your data centre just isn't reliable enough.

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    15. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Endo13 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The fact of the matter is, if you're not confident enough in your data centre's reliability to throw the switch, your data centre just isn't reliable enough.

      Well, yeah. That's really the whole point in this discussion - they don't know it's reliable enough. Therefore, throwing the switch on the whole center at this point is foolish at best. You don't do that until you're reasonably confident based on other smaller tests you've done first. Which I believe was exactly what was being stated. Sometimes you have to learn to read between the lines, and understand things without having every little detail explicitly spelled out for you.

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    16. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the OP is that paranoid, why not just make an online system: 110V (or whatever OP gets from power company) - 12 V - battery - inverter - 110V (or whatever OP needs)? And you can add whatever else you need to the system: solar panels, generator, hamster wheels...

    17. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      I don't know if having the UPS connected to the physical host via USB (especially if using one of the light hosts like an ESX VMware environment) is going to be enough to help him out.

      I don't use USB, but I do connect the UPS to my ESX servers using a serial cable...it works great.

      I use Network UPS Tools to automate the shutdown. One 1500VA UPS with 28Ah worth of batteries per two hosts gives me about 15 minutes of power.

    18. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Tynin · · Score: 1

      I believe you mean FM-200 (as in Halon). We had a contractor accidentally set them off in our datacenter. They have an explosive cap in the release valve that assists in the rapid deployment of the halon... lets just say I didn't need any more coffee the rest of that morning as I was working the in datacenter when it popped. The only thing scarier I've dealt with was walking into the room that housed hundreds of batteries for our UPS, it was dark as the lights were off and I couldn't get them on, it smelt of burning plastic, and their were some positively spooky grinding noises coming from "something". Their is something more unnerving about a pitch black room full of potentially explosive batteries making unhappy noises than the 8 canisters of FM-200 going off like a bomb blast all around you. Must be the anticipation/anxiety that makes all the difference.

    19. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, that kind of testing revealed that your RDBMS was garbage, and should have prompted you to switch out not only the UPS, but also the RDBMS. Is this a major undertaking? Yes. Does your business depend on it? Also yes.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    20. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by ran-o-matic · · Score: 1

      FM-200 is not Halon, it is the Dupont brand name for a non ozone depleting Halon replacement - heptafluoropropane. Still yet, the deployment works exactly as you describe.

    21. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Tynin · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the correction, I've honestly thought it was releasing Halon for a shamefully long time it would seem :)

    22. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Blkdeath · · Score: 1

      Well, yeah. That's really the whole point in this discussion - they don't know it's reliable enough. Therefore, throwing the switch on the whole center at this point is foolish at best. You don't do that until you're reasonably confident based on other smaller tests you've done first. Which I believe was exactly what was being stated. Sometimes you have to learn to read between the lines, and understand things without having every little detail explicitly spelled out for you.

      Thank-you, but the point I was responding to which created this thread was thus;

      The trouble with most UPS battery tests is they involve putting the stuff on battery... If you have a server with redundant power supplies- then you can have each power supply attached to a different UPS, then you can test each UPS one by one, hopefully without the server going down due to one UPS failing the battery test.

      To which I responded about the need to stress test your entire setup to verify that it works. In point of fact, I'd still recommend that option to the person who asked the question in the first place because ultimately that's what's going to tell them where they need to investigate. The other options, as I see them, break down thusly;

      • Stall for time while they test and replace individual components which becomes quite expensive and time consuming and doesn't involve a comprehensive solution and typically leads to a spaghetti setup of mismatched components.
      • Wait for a power failure to tell them what's wrong (they never come at an opportune moment)
      • Plan a full-scale power-down test while nothing mission critical is happening and investigate and document the failures and come up with a comprehensive plan to attack the situation.
      • Do nothing and hope for the best.

      The fact of the matter is this; every data centre worth its salt I've ever worked, visited or used as a client had the ability to tell me when was the last time they did a full power-down test, how long it lasted and what the results were. In almost all cases the results were "everything continued to function as normal".

      Regardless whether there are 30 or 3000 employees at this company, it sounds as if this collection of servers is mission-critical and therefore people's livelihood depends on their uptime. If they don't take this power redundancy seriously now they're going to be in a world of hurt when the inevitable power failure hits them.

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    23. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      To which I responded about the need to stress test your entire setup to verify that it works. In point of fact, I'd still recommend that option to the person who asked the question in the first place because ultimately that's what's going to tell them where they need to investigate.

      And nobody's saying that's not ultimately what you want to test. But in this particular scenario that is clearly not the best test to start with, because we don't know much about the capabilities of the current UPS systems. And your next post about "what if the power goes down on wednesday" further emphasizes the fact that you're missing this. You don't test a system's capability to withstand a certain disaster by causing that very disaster when you have no real clue what its current capabilities are - particularly not "right now", just because the disaster "might happen on wednesday". It's like testing your building's fire resistance by setting it on fire, when you have no clue as to what it's capabilities might be at the moment. (And no, that analogy isn't as absurd as you'd think at first. Think about it.)

      Plan a full-scale power-down test while nothing mission critical is happening and investigate and document the failures and come up with a comprehensive plan to attack the situation.

      That's the only proper course of action when you're as unsure of your system's current capabilities as the original asker-of-the-question seems to be. If you're really concerned, you test the most important parts as best you can in the meantime, without causing the very thing you're trying to prevent.

      But simply killing the power this very minute (which is what you've been arguing in favor of, whether you realized it or not) is, as I said, foolish at best, and potentially disastrous beyond belief.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    24. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by frdmfghtr · · Score: 1

      But in a data centre you don't face the risk of drowning and/or perishing. Also, it's really easy to convince yourself that your setup works because you've carefully and methodically powered down each backup source individually, but it's near impossible to determine the stress that would be placed on a network by a power failure unless you simulate one.

      Right...and that is the ultimate test, after you have tested and/or corrected the subsystems that support that final outcome. You also run this final test when you have time to recover from catastrophic failure. That was my point--you don't expect catastrophic failure because you already tested the smaller portions, but in case you do, you have the weekend to recover...not overnight.

      --
      Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
    25. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by yakatz · · Score: 1

      Again, not sure about what OP is running, but my Hyper-V instances all automatically pause when the server receives a shutdown signal from the battery.

    26. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      A jet engine could fail at 20,000 feet.

      Doesn't mean you can't run a preliminary test on the ground.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    27. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      > What good is your backup if it only works in carefully prepared, controlled and documented test scenarios?

      When you have decent test scenarios your backup system will work in "real world" scenarios as well. And you still won't risk losing your data, transactions or sales just because of a UPS failing the test.

      If you have a critical server with redundant power supplies you can swap out the UPSes and test them individually first to see if they work under the required loads and scenarios. When that and other stuff (e.g. generator tests) passes you can do the "throw the main switch" test. While the redundant power supplies could fail, it's more likely that the UPSes will have problems that you don't detect till the actual test.

      If the test just involves "throwing the main switch", then it's a pretty stupid test. Nearly as stupid as checking whether your parachute is OK and packed correctly by just jumping out of a plane and using it.

      "throwing the main switch" only tests one load condition - the load during the test. Throwing the main switch multiple times in a day is not a good idea - feel free to disagree with me and do it.

      --
    28. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Could be a config or hardware issue (drive lying about committed writes or battery backed cache not working) too.

      Perhaps the database was configured for max performance with the assumption that the server will never go down abruptly.

      I wouldn't recommend that but :).

      --
    29. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Bingo.

      UPS's need the batteries REPLACED yearly on critical systems. If this has not been done the IT department has been slacking off.

      decent UPS's (nothing you can buy at best buy) have ethernet or USB/serial monitoring plus notify the pc they are connected to that power was lost, Windows server can easily respond to that, initiate a shutdown and with it's last shutdown breath, tell the PUS to go offline.

      Basically if you use 1U space of UPS for every 2U space of servers or powervault drive cages you will get incredibly close to correct UPS backup power ratio.

      also if you have critical operations, not having a generator in place that will automatically run every week and give you a report is simply really bad planning.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    30. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      That is why when the shit comes rolling down hill you throw the FNG manager under the bus...

      "Yup, Lost a lot of data because $ASSHOLE told us to just pull the plug..."

      I gladly throw managers and executives under the bus when they demand you to do stupid or illegal things. I take pride in it actually.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    31. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      But in a data centre you don't face the risk of drowning and/or perishing.

      Really? I dare you to stand in the datacanter for 25 minutes after I trigger the FM-200 system.

      dont face the risk of perishing... you've never been in a real data center. That alarm goes off, you get out as fast as possible, or you are dead.

      Not orderly, not carefully, you run as hard as you can to the exit, all oxygen in that room is going to be gone in 6 minutes.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    32. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      From the DuPont website:

      http://www2.dupont.com/FE/en_US/products/FM200_faq.html#1

      DuPont(TM) FM-200® is safe for people to breath at normal design concentrations.

      Halon might kill you, but FM-200 won't.

    33. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Jumping out of a plane pretty much is the only way of knowing if a chute is packed correctly and OK. You can check and visually inspect, but you can never be 100% certain.

      Okay, I'm being pedantic sorry!

    34. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Wrong. If you want to be pedantic, you can throw the chute plus a suitable weighted "dummy" and timed release out of the plane. Or test it in many other ways that don't involve jumping out of planes.

      Once you have tested your chute packing techniques/methods and chute equipment, and chutes to the desired level, you can then use the same packing techniques and same spec equipment for your main and backup chutes.

      While you will never be 100% sure your particular chute rig will work for you in a future emergency, once you test it to that level, it is far more likely that something else will hurt/kill you than both chutes failing.

      It will be a lot more expensive in terms of time and resources, but for really mission critical stuff it can be worth it.

      Probably not worth it for recreational skydiving (except maybe for the emergency/backup chutes).

      --
    35. Re:Have you tested the UPS lately? by asvravi · · Score: 1

      what you want is a one ton 12V battery, the kind your phone CO might use, a huge ass inverter and some panic circuit to cut power over to battery when the line goes down. That's the proper way to do it.

      [Citation needed...]

      Cause, uh, there's no fear your solar panels are gonna overcharge a ONE TON battery.

      [Citation needed...]

  3. Generator by binarylarry · · Score: 4, Informative

    Get a generator that can power things from natural gas (or other available resource).

    So when the power goes out, it will be seconds before the generator kicks on and the UPS are just there to keep power available until the generator is ready.

    --
    Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    1. Re:Generator by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 2

      For a Generator only 2 min battey time may be cutting it a little to close

    2. Re:Generator by linuxpyro · · Score: 1

      Actually, a generator plus flywheel storage might be the way to go. Get some flywheel units that can run everything for maybe thirty seconds, and have plenty of time for the generator to kick in. Now downtime at all.

      --
      Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this" in a post is the best way to get it modded up.
    3. Re:Generator by Hadlock · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Out company got to the point of almost bribing building management to let us put a generator on the roof for our use, since the cell companies already had diesel generators up there to power their cell phone antenna equipment. They still wouldn't let us though.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    4. Re:Generator by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      Except for the major incident at 365 Main where it didnt - a real UPS system is where the plant is always running off battery and the standby generator is tested every day!

    5. Re:Generator by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      ...since the cell companies already had diesel generators up there...

      Then I suggest a getting few long extension cords...

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    6. Re:Generator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      For a Generator only 2 min battey time may be cutting it a little to close

      Not really. Where I work we've got a natural gas generator setup that kicks in and supplies power within 15 seconds. 2 minutes should be plenty of time.

    7. Re:Generator by afidel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Our diesel standby generators kick on and assume load in 20-30 seconds. Of course we have a maintenance contract and weekly generator tests to make sure that stays true, a neglected generator probably won't kick on at all.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    8. Re:Generator by afidel · · Score: 1

      Every day might be a bit much, we tests ours weekly and run a full load test bi-annually.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    9. Re:Generator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Most natural gas standby generators can start in under 15-30 seconds.

      http://www.generac.com/

    10. Re:Generator by kullnd · · Score: 1

      Match that generator with double conversion (online) UPSs and your set --- We have online UPSs with about 1 - 2 minutes of uptime and a gas generator and it works great ... But I will say that if you have a generator I recommend online UPSs especially if you have your AC units also on that same generator... We found that we get some dirty power on generator, especially when the AC compressors cycle, online UPSs keep all of that away from our servers.

      --
      +++ATH0 NO CARRIER
    11. Re:Generator by timeOday · · Score: 1

      That doesn't sound like something a 30-person company could pull off. Or are you just incredibly competent?

    12. Re:Generator by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      Or you know, just run some conduit down the utility shaft. A 100' cord would have worked too though, we were only two floors from the top of the building.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    13. Re:Generator by afidel · · Score: 1

      Here's a Kohler 30kw generator with a claimed load transfer time of 10 seconds, $10k list so figure $20k installed with ATS. It's natural gas which is actually much easier at 30kw (my 100, 250, and 500kw sets are too big for the gas lines in our commercial park to handle so we use diesel).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    14. Re:Generator by pla · · Score: 1

      That doesn't sound like something a 30-person company could pull off. Or are you just incredibly competent?

      Failover generators don't really count as rare or overly expensive items. $5k-$10k will get you a decent 20-25KW unit, under $1500 to have it properly installed (and I find most tech-oriented companies tend to have at least one licensed electrician on staff, which would make installation "free" from the PHB perspective), and make it someone's job to do a weekly test fire (takes all of 15 minutes).

      Perhaps not that common to find locally in places that never get ice storms or high winds, but they've essentially become a commodity item - You have a dozen brands to choose from, in capacities from under a kilowatt to over 50KW (and that still at the "home-sized" end of the spectrum). Hell, Home Depot and Lowes carry 5-10KW models in store (though I don't think I'd trust something quite so low-end for the FP's purpose).

    15. Re:Generator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I've done this at my house. My wiring closet contains servers, satellite receivers, whole-house audio, power supply for the plasma display in the den and a split-unit air conditioner. I put the UPS in myself in a day and it supplies about 7-8 hours in the event of a failure with everything on. The backup generator operates on natural gas and supplies the UPS and the A/C during power failure and was installed by an electrician in under a 1/2 day and automatically starts. The generator also self-tests once a week. It's not complex and doesn't require a lot of work. A reasonably competent person could coordinate and manage the configuration without too much difficulty.

    16. Re:Generator by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

      That doesn't sound like something a 30-person company could pull off. Or are you just incredibly competent?

