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Flaw In Emergency Response System May Have Killed Hundreds

Hugh Pickens writes "The Telegraph reports that a flaw in the way emergency response software was set up to handle Category A responses in Great Britain may have cost hundreds of lives over the past ten years. Most ambulance services use an international computerized system designed in America and in the US version, a fall of more than 6 feet receives the maximum priority response. However, the government committee which governs its use in Great Britain decided that such cases should be deemed less urgent, and excluded from an eight minute category A target response time. If a call involved a fall of more than 6 feet it was designated a lower priority 'category B response' despite the presence of life-threatening conditions which were supposed to receive the most urgent category A response. The flaw came to light after Bonnie Mason, 58, fell 12 feet down the stairs and died from a head injury after emergency controllers in Suffolk failed to identify her situation as 'life-threatening.'"

30 of 437 comments (clear)

  1. More like a flaw in statistics by selven · · Score: 4, Informative

    The summary sounds like "we underestimated how dangerous a medium distance fall can be, so we didn't have the correct priorities and more people died than could have". That isn't really a flaw in the algorithm, it's just a flaw in one specific parameter in the algorithm.

    1. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It seems that the software downgraded to category B if the fall was larger than 6 feet regardless of other (category A) factors.

      e.g., the patient has been shot and stabbed and drowned and fell 8 feet so it's a category B now.

      That is a fault in the software.

    2. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The summary sounds like "we underestimated how dangerous a medium distance fall can be

            Obviously the committee didn't include anyone with medical training. I am a physician and we know that even falling your own height can produce life-threatening injuries. But of course why should a government committee do anything as mundane as seek professional medical advice?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    3. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The British aren't really Europeans. Socially, they're much more like Americans than they are like those from the Continent.

    4. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is not a issue with socialised medicine, Its an issue with bureaucrats not listening to the experts. Same kind of thing would happen if medical care was completely privatised.

    5. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And yet, the 'rationed' socialist healthcare here in Britain is still a metric fuckton better than what you get in the US.

      There is an important lesson to be learned- some people really are so stupid that they'll believe ridiculous scaremongering rather than risk having to re-examine their exiting ideology.

    6. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The point is this: the software was written in the USA, and it murdered peaceful and enlightened Europeans.

      The point is actually this: the software was written in the USA, but the Europeans had to go and dick with it thereby murdering the people that elected the retards who decided to perform the aforementioned dickery.

    7. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by jo_ham · · Score: 5, Informative

      Alternatively, we could have a US system, where the ambulance won't set off unless your insurance covers it, or won't take you to the nearest hospital because that is not "in network".

      Or, they'll take you to the hospital, unconscious, and then stick you with the bill because the trip wasn't "pre-approved".

      This has nothing to do with socialised care and everything to do with bureaucrats making decisions that affect people - it's is not exclusive to socialised medicine. Regardless of how you slice it, ambulances and ambulance crews are a finite resource and priorities have to be set. They should not be set by non-medical people though, as in this case which was clearly wrong, and in the case of a lot of medical decisions under the US system (where your insurance company, and not a doctor, decides the care you receive).

      I'll take the NHS any day.

    8. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by SUB7IME · · Score: 5, Informative

      Just replying so that people know not to take your post literally. Ambulances in the US will take you to the nearest hospital with appropriate facilities for your condition.

    9. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 5, Informative

      And yet, the 'rationed' socialist healthcare here in Britain is still a metric fuckton better than what you get in the US

      How strange. When I was living in the UK there always seemed to be some kid on TV looking for money to pay for them to fly to America to get treatment which they couldn't get under the rationed socialist NHS.

      While I was a student there were two cases of someone in my group of a dozen friends having a serious medical problem and being told that there weren't resources in American hospitals, despite their good health insurance, to treat them promptly enough to prevent permanent disability. Both went to India and received immediate care that successfully fixed their problems and despite the fact that they had to pay 100% of the cost of surgery, the total cost including airfare was thousands less than their share of the cost for the same procedures under their health plans. Here near the northern border of the US I know someone who goes to Canada to get treatment unavailable under the rationed capitalist American system.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    10. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How strange. When I was living in the UK there always seemed to be some kid on TV looking for money to pay for them to fly to America to get treatment which they couldn't get under the rationed socialist NHS.

