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Wear Leveling, RAID Can Wipe Out SSD Advantage

storagedude writes "This article discusses using solid state disks in enterprise storage networks. A couple of problems noted by the author: wear leveling can eat up most of a drive's bandwidth and make write performance no faster than a hard drive, and using SSDs with RAID controllers brings up its own set of problems. 'Even the highest-performance RAID controllers today cannot support the IOPS of just three of the fastest SSDs. I am not talking about a disk tray; I am talking about the whole RAID controller. If you want full performance of expensive SSDs, you need to take your $50,000 or $100,000 RAID controller and not overpopulate it with too many drives. In fact, most vendors today have between 16 and 60 drives in a disk tray and you cannot even populate a whole tray. Add to this that some RAID vendor's disk trays are only designed for the performance of disk drives and you might find that you need a disk tray per SSD drive at a huge cost.'"

18 of 168 comments (clear)

  1. Little Flawed study. by OS24Ever · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This assumes that RAID controller manufacturers won't be making any changes though.

    RAID for years has relied on millisecond access times. So why spend a lot of money on an ASIC & Subsystem that can go faster? So taking a RAID card designed for slow (relatively) spinning disks and attaching them to SSD of course the RAID card is going to be a bottleneck.

    However subsystems are going to be designed to work with SSD that has much higher access times. When that happens, this so called 'bottleneck' is gone. You know every major disk subsystem vendor is working on these. Sounds like a disk vendor is sponsoring 'studies' to convince people not to invest in SSD technologies now knowing that a lot of companies are looking at big purchases this year because of the age of equipment after the downturn.

    --

    As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.

    1. Re:Little Flawed study. by vadim_t · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Sure, but why do you put 60 drives in a RAID?

      Because hard disks, even the high end ones, have quite low IOPS. You can attain the same performance level with much fewer SSDs. If what you need is IOPS and not lots of storage that's a good thing even. You reach the required level with much fewer drives, so you need less power, less space and less cooling.

    2. Re:Little Flawed study. by Anpheus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I agree. 60 drives in RAID0 are going to see between 150 and 200 IOPS/drive, maybe more for 2.5" drives right? So that's 12,000 IOPS.

      The X25-E, the new Sandforce controller, and I believe some of the newer Indilinx controllers can all do that with one SSD.

      $/GB is crap, $/IOPS is amazing.

    3. Re:Little Flawed study. by itzdandy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You missed half the point. SSD use wear leveling and other techniques that are very effective on the desktop but in a high IO environment, the current wear leveling techniques reduce SSD performance to well below what you get on the desktop.

      I really think that this is just a result of the current trend to put high performance SSD on the desktop. When the market re-focuses these problems will disolve.

      This also goes for RAID controllers. If you have 8 ports and SAS 3Gb links, then you need to process 24Gb and a IO/s of current 15k SAS drives. Lets just assume for easy math that this requires a 500Mhz RAID Processor. What would be the point of putting in a 2Ghz Processor? What if you increase the IO/s by 100x and double the bandwidth? now you need to handle 48Gb/s throughput and 100x the IO and that requires 2x 3Ghz Processors.

      Its just takes time for the market players to react to each technology increase. New raid controllers will come out that can handle these things. maybe the current raid cpus have been using a commodity chip (powerpc often enough) because it was fast enough to handle these things and the new technologies are going to require more specific processors. Maybe you need to get cell chips or nvidia GPUs in there, whatever it takes.

      I admit it would be pretty interesting to see the new Dell/LSI 100Gb SAS powered by Nvidia logo in Gen12 Dell servers.

    4. Re:Little Flawed study. by sirsnork · · Score: 3, Informative
      He may have half missed the point, but so did you.

      I clicked on this thinking this guy has done some testing... somewhere. Nope, nothing, no mention of benchmarks or what hardware he used. I'm sure some of he said is true. But I'd really like to see the data that he gets the

      I have seen almost 4 to 1. That means that the write performance might drop to 60 MB/sec and the wear leveling could take 240 MB/sec.

      from. I'd also really like to know what controllers he's tested with, wheather or not they have TRIM support (perhaps none do yet), what drives he used, if he had a BBU and write-back enabled etc etc etc.

      Until he give us the sources and the facts this is nothing but a FUD piece. Yes, wear levelling will eat up some bandwidth, thats hardly news... show us the data about how much and which drives are best

      --

      Normal people worry me!
  2. Correction: by raving+griff · · Score: 5, Informative

    Wear Leveling, RAID Can Wipe Out SSD Advantage for enterprise.

    While it may not be efficient to slap together a platter of 16 SSDs, it is worthwhile to upgrade personal computers to use an SSD.