      That may be true, but I would go with propane anyway. Stored oil or gasoline can get nasty, and some events that take out the power may take out natural gas supplies also. A 17kW (140 amp/120VAC) propane or natural gas unit is about $3600. If they can't manage that then a 10kW (80 amp/120VAC) less then $2800. If you look on Amazon you may also find other units that will suffice. Many with free shipping.

      Bare in mind you may need a "break before make" relay and you still want a short term UPS while the generator fires up. Also, it's a good thing to have a big propane tank that can't "grow legs" and wander off to someone's backyard grill.

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    17. Re:Generator by tigerbody1 · · Score: 1

      Yes, get a generator with some kind of auto-start feature. At an ISP I started, we put the generator on the roof. We still had some UPS's, because a generator is not "instant on." And get some of the UPS's that you add External batteries to, as you can manage those batteries.

    18. Re:Generator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are testing your generator weekly without a load attached to it, it will not be able to handle the real load in a few years when it is really required.

      That is a classical mistake.

      You can not test a generator by testing if it starts, you have to put it under load.
      This is mostly a loadbank with resistors to heat water.

    19. Re:Generator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a classical mistake.

      As opposed to, say, a jazz mistake?

      Moron.

    20. Re:Generator by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Most non-crap generators run their own test every week.

      We forget ours except for hearing it start every friday at 10am and run for 30 minutes.

      Runs on natural gas, it's completely hands off except for the maint company that comes in yearly to check it.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    21. Re:Generator by afidel · · Score: 1

      Like I said we do bi-annual load testing so we know it works supporting the load. The weekly testing is to keep the fluids worked and keep moisture out of places it shouldn't be. It also helps to burn off the fuel over time so the diesel doesn't get too old.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    22. Re:Generator by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      My server room's been destroyed by a giant propane tank explosion, you insensitive clod!

    23. Re:Generator by sjames · · Score: 1

      Murphy's law dictates that in the event of an ACTUAL power failure your UPS will last half as long as you think and your generators will require an extra kick to get started. 20-30 seconds is fine but the UPSes need to be better than might go 2 minutes even with well maintained generators. It'd be a shame to miss staying up by mere seconds after spending for reliable power.

  4. Big Power Inverter/Batteries by linuxpyro · · Score: 0

    Not sure how it compares to some of the purpose built UPSes around, but you could go find a big power inverter like those used in renewable energy systems and get a bunch of deep cycle batteries, maybe a 48 volt bank. A lot of those big inverters have built in chargers and transfer switches, allowing you to basically use them like a UPS. You'd have to roll your own auto shutdown solution, though. And I guess it wouldn't be a true UPS, as there would be some transfer time (20 ms maybe?) as the relay switched over. Though I doubt this would have much of an impact.

    --
    Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this" in a post is the best way to get it modded up.
    1. Re:Big Power Inverter/Batteries by guruevi · · Score: 1

      20ms (about a full cycle on 50/60Hz nets) is plenty to mess up a bunch of electronics. Especially cheap power supplies don't sustain those brown-outs well.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    2. Re:Big Power Inverter/Batteries by linuxpyro · · Score: 1

      I don't think that transfer time is much different than the cheapie UPSes you can buy, which I have had on several occasions keep a PC running without problem. Then again depending on everything I guess it could cause problems.

      I've heard actually it's a bigger problem with AC motors, which may have trouble with the sudden phase jump that would result. I think a lot of desktop supplies are switchers which just rectify the incoming AC and then step it down to whatever voltage is needed. Guess it depends on exactly what he's running.

      --
      Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this" in a post is the best way to get it modded up.
    3. Re:Big Power Inverter/Batteries by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Well, I have one of those cheap UPS'es and although my Mac and router keeps running on power failure, sometimes the cable modem and DVR (rentals from cable company) crap out and either reboots or needs to be reset. YMMV depending on what elco the power supplies have built-in (if any) but I wouldn't recommend it for any 'critical' usage.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    4. Re:Big Power Inverter/Batteries by linuxpyro · · Score: 1

      It could also be because of the crappy power those UPSes put out, usually not a true sine wave. I was using that as an example due to the transfer time. Many of the inverter tend to have a relatively clean sine wave output like the higher end UPSes.

      --
      Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this" in a post is the best way to get it modded up.
  5. A second site by Colin+Smith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    With redundant connection.

     

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:A second site by JWSmythe · · Score: 3, Interesting

          There's an awful lot to be said for redundancy. I think he's talking in-house applications, but I'm not positive.

          One company I worked for, we maintained equipment in multiple datacenters, that were fully redundant. Normally, we served from all of them (no warm-standby sites). Over the years, we'd lose datacenters for various reasons. Sometimes it was power. Sometimes it was connectivity. Sometimes it was simple things, like our own hardware died. We've all seen where portions of the Internet can't reach other portions. Such redundancy will save you. It's better to have the reputation of "they just always work", rather than "they're down every time there's a problem in [insert area]".

          Most users won't say "thank you", but they'll be more than happy to complain when you're down. If you have such a presence, you're probably making money on it, so an hour of downtime can easily cost more than the cost of a couple redundant datacenters. With say 3 datacenters, I always made sure we had capacity at each datacenter, in case we had two sites fail simultaneously. While it seems like an almost unheard of event, we did have it happen a couple times in a decade. The providers will apologize profusely, but that doesn't make up for the money lost during the outage.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    2. Re:A second site by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "With say 3 datacenters, I always made sure we had capacity at each datacenter"

      Yeah, sure, that's the way to go for a thirty people company. A price tag, please?

    3. Re:A second site by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          It's not how many people you have warming seats, it's how many customers are paying for your service.

          In an ideal world, you could put up the best self-sustaining site, and all you'd need is one part time person to make sure the payments were coming in. :)

          Like I said, our company had less than 30 people, but no less than 1 million daily viewers. Since I don't work there any more, and I don't have the records, I have to do this from memory.

      DC1 - 1 cage, 8 racks, 4 GigE circuits, 50% utilized (normal peak).
      DC2 - 1 cage, 8 racks, 4 GigE circuits, 50% utilized (normal peak).
      DC3 - 2 racks, 4 GigE circuits, 40% utilized (normal peak).

          Price tag? About $100k/mo.

          There was a science behind a lot of what we did, so we could actually tune down our utilization by selectively removing content on the fly. Like, if Slashdot temporarily removed all sections but the main story, I'd bet they could drop 25% of their bandwidth and server load within minutes. We could shed over 50% of the traffic very easily. Folks may have noticed that links just weren't there any more, but we never got complaints as those were short-term fixes.

          For us, a 20 person company, that was easily doable.

          I worked at another place that had over 30 employees. When I left there, they did have multiple GigE circuits, but they were rarely using more than about 10Mb/s per circuit. Their pricing was a *LOT* lower.

          Space and port charges are one thing. Bandwidth is another. Even though pricing gets better as you use more bandwidth, the total still goes up. Like, if you paid $100 per Mb/s with a 10Mb/s dedication, with an aggregate usage of 6Gb/s and a dedication of 12Gb/s (so our 95th percentile didn't go through the freakin' roof), the bandwidth bill was something more on the order of $15 per Mb/s.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    4. Re:A second site by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      " It's not how many people you have warming seats, it's how many customers are paying for your service."

      Absolutly true. Now, let's see your price tag.

      " Price tag? About $100k/mo. [plus] on the order of $15 per Mb/s."

      Yeah. I thought so.
      And then, it's not about how much your customers are paying for your service but about how much you lose by *not* offering your services to your customers. I bet there's a lot of thirty people companies that risk in excess of 115k/mo US$ on loses due to data-center incidents so paying 115k/mo US$ to protect them makes bussiness sense. Yessir.

    5. Re:A second site by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          Actually, the price tag was $100k/mo, which included the bandwidth at about $15 per Mb/s (not $15k for bandwidth). Floor space and port charges aren't all that bad, or most people would be doing their work in-house. :)

          For a while, we were, but that was a long time ago, and that big fat T3 only did the job for so long before we had to start weighing the difference between having circuits run to us, and putting our stuff in datacenters. The tipping point on that one was one hurricane with a 12 hour outage attached to it. It wasn't a power issue, our connectivity was out. I called the provider, and their response was "You know there's a hurricane on top of you, right? What the hell are you still doing there? We've evacuated all of our people already. There's no one to help you until the storm passes."

          The storm suddenly got very boring, when I couldn't surf the net while babysitting the machines, and I was all by myself there.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    6. Re:A second site by inKubus · · Score: 1

      I've been playing with AWS (Amazon EC2 actually) and I've been working out a way to get live server images moved to EC2 nodes very quickly in the even something happens. Once there (you have to solve certain DNS issues and replication issues), you're paying by the hour but you're probably pretty safe and you can geolocate around their datacenters as well. It's definitely going to be a small part of our DR plan. At the very least we'll have our DNS provider forward to a last resort web server on EC2 with a downtime apology. The changes are kicked out automatically by a script at an offsite monitoring service. The more I use EC2 the more cool I think it is. Not the best solution for your main hosting but damn good for traffic spikes and emergencies.

      Not to say I'm not also having a second data center in the DR plan, but instead of a rack I can get by with 10U and save $600/month!

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
  6. First, know the load! by Nuitari+The+Wiz · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not knowing the load required on the UPS makes it very hard to tell what kind of UPS you need. You need to know how many watts are used in the rack to be able to plan some proper UPS capacity.

    apcupsd can be networked between machines and can trigger auto shutdowns of all of them, including VM guests.

    Some virtual machine system can also suspend all VMs on shutdown which could be a better alternative then shutting them down. Again, without knowing which VM system you use it's hard to get into details.

    1. Re:First, know the load! by TheLink · · Score: 1

      I do that on my home server - suspend VMs when there's only X seconds of battery life left.

      But if your virtual machines are huge (in mem), suspending all of them may take a fair bit of time. 4GB/50MB/sec = 80 seconds (100MB/sec = 40 secs). Some servers have 32GB of RAM.

      FWIW, I use Network UPS Tools and APC Back UPS CS 650. I have tried various cheaper UPSes (less than half the price), but I found during some power failures they don't switch in time (despite what their specs say) - which means my computer still goes off abruptly.

      Anyway for most UPSes you have to replace the batteries or the UPS itself every few years. Make sure you have a budget for that.

      --
    2. Re:First, know the load! by afidel · · Score: 1

      Your experience is one of two main reasons I hate line interactive UPS's, the other is that if you get a big enough surge a double conversion UPS will usually self-sacrifice and protect the equipment. APC makes both and it's sometime hard to tease out which model is which technology, but for me it's worth the research effort to get the slightly more expensive double conversion units.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    3. Re:First, know the load! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. This guy doesn't provide the server count or the watts per server. VMware doesn't have anything to do with squat.

    4. Re:First, know the load! by Glendale2x · · Score: 1

      With APC it's the SmartUPS RT series and up (VT, large Symmetra, etc.) that are double-online; the SmartUPS and SmartUPS XL are line interactive. Another key is if it does that buck/boost thing: that's line interactive. A double-online never needs to do that because it doesn't pass line voltage directly to the load.

      --
      this is my sig
    5. Re:First, know the load! by afidel · · Score: 1

      Thanks! I wish our VAR had simply told us that, would have saved quite a bit of reading multiple spec sheets and whitepapers for each unit to figure out which tech they used (as you say buck and boost and a couple other keywords were the key to figuring which were line-interactive).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  7. 1st. Identify Requirements by narziss · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not about the amount of people, servers, or a fixed time limit to preserve power. First and foremost, you need to identify what the critical systems are that need to be protected. These may include the VM farms, NAS storage, obviously the underlying network infrastructure, and at the very least, some management terminals that can be used in the event of a failure. Once you identify these systems you need to reference the electrical in/output specifications. If possible, you would want to measure the real requirements in production with inline monitors or passive taps. After you have built your requirement set (mind you, you may decide it's better to have a few small UPS vs one very very large one) you need to explore what needs to be up, and for how long, and build yourself a model. There are dozens of UPS manufacturers, and tens of thousands of combinations for any sized company. Once you have an outline of the systems and their individual power requirements, coupled with your own requirements for their availability/protected power, it will be relatively easy to build yourself a good level of protection on a small budget. Mind you these devices (UPS) can often be found on the second hand market due to company refresh, datacenter closures, etc. Many can be easily re-certified by the manufacturer directly or a variety of 3rd party vendors who specialize in this type of infrastructure.

  8. Diesel by mangu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No matter how much battery capacity you have, it will eventually run out. If your site truly needs availability, you have to get a diesel generator.

    1. Re:Diesel by Colin+Smith · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If your site truly needs availability, you have to get a diesel generator.

      lol.

      If your site truly needs availability, you need a second site.

       

      --
      Deleted
    2. Re:Diesel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Natural gas is better in that you don't have to store fuel on site. The natural gas infrastructure is very good and the times it goes down, you have bigger problems (Earth quake).

      Our local Menards has a small Caterpillar generator outside with gas run to it. The new ones are fully automated in that they'll start up once a week to make sure they work, automatic fail-over of power, etc.

    3. Re:Diesel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod +5 insiteful

    4. Re:Diesel by tagno25 · · Score: 1

      And propane is even better than diesel, but possibly slightly worse than natural gas depending on the location. It can sit for years, unlike diesel.

    5. Re:Diesel by mangu · · Score: 1

      If your site truly needs availability, you need a second site.

      Not if you have adequate fire protection and it's not an area subject to earthquakes, hurricanes, or floods.

      No need to overdesign. Having a well designed system also means complying to a budget.

    6. Re:Diesel by Cassini2 · · Score: 1

      What type of contingency you are planning for?
      - Do you need employees? At least where I work, you can't make employees work in the dark. You have to evacuate the building. As such, your diesel generator must be sized to power the lighting, not just the server room.
      - Do your servers need heat? or cooling? Do your employees need heat? The diesel generator must be sized to handle heating and cooling.
      - Does your ISP have a diesel generator? The local telco? Are your running an internet site? If your internet connection goes down when the power dies, keeping your servers running might not help much.
      - Do you have old-style phone lines? Do you need phones? Old-style phone lines work when the power is out. Otherwise, you might be out of business when your internet connection dies.
      - Are you running an industrial plant? Either you have your own generating station, or you are unlikely to purchase a big enough diesel generator to keep operating,
      - Are you running a shipping department? Does the entire shipping chain, including labelling, EDI, UPS, FedEx, Truck Carriers, workers (with lighting), all run when the power is out?
      - Are you running a hospital? All hospitals should have backup power, and all medical equipment emergency batteries built-in.

      The best contingency plans assume: your office/factory is gone. How do you stay in business? You should have a contingency to get every critical business function operating again, quickly. In reality, the failure will be less severe. For instance, a significant fire/theft requiring all computers to be replaced. If your contingency plan handles starting over from ground-zero, then just look at the section on what to do when all the computers are missing.

