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Good Language Choice For School Programming Test?
An anonymous reader writes "The Australian Informatics Olympiad programming test is being run in a couple of months. I'm an experienced programmer and I'm thinking of volunteering to tutor interested kids at my children's school to get them ready. There will be children of all levels in the group, from those that can't write 'hello world' in any language, to somewhat experienced programmers. For those starting from scratch, I'm wondering what language to teach them to code in. Accepted languages are C, C++, Pascal, Java, PHP, Python and Visual Basic. I'm leaning towards Python, because it is a powerful language with a simple syntax. However, the test has a run-time CPU seconds limit, so using an interpreted language like Python could put the students at a disadvantage compared to using C. Is it better to teach them something in 2 months that they're likely to be able to code in but possibly run foul of the CPU time limit, or struggle to teach them to code in a more complicated syntax like C/C++ which would however give them the best chance of having a fast solution?"
You don't want a test that favors kids who have studied that particular language in the past. I suggest the Turing-complete language LaTeX. It's the only way to be sure.
OK C could be a computationally fast solution, but I'd go for Python anyway. Why? Mainly this: How many new C programmers (i.e. less than 1 or 2 years experience) can write programs without obscure memory leak/access problems? How much time have slashdotters wasted looking for elusive segfaults in C code? I know I've wasted hours, days, chasing buffer overruns in school assignments. Or worse are the ones you don't see; they only trigger on the examiner's machine..
English, Vulcan, or whatever the local human language is. Or just give everyone a translation device.
Oh, you mean the language for the programs. My bad, I thought you meant for the instructions and problem description, sorry.
But seriously....
Your first line is to see what eligible language the students mostly know already or what is taught in that school or school system and go with it.
Barring that, go with whatever is commonly used in most university college freshman programming classes. It may not give them the best chance to win but learning it will have practical value.
If you know the types of problems they will give, everything else being equal go with the language that is best suited for the problem type.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I'm guessing that the CPU limits are generous and are more about filtering out bad algorithms than bad languages.
For example, someone using stooge sort instead of quicksort...
While the language used would increase the budget, the algorithms used will very quickly swamp any language gains.
When I did programming contests, they were more bound on thought (how quickly you can come up with an algorithm) and then implementation time. Rarely did compute time come into it.
For Python, can they use: Psyco as a library? That would help being practically a Just In Time compiler. It's x86 architectures only but that should be what they're running. As a side point I find it irritating that a language that is designed to be friendly and powerful is disadvantaged by counting CPU cycles: especially since in the real world those are plentiful compared to the scarce resources available for the hard work of debugging. And in Python if the CPU is your constraint - which it isn't in most programs - then you write that little bit of CPU code in C or C++ and call that one part from Python. This keeps the rest of the program easy to debug and portable.
Shh.
Having competed in a handful of collegiate programming contests about 10 years ago, the CPU time limit was never even a passing concern. Granted, we were coding in C++, but even in Python, any solution that hits the CPU limit on these contests is quite likely an unnecessarily complex algorithm. I always considered the CPU limit to be a safeguard against programs with infinite loops or REALLY slow solutions, so that the teams wouldn't claim "no, really, it works!" and drag the contest on for hours insisting that the right answer will reveal itself shortly. If your solution works, but has complexity of O(n!), I'd have a hard time calling it acceptable.
If one of our entries was rejected due to exceeding the CPU limit, it was always due to a problem in our logic that the sample data hadn't triggered, but that the actual test data had.
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I would go with Pascal. And if not, Java.
Pascal has a is very simple and clear syntax and semantics. It has strong and static typing, making many errors very easy to catch at compile time. The case for Java is similar but the syntax and semantics are a bit more complicated.
C is terrible to teach, they'll have to deal with pointers all the time. Reading something from input? Pointers. Passing by reference? Pointers. Strings? Pointers. Sure you may omit that those are pointers but the segmentation faults will show up for regular reality checks. Same for C++. Python means working with dynamic typing. PHP dynamic and weak typing. Don't get me started on Visual Basic.
Unless these kids already have a programming proficiency, go with your gut.
