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Flaw In Emergency Response System May Have Killed Hundreds

Hugh Pickens writes "The Telegraph reports that a flaw in the way emergency response software was set up to handle Category A responses in Great Britain may have cost hundreds of lives over the past ten years. Most ambulance services use an international computerized system designed in America and in the US version, a fall of more than 6 feet receives the maximum priority response. However, the government committee which governs its use in Great Britain decided that such cases should be deemed less urgent, and excluded from an eight minute category A target response time. If a call involved a fall of more than 6 feet it was designated a lower priority 'category B response' despite the presence of life-threatening conditions which were supposed to receive the most urgent category A response. The flaw came to light after Bonnie Mason, 58, fell 12 feet down the stairs and died from a head injury after emergency controllers in Suffolk failed to identify her situation as 'life-threatening.'"

91 of 437 comments (clear)

  1. More like a flaw in statistics by selven · · Score: 4, Informative

    The summary sounds like "we underestimated how dangerous a medium distance fall can be, so we didn't have the correct priorities and more people died than could have". That isn't really a flaw in the algorithm, it's just a flaw in one specific parameter in the algorithm.

    1. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It is worse than that actually. The operators were prohibited in upgrading the priority manually. The emergency services just trusted the computer program.

    2. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It seems that the software downgraded to category B if the fall was larger than 6 feet regardless of other (category A) factors.

      e.g., the patient has been shot and stabbed and drowned and fell 8 feet so it's a category B now.

      That is a fault in the software.

    3. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The summary sounds like "we underestimated how dangerous a medium distance fall can be

            Obviously the committee didn't include anyone with medical training. I am a physician and we know that even falling your own height can produce life-threatening injuries. But of course why should a government committee do anything as mundane as seek professional medical advice?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    4. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The British aren't really Europeans. Socially, they're much more like Americans than they are like those from the Continent.

    5. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is not a issue with socialised medicine, Its an issue with bureaucrats not listening to the experts. Same kind of thing would happen if medical care was completely privatised.

    6. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And yet, the 'rationed' socialist healthcare here in Britain is still a metric fuckton better than what you get in the US.

      There is an important lesson to be learned- some people really are so stupid that they'll believe ridiculous scaremongering rather than risk having to re-examine their exiting ideology.

    7. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The point is this: the software was written in the USA, and it murdered peaceful and enlightened Europeans.

      The point is actually this: the software was written in the USA, but the Europeans had to go and dick with it thereby murdering the people that elected the retards who decided to perform the aforementioned dickery.

    8. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by jo_ham · · Score: 5, Informative

      Alternatively, we could have a US system, where the ambulance won't set off unless your insurance covers it, or won't take you to the nearest hospital because that is not "in network".

      Or, they'll take you to the hospital, unconscious, and then stick you with the bill because the trip wasn't "pre-approved".

      This has nothing to do with socialised care and everything to do with bureaucrats making decisions that affect people - it's is not exclusive to socialised medicine. Regardless of how you slice it, ambulances and ambulance crews are a finite resource and priorities have to be set. They should not be set by non-medical people though, as in this case which was clearly wrong, and in the case of a lot of medical decisions under the US system (where your insurance company, and not a doctor, decides the care you receive).

      I'll take the NHS any day.

    9. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nice FUD there... but actually, the British selected a lower category than the default for that situation, according to the summary.

      Note:

      Most ambulance services use an international computerized system designed in America and in the US version, a fall of more than 6 feet receives the maximum priority response. However, the government committee which governs its use in Great Britain decided that such cases should be deemed less urgent, and excluded from an eight minute category A target response time.

      Also, to the GGGP, TFA states that the fine tuned algorithm was supposed to invoke additional training for ambulance staff to elevate issues manually if life-threatening conditions were detected. In any case, I'm confused on how they would do that as, by my understanding, the categorisation determines response time which would delay the initial response... hardly giving them a chance to upgrade the category of the incident. But hey, I didn't read it that thoroughly, so correct me if I missed something.

    10. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by SUB7IME · · Score: 5, Informative

      Just replying so that people know not to take your post literally. Ambulances in the US will take you to the nearest hospital with appropriate facilities for your condition.

    11. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anpheus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your insurance company however, can still do ridiculous things to you if you were taken to a provider they don't cover, etc.

    12. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't be surprised - accurate information about the US has never been a priority in Europe.

    13. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by nschubach · · Score: 2, Funny

      Either that or they put a bunch of bureaucrats and accountants in control of the money and they needed a measure to determine how to spend said money... you know, the stuff they keep telling us won't happen.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    14. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And yet, the 'rationed' socialist healthcare here in Britain is still a metric fuckton better than what you get in the US

      How strange. When I was living in the UK there always seemed to be some kid on TV looking for money to pay for them to fly to America to get treatment which they couldn't get under the rationed socialist NHS.

    15. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by baegucb · · Score: 2, Informative

      Seems this committee might be relevant, and if you check the 2nd link in Google, there are quite a few doctors on it:
      http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=%22department+of+health%22+great+britain+ambulance+committee&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22department+of+health%22+great+britain+ambulance+committee&gs_rfai=&fp=ae8f9588018abe0f

      Perhaps there are other factors or committees involved who ignored medical advice.

    16. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by twostix · · Score: 3, Informative

      I hate to break it to you but the NHS is the worst of all the western public healthcare systems.

      I'll take the Australian, German or French system any day over the abomination that is the NHS.

      And I'm sure that you're aware that most states in the US (which of course are as populous and economically large as most European countries) have various forms of public insurance and public public care, so much so that even the "worst case" "victims" the administration keep bringing out to show how awful the current US healthcare system is have all been covered and receiving full treatment in their respective states public systems. Something the administration always conveniently neglect to mention.

      The current rigmarole in the United States regarding healthcare is not about public / private, it's about the Federal Government moving into areas that it's does not have the authority to legislate. It's directly comparable to if (when) the European Union decides it's going to "take over" all of its member states discrete healthcare systems and run them from Brussels.

      When that happens the EU *certainly* won't choose the UK model, and given how noisy and condescending you Brits have been about the Americans unwillingness to allow complete take over of healthcare by their Federal government don't expect any sympathy when the EU (yes they are talking about it http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_overview/co_operation/mobility/patient_mobility_en.htm) comes to take over yours.

    17. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by jo_ham · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you wait 13 hours to be diagnosed with life threatening conditions then the triage system has failed.