      Always remember: The worst failures are unexpected. My hardest emergency contingency, was keeping a factory working and shipping when all data communications were lost. The saving factor was that the old-style telephone voice lines kept running, and I was able to purchase a significant quantity of old-fashioned modems on an emergency basis.

    7. Re:Diesel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your site truly needs availability, you need a second site.

      Not if you have adequate fire protection and it's not an area subject to earthquakes, hurricanes, or floods.

      Or backhoes.

    8. Re:Diesel by mangu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Protection against backhoes is a redundant path, not a redundant site.

    9. Re:Diesel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your site truly needs availability, you need a second site.

      lol.

      and what happens when the other site is taken out too?

      If your site truly need availability, you need at least one site on every major continent and preferably at least two in orbit. You should also have spare sites buried inside granite mountains at least 2000 feet underground. Doesn't hurt to have a few in cheaper storage like old salt mines either.

      That's just scratching the surface though because there are some other things you can do to improve availability. I don't want to give away all my secrets though because my blog has better availability than anyone else out there.

    10. Re:Diesel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let any generator sit for years and it will sit just the same right thru your power event.

      As for the original topic How many cabs are there? Putting a UPS per cab is probably going to hurt in the long run. Pay for a pair of good datacenter quality UPS devices and proper PDUs. Thank about using ATS power strips if you can't have dual power supplies.

      Seriously though if you're not going to be a datacenter company then don't waste the time money availability and effort doing it half assedly. Find a local colocation company and get some good connectivity to it. Something like a QMOE and some other type of backup leased line. Its a colo company's full time job to make sure they have proper infrastructure in place. Do some math on everything and see how the costs will come out in the end. Don't forget to include manhours and cost of downtime doing a datacenter inhouse.

    11. Re:Diesel by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      lol.

      If your site truly needs availability, you need a second universe!

      Earthlings and their sub-15-nines (1 second in 30 billion years) availability...

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    12. Re:Diesel by Idarubicin · · Score: 1

      Not if you have adequate fire protection and it's not an area subject to earthquakes, hurricanes, or floods.

      And there is never any construction which might sever a fiber.

      And there are never any vehicles carrying hazardous materials in the neighborhood.

      And there aren't any natural gas lines within a few hundred yards of your facility.

      And there's no chance a deranged wingnut will get out his sniper rifle and shut down the area.

      And the sewer line never clogs and backs up.

      Past a certain point, hardening a single site against all possible disasters, inconveniences, flukes, and freak occurrences (those you can think of and those your imagination didn't come up with) gets more costly than some backup servers across town. Sure, it comes down to what your budget and your level of risk aversion will tolerate, but pretending you can make a single site truly five-nines available is a fantasy that will bite you on the ass eventually.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    13. Re:Diesel by pathological+liar · · Score: 1

      New York isn't subject to earthquakes, hurricanes or floods. If you'll recall the former occupants of the World Trade Center had a bit of a problem with low flying planes though. Those with a second site were up the same day. The guys that didn't... hooboy.

      "Overdesign" depends on your requirements. Billy-Bob's Bargain Basement Hosting doesn't require high availability. If you really need high availability, you don't just have a second site, you have a third or a fourth. You also need a disaster recovery plan -- companies I've worked for in the past have drilled for whole-building outages. They've HAD whole-building outages too.

      This guy just wants batteries so he can shut his stuff down cleanly when the power dies. He's not worrying about availability.

    14. Re:Diesel by clare-ents · · Score: 1

      Unless your site catches fire and the fire department insist you cut the power before they'll enter as happened to ThePlanet.

      http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/06/01/explosion-at-the-planet-causes-major-outage/

      "The fire department is not allowing the company to run backup generators, so the facility has been without power since the incident occurred."

      Adequate fire protection doesn't help that much if the electrical room explodes with enough force to remove three walls.

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
    15. Re:Diesel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No matter how much battery capacity you have, it will eventually run out. If your site truly needs availability, you have to get a diesel generator.

      No matter how much diesel you have, it will eventually run out too...

    16. Re:Diesel by Nesman64 · · Score: 1

      That's what we thought, until the cold weather turned our diesel into gel and the generator failed during a power outage. 300 servers down, 100k customers calling in. The phones were still up. :)

      --
      coffee | nose > keyboard
    17. Re:Diesel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not if you have adequate fire protection and it's not an area subject to earthquakes, hurricanes, or floods.

      No need to overdesign. Having a well designed system also means complying to a budget.

      Even then ...

      At the time of the first WTC bombing -- the truck in the garage one -- my wife's credit union, a very large operation whose name I can't remember, had their datacenter in the WTC. They went to a hot site some distance away (New Jersey?). An extraordinary snow load collapsed the roof there. The place was out of operation for many days, if not a couple of weeks. No one could make withdrawals -- just look at the messasge that said they were working on it.Few can afford more redundancy than that.

      However, some years back I took a Win2K Server (yes, that long ago) class. One of the assignments was to give a report on a real or hypothetical security scenario that matched requirements to real needs.

      Two of the students worked for Charles Schwab. They went to their security people and asked permission to broadly describe Schwab's new complex. Permission granted, but the exact presentation (including illustrations) was to be vetted/redacted by the head of security.

      They were able to describe a massive complex out in the Arizona desert. It was a ring of four interconnected, identical hot sites, widely separated. Multiple independent power and data sources, on-site massive power backup good for an extended outage, each center capable of handling the full load.

      And that's all before the nearly-NORAD-level physical security.

      They apparently didn't want service to be interrupted for some time well beyond the Second Coming.

    18. Re:Diesel by peas_n_carrots · · Score: 1

      Diesel is so 1890's. If you truly need availability, nuclear cogeneration is the way to go.

    19. Re:Diesel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That depends on the BAC of the one driving the backhoe.

    20. Re:Diesel by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Unless all your data lines come in through the same hole in the ground.

  9. UNPLUG THE MONITOR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    from the UPS

  10. More Infromation Needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    You haven't provided enough information. To answer your questions we'd need to know how many racks, how many watts or Vamps per rack, or even the type of servers you're running. On top of that you mention that cost is an issue, but you don't mention a budget.

    Without having that info imagine the following scenarios:
    1. You have 1-2 racks with 4-5 piece's of equipment each
        Get a Large APC (or comparible unit for each rack)

    2. You have 1-2 racks halfway populated
        Get an expandable hardwired rackmounted APC

    3. You have 1-2 (or more) racks fully populated
        Get a large hardwired dedicated UPS

    Of course none of this considers anything beyond just bringing the systems down gracefully. If you want something more than that you might want to consider an outsourced datacenter or a generator.

  11. Cost Analysis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would it be more efficient to put a new, top of the line server on with multiple UPS?

  12. Network UPS Tools by Yonatanz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The open source world has NUT to offer (Network UPS Tools).

    We've been using it at work for all our critical servers. It works with pretty much all UPSes, and on pretty much any production OS, so you can use your existing servers and just buy whatever hardware the budget affords.

    The linux/unix servers and clients are excellent, and there is a reasonable Windows port for the client (which we've modified a little to suit our needs).

    The cost is just your sysadmin's time, as with all F/OSS solutions.

  13. HP by Thnurg · · Score: 3, Informative

    We have had good experiences with the HP R5500 XR. You may require a smaller and cheaper model like the R3000 or R1500 depending on your servers.
    These UPS are fully supported by NUT.

    --
    The months are just too short. I can count the number of days on one hand.
  14. 30 people by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    And one UPS per rack. Is that like 2 servers each?

     

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:30 people by lukas84 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Meh, a 5500 VA UPS can drive a rack full of low-end 2U servers.

    2. Re:30 people by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      That wasn't the point being made, the point made was there are 30 people and at least two (most likely more) racks worth of servers. So probably more servers than people.

      Which if they do any sort of hosting or "software as a service" provision, isn't strange at all.

    3. Re:30 people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please don't be so harsh - it's not his fault that he's stupid.

  15. APC SmartUPS by ircmaxell · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have 2 3000 watt APC SmartUPSes per rack. They have both Serial and USB notification. Since each rack has about 25 servers, I get around 25 to 40 minutes of runtime for each server. So I have a small PC for each rack that monitors those 2 devices. It connects by serial to the upses, and runs CentOS. Then I have APCUPSD installed and configured in multi-ups mode. On each server, I simply install APCUPSD (There is a windows version), and tell it which UPS it is on. I also configure the appropriate shutdown parameters (20 minutes of battery left for non-critical servers, 15 for DC, and 5 for other critical servers. I also hooked each UPS monitor into Nagios and Munin, so I can track each one's power output and time remaining. So far, it's worked great over 2 "brownouts", and 1 total power failure (a test where I simply tripped the appropriate breakers).

    The rational behind having dedicated UPS monitors, is that I don't really care if the loose power while running, so I have them set to never shut down from UPS activity. Then, I simply implemented a script that on power restore issues a netboot command to each server under its control (configured with puppet for Linux, AD for Windows). That way, the whole system (all servers) automatically shut down, and turn themselves back on even if they never really lost power... So far, it's worked flawlessly (and with nagios, I get a text message on my cellphone within a minute or two of a UPS switching to battery (we have 2 dedicated internet connections that are on different power sources and different UPSs.

    I hope this helps!

    --
    If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinions, either his opinions are no good or he's no good
    1. Re:APC SmartUPS by InsertWittyNameHere · · Score: 1

      I have 3 racks of gear and 1.5 racks of UPS. It's kinda ridiculous but I get around 1.5-2 hours of full server room power.

      I got one full UPS rack at a firesale last year when the economy tanked :D

    2. Re:APC SmartUPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rational behind having dedicated UPS monitors, is that I don't really care if the loose power while running

      I don't want to be anywhere in you server room when your UPS sets power on the loose all over the server room. Don't Taze me Bro!

    3. Re:APC SmartUPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You said: "They have both Serial and USB notification." and "So I have a small PC for each rack..."

      You use Smart UPSs from APC. Spring for the ethernet monitoring and control card. It's worth it. Then you won't need a PC for each rack. One single process on one server can handle ALL UPSs (or for redundancy, set up monitoring on 2 separate devices). You can get automatic email alerts from the UPSs directly, or use NAGIOS or Cacti to monitor/graph power, battery levels, etc. And you'll get notifications if the UPSs fail regularly scheduled self checks (so you know if you need to replace something).

      We too use 2 UPSs per rack, and also use network-controlled PDUs (power distribution units) so we can individually remotely power cycle servers. Also we get servers with dual power supplies, and plug each supply into a different UPS so we can do maintenance on one without powering down servers.

    4. Re:APC SmartUPS by tkjtkj · · Score: 1

      a very reasonable setup .. but: does nagios also email you when the units come back online?? that's probably the most important thing , in a practical sense, cuz it could save you hours of travel... Notice of going down is fine, but you cant do a thing about it.. and your UPS capacity can handle it .. but to you really want to cancel your fam's vacay cuz you didnt know the problem was resolved 20 mins later?? tkjtkj@gmail.com

      --
      "There are 11 kinds of people: those who know binary, those who don't, and those who could not care less!"
    5. Re:APC SmartUPS by ircmaxell · · Score: 1

      Yes. I get an alert when power fails, and when it's restored. I also get alerts about each and every server, so if a server doesn't come back up (it has happened), I can realize it and either try to turn it on via ssh (triggering a WOL), or go in to try to turn it back on.

      The entire infrastructure (each modem, firewall, router, switch port, etc) is monitored and set to give alerts as differing priorities. I have to say, Nagios is a really nice tool. Plus, with Munin monitoring, I can (usually) see what caused the issue, such as a brown out, or monitoring server failure, etc... The pair (Nagios + Munin) is really a must have (or similar functionality) for all administrators with more than 2 or 3 servers... (IMHO of course)...

      --
      If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinions, either his opinions are no good or he's no good
    6. Re:APC SmartUPS by ircmaxell · · Score: 1

      I looked into the network cards, but I felt that I couldn't justify the cost (not that it was all that much). The reason is simple. We have multiple internet connections which are on separated networks. The nagios server is connected to both networks (it's one of 2 servers that have access to both). I wanted a failsafe notification mechanism that would be able to alert if either network went down (one is cable, the other is a T1, both on different polls). The network card's email functionality from what I could tell could only talk to one SMTP server. Not a huge issue, and definitely workaroundable, but considering what we paid for the UPSes, I felt I could get the same functionality (perhaps even more) via an attached server. Not to mention that I had the old desktops lying around (with little chance of needing them later) doing nothing...

      --
      If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinions, either his opinions are no good or he's no good
    7. Re:APC SmartUPS by wosmo · · Score: 1

      those 'old desktops' are probably costing you more in running costs, and decreasing your available runtime on battery. Just a thought.

    8. Re:APC SmartUPS by nighty5 · · Score: 1

      A great working example to answer the question and to provide a good sample of ideas. Thanks for sharing.

  16. Not enough info... by mysidia · · Score: 1

    Key points that are missing:

    How many servers and network devices. Total amps each unit is pulling.

    Total peak watts power usage of each server power supply.

    If you need 10000vA and 20000 watts, you're in a totally different ballgame than if you need 500vA and 1000 watts.

    Total peak vA of apparent power usage of each server power supply.

    For redundant power supply configurations, peak should be double the average.

    Pick a UPS that is rated for an amount at least 20% above the peak load, and has the rated run-time for each set of server PSUs it will be powering.

    For redundant power configs, two UPS should be used.

    You need to get sizing right before being concerned about fancy features like auto-shutdown.

    Which most enterprise-grade UPS should provide in some form (may require extra add-in module).

  17. Break out the calculator and spreadsheet by darkjedi521 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Its time to break out the calculators and do some math. There are two main factors at work here, UPS load capacity and battery run time. I run a series of research clusters at a university, so only the core systems (landing pads, schedulers, auth, disk arrays) are on UPS and all the compute nodes just die at a power hit.

    Retrofitting a datacenter for whole center UPS is a very daunting and expensive task, so odds are good you'll be replacing the current rack mounts with beefier units, either pedestal sized units next to their racks or rack mounted units.

    When buying UPS gear for work, I aim to hit either 67% capacity with the planned load, or the smallest VA rating that takes 208V single phase, as long as its at least 1/3 under utilized for future expansion. That covers the VA rating. As for battery run time, most of the larger units accept external battery packs to increase the run time. I've never used them, since a 5KVA unit with my load gives me 20 minutes of run time, and if the power isn't back on by then, odds are good its not coming back any time soon.