The exercise is as much about allowing them to test the programming waters as it is about them winning. If you are starting with a blank slate, that means you need to create an environment that is intriguing. If YOU think Python is the thing, you'll be passionate ... and that is a lot of what makes a good coach/tutor in an olympiad.
Further, I think you could do a lot worse than Python. It is really a great language and is popping up in a lot of disciplines as the scripting tool of choice. It will perform well and has great characteristics that make it well suited for someone learning the ropes. Plus, the language is modern enough to be relevant should they desire to pursue IT further.
I would stay away from C/C++. In the hands of novices in a timed activity, I would wager it would be more trouble than it's worth.
The little guy just ain't getting it, is he?
I think you should pick something that would be the easiest for them to learn. Python is probably the best choice out of those languages (I'm not a Python programer and my exposure to Python has been limited - though I do code in C/C++, PHP & VB and I've coded and taught Java & PASCAL).
You can't really worry about the runtime limit since it should be rather liberal for a student's competition and you'll never know what the system's config will be (so Python may be fast or slow).
If you're going to be teaching new programmers, get them started on something they can use and something they can expand upon. Of the languages available to you I would say Python is the best choice.
Any CPU limits should be generous enough to accommodate correct solutions in any of the permissible languages.
It's the whole "4 out of 5 doctors ..." scenario. Any kid who picks Java will be taken away to be deprogrammed and then reintroduced to programming society once they're ready to be released into the wild.
...
Born free, free as the wind blows
C, C++ and Java are not an option. They all need years to master and have numerous non-obvious pitfalls. Pascal is pretty limitad and definitly a historic design. PHP is obscure in palaces. Visual Basic still is a bad joke, confined to just one platform and wioth numerous design problems.
On the other hand Python is fine, with the only thing to master the indention. Not on the list, but Ruby would also be nice. And for a minimalistic, yet powerful language, loot at (again not on the list) Lua.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Explain the situation to your students; give them the options available with pros and cons for each; and let them decide for themselves.
But then he must add a module for maintaining neckbeard
I spend most of my time in bed, darling.
I tried teaching my self some Python a while back and found it very easy. The only experience that I had before in any computer language is MEL (Maya Embedded Language). I bought a book called Game Programming (Publiser: Wiley, ISBN 978-0-470-06822-9) and over my two week Christmas break I was able to build a nice little top down shooter with programmer graphics.
It uses the pyGame library for most of the heavy hitting (like writing to the screen and the like) but it also introduced me to Objects and Classes as well as how to think in small steps to help break down what I was trying to do.
I always suggest this book to artists that I meet who wants to get into scripting. And most of them who have borrowed it end up buying it for themselves when thay have to give back my book.
When I first read the list I thought "Pascal". The reasons are that it's a structured language, it is very easy to use and it's able to teach extremely useful concepts like linked lists, recursive algo's etc.
However... It's nigh on useless these days to have "Pascal" on your CV (I'm sure both the Pascal developers out there will disagree - Yes I'm looking at you Delphi devs...)
I did C, Pascal and COBOL at UNI and since then I have spent some 15 years writing VB (3->.Net), C, C++, C# etc. In the last 2 years I have been working mostly with Java. And I hate it. It's slow, memory hungry, it's tools are Sh*t (Matisse's creators are on drugs).
That being said, pick up your local paper (or go to Seek - also bleh) and look at the proportion of jobs advertised these days that require Java. It's quite significant. That's the sort of thing that you should be looking at when making your decision. Sure, you'll find a few that require any of your listed languages. And sure, when these kids have finished UNI and want to work in IT (poor bastards) Java will be dead and buried, but there'll be a million and one "Legacy" systems lying around that use Java.
Oh and teach them some database skills. The local UNI here puts out graduates that don't know anything but Cross joins and have no idea what a left join is...
dnuof eruc rof aixelsid
Probably because there would already by a module that solves the problem.
The contest has a cpu time limit which seems to be reasonnable for a programming contest.
Brainfuck.
You can't really worry about the runtime limit since it should be rather liberal for a student's competition...
