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Memorizing Language / Spelling Techniques?

NotesSensei writes "My kids are learning Chinese in school. While the grammar is drop-dead simple, writing is a challenge since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters. I would like to know any good techniques (using technology or not) to help memorize large amounts of information, especially Chinese characters. Most of the stuff I Googled only helps on learning speaking."

237 comments

  1. Flashcards by Fjandr · · Score: 5, Informative

    Flashcards are great for learning Chinese or Japanese characters. There are also many characters, or parts thereof, that have a mnemonic relationship to the idea that they are used to impart. I can't think of any decent books offhand, but they're out there.

    Still, flashcards are awesome in this regard.

    1. Re:Flashcards by schnipschnap · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes, use flash cards, but not the dead tree type. Use anki. I use it to study Japanese, and I'm sure it's almost as good for Chinese.
      http://ichi2.net/anki/

    2. Re:Flashcards by Rand310 · · Score: 1

      yep. Anki. It's the way to go.

    3. Re:Flashcards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I thought this was a good book for Chinese characters. I agree, flashcards are good as well (I like the paper type, if you can do it away from a computer I think you're more likely to do it)

    4. Re:Flashcards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to your "self-diagnosis" everyone I know has ADD. It's very natural to not want to the "anything difficult or repetitive". What everyone needs to learn, and I think this applies at even the very earliest of schooling is how to LEARN. It wasn't until I tried to learn a musical instrument that I understood the importance of practice, practice, practice (oh and did I mention practice?). Flash cards enable that practice.

    5. Re:Flashcards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Anki is based on an algorithm that reminds you of material just before you will have forgotten it, called the Forgetting Curve. The more times you are reminded, the stronger the pathways in the brain become and the easier it is to recall later. This algorithm was pioneered by a Polish man and implemented in a system called SuperMemo. You can read more about the inventor and his system in this great Wired article: http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/magazine/16-05/ff_wozniak

      Anki used version 2 of the SuperMemo algorithm. The inventor writes his own software with Windows (called SuperMemo) and I believe he is on version 13 of the algorithm. Unfortunately, I can't much recommend SuperMemo software as it's very difficult to use, but Anki takes the basics and makes it usable.

    6. Re:Flashcards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh Woz, what can't you do?

    7. Re:Flashcards by gijoel · · Score: 1

      You could always go with the Leitner system. The main focus of the system is to drill the flash cards you have problems as opposed to all of them.

      Mnemosyne is a nice simple open sourced program capable of being used across several platform. Here's a bunch of videos a guy put together on using it.

    8. Re:Flashcards by Oren+Bai+Song · · Score: 2, Informative

      nciku.com an online flashcard learning site just for Chinese, with handwriting recognition to boot. It's also from my experience the most thorough online english chinese dictionary, with both audio and lots of example sentences.

      As for non-web applications, heres a really good free Chinese deck:

      http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/node/30

    9. Re:Flashcards by pdp1144 · · Score: 1

      I used flashcards to learn Egyptian Hieroglyphics, learn Greek grammar and learn the Cyrillic alphabet. When I pick up Chinese I will use them again.

    10. Re:Flashcards by soilheart · · Score: 1

      Yeah, flashcards is great. Write the character on one side, the English on top on the other side and the pinyin (pronunciation) on the bottom of the other side. Keep your thumb over the pinyin and learn it from English to pinyin/character. Usually you learn the other way around too, if not then just turn the card and try to translate/say the characters.

      Also "since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters" is absolutely wrong...
      I have studied Chinese for 3 years and nowadays if I can't read a character I just guess the sound is similar to similar characters and more often than not you actually succeed in some way. The radical of the character tells you what the word is about, the other part may sometimes give you a good clue about pronunciation.

    11. Re:Flashcards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have been using Anki for the past seven months to learn Arabic. It's wonderful!

      Just don't be surprised when you realize that you don't learn as quickly as you think you should. (Over seven months, I average about 15 new cards per day. That's all.)

    12. Re:Flashcards by vegacom · · Score: 1

      I use smart.fm webapp. It contains variety of lists for different pairs of languages. Many for English-Japanese.

    13. Re:Flashcards by Rakshasa+Taisab · · Score: 1

      Bollocks.

      Flashcards are one thing that does not always do better in a digital form. Sure, use them on a computer, but also have dead tree format for when you're commuting or just happen to have a few minutes to practice.

      --
      - These characters were randomly selected.
    14. Re:Flashcards by ExplitiveNOW · · Score: 1

      Anki is amazing. You can customize it so you can add phrases and proverbs, slang etc. It is based on the idea that there is an optimum time to memorize new information. To soon after first contact and your waiting your time, to late and you have already forgotten it. A beautiful system.

    15. Re:Flashcards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think when you use your computer, you don't kill trees?

    16. Re:Flashcards by Hanzie · · Score: 1

      Dear parent-posting Anonymous Coward,

      Thank you, thank you, thank you. You have pointed me to a wealth of information. At bare minimum, it will save me at least $50 in entertainment paperback purchases, since I'll spend at least that much time reading where that site has led me.

      Also, the Wozniak who made the system isn't the Apple guy. I know you know, but I say that for the benefit of others.

      Thanks again, A.C.

      hanzie

      --
      ********* sig: If you don't like the law, get filthy stinking rich, and buy a better one.
    17. Re:Flashcards by cuser14159 · · Score: 1
      http://www.skritter.com/ Writing Chinese characters? Enough said!

      I started off on Anki for recognition, but Skritter is soooooo much better for learning to write. Requires a flash app (boo hiss), but is so compelling I make an exception for them. The flash app plus online vocabulary server implements a virtual writing pad with real-time stroke recognition feedback combined with a spaced repetition system and automatic addition of vocab words as retention rates are hit.

      Why learn just to read when you can learn to write for not much more effort?

      Obviously drawing Chinese strokes with a mouse can be unwieldy, but get yourself a cheap Wacom tablet or tablet/convertible notebook and you are off to the races.

      As for the spaced repetition system, friends I have introduced to Skritter all had doubts at first when crazy difficult characters come up and say "how am I ever supposed to learn that?". Even without any special practice on the side, simply seeing the new words and forgetting them over and over at variably spaced repetition times enabled an aha moment later on when you realized you had suddenly achieved recall. This recall needs to be reinforced at spaced intervals, but it sure beats the method I had as a kid where you write the same character 50 times. Move to next character, repeat lather and rinse. Take a test and forget everything after the test.

      Best of all, the whole presentation and active writing involvement is as fun and addictive as a video game. Great for short attention span folks...

      I have no relation to Skritter team, I'm just an ecstatic user developing CTS from my skritter addiction.

    18. Re:Flashcards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think flashcards helps a lot when learning chinese and japanese. combine them with mnemonics on the b side of the card and youre halfway there! theres also an online tool for this called linguar.com which lets you create your own lists.. i use it quite regularly to practice on my japanese exam!

    19. Re:Flashcards by singsung · · Score: 1

      im also using flash cards to study for my japanese exam, i found an online tool where you can create you own vocabulary lists or grab one from their bank, i think there are some for chinese as well. http://linguar.com/

    20. Re:Flashcards by muckracer · · Score: 1

      > Yes, use flash cards, but not the dead tree type.

      I still much prefer the dead-tree type. Have not yet found a nice flashcard-maker program, that'll let you let you create the cards front and back and then print them out double-sided on a sheet of paper (several cards on one page so you'll cut it up into individual cards with scissors). Searching through the already entered vocabulary would be nice too. Suggestions anyone (pref. Linux)?

    21. Re:Flashcards by nobodie · · Score: 1

      Flashcards only work for character recognition, which generally only has value in the short term. The real difficulty for western learners is writing and while you foolishly think the grammar is "simple" you don't have even the ghost of a clue about the syntax (word order) which is where the meaning on the sentence level is hidden. Any language is a coherent whole that interacts between the parts, there is no one single simple trick that will solve the learning riddle. The sad/ interesting thing is that Chinese people are not especially good at teaching their own language. My son, (7 years old and going to a Chinese elementary school here in mainland China) is finding it rather easy to master through simple acquisition desire: he wants it, he uses it and so he master's it. Embarrassingly for the other students and parents in the school he is #3 in the class. (Oh neither parent is anywhere close to fluent in Chinese and we use him when we really need help) If your son has the opportunity to use his new language skills daily, for accomplishing things that he wants then he might be able to build good skills. But without that no matter the method he will lose whatever he gains fairly quickly. If his teacher can arrange for a time in the class where students must interact and share information in the class through both speaking/ listening and writing/reading then this approach can help, but believe me this field (of 2nd or foreign language learning) is full of ideas that are not yet ready to be successful methods. How do I know? It's my job.

      --
      Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
    22. Re:Flashcards by chad_r · · Score: 1

      I also highly recommend Skritter if your goal is writing characters. Use an SRS program for reading, and Skritter for writing.

      However, to budget your time, you should decide the relative importance of reading, writing, speaking and listening. In a language like Chinese, there is only limited overlap between each of these skills. A learner can be great at reading, but totally unable to speak or listen. Or, he can be great in conversation, but totally illiterate. You may also want to rethink the importance of handwriting. It may be nice to be able to write some characters to impress your friends, and at least understanding the stroke order and how characters in general are made up is useful. But being able to write freely without constantly checking a reference will be hard work, and will be taking away from the other 3 aforementioned skills. Also, without years of practice your writing will look like a 5-year old's. If you want to type Chinese characters, that's entirely different from handwriting, and is dead simple if you know the pinyin.

    23. Re:Flashcards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I studied Chinese for 2 years, and at first had difficulty relating the character, the phonetic and the translation together using normal 2-sided flash cards.

      I developed what I call "3-sided paper":
      Fold a small strip of paper in half. On the folded side that points outward ("side 1"), write the Chinese character.
      On the inside of the paper, write the pinyin on one half of the fold and the English translation on the other.

      Now you can practice any of the 3 pieces of information. Keep the strips in a bucket or box, and as a warm-up to your daily studies grab a few out randomly and test yourself.

  2. I'm no expert on this, but I don't see a relation between sound and shape of our letters either. So the answer is to study as hard as you can and also: repetition!

    1. Re:Same? by mmmmbeer · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think what he means is that the same characters can be used for unrelated sounds in Chinese. At least in English, you can get close by writing phonetically, but in Chinese there's no equivalent. At least as far as I'm aware.

    2. Re:Same? by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 2, Informative

      IIRC, Chinese characters represent individual syllables. English letters are strung together to make syllables. I think he's lamenting that syllables in English that sound similar will generally look similar, but there is no such resemblance in Chinese.

    3. Re:Same? by Guido+von+Guido · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm no expert on this, but I don't see a relation between sound and shape of our letters either. So the answer is to study as hard as you can and also: repetition!

      We've basically got 26 characters to worry about (plus numbers, punctuation marks and various symbols). To be literate in Chinese, you have to know 3-4 thousand characters--and there are tens of thousands of characters in all. There are also two different sets of characters, simplified and traditional. So while neither have any relationship to sound, memorizing any alphabet is a hell of a lot easier.

    4. Re:Same? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, it's just that there are thousands of Chinese characters to learn, so you have to find an efficient method. In English you just have a few dozens letters and letter combinations to learn (like 'ph' in photo) so it doesn't really matter how you learn them.

    5. Re:Same? by Judinous · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You've got the same amount of total information to memorize no matter what when it comes to learning a new language. Any type of writing system has its advantages and disadvantages, though. When you're using an alphabet, it's true that once you know the letters you will be able to pronounce any word that you come across, but you probably won't have any idea what it means. When you're using ideographs, such as in Chinese, you'll probably have a pretty good idea what a new character means, but not how to pronounce it. I'd say that the latter is far more useful in everyday practice, personally. It's true that you can achieve a similar effect once you start to learn the etymology behind an alphabetic language (such as guessing meanings through Latin or Germanic roots in English), but if you've progressed that far it doesn't really matter what kind of characters are being used, anymore.

    6. Re:Same? by oliverlangan · · Score: 3, Informative

      That is true in Japanese, but much less common in Chinese. Chinese generally has a single one-syllable pronunciation for each glyph, though grammar rules can change the tone of character in a given word. There can also be several glyphs which share a single pronunciation (homonyms): there are more characters in Chinese than there are possible phoneme combinations (given the rules of the language for constructing syllables).

    7. Re:Same? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. If they represented only syllables, there would be only a few dozen symbols, not thousands. They represent whole words.

    8. Re:Same? by Smauler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When you're using an alphabet, it's true that once you know the letters you will be able to pronounce any word that you come across

      Not a chance in English. There are loads of rules involving combinations of letters (ce, ge, kn etx). There are loads of letters and letter combinations that don't have a set pronunciation (th, ough, etc). There are at least hundreds of downright exceptions to all the rules (get, acknowledge, etc). To learn English well, you need to memorise _all_ of these, and many of the exceptions are in common words. As an example, do you pronounce thought like though, but with a t on the end?

    9. Re:Same? by ultranova · · Score: 0

      You've got the same amount of total information to memorize no matter what when it comes to learning a new language.

      True. However, if that language uses an alphapet you're familiar with, you can learn it with a dictionary in one hand (that's how I learned English (I'm a native Finnish-speaker)). On the other hand, with Chinese (or Japanese or whatever), how will you look up unfamiliar words? Sure, you could have a dictionary, but how will you know where to open it, when you don't know the alphapetic-equivalent, much less the equivalent of alphaphetical order? That's the real barrier to learning these languages.

      If anyone has good ways of passing that, I'd be really grateful to hear them. I've long wanted to learn Japanese, but this has been a pretty efficient roadblock...

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    10. Re:Same? by PetriW · · Score: 1

      If anyone has good ways of passing that, I'd be really grateful to hear them. I've long wanted to learn Japanese, but this has been a pretty efficient roadblock...

      I'd recommend Remembering the Kanji by James W. Heisig, it's what got me through kanji after failing the "normal" way of doing it. Takes about 2-3 months if you put in a lot of time. Took me about 4 months at a somewhat relaxed pace entering about 100 kanji into Anki each weekend, each kanji taking about 5 minutes.
      Once you can read the kanji studying japanese becomes a lot easier. The language isn't all that hard, just need to spend a lot of time, like with any language.

      For more info I'd recommend checking out Reviewing the Kanji and it's forum at: http://kanji.koohii.com/

    11. Re:Same? by Judinous · · Score: 1

      Words in Japanese dictionaries are generally organized by radical. To use the Kanjidamage example again, look at http://kanjidamage.com/howto and note the components of that kanji. In that example, "bury" would be listed along with other "earth" kanji. There are a couple hundred basic kanji that you'll need to learn, but essentially all other kanji are composed primarily of some combination of those more basic ones. For example, you can see that not only is "bury" made up of the kanji for "earth" and "village", and "village" is made up of yet another "earth" and a "rice paddy". As you add a new basic kanji to your vocabulary, you'll find that you often gain tens or hundreds more almost automatically by combining it with the other symbols you already know. While more archaic words will only give you a vague indication of the meaning behind a symbol (earth + rice paddy = village or earth + village = bury does make some kind of sense), newer kanji are intentionally constructed to be easily understood (wise + science = philosophy, for example).

      Aside from Kanjidamage and a good dead-tree dictionary, I'd also recommend getting Rikaichan (http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan/) for Firefox. If you hover over a kanji, it will display the furigana and definition in English (or German, Russian, or French) for you. It's not uncommon to find Japanese reading material with furigana already printed next to the kanji, either, which helps a lot as well. If you own a Nintendo DS, you might look into getting your hands on one of the kanji dictionary programs available for it. They're region locked, so you might have to go with an R4 cart + rom, but even if you decide to buy a Japanese DS, it's likely still cheaper than most other digital kanji dictionaries. The major advantage to these programs is that you can simply write the character on the touch screen and it does a pretty good job of figuring out what you're trying to look up. I've heard that there are newer ones that can even take advantage of the DSi's camera, but I don't have any experience with it, myself.