    Another option for extending UPS run time is to prioritize services/VMs. With the appropriate monitoring software on each host, you can configure each host to shutdown when the UPS estimates X minutes of battery time remaining or there have been Y minutes on battery, or both. Less load, more run time for the really important stuff. Almost every UPS I've used (APC, Tripp-lite, Powerware) comes with off the shelf software or there are opensource solutions (apcupsd, nut) for monitoring the UPS over serial, USB, or SNMP (Options vary with mfg and model). My shutdown schedule is: after 5 minutes on battery, power down the compute cluster landing pads. With 10 minutes remaining, power down the file servers with the archival data on them. With 6 minutes remaining, power down the primary file servers. With 2 minutes remaining, power down the auth box/network monitor/iLom control host (This is the only one that can't get powered on/monitored remotely).

  18. Wattages? by the1337g33k · · Score: 0

    It would help to know about how many physical hosts and their wattages though. You say you have one UPS per rack but how many racks are there and whats the average wattage per rack? Exactly how big are the current UPS'es?

    There are numbers missing here and if we had those numbers (they dont have to be exact, just close), it would help immensely in finding the best solution for the money.

  19. Inverters by mukund · · Score: 4, Informative

    I use a Su-Kam inverter at home. It powers a whole room, has a clean sine-wave output (unlike traditional UPSes), and its switchover delay is small enough that the SMPS in computers handle the switchover to battery power properly.

    It uses two large lead-acid multi-cell batteries (~car batteries) for storing charge. The last time there was a major power cut, it powered my computer systems for 10 hours (yes you read that right... 10 hours.)

    I was laughing at the old APC UPS which did 10 minutes before I had to power down.

    This is India btw.. power cuts are common.

    --
    Banu
    1. Re:Inverters by mukund · · Score: 4, Informative

      Oh and I forgot to add.. the whole setup cost me ~$600 including installation. Maintenance costs about $1 / month (topping up distilled water levels). Also the 10 hour duration I quoted above was the duration before mains power came back on. I suppose it would work for quite a bit longer, but the power hasn't been out for a longer duration. Also, this is a "home" sized product. You can get larger solutions if you want longer backup. Many companies use such solutions in India to beat the power cuts.

      --
      Banu
    2. Re:Inverters by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "I was laughing at the old APC UPS which did 10 minutes before I had to power down."

      I grab those and connect them to car batteries, both as battery tenders in my shop and for UPS use.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    3. Re:Inverters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The solution you describe is intriguing. Could you post the specific model of Su-Kam inverter you're using, and the specs on the batteries? I'd love to see photos, too, but appreciate any details you are up for providing. Thank you.

    4. Re:Inverters by mukund · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Photos are in another comment in this thread. The model I have is a Smiley 1400VA / 24V. I don't know if you'll find this in your country, but you should be able to find some local good-quality brand like it. Best is to contact a local dealer and ask them. Batteries are made by Exide. I don't remember the model number, but your local shop should be able to suggest good ones for you, that meet your requirement. I called up a local dealer here with my requirement ("I want to power X computers with the following components for N hours"), instead of doing the math myself.

      --
      Banu
    5. Re:Inverters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I built a similar system using 6 agm batteries for low maintinence and a 2k watt pure sine inverter. We also have a generator which kicks in after 30 seconds. The batteries should give us a couple hours of power in the event the genset does not start. The only problem I had was when the genset shut off after power came back on. the difference in 110v phase between the genset and the inverter caused our surge protecters to trip. We got around this by delaying the transfer from genset to powerline long enough for the inverter to come back on

    6. Re:Inverters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your computer doesn't care about sine-wave output or approximations from your power source. It is going through a rectifier before it even touches your digital hardware.

    7. Re:Inverters by mukund · · Score: 1

      When you use an inverter, you are typically powering more in your room than just computers with it as there's so much power available. Power comes off the wall socket and the inverter is installed closer to the AC mains supply.

      --
      Banu
    8. Re:Inverters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The reason your lead-acid battery solution runs so long is that you have A-h (amp-hours) to back it up. If you look in an APC UPS, you will find one or more sealed-lead-acid (SLA) batteries. The ones I've seen are 7 A-h batteries. Say your load is 1000 VA, how long are those 2 little 12V, 7 A-h batteries going to hold up? Do some math, convert the 12V, 7A-h to VA-h: 2 * 12V * 7A-h = 168 VA-h. Divide this number by your load: 168 VA-h / 1000 VA = 0.168 h, or about 10 minutes, optimistically.

      Slap a couple of [honking] A-h car batteries behind an inverter, and you easily have lots of run-time. APC and other UPS manufacturers do not seem to want to tell you VA-h capacity of their units, but you can figure it yourself by knowing the capacity of the batteries.

      One disadvantage of car batteries is the hydrogen and acidic gases given off by the batteries. They have to be in a separate room from the servers.

    9. Re:Inverters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the tip.

      By the way, those aren't car batteries. Those look like specialised UPS batteries or truck batteries - pricey, but it can give you power for a lot longer than car batteries.

  20. Larger UPS by JWSmythe · · Score: 2, Interesting

        It sounds like you may have outgrown the traditional "UPS". They're fine and dandy as long as you're only powering so much equipment. There are some huge options (large in physical size, and more so in price).

        A decent alternative may be a DC power room, with generator backup.

        Basically, you have banks of batteries, with true sine wave power inverters on them. The power coming in goes to charge controllers. Depending on how you set up, these can get pricey too. There are some nice (and expensive) units that handle both the charge controlling and inverting, and will automatically switch between the incoming power and batteries. Look at the higher end Xantrex units, made for on/off grid purposes.

        The less expensive way would be to break up your battery banks by power circuit. Say a 15A power circuit per set. Put a dependable inverter on the rack side of the batteries, and a good charge controller on the line side. Separate inverters for each circuit may not seem like the best idea, and the overall efficiency will hurt because of it, but an inverter failure will only mean one circuit goes down, not the whole place. It's affordable to keep a few spare $300 inverters on hand, where it's harder to ask for a few spare $3,000 inverters.

        You'll also want an automatic crossover, if your line power should fail, you can bring up a generator. The batteries shouldn't be intended to last for hours. They should only last as long as it takes to bring up the generator (say 1 minute). Expect that there may be generator problems though. In a prolonged outage, you may need to shut down the generator to refuel, so the batteries may need to last for hours. At very least, if your generator fails, and line power doesn't come back up, you have that hour to gracefully shut down your equipment.

        Such a setup can be made to make your company more "green" too. Are you in a situation where you could put a large array of solar panels on the roof, and have enough battery power to last you through the night and then some? You could bring your power bill down to almost nil, or possibly feed back to the power grid (with the appropriate permission and power meter), and make a little money in the process. The long term savings may warrant a raise for you. :)

        There are plenty of consultants that can evaluate your needs, and provide the appropriate solutions. As you talk to various consultants, several will say the others are giving you bad advice. Look at all of them, and research them for yourself before making a decision. Remember too, it's in *their* best interest to sell you the most expensive units possible, while you probably want the most reliable and cost effective.

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  21. Cost of UPS vs Colo? by Hadlock · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's the cost of a good set of UPSes vs simply migrating to a Colo & fatter pipes? Datacenters (most of them anyways) promise at least a few hours of generator uptime, and it sounds like you're already using a colo somewhere (dns relocation, etc).

    --
    moox. for a new generation.
    1. Re:Cost of UPS vs Colo? by JWSmythe · · Score: 4, Interesting

          I think he was talking about in-house servers, but I could be mistaken. it's good to be in a *GOOD* datacenter that has the proper redundancy. Most of the good ones have multiple generators and tens of thousands of gallons of fuel stored. They can stay running indefinitely, assuming they can get fuel supplied before they ran out.

          I did work in one good one. They had a DC powerplant to supply at least 24 hours of power. They also had two diesel turbine generators, and something like 10,000 gallons of fuel, which would provide power for 7 days. In talking to the senior techs who had been there an awful long time, they said the generators had kicked on quite a few times. Only once in about 20 years had they needed to refuel. It got touchy. The power was out for about 14 days. It took 6 days to get a refueling truck in, because it was a nasty blizzard, and all the roads had been closed for days. They were starting to notify the customers of a potential power outage, when two fuel trucks finally arrived. One refilled their tank, and the second was left parked there, in case power wasn't restored in time.

          That was a huge facility, and they had the power to say "bring us trucks now", and not be put off for larger customers.

          I wasn't impressed by the advertised specs of the site. They were good, but it's easy to lie about the specs. I *was* impressed by the site, when I walked through, and was allowed (with an escort) to see their primary data room (many OC192's), the DC power room, and generators. I wasn't getting the sales tour. I was getting the tech tour, because the senior guys wanted to tell me all about their stuff, and we had a chance to talk about all of it.

          I've been to many datacenters over the years, and many have failed to be as good as their advertising made them sound. N+1 generators can be a few 11Kw generators out by their dumpsters, or massive industrial generators. Maybe they test them once a year, or once a week. Maybe they work, maybe they don't. It's less than impressive to see the generators sitting outside, covered in rust, and looking like they were purchased 2nd hand and hadn't been maintained since 1950.

          At one site (again, an impressive site), they had an absolutely huge DC room, and I was there a couple times when the received phone calls to turn on their generators because the power company needed the extra capacity. A couple 1Mw generators may make the difference between constant power, and widespread brownouts.

          The impressive datacenters were way beyond anything I could possibly talk my management into doing in-house.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    2. Re:Cost of UPS vs Colo? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      At one site (again, an impressive site), they had an absolutely huge DC room, and I was there a couple times when the received phone calls to turn on their generators because the power company needed the extra capacity. A couple 1Mw generators may make the difference between constant power, and widespread brownouts.

      If 2Mw is the difference between widespread brownouts the electric company has suppl and or grid problems they need to address; especially if they need that power on any sort of repeat basis to avoid brownouts.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    3. Re:Cost of UPS vs Colo? by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          I suspect they were calling more than just that one location. I'd name the area, but I wouldn't want to offend LADWP. :)

          Really, that was a good measure to know where emergency resources were available when they didn't have the available capacity.

          If my knowledge of power plants is correct, it takes some time to spin one up to full capacity (like 12 to 24 hours), so if there is a spike in usage, they may not be prepared. For example, an unexpected hot day may require more power because people are running their air conditioners for longer duty cycles. An unexpected outage at one of their plants could hurt the situation also.

          In calling up non-company resources, the average consumer would be completely unaware that it happened, and they power company still makes money. To the best of my knowledge, any power fed back into the grid is paid on at wholesale rates, but it's still sold to customers at full retail rates.

          I believe they've changed that for residential customers though, but I may be mistaken. I know some areas of the US are paying on full retail rates for surplus energy made through alternative means, such as solar, wind, and generators. If you set up your home properly at either rate, you can bring your residential cost down to almost nothing by supplying your own residence during the day and providing power to the grid, and using on-grid off-peak pricing at night. For many people, the power requirements at night are low, where they only have their HVAC and refrigerator running at lighter duty cycles, but all the lights and other electronics are turned off.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    4. Re:Cost of UPS vs Colo? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      If my knowledge of power plants is correct, it takes some time to spin one up to full capacity (like 12 to 24 hours), so if there is a spike in usage, they may not be prepared. For example, an unexpected hot day may require more power because people are running their air conditioners for longer duty cycles. An unexpected outage at one of their plants could hurt the situation also.

      There are three types off plants (in order of increasing cost of power):

      Baseload - plants that you want to run at 100% all the time (such as nukes)

      Load Following - plants that adjust their output to match demand above baseload

      Peakers - plants that you run only to satisfy spikes in demand. They generally are gas turbines or other sources that can be switched on and off rapidly. Some GT can be at full load in seconds.

      There's also a spinning reserve that allows you to adjust for unexpected changes in supply or demand.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    5. Re:Cost of UPS vs Colo? by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          Well, I know there are glaring exceptions to that. I'm not arguing your general points though.

          Where I grew up, there was a nuclear plant nearby. When I was a kid, it usually managed to average 1 month/year online. It had multiple coal plants providing the real power. Well, that and power shared on the grid. We never suffered from load related blackouts there. There were plenty of thunderstorm related outages though. :) From what I've heard, it's offline indefinitely do to some physical fault. It doesn't seem to be reported that there was any leak, it's just a hazard that's keeping it offline. of course, I trust everything I read. :)

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    6. Re:Cost of UPS vs Colo? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Where I grew up, there was a nuclear plant nearby. When I was a kid, it usually managed to average 1 month/year online.

      Which plant?

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    7. Re:Cost of UPS vs Colo? by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          It was owned by FPL when I was there, but it's now owned by Progress Energy. It's one of those locations that folks don't like to visit from out of town. "Fly into the nearest large airport. Drive 80 miles. Continue 10 miles out of the last resemblance of civilization, and take a left. If you cross an abandon Corps of Engineers project, you've gone too far. Continue down what looks like a road to nowhere, and eventually you'll get to a guard shack. Show your ID, and then hang a left, and follow the road around to the reactor" :)

          Oh, the memories. It reminds me of why I left there.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    8. Re:Cost of UPS vs Colo? by RockWolf · · Score: 1

      It was owned by FPL when I was there, but it's now owned by Progress Energy. It's one of those locations that folks don't like to visit from out of town. "Fly into the nearest large airport. Drive 80 miles. Continue 10 miles out of the last resemblance of civilization, and take a left. If you cross an abandon Corps of Engineers project, you've gone too far. Continue down what looks like a road to nowhere, and eventually you'll get to a guard shack. Show your ID, and then hang a left, and follow the road around to the reactor" :) Oh, the memories. It reminds me of why I left there.

      Sounds like my kind of place. No, seriously. There's a reason I'm a geologist.

      ./Rockwolf

      --
      February 9th, 2009 8:55pm: Slashdot becomes self-aware.
    9. Re:Cost of UPS vs Colo? by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          It's not much of a place, unless you like limestone. Well, sand on top, clay from 1' to 4' down, and limestone until you hit water.

          That is unless you go over to the power plant. The islands that they created with the dredging for the outlet canal are lots and lots (and lots) of old seashells, and not much else. Well, that's from what I remember. Maybe a sharp eyed geologist would spot the ... well ... limestone mixed in with the seashells. :)

          Be careful though, I was out with a group testing for heavy metal contaminations. There were some pretty notable traces of a few in the outlet. Probably safe to swim in, but not exactly safe to drink. So much for the idea of "clean" energy. Clean out of the smoke stacks, dirty out of the warm water outlets. It's kinda hard for the casual observer to test for contamination in the steam outlets, but I'd suspect it exists too.