      The US system "works" for the rich (and even then, not always - your insurance company decides when you are too expensive to treat) at the expense of the poor.

      You get healthcare at the expense of those less fortunate than yourself, which doesn't sit well with me at all. It's also *absurdly* expensive, even before you factor in the private insurance cost - the US spends twice as much of its GDP per capita on the system it has compared to the UK.

      Even Sarah Palin has to duck across the border to canada to afford medicine.

    18. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by lastchance_000 · · Score: 2, Informative
      It's not clear from TFA whether it was a change in the software, or in parameters to the software that were changed. What is clear is that in the case used to highlight the problem, dispatchers were bound by policy not to override the software's recommendation, even if they knew it was wrong:

      While some services spotted the risk, ordering operatives to override the computer’s orders manually, five of England’s 12 ambulance trusts did not allow call handlers to upgrade such calls. They include the East of England ambulance service, which covers Suffolk and which only identified the risk after Mrs Mason’s death.

    19. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 5, Informative

      And yet, the 'rationed' socialist healthcare here in Britain is still a metric fuckton better than what you get in the US

      How strange. When I was living in the UK there always seemed to be some kid on TV looking for money to pay for them to fly to America to get treatment which they couldn't get under the rationed socialist NHS.

      While I was a student there were two cases of someone in my group of a dozen friends having a serious medical problem and being told that there weren't resources in American hospitals, despite their good health insurance, to treat them promptly enough to prevent permanent disability. Both went to India and received immediate care that successfully fixed their problems and despite the fact that they had to pay 100% of the cost of surgery, the total cost including airfare was thousands less than their share of the cost for the same procedures under their health plans. Here near the northern border of the US I know someone who goes to Canada to get treatment unavailable under the rationed capitalist American system.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    20. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by jo_ham · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh I'm fully aware that the French, Ausies and even Canucks have better social healthcare than the UK. I am all too aware - I live with the system. It is still infinitely preferable to the US system.

      It is recovering from 20 years of neglect under a tory government in the 80s that could not outright kill it (that would be political suicide) but could starve it to death and turn it into a total mess. It is a mess that it has still not recovered from, many, many years later.

      It is in serious need of fixing, but it is still in better shape than the US.

      It has numerous flaws, and has the "media frenzy" cases that make sensational headlines (like the current one, even though it happened a year ago and has been fixed already - just politically convenient to run the story now), but at its heart it is a very effective system that keeps the UK populace healthy. Most importantly, it provides care for everyone equally for the cost of NI contributions. No one in the UK has to worry about medical bankrupcy, or have to deal with situations where an insurance company overrides your doctor's treatment decisions.

      Incidentally, the UK also has a private healthcare system that its citizens are free to participate in if they like, if they feel the NHS cannot provide for them.

    21. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How strange. When I was living in the UK there always seemed to be some kid on TV looking for money to pay for them to fly to America to get treatment which they couldn't get under the rationed socialist NHS.

      You see such cases on TV, because a person not getting the healthcare they need under a socialized healthcare system makes for a great story (= attracts viewers). When a person does get all the healthcare they need, it's system working as intended, which doesn't make a great story.

      I mean, what exactly do you expect - daily headlines along the lines of "NHS provides heart surgery for patiena in need"?

      Also, I wonder how many such cases are there in practice, in proportion to the total population count. Or, better yet, how many people die in UK vs US because of not receiving healthcare that they needed for any reason (waiting lists or unavailability in UK, inability to pay in US, etc). That would be a much more interesting statistic.

    22. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually it actually sounds like they screwed up when they altered the parameters.

      Instead of raising the threshold for a Cat A response from 6 feet to say, 8 feet, they set an exclusion which said "if the fall is greater than 6 feet, set to Category B".

      There is a huge difference between the two. In the first instance, extenuating factors (a knife wound, abnormal breathing, etc) will always bump the Category up despite the height of the fall. It could be four feet or ten feet, it wouldn't matter. With an exclusion, however, ALL falls over 6 feet, regardless of extenuating factors, will always be bumped down to Cat B.

      The fault lies squarely on the people who modified the system, and that was driven shortsightedly by this governmental committee.

      More to the root problem, though, why the hell would they alter the well-established criteria for a dangerous fall to reduce the load on their ambulance network? Why in god's name didn't they get more frickin ambulances?!

      All I can say is, welcome to government managed health care, where the least important person in the system is the patient.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    23. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by sjames · · Score: 2, Informative

      You seem to be under the impression that the private U.S. system doesn't have any waiting or prioritizing of response. You've obviously never been to an ER or called for an ambulance. We have rationing now, it's just an incredibly inefficient version that's based on economic status rather than medical need.

      The sad thing is that the attempts to kill a sane reform are working. They've managed to steer it to mandating that people buy insurance they can't afford in the first place.

    24. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by sjames · · Score: 3, Informative

      Probably because socialized systems won't perform a futile procedure, but in the U.S. if you have the bux, you can get any treatment you want, even if it's useless.

    25. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by timeOday · · Score: 2, Informative
      I hate to tell you this, but only "bureaucrats," meaning a centralized comittee such as the one in this story, could ever access enough statistics and have a regimented enough procedures to even determine something like this. A physician practicing on the basis of his personal experience would never have a clue whether one class of accidents turns out to have a few more or less deaths than another when averaged over thousands and thousands of cases.

      The US medical system isn't really even in a position to care about matters of fine degree like this, since we already know tens of thousands of people are grossly under-treated for known, curable ailments.

    26. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by izomiac · · Score: 5, Interesting

      While I was a student there were two cases of someone in my group of a dozen friends having a serious medical problem and being told that there weren't resources in American hospitals, despite their good health insurance, to treat them promptly enough to prevent permanent disability. Both went to India and received immediate care that successfully fixed their problems

      As a medical student I may be a bit idealistic, but AFAIK this sort of thing should not be possible for about half a dozen reasons. What sort of illness did your friends have, and why was no doctor in the whole country willing to treat it?

    27. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Same kind of thing would happen if medical care was completely privatised.

      Wrong, you get the same thing if medical care was completely monopolized.

      Private or government, only a monopoly can have the kind of bureaucracy that consistently creates these kinds of decisions. You don't see this stuff happen in independent hospitals with lots of competition - the drive in such cases is always to provide better service at lower cost. If service drops off too far people go to another hospital. If the price drifts too high people go to another hospital. This dynamic creates the optimum price to service balance possible, and the result is premium hospital care.