    12. Re:Same? by amRadioHed · · Score: 2, Informative

      There a handful of characters that have different pronunciations in different contexts. For example the last characters of yinyue (music) and kuaile (happy) are the same, although in the first word it is pronounced "yue" while in the other it is "le". There are a couple others like that I've come across, but I hear it is more common in Japanese.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    13. Re:Same? by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      That's wrong, most characters have a meaning on their own, but Chinese is not a mono-syllabic language. The average words is two syllables long and each syllable is represented by one character.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    14. Re:Same? by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      One common way in many dictionaries to look up unfamiliar characters is by first identifying a common component of the character known as a radical then count how many additional strokes are required to write the character. Then you can look up the radical and number of strokes in a table and find the character you want in the dozen or so possibilities listed. This is more difficult then looking in an alphabetical dictionary though, sometimes it's not obvious what radical a character is under.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    15. Re:Same? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      In all latin-based languages there is a phonetic alphabet only. This alphabet is made up of letters based on phonetic sounds. Using these phonetic letters and basic grammar rules you can correctly read any written word, whether you know what it means or not. You can then use a reference to find said words and look up their meaning.

      In other words, the shape represents a specific sound (or set of sounds). Knowing the letters in the alphabet also means you know how to pronounce the words written in that alphabet.

      Chinese, however, has no alphabet. It uses pictographs for the words, which are completely unrelated to its pronunciation and the only way to look them up in a reference is by searching for similarly constructed pictographs. They generally have base structures that all the pictographs are based on, and this is generally related in some way to the meaning of the word itself, but that can be so muddied that you would never figure it out. It also usually has nothing at all to do with how to pronounce the word. For example, I believe the word for Sunday involves rice patties. WTF? It's not pronounced the same as the word for rice patties, mind you, but it shares the base structure as rice patties. It's exactly the same kind of thing as Egyptian hieroglyphics - what the hell is "man facing left with palm face up at chest level" supposed to mean? How do you pronounce that? How do you look it up?

      Japanese is a little easier, as they use both Chinese characters and their own alphabet, but learning the characters is rote memorization for every single word.

      Completely off topic, but this is why the modern trend of teaching people to "read by sight" is such utter bullshit. The whole point of having an alphabet is so you can construct any word from a small number of symbols, making learning to write (and read) new words a breeze. If you can pronounce it you can probably spell it (grammar and spelling rules apply, of course), if you can spell it you can probably pronounce it. "Sight reading" completely breaks that because anybody who didn't pick up on the individual sounds each character makes (because the phonetic alphabet was not taught) is now stuck with a limited vocabulary that cannot be expanded upon without the same amount of training it would have taken to teach the alphabet phonetically in the first place!

      That's why while they can technically read, with a vocabulary in the 1000-2000 word range about 20% of Americans are functionally illiterate. They can read those stupid sight-reading books like the dickens but heaven help them if they try to read the back of a food label.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    16. Re:Same? by jabithew · · Score: 1

      Links can be a bit weird in Chinese. FIrst example you're likely to come across is ma. Ma (third tone) means horse. Toneless ma is a particle that changes a sentence into a question. The character for the particle is the character for horse with a mouth (kou) next to it, showing that it's a part of speech, and that it sounds like the word for horse.

      Several Chinese friends of mine assure me that there are links between meaning/sound and character for all of them, via these 'radicals', but it's a bit too Times-cryptic-crosswordy to be useful for Westerners.

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    17. Re:Same? by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      This is SO much more common in Japanese. See, the Japanese had a widespread spoken language long before they had a widespread written language. When travels to China resulted in "borrowing" the Chinese written language, many of the Chinese pronunciations were brought with them. But the Japanese pronunciations weren't tossed out. So most kanji characters in Japanese have a Chinese (onyomi) pronunciation and a Japanese (kunyomi) pronunciation.

      The other problem is that the Japanese have 2 key character sets for native words. Kanji are Chinese characters borrowed straight up and hiragana are characters borrows and then altered to represent the individual syllables of the Japanese alphabet. Chinese doesn't have the latter character set, only the first. Some Japanese works are just kanji. Some are a mix of kanji and hiragana (phonetic characters).

      Typically (but not always) the Chinese pronunciation is used in compound words and the Japanese pronunciation is used in words which feature only one kanji character or where the kanji character abuts hiragana (phonetic characters), such as at the end of verbs (phonetic characters end verbs because verbs get conjugated and the phonetic characters may change, whereas the verb's kanji characters do not).

    18. Re:Same? by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      Most Chinese don't really know thousands of characters, though, really. There are probably only a few hundred, perhaps a little more than a thousand, that you likely really need to get by.

    19. Re:Same? by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      According to an article on linguistics I read some years ago when I was in college, while Chinese characters do often carry a meaning, they are just as important for their sound. The Chinese language and its characters are considered morphemic, however, even though the truth is that the situation is very much a hybrid one.

    20. Re:Same? by Guido+von+Guido · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You've got the same amount of total information to memorize no matter what when it comes to learning a new language.

      I don't agree with this.You could learn Mandarin entirely with pinyin--grammar and vocabulary. Pinyin is the most common method of transliteration for Chinese, and consists of a good chunk of the alphabet with some additional markers for tones (similar to accent markers in French). But you could learn it in a couple of days to a week, even if you didn't know the alphabet.

      However, if you learn Mandarin using the Chinese script, you have to learn thousands of characters on top of that. Not only do you have to learn the characters, but you have to learn the stroke order and the stroke count (which is used to look up characters in a dictionary). This is substantially more information.

    21. Re:Same? by klui · · Score: 1

      Since English borrows from so many other languages, these exceptions are what confuse someone who is a native Chinese speaker, for example. In addition, English contains words that are spelled and sound the same but have different meanings. Chinese, not so much--lots of characters that sound the same but have different glyphs.

    22. Re:Same? by adamdoyle · · Score: 1

      do you pronounce thought like though, but with a t on the end?

      only if you're Canadian...

    23. Re:Same? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      I don't see a relation between sound and shape of letters

      Actually, there are !!

      And I tried to illustrate it on an earlier message in this thread but unfortunately Slashdot does NOT support double-byte Unicode and I couldn't post that very useful trick my Chinese language teacher taught me.

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    24. Re:Same? by ironfrost · · Score: 1

      Paper dictionaries usually have something called a radical index, where you find the character by its main feature and the number of additional strokes. But the best solution is to use more modern technology - various online and mobile dictionaries have a feature that lets you draw characters with your mouse, touchscreen etc and looks them up for you. The best one for Chinese is nciku.com; another dictionary with that feature is mdbg.net, but that one needs you to get the correct stroke order, which you might not be able to figure out for an unknown character. Here's one I found for Japanese: http://kanji.sljfaq.org/kanji13/draw.html - this one also seems to need correct stroke order, so there's probably something better available if you google hard enough.

    25. Re:Same? by holdenholden · · Score: 1

      Words represent abstract ideas. "Red" represents an arbitrary volume in RGB space. "Three" represents an abstraction. "Chair" represents an abstraction.

      In all human languages the number of ideas is roughly the same (except for English, which has 450K curse words in addition). Foreigners learning English (I am one) struggle to learn the correct sequence of letters that produces the word in English corresponding to a particular abstraction. You struggle to learn the particular sequence of chicken scratch that represents the same abstraction in Chinese. Thousands of words in English, thousands of characters in Chinese, I fail to recognize any meaningful difference.

      When I was learning English we were required to write each word 60 times in a row. We were learning between 50 and 120 new words every day. We were learning by heart short (one-page) texts in English which contained most of the new words for the day. As a result, we had a mechanical connection (writing) to the meaning of the word (repeating its meaning while you are writing it), and we also had it committed to memory in context. On top of that, we did weekly and monthly reviews of old words to refresh them in our memory, as well as compositions and translations to force us to apply them to new contexts.

      Then I came to the US and realized that I couldn't speak the language. Write, read: yes; but speaking takes a whole new level of understanding. To get to that level you need full immersion. It takes about 3 months or more, depending on your non-speaking knowledge. Some Chinese students never learn plurals in English even after years in the US. Us foreigners will almost always mispronounce the sound "th", as in "there". Such is life.

    26. Re:Same? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      What do you mean? Chinese does too have an alphabet! By Good Characters, Inc., only $2.99.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    27. Re:Same? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can claim that, but know this; Chinese doesn't have a sack full of tense and aspect. You don't need to learn when to use past perfect and when to use past progressive.

      I assert that most human languages are Turing-complete and therefore roughly equivalent.

    28. Re:Same? by koxkoxkox · · Score: 1

      This is simply not true. I consider I know around 1500 characters, and I am still a long way to fluency. 3000 is more of a reasonable goal.

    29. Re:Same? by Rangelus · · Score: 1

      You are correct, except that Pinyin is a terrible system to learn with. I recommend all learners of Mandarin start with Zhuyin instead. It creates a conceptual difference between your language and Chinese, and leads to better pronunciation, faster.

    30. Re:Same? by American+Terrorist · · Score: 1

      shi ma? shishi shang shi bu shi zhen de? wo shishi shishi shishi la

      While I suppose you COULD learn Chinese only with Pinyin, I can't imagine how painful that would be, and you'd never be able to read anything or be considered remotely literate. Probably why they never changed to pinyin.

      Anyway, most of the comments here seem to be related learning to read, which in Chinese is a much easier task than writing. I can read newspapers just fine, but I gave up trying to memorize exactly how to write each character a long time ago, and just use pinyin input on my computer to write when I need to. I feel sorry for students who have to write with their hands, it really is quite difficult and slow for non-native learners. Even my Chinese friends can't remember how to write many of the characters they can easily read, and often if two or more them are in the same room when I ask them how to write a character, they will argue for a few minutes before consulting some reference to figure out exactly what the strokes are. They're also very used to computers doing that work for them.

    31. Re:Same? by koxkoxkox · · Score: 1

      Use an electronic dictionary, with character recognition. This way you can just write the character on the screen and it will look it up. I have that on my phone (Pleco on Windows Mobile) and it is a life-saver. I like to browse a good old paper dictionary from time to time, but the radical system is just too slow for real life use. This way I have been able to read real stuff much sooner, and it is much more interesting and rewarding than language learning texts.

    32. Re:Same? by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      shi ma? shishi shang shi bu shi zhen de? wo shishi shishi shishi la

      While I suppose you COULD learn Chinese only with Pinyin, I can't imagine how painful that would be, and you'd never be able to read anything or be considered remotely literate. Probably why they never changed to pinyin.

      Well of course it is painful if you omit the tones.

      Or perhaps you meant the (IMHO) unusually high number of homophones, which makes Pinyin unsuitable for any remotely advanced text.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    33. Re:Same? by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      Fluency in what way? Fluency as in one who is an educated foreigner? If you took the average Chinese citizen's reading ability, I wonder how many characters they would actually know. I'm making some assumptions, yes, but only because I really don't know.

    34. Re:Same? by xandroid · · Score: 1

      "When you're using ideographs, such as in Chinese, you'll probably have a pretty good idea what a new character means, but not how to pronounce it"

      Well, not quite, at least in Chinese. Most characters give you a small hint about the meaning plus a small hint about the pronunciation.

      For example, check out this character: http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/rsc/img/chargif/GB256s/stat/c2e8.gif pronounced "ma" (in Mandarin) with a high unchanging pitch (1st tone), it means "mother". It's made of two halves. The left half hints at its meaning; http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/rsc/img/chargif/GB256s/stat/c5ae.gif means "woman" (and is pronounced "nu"). The right half hints at its pronounciation; http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/rsc/img/chargif/GB256s/stat/c2ed.gif is pronounced "ma" with a falling and then rising pitch (and means "horse"). So someone unfamiliar with this character could guess that it's pronounced something like "ma" and has a meaning that's somewhat related to women -- but wouldn't specifically know if it were actually pronounced "la" or "mu", and wouldn't specifically know if it meant "young girl" or "pregnancy" or whatever.

      This isn't true for all characters, but IIRC it is for the majority.

      --
      $ echo "ceci n'est pas une pipe" | sed -Ee 's/(eci n|pas )//g'
    35. Re:Same? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've got the same amount of total information to memorize no matter what when it comes to learning a new language.

      I don't agree with this.You could learn Mandarin entirely with pinyin--grammar and vocabulary. Pinyin is the most common method of transliteration for Chinese, and consists of a good chunk of the alphabet with some additional markers for tones (similar to accent markers in French). But you could learn it in a couple of days to a week, even if you didn't know the alphabet.

      However, if you learn Mandarin using the Chinese script, you have to learn thousands of characters on top of that. Not only do you have to learn the characters, but you have to learn the stroke order and the stroke count (which is used to look up characters in a dictionary). This is substantially more information.

      that is false. just pick up any dictionary and you can see that many terms sound exactly the same and the only way to tell them apart is by either context or how it is written. pin ying is insufficient if you want to learn chinese.

      the same thing can be said for japan. i believe they tried to phase out the use of kanji but could not because of both resistance by the population and also because the only way to know the true meaning of something written is by the exact character chosen by the writer.

  3. Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm learning Chinese right now too and I use http://www.nciku.com and put in all my vocabulary from each lesson and just continuously test myself every day on the vocab I'm learning and have learned to always keep it fresh in my mind. I think you're really at a loss here to do anything other than just practice, practice, practice as, like you said, there's no correlation between characters and sounds.

    1. Re:Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is often a correlation though, but it's not always reliable and you might need to know quite a few characters to "get the hang of it". At least that's the case in Japanese where the readings are based on the old Chinese readings, so I guess the same is true in Chinese. (phonetic radicals etc.)

      As usual, I recommend everyone to read around a bit on this site, in particular I recommend this excerpt about the "ideographic myth" :)

    2. Re:Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. by labadie3 · · Score: 0

      Eh ... you are correct that learning the language just takes repetition, but there is quite a lot of both rhyme and reason behind the characters and how they come together. One of the six classifications of characters is indeed based on the sound of the character (homonyms with different radicals)

      The radicals and characters fit together, and have evolved over time like any language. The best book that covers all of this, and traces the evolution of character components to the modern set is covered in CHINESE CHARACTERS, Their Origin, Etymology, History, Classification and Signification by Dr. L. Wieger, S.J. (http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Characters-Dover-books-language/dp/0486213218). A true understanding of the Chinese language requires understanding how the language came to be what it is today, and is a lesson in both Chinese culture and Chinese history at the same time. I hope you all enjoy your adventures into the language as much as I did back when I started.

      I started studying Chinese in 1996, and the book above is still one of my favorites for understanding the structure behind the language that all native Chinese just know.

  4. A proven technique by chrysalis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Date a native speaker.

    --
    {{.sig}}
    1. Re:A proven technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      I did but only learned 3 words: "sucky sucky five dollah!"

    2. Re:A proven technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Date a native speaker that doesn't speak your native tongue.

    3. Re:A proven technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's some truth in this. The best way to learn a language, in my opinion (which was developed through experience). Definitely do it... it's like having a personal tutor with benefits ;)

    4. Re:A proven technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This might work if the native speaker doesn't speak your language. I've been with a native Chinese speaker for 10 years and I'm not beyond the beginner stage.

    5. Re:A proven technique by cababunga · · Score: 1

      You should ask how old his kids are first.

    6. Re:A proven technique by NotesSensei · · Score: 1

      Old enough to understand what the grownups do when dating. Still young enough to find it gross :-)

    7. Re:A proven technique by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Doesn't work. I'm married to one and that hasn't helped my Chinese much. We stick to talking English to each other (our common language, a foreign language for both of us). Living in Hong Kong however that helps. And I have taken classes, that also helped me a lot. So by now I can have a simple conversation in Chinese. Well that is as long as I don't venture out too far, Cantonese is spoken mostly in Guangdong province ("only" about 300 mln people), and I don't speak Mandarin. Mostly useless to me.

      Oh and for those who are wondering why I learned Cantonese (it's said to be harder than Mandarin): no-one around me speaks Mandarin, it's a foreign language here. And 80% of my Chinese business associates speak Cantonese. It's interestingly also widely spoken in Singapore (where the Mandarin dialect is the official Chinese - Cantonese is spoken more) and basically all Chinese communities worldwide outside of China/Taiwan speak Cantonese.

      For an outsider however who hopes to learn some Chinese for doing business in China in general, learning Mandarin is probably the more practical choice. It's the official dialect, and widely spoken. But if you come to Hong Kong better try your luck with English. It's spoken much better than Mandarin here.

      Besides that every single town/village in China has their own dialect, often not mutually intelligible. Even in a small place like Hong Kong there are villages that speak Hakka. Unmistakably Chinese but totally unintelligible for Cantonese or Mandarin speakers.

      And for learning to write, there is only one way: like the children here. Learn the characters one by one, memorise them by writing them down dozens of times, and repeating them. Reading follows automatically that way.

    8. Re:A proven technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Argh. No kidding.

      Me: "You have an accent."

