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Open Source Is Not a Democracy

itwbennett writes "A recent kerfuffle within the Ubuntu community serves as a reminder of an inconvenient truth: open source is not a democracy, writes blogger Brian Proffitt. 'The discussion started innocuously enough, within Bug #532633 in light-themes (Ubuntu) on Launchpad, where the order of the window controls within the Light theme were requested to be re-arranged to be on the upper right side of any given window. Light, it seemed, now placed the buttons on the left side, similar to the Mac OS X interface.' The discussion turned into an argument and culminated in this exchange in which Mark Shuttleworth lays down the law: 'It's fair comment that this was a big change, and landed without warning. There aren't any good reasons for that, but it's also true that no amount of warning would produce consensus about a decision like this... No. This is not a democracy. Good feedback, good data, are welcome. But we are not voting on design decisions.'"

31 of 641 comments (clear)

  1. -1 Troll by Concern · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Open source is utterly a democracy.

    Each of us may have our own source tree. If we can convince others to come join us in it, isn't that fun. Those who come and join you are always there voluntarily, either because they feel like it, or you are payiong them to be there. And maybe no one feels like it. And maybe you don't feel like paying anyone. Maybe you are alone there. Maybe you didn't bother to make your tree at all. But you have that right to, at any moment. And this is utterly democratic, and it is at the heart of why open source exists. In fact, this is why it works so much better.

    Shuttleworth has a very big, popular tree. He pays many participants and many others join him for free. He gets to make the decisions in his own tree, because it's his. He can't tell anyone else what to do in theirs.

    Now if it's a Bill Gates product, and you do not like where those buttons got moved to, or i.e. you have a critical bug derailing years of your work, or whatever your issue may be, you will be ignored, or if you are very lucky, someone may even explicitly take a moment to personally tell you, "fuck off, peon." Your only real option is not to be so foolish as to use a Bill Gates product again in the future.

    But in open source, if you so choose, you, or anyone, from the youngest child to Bill Gates himself, can fork Shuttleworth's tree, right then and there. Then you can have it your way. And if you are right, and people care, then people will join you and leave Shuttleworth out in the cold. It's happened many times before. And if not, then maybe your idea just wasn't that great, or that important, after all. Happens all the time. But the result, as with any democracy, is that leadership is largely consensual and generally merit-driven.

    (All those who have never lived under a monarch, dictator, or cabal, please identify yourselves now with cynical comments about your democratic government.)

    So I reiterate, as stories go, this is pure -1 Troll. IT World and Proffitt look like an 8 year old trying to say something "controvertial" about global warming by noting that it's snowing outside. I'm a bit sad that Taco rewarded them by sending them some traffic.

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    1. Re:-1 Troll by mapkinase · · Score: 5, Informative

      May be short summary of what you've said:

      When one says: "this is not democracy" or "this is supposed to be a democracy" he has to specify the scope of the statement.

      Free market system is democratic in a sense that everybody can vote with their dollars between products, but individual companies are not democratic.

      Open source is democratic: one can join different trees or start your own copy, but individual trees (flavors of the project) are not democratic.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    2. Re:-1 Troll by tgd · · Score: 5, Informative

      Thats anarchy, not democracy.

      Look 'em up.

    3. Re:-1 Troll by HungryHobo · · Score: 5, Informative

      You're free to fix it.
      Set up a site, fork the source and run your site as a true democracy.
      Every decision can be put to a vote.

      When setting it up you can even make sure you're no more equal than anyone else.

    4. Re:-1 Troll by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Communism and democracy are not at odds with each other.

      Communism is an economic system. Democracy is a political system.

      It's possible for a system to be both. In fact, a genuine communist system would have to be democratic.

    5. Re:-1 Troll by geekoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's not a democracy, in fact that isn't even a sensical comparison.
      Yes you can take a copy of the ball and leave, but that's not the same as having a way to make decisions in a group.

      Of course, Open Source should not even be compared. One is a way of developing, the other is about how to organize a community. In context, Mark is saying that specific group organizational structure is not a Democracy.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:-1 Troll by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm not sure what you're saying. You're advocating that non-contributors to a project get a vote? I mean, I buy goods made in Europe, that doesn't mean I get to decide what the EU rules on what's called "sausage" are.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    7. Re:-1 Troll by c++0xFF · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What you describe is not a democracy: it's probably closer to anarchy. A free-for-all, with nobody in any position to make any decisions.