      Monopolies, whether governmental or private, destroy this dynamic and you end up with mind blowing decisions like "Even though we know falls over 6 feet are potentially life threatening and require immediate care, in order to save money we are lowering the priority of such cases." All it takes now is for someone to fuck up the logic and suddenly ALL cases of falls over 6 feet are given low priority, no matter how high and no matter how hurt the person is.

      What's bad is not really the mistake, it's easy to see where they went wrong, and in a more competitive system someone would have fixed the problem as soon as it came to light (the first hospital will fix it in order to gain an advantage over their competitors, the rest will have to follow suit to stay competitive). What's bad is the government has known about it for the last 10 years and didn't do anything to fix it! Instead a little over half the Trusts manually over-ride such cases. It took an inquiry into the health department by someone who happened to know how the system was supposed to work to get the damn thing fixed!

      So yes, the bureaucrats caused the problem, but the only reason they exist to cause the problem is because it is a monopoly, which tends to create such maddening bureaucracies to sustain itself.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    28. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Dunbal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      in fact if you're a physician I'm sure you've run into some.

            No comment, because everyone eventually makes mistakes including myself. No one is perfect, yet somehow society demands perfection from its doctors. Fat chance.

            However a real (substitute the word competent if you prefer) physician would ALWAYS give a trauma patient the benefit of the doubt when receiving a phone call saying that the patient has "fallen 3 feet and can't/won't get up". NO (competent) physician would say "oh, it doesn't matter it's not that high it can wait". Every physician would suspect some sort of life threatening condition first - to be RULED OUT - and then work towards diagnosing more benign problems. I fail to understand how a committee which includes (competent) physicians would expect a telephone operator following a script no more sophisticated than one used in an Indian call center to be able to take correct medical decisions when the same physicians would be hesitant to take the same decision on the phone - out of concern for a fellow human being or perhaps out of concern of being held professionally liable and literally having their "asses sued off".

            I suspect that this has more to do with limited funding, limited resources and decisions based upon (incomplete) statistics. However one has to think about governments taxing a percentage of income (income tax), a percentage of every single transaction (sales tax/VAT), and any number of other creative direct and indirect taxes being unable to provide sufficient funds for life-saving services and yet somehow being able to fund any number of dead-end pet programs (commonly known as "pork") and unnecessary bureaucracy. I'm sure it exists in the UK too.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    29. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by ahankinson · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, you don't have your own continent, and we have a Queen you may have heard of.

      Signed,

      Canada

    30. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Idiomatick · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Clearly the coders or whoever set it up that way fucked up. And you had me until the anti-government rant. Driving any vehicle at high speeds comes with danger so there are good reasons to lower the category. (Hong Kong has only 1 category and stats show that this is a shitty plan). Likely that they modified the system based on new information, incredibly well-established facts aren't always true.

      UK - "The most critical emergency calls, referred to as "Category A" calls, have a response time requirement of eight minutes and zero seconds, with a 75% compliance requirement, and the additional stipulation that 95% of these calls must be reached within 14 minutes in urban areas and 19 minutes in rural areas. "
      US - "For life-threatening emer-gencies, providing a transport-capable unit within 8:59 with 90% reliability is the most common urban benchmark. Common rural and wilderness benchmarks are within 15/90% and 30/90%, respectively."

      So, comparatively the two countries are similar in numbers. UK is arguably a bit behind, but if you've ever been to both cities it is obvious why. The US was designed for cars, the UK for people or carriages in many parts. In any-case it is insulting to say that they are behind due to government negligence. And this is just talking about ambulance response times, in many other metrics the UK is far far ahead with their socialized healthcare. So please refrain from the rhetoric. I think we can all agree we have enough of that already.

    31. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by ahankinson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When I was living in the UK there always seemed to be some kid on TV looking for money to pay for them to fly to America to get treatment which they couldn't get under the rationed socialist NHS.

      How strange. When I turn on the television, there always seems to be some American family who lost their house, had to declare bankruptcy and move in with friends or family after their greedy, captialist insurance provider dropped them because of a "pre-existing medical condition."

    32. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by clarkkent09 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And yet, the 'rationed' socialist healthcare here in Britain is still a metric fuckton better than what you get in the US.

      It's not though, that's a myth. Survival rates for most major diseases are much higher in the US than in the UK. For example cancer: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00643/news-graphics-2007-_643378a.gif For certain types of cancer the gap is much greater. For heart attack, 30 day survival is much higher in US as well, can't find a nice graph. It all depends on what you compare. Most generalized comparisons of health systems by country you see, such as WHO's, place a very high emphasis on access so a country with universal access can appear high on the list but in reality the health care may be very poor, just equally poor for everyone. So you get absurd things, such as Costa Rica or Morocco being above the USA. Btw, since you are such a big fan of NHS, would you go to for example Malta, Greece, Portugal or Oman for health care? They all rank above UK.

      The system in the US is still crap, just not sure that moving towards NHS types system is going to improve it. Taking the government out and allowing real competition might.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    33. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...and we have a Queen you may have heard of.

      Please be Elton John...
      Please be Elton John...
      Please be Elton John...

      /clicks

      AWESOME!

    34. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Kral_Blbec · · Score: 3, Funny

      ambulances don't run on good deeds and angels wings.

      They would if those gosh darn republicans would just get out of the Obamassiah's way!

    35. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Cimexus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Indeed. The quality of heath care in the US is top notch ... if you can get it/afford it. It's that "if you can get it" that's the issue.

      A little story. I'm Australian. We have free universal health care in Australia, like most other countries. And the quality of that healthcare is good. Better than in the UK, IMO (I've lived in both countries). Three months ago I was visiting relatives in the US. Unfortunately I suffered an acute illness that required hospitalisation. I should point out that I'm young (27) and healthy, and have never required admission to hospital before. Now as a visitor to the US for three weeks, naturally I have no insurance/employer/any other connection to the US.

      I was only in the ER for 89 minutes. The bill was over $2000 USD for that hour and a half! What struck me most about the US system though, more than the COST, was the incredible inefficiency. A bill from the hospital got mailed. Then a separate bill from some other company who apparently had some role. Then another bill from the doctor himself (wtf, doesn't the doctor work for the hospital?). All this paperwork, all these separate entities at play. In Australia and most other countries, there's a single payer system. You pay nothing and a single (government) insurer picks up the bill. It works well, not because it's socialised (the hospitals/doctors themselves are still private enterprises), but because it's just more efficient. Health care providers don't have to chase down 100s of different insurers with different paperwork and different requirements. They just batch their bills up and a single entity pays them.