      You see such cases on TV, because a person not getting the healthcare they need under a socialized healthcare system makes for a great story (= attracts viewers). When a person does get all the healthcare they need, it's system working as intended, which doesn't make a great story.

      I mean, what exactly do you expect - daily headlines along the lines of "NHS provides heart surgery for patiena in need"?

      Also, I wonder how many such cases are there in practice, in proportion to the total population count. Or, better yet, how many people die in UK vs US because of not receiving healthcare that they needed for any reason (waiting lists or unavailability in UK, inability to pay in US, etc). That would be a much more interesting statistic.

    11. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by izomiac · · Score: 5, Interesting

      While I was a student there were two cases of someone in my group of a dozen friends having a serious medical problem and being told that there weren't resources in American hospitals, despite their good health insurance, to treat them promptly enough to prevent permanent disability. Both went to India and received immediate care that successfully fixed their problems

      As a medical student I may be a bit idealistic, but AFAIK this sort of thing should not be possible for about half a dozen reasons. What sort of illness did your friends have, and why was no doctor in the whole country willing to treat it?

    12. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by ahankinson · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, you don't have your own continent, and we have a Queen you may have heard of.

      Signed,

      Canada

    13. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Idiomatick · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Clearly the coders or whoever set it up that way fucked up. And you had me until the anti-government rant. Driving any vehicle at high speeds comes with danger so there are good reasons to lower the category. (Hong Kong has only 1 category and stats show that this is a shitty plan). Likely that they modified the system based on new information, incredibly well-established facts aren't always true.

      UK - "The most critical emergency calls, referred to as "Category A" calls, have a response time requirement of eight minutes and zero seconds, with a 75% compliance requirement, and the additional stipulation that 95% of these calls must be reached within 14 minutes in urban areas and 19 minutes in rural areas. "
      US - "For life-threatening emer-gencies, providing a transport-capable unit within 8:59 with 90% reliability is the most common urban benchmark. Common rural and wilderness benchmarks are within 15/90% and 30/90%, respectively."

      So, comparatively the two countries are similar in numbers. UK is arguably a bit behind, but if you've ever been to both cities it is obvious why. The US was designed for cars, the UK for people or carriages in many parts. In any-case it is insulting to say that they are behind due to government negligence. And this is just talking about ambulance response times, in many other metrics the UK is far far ahead with their socialized healthcare. So please refrain from the rhetoric. I think we can all agree we have enough of that already.

    14. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by ahankinson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When I was living in the UK there always seemed to be some kid on TV looking for money to pay for them to fly to America to get treatment which they couldn't get under the rationed socialist NHS.

      How strange. When I turn on the television, there always seems to be some American family who lost their house, had to declare bankruptcy and move in with friends or family after their greedy, captialist insurance provider dropped them because of a "pre-existing medical condition."

    15. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...and we have a Queen you may have heard of.

      Please be Elton John...
      Please be Elton John...
      Please be Elton John...

      /clicks

      AWESOME!

    16. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Cimexus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Indeed. The quality of heath care in the US is top notch ... if you can get it/afford it. It's that "if you can get it" that's the issue.

      A little story. I'm Australian. We have free universal health care in Australia, like most other countries. And the quality of that healthcare is good. Better than in the UK, IMO (I've lived in both countries). Three months ago I was visiting relatives in the US. Unfortunately I suffered an acute illness that required hospitalisation. I should point out that I'm young (27) and healthy, and have never required admission to hospital before. Now as a visitor to the US for three weeks, naturally I have no insurance/employer/any other connection to the US.