      Her: "No, I don't have an accent. I'm not from the countryside."

      Me: "Then why don't you sound like your friends or those guys on TV? It's a lot easier to understand them. Plus, they teach pronunciation better."

      Her: "I DON'T HAVE AN ACCENT! And I'm not cooking dinner."

      Me: "Good, because your parents never taught you to cook anyway 'cause of that one child thing and so everything you cook sucks."

      Her: "No sex for you."

      Me: "Big change. Dogpile for me again."

    9. Re:A proven technique by ksacilotto · · Score: 1

      That didn't work much for me... I'm Brazilian and date a Russian girl for almost 2 years and we speak in English most of times, we haven't learned many things from each other's language.

  5. Radical Spelling by NoTheory · · Score: 2, Informative

    There are ideographic relationships between concepts and what's in the characters. Each of the elements in complex characters bears some of the meaning of the word. Dictionaries for Chinese and Japanese Kanji are in fact organized in this manner (by character radical). I can't recommend a particular manner of memorizing them (i failed abysmally at the task as a child, and am functionally illiterate as a result), however the relationships are there if you want to look for them.

    --
    There are lives at stake here!
    1. Re:Radical Spelling by shadow0_0 · · Score: 1

      Cant agree more as a native speaker. Understanding radical is a great way to learn. Not only radicals give you a hint as to the meaning behind the word, it sometimes give you hints as the the pronunciation.

    2. Re:Radical Spelling by Lars512 · · Score: 1

      There are ideographic relationships between concepts and what's in the characters. Each of the elements in complex characters bears some of the meaning of the word. Dictionaries for Chinese and Japanese Kanji are in fact organized in this manner (by character radical). I can't recommend a particular manner of memorizing them (i failed abysmally at the task as a child, and am functionally illiterate as a result), however the relationships are there if you want to look for them.

      I also have studied Chinese as a child and Japanese as an adult, neither to a fluent level, and can vouch for the parent's suggestion to look at components during study. That's about half of Heisig's method, which other posters have mentioned, the other half being to not worry about pronunciation until you've first learned the meaning of many characters. (Aside: plenty of people vouch for Heisig, plenty criticise it too; I don't know of any studies showing that it really works, only anecdotes from individuals.)

      The only point I'll add is that learning characters is a big memorisation task, and many characters aren't based on strong visual meaning. Don't feel bad about inventing a story to help you remember, even if the story is technically wrong or makes incorrect assumptions about components. Chinese and Japanese teachers make up such stories all the time to teach characters to their students, since as a pure memorisation technique it works.

    3. Re:Radical Spelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Japanese ones are organized that way. You would have to put some effort into finding a Chinese dictionary organized by radical because everyone uses the ones organized alphabetically by Pinyin pronunciation.

    4. Re:Radical Spelling by koxkoxkox · · Score: 1

      Yes, Chinese dictionaries are mostly organized by pinyin alphabetical order, but there are always look-up tables organized by radicals, and sometimes by stroke count, in order to be able to find a character for which you don't know the pronunciation.

    5. Re:Radical Spelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      chinese dictionaries have been sorting characters according to how it sounds for quite a while. there is an appendix at the back which goes by strokes though.

  6. Why not ask the teachers? by mmmmbeer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wouldn't this be something you could get best from their teachers? Not that there's anything wrong with asking Google or Slashdot, but the first place I would go is to their teachers. One would think - or at least hope - that they would have additional tools they could give you to help your kids study.

    1. Re:Why not ask the teachers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One would think - or at least hope - that they would have additional tools they could give you to help your kids study.

      I admit, I'm not a great speaker of Chinese, but I think tools like this are great.

    2. Re:Why not ask the teachers? by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      ... Not that there's anything wrong with asking Google or Slashdot, but the first place I would go is to their teachers....

      Yes, but where do good teachers get their "additional tools"? There are a couple of places. (1) They go online. If they can do it, you can too. (2) They watch and see what their students and parents come up with. When they recognize a good idea, they'll perpetuate it. For this to work, some students and parents need to do independent research. (3) They use what they were taught with. (4) They receive teacher oriented marketing. Most of it is junk (as with all marketing), but there are nuggets there. (5) They come up with something radical on their own.

      In short, asking the teacher is really a good idea. Asking the teacher, though, should not be the last and only step in searching for learning tools.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
  7. Language settings? by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

    Any anecdotes out there regarding the helpfulness (or lack thereof) in changing your computer's default language?

    1. Re:Language settings? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did that.... having been familiar enough with windows to already know where everything i need to look for helps... but i think it's more trouble than it's worth. Better off just trying to visit a few chinese websites

    2. Re:Language settings? by wagr · · Score: 1

      Anecdote: I've regularly switched between English (US) and Japanese on my computers at home and at work for nearly a decade (and doing so keeps getting easier). I started learning Japanese in 1999 and found playing with it on the computer helped by adding experience using the language as opposed to just memorizing for tests.

      As a multi-language computer user, I've been careful about application design, which has come in very handy these last three years as we've grown to support our services in more countries. Three weeks ago, one of our salesmen forwarded a question from a potential client in Japan. My answer was this simple: "Yes, switch the regional setting to Japanese and restart the program."

      The downside is I now get frustrated when I see an English sentence fail to get across some subtle meaning when Japanese has a direct word for it.

    3. Re:Language settings? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Just start using the romanized Japanese word for it whenever you need the subtle meaning. If you're using it in technical documentation, put a footnote the first time you use it. English doesn't care about linguistic purity or any of that nonsense.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    4. Re:Language settings? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Whenever you start a Chinese program, and you get garbage instead of Chinese characters, use Microsoft AppLocale to fix the problem. Works like a charm.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  8. Not for English, either by Sarten-X · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I taught English to kids in Africa, and found very few natural connections between English sounds and letters. One of the few techniques that worked decently was to pick some words that could be formed into the letter. For example, the letter "k" can be drawn as a key. It's not great, but it makes a connection that otherwise wouldn't exist. If your kids are picking up words well enough, this might be useful. Good luck.

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    1. Re:Not for English, either by Trebawa · · Score: 1

      Not natural connections, but there are connections. The OP's problem is that Chinese characters have no visual connection to the sound they represent, and there's a huge variety of characters with the same sound.

    2. Re:Not for English, either by MBCook · · Score: 2

      Yes, there is no reason a K is pronounced like a K. You can make up mnemonics, but it's just an abstract shape. There are only 26 to learn (56 if you include capitals, which can bare resemblance to the lower case versions).

      I've been trying to learn Japanese and this effects me too. I learned Katakana and Hiragana pretty easily, using little mnemonics and memory tricks (Kana Pict-o-Graphics is amazing), and so the alphabets are easy to learn and retain. There are only about 100 in total, plus a few combinations that are easy to learn, and two possible add-on marks (called diacriticals, I think) which change the sound. This is made easier because some Katakana look almost exactly like the equivalent Hiragana, and they are all for the same sets of sounds (so there is no sound that you can write in Katakana that isn't in Hiragana). The whole thing can be memorized in a week or two with enough effort. Memorizing that much stuff isn't terrible.

      Then you get to the Kanji, which are either borrowed Chinese characters, possibly changed and with new inventions. They're a nightmare. Some are simple and you can learn based on what they represent (forrest and river are pretty easy). Many are composed in ways that would help you learn them if you remember the parts and what they represent. Another Michael Rowley is pretty good here, Kanji Pict-o-Graphix. The problem is that book has over 1000 characters to learn. That's the amount that a 6th grader is expected to know (and the set in the book don't match that set, I don't think). The equivalent of high school is about 2000, with another 200 which have different readings when used in names.

      Then you get the fun of X means "moon" and Y means "duck", but XY might mean "reclining chair", which is read totally differently from the pronunciation of X and the pronunciation of Y. But if you don't know that combination, the sentence won't make sense.

      The poster is right. With these kind of languages, they really aren't hard. In fact, Japanese seems much more regular than English. The problem is that if you want to be literate, you're going to just have to blindly memorize a ton of stuff, and doing that is really difficult. I'm glad he asked this, it's something I'm struggling with.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    3. Re:Not for English, either by Magic5Ball · · Score: 1

      Ghoti.

      --
      There are 1.1... kinds of people.
    4. Re:Not for English, either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "gh" as /f/ is never used in English at the start of a word. "ti" as "sh" never stands by itself, it is always "tio" or "tia" and 99% of the time is "tion".

    5. Re:Not for English, either by jabithew · · Score: 1

      That's actually where our alphabet comes from (via the Greeks and Romans).

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    6. Re:Not for English, either by KingOfTheDustBunnies · · Score: 1

      Your post is substantially correct, but you shouldn't say 99% when you don't mean 99%. There are plenty of words with "-tious", "-tiate", etc.

      Also, whoosh.

    7. Re:Not for English, either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are right that you need to memorize a ton of stuff but the characters are not it. 2500 characters are 2500 pieces of information, hardly a ton of anything. If you learn a bit more, you will realize that knowing the kanjis isn't worth a shit. There are thousands of words spelled using the characters you(yes the present *you*) already know.
      Being able to parse the string "thoroughly" isn't worth a crap if you don't know how to pronounce it nor what its meaning is.
      The real problem with Japanese is that it doesn't share but a few words with Indo-European languages.

    8. Re:Not for English, either by MBCook · · Score: 1

      Quite true. But when I took French or Latin in school, you would learn the word for speaking and it's meaning, and you basically knew it for writing and reading. There were only a few little rules for spelling.

      If I were to learn German, I'd have to learn the vocabulary, the writing would be quite easy. Learning Japanese, I have to learn the vocabulary, as well as a different writing form. If I wanted to learn Korean, I'd have to learn Hangul, but it's an alphabet so it wouldn't be too hard.

      If everything in Japanese was written in Katakana or Hiragana, writing would be pretty easy.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  9. Flashcards by lawpoop · · Score: 1

    Flashcards. I would have never gotten through grade school math without them. I have terrible ( self-diagnosed ) ADD, procrastination, and aversion to doing anything difficult and repetitive. Math was beyond me. I would have flunked out of grade school if my mom hadn't sat me down with the flash cards every night.

    --
    Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
    -- Pablo Picasso
  10. Once you learn some radicals... by Dan+Morenus · · Score: 2, Interesting
    you'll find that some though not all Chinese words are meaning-sound combinations: for instance, many words that are pronounced "zhong" have one radical that is also pronounced "zhong" by itself though perhaps in a different tone.

    My wife and I have had success with making our own flashcards, each with a different character or compound word.

    --
    -- Conserve binary trees; recycle your email. --
    1. Re:Once you learn some radicals... by maxume · · Score: 1

      Hopefully you don't end up teaching each other Chonese.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Once you learn some radicals... by xandroid · · Score: 1

      Yep, I'd suggest starting by learning all the radicals up to like 5 strokes. It'll give you a good foundation to start learning the rest of the characters, as you'll know the meaning and pronunciation of the radicals and will start to see the connections between the pieces that comprise other characters.

      --
      $ echo "ceci n'est pas une pipe" | sed -Ee 's/(eci n|pas )//g'
    3. Re:Once you learn some radicals... by kubitus · · Score: 1
      I prepare learning cards for my Putonghua class. Works great.

      the teacher explaining the meaning of the radical(s) also helps understanding. Latest example:

      Character for water over the character for cold is 'zero'

  11. Try flashcard software by i-like-burritos · · Score: 5, Informative
    I've been studying Japanese for years, and flashcard software has really helped me with the Chinese characters. iFlash for OSX is an excellent tool.

    As others have said, there's no way around the need for repetition and a lot of practice.

    Also, diligence is extremely important. If you're not using them, then you forget the characters very quickly. If you're not careful you might actually find that you're forgetting characters as quickly as you're learning new ones.

  12. Mnemonics by Judinous · · Score: 3, Informative

    When learning kanji, I found that mnemonics were far and away the easiest way to remember all of those otherwise arbitrary Chinese characters. If you make flash cards similar to what you find at http://kanjidamage.com/howto and go through them every day, you'll plow through them at a steady pace. The mnemonic in that example incorporates the English meaning, pronunciation, and component radicals all in one sentence. If you can remember that sentence and recognize at least one of those components, it becomes easy to figure out the rest.

  13. Use flashcard software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've developed my own flash card software, I've used it for Japanese characters so I suspect it will work fine for Chinese as well. You can get it at http://www.helixsoft.nl/project_page.php?file_name=higgins.proj, some language files are included

  14. Incorrect assumption! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

    there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters.

    This is wrong. Many, if not most, Chinese characters give an indication to both meaning and pronunciation. For instance the Mandarin word for "same" is pronounced "tong". The Mandarin word for copper is also "tong", and the ideogram for copper contains two radicals: the "metal" radical, which indicates meaning, and the "same" radical, which indicates pronunciation.

    Once you learn the basic radicals, learning Chinese characters is not that hard. I can read Chinese much better than I can speak it.

    Flash cards work well. Some computer programs work well too. "Rosetta Stone" works really well, but it is expensive.

    1. Re:Incorrect assumption! by wagr · · Score: 1

      Yes! You've explained this better than I could have. I've found using Japanese kanji actually easier than remembering those English spellings. Stupid "i before e" rules with exceptions too long to list, when to use double or silent letters, or forget the e at the end of potato.

      And who ever came up with the idea that English letters look like the sounds (outside of 'o')? Let me see, if I form my lips like a double arch and place my tongue vertically under the center, I should make the sound for 'm', right?

    2. Re:Incorrect assumption! by Skewray · · Score: 1

      I completely agree with this - Chinese characters are quite phonetic for learning Chinese, while hopeless for Japanese. I never thought much of Rosetta Stone, though.

    3. Re:Incorrect assumption! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the same subject, I think every student of Chinese and Japanese should be forced to read this . :)

    4. Re:Incorrect assumption! by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      I like how people purpose mnemonic techniques and everything for remembering the Chinese characters, when they're composed of relatively simple characters. Sure there are 214 radicals, and some chars without radicals, but seriously, remembering that a word is composed of "tree tree cover" is like remembering that "marajuana" has a "j" that is pronounced like an "h" because it's from Spanish.

      So much of this confusion about Chinese characters is because they're so opaque, and no one seems to bother to teach them well enough.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    5. Re:Incorrect assumption! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *propose, *marijuana.

      I think I missed your point, there. You did have one, right? What's so hard (or easy) about remembering the spelling of marijuana? It's something that, if you're not a native Spanish speaker, you learn by repetition...... Oh.

      I don't think rote memorization works as well for languages past a basic fluency... which is fine, if all you want to achieve is asking for cabs, restaurants and hotels. And certainly, memorization has its place in learning to read and write any language, ideographs or not. But there's more to it than just remembering the shape of a certain character and mnemonics and other devices make memorization a lot more fun, and can improve long-term retention if they tie into pre-existing knowledge (eg, I will never forget how to say "Happy Birthday" in Spanish, because my Spanish class used to sing it).

    6. Re:Incorrect assumption! by snowgirl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The precise problem with how East-Asian languages are taught is rote memorization. They present you with a character and simply say "this means language", and it's pronounced "go".

      Likewise, Japanese tends to teach by patterns. Example: "*owner* wa *object* ga arimasu" means "owner has an/the object". Then later, they say "in order to say that someone has done something, use the pattern: *doer* wa *action in informal case* no ga arimasu."

      The problem with this, is that people don't realize that the "no" particle above is being used to turn a sentence into a noun phrase, and you're simply saying literally, "the person has that action", the same as if you were saying that they have an object.

      We present these languages, and scripts as if the only way to learn them is through rote memorization...

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    7. Re:Incorrect assumption! by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      It's more problematic for Japanese because there is no way to guess the reading from the radicals and there are many more readings than with Mandarin. One word may use the Tang dynasty reading whereas another the Ming reading for the same character. Throw in the native Japanese and it becomes a chore to remember everything.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    8. Re:Incorrect assumption! by matunos · · Score: 1

      Flashcards are probably the best for good ole fashioned memorization, but it might also help to have the kids use http://zhongwen.com's symbol-tree to translate characters from time to time. It will enhance their ability to recognize these types of radicals, both by having to try to find the character they're looking for in the tree, as well as by reading the radicals the character is composed of in the word definitions.

      (Note: the character tree is built up using the simplified characters; the translation/description of the characters also show the traditional characters, though.)