      But I do admit that, although expensive, the doctor gave me excellent treatment. He did many tests (including ones that I thought were unnecessary, and probably wouldn't have been done in the same situation at home). This is probably why the cost was so huge.

      So yes, US healthcare is excellent quality. And particularly so for more advanced or cutting edge treatments - you can often only get them in the US (mostly because most health research is still done in the US). But if you are poor, God help you, because you can't afford it. Or if you are a visitor like me - I'm not poor and I have private health insurance at home in Australia, but that doesn't mean Jack in the US.

      Ironically, if I were an American visiting either Australia or the UK, and the same thing happened to me, I'd get the same treatment for free. THAT irritates me ... my tax dollars pay for treating US tourists, but they don't extend the same courtesy to me as a visitor to their country.

    36. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by clarkkent09 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There weren't resources in American hospitals to treat them even though they had "good" health insurance? What, the hospitals were all full or something? I happen to know that the cost of surgery in India is something between 30% and 50% less than in the USA (feel free to google it). Any moderately serious procedure is likely to cost in the region of several thousand, even in India. What was the deductible on their plan? $3K would be considered a bargain basement very high deductible plan in the US so you are saying that for less than $3K they were able to fly to India, and pay 100% of the cost of surgery, which was serious enough to cause permanent disability, and the treatment for which was not available in the USA? Without knowing the details, all I can say is that your story doesn't sound true.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    37. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by sycodon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sound like that could be the case. You can't buy a kidney in the U.S. You can in India.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    38. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by sycodon · · Score: 2, Informative

      And if you had read them you would have realized that it was an issue of the Canadian facilities being the ONLY facilities nearby, not one of cost or coverage.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    39. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dear USA:

      I support Canada's comment. I am in America too. No,the isthmus/Canal of Panama do not count to divide the continent. America still goes from Canada to Tierra del Fuego.

      Sincerely,
      Argentina.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    40. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by IWannaBeAnAC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can sit there all day and say what if this and what if that. It means nothing.

      Sure, it is pointless to go back and forth like that. My only comment is that the internets are full of Americans begging for charity as the bank repossesses their house to pay their health bills. That is practically unheard of anywhere else. I don't think there is any justifiable claim that outcomes at the 'top end' of town are comparatively better in the USA either. Anyway, for those who can afford to pay, for most nation's health systems they can always go to a private doctor or hospital. This is certainly true in the UK.

    41. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by twostix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Jo-Ham, until this point I was going to write you off as a typical international victim of the echo chambers of Digg, Reddit, etc.

      But after this: "Even Sarah Palin has to duck across the border to canada to afford medicine." you reveal yourself as an absolute partisan hack out to score worthless political points rather advance any sort of debate.

      To those who don't know, in 1957 when Sarah Palin was a child living out in the middle of nowhere her father took her brother over the border once because they couldn't get out of their town by road or plane to the nearest Alaskan hospital after he burned himself. The train went over the border so they went with it.

      It's *disgraceful* that you try and portray that in the way that you have here; as though recently she went over and that it was a matter of cost. You are disgustingly void of anything resembling intellectual honesty, this is the level of "discourse" in the political left at present and it SUCKS.

    42. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by sycodon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Guess you read the NYTs version.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    43. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by clarkkent09 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes I agree, the health care system in the US can be infuriatingly inefficient, especially if you are used to the simplicity of a single payer system. Couple of years ago I had a relatively minor surgery. I have private health insurance so I was fully covered. The care I received was fantastic, but the bills just kept arriving. From the GP, then from the surgeon, then from the anesthesiologist, then from the lab, then from the hospital. I am not exaggerating, 5 different bills. Each said something like you don't have to pay anything, this is just for your information. But then my insurance company wouldn't pay them fully, so the doctors/hospital would hassle me and I would have to call my insurance company and hassle them. It seems to be standard practice for doctors to massively overbill and then the insurance company negotiates the price down. The total cost billed was something like $15K, but in the end somehow the insurance company paid about $5 or $6K and that was it, I didn't owe anything! Then the insurance company refused to pay for the lab costs because the lab wasn't "in-network" (how the hell was I supposed to know that - the doctor sent over the samples without asking me which lab) so I had all kinds of hassle over that. This seems to be a typical experience.

      Even so, the problem I have with the single payer system isn't to do with efficiency or with the cost or with the quality of care, but with fairness and, really, liberty. You can simplify all kinds of things by making the government take care of them, but it doesn't mean that its a good idea. To take an extreme example, why go through all the hassle of comparing the prices of groceries, clothes, electronics etc etc, each store having to bill you separately, why not just take whatever you need and the stores can send the bill to a single payer - the government. Feel free to apply to everything else. What we have is a system where you pay for the services you use and you don't expect other people to pay for you (well we don't really but that would be the ideal in my view). What you have is a system where every specific individual is forced to pay for the services that other people use regardless of where that individual is using them him/herself. It's a pretty fundamental difference: in one system the individual is sovereign, in the other system the collective is treated as the most important entity and individuals are treated as interchangeable parts. In case you are wondering why there is so much anger over the health care bill in the US, it is because we seem to going further down the road toward losing that concept and a lot of people consider it to be a very valuable thing.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    44. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by dmp123 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ironically, if I were an American visiting either Australia or the UK, and the same thing happened to me, I'd get the same treatment for free. THAT irritates me ... my tax dollars pay for treating US tourists, but they don't extend the same courtesy to me as a visitor to their country.

      Actually, that *isnt* true.

      We charge Americans (or their insurers more likely) for care required here while on holiday. We have reciprocal agreements in place with the rest of the EU and a few places besides for mutual free treatment of each others' citizens (eg. Aus), but we don't extend that privilege to countries which charge ours.

      David

    45. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Gnavpot · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No one is perfect, yet somehow society demands perfection from its doctors.

      Funny, as I member of society, I see the situation as this:

      No one is perfect, yet somehow doctors always arrogantly pretends that they could not be wrong.

      You have set the standards yourself. Live with it.

      As an engineer, working with processes much, much simpler than the human body, I am fully prepared to accept that doctors can't know everything because the human body is far from fully understood. When they pretend to do so anyway, it insults my intelligence.

      (Please disregard my first post. Should have used preview.)

    46. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by hamster_nz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well! There is somebody who believes the basic assumptions of an outdated economic dogma can be applied to all areas of life. Here are a few ideas to ponder over....

