California Lake's Arsenic Hints At a Shadow Biosphere

MichaelSmith writes "Scientists think that there might be arsenic-based life in Mono Lake, California. If it's shown to exist, such life could have evolved independently from our own, or it could have forked from ours at a very early stage."

Comments

Hmm..

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Any organism with an Adenosine triarsenate based energy transport structure would be a serious badass.

Arsenic and Phosphorus are quite similar, chemically; but I'm not nearly chemist enough to know if there are messy details preventing a suitably evolved biological system from substituting one for the other.

Though, this being the internet, I'm obliged to note that Chuck Norris already does.

Re:Hmm..

[wizardforce]

but I'm not nearly chemist enough to know if there are messy details preventing a suitably evolved biological system from substituting one for the other.

Well for one, a great deal of biochemistry involves ATP in normal life forms that has little to do with energy transport. Proteins can be activated through phosphorylation by ATP. DNA is constructed using ATP and its base analogues. Glucose must be phosphorylated twice before it is done being biochemically broken down to reducing equivalents and CO2. These processes especially phosphorylation of proteins and DNA structure, all work because PO4 is the right size. A system based on AsO4 would have proteins and genetic structure much different than our own structurally speaking. Also, the triarsenate analogues could very well be markedly unstable.

Re:Hmm..

[Anonymous Coward]

but I'm not nearly chemist enough to know if there are messy details preventing a suitably evolved biological system from substituting one for the other.

Well for one, a great deal of biochemistry involves ATP in normal life forms that has little to do with energy transport. Proteins can be activated through phosphorylation by ATP. DNA is constructed using ATP and its base analogues. Glucose must be phosphorylated twice before it is done being biochemically broken down to reducing equivalents and CO2. These processes especially phosphorylation of proteins and DNA structure, all work because PO4 is the right size. A system based on AsO4 would have proteins and genetic structure much different than our own structurally speaking. Also, the triarsenate analogues could very well be markedly unstable.

The Times article is dreadful.
Ronald S. Oremland of the USGS has been researching this for years. He is a fascinating speaker on the subject.
He has shown that there are microbes in Mono Lake that have an arsenic based metabolism.He and his team have elucidated a good part of the metabolic pathways involved Similar microbes are found in soil as well.

For a brief over view of the metabolism see http://microbiology.usgs.gov/geomicrobiology_arsenic.html

The important questions...

[acehole]

Can we eat them and are they tasty?

Re:The important questions...

[Shadow of Eternity]

Makes me wonder if we would be as toxic to them as they would be to us...

Re:The important questions...

[TheJokeExplainer]

Confused parent made a mistake and is actually referring to Cyanide which is said to smell and taste like bitter almonds, not Arsenic.

Re:The important questions...

[SEE]

Probably. Arsenic is toxic to us because of its chemical similarity to phosphorous. It reacts enough like phosphorous to get pulled into various reactions in our cells, and then enough differently to make the processes fail. In an organism that used arsenic instead of phosphorous, phosphorous would cause the same trouble.

Computer analogy -- In the old Eastern Bloc, clones of Western chips were reportedly made using "metric inches" of 25 millimeters instead of American inches of 25.4 mm. This worked fine electrically and mechanically when all the gear you were using was made to the same spec, but if you unknowingly tried to put a Western-made chip on 1/10th inch spacing into an Eastern Bloc socket on 2.5 mm spacing, or vice-versa, the incompatibility could cause failures. Similarly, it might be possible to build a cellular chemistry using arsenic instead of phosphorous. But if you put arsenic into a creature built with phosphorous or vice-versa, you're likely going to have failures as the cell unknowingly plugs the wrong element in.

Re:The important questions...

[macklin01]

I'm sorry, I don't know these computers you speak of. Can you put that in a car analogy?

Don't put unleaded in a diesel.

On an arsenic-based life form world

[Ukab the Great]

The highly intelligent life would find it bizarre that some organisms would actually thrive in an atmosphere with such a dangerous and corrosive gas like oxygen.

Paper by Wolfe-Simon et al.

[Group XVII]

Did Nature Also Choose Arsenic?

Re:Paper by Wolfe-Simon et al.

[Hurricane78]

Well, the answer is still: No.

I just read TFA. (Yeah, I know, shame on me. ;)

And actually, she is just taking buckets of the water, diluting them so they contain more arsenic and less phosphorus, and adding sugar etc, to see if she finds organisms who then thrive.
But the point is: She still found nothing at all. She’s just taking water and playing with it.

Now of course I’m not saying that the theory isn’t true. Since we simply don’t know it yet.
So her work is good and I’m happy she does it.

Just... saying that there is arsenic life there... is just disingenuous. If you know what I mean.
But I bet she did not intent to be disingenuous. Instead I bet, that the media hype machine is to blame.