    1. Re:Correction: by causality · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No one ever said otherwise.

      I see this rather often on Slashdot and elsewhere. It's becoming a part of our collective culture it seems.

      Increasingly, it's not good enough that you said what you did say, and chose not to say what you clearly haven't said. There's this unspoken expectation that you also have to actively disclaim things you clearly are not claiming, otherwise some clever individual who really wants to be "right" is going to assume that your lack of a disclaimer amounts to tacit support of whatever was not disclaimed. This leads to a great deal of both intentional trolling and unintentional creation of strawmen. Both invite unnecessary follow-up posts designed to correct unfounded assumptions.

      I wonder if this comes from modern politics where the audience is generally "hostile" in the sense that it's eager to twist words and demagogue positions with which it may disagree. That's a poor substitute for good reasoning, for showing that there are substantive reasons to disagree. So much of politics is done by handling complex, nuanced issues with 20-second soundbites that I can see how it happens there. On Slashdot, it seems to lower the quality of discussion for no good reason.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
  3. Re:Duh by Anarke_Incarnate · · Score: 3, Informative

    or Independent, according to another fully acceptable version of the acronym.

  4. Seek time by 1s44c · · Score: 4, Informative

    The real advantage of solid state storage is seek time, not read/write times. They don't beat conventional drives by much at sustained IO. Maybe this will change in the future. RAID just isn't meant for SSD devices. RAID is a fix for the unreliable nature of magnetic disks.

    1. Re:Seek time by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 3, Informative

      That hasn't been the case for at least a year now. A lot of SSDs will do much better with sustained read AND write speeds than traditional HDs (the best of which top out at around 100MB/sec). SSDs are reading at well over 250MB/sec and some are writing at 150-200MB/sec. And this is all based on the last time I checked, which was 5 or 6 months ago.

    2. Re:Seek time by Rockoon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It seems that a lot of people are taking the price of the cheapest/GB HD's, but using the performance of the most expensive/GB HD's, in order to form their conclusions about how little they get for so much extra money.

      One of the fastest platters on the market today is the Seagate 15,000 RPM Cheetah and that one runs at about $1/GB. Some of the 15K drives go for $3/GB.

      SSD's are running about $3/GB across the board at the top end, a cost not dissimilar from the top end platters, but they perform much better.

      I understand that many people dont want to drop more than $120 on a drive, but many of the vocal ones are letting their unwillingness to do so contaminate their criticism. SSD's are actually priced competitively vs the top performing platter drives.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
  5. This study seems deeply confused in a specific way by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This study seems to have a very bad case of "unconsciously idealizing the status quo and working from there". For instance:

    "Even the highest-performance RAID controllers today cannot support the IOPS of just three of the fastest SSDs. I am not talking about a disk tray; I am talking about the whole RAID controller. If you want full performance of expensive SSDs, you need to take your $50,000 or $100,000 RAID controller and not overpopulate it with too many drives. In fact, most vendors today have between 16 and 60 drives in a disk tray and you cannot even populate a whole tray. Add to this that some RAID vendor's disk trays are only designed for the performance of disk drives and you might find that you need a disk tray per SSD drive at a huge cost."

    That sounds pretty dire. And, it does in fact mean that SSDs won't be neat drop-in replacements for some legacy infrastructures. However, step back for a minute: Why did traditional systems have 50k or 100k RAID controllers connected to large numbers of HDDs? Mostly because the IOPs on an HDD, even a 15K RPM monster, sucked horribly. If 3 SSDs can swamp a RAID controller that could handle 60 drives, that is an overwhelmingly good thing. In fact, you might be able to ditch the pricey raid controller entirely, or move to a much smaller one, if 3 SDDs can do the work of 60HDDs.

    Now, for systems where bulk storage capacity is the point of the exercise, the ability to hang tray after tray full of disks off the RAID controller is necessary. However, that isn't the place where you would be buying expensive SSDs. Even the SSD vendors aren't even pretending that SSDs can cut it as capacity kings. For systems that are judged by their IOPS, though, the fact that the tradition involved hanging huge numbers (of often mostly empty, reading and writing only to the parts of the platter with the best access times) HDDs off extremely expensive RAID controllers shows that the past sucked, not that SSDs are bad.

    For the obligatory car analogy: shortly after the début of the automobile, manufacturers of horse-drawn carriages noted the fatal flaw of the new technology: "With a horse drawn carriage, a single buggy whip will server to keep you moving for months, even years with the right horses. If you try to power your car with buggy whips, though, you could end up burning several buggy whips per mile, at huge expense, just to keep the engine running..."

  6. In other news... by bflong · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... researchers have found that putting a Formula One engine into a Mack truck wipes out the advantages of the 19,000 rpm.