      1. Do people and companies react in a sane rational way, especially when it comes to healthcare?

      2. Are you aware that large free markets have been proven to be disconnected from what is called "the fundamentals"?

      3. Is a person or company acting in what is in their best interest always acting in the interests of the whole community?

      4. Have you ever heard of game theory or the prisoner's dilemma?

      5. Can we expect everybody patients have access to all information, allowing them to act rationally, or will they be making decisions on incomplete information?

      And for some more direct questions:

      1. Would it not be in a hospital's best interest to only admit "nice and easy" cases, and turn away 'hard cases', to help their statistics look good?

      2. Why do the foreign quacks selling Cancer treatments and fake stem cell therapies not go out of business?

      3. Homeopathy still attracts dollars, even when it doesn't actually work. Why?

      You need to read more advanced economic theory...

    47. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by HungryHobo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No comment, because everyone eventually makes mistakes including myself.

      It's curious how members of the medical profession close ranks when the posibility of incompetence crops up.
      Everyone in every field meets other members of their profession who are shit at their job yet it's only doctors and nurses who seem to do with One-For-All crap.

      Programmers? They'll decide that one of their own is inept and loudly proclaim it to all around them.
      Physicists? They eat their own.
      Engineers? A whiff of fuckup and the one who screwed up will be derided by all around them.

      Doctors? "we all make mistakes"
      What the fuck is with that?
      The only other example of this kind of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" bullshit I can think of is some of the more blinkered and powerful teachers unions.

      You'd think doctors would be less inclined than other professions to put up with incompetence within their own ranks but the oposite seems to be true.

    48. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No one is perfect, yet somehow society demands perfection from its doctors. Fat chance.

      No, we demand humility and get hubris.

      Every physician would suspect some sort of life threatening condition first - to be RULED OUT - and then work towards diagnosing more benign problems.

      The problems with this are two (well, at least two). One, the person answering the call isn't a doctor and doesn't know triage. They don't have medical resources available. They look in a chart (or a computer does it for them in this case) and the priority is assigned. Two, if everything was "urgent" then there'd be a number of critical cases which were responded to too slowly because they have to treat every case as critical. It's called triage. And when you have no medical training (well, I'm sure they give them first aid classes, but from what I've seen of dispatchers, not any more than that) and the computer is doing triage based on inputs, then you have to assign values to things. Either the medical board didn't have a doctor on it, or a doctor (or doctors) made a mistake that cost hundreds of people their lives.

    49. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Informative

      No,the isthmus/Canal of Panama do not count to divide the continent. America still goes from Canada to Tierra del Fuego.

      You could walk from Paris to Beijing or Johannesburg. If contiguity is the distinguishing factor, then Asia, Europe, and Africa are all one continent as well. However, they aren't. And so you are wrong. "America" refers to the USA and the USA alone. "The Americas" refers to North America and South America together. Someone from the United States of Mexico is referred to as "Mexican" just like someone from the United States of America is referred to as "American."

      It's clear, unambiguous, and from my international travels, only people I've already identified as assholes every complain about it (interestingly one was an Argentinian travel companion I was with who would call himself "American" with the intent of deceiving others into believing he had US citizenship). People may complain about it, but they know exactly what you mean when you say it. But the worst are those who learned English as a second language and mistakenly attribute some rule in their native language as applying in that situation, so they essentially mis-translate into English and then proceed to declare "proper" English like they know better than a native speaker.

    50. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by twostix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Umm I hate to interrupt your long page of WRONG (and your little faux-outrage at the end) but tourists in Australia are most definitely NOT covered by Medicare - unless there is a reciprocal agreement with their home country.

      From immi.gov.au:

      Health Insurance

      Medical treatment in Australia can be very expensive. As a tourist, you are not covered by Australia's national health scheme, unless there is a reciprocal health care agreement between Australia and your country. Health care for visitors to Australia is explained on the Medicare Australia website.
      See: Medicare Australia Health Care for visitors to Australia

      It is recommended that you take out health insurance for yourself and your family for the duration of your stay in Australia. You may be asked to provide evidence that you have health insurance or adequate funds to pay for emergency medical treatment while in Australia in order to satisfy the financial requirements for this visa.

      Secondly regarding "the hospitals/doctors themselves are still private enterprises", the private hospitals here are PRIVATE and don't accept Medicare you require insurance or cash. The state run hospitals are run by...you guessed it, their respective states, employees of such are employees of the state government. Many work for both writing off their public system work as charity and recouping their uni fees / eight years of education in the private system. Is ignorance of your own healthcare system a must before posting long self righteous rants?

      How embarrassing for you, in front of all these people as well.

      But such is the level of discussion about National healthcare, page upon page written condemning the US and espousing the greatness of ones own countries system all of which is completely and utterly *wrong* and that's before you even reach the bit about the US's system.

      Now I wonder if you'll be modded down now that you have been proven to be absolutely wrong, or if your spiel suits the political leanings of some around here enough to stay at +5 even though it's an absolute fantasy.

    51. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Fred_A · · Score: 3, Funny

      The British aren't really Europeans. Socially, they're much more like Americans than they are like those from the Continent.

      It's the other way round actually. Americans (or the subset in the US, and a bit in Canada, rather) are much like the British and therefore aren't very European because the British refuse to be since they are after all 20km away from the continent.
      The same continent they kept trying, sometimes successfully, to invade, during the last thousand years. Now they just send us their pop singers while acting rude in their trash newspapers.
      We still enjoy going for a visit though because they have fine beers :)

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    52. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by sycodon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Making shit up isn't helping anything.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    53. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by Vintermann · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The software was almost certainly designed to be configurable, because having a fixed classification scheme would defeat the point of such system in the first place. Configuring a configurable system is not "messing with it".

      The people who decided on the emergency response priorities were almost certainly medical professionals - maybe doctors, but quite likely also something more specialized. Emergency response statistics is a field of its own. People with an education in it would be in an uproar if random bureucrats decided issues like these. If you want to claim they let anyone mess with it, the burden of proof is on you.

      (mandatory xkcd: Long light)

      I wish slashdot mods would see that you're not insightful just because you're blindly bashing government.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    54. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by sycodon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Over here we have this thing called the Constitution that explicitly restricts what the government can do. But that doesn't seem to matter much to people anymore.

      So long as the pet cause of the Administration is achieved, fuck the Constitution.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    55. Re:More like a flaw in statistics by aug24 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Possibly more importantly, where is the feedback mechanism? (The continuous integration equiv?)