    9. Re:Incorrect assumption! by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      This is wrong. Many, if not most, Chinese characters give an indication to both meaning and pronunciation. For instance the Mandarin word for "same" is pronounced "tong". The Mandarin word for copper is also "tong", and the ideogram for copper contains two radicals: the "metal" radical, which indicates meaning, and the "same" radical, which indicates pronunciation.

      Once you learn the basic radicals, learning Chinese characters is not that hard. I can read Chinese much better than I can speak it.

      Flash cards work well. Some computer programs work well too. "Rosetta Stone" works really well, but it is expensive.

      Yeah, most people new to Chinese think the characters are arbitrary, but they're really not. I highly highly recommend the zipu (Character Chart) dictionary off Zhongwen.com. It breaks down every character to tell you why it's written that way. It's the best dictionary I've ever bought, for any language.

      I can't recommend Rosetta Stone, though. It just doesn't work for learning Chinese, since grammer is so important to the language, and it doesn't teach you grammar. I'd recommend the Fluenz software over that first. Failing that, buying a couple different books could be a good way to go. I like the Shaum's books on Chinese, as well as a green book called Essential Chinese Grammar, which ROCKS.

      I'm actually working on a grant right now that's teaching Mandarin to kids in San Diego. Would be kind of cool if the OP was the father of one of these guys.

  15. Hints to pronunciation and meaning by oliverlangan · · Score: 1

    There is really no relationship between latin characters and sound either, at least until you've learned them. Korean Hangul is the only character set that I know of in which a conscious effort was made to have the parts of the glyphs relate to the structure of the mouth when they are pronounced.

    That being said, it is not entirely true that there is no relationship between sound and character in Chinese. Once you have learned the hundred or so base characters, these are re-used over and over as 'radicals' (parts) in the more complex characters. The main radical often gives a hint to the meaning of the character (for example, 'water' may mean that you are talking about some liquid or water-related thing) and other parts of the character often give a hint to how the characters should be pronounced.

    In my experience, this is true for both Chinese and Japanese, but in very different ways. (In fact, the differences in the languages that originally shared a common writing system explains a lot of the divergence in their use of the characters.) Simplified Chinese (used for mainland Mandarin) has changed the shape of many characters without maintaining the hints that were previously embedded within the word.

    My suggestion would be to learn the simple first-and-second-year hanzi for whichever dialect your children are learning... probably no more than a hundred characters or so. You can probably do so much faster than they can. But at some point the pace of their classes will increase dramatically. You may be able to keep up as they learn additional characters, but ultimately the only way to learn them is to use them: practice practice practice. It takes time.

  16. Kanji by AXNJAXN · · Score: 1

    I had to learn Kanji (albeit much fewer than you'll have to for Chinese) when I took Japanese in college, and the easiest way I found to learn the characters is to memorize what the simplest characters look like first. That way, the more complicated ones are just combinations of things you already recognize. Plus, their meanings are usually related in some way. Beyond that, a program named Anki helped me a great deal with learning the Kanji since I didn't have to spend a ton of time for characters that were easy to learn.

  17. Byki flashcards by haystor · · Score: 1

    I started using the express version for free. Then went ahead and bought the deluxe version which included 150 lists. The vocabulary words in it already have sounds attached. It's some pretty slick software and they went out of their way to make it user friendly for managing/editing cards and lists of cards. For instance, I can make a list then do all the sounds at once if I want. Press record, speak my word/phrase, press record again to stop, check it with playback, press next for the next card in the list.

    It has a variety of modes, from simply viewing the cards to self-checking recognition to actually typing the answer. I'm currently doing Japanese with these cards and I was very impressed with how well it handles the input methods. I can type in English one second and when it asks for a response in Japanese it switches to a Japanese input method automatically.

    It also has a couple activities that you might find useful. I like the multiple choice activity.

    --
    t
  18. void WasteYourTime (void) by AlexLibman · · Score: 0

    while (MemorizedCharacterCount TOTAL_COLLAPSE && OfficialChineseWritingSystem != PINYIN) { cram(); cram(); cram(); /* ThinkAboutReturnOnInvestint(); */ cram(); }

    forget (EVERYTHING);

    Seriously, China will not own the 21st century, and they'll be even weaker in the 22nd. Demographics is everything. Sure, they're a big country (presuming they don't collapse like the Soviet Union did), but their per-capita GDP will be lagging, and China will grow old before it grows rich. And all Chinese people who are worth talking to are learning English. What matters is the ideas you can express, not how many languages you can express them in, and English will remain the most prestigious cultural, technological, and scientific language for the foreseeable future. And, phonetic insanity aside, English does deserve to be the global language by being the language of the culture responsible for modern science, the industrial revolution, and relative economic and personal freedom. The only reason China is doing so well economically is because they've abandoned Chinese ideas and made use of the ideas that were imported through places like Hong Kong (still the freest economy in the world, but thanks exclusively to its English influence). Of the top 5 Russian writers of the 20th century (and, yes, I'm counting Ayn Rand) 3 wrote in English, 1 fled to (eventually) Vermont! By the end of this century 70% of the world's 800 million remaining Chinese and 90% of the world's 4,500 million South Asians will speak decent English!

    The only language that can supersede English is something like Lojban, and studying that would actually be good for children's mental development. The Chinese language is like an explosion at the irrationality factory that's been burning for 5000 years!

    1. Re:void WasteYourTime (void) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bah, the first line of the above text should have been:

      while (MemorizedCharacterCount < 6000 && ChineseEconomy > TOTAL_COLLAPSE && OfficialChineseWritingSystem != PINYIN) { cram(); cram(); cram(); /* ThinkAboutReturnOnInvestint(); */ cram(); }

      Serves me right for not previewing and trusting Slashdot to escape my angle brackets for me...

      (Signed: Alex Libman's sock-puppet.)

  19. Heisig's technique by vorpal22 · · Score: 4, Informative

    James W. Heisig, a researcher at the Nanzan Institute for Religion and Culture in Nagoya, Japan, has released an excellent set of books for memorizing Japanese Kanji, traditional Chinese Hanzi, and simplified Chinese Hanzi:

    Remembering the Kanji:
    http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Vol-Complete-Characters/dp/0824831659/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269118367&sr=8-1

    Remembering the Traditional Hanzi:
    http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Traditional-Hanzi-Meaning-Characters/dp/0824833244/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_5

    Remembering the Simplified Hanzi:
    http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Simplified-Hanzi-Meaning-Characters/dp/0824833236/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

    While this technique focuses on memorizing the meaning of the characters (and how to write them yourself) and not so much on the readings of them, I've found it an absolutely invaluable technique for doing the former. I have an abysmal memory to the point that it's shocking, and yet using his techniques, I was able to easily memorize the meaning of about 400 characters and how to write them in a couple of weeks with only a couple of hours of dedication a day, which I was very impressed with. His technique is based on building up from simple radicals and employing visual memory to make everything stick in place, which basically means concocting an elaborate and often ridiculous story for each character to tie the correct radicals into their correct places. The story is usually so silly that it cannot be forgotten, which is, IMO, in where the trick lies. As your skill in recall develops, you can let go of the stories and move to natural recall.

    Also, the use of timed memorization software is essential when we're talking about this amount of information. Here are two great free software packages for this that were largely based specifically at learning Japanese (and thus are quite suitable for other languages, especially Chinese):

    Anki:
    http://ichi2.net/anki

    Mnemosyne:
    http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/

    (Personally, I prefer Mnemosyne a bit more, even though Anki has many more features, but this is because I'm making a set of cards to memorize all of Heisig's Kanji, traditional Hanzi, and simplified Hanzi, and I'm using HTML tables to store all the information. Mnemosyne preserves my HTML exactly, whereas Anki futzes with it and ruins the formatting.)

    1. Re:Heisig's technique by PetriW · · Score: 1

      Remembering the Kanji along with Anki has worked great for me. Can't recommend it enough.
      I learned the first 200 or so kanji in the traditional order and it's was a major pita. With Hesig kanji became fun and a lot easier.

      From what I've read Remembering the Hanzi is good as well so one should most certainly check it out.

    2. Re:Heisig's technique by FooSoft · · Score: 1

      This is so true. Heisig's method combined with using Anki for SRS (spaced repition system) works so well it's like a human memory exploit. You can learn and retain 25 or so characters a day in about 1 hour's worth of study. It's pretty amazing. I have learned over 3000 characters in the span of about 1/2 a year with this method, with retention rates of about 93-94% during my reviews. I can't speak highly enough for how well this works.

    3. Re:Heisig's technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I second Heisig's kanji/hanzi memorization method, which I found to be by far the most effective, although it was ~15 years ago now that I used it and can't really compare to what's available today.

      One caveat, though, is that you need to commit to going all the way to the end if you start with his system -- the characters need to learned in a certain (partial) order, but that order is driven by shapes/character containment and has absolutely nothing to do with frequency of use. In fact, if there's a correlation at all it's the opposite -- many of the first few hundred characters you'll learn are vanishingly rare in practice but happen to appear as components of more common characters you learn later.

      Also, about mnemonics in general, I agree that for some kinds of memorization (and Chinese characters fall into this bucket) they are extremely useful, but it's not because they help you internalize the thing you're memorizing (only practice will do that) -- it's because they allow you to avoid breaking your "flow" by having to interrupt what you're reading and look something up in a dictionary. (You can maybe think of items you just plain know as "hardwired", items you know via of mnemonics as "in cache memory" and items you don't know as "on disk".)

    4. Re:Heisig's technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mmmm, pita.

    5. Re:Heisig's technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1 on the recommendations for Anki, and Heisig's Remembering the Kanji (Japanese) / Remembering the Hanzi (Chinese).

      I'd just like to add the awesome site that is Reviewing the Kanji.

    6. Re:Heisig's technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't recommend Heisig enough. Using his method I learned all the kanji in a little over 2 months. It's the only way to learn them and not forget, ever.

    7. Re:Heisig's technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Much as I love the free stuff, I do have to also put in a plug for www.zhongwen.com.

      If you dont mind forking out a little cash, the author there has put together a fascinating "genealogy" of Chinese characters. It helps a lot with memory if you can get some idea of the relationships between families of characters.

      Back to the semi-free stuff out there, check out www.flashcardexchange.com. It has a web interface, and also has a huge and growing database of flashcard sets that loads of people (includeing me) have contributed. You only pay if you want advanced features like sound & motion & Laetner drill algorithms.

    8. Re:Heisig's technique by cababunga · · Score: 1

      Speaking of these books, one should mention that there are free PDF samples provided by authors (there are two authors for the Remembering Hanzi books: James W. Heisig and Timothy W. Richardson). The samples include first 60 pages of the books, which is all introductory material and first 108 characters. Although not everyone likes this approach, most people, including myself, find the books of a great use. http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RH/RH%20Simplified-sample.pdf http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RH/RK%20Traditional-sample.pdf http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/Remembering%20Hanzi%201.htm

    9. Re:Heisig's technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That book is a scam. Learning the radicals will give you the same results only it is actually correct.

      Not that it really helps. I know ~3000 characters and I still have to study hard for the educated native level Kanji test which only requires about 2000. This is because remembering a Kanji, even being able to write it, is worth shit, really. And I know the ~3000 characters because I know words that use them. A Heisig student taking that test would make for fun reality TV.
      If you don't know the word, knowing the letters needed to spell it won't help.

      Its like saying: "hey I know all characters [A-Z][a-z] now I am ready to go to the Basque Country and fuck the hot Basque girls!"

    10. Re:Heisig's technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://kanji.koohii.com/

      You should have linked to Koohii when you mentioned Heisig's books as the site allows people to post their own stories for the character's, which one might find easier to remember than the ones Heisig builds up.

    11. Re:Heisig's technique by kubitus · · Score: 1

      Thanks a lot!

  20. smart.fm's lists are good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For Japanese smart.fm's "Japanese Core 2000" series really helped me. http://smart.fm/goals/19053

    They seem to have some lessons for Chinese characters too, so it's worth having a look.

  21. You're doing it wrong, son. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    > My kids are learning Chinese in school.

    Quite the forward thinker, huh?

    > While the grammar is drop-dead simple, writing is a challenge since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters.

    You're doing it wrong, as far as I understand. Sound is very much important for anglophones; not so in other languages. Even in my own related Portuguese, the written form is fundamental to recognize etimology. I've found there's another mindset when dealing with some oriental languages. This is a problem in itself, because a few people seems to have a hard time at talking... from the usage of the word "dumb", it seems not being able to talk is not highly regarded among you.

    Such is the importance of sound to you... Hence confusions about "their" and "there", "you're" and "your", "its" and "it's" etc.

    Other cultures view refraining from speaking in a better light. "Uneventful is noble", a Japanese saying... or so I've read.

    > I would like to know if there good techniques (using technology or not) to help memorize large amount of information, especially Chinese characters.

    From what I've been shown regarding Kanji and Chinese ideograms, you can divide an ideogram in subparts, each with its meaning and then recall what their reunion would mean.

    I can even give a simple example. Mind you, I can't speak neither Japanese nor Chinese. (Li, if you ever reads this, thanks... I hope you're well)

    Up:

    Down:

    Stop: (i.e., cannot go up nor down)

    > Most of the stuff I googled only helps on learning speaking.

    I'd suggest it's a good starting point, as spoken Chinese may be orders of magnitude easier than written... After you get the basics of speaking and hearing, maybe writing could be easier... after all, this is how children start.

    1. Re:You're doing it wrong, son. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, Slashdot simply swallowed the ideograms. This software is so advanced, ain't it?

      Anyway, go to Google Translate (English to Chinese), enter Up, Down and "Jammed" to see what I mean.

      [ The time limit imposed between posts is a nuisance in the present case ]

    2. Re:You're doing it wrong, son. by NotesSensei · · Score: 1

      > Quite the forward thinker, huh? Nope. Just currently living in Asia and having Chinese in-laws. The kids are aiming at university level Chinese within 5 years. Part of "mother-tongue" lessons which are mandatory in their school (If it would be father-tongue they would learn German :-) )

    3. Re:You're doing it wrong, son. by xandroid · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of Chinese characters do not have meanings which can be as easily derived from the character's parts. However, knowing the meaning and pronunciation of the parts of a character does often make remembering it easier.

      --
      $ echo "ceci n'est pas une pipe" | sed -Ee 's/(eci n|pas )//g'
  22. chinese/japanese are visual concepts, not sounds.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    make your own flashcards and you learn to write the character at the same time that you are learning to read it and say it. Use them often and practice memorization. I studied Japanese for years and that helped me a lot. The characters are complete concepts that are added together to modify each other and the whole thing is visual, not phonetic. Even though Japanese has hiragana and katakana they are not an alphabet, they are patch sounds to blend characters or to be used as furigana to show how to read difficult readings of characters.

    Chinese of course has no need for hiragana and katakana and the modern mainland chinese has simplified characters that are easier to draw.

  23. Use Colors + components + Anki by Murmel84 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I started studying Chinese in September too and I'm trying a lot of techniques to memorize it quickly and efficiently.

    As others have already mentioned, Anki (http://ichi2.net/anki/) is the way to go for memorizing vocabulary, as it uses a psychological algorithm that helps you repeating things as often as you need to. If you then install the pinyin toolkit plugin for learning chinese it's the best thing to learn chinese vocabulary as it imports all your translations, pinyin and even sounds automatically when you just enter the Hanzi.

    This pinyin toolkit also uses a nice colour system for the tones. Basically, every character is displayed in a color depending on its tone: red = first tone orange = second tone green = third tone blue = fourth tone black = no tone

    You can go even further and WRITE the characters in those colors when practicing. The tones of each character will stay in your memory WAY better!

    Another tip when trying to memorize chinese characters: try to grasp the meaning of their components and learning to read and write them will be way more easy. You can use sites like nciku.com or archchinese.com where characters are split up in their components. However, you won't find everything there. There's also an extremely good book called "Learning Chinese Characters" (http://www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chinese-Characters-Revolutionary/dp/080483816X/) - it teaches you the 800 most common chinese characters by telling you everything about their components and even giving you stories to remember the components of each character. It's by far the best book I've found for learning how to write chinese.

  24. From personal experience by aBaldrich · · Score: 1

    Hi, i'm 18, and I can speak and write in 5 languages.
    I tried to memorize 5-8 words every day, make sentences using those words, etc. I imagine the most difficult part is learning 5000+ symbols, well, when I learned the Cyrillic and Greek alphabets I memorized each letter by writing it and, at the same time, pronouncing it. It doesn't seem serious, but it helps a lot.