      I was only in the ER for 89 minutes. The bill was over $2000 USD for that hour and a half! What struck me most about the US system though, more than the COST, was the incredible inefficiency. A bill from the hospital got mailed. Then a separate bill from some other company who apparently had some role. Then another bill from the doctor himself (wtf, doesn't the doctor work for the hospital?). All this paperwork, all these separate entities at play. In Australia and most other countries, there's a single payer system. You pay nothing and a single (government) insurer picks up the bill. It works well, not because it's socialised (the hospitals/doctors themselves are still private enterprises), but because it's just more efficient. Health care providers don't have to chase down 100s of different insurers with different paperwork and different requirements. They just batch their bills up and a single entity pays them.

      But I do admit that, although expensive, the doctor gave me excellent treatment. He did many tests (including ones that I thought were unnecessary, and probably wouldn't have been done in the same situation at home). This is probably why the cost was so huge.

      So yes, US healthcare is excellent quality. And particularly so for more advanced or cutting edge treatments - you can often only get them in the US (mostly because most health research is still done in the US). But if you are poor, God help you, because you can't afford it. Or if you are a visitor like me - I'm not poor and I have private health insurance at home in Australia, but that doesn't mean Jack in the US.

      Ironically, if I were an American visiting either Australia or the UK, and the same thing happened to me, I'd get the same treatment for free. THAT irritates me ... my tax dollars pay for treating US tourists, but they don't extend the same courtesy to me as a visitor to their country.

    17. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by hamster_nz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well! There is somebody who believes the basic assumptions of an outdated economic dogma can be applied to all areas of life. Here are a few ideas to ponder over....

      1. Do people and companies react in a sane rational way, especially when it comes to healthcare?

      2. Are you aware that large free markets have been proven to be disconnected from what is called "the fundamentals"?

      3. Is a person or company acting in what is in their best interest always acting in the interests of the whole community?

      4. Have you ever heard of game theory or the prisoner's dilemma?

      5. Can we expect everybody patients have access to all information, allowing them to act rationally, or will they be making decisions on incomplete information?

      And for some more direct questions:

      1. Would it not be in a hospital's best interest to only admit "nice and easy" cases, and turn away 'hard cases', to help their statistics look good?

      2. Why do the foreign quacks selling Cancer treatments and fake stem cell therapies not go out of business?

      3. Homeopathy still attracts dollars, even when it doesn't actually work. Why?

      You need to read more advanced economic theory...

  2. Not a flaw in the system by Raptoer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The system itself wasn't flawed, but rather whoever set it up decided that they should be category B. The system did exactly what it was told, it just was told to do something different than in the US, and something that was later deemed to be suboptimal.

    1. Re:Not a flaw in the system by sunderland56 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In other words - programmers can do brilliant things, only to have them screwed up royally by management.

    2. Re:Not a flaw in the system by tsstahl · · Score: 4, Funny

      Mod parent up. What we should be reading is a headline that says Great Britain Death Panel Doing Bang Up Job.

  3. I don't understand by zappepcs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How is this a flaw in the Emergency Response System if the change initiated by a government committee is how the incidents were classified wrongly?

  4. Carol Beer was not a Satire by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 4, Funny

    Caller: Please hurry!! He's fallen down a 30ft well! Can't you get here any faster!?

    A&E Drone: *clackety clackety* ...... Computer say Nooooo....

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
    1. Re:Carol Beer was not a Satire by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Caller: Please hurry!! He's fallen down a 30ft well! Can't you get here any faster!?

      A&E Drone: *clackety clackety* ...... Computer say Nooooo....

      Caller: Well then I'm going to get my gun and put him out of his misery.

      /If that doesn't bump you up to the highest priority, nothing will.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:Carol Beer was not a Satire by WillDraven · · Score: 5, Funny

      A friend of my dad's garage had been broken into several times. One night he heard the guy breaking in and called the cops. The dispatcher said nobody was available right then and he'd have to wait. He hung up the phone, waited a minute and then called back and said "You can take your time, I shot him." and hangs up.

      A minute later 3 cop cars come screaming up and catch the thief trying to run out the garage. The cops talked to the homeowner and said "We heard that you'd shot him."

      He responded "And I heard there was nobody available!"

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
  5. The point by kdcttg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think that the comments I have read above me are missing the point, or maybe I am.