      Does an A&E triage nurse confirm/alter the categorisation and is it used to improve the system? Or do we blindly assume what we have is right until The Telegraph prints something?

      Sadly I believe the answer is (b).

      Justin.

      --
      You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
  2. Not a flaw in the system by Raptoer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The system itself wasn't flawed, but rather whoever set it up decided that they should be category B. The system did exactly what it was told, it just was told to do something different than in the US, and something that was later deemed to be suboptimal.

    1. Re:Not a flaw in the system by sunderland56 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In other words - programmers can do brilliant things, only to have them screwed up royally by management.

    2. Re:Not a flaw in the system by tsstahl · · Score: 4, Funny

      Mod parent up. What we should be reading is a headline that says Great Britain Death Panel Doing Bang Up Job.

    3. Re:Not a flaw in the system by MWoody · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I know this is Slashdot and all, but for the rest of the world, "system" means any organized collection of rules and doctrines. "System" here refers to the Emergency Response System as a whole, including the computers, the people who run them, the officials responsible for determining policy, etc.

  3. I don't understand by zappepcs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How is this a flaw in the Emergency Response System if the change initiated by a government committee is how the incidents were classified wrongly?

    1. Re:I don't understand by petermgreen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The article is a bit vauge but my reading of it is the flaw was that the system along with instructions given to staff combined to give a situation where the response was detemined by something other than the worst thing the staff member was told about.

      That is someone with just the fall should have been class B but someone with the fall AND other issues could get misclasified as class B when they should have got a higher class from one of the other issues (in this case the person was unconscious and had breathing problems).

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    2. Re:I don't understand by Cassini2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Anyway, there is the Swansea AMPDS codes (with the Govt Standard also listed) http://www.sufr.co.uk/Initial_Actions/ampdsv_11.3.htm -- you can see there that Fall >6ft is assigned amber (Cat B).

      This list could go seriously wrong when responding to emergencies. It's virtue is that it is a great list for a triage assessment at hospitals. A trained triage nurse could use it to call codes, after quickly examining a patient in front of her. Yellow is "> 5 min", Red is "possibly dead in 5 min", Purple is "almost / already dead", and Green is "No Hurry".

      A 911 operator (or a 999 operator) is communicating with paniced people without medical training. These people will not be able to give a "medically accurate" descriptions. For instance, the list differentiates between Cardiac Arrest, Chest Pain (Non-Traumatic), and Abdominal Pain. It even includes Abdominal Pain "not alert" as a yellow, and Chest Pain "not alert" as Red. I don't think the average caller can tell the difference, and some patients will die before anyone figures it out. I'm not sure what the emergency response times are in Swansea, but if you spend more than 60 seconds on the phone debating if a person is Red, then you will be losing a measurable percentage of the Red patients.

      The building fire section is also a bit strange. If you have a building on fire, with people reporting it (visual identification), if people are in the building, you have to role an ambulance. Don't wait until the occupants are out of the building, before escalating the call. Do you need 5 people unconscious on the lawn before deciding it is a Code Red (multiple victims)?

      Triage lists for 911 / 999 response must be based on what paniced people can communicate. For example: Is the person breathing? Are they conscious? Do you see smoke/flames? Are people in the building? People can answer these questions quickly.

  4. Carol Beer was not a Satire by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 4, Funny

    Caller: Please hurry!! He's fallen down a 30ft well! Can't you get here any faster!?

    A&E Drone: *clackety clackety* ...... Computer say Nooooo....

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
    1. Re:Carol Beer was not a Satire by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Caller: Please hurry!! He's fallen down a 30ft well! Can't you get here any faster!?

      A&E Drone: *clackety clackety* ...... Computer say Nooooo....

      Caller: Well then I'm going to get my gun and put him out of his misery.

      /If that doesn't bump you up to the highest priority, nothing will.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:Carol Beer was not a Satire by WillDraven · · Score: 5, Funny

      A friend of my dad's garage had been broken into several times. One night he heard the guy breaking in and called the cops. The dispatcher said nobody was available right then and he'd have to wait. He hung up the phone, waited a minute and then called back and said "You can take your time, I shot him." and hangs up.

      A minute later 3 cop cars come screaming up and catch the thief trying to run out the garage. The cops talked to the homeowner and said "We heard that you'd shot him."

      He responded "And I heard there was nobody available!"

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
  5. Ambulance Service by lymond01 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We have friends in England and one of them had her hip replaced. A couple weeks after she was able to walk on it, she was doing the dishes and the replacement broke -- basically either the hip or femur end broke and was completely out of socket. Her husband called 999 and the ambulance at first refused to come because it wasn't a life-threatening emergency. "Can she just walk to the car?" "Can you carry her to the car?" You can probably imagine your wife screaming in pain, you not knowing if some vein or artery has been sliced, and any movement at all just makes her scream more. "Yah, it's cool. I just duct taped her mouth and threw her over my shoulder. I think she's passed out from the pain so tossing her in the back seat should work a treat. We'll be at the hospital in no time!"

    I realize a line needs to be drawn somewhere. Some people will call for an ambulance when they've cut themselves shaving. But you know, when you can hear the screams in the background...you should probably get off your asses and help out.

    1. Re:Ambulance Service by Cassini2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Her husband called 999 and the ambulance at first refused to come because it wasn't a life-threatening emergency.

      I must be missing something here. Where I live, if you call for an ambulance, it comes. If something serious is going on, call the fire department and the ambulance, because the fire department has a quicker response time. There is no option for "not show up". Some injuries (like concussions) don't look like emergencies immediately. As such, the procedure is to get you to the hospital, and have the nurses and doctor's deal with the situation.

      Sure, if you call an ambulance over a stubbed toe, then the ambulance guys will send you a bill for the ride to the hospital, and the police might charge you for wasting everyone's time. However, the ambulance, police and fire will show up.

      Do the ambulances in England have an option to refuse to come in an acute, emergency situation? involving major fractures? dislocations?

    2. Re:Ambulance Service by Faluzeer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hmmm

      I am sorry but that does not sound plausible. An ambulance will always be dispatched for that type of injury, it may be not always be classed as an emergency response and so may be delayed due to higher priority incidents but an ambulance will always arrive.

      My mother fell and broke her hip in 2005. A neighbour heard the fall, went in to the house saw my mother on the floor and called the emergency services, the neighbour then rang me.