          But hey, whatcha going to do?

       

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    10. Re:Cost of UPS vs Colo? by RockWolf · · Score: 1

      Be careful though, I was out with a group testing for heavy metal contaminations. There were some pretty notable traces of a few in the outlet. Probably safe to swim in, but not exactly safe to drink. So much for the idea of "clean" energy. Clean out of the smoke stacks, dirty out of the warm water outlets. It's kinda hard for the casual observer to test for contamination in the steam outlets, but I'd suspect it exists too. But hey, whatcha going to do?

      Not eat the fish. ;)

      --
      February 9th, 2009 8:55pm: Slashdot becomes self-aware.
    11. Re:Cost of UPS vs Colo? by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          That's pretty much where we were taking samples. Oysters, and the water. The warm water outlet isn't that hot to us (like, you could comfortably swim in it), but aquatic life was seriously lacking for a large area near the outlet. There were oysters, some plant life, but not thriving aquatic life like in the surrounding areas with natural temperatures (all global warming discussion aside).

          But ya, I learned quickly not to eat the local seafood. Then again, what food can we get that isn't tainted in some sort of way. I've opted for not really caring. I'll die from something sooner or later, lets just hope it's quick. I hope to die like my grandfather, peacefully in his sleep. Much unlike the other passengers in the car he was driving, who were screaming the whole way. :)

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    12. Re:Cost of UPS vs Colo? by RockWolf · · Score: 1
      From the heat, the water was probably seriously low in dissolved oxygen. That's not going to help anything much.

      As for food, I'd suggest somewhere near-traditional. I've had some fantastic seafood when working in traditional villages in Fiji - so traditional the fish were caught with a floating platform and spear, and no refrigeration to speak of. So, if we ate fish, it was caught the night before or that morning. The other option would be deep-sea fishing, I'd suppose - but probably not near major river deltas or cities. If we ate chicken, there was one less getting under our feet. Simple life, but I can see the attraction.

      And yes, we're all going to die of something. If you'll forgive me:

      You have no chance to survive make your time.

      ./Rockwolf

      --
      February 9th, 2009 8:55pm: Slashdot becomes self-aware.
  22. Liebert by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Liebert UPS's have an application called MultiLink, which will automatically shutdown the servers it communicates with based on certain conditions, like battery life remaining, among others. It communicates between the UPS and the servers on it via SNMP, and then triggers the shutdown based on parameters you set. Nice little automated way to accomplish what you are after. Of course, it requires a Liebert UPS, but I am sure there are similar solutions out there for almost all large UPS manufacturers.

  23. Leave it to the professionals by chill · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Co-locate your equipment at a carrier-grade data center in the nearest major city to your location and get a leased line to your premises. A decent data center will have proper battery backup and generators and know how to handle it. They'll also have the time and manpower to do proper tests, etc.

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    1. Re:Leave it to the professionals by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      The colo can have a number of benefits, but from a cost and complexity perspective it will fail. 2x20kW UPSs with a transfer switch for each rack will pay for itself in under a year. The only exception to this is if you need a backup generator and are in a leased, multi-level building. Then the payback period might hit 3-5 years, especially if you can get cheap gigabit links to a colo.

    2. Re:Leave it to the professionals by kamaaina · · Score: 1

      Like Fisher Plaza in Seattle

  24. virtual servers? by oneiros27 · · Score: 1

    As you mention virtual servers, I'm going to guess that part of the problem is that you have large-ish servers.

    My suggestion would be that if you have different uptime requirements for different services, to segregate them to different machines with a dedicated UPS.

    Our office has between two to four 3000VA MGE Pulsars per rack, depending on how much power they draw and how long we need to keep things up. (Although APC now owns them, the MGEs are more power-dense than the APC Smart-UPS line, as they're only 2U each)

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
    1. Re:virtual servers? by benjamindees · · Score: 1

      I would mod you up, but I'll just agree. My advice is to re-evaluate the reason for using virtual servers, consolidate, eliminate unnecessary hardware, and optimize for power usage. Then use the extra rack space for more UPS. Two minutes of standby means that you are seriously pushing your resources, or need to replace your batteries at least.

      No mention of who the admin is, or whether there even is one. But I would take a hard look in that direction as well.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  25. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by JWSmythe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not about the amount of people, servers, or a fixed time limit to preserve power.

        You're absolutely right. One place I worked had about 20 employees, 150 servers, but had an income of millions per year. The income averaged out to about $5,700/hr. 12 hours of outages per year could cost almost $70,000 in lost revenue. Is it worth $10k in extra equipment to mitigate that? Obviously.

        Smaller companies have to evaluate their acceptable losses. Sometimes it's not worth $100 to make sure you stay up through power outages.

      "5 9's" of reliability still leaves 1.14 hours per year of outages. Of course, that doesn't assume that it's all power related outages. Redundancy across physically diverse locations can and will help there.

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  26. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You also need to keep in mind local regulations - in our area, once the UPS gets above a certain size you need a hydrogen gas extraction vent for the batteries.

  27. Re:Shill detected by mukund · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's no act. I am happy to put up photographs of my setup if you want. It's been working well for me the last year, so I don't have issues recommending it. Apart from being a customer, I have no connections to any inverter/battery company. You OTOH are an anonymous coward. Here is my website. Go find more about the shill there.

    --
    Banu
  28. DC supply and telco battery banks by GuyFawkes · · Score: 1

    As subject.

    --
    http://slashdot.org/~GuyFawkes/journal
  29. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by afidel · · Score: 1

    The problem is without enough UPS to cleanly shutdown your brief 30 second power outage can turn into a whole day or multiday affair of repairing boxes and verifying and fixing data integrity issues.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  30. Generic UPS comments by thumb1 · · Score: 1

    Unless your servers themselves are redundant, you'd be better off with one large UPS with an external battery cage/frame. You can often find those for sale used, but you will almost always need to replace any batteries that come with them. Buy units that use commodity batteries - you can shop around for price among battery specialty shops - often there are substantial savings available. By having an external battery box, you can add battery strings in the future to increase backup time as needed. Having more than one string (if it's wired correctly) also means you can take one string off-line for testing but still have some backup. There are some bigger units that are rack-mountable if this is in a CoLoc, but I think they offer less bang/buck than other units I've seen.

    The MTTF of the bigger UPS systems is typically longer than the individual smaller UPS units (not to mention the the effective MTTF of the smaller units is reduced if any one of them failing brings down your whole application), and the bigger ones usually have much better ways to do maintenance on them without taking your AC down (such as bypass switches, which could be available for smaller systems but would have to be wired for each one, which doesn't ever happen).

    Next, if you buy a system that is fairly common, you should plan (by leaving space, etc.) to buy another one just like it some day. Then you can do a "Red/Blue" power setup, where all of your key gear has dual power supplies, with one plugged into each of the different UPS systems.

    Eventually, batteries run out. And eventually, you will go down long enough that some VIP will recommend buying a generator. Generators are also best purchased used. I used to like the idea of natural gas powered generators - in a true emergency, it can be hard to get fuel deliveries for diesel generators. However, I found that in many areas the natural gas pressure depends on a functioning electrical power grid to keep the pump stations running - so I'd go with diesel power and make sure I had a contract in place that guaranteed fuel delivery even in case every generator owner in town was screaming for diesel.

    I wouldn't mess with small gas powered generators - they aren't reliable enough to be worth it.

    And finally, whatever you get, make sure you have a process in place that tests the functionality, and a way to make sure that if the tests fail that in is obvious and can get fixed. I can't tell you how many times I have seen backup systems fail, and as it turned out it had been failing weekly tests for a month previously, but the e-mail account that notification went to (or cell-phone number, or whatever) was no longer monitored. Embarrassing.

  31. Generator by zogger · · Score: 1

    We have to have a similar deal on the farm, loss of electricity would be devastating, and there's only a few minutes window there. So we have multiple large diesel generators on auto start. They each have four starter batteries,(that is for redundancy as well) and get tested and run periodically. Loss of grid power (or an out of bounds temperature reading, or loss of water pressure, or low propane pressure for the heaters, or low feed levels in the bins, whatever, it is all computerized, etc) causes loud external sirens to go on, and it sends a message to both an external monitoring service, then to the individual farmers, and the entire incident gets logged. That's really the only way, have good backups and fast response. When loss of power can cause an emergency situation that effects your bottom line, you can't have too much "insurance" there. The machinery is designed to respond to emergencies automatically, plus gets the relevant hoomannzz ass in gear to go check things out anyway.

    If you can handle downtime and just want a clean shutdown, well, just get a better UPS and swap out to new batteries periodically. Always size one bigger than what you think you need, give yourself a cushion there.

  32. Sizing is VERY important by nuckfuts · · Score: 1

    One challenge is knowing how many VA your servers draw, which varies depending on how much RAM they have, how many disk drives, and even how busy the servers are. There is no boilerplate information that can help you with this. To spec your UPS's properly, you need to connect a power meter to each group of servers and monitor the power consumption under typical load.

    Once you have an accurate idea of the load, you can look at UPS manufacturer's data to determine how much runtime to expect. For example, if a 2KVA UPS is rated for 10 minutes with a particular battery, you should get 20 minutes if your load is 1KVA.

  33. Suspend to disk instead of shutdown? by kju · · Score: 1

    Might be lot faster.

  34. cheap way by yalap · · Score: 1

    WeirdStuff is selling UPS cases without batteries IIRC $60 for a 3000VA unit. Add new batteries and you'll save a ton of money. With any used UPS you will want to put new batteries in anyway. We have 6 UPS, all from craigslist. We replaced the batteries and have had no problems.

  35. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

        That all depends though.

        I have a site that gets decent traffic. It makes a few hundred dollars per year. It's not worth it for me to spend even $100 on even a good UPS.

        You have to consider the need. If it makes a few hundred dollars per year, 2 days of outage is a trivial cost. Say at $1,200/yr ($100/mo, a high estimate), an outage of a full day has a lost income of $3.28. I fix whatever breaks in my spare time, so my manhour expense is $0. If my server were to go down at 10am on a weekday, I'd be there around 7pm to fix it, and it would (hopefully) be up before midnight.

        So, you have to weigh the difference between the cost of the hardware, and the loss of income for the period.

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  36. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by Roger+Lindsjo · · Score: 1

    5 9's would be just over 5 minutes and 15 seconds.

  37. Eaton is excellent by wysiwig3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I moved away from monster APC & Leibert units a bit over a year ago, and I'm so glad. I encourage you to look at the Powerware BladeUPS units. Each provides 12kW capacity, with internal batteries and the ability to string two additional external battery modules (EBMs) for increased time. In addition, the unit is stackable up to 6 high in a cabinet yielding 60kW (in an N+1) configuration. You can grow it as you need it. Nice Web/SNMP card that can be added for all the info you could want. With the N+1 config, you can shut down any single unit for removal, repair, or battery swaps. These things are so much less hassle than my old equipment that I won't be looking elsewhere for a while.

  38. Requirement Business and Physical by tengu1sd · · Score: 1

    Not enough information to make a decision here. 30 end users with some virtual servers. . . What's the impact (co$t) of downtime? What sort of traffic do these systems support? Some virtual servers How many physical servers and what are the network, power and cooling requirements. You probably don't want your UPS to run these systems when cooling has been out for hours.

    So, work out what financial impact downtime will have. Then you can start looking at options. At one end of the scale, move everything into a hosted data center and bring up a point to point VPN. Let someone else deal with power, cooling and redundant networking. Your midpoint will be rack sized (half rack maybe) UPS that can feed your equipment. Include cooling and or temperature monitors as well. At the low end, buy a couple of rack sized UPS for 15 minutes or so and hope things work out. Don't forget to scale this option to allow for that new storage expansion or the server uplift which will add more CPUs and have larger power budget.

    Work out the numbers cost versus business requirements. I worked with one company when we had a prolonged power outage, (greater than 15 minutes) we shut down our development and staging servers, left customer facing equipment and networking running and located ginormous fans on UPS power to purge hot air and bring in outside air. It's always cooler outside than behind the racks.

    Bottom line is the cost of downtime against the cost of preparation. Run the numbers, make a recommendation and remember I told you so although satisfying may or may not be good long term career option.

  39. Domain controllers are clearly the biggest problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    15 minutes to shutdown domain controllers?? Get rid of 'em!

  40. Solution--- A backup UPS for a UPS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Might as well have a cluster of UPS's like a cheap APC where one main ups has 3 backup ups's.... I know its a quick and dirty hack, but it should work I think... :-)

  41. I'll get modded down but... by schklerg · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    What about FedEx or DHL? Are you just a big fan of the color brown?

    --
    Be Excellent To Each Other
  42. APC Symmetra LX by zerofoo · · Score: 1

    We have around 20 servers, and the usual routing/firewall/switch/remote access stuff.

    Our 16kVA Symmetra LX is 70% loaded and gives us about 30 minutes of runtime.

    Total cost for the UPS and outboard step-down transformers was around $10k

    -ted

    1. Re:APC Symmetra LX by TClevenger · · Score: 1

      This. We have a Symmetra LX and it's been great. You can wire in panels in the back to output 120V or 240V, so no step-downs are needed. You can also add battery modules for more runtime, power modules for more wattage, and expansion cabinets to house even more. They come in floor-mount and rack-mount flavors.

      I've had too many unexpected failures of the SmartUPS units after a couple of years. They pass their self-tests for months, but when put under an actual load, they give a "dead battery" alert within 5 minutes (even when very lightly loaded.) If you continue to use those, I'd recommend replacing the batteries on a fixed schedule even if they appear to not need it.

      Since I've been adding batteries to the Symmetra as we've wanted more runtime, I don't have to worry about them all failing at once (and I haven't had a failure of any kind in four years.) Ours now has a runtime of 3 hours and 40 minutes (conveniently indicated on the front panel), and N+1 redundancy in the power modules based on our current load.

  43. Propane Explosions by Cassini2 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Not properly maintained propane storage/transfer sites have be known to explode. For instance: the 2008 Toronto explosions, the 2006 explosion, and the Feyzin disaster. Propane is highly vulnerable to a BLEVE - Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion. Many more smaller propane exposions have occured, they just did not make the news.

    I've seen what happens when Propane explodes. I would think twice about using it for an emergency backup fuel source.

    1. Re:Propane Explosions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      proper propane tanks have pressure release valves that vent the excess pressure.

    2. Re:Propane Explosions by Cassini2 · · Score: 1

      proper propane tanks have pressure release valves that vent the excess pressure.

