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Algebra In Wonderland

theodp writes "As Tim Burton's 'Alice in Wonderland' shatters 3-D and IMAX records en route to a $116.3 million opening, the NY Times offers a rather cerebral op-ed arguing that Alice's search for a beautiful garden can be neatly interpreted as a mishmash of satire directed at the advances taking place in mid-19th century math. Charles Dodgson, who penned 'Alice' under the name Lewis Carroll, was a tutor in mathematics at Christ Church in Oxford who found the radical new math illogical and lacking in intellectual rigor. Op-ed writer Melanie Bayley explains: 'Chapter 6, "Pig and Pepper," parodies the principle of continuity, a bizarre concept from projective geometry, which was introduced in the mid-19th century from France. This principle (now an important aspect of modern topology) involves the idea that one shape can bend and stretch into another, provided it retains the same basic properties — a circle is the same as an ellipse or a parabola (the curve of the Cheshire cat's grin). Taking the notion to its extreme, what works for a circle should also work for a baby. So, when Alice takes the Duchess's baby outside, it turns into a pig. The Cheshire Cat says, "I thought it would."'"

39 of 184 comments (clear)

  1. Yeah Not Really by poopdeville · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sure, Dodgson was a mathematician and logician. But he was writing a mind bending kids story, not "satirizing" his trade.

    --
    After all, I am strangely colored.
    1. Re:Yeah Not Really by slim · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's pretty well established that the Alice books contained all kinds of references and allusions that would have gone straight over a child's head.

    2. Re:Yeah Not Really by zappepcs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you read xkcd, I'm sure you'll understand why it's possible to think allegorically about math. Theorems and proofs and magic!

    3. Re:Yeah Not Really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So do Saturday morning cartoons; hence the dual audience.

    4. Re:Yeah Not Really by Cabriel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Judging intent is a phenomenally difficult task. To say Charles Dodgson was satirizing his trade can only be speculative, and it's just as easy to speculate that he wasn't. If an author writes a modern-day story involving a corrupt god, is he satirizing religion or is it merely just a story device he decided to use because he's religious and familiar with the concepts deity and good/bad?

      Ultimately, and I think you know this already, authors write what they know about. Dodgson knew math, so is it really so odd to think he included mathematical concepts in his story because he thought it would be cool?

      (Yes, I read the full article, and I see a whole lot of room for uncertainty.)

    5. Re:Yeah Not Really by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 4, Funny

      How can math be unrigorous? Either something adds up, or it doesnt, or both.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    6. Re:Yeah Not Really by toastar · · Score: 2, Funny

      I always thought Alice was more about pedophilia then mathematics.

    7. Re:Yeah Not Really by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 2, Informative

      As it is, the article was substantially more convincing. Had you included references to his other works such as

      Moreover, Dodgson was a rather exceptional student of Aristotelian logic, and he delighted his friends with games, puzzles and riddles. Dodgson's mock-heroic poem, The Hunting of the Snark (1876), ending with the line "For the Snark was a Bojuum, you see", received mixed reviews when it appeared. The meaning of the poem, which tells of the journey to capture the mythical Snark, has puzzled generations of readers. "I'm very much afraid I didn't mean anything but nonsense!" Dodgson later said.

      along with a verifiable reference like: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/lcarroll.htm

      your comment might have had a little more sway.

      Also, if you accounted for your method of understanding the intentions of someone who is now deceased, and has been for a while, we might have been able to independently confirm your theory, or properly and with all authority label you a quack.

      All that remains is for you to post a picture of yourself so that we may properly ridicule you, since you have left us nothing else by which to counter your theory.

    8. Re:Yeah Not Really by node+3 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Judging intent is a phenomenally difficult task.

      Sort of. If you look at it in an absolutist, objective sense, then yes. If you look at it in a subjective, probability sense, it's not that difficult at all. In fact, most people successfully do this many times a day.

      To say Charles Dodgson was satirizing his trade can only be speculative

      Of course. But that's true of anything done by anyone. Even if they tell you to your face exactly what their intentions are, you can only ever speculate if they are telling the truth. At the end of the day, it always comes down to speculation.

      and it's just as easy to speculate that he wasn't.

      This is the part you get exactly wrong. It's *not* just as easy, because given that he was a mathematician, and that the two Alice books abound with satire, it's difficult to believe that he wasn't satirizing mathematics when his books have so many examples of such.