      I left work, got on my motorcycle and did a high speed dash from my place of work to my mothers house (about 15 miles on the motorway), luckily there were no police on that portion of it. By the time I arrived at my mothers, the ambulance had arrived, had assessed her and were in the process of transferring her to the ambulance.

      The NHS has a number of problems, but I have never known the ambulance service to out-right refuse to attend a scene. Mistakes can and have been made by dispatchers wrongly categorising injuries, but generally elderly people that fall are classed as high priority regardless of the symptoms.

  6. The point by kdcttg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think that the comments I have read above me are missing the point, or maybe I am.

    The software was changed so that falls of more than 6 feet no longer caused a case to be considered "category A", the problem is that (through a mistake when rewriting that bit of code I assume), mention of a fall was causing a case to be considered "category B" even if other things were present that would normally have made it "category A".

    1. Re:The point by socsoc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm with you... I am thoroughly confused about the newsworthiness of this aside from that Hugh Pickens submits tons of stories.

  7. Dangers of technical rationality by Geof · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How is this a flaw in the Emergency Response System if the change initiated by a government committee is how the incidents were classified wrongly?

    You're right: it isn't a flaw in the software per se, and I would not assign any blame to those who developed it (as opposed to those who implemented it).

    However, it is a predictable of administration, and the use of information technology is often integrated into systems in just this way. The idea that risk can be rationalized and reduced to a number (class A, class B, and so on) is itself potentially dangerous. Though it is not necessarily dangerous in any particular situation, it is nevertheless predictable that administrative or technical rationality would make this kind of outcome more common.

    You see, the problem was not simply that the response categories were incorrect. The problem was that the system (including its operators, operating procedures, and so on) was too rigid, too rationalized, and therefore unable to respond to unexpected events:

    While some services spotted the risk, ordering operatives to override the computer's orders manually, five of England's 12 ambulance trusts did not allow call handlers to upgrade such calls.

    This kind of event was clearly unexpected by the systems implementors. But even if they had assessed the danger of falls differently, there is likely some other event that would fall outside the systems parameters. (Most falls probably should be category B events, not category A.) That's why you want to have human judgement and human overrides.

    Treating a system in terms of independent technical components has a number of benefits, including efficiency. That's what happened here. The process was rationally divided into tasks for the humans and tasks for the computer. Nice, neat, clean: and likely to produce outcomes like this.

    1. Re:Dangers of technical rationality by Anpheus · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is an inherent risk to allowing operators of software to override the systems rules.

      I like to call it the "Red Exclamation Point Problem" or the "High Priority Problem." To a not insignificant portion of the population, opportunity to elevate, upgrade, bold, underline, highlight, or change the font red is taken at nearly every opportunity. This defeats the priority system that was set out with the intention of reducing costs, and in this case, saving more lives by better prioritizing the use of a finite resource in emergencies.

      While I agree there are a number of industries and professions in which not allowing user intervention is mistaken, and while I agree that the administration who altered the system in place poorly are at least somewhat to blame for the needless deaths, I don't think dispatchers should have the ability to arbitrarily override the priority system either. It looks like the software handled everything it was told to do correctly, but the administrators made a mistake in designing and testing alterations to it and perhaps did not even consult medical professionals. As a result, people died.

      And lastly, the problem isn't that most falls should probably be category B. That's already taken care of, but falls over six feet being category A must have made sense to someone, and apparently it cost lives changing it.

  8. Slylandro probe by Kev+Vance · · Score: 3, Funny

    Is anyone else reminded of Star Control 2? The "peaceful" Slylandro probe... which was misconfigured with bad priorities.

    Captain: Your probe DOES destroy ships and I can prove it!
    Slylandro: No! It cannot! It is not programmed for hostile behavior! What is your reasoning?!
    Captain: Think about what a probe does when it meets a ship.
    Slylandro: Space ships are the probe's highest priority because we want more than anything to make friendly contact with alien races.
    Captain: Think about a probe's Replication behavior.
    Slylandro: The probe seeks raw materials, and processes them in preparation for Replication.
    Captain: Think about the effect of changing the replication behavior's priority.
    Slylandro: The answer is simple... it would spend more of its time seeking raw materials for its replication process. So what?
    Captain: Now, what will it do to a ship, given that its Replication priority is set to maximum?
    Slylandro: I don't see what you are getting at, but I'll play along with you.
    Slylandro: Like I said, alien ships are THE top priority target. Once a probe scanned a ship, it would instantly move toward it. Then, when it got to the ship, it would initiate communication automatically. When communications were terminated, a new behavior would be selected, and...
    Slylandro: Uh-oh.
    Slylandro: A new behavior would be selected, and since the Replication setting was set to maximum the probe wouldn't get time to pick a new target... it would use the current target--the ship--for raw Replication materials. It would process the ship, break it into component compounds with electrical discharges.
    Slylandro: Oh no! what have we done? Traveller! You must tell us what we can do! How can we stop the probes from destroying all life in the galaxy?!

    --
    F0 07 C7 C8
  9. Re:Lie by bcmm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The whole point of the article is that the logical failure in the system would cause it to consider the crocodiles basically harmless because the fall was greater than six feet.

    --
    # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i llama
    Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
  10. here's my beef by timmarhy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Shouldn't the 911 operator taking the call be well trained enough to know what's life threatening and whats not? this culture of "the computer will do the thinking for us now" needs to stop.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    1. Re:here's my beef by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What kind of mad skills and knowledge are you expecting of a person being paid, on average, less than US$16.00 per hour?

      Will you expect them to be able to diagnose illness and injury over the phone? A medical degree?

      What happens if the dispatcher gets it wrong?

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  11. 0118 9998 8199 9119 725 3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    At least the Brits can be credited for the genius of their new number and catchy jingle. Oh one one eight, nine nine nine--eight eight one nine nine, nine one one nine seven two five! .... three.

  12. Order of Operations by Vexo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Besides the questionable decision regarding the severity of a 6 foot fall, the flaw here seems to be the order in which the conditions were evaluated when determining which category should be assigned. It sounds like when they made the modification, they introduced a bug where a 6+ foot fall would force the call into category B, ignoring other serious condition entries that should have forced it into category A by themselves.

  13. Re:May have... by jo_ham · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The actual event in question happened a year ago. Given the recent news in the USA - something to do with some sort of bill about healthcare, and the imminent UK general election, I find the timing from a right wing newspaper here in the UK to be highly sensational - especially since the issue has been corrected in the new version of the software, that was released and rolled out last year.