    --
    In soviet russia the government regulates the companies.
  25. Flash cards by il+dus · · Score: 1

    The low-tech kind. When learning Russian I was able to memorize a new wordlist (40-50 words) in 10-20 minutes after having written them all out on flash cards. The writing itself was a major part of the learning process. As for retention once learned, a lot of practice is really the only way. Reading out loud is actually fairly helpful, and conversation is the very best.

    --
    "I am Dr. Freud, but you may call me.siggy."
  26. Learn Chinese... by playing an MMO by BertieBaggio · · Score: 1

    This MMO was the subject of a previous /. story, and since others have commented on other useful techniques, I'll leave you with this:

    Zon (http://www.massively.com/2008/06/04/zon-the-mmo-that-teaches-you-to-speak-chinese/)

    I've also seen it said (in a comment on here perhaps?) that it is preferable not to use pinyin romanisation as that doesn't help as much with making the correct sounds. Whatever it was pointed at GR as an alternative. Don't take that as gospel though as I may have no idea what I'm talking about!

    --
    If all you have is a grenade, pretty soon every problem looks like a foxhole -- MightyYar
    1. Re:Learn Chinese... by playing an MMO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Totally disagree about pinyin. It's widely used in China and elsewhere, and has a perfect 1:1 mapping with the sounds in the language. The only disadvantage is that some of the letters are pronounced differently to how they are in English, but French and Spanish have exactly the same "problem" and you don't see people making their own spelling systems for those.

  27. Write and write again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Write the characters as you review. The motion builds muscle memory so you don't have to think

    I use flash cards with definition and/or pronunciation on one side and the character on the other. I write the character on a practice sheet (basically, a page of squares large enough to fit one character) and if I miswrite even one stroke, I count it as incorrect and practice it correctively several times before returning the card to the stack.

    Others have said flash cards, in particular Anki, which I use. It's good for maintaining your vocabulary.
    Also, zhongwen.com lists characters broken down by constituent parts (not merely radicals). If you need more, Wenlin (www.wenlin.com) is an ugly kludge of a program, but the content is well worth the investment.

  28. One technique that might be useful... by thewils · · Score: 1

    I've been picking up some Japanese recently, via podcasts, torrented mp3s and the like but learning Kanji above Grade 1 isn't going too well. This is largely because I never get to use it in real life. My suggestion to pick up Kanki/Chinese Characters is to associate the symbol with the actual object. For instance, to learn the Kanji for "shoe" write the Kanji on a sticker and put it in your shoe, or all your shoes. That way, every time you put your shoe on, you will be reminded of the Kanji. Do this for everything around the house and pretty soon you will build up a healthy knowledge of Kanji for everyday objects. Once you can write the Kanji from memory, you can remove it from it's associated object.

    --
    Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
  29. structure of characters by bcrowell · · Score: 1

    The complicated-looking characters are actually built out of smaller, standardized parts. If your kids want to be able to look up characters in a dictionary, they're going to have to learn to recognize the more common Kangxi radicals anyway. The 7 most common radicals are used in about 10,000 characters. Most characters are formed by combining a semantic part with a phonetic part. Once you learn a bunch of these, it makes it much easier to remember words made out of them. Lots of words are actually compounds of characters, e.g., "computer" is "electric brain." Once you know "electric" and "brain," it's not particularly hard to remember the two-character compound.

    It sounds like in the short term your kids are having an easier time with the spoken language than with the writing system. My experience in terms of long-term recall is exactly the opposite. I took a Chinese class 13 years ago, and have forgotten the vast majority of what I learned. Of the part I do remember, the easiest to remember is characters. The part I really can't remember at all anymore is what tones the words are. E.g., I can remember that "red" is "hua," but I can't remember which tone that "hua" is. Because of that, I have no chance at all of being able to speak and be understood.

    1. Re:structure of characters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is one thing that most Chinese teachers, usually being native speakers, don't do and that is teaching an indepth knowledge of radicals.

      Firstly, there are links between the radical, the meaning of the word and, in some cases, it's pronunciation (as many have already stated). For example a character with the hand radical has something to do with the hand such as waving, digging, punching, holding, grabbing, etc.

      Another thing to remember is that many radicals may have 2 or even more written variants. The written form usually depends on where it lies within the actual character itself, mainly the left or the bottom. This gives a clue to the meaning of the character. The written variants is something that is rarely taught, maybe because Chinese teachers see this as being obvious and thus no need to teach it. While this may be true for Asian students learning Chinese, it's not for Westerners.

      By remembering how to write and read Chinese characters in this way, I found that it is actually easier to learn traditional Chinese than it is to learn simplified.

      The link to the Wikipedia on Kangxi radicals provided by the parent is a good start but appears to have some errors or misleading information. For example, number 9 in the table is man and the meaning should be taken as human, not man and woman (ie. it's non-gender specific) and number 164, wine, is jiu (3rd tone), not you (3rd tone) as stated.

      Another good website is www.zhongwen.com

  30. Use it or lose it by Colin+Smith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Import Chinese comic books.

    The language is simplified. They're designed for kids and they're designed to entertain, though you'll be missing many of the cultural references.

    There is absolutely no point trying to memorize something if you don't use it. It's like trying to hold water in your hands, it'll dribble away in weeks if not months.

    Trying to learn any language without being immersed in the culture is extremely difficult. I reckon current language teaching methods are bizarre; defining grammar, memorizing words. No native speaker learns language that way. Learn by example and your brain will build the grammar and vocabulary as it goes. TV/Radio, newspapers, web sites all help and can be downloaded usually. Better, move to China.

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:Use it or lose it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Learning grammar and memorizing vocabulary are high-level techniques that only experienced people can perform. Native speakers take many years to master their languages while working at it nearly full time, have a high reward when they do, and are surrounded by willing teachers. These last two conditions can sort of be recreated by immersion, but only partially.

    2. Re:Use it or lose it by Faerunner · · Score: 1

      Reading and partaking of other media in Chinese (or any other language you decide to learn) is a great idea. Seconding the movies, radio and newspapers. Also, have them write. Writing in another language is really tough, because it not only requires the learner to come up with the right vocabulary but to put it down on paper, which gives you more practice not only remembering but producing the proper spellings, accents, etc (and in this case, remembering and producing the correct symbols).

  31. Two cents from a native Chinese by weibin · · Score: 0

    Disclaimer, I am not a teacher, I once explained this to a co-worker.

    Instead of 26 alphabets, you have several hundreds of basic characters that represent BOTH meaning and sound. They are simple and often pictorial, but you do have to memorize their sounds (in Mandarin or Cantonese or other dialects :-).

    Once you pass that, more complicated characters can be composed. Often one part gives the basic sound, while the other half extends the meaning. Together they form a new character of which the sound and meaning that you can guess or infer.

    Figuring out the "magic" of how these compositions work can be entertaining and often leads to "ah-huh!" moments. Try to make it fun for your kid (and you), in a detective story/game sort of way. You'll often guess the sound wrong or fail to infer a new meaning, but your kid (who likely outplays you in Mr. Potato Head :-) has far better imagination and would be more often right than you do. So play it like a puzzle, only it is also good practice for you both.

    Good luck,

  32. Tony Buzan and Daniel Tennet Memetic techniques by lkcl · · Score: 2, Interesting

    one of the key reasons why the chinese don't need a large intelligence agency is because their entire population is actually their intelligence agency, having been trained from a very young age to memorise vast amounts of information - for example, the 10,000 or so chinese characters.

    tony buzan's memetic learning techniques were the first popularly re-published discovery of the greek "mnemonic" memorisation techniques, and he adapted them to get you to focus on the use of the five senses and "familiar" or powerful emotive things, such as "home" or "naked person" or "funny picture" as "hooks" on which to hang the sequence to memorise.

    the use of such "hooks" was well-known in medieval times. if you look closely at the top and bottom of the bayeux tapestry, there's a continuous but very small row of naked people in various sexual poses and performing various acts. the idea is that if you want to memorise the battle of hastings, and what happened, you get yourself all worked up "wha-heey!!" and _then_ you look at the pictures of the battle, and the pictures sink in.

    daniel tennet, aka "brainman" has also developed a similar sort of technique, focussing specifically on helping people to memorise languages. daniel is approaching this from a different angle from tony buzan, however: optimising the actual language learning process.

    tony's technique of "hooking" first gets you to associate numbers with familiar or exciting things. for example, the number 1 could be "red post box". the number 2 looks like a swan. 4 a sail-boat etc. etc. but you can equally as well use what works best for you (kinesthetics) - smells, movements, touch etc. it's _entirely_ up to you to use the right "hooks" which are appropriate for _you_.

    so, you now have your "hooks". to memorise things by numbers, let's say the number sequence 412, you imagine a sail-boat on a lake, and it goes past a red postbox, and there's a huuuge white swan sitting on top of it. voila, you have just memorised the sequence 412. this technique of picture/thought association gives you the ability to memorise absolutely huge sequences which you otherwise thought you were incapable of.

    so, if you were to use tony's technique, you would look at the character in one of two ways:

    1) see what the picture reminds you of (for example, tree is blindingly obvious: it looks like a tree) and then "hook" that in, in some imaginative way, with the actual object (as other people have suggested here)

    2) decompile the character by brush-strokes, both the sequence of the strokes (which is critically important for chinese calligraphy) and the direction, length and position, and assign each stroke's direction and position a numerical (or other sequence). you then cross-reference that numerical sequence against the "hooks". you also cross-reference the actual meaning at the beginning of the sequence, again in some imaginative way.

    by recalling the pictures / hooks, one after the other, you can turn them back into numbers. you then turn the numbers back into brush strokes: voila, you have your chinese character.

    it's a lot of initial work, setting up the "hooks" that are appropriate and creating the mnemonic interpretation, but if you're serious, you'll do it.

    all that having been said: it would be much much easier to do sanskrit. if you look closely at the written form of sanskrit, you'll notice that the actual written language - the brush strokes - are a _phonetic key_ to the pronounciation! a vertical line means "plosive" (as in - you're going to close your mouth in some fashion). a horizontal line means "make your voice-box resonate". a slash on top going top-left to bottom-right means "close mouth" and a slash on top going bottom-left to top-right means "open mouth", thus you get "taaah" and "aaahht" respectively when combined with the horizontal and vertical lines. various curly-bits mean "do different things with tongue" and thus you get "kuhh", "puhh", "tuhh", "buhh" or "aabh", "aaakh", "aahhp" if the dia

    1. Re:Tony Buzan and Daniel Tennet Memetic techniques by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      Please mod parent +1

      Very insighful, extremely informative !!

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    2. Re:Tony Buzan and Daniel Tennet Memetic techniques by nerdyalien · · Score: 1

      mod parent up!

      (Pardon me for going bit off-topic here, but I think this is the perfect place to share my experience)

      one of the key reasons why the chinese don't need a large intelligence agency is because their entire population is actually their intelligence agency, having been trained from a very young age to memorise vast amounts of information - for example, the 10,000 or so chinese characters.

      Something I noticed first hand. I have taught maths and programming to Chinese or Chinese-decent students. I observed that a sizeable portion of them struggling to cope up with logical/methodical flow in approaching problems in those subjects. I hardly saw any ingenuity in terms of solutions, most of them are slapdash jobs. However, they ace the final paper by simply memorizing the past paper solutions and vomiting them on the examination hour.

      Another experience from my college years, I usually performed well in any subject that needs intense logical thinking and methodical approach (like programming, digital logic etc). But my Chinese peers absolutely hated them. However, they were very good at subjects with barrage of details that one requires to memorize in order to answer the final paper. Furthermore, if there was a change of the format, usually I score better than them in the final examination (as their memorizing is obsolete for the new paper format).

      My native language is an Indo-Aryan language (I am from South Asia BTW) and I was using it as my primary language for 18 years. It has about 20 vowels, 36 consonants and many more (if interested, please refer here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinhala_script). However, most of them are inter-related i.e. slight variation of another. Hence it is easy to remember in terms of 'relationships'. Grammar is diabolical (but not as German or Russian)... still it is manageable if you memorize the logical flow.

      So maybe this is why I tend to be good at logics better than memorizing stuff.

      (Going back to the topic....)

      In my opinion, nothing can beat 'being in an environment where majority speaks the target language'. Because you have no option but to speak in the target language to get things done.

      I was horrible at communicating in English about 8 years ago (maybe still I am). But then I moved out of my home town, into an environment where majority speaks English (yep.. it was college). So I had no option but to speak in English. I remember how difficult it was when I first went to see the doctor (in the new country) after a bad food poisoning. Step-by-step, along the way I learnt how to communicate properly in English.

      Quite luckily, there were good instructors (as in, they don't speak slang versions of English) at the language unit in my college. I sought their help quite badly at the early stages, until the point I can manage my self.

      The other trick is, watching movies with subtitles. I know this sounds silly. But I did it a lot in the early days, so I can catch proper expressions. (as for Chinese/Japanese, Anime is a good choice.. then again, most DVDs provide Chinese translation I believe).

      Maybe now I can manage to speak in a neutral accent and listen without a problem. But still, I am quite bad at writing. However, I did TOEFL last August and posted 107/120. Not bad compared to 8 years ago, where I passed it marginally.

      Now I am thinking of taking up French or German (I wish to work/travel in EU). But still, I'm wondering whether I have to invest more time on improving my English skills. What do you think?

  33. about 1/3 phonetic by peter303 · · Score: 1

    The non-radical part is often pronounced the same in multiple characters it appears, particularly for newer words or characters. This happened in older times, too. But pronunciations diverged with time, particularly after the Mongols mangled the northern dialect. I can often guess the pronunciation of character I havent seen.
    Unfortunately, I dont know if there a way to teach this. You just observe the sound patterns as you learn characters.

  34. Language-specific apps by Aladrin · · Score: 1

    Someone above recommended Remembering The Kanji (and it's Chinese version, Remembering the Hanzi), so I'm going to leave that alone.

    ReadTheKanji.com is a -great- site for learning to read Japanese words. It is the single best thing to help me read Japanese that I've found, and I've spent a lot of time looking. I even thought about writing my own version, but other than some fairly minor features that I'm not ready for yet, I can't improve on it.

    I don't think anything like it exists for Chinese, but if it did, that would be my recommendation.

    This is more of a long-term thing, though... If you expect them to learn particular characters -right now- instead of learning them more naturally over time, then a flashcard program like Anki is probably the way to go.

    --
    "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
  35. Do what works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Try Tuttle's "Learning Chinese Characters" by Alison and Laurence Matthews. Very good imagination-driven way to memorize the characters. Depending on the age of your children, you might have to moderate between them and the book. Worst case, you tell them the memorizing stories yourself.

    Nothing can spare you rote repetition of writing the characters. Methods like the above will improve efficiency a lot, but there is actually a "kinesthetical" or "feeling" dimension to Chinese characters that can only be learned by writing them over and over again. This feeling for the strokes helps in distinguishing the characters and reproducing them from your mind.

    Also, have your children teach you. Studies show this improves their learning a lot.

    Have your children repeat all the characters they know regularly. In Chinese you learn one new word and forget two old ones. Repetition is the only way out.

    Having said all that, a classroom centered curriculum will tend to force students on the new material in order to pass the test. Passing tests has always priority over long term memorization, but once this basic need is met, spend as much time on repetition as possible.

    There is also an excellent Nintendo DS game "My Chinese Coach", which covers at least 1000 words. Not good at adapting to different learning curriculums, but very good for repetition and deepening Chinese language skills, both characters and pronounciation.

  36. characters are made of sub-parts by peter303 · · Score: 1

    And not just the radical (dictionary lookup) part. I wish all my teachers had named the parts from the start. But you gradually learn their names. Then you sort of remember character X is made up of the water and water and po-sounding part and so on.
    After a while you dont think of parts, but the "gestalt" or entirety. Same thing happens in English reading. You see the whole word, its length, the ascending and descending parts, the first and final letters. Theres a trick text going around where the interior letters in English words are scrambled and its fairly easy to learn because you see the whole word instead of each letter after a few years of reading.

  37. The only way to learn is to use it. by Frater+219 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Having studied eight foreign languages (French, Spanish, German, Latin, Ancient Greek, Russian, Japanese, and Finnish) in my life, and after talking this theory over with friends who have attained fluency in some really different languages (e.g. Spanish and Bahasa Melayu), I feel safe in stating this here in pretty strong terms:

    The only way to learn a language is to use it.