As the summary says "Accepted languages" (presumably the competition rules), I would tend to agree. They're not going to ask your students to complete something that those languages cannot reasonably accomplish. Bad C++ code will be slower than halfway-decent Python code. Teach a good foundation, and let the chips fall where they may.
(And I too vote Python, by the way.)
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
Perl is very simple to learn (check out "Robert's Perl Tutorial"). Perl allows the programmer to do what he wants - regardless of the style. There's even English.pm. Perl has many upsides ie: it's a powerful parser and indispensable toolkit... and highly embeddable. If there was ever a seed language to learn, it's Perl.
There's also the fact that Perl programmers are real unix men - and let's face it, you'd rather have real unix graduates than Ruby fannies?
On the plus side, you could make a really spiffy "Hello World".
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
I assume you want something that'll give the kids an advantage in the competition, and be useful if they want to start programming seriously.
Pascal - it was nice back when Reagan was in the White House and Michael Jackson still had his nose, but it's obsolete.
PHP is for writing dynamic web pages. It's good at what it does, but it isn't really a general-purpose language.
C and C++ are faster than interpreted languages. That is, sometimes they're slightly faster. And they're almost always harder to write in.
VB? Go fuck yourself.
So that leaves Java and Python.
For relatively simple programs (like a school programming test or competition entry), you can compile the C in under a second. Pascal has almost no commercial use these days and is not going to be a good thing to teach them from a skills perspective.
That said - python would be a good choice, IMHO
I'm sure the CPU time limit would be generous enough that it won't matter if your programming language is interpreted 10x slower than hand-tuned assembly. They want to make sure you aren't using a brute-force O(n^3) algorithm when a linear one would work well enough.
Plus, the judges need a rule to allow them to terminate programs that may be stuck in infinite loops. Otherwise, a contestant could delay the results of a competition indefinitely.
(Imagine: "This competition was rigged! The judges killed my program before it had a chance to finish. It was working fine, and I was the first one to submit answers to all the problems. What? So it has a long start up time. You don't have a rule against 100-hour programs.")
In college I wasted SO much time debugging C/C++ code memory errors. Python was such a breath of fresh air. I could think of something with a mildly complex structure, implement it, and have it work pretty much on the first go.
I've spent days, DAYS debugging weird stack memory limitations in C++, where it would work right on a small data sample, but completely fail on a slightly larger set.
I used psyco on my Master's thesis to greatly speed up my python simulation (10-100x with a simple import statement). Unfortunately it only works on 32-bit ix86. Supposedly other projects like pypy are supposed to reintroduce that kind of optimization to modern python, but I finished my thesis :P It's easy enough to link to C/C++ code for parts that really have to run fast though.
So yeah, start them off with python. And maybe teach the advanced students how to link to C/C++ modules for performance-critical functions.
We can sort of classify the languages into "slow" and "not slow" in various ways.
This should come as no surprise. Pascal was intended as a teaching language. None of the other languages was designed for teaching, unless you somehow equate Visual Basic with BASIC.
The second choice is probably C, but you'll have some issues teaching about declarations/definitions (inside out) and string-related stuff. The meaning of '=' is also not compatible with normal math notation.
The third choice is probably Java. You get most of the trouble of C, less speed, and greater need for boilerplate sourcecode bloat.
As the summary says "Accepted languages" (presumably the competition rules), I would tend to agree. They're not going to ask your students to complete something that those languages cannot reasonably accomplish. Bad C++ code will be slower than halfway-decent Python code. Teach a good foundation, and let the chips fall where they may.
Agreed. I've done a couple of these programming competitions in my youth (heh :P ) and in my experience, the runtime limit is in place to force you to use a more efficient algorithm, not to force you to streamline your brute force approach. So there might be a problem that would take an hour to solve using brute force, or a couple of seconds using dynamic programming, for instance - choice of language isn't going to affect the performance appreciably compared to choice of algorithm.
For what it's worth, I too say Python. It's easy to learn, flexible, and executes fast enough.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
LOLCODE would be easiest to learn for the cellphone-texting rugrats of today.
Example of Hello World program:
HAI
CAN HAS STDIO?