  14. Re:Why does fall distance matter so much? by pipedwho · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The ambulance will only take you to the hospital. If the trip was deemed unnecessary and avoidable (or under false pretences), then you'll receive a sizeable invoice in the mail.

    'Free' healthcare is not the bogeyman you think it is. Just because you don't become forever crushed by unrecoverable debt doesn't mean it's a free-for-all wanton orgy of people abusing the system.

  15. Those responsible have been sacked... by Alpha232 · · Score: 2, Funny

    How could such an audience miss this opportunity to quote Python (Monty)!

  16. A 6 foot fall by PPH · · Score: 2, Funny

    What's that in meters?

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  17. Very misleading title and description ! by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 3, Informative

    The title of this thread is "Flaw In Emergency Response System May Have Killed Hundreds"

    The first sentence contains the following: "... a flaw in the way emergency response software was set up to handle Category A responses in Great Britain may have cost hundreds of lives over the past ten years"

    BOTH ARE VERY MISLEADING !!

    The FLAW of the whole thing is the BRITISH GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE which decides that a fall of more than six (6) feet SHOULD BE DEEMED LESS URGENT, AND EXCLUDED FROM AN EIGHT (8) MINUTE CATEGORY A TARGET RESPONSE TIME " !!

    Why blame the software or the emergency controllers when it's the idiotic British bureaucracy which has fcuked up in the first place?

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Very misleading title and description ! by twidarkling · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Since reading is so fundamental, here's something you may enjoy:

      http://www.cracked.com/article_18458_6-subtle-ways-news-media-disguises-bullshit-as-fact.html

      The summary is bullshit, and you know it. Take a gander at "burying inconvenient facts." The summary was organized in such a way as to be misleading, and phrased in such a way to lend itself to casual misinterpretation.

      --
      Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
    2. Re:Very misleading title and description ! by KeithIrwin · · Score: 5, Informative

      Because there were two things which went wrong:
      1) falls from over six foot were deemed to not be that serious but also
      2) a computer error (in program or configuration) caused that to override anything else.

      That is, under the decisions made by the bureaucracy the rules should have said:
      1) if someone has fallen from a great height it is a type A (highest class) emergency
      2) if someone has fallen from a moderate height it is a class B emergency unless there is something else which elevates it to a class A
      3) if someone has fallen from ground level (slipped or tripped), it is a class B emergency unless there is something else which elevates it to class A
      4) if someone is having trouble breathing, it is a class A emergency
      5) is someone is bleeding profusely, it is a class A emergency
      (etc).

      The rules as implemented by the system actually effectively said:
      1) if someone has fallen from a great height it is a type A (highest class) emergency
      2) if someone has fallen from a moderate height it is a class B emergency
      3) if someone has fallen from ground level (slipped or tripped), it is a class B emergency unless there is something else which elevates it to class A
      4) if someone is having trouble breathing, it is a class A emergency
      5) is someone is bleeding profusely, it is a class A emergency
      (etc).

      Note the shortened version of rule 2 and why this is relevant: moderate falls were being categorized as class B even when there were other risk factors. In the example case, we had an ambulance which was on its way to treat a woman who had fallen a moderate height and was bleeding profusely. It was diverted to instead help a woman who had slipped and fallen and was having trouble breathing because the first was classified as urgency level B and the first as urgency level A. This is clearly an error in either the software code, configuration, or the use of the program (most likely the configuration, I would guess, but that's just speculation on my part).

      The committee's decision was that moderate falls shouldn't automatically elevate to class A. In practice, the system was assuming that moderate falls always were class B. So something was going wrong with the program, its configuration, or its use.

  18. I call bullshit by laing · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There weren't resources in American hospitals to tread them promptly enough to prevent permanent disability? Which hospital? What insurance plan? What was the illness?

  19. It's not a bug... by Hawthorne01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... it's a feature! Now victims of falls from more than six feet can die at home, rather than in the horrible NHS-run hospitals!

    --
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
  20. I've worked as a Paramedic by harlequinn · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've worked as a Paramedic under the Advanced Medical Priority Dispatch System (AMPDS).

    Whether you are given a Cat A or B generally makes no difference in the response time of the crew to the scene - i.e. they always drive as fast as they safely can no matter what the emergency.

    Incorrect triage by the communications centre is routine. This is usually not the comcen's fault - it is almost always incorrectly reported information from the caller. Things like whether there is a pulse or not, whether they are breathing or not, whether they are bleeding or not, are often incorrectly reported from panicky callers.

    Or you can get correctly triaged responses with totally different results. You might get a call saying a patient has severe gastric pain which ends up being a myocardial infarction.

    You might get a call from a patient with severe difficulty breathing (which is a cat B emergency) only to find they are having a panic attack or have a sore knee (patient lie all the time to get either free drugs, attention, a free trip to hospital, etc.).

    In regards to the height of a fall problem consider this. A 6 foot plus tall person falls 6 plus feet to the ground when they pass unconscious from standing - yet the person reporting won't usually think of saying they fell six feet (we're talking head impact here - not much else matter until you're falling from really big heights and can start shattering lots of bones). A very common example of misreporting from callers.

  21. Barry Schwartz on our loss of wisdom by epine · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Forbidding the staff to exercise judgement in an emergency call center is the best illustration I've come across in a long time of what Barry Swartz refers to as the "war on wisdom".

    Barry Schwartz on our loss of wisdom

    From the online transcript:

    The truth is that neither rules nor incentives are enough to do the job. How could you even write a rule that go the janitors to do what they did? And would you pay them a bonus for being empathic? It's preposterous on its face. And what happens is that as we turn increasingly to rules, rules and incentives may make things better in the short run, but they create a downward spiral that makes them worse in the long run. Moral skill is chipped away by an over-reliance on rules that deprives us of the opportunity to improvise and learn from our improvisations. And moral will is undermined by an incessant appeal to incentives that destroy our desire to do the right thing. And without intending it, by appealing to rules and incentives, we are engaging in a war on wisdom.

    This is actually a bit of a talking head lecture. Not much sizzle, but a message worth repeating.

    There ought to be nowhere to hide for a bureaucrat forbids the use of human wisdom when the rigid system that ensues makes a total hash of things.

  22. "A flaw in Slashdot submission system.." by kauttapiste · · Score: 2, Funny

    In other news:
    "A flaw in Slashdot's sensationalistic story submission system may have caused hundreds to accidentally RTFA.."