    The only sort of "classroom" language class that works worth a damn is an immersion class, in which during the class period you do not speak any language other than the one you're studying. Even classroom instructions ("Open your book to page 23") are in the language, once you've learned numerals.

    The worst language classes I've taken have been ones in which the foreign language being studied is treated as a matter of abstract grammar and vocabulary to be memorized, not used ... and in which the teacher spends most of their time telling anecdotes in English about their experiences in the culture in question. I took two years of Russian in high school and a year of it in college -- and forgot more Russian than I learned in that last year, since the teacher spent the class time telling stories (in English!) about run-ins with the KGB, instead of helping us practice speaking and reading Russian.

    As regards Chinese: I've never studied Chinese, but I have studied Japanese including kanji, albeit only to the extent of a couple hundred kanji. The above applies fully to kanji, and I expect it applies to hanzi (Chinese characters) as well -- in order to learn them, you have to use them. Write them. Come up with silly sentences and write those. Don't just use flash cards and memorization; come up with things that you want to say in Chinese (even if just to be silly) and say those things with hanzi.

    The other half of the equation, of course, is to get someone who is fluent to respond to your crude childish attempts at speaking and writing. That's the point of a good language class: you get to make the sort of errors that a little kid makes, and they correct you. That method of language acquisition works for little kids, and it works for adults too if they're willing to be childish for a while.

  38. there are relationships by pydev · · Score: 1

    since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters

    Chinese characters aren't just pictures. Rather, they consist of about 200 radicals that are combined 2, 3, and 4 at a time. Many characters consist of just two parts: a sound indicator and a meaning indicator. There are plenty of books explaining this and using these relationships to help make Chinese characters easier to learn (look on Amazon).

  39. Repetition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I tried learning Hindi a few years ago, and apart from several Devanagari letters resembling English letters, such as the letters for ha, ra, and ka sounds, etc, the rest were completely foreign. However learning the alphabet was quite a bit simpler than learning the language, although Chinese characters might be different due to them not representing letters, or so I've heard. Anyways what I did to learn Devanagari was what presumably all school children do, ie fill page after page repeating the various letters-

    A,A,A,A,A,A,A,A,A...
    B,B,B,B,B,B,B,B,B,,,
    C,C,C,C,C,C,C,C,C... ...and so forth and so on.

  40. A system of pictograms works fine. by meburke · · Score: 1

    There is a great children's book, "The Chinese word for Horse and other stories" by John Lewis ( http://www.librarything.com/work/1564984 )which shows the structure of some (very few) Chinese characters. (Charles E. Tuttle co. published a small paperback that illustrated some basic Kanji in the same way, but I can't find my copy and I can't remember the name.) Look for a Chinese calligraphy guide that describes the meaning of the radicals as derived from pictures and you will be well on your way to binding the character with the meaning.

    It can take as much as 15 years for something to go from short-term memory to long-term memory. (See "Brain Rules" by John Medina http://brainrules.net/ ) A program that helps bridge the gap between initial learning and structured recall is SuperMemo http://www.supermemo.com/ . Ignore the cruddy website and look at the idea behind it and the history.

    Flashcards are good, too.

    Major practice for writing Chinese is provided in "copy sheets" which can be found at Chinese shops that sell calligraphy supplies and school supplies. They have blocks with faint outlines of Chinese characters and you practice your calligraphy by tracing the character with your brush tip.

    You might find "A practical English-Chinese Pronouncing Dictionary" by Janey Chen http://www.amazon.com/Practical-English-Chinese-Pronouncing-Dictionary-Language/dp/0804818770 . This book give an International Phonetics pronunciation (both Mandarin and Cantonese) next to the Chinese words. This is VERY important: One slight change in sound utterance and you've said something different from what you intended!

    When learning Chinese, learn some patterns. I suggest "Chiang's Practical Chinese Language Patterns" http://www.amazon.com/Chiangs-Practical-Language-Patterns-Self-Learners/dp/9579727236 , "Practical Chinese Reader" (and the associated workbooks) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0887271871/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=9579727236&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=14FXWRGNRW203JQ3QYZC , and an advanced monograph: http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED280308&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED280308 .

    Another resource, associating the sound with the character by typing it, can be found here: http://vpc-mandarin.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-and-why-to-write-chinese-by-typing.html

    My ex-girlfriend and I used to watch a lot of Chinese movies together with the captioning on. The right channel would be Cantonese and the left channel would be Mandarin and the characters would change color as the actors pronounced them. You can find a switch to change the audio channel in most Chinese video stores. This is a good way to associate the sound visually with the language. Cartoons are great for kids and beginning adults because the language is syntactically correct but not too complicated. (Watch out though!; Jackie Chan has lousy Mandarin pronunciation and Zhang Ziyi has lousy Cantonese pronunciation.)

    Side note: Japanese Kanji are derived from Chinese characters, b

    --
    "The mind works quicker than you think!"
  41. sounds familiar by Punto · · Score: 5, Funny

    since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters

    so it's sort of like in English then?

    --

    --
    Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!

    1. Re:sounds familiar by Lars512 · · Score: 2, Informative

      since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters

      so it's sort of like in English then?

      You're right on the money. They call the complexity of a writing system's form-sound relationship orthographic depth. English is a deep language, Chinese is deeper, Japanese is deeper still. Spanish on the other hand is orthographically shallow. So it's considered easier to learn to read and write in Spanish, than English, in English than Chinese, in Chinese than Japanese.

    2. Re:sounds familiar by Punto · · Score: 1

      that's pretty interesting. I'd guess that the phonetic part of japanese (hiragana & katakana) is probably even shallower than spanish tho.

      --

      --
      Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!

    3. Re:sounds familiar by Lars512 · · Score: 1

      that's pretty interesting. I'd guess that the phonetic part of japanese (hiragana & katakana) is probably even shallower than spanish tho.

      Exactly. It's only the kanji script which makes the Japanese writing system as a whole deep. You take an already deep writing system from one language (Chinese), smush it over the top of an existing spoken language (native Japanese), salt it by borrowing pronunciations from the first language during three or four historic periods (i.e. different dialects), and you get a very weak relationship between the sounds you're saying and the glyphs you're writing, at least compared to other languages.

      Hey, that's what makes Japanese fun =)

  42. Link: Review of Mnemosyne vs. Anki vs. SuperMemo by irchans · · Score: 1
    Review of Mnemosyne vs. Anki vs. SuperMemo

    Mnemosyne, Anki, and SuperMemo are great learning systems. Although they are frequently used for learning a language, they can be used to memorize almost anything. Mnemosyne is simple, free, and opensource. SuperMemo is complex. I have not used Anki.

  43. Refuse to Memorize by Simonetta · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Everyone here seems to be missing the point. We have advanced powerful cheap technology that is infinitely better than a human brain at memorizing things like character symbols and vocabulary.

        Don't memorize anything. Let the computer do the translating. That's what computers are good for. Humans are not good at this. That is why it is so hard. So do the obvious and let the computer do the translation.

        Got a little camera like the one in cell phones? Plug that camera into your hand held PC/internet/MP3player/telephone iTurd whatever. Point the camera at the kanji that you want translated. Press the button on the iTurd. Glance briefly at the little iTurd screen. Trust the iTurd ap program to have done an optical kanji recognition on the characters that it just imaged and is giving you the correct English/Finnish/Thai//Wolof/Whatever translation.

        Tech people seem to have this obsession with doing things that prove to themselves and other people that they are 'smart'. They believe that just because they have mastered technology, then they are under some obligation to themselves or their class that they must master all things that are difficult in order to recertify their 'smart person' credential. So they feel the need to memorize 5000 kanji, or play a difficult Bach invention on an aucostic piano, or run a marathon, or to get themselves killed attempting to 'win the hearts and minds' of people who have neither.

        Don't waste your time, and abandon your hang-ups about your smartness. Let the $200 computer master 50000 kanji, let your $50 MIDI synth play Bach, let your car take 20 miles in comfort, and let the expendable fools go to the other side of the world and get killed.

        Your 'smartness' is certified by your unwillingness to do these things yourself, the hard and dumb way.

        I studied Japanese. It was about the time that personal computers were just beginning in 1979. The first time that I saw an optical-character wand read digits (in 1981) I knew that there was NO FUCKING WAY that I was going to spend 10000 hours committing 10000 kanji to memory. That's what computers do. I'm a better person because I didn't do it.

        Please spare me the horseshit about how the discipline of memorizing and learning makes a better person and builds character. Look at those assholes who spend their life memorizing the Quran, and then go blow up a bus or day-care center.

        Memorization lost its validity the day that computers started selling for $50. And that was a long time ago. So what that I can't pick up a Japanese newspaper and know what it says just by looking at it! I've got a $100 1GigaHertz 400MegaFlop microPC in my hand that does it just as well.

        And I spent the 10000 hours smoking weed and fucking beautiful girls instead of memorizing kanji. Life is a series of difficult choices and hard trade-offs.

    1. Re:Refuse to Memorize by fruitbane · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I feel like your post might be sarcastic, but I don't think it is. If it is you suck at sarcasm, sorry.

      Actually, computers are rather bad at language translation. Handwritten and printed characters are presented with such stylistic variation that even the simplest aspect, optical recognition, is very difficult. Hell, even high-grade OCR software for roman character sets is still imperfect. And then there's translation. Some characters have both multiple meanings and multiple pronunciations, most of which is dependent upon context. Computers don't grok context well since it relies a lot on complex relationships concerning meaning.

      So yeah, humans are actually really good at language and the memorization that goes with it, especially in the ways that the computer is not good at it. Nothing wrong with using a digital pocket dictionary or phone app that's a dictionary as an aid, but no practical computer can replace the wonder that is the human mind when it comes to language-related tasks.

    2. Re:Refuse to Memorize by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Someone sure is bitter.

      You know how much more money you can make being bilingual, especially in languages from radically different parts of the world?

      Most people who are smart don't do things to make other people think they're smart. They do them because they're fun, interesting, challenging, career-building, and/or personally fulfilling. They get the same joy out of it that you do fucking beautiful girls while stoned out of your mind.

      The translating computer you have? Built by smart people who didn't waste their lives wasted and in bed.

    3. Re:Refuse to Memorize by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, while we're at it why not drop all math classes from school? We don't need it anymore the computers can do it for us!

      Fucking halfwit

    4. Re:Refuse to Memorize by Simonetta · · Score: 1

      Actually, computers are rather bad at language translation.

          I believe that you mean that software is rather bad at translation, computers are good at memorization. Using computers to handle the memorization frees us to explore software and human intelligence to do translation without the burden of memorization.

          I use a five-point scale for machine translation. Level one is individual words and kanji. Level two is phrases and sentences. Level three is paragraphs and paragraph clusters, like this message. Level four is newspaper level and films. Level five is literature and diplomacy. Each level would require (I assume) one to two orders of magnitude of computing power to attain from the previous level. Current machine language translation that is freely available (from web sources like Google and www.systranet.com) operates current between levels one and two. Good software could bring us to between levels four and five with existing microprocessors.

          Language translation progress can be likened to Columbus' being halfway across the Atlantic. We know exactly what we're looking for, and we firmly believe that it is obtainable and profitable. We just don't know exactly where we are or how long it will take to get where we want to be.

          Transferring memorization to machines would free human intelligence to make vast advances in linguistics. By analyzing translation loops (going from a primary language to a second language and then translating the results back to the primary language) we can find why some software algorithms work in some languages and others fail. Why would Chomsky-based software translate "out of sight, out of mind" to "invisible idiot" and Sapir-based algorithms return nonsense when looping from English to Mandarin but not when looping from Mardarin to Mayan?

          This entire field is wide open. Linguistic software is the 'killer ap' of the 21st century in the way that 'office equipment' transformation (spreadsheets, word processors, etc...) were the great money maker of the first generation of computers. ..but no practical computer can replace the wonder that is the human mind when it comes to language-related tasks.

          No disrespect or sarcasm intended, but IMHO that statement is like saying that no calculator can bring the mental satisfaction that comes from successfully multiplying two ten-digit numbers in Middle school arithmetic class.

    5. Re:Refuse to Memorize by NotesSensei · · Score: 1

      Doesn't work when you want to date a Chinese girl and whisper sweet or nutty things in her ear.

    6. Re:Refuse to Memorize by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      You've missed the point, I think. In particular:

      that statement is like saying that no calculator can bring the mental satisfaction that comes from successfully multiplying two ten-digit numbers in Middle school arithmetic class.

      If computers couldn't multiply at that point, it'd be a valid analogy. That statement about the "wonder of the human mind" wasn't about "mental satisfaction", it was about the fact that right now, the human mind can do translation much more accurately than computers are, and you wouldn't trust a computer to do that job.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    7. Re:Refuse to Memorize by Simonetta · · Score: 1

      No two languages can be more different than English and Lao. Mastering both is serious intellectual accomplishment.

      But here in Beaverton Oregon it is the standard practice of companies that operate in the vast Southeast Asian community to pay employees fifty cents an hour more if they are fluent in both English and one or more Southeast Asian languages.

      Yes, I do know how much more money you can make by being bilingual in radically different languages. You make 50 cents an hour more than the people who only know English.

      I'm not bitter, I'm realistic about the value of spending 10000 hours mastering a difficult language.

      The translating computer you have? Built by smart people who didn't waste their lives wasted and in bed.
      Every great scientific advance is made by smart people who waste their lives getting high and fucking. Smarter people use these technological advances in order to live as well as 'the smart people' and enjoy getting high and fucking while the 'smart people' toil in the lab. Welcome to real world.

    8. Re:Refuse to Memorize by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      So let's see:

      Don't memorize anything.

      Flawed in many ways.

      First and foremost, you can't synthesize facts you don't know. As an example, someone recently hired me to sort through five thousand bounced emails and figure out how to turn them into a spreadsheet containing the actual failed email addresses.

      In order to do this, I had him put it on an IMAP server (the last time he asked me to do this, it was already). I then connected to it with a Ruby script using an IMAP library, parsed the relevant messages (moving each message I successfully parsed to a different IMAP folder), refining my algorithm to parse the rest, and at each step, dumping the results to a CSV file (trivially easy to generate) which I knew he could open in Excel.

      At the very least, I had to understand what IMAP is, and where it fits into the picture. Whenever someone gives me a similar problem, my first thought now is, "If I give you access to an IMAP server, you can click+drag all the email out of wherever it is and onto this common server that I can access from wherever I am. It's a stupidly simple and portable way for us to deal with whole folders worth of email."

      Now, it's true that if I didn't know it was called IMAP, I could probably Google for something like "Email protocols", read up on Wikipedia, and figure out which one I was talking about. But what if I didn't remember such a thing existed? I might have been digging through whatever format Thunderbird uses for days -- I can't think of a reasonable way I would discover IMAP for this purpose, if I hadn't already been exposed to it in some other way.

      There's also CSV. Again, without knowing about CSV, what would I Google? "How to get stuff into Excel"? At best, I might end up with some VBA crap, meaning I'd have to write a program either in VBA or somehow talking to VBA, which also understood the Thunderbird email format. Ugh. Instead, it was simple -- output CSV, attach it, email it.

      Then I had to remember that CSV has that weird double-quotation-mark escaping rule. I also remembered that libraries exist -- which also saved me from dealing with IMAP. Oh, and I had to remember that a good way to get libraries for Ruby (my language of choice) is Rubygems. I suppose I could've avoided memorizing "sudo gem install __", but knowing it offhand saves a lot of time.

      Had I not remembered about libraries, I might not even have considered IMAP, and I might've badly mangled the CSV.

      I also had to remember both that regular expressions exist, and how to use them. Most of the messages were easy enough to read as a multipart message, pulling the "to" field off the envelope (two more concepts I had to be familiar with; the fact that messages with attachments are called "multipart" and how multipart email works...)

      Oh, and it also helped to know other assorted things -- like remembering how to add a user to my IMAP server, and how to create a secure connection between that and his Thunderbird (ended up just re-opening the VPN I set up years earlier -- but I had to remember how to enable it...)

      And so on.

      And this was a tiny, tiny project. Got it done in less than four hours, and that's dealing with a ton of weird permutations of possible emails, and a weird issue with his IMAP server.

      Now imagine what it's like working on an actual full-blown software product.

      Let the computer do the translating.

      Do not want. All your base are belong to us.

      You claim translation will eventually be good. Fine, but right now, it sucks, and it's going to continue to suck long after the original poster has learned whatever language they needed -- and there's still nuances of culture that you actually have to experience.