VISIBLE "HAI WORLD!"
KTHXBYE
Teach the kids Scheme! Seriously, it's a better transition from pure math to programming. (http://www.teach-scheme.org/)
The difference between C++ and Python isn't simply that C++ has a more complicated syntax.
In C++, the kids will have to wrestle with the static type system and the lack of automated memory management. (Problems that can be partially overcome with a lot of "greenspunning" that requires significant C++ experience).
The number one factor in performance is the choice of algorithms. A Python program with good algorithms will beat a C++ program which uses poor algorithms, or which does stupid things like copy aggregate objects in order to avoid memory management difficulties.
It's sad that the list of languages includes only immature dynamic languages du jour like Python and excludes mature dynamic languages that have good compilers. Bad education!
C shouldn't even be on the list, neither should Pascal.
C++ is my favorite language but there's no way you can learn it in that time scale.
VB is almost obsolete and too much tied into to MS APIs.
That really only leaves Python or PHP.
Python is cute but it's not really very good for writing software that has to be published/deployed.
I'd go with PHP because it's much more useful for getting jobs, etc., after the competition.
No sig today...
I've participated in local and regional Informatics Olympiads, and went to the IOI once. I was involved in training local students a few years ago, so I know quite a bit of the ins and outs of these competitions.
All the languages have pros and cons, but PHP and VB obviously aren't suitable (if only for their encouragement of crappy coding practices). Java offers little advantage over C/C++, and it forces OOP onto you so it adds an unnecessary layer of complexity for the students.
The "industry standard" of competitive programming is C++, since it offers near-C speed with the power of various algorithms (eg. sort) and data structures ( maps, sets, priority queues ). Those who intend to take the competition seriously should be using C++ as their primary language. But then judging from your requirements the vast majority of your students won't fall into this category, so I wouldn't recommend C++, at least not at this stage.
Python generally is a good first language for its simplicity and power. There are a few problems with using python for competitive programming though. First, speed can become a problem for *some* contests, which have rather tight runtime constraints. The contests that cater for a wide range of languages are usually better in this respect, but a lot out there are primarily C/C++/Pascal/Java. Secondly, the fact that python supports a range of built in advanced data structures and algorithms means that you may lose the chance to teach them how to implement the basic stuff, eg. using a binary search tree to implement a map (typing `` mymap = {}; mymap[foo] = bar; '' is surely easier than implementing a BST yourself). You might ask why learn to reinvent the wheel when most modern languages provide these features, but these data structures and algorithms is the core of informatics olympiads, and one needs to learn from the basics. That being said, if the timeframe is just 2 months, I think teaching python might be most rewarding for the students.
C and Pascal are basically on the same league. C is a bit more "archaic" than Pascal in terms of the way it does things, but feature-wise they are roughly equivalent. The languages are simple, fast, and bare bones enough to force the user to implement the basic stuff. In the long term they are good languages for teaching data structures and algorithms, but require a bit of patience on the part of the student since you need to know quite a bit before you can do anything "flashy" with them.
My experience with most average students is that they usually struggle to form precise ideas on what to tell the program to do, and then when they do have rough ideas they then fail to write a syntactically correct program, and if they really do write a syntactically correct program the program usually fails on correctness for most inputs, or simply do the wrong thing. Running time shouldn't be a concern before the students actually get a correct program, and my experience is, unless you have really really bright students, most of them probably won't be able to come close to writing a correct program within competition constraints, so don't worry too much about running time.
In short, I recommend python, but in the long term you might want to think about using C/Pascal. And if you restrain yourself to a subset of C++, it might work too.
Don't quote me on this.
C++ is definitely the best language in the world.
My god
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
Even though I do 99% of my work in Java, C/C++, VB, or shell scripts, the few times that I have written in Python, it was an absolute pleasure.
The libraries that I used kicked Java/C++ library asses, to the extend that what was going to be a "short" 500 line program in Java dealing with parsing images, turned into an 80 line program in Python.
The best part is, it was extremely easy to debug as I wrote, since just about any line I dropped into the source file, I could check with the interpreter.
It also only took half an hour to pick up from other OOP languages.