      Ultimately, and I think you know this already, authors write what they know about. Dodgson knew math, so is it really so odd to think he included mathematical concepts in his story because he thought it would be cool?

      Here's a simple litmus test. Does the math seem bolted-on? Or does it integrate with the work as a whole? If it feels bolted-on, then perhaps it's just something he thought would be cool. If it fits the work as a whole, then it's most likely meant to be taken in the same way the rest of the work is, which is very much to be satire.

      Like you said, though, you can never be absolutely certain, but you can be certain enough to make a personal judgement.

    9. Re:Yeah Not Really by Ricwot · · Score: 2, Informative

      Odd that this is marked as a troll when a widely held belief is that Lewis Carol wrote it about a small girl of his acquaintance with whom he was reputedly on intimate terms.

    10. Re:Yeah Not Really by Capsaicin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While the phrasing may not have been the best, I don't know that it's necessarily a troll to mention pedophilia wrt Lewis Carroll.

      You don't know? OK, let me help you out there, it is.

      He *did* spend a lot of time around young children ...

      What proportion of his time was that?

      one of his hobbies was photography, his favorite subject young children.

      Quick! Let's run out and lynch Anne Geddes! (Well that might not be such a bad idea ;)

      And he named the main character of and dedicated "Alice" to a certain young girl he spent an excessive amount of time with.

      Quick, let's run out and lynch all children's books writers especially those who spend more than a hour with a child.

      There are a *lot* of "but that doesn't *mean* he's a pedophile" examples you can pull from Charles Dodgson's life.

      He was a mathematician. "But that doesn't *mean* he's a pedophile" Oh look you're right.

      Enough that the possibility is certainly up there.

      It's just as possible that you are, surely?

      Though you can't necessarily prove anything

      Yeah that would be because of the complete lack of evidence.

      There is not the least suggestion not the merest whiff of any impropriety. To level an accusation like that is a troll at best.

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    11. Re:Yeah Not Really by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And is their similar symbolism in "The Hunting of the Snark"? I am thinking specifically of the poem "Jabberwocky".....

      Travelling knot theorem in text. If you take a piece of string, connect it to a piece of fishing line, connect that to a piece of rope, then make an overhand knot in the string and work the knot along until it reaches the rope, what, then is a "knot"?

      Es Brillig war. Die schlichte Toven warten und wibbleten in Waben. Alle mumsige war die Borgegoven, und die Momeraths ausgraben.

      Travelling knot becomes travelling meme.

      There is a mathematical structure to the common meme, too. Think about it.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    12. Re:Yeah Not Really by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 2, Funny

      Also, if you accounted for your method of understanding the intentions of someone who is now deceased, and has been for a while, we might have been able to independently confirm your theory, or properly and with all authority label you a quack.

      Yes, but don't you see? Ducks have everything to do with it!

      Hit any key to continue.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    13. Re:Yeah Not Really by fractoid · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't speak enough languages to do more than guess at half of your post, but for what it's worth, I found it interesting. :P

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      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    14. Re:Yeah Not Really by SirWinston · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It certainly is NOT a troll to mention paedophilia with regard to Lewis Carroll. There's a subsection about his purported paedophilia in his Wikipedia entry:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Carroll#Suggestions_of_paedophilia

      Moreover, most of his 20th century biographers have at least hinted at the possibility, and many discussed it outright--any biography of the man would be sorely incomplete without mentioning that the theory of Carroll as repressed paedophile permeated much 20th century analysis of the man and his work. The fact that one of his major hobbies was photographing nude female children (including Alice Liddell), and another was spending hours regaling female children with stories, together with his complete lack of a known sexual or romantic life with any adults, an unexplained sudden break with Alice Liddell's family for reasons unknown, and the destruction of some of his photos and papers, certainly all play into that notion.