      Got a little camera like the one in cell phones? Plug that camera into your hand held PC/internet/MP3player/telephone iTurd whatever. Point the camera at the kanji that you want translated. Press the button on the

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    9. Re:Refuse to Memorize by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      Exactly this. There is no practical computing device right now that can translate for shit. Simonetta is making lots of assumptions about what the computing power of today can actually do for us. The truth is, most software is wholly incapable of properly tapping that power, and I'm not certain we're anywhere close to devising translation software to truly be able to perform comparably to the human mind on language-related tasks. Again, the human mind is very well suited to language processing, and computers are just general purpose calculating machines. Perhaps when translation software is MUCH more robust (don't expect it within another decade at least) and capable of operating on discrete, portable devices (not just your desktop PC at home - think smart phones) this issue will be worth revisiting. But for now and the immediate, foreseeable future, we should not assume foreign languages are going to just translate themselves.

    10. Re:Refuse to Memorize by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Yes, I do know how much more money you can make by being bilingual in radically different languages. You make 50 cents an hour more than the people who only know English.

      50 cents an hour more... what is the base wage these people are making?

      Besides, learning that second language isn't about getting more pay for the same job. It's about opening doors into better paying, different jobs. In my field, knowledge of German, Russian, Mandarin, or Japanese opens up opportunities for positions that, depending on current position, may pay $20-30k more.

      Smarter people use these technological advances in order to live as well as 'the smart people' and enjoy getting high and fucking while the 'smart people' toil in the lab. Welcome to real world.

      I think if you're measuring wages in hourly increments, you're probably not getting on as well as you think.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  44. Hmmm - Re:A proven technique by beh · · Score: 4, Informative

    My girlfriends first comment: Yeah right, that helped...

    Almost 5 years together, and she still hardly speaks a word of German because I almost automatically switch over to English when talking to her... ...which may be good for my English, but certainly isn't for her German... :-/

    1. Re:Hmmm - Re:A proven technique by jabithew · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Entertainingly, I used to date a Chinese girl. We spoke German to each other in England (as well as English) because it was a common language that most other people around us didn't understand.

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    2. Re:Hmmm - Re:A proven technique by KlausBreuer · · Score: 1

      Wow, sounds familiar.

      My chinese ex-girlfriend (now wife ;) simply insists that I speak german to her. Every time I accidentially switch back into English, she'll remind me again. Works great - in addition to 8 months of very intensive german course training, of course...

      --
      Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
  45. As someone who learned at home as a kid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    can I say that the best way is to get a well illustrated book with not a lot of words. If you go in trying to memorize how the characters look like, you will not succeed. You should think that there is a Chinese-writing "personality" then think of the actual act of writing as an after thought. No Chinese/Korean/Japanese/etc person complains that there is a lot of strokes. Remember that even personal names (including mine) can have characters going up to 12 or more in stroke count, and children are expected to write them correctly.

    Not once above did I mention how the characters sounded...

  46. Simple Grammar? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "While the grammar is drop-dead simple". There is more to speaking the language well than just mastering its "simple" grammar. English suffers in many ways from the same issue. Many non-native speakers, particularly Germans, never learn learn the language properly once they in their on minds think that they have "mastered" the grammar. This is why Germans often come across as sounding like cavemen when speaking English.

    1. Re:Simple Grammar? by NotesSensei · · Score: 1

      I'm a native German speaker, so this sentence will sound like caveman speak: Compared to other languages Chinese grammar *is* simple: Want to form a question? Just take the statement and add a "ma" at the end, no shuffling of words in the sentence required. No past, no future, no conjunctive, no declination, no conjugation. The only "special" are the counting words (you say one *of* something, where the word for *of* varies with the thing you count). Expressing finer points required word selection not grammar lifting.

  47. My technique has been to read children's books by IDtheTarget · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've studied Spanish, Japanese, Arabic, and now Dari. The thing that has helped me the most has been to read children's books. I start out with the ones intended for kindergartners, and work my way up. Once I get halfway decent, I start on newspapers. These days you can find online newpapers in just about any language.

    I've also just found the International Children's Digital Library, which has digital children's books for many languages.

  48. professional linguist input by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    do not listen to anyone telling you that flash cards work. or rosetta stone. the likelihood of them working is very small

    having been around many other linguists, flash cards are only good for very, very short term memory. rosetta stone is a joke. border line scam really

    i'm not saying they never will work ... for some people they have, but, the number of people i know for whom flash cards and rosetta stone have worked is very, very small. about the same as the number of people i know that are referred to as "sponges" because they absorb language very easily

    unless you are a sponge, you will have to work hard at it. it's not easy, and good luck finding shortcuts

  49. Radicals and Common Characters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Even though the characters don't match up to sounds, every character has a certain number "radicals" (or simple characters) that come together to form other characters. So once you know the simple ones, you can derive the meaning of more complex ones.

    In Japanese, which uses the same Kanji, it's believe that you'll have 80% literacy if you learn the 500 most commonly used Kanji. After that it's a point of diminishing returns, so in Chinese you may want to do some research and find out which characters are used the most.

  50. online interactive flashcards! by Rikiji7 · · Score: 1

    This is for japanese characters, learn by playing and gaining EXP points like in a role play game!

    --
    slashwhat?
  51. Skritter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Chinese is an easy language once you get the characters sorted. Check out Skritter.com - been using it for a while now and am making masses of progress with it. Allows you to write words/characters, tells you if they're correct and reminds you if you get them wrong etc. Get a pen tablet too. Helps!

  52. Rote and Memorization ... by gordguide · · Score: 1

    When I was in college a second language was still mandatory to graduate. Basically this meant at the time that you have to pass one full class in a non-English language. Today I don't believe a second language is mandatory any more, and 20 years before I was in school, it was four years of a second language or no diploma, sonny.

    Anyway, I took French like I had for four years in High School (we could also take German at our school, it was a bit easier to learn).

    My buddy in College took Chinese. I asked him if he'd ever spoken it before ... not a word. Pure Rookie.

    He would come to lunch and start doing these chinese characters for his assignment. Pretty much every class you had to write out some phrase in Chinese characters, and hand it in ... this was for class credit.

    He had this book; look up something, write a stroke, look up some more, write another stroke, and so on. I asked if it was hard. Nope, but you pretty much have to look all this stuff up every time, he said. Too many to remember, although you eventually figure some of 'em out. Basically, you talked in class and wrote this assignment between classes. He said it was one of the easiest classes he ever took; everyone was getting 100% on the class assignments.

    I asked about the prof ... doesn't he want you to do any closed-book exams (without the "little book" handy)? Nope, he said. The prof uses the little book too, all during the class.

    Oh, I said.

    So, you need to repetitively write the stuff down. Eventually you learn a few of them, but it's not expected that you learn them all. Apparently no-one does.

  53. Chinese schoolchildren don't get much sleep. by __aahrlq8808 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Characters are a bitch, no way around it. Your kids will have to dedicate a large chunk of their time to learning reading and writing in Chinese. After that it's a continuous chore to retain that knowledge, especially in writing. After several years study, it can seem like you're set to the Sisyphean task of building a mountain out of sand--focus on building up the peak with new knowledge and other memories decay. That said, there are a billion plus living examples it can be done, and there are things that can certainly help. Just don't think it will be easy.

    With Chinese it's kind of hard to dive into new reading material. You either know a character already, or have no clue what it means or even how to pronounce it. That, and every character being unique, means reading/writing will be the limiting factor in your kids' language study and the most time-consuming to remedy. Below are some tips to break down the task.

    First thing is to learn the radicals. There's a limited number of them, and at least one in every character. Learn how to draw them because they're used over and over again. Learn their meanings too, because a character's meaning is usually at least loosely tied to its radical. Learning to identify the radicals also helps greatly in looking up unfamiliar words, as Chinese dictionaries are traditionally arranged first by radical, then by number of strokes.

    When you buy them a dictionary, get a beginner's dictionary so that they can have a larger font, usage examples and Pinyin pronunciation, all of which are sometimes missing in comprehensive dictionaries. A good choice that provides many example sentences and phrases would be The Starter Oxford Chinese Dictionary (sorry, Simplified version only). Get them a second dictionary later on if they can't find every word they need. For several reasons, I like Chinese Characters: A Genealogy and Dictionary. You can try out the online version of it at Zhongwen.com to see how it's organized. This is also the only dictionary that you can use by looking up any part of a character, not just the radical (which can sometimes be hard to identify).

    Many characters are comprised of radical-phonetic pairings, where the non-radical part hints at the sound of the word. They'll notice many more of these related character components at the intermediate level. However, given the ~4,000-year development of the written language, these links can often be tenuous. Thinking up elaborate stories trying to tie all the pieces of the character together can be quite useful. For instance, with the character for wrong () I remember it by thinking, "It would be wrong to bet money that sun sets underground." A little convoluted, but it was enough to jog my memory ever since. Useful as this strategy can be, it's just not always possible and you'll have to learn many words by rote memorization.

    For this I recommend writing. A lot! Have your kids say the words aloud and think of the meaning as they write. After enough repetitions, hopefully it will become part of their "motor memory" and once started they will be able to finish a character almost by reflex. They'll need this level of ingrained familiarity if they hope to retain the knowledge for long.

    It's essential then to review regularly and for them to brush up on what they forgot. Flashcards can be used as others suggested, but I'd recommend using a "3-sided" flashcard that shows the English translation, the character and the pronunciation all separately. You can do this by writing along the top and bottom of one side of the card and holding them so you don't see both at once. This way they won't depend on the Romanized pinyin to pronounce characters. To optimize learning, reorganize the cards based on how well they're known. This way time won't be wasted needlessly reviewing stuff that's already learned.

    To help with this optimization, some people use computer programs to model their memory decay, bringing up the character flashcard only when it's likely to be on the verge of being forg

  54. ...but generalized! by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    This can be generalized: Any technique that is usable for memorizing a vocabulary, are also good for memorizing Chinese characters. Since they are more words than letters.

    Take the best ones, and you’re good.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  55. Skritter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hm. /. ate my last post.

    Anyway - check out www.skritter.com - been using it for a while now and am making masses of progress with it. Allows you to write words/characters, tells you if they're correct and reminds you if you get them wrong etc.

    Way better than flash cards.

  56. Chinese orthography and the way to approach it by tokenshi · · Score: 1

    Being a linguist, I have some suggestions, sorry if i come across as condescending, but there are some things to be addressed first. Orthography NEVER, EVER, EVAAAR correlates to genuine sound in natural language because there is no direct analog to represent sound via writing (yes, even the IPA [international phonemic alphabet] fails to do this.) The reason is simple - We use a different part of the brain to process written language (The Visual Word Formation Area being one of them -- Posterior occipito-temporal lobe.) Chinese characters do however have a logic behind them -- Most of the basic (i.e. first few THOUSAND) characters use radicals which imply the semantic relationship and topic of the character. for concrete objects, these often have radicals which were derived from their sources (much like the latin alphabet and runes were once ideographs that closer represented real world items.) Dog (gou3) for example has two main radicals - the left most being "claw" the right being a variation of 'mouth' (probably closer to jaws or maw semantically.) My advice is thus multi fold: 1) Have the students learn the radicals in tandem with the character 2) Also stress the semantic side of the characters - Use antonyms (semantically separate) for adjectives/adverbs/verbs, as well as homonyms and semantically grouped items (i.e. chair, couch, etc. for things you sit on) 3) Learn some chinese with them, and use it! Chinese uses a similar syntax (not identical mind you) to English, so you can learn basic nouns and verbs and use them when communicating with your children -- This will reinforce their aural/oral skills, but also help improve the rate at which the VWFA can process information as the pathways between brocas, weirnicke's, audio processing and VWFA are all intertwined. 4) Have them label EVERYTHING in the house with chinese -- The more they read a character, the easier it'll be... and since the characters are generally composed of one or more radicals, it will help them process more complex characters.

    1. Re:Chinese orthography and the way to approach it by tokenshi · · Score: 1

      Also - sorry about the run-on paragraph, accidentally had it set to "html code" and wasn't paying attention. wo3de cuo4 (my bad)

  57. Relationship between sound/shape? by klui · · Score: 1

    I wonder what is the relationship between what "A" looks like and its sound?

    The way to learn Chinese characters is through repetitive writing in addition to learning what each radical means. Each character learned/day needs to be written at least 100 times. There is also a standard way to write most characters, top-down then left-right. Prepare for sore hands and fingers. At least people outside China would probably write the characters in Latin order on a page--left-to-right then top down instead of top down, right-to-left. Writing in Latin order prevents the part of your hand that rests on the paper from getting ink/graphite smeared all over it.

    The use of radicals probably don't apply if one were to use it to learn simplified characters.

    1. Re:Relationship between sound/shape? by tokenshi · · Score: 1

      still applies because the radicals get simplified too... the problem at that point is you get a few radicals that look very similar if not identical to one anotherl

    2. Re:Relationship between sound/shape? by klui · · Score: 1

      I didn't know the radicals get simplified. I was about to say simplified Chinese characters are a bastardization but decided I'd leave it out.

    3. Re:Relationship between sound/shape? by tokenshi · · Score: 1

      Well it is, and it isn't.

      Many of the simplified characters we already in existence prior to the PRC standardizing the language as such, and were part of the reason China decided to standardize, in order to promote literacy and eliminate the confusion that arose from having too many characters for the same semantic concept.

      Even with simplified characters, most Chinese aren't even technically 'literate' in their language until their mid-to-late teens, which is also part of the reason they use Pinyin and Wade-Giles to transcribe Mandarin and Cantonese (respectively) in Latin Characters.

      Also, not that anyone really gives a toot, but I find this particularly interesting: Cantonese is closer to what linguists would call 'proto-chinese' then Mandarin.

      The later started off mainly as a pigeon dialect from when the Mongols started interacting with the Chinese, and through time Mandarin lost it's hard stops at the end of words (p's, t's, k's) and its voicing distinction (e.g. Mandarin truthfully doesn't have a [b], instead it is an unaspirated [p], but with a very short voice onset time.) This loss of contrast in voicing, as well as the neutralization of certain finals is part of the reason the tone system developed, as more perceptual cues were necessary.

      BUUUT I digress.

  58. smart.fn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been learning Japanese recently - http://smart.fm/ is great. Based loosely on the Mnemosyne algorithm to prevent you from spending much time repeating that which you know already, it does an excellent job of assisting rote learning thru games. Let's you add your own content too. Keep meaning to start 'goals' for cisco ios commands and gmat.
    I'm not affliated honest, but do live in Japan.

  59. There's a lot of possibilities here... by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

    There are a lot of different types of scripts, and most don't have a relationship between the shape of a character and its sound:

    1. Idiograms: the characters are stylized pictorial depictions of things. Some very early inscriptions were like this; e.g., very early hieroglyphics. It's arguable whether this is truly "writing."
    2. Logograms: the characters represent words, not things. They don't look very much like drawings of the things they represent, and there are often rules that allow you to use a simpler character as a "base" for inventing a new one for a word that sounds similar. Chinese is like this.
    3. Syllabary: the characters represent whole syllables. Japanese kana (not the kanji) are like this.
    4. Abugida: the characters represent consonants, but take modifiers to represent the vowels that appear with them. A bunch of Indian scripts are like this.
    5. Abjad: characters represent consonants, vowels not normally written down. Don't ask me how this works. The Arabic and Hebrew scripts are like this.
    6. Alphabet: Each character represents a phoneme. The Latin alphabet is the most famous one.
    7. Featural: Each character is a conventional representation of the phonetic details of it is pronounciation. The Korean script, the most famous example by far, is a featural alphabet written in syllabic blocks. Tolkien's Tengwar script in The Lord of the Rings is another famous one.

    So out of those seven types, only featural scripts can be said to represent the pronunciation of the sounds--and this isn't as useful as you may think, because unless you know articulatory phonetics, you can't understand how featural scripts represent pronunciations.

  60. SuperMemo!!! by 5pp000 · · Score: 1

    I'm amazed no one has mentioned SuperMemo. It's based on an actual scientific theory of how to optimize the value of memorization effort. There's a Chinese character library for it already.

    --
    Your god may be dead, but mine aren't!
  61. Slashdot doesn't support Unicode ? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 4, Funny

    I tried to post something illustrating a trick to learn the Chinese language (I learn the language that way) but when I post Chinese characters (double-byte Unicode) here everything messed up.

    Slashdot doesn't support Unicode??

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Slashdot doesn't support Unicode ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot doesn't support Unicode??