      Propane is heavier than air. Heat rises. If you have a fire under the propane tank, and the tank vents, then you have an even bigger fire. Maybe not quite a full scale BLEVE explosion, but it is really spectacular.

  44. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by trum4n · · Score: 2, Funny

    You run Windows Vista on your servers?

  45. Do the math, and then buy APC by Tolaris · · Score: 1

    First, do the math. Calculate the run-time power consumption of your servers. The easiest way is to use real numbers from the existing UPS units, or by using a kill-a-watt.

    Second, buy APC UPS units to meet your need. UPSes are rated for the number of actual watt-hours they support. If your servers consume 1500 watts, and you need them to operate for 30 minutes on battery, you'll need at least 750 watt-hours. Considering adding 50% for battery deterioration, and future expansion.

    No, I don't work for APC, but they have worked exceedingly well for me and they are supported on practically any operating system you run.

    In my network, we have a Linux machine monitor the UPS via USB serial cable using apcupsd, which you can find in your distro's repository. Then all the other machines are linked to that machine also using apcupsd but with an ethernet target instead of USB. When the UPS fails, the others find out within 20 seconds (or whatever your poll time is), and take action. Any data the USB host has, the others have from the network. It is easy to fetch the data via SNMP, graph it in Cacti, etc.

  46. There are a few things to think about.... by mlwmohawk · · Score: 1

    With most UPS systems on the market, the battery is sized for an estimated 5~10 minutes of run time for the power capacity of the UPS. There are actually two things to consider: The storage capacity of the batteries and the power capacity of the UPS. So, if you have a 1400VA UPS, you'll probably only have a couple 12V 17AH batteries. To get a longer "runtime" commercially, you would have to get a higher capacity UPS. This would cause you to buy a heavier duty UPS than you really need and spend a lot more for it, when all you really need is higher storage capacity in the batteries.

    If your company is really small and cheap, and has a hands-on mentality, which in this economy seems to be making a come-back, you could take a properly sized UPS and extend its run-time capacity merely by buying a couple batteries. For instance, I have an APC 1400 UPS for my office servers, I got two 12 V 35VA batteries in addition to the standard 17A ones that came with it. I tripled the run-time storage while leaving the load capacity the same.

    UPS companies don't like this, because they like to sell bigger products, but its your money.

  47. Another possibility... by andreMA · · Score: 1

    Have you considered trying a bunch of these?

  48. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by Idarubicin · · Score: 1

    "5 9's" of reliability still leaves 1.14 hours per year of outages.

    5 nines - 99.999% - reliability is about 5 minutes of downtime per year, not more than an hour.

    --
    ~Idarubicin
  49. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

        Sorry, my math failed me this morning. Don't expect too much from the math department on weekends. :)

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  50. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by afidel · · Score: 1

    Actually Windows tends to do the best with unplanned shutdowns, I've had way worse times with Solaris and Linux boxes then I ever had with Windows. I hear AIX and zOS are even worse, but they are generally used in professional datacenters and so unplanned power outages are much less common.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  51. if (Hyper-V) by deejay1 · · Score: 1

    If you use Hyper-V VM-s then don't go into APC SmartUPS if you're not willing to spend additional money for their "dedicated" network shutdown software...

  52. Re:Shill detected by couchslug · · Score: 2, Informative

    "I can smell the curry from here."

    Shmuck detected.

    Large lead-acid batteries (or Optima batteries if servicing is a concern) are cheap compared to most UPS batteries, inverters are old, proven technology, and systems using them are easy to set up.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  53. Liebert by gollito · · Score: 1

    Liebert makes some really nice middle class UPS. Plus they have external chassis that can exptend uptime. Add the web card and you got email alerts whenever it does anything.

  54. Umm... redundant power supplies are for failures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You say you don't have redundant power supplies because you don't have the
    capacity.

    Redundant power supplies don't double your current draw... they allow you
    to continue to operate if one power supply (or one power feed) fails.

    If you need uptime and you DON'T have redundant power supplies, you're...
    misguided.

    Ideally you'll have separate circuits that can independently handle
    the full load, too, but don't be fooled into thinking a UPS will solve
    everything.

    That said, APC SMART-UPS are quite good, but if you have a big enough
    operation you might want to look into a bigger datacenter UPS solution.

  55. Single large UPS - such as PowerWare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You might consider a larger UPS from Eaton like the PowerWare units. These units can be sized to power the entire data center and your desktop computers. They can handle printer and photocopiers and easily become worth it when you start looking at purchasing a pile of individual UPS units.

    We have two PowerWare units because our servers have redundant power supplies and this gives us full redundancy in the data center. We can also run the couple of laser printers we have in the data center. Then we wired half of the building to one UPS and the rest to the other UPS. The orange outlets at the desktop are for the computer equipment and are wired to the UPS units. We get a lot of thunderstorms and power fluctuations and now our operation continues faithfully. Note that all of our networking gear and telecomm are also on the Eaton units. We saved thousands of dollars in our situation. We have 48 servers in 14 racks and about 350 desktops.

  56. Lease a generator set by slincolne · · Score: 1
    Lease a genset. Don't buy - lease.

    Lease companies take care of the messy bits like maintenance, and you don't need to worry about the ability of the technicians - it's the companies problem.

    Of course as part of this you will probably need to review the state of your existing UPS's - if they are no longer covered by the manufacturers warranty then the batteries probably need replacing by now.

  57. Colocation by liam193 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    With the current availability of fairly inexpensive bandwidth, why are you running servers at your location? There simply isn't much justification for any business not in the fortune 500 to go the route of "build your own" Catacenter. If it must be up, look at the option of renting rack space from a Telecom provider that takes care of generator power for you. Most of these will do a rack for a couple hundred a month that includes the generator backup. You may need to get a small UPS that handles the "blip" until the generator kicks in (they usually tell you that you need a few seconds of UPS), but it sounds like you already have units to put at the bottom of the rack that will handle that. You then have servers that will survive as long as the provider has fuel. Anything else is going to cost you far more. Most likely you can find one that will provide decent bandwidth from your location to theirs and provide you with an Internet connection at the Colo that is less expensive because it doesn't have the local loop to your facility. This probably would offset much of the cost for bandwidth that you will need from your office to your servers at the Colo.

    1. Re:Colocation by adolf · · Score: 1

      I agree. He should just put everything on Amazon S3, and let the cloud take care of it. (Oh, and fire a couple of people to pay for it.)

  58. Redundant PSU vs. UPS by Hymer · · Score: 2, Informative

    An UPS is not an alternative to redundant PSUs, it just seems that way until your PSU fails.
    I've got a server room with about 150 servers (physical and virtual) every physical server got redundant PSU and the whole room runs on a PowerWare 9305 30 kVA UPS.
    ...and yes I should have redundant UPSes too, I just dont have the room for another one.

  59. Look at the big picture regarding power by cfryback · · Score: 1

    I know with only 30 end users getting the funds to do this can be a challenge....It was for use (local council) until literally every time our HVAC systems would draw extra because of heat or cold, the whole phase would trip out...Thus we would have a mad panic to the DC to shutdown servers manually! Finally got a electrician (big hint here, get one familiar with Datacentres!) who looked at all three phases of power coming into our building. The first thing that we did (after a facepalm of the original setup) was to load balance ALL the power coming in, and moved the Datacentre power to a different phase than the HVAC - a no brainer, but no one before me really had thought of this! The second phase of what we did, was to run our own 3 phases right from the main switchboard into the Datacentre with the main breakers in the Datacentre, then a couple of sub-panels.We now have our Datacentre with a North/South power distribution feeding two Liebert UPS's that in turn, feed PDU's. So if we loose one phase, things will "scream" and email off alerts - but things will stay up. We still (because of the age of our first UPS) need a physical server connected to the UPS via serial, but the newer one has a web card in it. I have a script that if both UPS end up on battery mode, a graceful suspend of the VM's starts, with our exchange and DC's being the last to suspend. We happen to be a Windows shop, with a HP C7000 blade enclosure that is our VMware farm, connected to HP EVA 4100 which the two SAN switches have up to 96 hours of write cache. The other thing that I am looking at on its own small UPS is a MikroTik 411u with a prepaid 3G to give us independent source of SMS's. There is little point of having a SMS server that is going to be shutdown because it is on UPS. The key thing to remember about UPS (as far as I am concerned) - is that they are not a replacement for mains power. The suggestions for a generator are interesting given the fact that you only have 30 end users, the expense, maintenance of them would make them cost prohibitive tive in your environment. But 30 minutes to bring up a DC?

  60. Batteries.. Damaged UPS's.. and Exchange. Oh My. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    - Check your batteries by opening up your UPS unit maintenance doors. At a guess you are probably using APC 700/1000 class units that have bulged batteries or blown batteries. An APC 700 should have a 5 minute burn time on a 1Kwatt load if it is working. An APC3000 class unit has about a 15-20 minute burn time on a 1Kwatt load.
    - Server Rack wiring: If your servers have redundant power supplies, and you have the money for a duplicate UPS unit, put each power supply 'side' into a different UPS.
    - Run the ups monitoring software.

    I personally like the following configuration:
    1 APC3K class UPS for the entire rack.
    1 ACP700 class UPS for every server.
    - "Split" redundant power connections (see above)
    - All servers monitor their APC700 class UPS.
    - Script shut down sequence in proper order.

    Your shutdown/reboot times are a little scary. Delete any "dead" user profiles in your C:\Documents and Settings\ directory. Defrag your sys and data drives, disable all unneeded services. On your exchange server, go into the network configuration and change the DNS server names to the IP#'s of the DNS server(s). Unbind NetBios from TCP/IP on the servers that don't supply printer/file sharing services. Go into your exchange server managment utility, look at your mailboxes and delete any dead email boxes. Clean up your mailbox stores by defragging them.

    It's not perfect, but most of that should help.

  61. 1 UPS per PC by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 2, Informative

    At home, I use 1 APC UPS per PC, except for the laptop. These cheap units give about 30 minutes for the PC and its immediate peripherals (displays, external disks). The PCs run Ubuntu, and automatically recognized the UPS units when they were connected via USB ports. Another UPS powers the fiber switch, headless server, and router. Yet another keeps the network printer and an ethernet switch powered. Total of 4 APC UPS units and less than 350euro investment.

    We need this, because we're in the countryside, where power glitches are depressingly common - but often last just a second or two. If the outage lasts until the UPS goes below 50%, then the systems shut down gracefully. By then, of course we would have saved any work in progress. Keeping the whole LAN in operation during this time is essential.

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
  62. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Since Windows has so many 'unplanned shutdowns', they probably had to make it handle them well.

  63. Cheap Used UPSes? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    I don't need any fancy new UPSes, but I sure could use a whole lot of cheap ones - maybe 150KWh total capacity. Where's somewhere to buy the lowest $:KWh that can actually be gotten from some old ones, even if they're a little worn out, so long as they'll last another 5 years at that superior $:KWh? Even if they fill a whole room.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  64. APC has this covered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    APC sells a Symmetra 3-phase UPS from 20kA to 80kA. The small ones only take up a whole cabinet. Run two power distribution units to each rack and plug the redundant server power supplies into different PDUs.

    Batteries are hot-swap able.
    power can be switched to bypass if the unit itself needs to be serviced.
    Modules are available that connect to the network to provide monitoring and alerting capabilities.
    software is provided that monitors the UPS and will shutdown servers if battery runtime gets too low.
    APC can be contracted to perform annual or bi-annual maintenance.
    The unit is very expandable should your needs grow, and is usually as simple as adding an additional power unit or just more batteries.

  65. For my money... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am starting a (very) small business, with one computer to be left on 24/7. The power requirements are not large, but in my estimation, the biggest worry I have is not a power outage lasting tens of minutes (or hours or days), but rather fully transient. Primarily, if I can keep the server from going hiccup for 10-20 seconds --either a lightning strike or a brown out-- then I will feel comfortable. I had a UPS on a small machine that would do that, (good for maybe 3-5 minutes) but my biggest concern was things like transients, spikes, ring waves, etc. No lightning strike or brown out ever lasted more than 30 seconds, and the UPS and surge protectors might get hammered, but not the server. If your revenue and needs require 10-20 minutes, then go get more (even a backup generator that will keep things going for days).

  66. Propane stand by generator by 2ndRateSoul · · Score: 1

    I run the infrastructure for a couple of small companies. I use PowerWare 9120 fully online UPS's that can power the rack of 5 servers and misc routers, firewalls, whatnot for about an hour. For around $6K I had a Generac emergency auto-failover generator installed which has worked flawlessly. Power goes about for about 45 seconds and I'm back online with full power.

    When running on a smallish generator there are some things you need to know. You'll need fully online UPS's. The cheap consumer grade ones you buy at Best Buy probably won't cut it. Here's some more info: http://yml.com/fv-b-1-71/Generac-Guardian-Emergency-Standby-Generator.html

  67. What can brown-out do for you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    har har har har har I'z so phuny!

  68. What is wrong with your domain controllers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If your domain controllers take 15 minutes to shut down, then:

    - your domain controllers are running on very dilapidated old hardware
    - your domain controllers are sluggish because they are infested with spyware & rootkits
    - you have the biggest active directory installation anyone has ever seen

    Domain controllers should take less than a minute to shut down, and typically much less.

    1. Re:What is wrong with your domain controllers? by RobertM1968 · · Score: 1

      If your domain controllers take 15 minutes to shut down, then:

      - your domain controllers are running on very dilapidated old hardware - your domain controllers are sluggish because they are infested with spyware & rootkits - you have the biggest active directory installation anyone has ever seen

      Domain controllers should take less than a minute to shut down, and typically much less.

      - Or you are running Windows Server with a lot of services that need to be stopped.

      - Or you are running Windows Server on an older box that used to be overkill for it, but since all the years worth of updates is just marginal (yet too expensive to replace... as an example, we just had to purchase a new WS2003 license for a client to do a reinstall. MS recommends WS2008... but when you look at the resource requirements, you realize that the (used to be top of the line) HP server that's 6 years old doesnt even come halfway to the required specs... meaning upgrade the HP as much as possible due to performance loss after all the service packs and hotfixes, or replace it with another $20,000 server so they can run WS2008 - no, a generic, build at home, server is not an option. They require the redundancy and high end components that are in their current server).

      - Or there are client stations that are taking forever to honor the disconnect request, forcing the server to wait for the timeout period before force-disconnecting them - and then it can start the shutdown of the services in it's goal of shutting down the server.

      So, no, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with their setup.

    2. Re:What is wrong with your domain controllers? by gatkinso · · Score: 1

      Since the OP stated that most of their servers are VM's, I strongly doubt the hardware is terribly ancient.