      That isn't to say that it's true, and recent scholarship vigorously debates the claim that Carroll was a paedophile. However, it's safe to say that the traditional scholarly conception of Lewis Carroll is as a celibate paedophile, while newer scholarship challenges this older presumption. For example, his photography of nude girl children and extensive time spent in their company can be explained by odd Victorian cultural fascinations that aren't necessarily sexual--the innocence of childhood and nudity as an expression of innocence (before the Biblical fall) were common Victorian memes which often came together. The missing papers are still missing and could have confirmed or refuted paedophilia as a factor in the break with Alice's family, but a document penned by his family found in 1996 suggests they removed or destroyed the papers because their content suggested an affair with a governess or adult member of the Liddell family. Unless they're found, we'll never know for sure whether Carroll was romantically interested in adult Liddell women or 11-year-old Alice; scholars will continue to debate, and the theory that Carroll was a paedophile will remain viable (although I think it's safe to say that scholarship since the 1996 discovery is largely contrarian toward the traditional "paedophile camp").

      --
      "It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word."--Andrew Jackson
    15. Re:Yeah Not Really by Capsaicin · · Score: 3, Informative

      It certainly is NOT a troll to mention paedophilia with regard to Lewis Carroll.

      I won't pretend to expertise as regards the jurisprudence appropriate to trolls. However, I doubt that notion of prior art constitutes a defence here. ;)

      The fact that ... all play into that notion. That isn't to say it's true.

      IAAL and where I'm from, before we accuse people of serious wrongdoing such as sexually interfering with children, we make sure we have the EVIDENCE to back up such a charge. Moreover we would hope such evidence is more than merely circumstantial.

      [A]ny biography of the man would be sorely incomplete without mentioning that the theory of Carroll as repressed paedophile permeated much 20th century analysis of the man and his work.

      Nonsense. A biography of the man could simply rely on documented events in his life. You can leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions. Now if you were to write "any historical review of Carroll scholarship would be sorely incomplete ...," I could not disagree. Let me remind you, however, that the original statement you are defending as not-a-troll was something to the effect that Alice in Wonderland is not a book about maths, but a book about paedophilia.

      the traditional scholarly conception of Lewis Carroll is as a celibate paedophile

      Again where I come from I would like an act as well as the intent to commit act before I condemn someone.

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    16. Re:Yeah Not Really by johnnysaucepn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      IAAL and where I'm from, before we accuse people of serious wrongdoing such as sexually interfering with children, we make sure we have the EVIDENCE to back up such a charge. Moreover we would hope such evidence is more than merely circumstantial.

      Paedophilia is an attraction to children, it doesn't necessarily imply any actual physical acts, or any criminal behaviour. Safest to keep this one in proportion.

  2. you're kidding by pbjones · · Score: 3, Funny

    sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

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    There was an unknown error in the submission.
    1. Re:you're kidding by Vintermann · · Score: 4, Funny

      And sometimes a caterpillar sitting on a giant mushroom smoking a hookah is just a caterpillar sitting on a giant mushroom smoking a hookah.

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      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
  3. A baby is not a sphere by slim · · Score: 4, Funny

    Surely a mammal is a torus.

    1. Re:A baby is not a sphere by maxume · · Score: 3, Funny

      It all hinges on the topological properties of a sphincter.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:A baby is not a sphere by digitig · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In Linderholm's "Mathematics made difficult" he speculated that there were two sorts of people, loud and quiet ones. Loud ones keep their mouths and anuses open and are isomorphic to tori (genus 2 because of the nose, but I think Linderholm missed that), whereas quiet people keep them shut and are isomorphic to spheres.

      --
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  4. Uh huh by davidbrit2 · · Score: 2, Funny

    It was my understanding that there would be no math.

  5. All of the above and Cowboy Neal by sammyF70 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The nice (frustrating) thing about both Alice stories is that they can stand for pretty much everything. From the obvious ( one pill makes you larger ... dumdidum) to the less obvious ( Alice is supposed to be Queen Victoria?). Unless you can ask Dodgson directly, my guess is that it's just a tale he concocted on the fly, using whatever was on his mind at the time (so, yeah, probably mathematics, queen Victoria and possibly perspective-stretching mushrooms).

    --
    "DRM is like the Ford Pinto: it's a smooth ride, right up the point at which it explodes and ruins your day."-C.Doctorow
  6. Not sure about the specifics by lennier · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The weirdness of logic and maths certainly is a large part of Alice, though I doubt it's all of it. But it's fairly obvious to me, just as a geek with a bit of general knowledge, that the Alice books parody a number of things from late-Victorian era politics and education. It's also about puns, wordplay, and the strict application of logic beyond the domains where it applies; and just general nerdy amusement.