I <3 Python
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
What I find interesting is that no one has mentioned that what's actually more important than the language itself is the available libraries/toolkit/frameworks that it comes with.
Let's face it, after you've learned a few languages it pretty much comes down to "what is printf called this week?" when you pick up a new language (functional languages aside). Getting familiar with frameworks is actually what takes the most time.
C++ and C are pretty bad in this department. STL is nice but only gets you so far. Threads? Nope (not yet). Sockets? No. XML/encryption/whatnot? Sorry. You have to write an awful lot of code to come up with this or find (and learn!) a support lib that does this. (I do C++ for a living.)
So I'd say: Python. Or C#/Mono (but that's not on the list, why?)
Geek by Nature - Linux by Choice.
I can only respond to this statement by quoting Wolfgang Paul: "Not only is it not right, it's not even wrong!"
This is a student's programming contest, right? Why are you even concerned about compile time or "startup" time?
Normally there is a time limit during which the competition runs. The faster your tools are, the more time you have to write code.
A kid might need 50 tries to get his program right.
PHP is not really what I'd suggest as a good choice. Unless you're doing web development it is fairly unused. And even if you ARE doing web development, its had plenty of bugs and major language changes from release to release.
PERL would be a better choice from a pure "usefulness in getting a job" standpoint. It can be used for web development, and a whole heap of other tasks.
But having seen the range of things python has been used to implement, and what I've heard about how easy it is to learn (i'm not a python coder at the moment), I'd agree with the GP that it is a fine choice.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Well, it's true that the JVM may take some time to start... but once it's running, JIT and other make it run quite fast... You see game servers hosting hundred of players on a "normal" machine (not 8-CPU 4-core or similar), web sites using JSP, ...
And if you don't start to use the latest API (reflexion and similar) and stick to "standard" java, it'll make you create clean code...
But I agree that starting the JVM is rather slow... Even slower if you start it in "server" mode (but then, you'll get a speed increase while running the code)
The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
or teaching a language to non programmers children and sending them to Informatics Olympiad after two months is pretending too much?
In addition to the language, you must first teach them very basic concepts like variables, loops, recursion...
As soon as they start to digest them and write their first "Hello World"... BANG! You send them to Informatics Olympiad!
The CPU time limit is less important in this instance than the two months you have to teach them. In that amount of time, starting them from scratch, you won't likely get to the point of teaching them algorithm analysis and optimization anyway, much less benchmarks and profiling.
Consequently, Python will probably be a good deal *faster* than C, because its low-level stuff has already been optimized by people who know how.
If you use C, can you imagine getting new programming students, within two months, to the point where they are implementing hash-based associative arrays and a fast stable sort routine? I can't. In two months, working in C, you'll be lucky if they can remember how to copy a string.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Do they realise how much of the world's systems run Perl? And given that it's pretty much built into every major OS (yes, Windows needs a download). Wow, this is mind-boggling. I still can't get over it. And the fact that simple Perl is just that - so simple. Hello World is a one liner. No classes to define, no libraries to import, no header files to include.
And you can write poetry with it! (bonus points?)
There is an incredible performance penalty for most object oriented code written by beginners: they aren't taught to avoid the layers of abstraction that eat away at your performance, and they often hide incredible errors behind layers of abstraction that make debugging a nightmare.
Python seems a good compromise: as a scripted language, it's quite portable. It has good text processing, there's a large base of small examples to teach students with, and it doesn't suffer from that horrid mass of badly written, interdependendent, unstable and unnecessary utilities known as CPAN that clutters a lot of Perl programming.
However, the test has a run-time CPU seconds limit, so using an interpreted language like Python could put the students at a disadvantage compared to using C.
In my experience time limits are there to prevent students using primitive algorithms (the ones with exponential asymptotic performance).
N.B. I would have recommended Perl instead - but I'd refrain :)
Python should be and is in fact fast enough for most tasks. Taking algorithms into account, C gives only marginal advantage: bubble sort would suck even if you'd write it in assembler.
P.S. If that is still concern, one can allow interpreted languages to have e.g. twice more time compared to compiled languages.
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