    The software was changed so that falls of more than 6 feet no longer caused a case to be considered "category A", the problem is that (through a mistake when rewriting that bit of code I assume), mention of a fall was causing a case to be considered "category B" even if other things were present that would normally have made it "category A".

  6. Dangers of technical rationality by Geof · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How is this a flaw in the Emergency Response System if the change initiated by a government committee is how the incidents were classified wrongly?

    You're right: it isn't a flaw in the software per se, and I would not assign any blame to those who developed it (as opposed to those who implemented it).

    However, it is a predictable of administration, and the use of information technology is often integrated into systems in just this way. The idea that risk can be rationalized and reduced to a number (class A, class B, and so on) is itself potentially dangerous. Though it is not necessarily dangerous in any particular situation, it is nevertheless predictable that administrative or technical rationality would make this kind of outcome more common.

    You see, the problem was not simply that the response categories were incorrect. The problem was that the system (including its operators, operating procedures, and so on) was too rigid, too rationalized, and therefore unable to respond to unexpected events:

    While some services spotted the risk, ordering operatives to override the computer's orders manually, five of England's 12 ambulance trusts did not allow call handlers to upgrade such calls.

    This kind of event was clearly unexpected by the systems implementors. But even if they had assessed the danger of falls differently, there is likely some other event that would fall outside the systems parameters. (Most falls probably should be category B events, not category A.) That's why you want to have human judgement and human overrides.

    Treating a system in terms of independent technical components has a number of benefits, including efficiency. That's what happened here. The process was rationally divided into tasks for the humans and tasks for the computer. Nice, neat, clean: and likely to produce outcomes like this.

  7. 0118 9998 8199 9119 725 3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    At least the Brits can be credited for the genius of their new number and catchy jingle. Oh one one eight, nine nine nine--eight eight one nine nine, nine one one nine seven two five! .... three.

  8. Re:May have... by jo_ham · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The actual event in question happened a year ago. Given the recent news in the USA - something to do with some sort of bill about healthcare, and the imminent UK general election, I find the timing from a right wing newspaper here in the UK to be highly sensational - especially since the issue has been corrected in the new version of the software, that was released and rolled out last year.

  9. Re:Very misleading title and description ! by KeithIrwin · · Score: 5, Informative

    Because there were two things which went wrong:
    1) falls from over six foot were deemed to not be that serious but also
    2) a computer error (in program or configuration) caused that to override anything else.

    That is, under the decisions made by the bureaucracy the rules should have said:
    1) if someone has fallen from a great height it is a type A (highest class) emergency
    2) if someone has fallen from a moderate height it is a class B emergency unless there is something else which elevates it to a class A
    3) if someone has fallen from ground level (slipped or tripped), it is a class B emergency unless there is something else which elevates it to class A
    4) if someone is having trouble breathing, it is a class A emergency
    5) is someone is bleeding profusely, it is a class A emergency
    (etc).

    The rules as implemented by the system actually effectively said:
    1) if someone has fallen from a great height it is a type A (highest class) emergency
    2) if someone has fallen from a moderate height it is a class B emergency
    3) if someone has fallen from ground level (slipped or tripped), it is a class B emergency unless there is something else which elevates it to class A
    4) if someone is having trouble breathing, it is a class A emergency
    5) is someone is bleeding profusely, it is a class A emergency
    (etc).

    Note the shortened version of rule 2 and why this is relevant: moderate falls were being categorized as class B even when there were other risk factors. In the example case, we had an ambulance which was on its way to treat a woman who had fallen a moderate height and was bleeding profusely. It was diverted to instead help a woman who had slipped and fallen and was having trouble breathing because the first was classified as urgency level B and the first as urgency level A. This is clearly an error in either the software code, configuration, or the use of the program (most likely the configuration, I would guess, but that's just speculation on my part).

    The committee's decision was that moderate falls shouldn't automatically elevate to class A. In practice, the system was assuming that moderate falls always were class B. So something was going wrong with the program, its configuration, or its use.