    * The organising principle of 'Wonderland' is the card game
    * The 'Caucus-race' obviously a satire on politics: the members run in a circle, accomplishing nothing except a lot of hot air. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caucus_race

    I couldn't speak for certain about whether the Mad Hatter's party and the stuckness of Time really is a reference to Hamilton's quaternions, but quaternions are fascinating and they did introduce the idea of a 4D space-time continuum (and therefore time travel) half a century before Einstein/Minkowski, and scandalised and baffled the maths world, so it wouldn't surprise me if that was in the background.

    * The organising principle of 'Looking Glass' is the chess game
    * Anglo-Saxon literature (possibly Beowulf?) appears in Looking Glass - 'Jabberwocky' is a parody of the Beowulfian sort of epic, with the hero slaying the monster and lots of untranslated words
    * The March Hare and Mad Hatter reappear as 'Anglo-Saxons' Haigha and Hatta. Again, this is the sort of stuff that educated children would have been expected to know as a matter of course, along with Latin and Greek and art ('Laughing and Grief; reeling, writhing and fainting in coils')

    * The White Knight's speech ('the name of the song is called...') parses out the fine but very important distinction between objects and names, which becomes a major issue in logic (and more so in computer programming):

    The name of the song is called 'Haddocks' Eyes.'"

    "Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested.

    "No, you don't understand," the Knight said, looking a little vexed. "That's what the name
    is called. The name really is 'The Aged, Aged Man.'"

    "Then I ought to have said 'That's what the song is called'?" Alice corrected herself.

    "No you oughtn't: that's another thing. The song is called 'Ways and Means' but that's only
    what it's called, you know!"

    "Well, what is the song then?" said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.

    "I was coming to that," the Knight said. "The song really is 'A-sitting On a Gate': and the
    tune's my own invention."

    Like Terry Pratchett (and Bram Stoker - see Dracula Blogged), Alice really needs a decent annotated edition to explain the obvious cultural and scientific references, since it is densely packed with references which might now be misunderstood, and so many weird conspiracy theories have arisen around the books.

    The classic example of Dodgson's geeky humour is from 'Four Riddles':

    http://www.online-literature.com/carroll/2826/

    Yet what are all such gaieties to me
    Whose thoughts are full of indices and surds?

    x*x + 7x + 53 = 11/3

    It doesn't just rhyme and form part of an overall story - it's an equation to be solved, which gives you a word, from which you can take the first and last letters and which give you a crossword/acrostic clue. Beat THAT for geek cred.

    --
    You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    1. Re:Not sure about the specifics by TimHunter · · Score: 2, Informative

      Alice really needs a decent annotated edition to explain the obvious cultural and scientific references

      I searched in vain for a reference to The Annotated Alice in your post but didn't find one. Pardon me if I just overlooked it. Anyway, here's a link: http://www.amazon.com/Annotated-Alice-Definitive-Lewis-Carroll/dp/0393048470/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267996987&sr=8-1

    2. Re:Not sure about the specifics by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 4, Informative
  7. Re:-1, Don't Care? by __aasqbs9791 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's in 3D, which much like "...on a computer" and patents, completely changes everything. And yes, I'm planning on seeing it tomorrow with my wife, ;^P

  8. Re:a mammal is a torus by Stumbles · · Score: 2, Funny

    Just call it; talking out your ass and you'll be fine.

    --
    My karma is not a Chameleon.
  9. Re:a mammal is a torus by EdIII · · Score: 4, Funny

    people have 4 entry and exit points

    I am sure there is some German porn on the Internet that refutes that statement.

  10. If you had read the cliff notes thirty years ago by ClosedSource · · Score: 4, Informative

    you'd already know that "Alice" was a satire.

  11. Full Version by Tirhakah · · Score: 5, Informative

    For those interested, the full version of this article originally comes from the New Scientist, just before Christmas. The NYTimes version is shortened and split onto two pages.
    Just sayin'

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427391.600-alices-adventures-in-algebra-wonderland-solved.html?full=true

  12. Re:right idea, wrong details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    In projective space a "parabola" has a point at infinity and thus is homeomorphic to a circle.