      The hypervisor could be dreadfully overloaded, but a setup servicing 30 people can be accomidated with low end equipment.

      Off the cuff I would agree that the Domain Controller needs to be looked at.

      --
      I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    3. Re:What is wrong with your domain controllers? by RobertM1968 · · Score: 1

      I agree too... but I am pointing out that such may not be the only problem... as it is, the "high end" HP at one of the companies we support, even after a fresh install (and installing all the updates) would be inadequate for 30 users that moderately to heavily use the machine - such was not the case when it was purchased.

      Keep in mind that the memory and CPU requirements for the same OS (Windows XP, Windows Server ____) have doubled to quadrupled since their initial releases. Remember the days of XP coming preloaded on machines with 128MB of RAM? I do... Can you even imagine it booting on that now? Not just can I not imagine it... but SP3 (and possibly SP2) wont even install and report that there is not enough memory to support the service pack (or some such... I should remember the exact wording, as I just got that message today on a customer's machine). I've got another machine in here now with a "whopping" 256MB and preinstalled XP. "It used to be so fast... but now it's slow as a dog... I dont know why. It's a new installation and all" - of course, you and I know that's simply because XP with SP3 and the 60+ fixes since then, requires a lot more than 256MB to run - much less run itself and this customer's selection of either Word 2003 or WordPerfect 11.

      As for the VM issue... well, I've run Windows XP and Windows Vista in VMs on rather ancient machines (including one being an ancient AMD Athlon 1200), and run Windows XP in a VM on a PII 300. So... though we both would suspect that the hardware shouldn't be that ancient, we may both be wrong.

      So, I agree with you... heck, any time a server slows down beyond the norm, it's time to check for a cause... just saying without more details, the hardware can indeed be the bottleneck with a fully up to date version of Windows.

    4. Re:What is wrong with your domain controllers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - Or you are running Windows Server with a lot of services that need to be stopped.

      Well, then that isn't a domain controller issue, is it? The problem is all the non-active directory software. Most of our domain controllers are older Dell 2650 Poweredge servers with 1 gig ram, 3 disk raid, and redundant power supplies. Despite being older systems, they work great, are very reliable, and fully managed with Dell Openmanage remote software (and yes, they are still under warranty).

      And frankly, our domain controllers run wins, dns, RIS, WDS, print queues, and quite a few other admin functions. None take more than a minute to shut down.

      we just had to purchase a new WS2003 license for a client to do a reinstall. MS recommends WS2008... but when you look at the resource requirements, you realize that the (used to be top of the line) HP server that's 6 years old doesnt even come halfway to the required specs... meaning upgrade the HP as much as possible due to performance loss after all the service packs and hotfixes, or replace it with another $20,000 server so they can run WS2008 - no, a generic, build at home, server is not an option. They require the redundancy and high end components that are in their current server).

      You're saying that you need a 20k server to run win2008? Riiiight. I haven't priced out HP gear lately, but Dell rack servers with redundant power, 4 gig ecc memory, raid with SAS disks, and out-of-band management are 4k or less.

      - Or there are client stations that are taking forever to honor the disconnect request, forcing the server to wait for the timeout period before force-disconnecting them - and then it can start the shutdown of the services in it's goal of shutting down the server.

      So, no, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with their setup.

  69. Are you electrical code compliant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You sound like you're big enough to have a "computer room" (even if it's just a closet).. Once you get to that point, you need to start involving professionals in the design. Have you looked at Emergency Power Off switching for the DC bus (so the firefighters don't get electrocuted)? What about fusing of that battery bank? (DC rated fuses and switches?) What about venting requirements?

    1. Re:Are you electrical code compliant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What century are you living in?
      Emergency Power Off? on main inverter module, external switches via simple low-voltage NC circuit.
      Battery fuses? Integrated in battery modules, so are battery cut-off switches.
      Venting? For *sealed* Lead-Acid?
      And where is the maintenance bypass switch?
      Don't forget, you need a licensed electrician or trained monkey for wiring it :P

  70. Re:APC SmartUPS, hibernate by dfries · · Score: 1

    I have apcupsd setup so when the battery is a 50% the system hibernates to disk. That way when the power comes back on they pick up where they left off and an extended power outage turns into a break instead of trying to remember what was gone on. I justify hibernating at 50% battery left to avoid deep discharging the battery and there's a few minutes of reserve capacity if I really need something before the power comes back on. The wake on lan feature is one thing I haven't implemented yet, and is needed for one of my systems that doesn't have a BIOS mode always turn on when it gets power.

  71. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What kind of hell-hole has 12 hours (!) of power-outs per year? I think I haven't even experienced that much power-outs in my life (though, admittedly, they can occur at night while I'm asleep).

  72. Expandable UPS by penfold69 · · Score: 1

    Condition your incoming power with one of these babies:

    http://www.gamatronic.com/PowerPlusUps.aspx?prod=52

    Nicely expandable, redundant and just perfect for small to medium sized server rooms.

    P.

    --
    Beer Coat: The invisible but warm coat worn when walking home after a booze cruise at 3 in the morning.
  73. Re:Shill detected by Xofer+D · · Score: 1

    I'd love to see photos of your setup.

    --
    The Signal/Noise ratio can be improved in two ways. Remaining silent is the OTHER way.
  74. Very simple recommendation... by RobertM1968 · · Score: 1

    - Determine your power usage per UPS

    - Look at the runtime specs (at that load) for a new UPS

    - Purchase the new UPS.

    It's really almost that simple. Really.

    The only other considerations are

    (a) Realizing getting an "el-cheapo" UPS is often a great way of ensuring failure

    (b) Properly determining any other needs the UPS should handle (active line filtering, etc)

    That's pretty much it. Yes, it may cost you more money than you want to spend, but sometimes spending the money is the only option.

    Now, there are other alternatives that may save some money.

    - Find a used UPS that has inexpensive batteries. Before purchase, make sure all the electronics/charging circuit(s) are functional. Then purchase it and replace the batteries. I've scored 3 decent APC UPS that way and then replaced the batteries in them, leaving me with three "virtually new" UPS units for far cheaper than buying the exact same units new.

    - Find a new or used UPS that does NOT meet your needs but allows adding battery expansion modules. But first, research it for "aftermarket" expansion methods. As an example, the APC UPS units I have allow such. I can "simply" find the correct AGM batteries, wire them correctly and hook them up directly to the battery harness for my unit... apparently, some crafty people out there have used the same model UPS in such manner and gotten DAYS worth of runtime. Of course, it also means DAYS worth of charging time.

    - Look for an alternative method of power backup, such as an "instant" on generator that is "electronics AND computer rated" (and then still run the UPSs on the inside end of it and ensure they do line filtering, sine wave correction and power out-of-range (brownouts, over-voltage) protection.

    - Create your own UPS units using high quality true-sine inverters and decent deep-cycle batteries. You can find the inverters for such at any decent "off-the-grid"/solar supplier. Get one that will recharge the batteries when main power is restored. Also ensure it can charge as many batteries as you need for the required runtime. The advantage of this method is, with the correct inverter, you can add a ton (possibly literally) of batteries to have massive amounts of runtime - and you can buy higher Ah batteries cheaper. Ensure the batteries are properly cabled, stored and (sealed or otherwise) vented.

  75. More Battery Capacity by rMortyH · · Score: 1

    Hello-
          Most larger APC units have an external battery connector on the back. It uses an Anderson connector to connect an external battery pack. Also, you can chain battery packs, to have more than one. The external battery packs are expensive but they can be worth it for this very problem.

          There's also the DIY method for VERY long uptime!

          At my shop, in the locked cabinet, we have an ancient APC 1400 unit, with the batteries REMOVED, and two wal-mart deep-cycle marine batteries connected to the external connector. The batteries are 24-DC 12Volt, 75 amp hour batteries in series, for 24 volts. (grey connector) We disabled the beeper in the unit (with pliers... YANK) This keeps a rack with 7 computers up for several HOURS.

        This worked so well we decided to go one better! In the main closet, with extension cords running to the machines in the rest of the shop, we have a 3000VA APC unit. It has a 48 volt input (blue connector), not 24. On this sucker we put FOUR 27-DC 115 amp hour deep-cycle batteries, again from Wal-mart (best price, sorry) in series, connected to the back of the unit with the external connector. For these I got lucky and found a really nice set of cables.

        This sucker powers all the machines outside the rack, as well as some flat panels, and a desk lamp. (So we don't break our necks!)

        I was worried that the current would be too much for the charger, but I've run them down and back up again and they're fine. I guess the UPS units are made to handle two or so external battery packs, so they handle the lead-acid jumbos just fine.

        We've had these for a few years, and even had the same power outage here in SF that took out 365 Main a few years ago and had no problems. I need to do another plug-pull test, but our loads are not that high and we can get up to eight hours! Again, pull out the beepers or you'll pull out your hair.

        Some tips- You need nice, big cables to do this. Also, there are some code issues for large lead-acid batteries, so if you want to be completely legal buy the APC external battery units. If you buy at Wal-mart find some old dead lead batteries before you go or they'll charge you $9 core per unit. They really don't care if it's the same kind of battery, I traded in the old APC Sealed units for the marine batteries ten times as big! Unlike the sealed ones, the deep-cycles are spillable so be careful. I have never had them spill but if you tip them over they will probably spill some acid.

        Have fun!

    =Rich

    P.S. If you want more info on this or pictures, you can email me (public account) at rich underscore humphrey at yahoo

    1. Re:More Battery Capacity by TClevenger · · Score: 1

      I was worried that the current would be too much for the charger, but I've run them down and back up again and they're fine. I guess the UPS units are made to handle two or so external battery packs, so they handle the lead-acid jumbos just fine.

      That's the key. Some el-cheapo UPS units might cook if they're expected to either charge the batteries or provide full power from the batteries for a lot longer than the tiny internal batteries would be able to provide. Look for one that has a fan that runs when either on battery or charging. It's a safe bet that the units designed for external battery packs would have proper cooling to handle this hack.

      Also, it's a good idea to use sealed deep cycle batteries (such as Optimas or Exide Orbitals.) Floodies tend to give off hydrogen gas and a fine acid mist when charging, requiring special venting when indoors.

  76. Broken DC by JSG · · Score: 1

    An AD DC for 30 odd people takes 15 mins to shut down? I'd fix that first if I was you.

    Next, decide what can stand being killed off immediately as soon as you switch to battery - eg one out of two DCs, backup servers, !database servers. It's your decision here.

    Next look at your requirements ie kVA to run systems, decide how long to keep them alive in the event, do the maths and then look at the price list. Oh and buy a small diesel generator and get people educated in what to do with it. If your nearest petrol (gas) station is 20 mins away then you'll need at least 45 mins on battery unless you can store fuel on site.

  77. Natural gas generator by gatkinso · · Score: 1

    Screw diesil. A natural gas generator will serve you far better and reliably.

    If gas is available at your location that is. If the gas goes out there are likely far larger problems to contend with.

    However I would probably fix your domain controller first. 30 people... 15 minute shutdown? What's up with that?

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  78. Use laptops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've started using laptops for internal servers. You should too. They're small, energy efficient, and have huge upss

  79. dammit, folks, he wants brand names by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Quit talking about generators and shit.

    Here's my anti-recommendation: IBM. Forget IBM when it comes to cheap consumer-level UPSes. Didn't work worth a shit. APC worked much better, though can't say they're good enough that I'd recommend.

    The sad truth, though, as a few others have mentioned, you really have to replace 'em every few years. Even if you hardly ever have outages, they only last 3-4 years. No fire and forget; your servers will long outlast your UPS. Budget accordingly.

  80. A UPS won't fix non-redundant power supplies by funnyguy · · Score: 1

    Redundant power supplies are to provide high availability in the case one fails. You can look at a couple things though.

    Most UPS vendors have a network-based communication between server and UPS. It may be a premium feature, but it should shutdown a server when the power goes out.

    As for power in general, if you need longer times, I would look into some form of generation. APC even makes fuel cell in-datacenter generators. You need a Hydrogen supply and a water drain.

  81. Don't forget server cooling by dan_barrett · · Score: 1

    Our site runs 24/7.

    We have two Eaton Powerware UPS'es running our server room in tandem. They are linked so they stay in phase with each other and incoming mains power. both UPS'es run at about 40% capacity, so if we lose one, or need to shut one down for maintenance, the other can handle the whole server room. We've had problems in the past with UPS'es suddenly failing; so our critical gear runs on the assumption we'll have a UPS fail again at some point, or we can at least keep running whie we change out a UPS and/or it's batteries.

    Our setup is designed to keep everything running until our diesel genset kicks in, usually within 2 minutes or so - I think the UPS'es have about 15 minutes capacity at full load. If that fails to start then the UPS monitoring software gracefully shuts everything down. We test everything every three months by simulating a power loss (ie, we put the relevant apps in maintenance mode, throw the mains power switch and watch what happens.)

    The genset also powers the airconditioning in the server room. There's no point keeping your servers running for hours if they're not kept cool; they're just going to cook once your server room gets over 50 degrees anyway.
    If you're expecting to run on backup power for more than an hour or so, make sure your backup power solution can handle your cooling requirements too! Also make sure your cooling comes back on when power is restored!

    By the way, some people are saying "secondary site instead" - in my opinion you need both; ie a disaster recovery site and backup power for both sites.

  82. Do my job for me, please? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We're a small company employing ~30 people and we are becoming increasingly reliant on virtual servers. Unfortunately, the hosts they are on don't have redundant power supplies because we simply don't have the capacity. We currently have one UPS per rack, which gives us about two minutes. This may have been enough time when they were put in -- they've been there for some time -- but it isn't really enough time to shut everything down in the event of a failure. Domain Controllers alone may take up to 15 minutes. So I'm looking at upgrading the UPSs to ones that would preferably give us around 15 minutes of breathing space and send an email or text alert when a failure is detected. Something that could trigger shutdowns automatically would also be nice. Of course cost is a key factor too. so given all of the above, what does Slashdot recommend?

    Let me translate this for you: "I have no clue, don't have the slightest idea about how to gauge power requirements, despite the fact that I have access to all of the hardware, and, if I HAD a clue, could do this myself. So, please, do my job for me?"

    I am of the opinion that "Ask Slashdot" should be renamed to "Do my job for me" or "think for me" or "Google for me" - all in favor - respond by saying AYE.

    1. Re:Do my job for me, please? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i think your wrong because slashdot is a place were things like this can be talked about after all not all of us are power engineers and so they should help.