    --
    Why is it so hot? Where am I going? What am I doing in this handbasket?
  7. Re:This study seems deeply confused in a specific by volsung · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And we don't have to use Highlander Rules when considering drive technologies. There's no reason that one has to build a storage array right now out of purely SSD or purely HDD. Sun showed in some of their storage products that by combining a few SSDs with several slower, large capacity HDDs and ZFS, they could satisfy many workloads for a lot less money. (Pretty much the only thing a hybrid storage pool like that can't do is sustain very high IOPS of random reads across a huge pool of data with no read locality at all.)

    I hope we see more filesystems support transparent hybrid storage like this...

  8. ZFS sidesteps the whole RAID controller problem by haemish · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you use ZFS with SSDs, it scales very nicely. There isn't a bottleneck at a raid controller. You can slam a pile of controllers into a chassis if you have bandwidth problems because you've bought 100 SSDs - by having the RAID management outside the controller, ZFS can unify the whole lot in one giant high performance array.

    1. Re:ZFS sidesteps the whole RAID controller problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If you use ZFS with SSDs, it scales very nicely. There isn't a bottleneck at a raid controller. You can slam a pile of controllers into a chassis if you have bandwidth problems because you've bought 100 SSDs - by having the RAID management outside the controller, ZFS can unify the whole lot in one giant high performance array.

      If performance is that critical, you'd be foolish to use ZFS. Get a real high-performance file system. One that's also mature and can actually be recovered if it ever does fail catastrophically. (Yes, ZFS can fail catastrophically. Just Google "ZFS data loss"...)

      If you want to stay with Sun, use QFS. You can even use the same filesystems as an HSM, because SAMFS is really just QFS with tapes (don't use disk archives unless you've got more money than sense...).

      Or you can use IBM's GPFS.

      If you really want to see a fast and HUGE file system, use QFS or GPFS and put the metadata on SSDs and the contents on lots of big SATA drives. Yes, SATA. Because when you start getting into trays and trays full of disks attached to RAID controllers, arrays that consist of FC or SAS drives aren't much if any faster than arrays that consist of SATA drives. But the FC/SAS arrays ARE much smaller AND more expensive.

      Both QFS and GPFS beat the living snot out of ZFS on performance. And no, NOTHING free comes close. And nothing proprietary, either, although an uncrippled XFS on Irix might do it, if you could get real Irix running on up-to-date hardware. (Yes, the XFS in Linux is crippleware...)

  9. Re:Raid controllers obsolete? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative

    The advantage of hardware RAID, at least with RAID 5, is the battery backup. When you write a RAID stripe, you need to write the whole thing atomically. If the writes work on some drives and fail on others, you can't recover the stripe. The checksum will fail, and you'll know that the stripe is damaged, but you won't know what it should be. With a decent RAID controller, the entire write cache will be battery backed, so if the power goes out you just replay the stuff that's still in RAM when the array comes back online. With software RAID, you'd just lose the last few writes, (potentially) leaving your filesystem in an inconsistent state.

    This is not a problem with ZFS, because it handles transactions at a lower layer so you either complete a transaction or lose the transaction, the disk is never in an inconsistent state.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  10. Re:This study seems deeply confused in a specific by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My understanding is that pretty much all the serious storage appliance vendors are moving in that direction, at least in the internals of their devices. I suspect that pretty much anybody who isn't already a sun customer doesn't want to have to deal with ZFS directly; but that even the "You just connect to the iSCSI LUN, our magic box takes it from there" magic boxes are increasingly likely to have a mix of drive types inside.

    I'll be interested to see, actually, how well the traditional 15K RPM SCSI/SAS enterprise screamer style HDDs hold up in the future. For applications where IOPS are supreme, SSDs(and, in extreme cases, DRAM based devices) are rapidly making them obsolete in performance terms and price/performance terms are getting increasingly ugly for them. The costs of fabricating flash chips are continuing to fall, the costs of building mechanical devices that can handle what those drives can aren't as much. For applications where sheer size or cost/GB are supreme, the fact that you can put SATA drives on SAS controllers is super convenient. It allows you to build monstrous, and still pretty zippy for loads that are low on random read/write and high on sustained read or write(like backups and nearline storage), storage capacity for impressively small amounts of money.

    Is there a viable niche for the very high end HDDs, or will they be murdered from above by their solid state competitors, and from below by vast arrays of their cheap, cool running, and fairly low power, consumer derived SATA counterparts?

    Also, since no punning opportunity should be left unexploited, I'll note that most enterprise devices are designed to run headless without any issues at all, so Highlander rules cannot possibly apply.