  13. The scariest part about it is ... by D4C5CE · · Score: 4, Funny
  14. Re:-1, Don't Care? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Alice in Wonderland is one of the few books that you can make a billion movies of and still manage to show a different angle of. The book gives you the material to tell pretty much anything, from a Disney-esque fairy tale with fluffy animals and a song every other minute to a gothic-horror splatter movie that makes you lift your feet every other minute to let the blood flood past.

    I'm fairly sure that it's also the book that has been reviewed and discussed in more different classes and subjects than any other book. It contains material for sociology, politics, psychology and as we can see now, math. And I'm fairly sure a few more that I can't think of right now. It has a lot of angles you can look at it.

    Yes, it's yet another Alice movie. And I'm quite sure it's different from any that have been made so far.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  15. Re:a mammal is a torus by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's not about "orificies". It's about "holes". Topology is a little bit strange to wrap one's head around.

    Example: a typical coffee cup. It has one hole: the handle. The part where the coffee goes is an orifice, but it is not a hole. So a coffee cup is a 1-torus. (Called a "torus" because if you stretched the coffee cup around, like rubber or clay, you can get a torus-shape. Topologically they are the same.)

    So, the mouth and anus constitute opposite sides of one "hole", that goes all the way through a human being. If you straighted out the hole, and squashed the human down, you can get something like a torus.

    Except that there are more holes. Do some more stretching, and the nostrils become two more holes, just like the first one. The idea is that you can stretch and squash and move stuff around, but you can't open or close any holes. So stretch out the tear ducts and you get two more holes, for a total of 5.

    So, take a piece of modeling clay and flatten it out to a big pancake. Then take a cookie cutter or some such and cut 5 holes in it. Topologically, that's what a human being looks like.

    To answer some others: I don't know if all mammals have tear ducts. I know that cats and dogs do.

  16. Re:You mean P2P isn't killing cinema?? by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 2, Funny

    Correction: Pocahontas and Avatar were both animated. Kevin Costner is anything but animated.

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  17. TBH, I'm not sure about satirizing by Moraelin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    TBH, having read both Alice novels and The Hunting Of The Snark, I'm not sure that it's _all_ satirizing. There are some pretty important concepts illustrated in some places. In a humorous way, sure. But I don't think the concept itself is being satirized most of the time.

    E.g., the Walrus and the Carpenter part of Through The Looking Glass illustrates the problems inherent in deciding something rashly based on incomplete data, and without exploring it any further. Alice flip-flops between liking the walrus or the carpenter more, as new information is provided. And eventually comes to the realization that _both_ are repulsive characters, regardless of which one of them may be slightly less so. That's a lesson which is still lost even on many adults who seem to think that when taking sides between two parties, they must go all the way and make one the knight in shiny armour if that's the side they chose. (Heck, fanboy wars or armchair political debates are a prime example of that in action.)

    Is the concept of deciding badly based on incomplete data satirized there, or is it just illustrated in a humorous way?

    In a sense, see my sig below this message. Sure, it's intended to be a funny way to go about it (though if it's actually funny to anyone else, that's another question), and I particularly like the utter nerdiness of it. But by spreading that quote, I'm _not_ satirizing the concept of polar coordinates. I don't find anything silly or invalid about them, and have used them before. The joke is merely in the equivocation fallacy around "polar", nothing else.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  18. It was to amuse little children by Kupfernigk · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I'm sorry, but you are quite wrong. And there is point to arguing about it, because Dodgson is an important enough Victorian that it is worth trying to understand his world. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary in Dodgson's own writings, including his essays attacking the Victorian practice of treating children as small adults. The publication history of Alice shows Dodgson's enormous attention to detail to make it the finest possible book for children.

    Dodgson also carefully distinguished his writings on mathematics and his children's books, hence the assumed name. After meeting Queen Victoria, and mistakenly assuming he was being honoured for his work in mathematics, he sent her a copy of his next book - "A treatise on Fluxions" - which must have baffled the Palace. It is very clear indeed that he did not regard the Alice books as aimed at adults.

    The fact that he joked about things the Victorians took seriously - including taking the piss out of "moral" writing for children - was because he wanted to protect them from being treated as moral adults. But he was writing for children - so the idea was that they would see the funny side of the stuff adults were trying to impose on them. When he wanted to do that kind of thing for adults he wrote a serious essay or a sermon. As part of the Victorian Establishment, he knew how careful he had to be in employing ridicule.

    --
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