  83. Re:Shill detected by mukund · · Score: 3, Informative

    Here they are: inverter1.jpg, inverter2.jpg

    I'm sorry it's pretty dusty, but this has been exposed to the elements for the past year. It has to be kept outside because of the lead-acid batteries, which need to be ventilated. The stand is an old TV stand reused to host this. The inverter is on top. The batteries are at the bottom.

    The little yellow alien looking caps that you see filters that the acidic fumes from the batteries. Each cap tops a cell. The little stick on top indicates the liquid level inside the cell. After about a month, the levels go down in some of the caps and I call the local shop to come and top-up distilled water. Basically the water evaporates whereas the acid is still there, so they fill in distilled water. I could do this myself, but the local shop does it for about $1 so I just let the experts handle it :).

    --
    Banu
  84. Going cheep by mcrbids · · Score: 1

    Going cheap? I've had to. Here are a couple options that are surprisingly cheap:

    1) If your UPS can actually handle the whole amperage of the servers, but the batteries only give you a few minutes, consider going to Wal-Mart or the nearest auto parts store and buying a few deep-cycle marine batteries. They aren't cheap, but they aren't exactly bank-busters, either. Find out how many volts your UPS is (typical voltages range from 12 to 48 volts and are basically always in 12-volt increments, EG: 12/24/48. If you are frightened by wiring work, finding an electrician buddy isn't too hard typically, but it's barely more complicated than jumper cables.

    Years ago, I got ahold of 4 deep-cycle marine batteries that were about a year old for a song from an upgrade. I took apart my craptastic APC UPS and wired in the deep-cycle marine batteries. It worked fabulously for about 3-4 years, and gave me some 8 hours of battery life for my two small servers. With the bigger batteries, the UPS wouldn't even start a low-voltage warning beep for nearly an hour when the power went out!

    2) The other option is probably one you hadn't considered, because you thought it would be "expensive" - and that's a dedicated colo. Surprisingly, you can get a half-rack and a burstable 100 Mbit Internet connection at a colo starting at about $200 or so per month. And as the amount of bandwidth being consumed climbs, the deal gets even sweeter.

    I have 10 servers in a half rack serving hundreds of high-paying clients, our company's primary revenue is in a complex, hosted application, and our hosting bill is less than either our office power or our phone bill. Despite this, we make sure to brag everywhere we can about the high quality of our hosting! If your needs exceed a certain minimum, dedicated hosting is the way to go, and we have redundant power, redundant network feeds, all the bandwidth we could ever use, and 24x7 monitoring to boot! It's a really, really good deal if your needs are compatible.

    --
    I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    1. Re:Going cheep by stairs_and_flowers · · Score: 1

      If your just looking for longer run time, you can take a look
      into larger battery packs.

      If your into doing things cheap, use a surplus APC 3000 chassis in the
      manner as i've done at home. 4x 120ah 12v batteries, or for longer run times
      8 6v golf cart batteries. Each setup is good to run 15 amps for a while.

      So for less than 1k installed , NEXT to the machine room, not in it
      (unless you want to pay for cooling things that are fine at 80 deg f)
      you have lots of low cost power, just replace the battery every few years.

      Test by running the system down to %80, then kicking in a gen set and
      charging to %100, then switch over to "normal" power. Monthly.

      If you include a 30 amp (continuous) rated gen set per UPS you should be
      able to extend your run time. Your gen set should put out the maximum that
      your UPS can, and what it takes to charge your batteries, plus about
      %35 for overhead, safety and longevity.

      A good way to size the UPS is to use the name plate amperage to limit the
      machines that connect to it. Its an easy way to convince nontechnical people,
      to give you the headroom you want.

      Or you can do what I recommend large data centers do, buy used gen sets in bulk,
      and have 2N for what you think you should have...

      I like going to the ship breakers and getting the 60hz sets (or 50hz
      convertible to 60) from them. Depending on the stock levels, you
      can get quite a nice price on a few in bulk, then have them refurbished
      to Lloyd of London specs (or better), and shipped.

      At 2N, who cares if you drop a few a year, you can power your
      whole campus during an outage, or peak shave and reduce your
      power bill. It might even be cost effective to get more, than to rebuild.

      Be careful what you order, and how its done, you could end up with a
      bunch of miss matched parts, (no common spares) or the wrong thing,
      or to big of a gen set... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D24EMlA8Bzc
      when you wanted this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYKoaS7bEuI&feature=related

      oohh look, my fav , and its ebay... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180459158144&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=WVF%3F&GUID=022207c11230a040b1c48554ffdfcdaf&itemid=180459158144&ff4=263602_263622

      look its a 6 pack of used gen sets... air start, and natural gas.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQwaVwj8I7w&feature=related

      or if you can find one of these, (or kludge something like this together)
      http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/news/ram_contractor.html
      you can drive your gen set to work.

  85. Modify the UPS by dogzdik · · Score: 1

    Change the inverter circuitry to a continuous running configuration - of heat sinking the power transistors etc., and fan cooling them and other components. Then add in a bigger battery bank. Test with a dummy load of 120% for 30 minutes and then put it into service.

    --

    .

    Voting up, Voting down - If I really gave a fuck about your approval or not, I'd come and ask you.

  86. Wow, its amature hour on ask slashdot by lusid1 · · Score: 1

    First off, no redundant PSU because they "don't have the capacity"? You not only need a UPS, you need an electrician.

    Second, no sizing data? What is the peak load at startup per rack? What is the average running load per rack?

    What would be your ideal runtime?

    How many racks?

    Peak Load will tell you how large a UPS you need (in KVA), Average load and run time will tell you how many expansion batteries you need to buy.

    Buy the management card for your UPS and configure it to send you email alerts. While you're at it load the client software on your VMs so they know when to gracefully shutdown.

    Ask your electrician if you need 3phase or 2phase (my money's on 2 for you)

    Then get the electrician to install enough dedicate power circuits to drive your new UPS(s). While you're at it, ground the racks.

    Then call your AC guy, because once you've done enough math to buy a UPS you'll have enough data to correctly size the AC in your server room.

    When you find out management doesn't care about extended recovery time and data loss, and they shoot down the CAPEX for your UPS project, you can focus on things that really matter: good backups and your resume.

  87. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, "5 9's" is 5.256 MINUTES per year of outage...still not zero...and amazingly difficult to achieve.

  88. look how google does it by Rayder · · Score: 1

    Not for everyone but google as a really clever solution http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10209580-92.html

    I don't like those big UPSs, they are expensive, a lot of unneeded HW and they barely work when you need them most (expensive, small discharge time, batteries losing charge capacity .. )

    So for our own datacenter we keep the currently bought UPSs and added some laptops for really critical services, we virtualice a lot too (OpenVZ) and both technologies enables us to degrade services gracefully and still keep high uptimes, laptops are great, cheap, and batteries can last up to 2 hours. It's not a solution for everyone, but works if your platform can be adapted to the architecture.

    1. Re:look how google does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does using laptops as servers infringe on googles patent for USPs?

  89. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You want to say 99.999% of availability, not reliability.

    This is BTW just 5.26 minutes of unavailability per year on earth, but maybe you live elsewhere? ;-)

  90. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by CharlieMurphy · · Score: 1

    For Solaris you need to ensure "logging" is enabled in the vfstab for each ufs filesystem. Once this is set the box won't sit there in single usermode after an unscheduled powerdown, it should fsck without any issues.

  91. I hate every USP I've ever used. by thogard · · Score: 1

    I've been using UPSs for close to 3 decades and I'm not sure they have saved more more grief than they caused.

    My latest attempt to get things working correctly involves a telco grade N+1 type system using 4 1KW (maybe they are 750w?) inverter modules form Eltek Valere that run off a -48V battery bank made up of 8 truck sized deep cycle floating cell batteries in two banks. Its a pain to check the fluid levels but it can cope with far worse situations than the sealed lead acid batteries. The battery bank is charged by a a pair of rectifiers also from Eltek Valere. The next goal for that is to hook up a KW or two of solar panels to the battery bank. The idea is to power some things directly off the -48V system as well.

    The second system I run was intended to use a Selectronics PS1 and a charger/inverter but it had a habit of trying to feed the grid for a few milliseconds before it decided it couldn't and then shut down both sides of the load. Its now uses as a batter bank charger and a UPS for things that need protection but won't be a problem if they fail due to power outages. The PS1 is the cleanest battery charger I have ever seen but its a bit expensive for that role. I wouldn't have a problem using one of their units in cases where the power was very bad and I had a proper generator.

    I also run small UPSs in the racks for things that should have ATS but don't. I stand by the statement that they have caused more harm than what they have helped. My old sun power supplies can take worse spikes than the 2RU UPS. I had an idiot electritian who kept tying phase 1 to phase 2 when my gear was on phase 3. Gee... every time I do this, it goes pop! I wonder why it doesn't work and try again just about the time the machines had rebooted. 240V 3 phase pumps 415V or more into odd phase out when you connect the other two. outch!

    A word about Automatic transfer swtiches and dual power supplies. When they have smarts built into them they can get into the game where "opps, phase A is down, switch to phase B" followed by "Opps phase B is dropping fast but Phase A looks ok now". The power flapping ends up doing nasty things to the grid power factor and modern power meters will take that into consideration and may charge far more for the power. Around here normal power can be had from $.08/kwh but bad power factor power can cost $.50 a kwh.

    I monitor my power with a Sentron PAC3200 which is a 3 phase, 4 inch digital volt meter with an ethernet jack. I get data every 30 seconds on volts, power, power factor, THD and other things it knows about and I plug that into rrdtool so I can look at the nice pictures after things break. If your only doing 10A, you can connect the thing directly and it will give you enough precision to tell which server power off even if they are nearly identical but if you take more than 10A you need current transformers which introduce more slop on the data. I put my PAC on the back end of my 3 UPS systems but I would like to get one for the front of the charges, the building as a whole and the computer room A/C systems.

    Did I mention I hate UPSs?

  92. No Matter What UPS Specs Say... by CAOgdin · · Score: 1

    ...Don't Believe Them. Most UPS' are woefully under-powered, with the intent to offer only a few minutes of uptime. I'm looking for a solution that uses external automobile batteries, instead of those "convenient" internal, sealed batteries. I recently acquired a 3,000 VA Rackmount UPS and with the load of a single 5W clock (to measure runtime), it was dead in 8 hours! About 2/3 of power in the batteries is used just to power the DC-to-AC converters, so count on a lot less power usable than specified.

  93. deeya energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    check out deeyaenergy,com, they build long kWh batteries which are cheaper to run than lead acid.

  94. Green UPS by flyneye · · Score: 1

    In order to be environmentally friendly so we don't have global warming and end up in another ice age there is something you can do. We all must do our part or you will get blamed next time we see a bald polar bear shed of its fur drinking an umbrella drink and munching deep fried penguin.

            Put up a wind charger system and backup array of solar panels on the roof. Set aside a spare office and fill it w/ 12v car batteries and the appropriate inverter boxes for your countries power needs. That way you can save a poor little penguin from the deep fryer and Al Gore can finally shave his male poser beard.

          O.K., that was a LOT tongue in cheek and I apologize to any penguins who may have been offended by my mention of Gore. I'm still burning from reading another article on /. about Minitrues subdivision of Miniclim.
    Seriously though I'm not even a greenie and I firmly believe wind and solar power not only make your properties look techie cool, but will also offset that horrible electric bill.
    There is a DIY site that can show you how to accomplish all this. http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.shtml I've spent many fun hours planning my own system to get off the grid and rid myself of a paycheck sucking bill.
              You may think I'm joking, but consider this, do you want to entrust your servers to the wiles of your local stupid greedy unionized electric company and some stupid UPS that needs replaced every couple years or take matters into your own hands?
            Food for thought,pass the penguin.

    --
    *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
  95. Contact your power company by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

    Most have programs designed to help business with power issues; they may have a solution that fits your needs and budget. It's free to ask; and you may wind up with an affordable maintenance free solution.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  96. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by trum4n · · Score: 1

    Windows can fsck itself up without any extra config work. It works right out of the box! Come to think of it.....you don't even need the power outage....

  97. size matters by nanimo · · Score: 1

    If the size of your company is best described by ~30 employees, the fact is that you will never be able to make it financially feasible to run your own infrastructure with a high enough service level. In this case it is best to move the infrastructure out to a service provider. On the other hand it is possible that you are not accurately describing your operation (multiple domain controllers for 30 people)?

  98. Reconsider your environment by jon3k · · Score: 1

    UPS should only last long enough for your generator to fire up and your automatic transfer switch to cut over to generator power. Trying to power an ever increasing datacenter on batteries is an exercise in futility. You think it's a problem now wait until you have a few HUNDRED servers. Half of your square footage will be batteries, not very cost effective when you consider the cost per square foot to power and cool your datacenter.

    But if your entire environment is virtualized, why not let someone else host it? Have you really considered whether or not you want to be in the business of running a datacenter? It can be far cheaper when you consider the total cost even including the transport you'd need to provision to access these systems. You even have the option of keeping a few systems on-site which you could power with your current UPS (DHCP, local domain controller for faster authentication, etc).

  99. Diesel generator by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    Your 2 minute holdup time is more than sufficient to start a Diesel generator and for an automatic transfer switch to fire.

    Put a 20kW (or whatever size you need) diesel generator outside and wire it into an ATS. It usually takes just a few seconds for the generator to start and switch the mains.

  100. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hi,

    How did you calculate your 5 9's allowed downtime of 1.14 hours?

    I may be mistaken but I figure it to be :

    365 x 24 x (1 - 0.99999) = 0.0876 hr = 5 min 15.36 sec / year

    99.999% availability is really quite good.

    I may be mistaken between availabilty & reliability or something?

  101. Re:1st. Identify Requirements by petermgreen · · Score: 1

    I live in the UK and most people I know have power like you describe with power cuts being things that happen at intervals measured in years. Most people I know in the UK experiance the same.

    However in more rural parts of the UK there is a lot of power carried by groups of three bare 11KV wires on poles and these are rather vulnerable to tree branches, unusually high winds etc. Power problems are common in these areas (mostly it's very short glitches as something briefly touches a power line but such areas get more long outages than urban areas as well)..

    Also remember that the downtime caused by a power outage can be considerablly longer than the power outage itself. Without a UPS you have at best a reboot and a disk check and at worst a major corruption issue to deal with after tha power is back on.

    --
    note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  102. Re:Shill detected by mukund · · Score: 1
    --
    Banu
  103. Use the Google Server Method by pfleming · · Score: 1

    Google uses on Mobo 12v batteries.
    Of course that would mean switching out all of the current servers.