      You must be new here.

    2. Re:Slashdot doesn't support Unicode ? by Kagura · · Score: 1

      Flashcards aren't that great for me. The way I learn is by writing characters down on a piece of paper while thinking deeply about the pronunciation. Everybody learns in a slightly different way, a fact that I think is a little unusual.

    3. Re:Slashdot doesn't support Unicode ? by sonicmerlin · · Score: 1

      Well that's no doubt obvious by his huge UID. Sheesh.

    4. Re:Slashdot doesn't support Unicode ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not very unusual at all. If we illustrate our memories as connections (I am not a Neurologist) then our re-call ability will come from how connected a given memory is. This very fact will give people whole new learning paradigms. "Audio", "Visual" etc. based solely on what they use more in other memories and in their day-to-day thought processes.

      How would we develop stronger groups than others around certain stimulus? Well, maybe you heard the dog bark before it bit you, as opposed to having seen it. Not that it has to be a single strong event to emphasize certain connections, it is much more often a sum of life experiences and positive/negative feedback.

      (By the way, has anyone thought a lot about this? I'm trying to find out what the "basic" negative/positive feedback mechanisms are and how much of a "blank plate" our brain is before outside stimulus interferes. Ie. how much genetics is involved with our intellectual abilities and where it begins and where it ends.)

    5. Re:Slashdot doesn't support Unicode ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're doing it wrong, Slashdot Japan supports Unicode fine. The English version seems to strip out extended characters.

  62. Sound and shape of characters by jensend · · Score: 1

    Ok, I know what you meant, but "relation between sound and shape of the characters" suggests to me something along the lines of the following: "see, o and u have this rounded shape, so you should round your lips when you make the corresponding sound; b, d, t, d, and k all have these big straight lines sticking out of them like spears sticking out of dead bodies, which suggest the violence of a plosive consonant."

    1. Re:Sound and shape of characters by NotesSensei · · Score: 1

      Ok. That was imprecise of me. What I meant: I roman alphabet based languages you have a limited set of sound rules, basically the alphabet and some combination rules (th, gh etc.). So if you don't know a word you still can read it aloud. If you don't know the special pronunciation rules you still can read it aloud to someone to get corrected. Seems like the radicals in Chinese characters have a similar function, but less obvious.

  63. Immersion, Immersion, Immersion by vampire_baozi · · Score: 1

    Immerse yourself in the language. Write it and speak it every day. For some, this means living in the country; for others, date someone whose native language is the one you're trying to learn (and who doesn't have any other language in common with you; for example, my girlfriend speaks English, but my Chinese is much better than her English, so we always speak Chinese to each other, as it feels much more natural).

    But yeah, do anything and everything that increases exposure. Flash cards are just one way. Set interfaces in Chinese, watch stuff with Chinese subtitles, etc. After spending a few summers in China, and spending much of my time with Chinese graduate students here (and having a Chinese girlfriend....), I often find myself thinking in Chinese, or mentally translating from Chinese into English, or pirating things with Chinese subtitles because it's faster for me to read Chinese subtitles.

  64. shape + meaning by myfauxfoe · · Score: 2

    I loved tokenshi's response :-) My experience is fairly limited, but here are the things that helped me:

    Practicing the strokes makes a huge difference in learning speed. My tutor provided me with a workbook that had pictures of the characters displaying the order and direction of the strokes, and I was asked to trace the characters at least 10 times each before copying them down. It seems monotonous at first, but pretty soon I built a frame of reference. The strokes became more familiar (even developing a sort of rhythm), which made the characters less intimidating.

    Another thing that has really helped me is studying characters piece by piece. Once you know that the character for "rise"/"stand" combined with "sun"/"day" forms "sound", you can imagine how sound begins each day as the sun rises (birds singing, people waking, etc.) and use that to remember the character. Not all compound characters have such beautifully abstract logic behind their construction (some are a combination of theme and a phonetic, and some are just plain phonetic), but I find that most are adaptable to similar mnemonic devices.

  65. I married one by NotesSensei · · Score: 1

    Doesn't help. The kids complaining "Mother always wants us to sit and learn and it is no fun"

  66. Spaced Repitition. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Bollocks to you, also.

    If you're commuting, or only have a few minutes, that's what a smartphone is for, or the web interface.

    Anki is basically designed to be something you spend only 20 minutes or so per day doing. It uses a similar algorithm to SuperMemo, and the original idea behind SuperMemo (and Anki) is to predict when you're about to forget a given card and flash it to you before that happens. The longer you do this with a given card (without forgetting), the longer the interval gets -- thus, a card you know well, it'll only flash every few months (or even years!), giving you more time to focus on the ones you actually need.

    Plus it can tie to multimedia -- so, record yourself and compare it to a reference recording to check your pronunciation.

    Even without the multimedia, this is something you really can't do with dead trees -- you'd be spending all your time calculating and scheduling cards, and none of your time reviewing.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  67. Asking /. is widening the response by NotesSensei · · Score: 1

    Of course I talk to the teachers. However teachers are few, often not tech-savvy and might not know all possibilities. Crowd sourcing widens options. Btw. I forwarded the URL to the teacher, so she is following.

  68. Fun idea by bytesmythe · · Score: 1

    There is an online comic called Sinfest that occasionally has "cartoon-to-calligraphy" transformations that are interesting.

    If you go to the archive and search for "calligraphy", you can pull up all the relevant strips. They will make more sense if you're a regular reader. Also, I probably wouldn't suggest using these for kids, but if you were creative, you could probably come up with similar types of drawings on your own.

    --
    bytesmythe
    Hypocrisy is the resin that holds the plywood of society together.
    -- Scott Meyer
  69. Tattoos by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

    Just tattoo the entire Chinese alphabet all over your arms. Then it's ready-to-use. Hide your lookups of hard-to-reach areas behind a cool Robot Dance.

    1. Re:Tattoos by NotesSensei · · Score: 1

      all 400000 of them?
      ROFL

    2. Re:Tattoos by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      For those three of you who haven't seen it yet, http://hanzismatter.com/ is the canonical site for idiotic people getting themselves permanently tattooed with a language that they don't understand.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    3. Re:Tattoos by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I heard there's only about 4k in common usage.

  70. Open source Chinese learning software by charlie137 · · Score: 1

    People interested can check this project : http://code.google.com/p/laoshi/

    It is a Chinese learning software that includes :
    - Lessons viewer
    - Flash card game
    - A dictionary
    - Characters viewer
    - Tones recognition game
    - Database of learned characters

    I started the project a month ago and I am looking for interested people to contribute or give me feedback.

    The code is in python using gtk for the interface, the dictionary database comes from the cc-cedict project : http://cc-cedict.org/.

  71. Traditional way is to learn the 3 char classic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The traditional way is to learn the 3 characters classic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Character_Classic
    The modern way is to read chinese children books

  72. Arch Chinese by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    I'm surprised no one has even mentioned this one.

    Amongst the key features:

    • Animations showing the correct stroke order for all simplified and many traditional characters
    • Pronunciation
    • Character decomposition
    • Create printable worksheets
    • Search characters phonetically or by components/radicals

    The basic useful features are free. Didn't see a need to sign up as a paying member, although I might break down and buy a one-time sub just to show my support.

    Requires EVIL proprietary binary blob urrh hurrh hurrh Flash urrh binary hurrh hurhh EVIL urrh -- Fuck that, it's a fantastic resource. DO check it out!

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  73. There's a better book for Chinese by Murmel84 · · Score: 1

    I actually started learning the Hanzi using "Learning Chinese Characters" (http://www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chinese-Characters-Revolutionary/dp/080483816X/) and bought Heisig's book to compare them, but even if they are based on the same principles, the first one is way better.

    Matthews & Matthews book not only teaches you the meaning, but also includes mnemonics for the pronounciation and the tone of each character. Maybe it's not that important for Japanese, but Chinese characters give you a lot of clues about their pronounciation using phonetical components, so learning their pronounciation at the same time actually saves you a lot of time. Why memorize "man + lord" = "to live somewhere" if you actually know that "lord" and "live" are both pronounced "zhu" and thus can easily memorize that "live" is something that has to do with "men" and is pronounced like "lord"?

    Also, the book comes with drawings to help you remember the basic building blocks AND has awesome crosslinks between the entries everywhere and a very good index that enable you to find what you are looking for so much faster. Of course, it only teaches you the first 800 ones (+ their components) while Heisig already takes on 1500 in his first and 1500 in his second book, but I hope there will be another Matthews & Matthews book for HSK B soon.

  74. Great discussion - summary and some clarification by NotesSensei · · Score: 1

    Hey everybody,

    thank you very much for your contributions. I really appreciate the time you spend to discuss that question.
    Some clarification:

    • My kids are 10 and go to the Catholic High Primary School in Singapore, Primary 4 level.
    • They speak Chinese to their grand parents who don't speak English.
    • What they are learning is "higher Chinese" (AFAIK a term not used outside the Singaporean educational system) that is supposed to put them on equal footing with native speakers on university level at end of Secondary 4.
    • They learn Chinese since Kindergarten.

    So we are beyond the stage of the first 500 chars -- and it is still a chore. Therefor I was asking.
    Summing up responses so far (in no particular order):

    Again, thx a lot! (and sorry for the caveman English -- don't get it? Read the comments)

  75. Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Quoted at length from Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard. If you like this, go read the whole thing.

    1. Because the writing system is ridiculous. The other day one of my fellow graduate students, someone who has been studying Chinese for ten years or more, said to me "My research is really hampered by the fact that I still just can't read Chinese. It takes me hours to get through two or three pages, and I can't skim to save my life." This would be an astonishing admission for a tenth-year student of, say, French literature, yet it is a comment I hear all the time among my peers
    2. Because the language doesn't have the common sense to use an alphabet. Chinese people I know who have studied English for a few years can usually write with a handwriting style that is almost indistinguishable from that of the average American. Very few Americans, on the other hand, ever learn to produce a natural calligraphic hand in Chinese that resembles anything but that of an awkward Chinese third-grader.
    3. Because the writing system just ain't very phonetic. One could say that Chinese is phonetic in the way that sex is aerobic: technically so, but in practical use not the most salient thing about it. Furthermore, this phonetic aspect of the language doesn't really become very useful until you've learned a few hundred characters, and even when you've learned two thousand, the feeble phoneticity of Chinese will never provide you with the constant memory prod that the phonetic quality of English does.
    4. Because you can't cheat by using cognates. I remember when I had been studying Chinese very hard for about three years, I had an interesting experience. One day I happened to find a Spanish-language newspaper sitting on a seat next to me. I picked it up out of curiosity. "Hmm," I thought to myself. "I've never studied Spanish in my life. I wonder how much of this I can understand." At random I picked a short article about an airplane crash and started to read. I found I could basically glean, with some guesswork, most of the information from the article. The crash took place near Los Angeles. 186 people were killed. There were no survivors. The plane crashed just one minute after take-off. There was nothing on the flight recorder to indicate a critical situation, and the tower was unaware of any emergency. The plane had just been serviced three days before and no mechanical problems had been found. And so on. After finishing the article I had a sudden discouraging realization: Having never studied a day of Spanish, I could read a Spanish newspaper more easily than I could a Chinese newspaper after more than three years of studying Chinese.
    5. Because even looking up a word in the dictionary is complicated. One of the most unreasonably difficult things about learning Chinese is that merely learning how to look up a word in the dictionary is about the equivalent of an entire semester of secretarial school. When I was in Taiwan, I heard that they sometimes held dictionary look-up contests in the junior high schools. Imagine a language where simply looking a word up in the dictionary is considered a skill like debate or volleyball! Another problem with looking up words in the dictionary has to do with the nature of written Chinese. In most languages it's pretty obvious where the word boundaries lie -- there are spaces between the words. If you don't know the word in question, it's usually fairly clear what you should look up. (What actually constitutes a word is a very subtle issue, of course, but for my purposes here, what I'm saying is basically correct.) In Chinese there are spaces between characters, but it takes quite a lot of knowledge of the language and often some genuine sleuth work to tell where word boundaries lie; thus it's often trial and error to look up a word. It would be as if English were written thus:
      FEAR LESS LY OUT SPOKE N BUT SOME WHAT HUMOR LESS NEW ENG LAND BORN LEAD ACT OR GEORGE MICHAEL SON EX PRESS ED OUT RAGE TO DAY AT TH
    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  76. One of the best writing tools.. by davidpbrown · · Score: 1

    http://www.skritter.com/

    Just draw the characters with a mouse and it'll remember your progress, returning to characters in short, medium and long periods that help reinforce long term memory.

  77. Yet another homepage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    check out:
    http://www.smart.fm
    This gets you a nice web-based flashcard-ish software.

    And I can heartily recommend the technique used by James W. Heisig in remembering the kanji.
    I've tried both repetitive (many iterations) and the meme way used by Heisig, and those words I learn by meme tends to stay in memory for longer.

    Another thing that works for me is to picture the kanji in 3d in my mind and then perform a virtual rotation on any axis (x,y,z). Do this for a minute or two.

  78. Re:Great discussion - summary and some clarificati by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stay away from chinesepod.com. They're a known scam outfit with shady owners.

  79. Train, train, train by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have them write the characters. Seriously. That's what worked (and still works) for me. I learned japanese and chinese, well enough to have become a translator.

    If you write them following the stroke order, your hand and your brain will remember them.

    It also helps to dissect them, as explained in "remembering Kanji" (that book is for japanese, though, so there are slight differences, but is still an interesting reading)

    Learn to recognize the radicals, and you will be well off.

  80. derp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I was learning Japanese we used flashcards that likened the shape of the character with an English phrase. Like "na", it looks like a nun kneeling in front of a cross. Things like that. But having never studied Chinese, I'm not sure if it has the same ability.

    Flashcards are probably your answer.

  81. Learning Chinese (hanzi) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is only one way to memorize hanzi. Muscle memory! You must memorize the stroke order. You must write the word 30 times with the right order. Flash cards don't work. If you just look at words you will start to confuse similar words. For example and start to look the same. Anouther example is

    in the digital age stroke order is important because writting recognition software relies on this stroke order.

  82. Re:Flashcards - Mnemosyne, ChinesePod by patniemeyer · · Score: 1

    The open source Mnemosyne flash card system is excellent:

        http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/

    It uses a spaced repetition algorithm and has some features such as not introducing more than a few new cards into the pool at a time (so that you are never overwhelmed).

    Also - ChinesePod is an excellent source for spoken language lessons... some free.

  83. Learning Chinese Characters by Matthews & Matt by thebiss · · Score: 1

    Living in Sichuan, I have had good luck with the book "Learning Chinese Characters" by Matthews & Matthews, Tuttle press. [http://www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chinese-Characters-Revolutionary/dp/080483816X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269201386&sr=8-1] It provides graphical illustrations and stories that combine to relate hanzi with meaning and pronounciation. Tuttle also publishes flashcards. See related books at the above site. I only which I had more time to learn. Good luck!

    --
    Beware: I believe all are created equal, and have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
  84. A book full of mnemonics: by Inyu · · Score: 1

    Titled "Chinese Characters: Learn & Remember 2,178 Characters", by Alan Hoenig, and yes, I use memorization software both SuperMemo and Anki, yet I still recommend this wonderful book. It gets you on the right track by offering the characters in the order of increasing graphical complexity, in a way that nearly each following character can be constructed from the preceding characters as its building blocks,... and it does so by providing sufficiently short yet effective mnemonics.

  85. skritter by xandroid · · Score: 1

    I've found Skritter to be a wonderful service for refreshing my Chinese character knowledge. It has a very slick UI that has you draw the character, so you don't forget the stroke order.

    --
    $ echo "ceci n'est pas une pipe" | sed -Ee 's/(eci n|pas )//g'
  86. FYI by xandroid · · Score: 1

    "the 10,000 or so chinese characters"

    There are quite a few more Chinese characters than that. The Kangxi dictionary, published in the early 18th century, lists 47 thousand (albeit many of them are not used commonly any more).

    --
    $ echo "ceci n'est pas une pipe" | sed -Ee 's/(eci n|pas )//g'
  87. simplified vs. traditional characters by juan2074 · · Score: 1

    That is definitely true for traditional Chinese characters, but it breaks down with the simplified characters. Some simplified characters remove or change radicals, or the whole character changes dramatically, so the phonetic portion may no longer be there or is not apparent.

    Ironically, the traditional characters are easier to learn to read and understand (maybe not to write) than the simplified ones.