Amazing

[blaster151]

I had just read about this possibility today in this book, a fascinating compendium of mini-essays by leading thinkers about scientific or social developments that may be around the corner. Existing tests for biological organisms are geared towards a working asssumption that life forms will be part of the basic, familiar biological tree that we are based on. A "shadow biosphere" was discussed as something that could potentially be an alternative hierarchy of life, so unfamiliar that we haven't understood how to look for it even though it could be relatively populous in certain niche areas of the earth.

Finding an alternative pathway to the evolution of complex life forms could affect our perception of how common life is in the universe and could be a stunning treasure trove of discovery and insight for biologists.

This is sheer speculation so far!

[Jane Q. Public]

Why should this merit our attention? All she does is speculate about it. I just read the paper she wrote about it in January of last year, and that was almost pure speculation too.

Tell you what: call us back when there is something to actually show us in this area. So far there is next to nothing but somebody's wild idea.

In the meantime, I have a theory of my own: all dinosaurs were thin at one end, much much thicker in the middle, then thin again at the other end.

Can I get a research grant please?

Re:This is sheer speculation so far!

[Jane Q. Public]

You have completely missed my point (as did, no doubt, those who modded it "troll"):

There is as yet -- even according to the recent paper she wrote -- virtually no evidence that a lifeform such as this exists. Sure, I am interested in new scientific findings. But this isn't a finding! It isn't news. It's just speculation. I submit that until there is some kind of evidence, her theory is worth just as much as the one I mentioned above. I.e., nothing.

This article is not worthy of Slashdot. If I want to read speculations about unusual life forms, I can just go pick up a science fiction book at the local store, which in many cases will contain at least as much science as presented here.

And I guess, in a nutshell, that is my point: We are shown no science here. And until there is some, this article was worth no more to me than the science fiction book I mentioned before. Less, in fact. Novels at least tend to be entertaining.

Re:This is sheer speculation so far!

[Group XVII]

It's well informed speculation. It seems like a methodical approach to developing a research agenda, and indeed we are told actual experiments are being conducted. I don't have any reason to doubt that. Probably more that a few people will find the topic fascinating. I'm sympathetic to your objection but it might be overstated.

Re:This is sheer speculation so far!

[Lije Baley]

Not worthy of Slashdot? ROFL. You must be have been asleep for the last 10 years.

Re:This is sheer speculation so far!

[NeutronCowboy]

You a) never worked in a scientific field and b) have no clue where scientific breakthroughs come from. Here's a clue: every single scientific breakthrough started in the same way: this is strange... I wonder if.... The big "proofs", the big shiny toys, the Nobel prizes are all the culmination of a long process that started with someone, somewhere going down a road that is based on sheer speculation. Many fail, a few succeed, but it all starts the same.

Yes, this is early. Yes, this is largely speculation. However, she does have a protocol, experiments that can produce data that can support her theory and a place where to start.

I'm glad science isn't done by bores like you, because we'd never get anything new.

I hate when that happens

[SEWilco]

Don't you hate when someone forks a project and then forgets about it, leaving an odd little version buried in an obscure corner?

Re:Arsenic life forms?

[rockNme2349]

Super rodents? I don't believe in them.

Re:Meanwhile

[skine]

Is that with no life still a lifeform?

Lol, arsenic genesis

[Hojima]

God: let there be man!
Secretary: god, R&D's on the other line, they're saying they made a new breakthrough.
God: what kind of breakthrough?
Secretary: apparently, phosphorus is better than arsenic and it's less polluting. They're saying that the efficiency of ATP alone is worth the transition.
God: medamnit, why didn't they get this to me sooner, I just finished breathing life into this guy. Now what am I supposed to do with poor Adamus?
Secretary: well, our lawyers did some digging and found that the name infringes on some obscure company that caught wind of the project and are already demanding royalties. That, and the EPA is starting to regulate arsenic more vigorously.
God: *sigh* time to make some cutbacks *pumps shotgun*

Yeah but she's calling the ball

[tjstork]

She's being a scientist of the most famous type - she's calling the play before hand. She's putting her reputation on the line, making a prediction, describing a means to test it, and then going to check it herself. She's arguing in the oldest of sense that her insight is right, and in doing so if she gets the job done and is actually right, she's going to be pretty darned famous.

This is far removed from a scientist making a droll statement based on a computer model. She's saying, there is another radically different kind of life on earth and that she is going to show us how to find it. It's worlds beyond cool. She's trying to be like Babe Ruth calling the home run before he does it, and the world just loves that sort of a thing. In a world where people live around the edges and fritter away at them, she's trying to kick open an entirely door. She gets it, and in a very intuitive and natural way, what a scientist is supposed to be - a leader, because their education gives them intuition born out by test, that shows us how to see new things. Life in a dead lake, alien to our own, how much more of a prediction do you need?

Re:Surprised

[Belial6]

No, here in California, we are smart enough to recognize that the Arsenic in the lake is naturally occurring, and is therefor healthy. No doubt one of our enterprising vegans will be bottling it and selling it with a big 'organic' label strung across the front.