      Closer to a democracy would be Wikipedia, where the "consensus" idea is the one that prevails, even though it's a free-for-all. But the label "democracy" only works since everybody works off of the same fork and the leadership is (mostly) hands-off. Once the leadership gets involved, it's no longer a democracy.

      With open-source, a single person still "owns" a fork. No matter how you try to make it fit, democracy doesn't apply when any one person/group can make the sole decision on what happens, and that leadership cannot be changed. Like it or not, almost all open-source projects have a governing body which answers only to themselves. Once the leadership gets involved in decisions, it's a dictatorship. When they're hands-off, it gives the illusion of being a democracy.

    8. Re:-1 Troll by geekoid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I wish I had mod points. Apparently some moderators have no idea what a democracy is. other then 'democracy is good and open source is good therefore anything you talks about how either one could be different is a troll'

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    9. Re:-1 Troll by Shetan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because everyone is a programmer, right?

      If you aren't a programmer and still care that much, you could always PAY a programmer to do the work for you. At least you have the choice. If you don't like the interface changes in Windows 7, you don't have the option to either change it yourself or pay someone who knows how to change it for you.

    10. Re:-1 Troll by quantaman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually open source isn't a democracy, it's a meritocracy.

      In a democracy everyone gets the same vote, in a meritocracy the power is wielded by those who do the best work.

      Meritocracies, at least with open source, actually work better than democracy. In a democracy it's mob rule because most people are making decisions based on very incomplete information. In a meritocracy it's the people who have the knowledge and the ability who decide the direction while the users have very little direct power. Now with a country this could lead to autocracy because the people are trapped in the landmass, but with open source there's no lock-in, thus the leaders can't abuse their power and you get a highly functional political system.

      There's a reason people call Linus the benevolent dictator for life, he can do whatever he wants with the source tree, but he makes very good decisions with that power and that's why people follow him.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    11. Re:-1 Troll by WinterSolstice · · Score: 4, Informative

      http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

      For those who feel a need to have complete control over their own desktops.

      I see the arguments each direction on this one - and my own view is 'whatever happened to letting the users decide themselves?'
      I have spent ages playing with themes on KDE, Gnome, WindowMaker and Enlightenment. If you're not able to customize, just run OSX or Windows and get an OS that someone controls and will actually provide real support for (including paying off vendors to write drivers).

      Linux is supposed to be about the anarchy of self-expression and total control of your machine. Canonical, RedHat, SuSE and many others provide varying levels of 'corporate stability' that you can buy into if you're into that sort of thing.

      --
      An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
    12. Re:-1 Troll by lengau · · Score: 4, Informative

      The point stands, though. Canonical have a team of UI people. The submitter of the bug is not one of them. He can (and has) made a PPA for his preferred version. But he's not high enough in their hierarchy (which probably means not enough of a contributor) to have a say on what Canonical actually do.

      --
      I really wanted to change my sig to something witty, but all I could come up with is this.
    13. Re:-1 Troll by Concern · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No. Anarchy is undemocratic, because for practical purposes, in an anarchic state, the strong rule the weak.

      In the modern world, an open source project is utterly democratic, because everyone gets one voice, and no one can suppress it.

      You own your source tree the same way you own your home or Taco owns this website. There is nothing the least bit undemocratic about being able to have your own code and your own opinion.

      But it is only with open source that you can even copy someone else's code and do it your own way. No one can stop you from doing it your way, nor can you stop anyone else from doing it theirs. Hence, not anarchy, or even close.

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      Tired of Political Trolls? Opt Out!
    14. Re:-1 Troll by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No not everyone is. But you could pay a programmer to fix it for you.
      I find it amusing that FOSS users seem to think that they can dictate what a programmer must due when they are not paying the programmer a single cent.
      If you do not like you have several choices.
      1. Learn to program and fix it yourself.
      2. Pay a programmer to fix it for you.
      3. Convince the maintainer to fix it the way you like it.
      4. Find a project that works the way you want it to and use that.
      5. Start your own project and get others that agree with you to contribute code.

      The only option that you don't have is the option to enforce your will on a project maintainer that you do not pay. You can not treat FOSS programmers as your personal code slaves.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    15. Re:-1 Troll by TeXMaster · · Score: 5, Informative

      Anarchy is direct democracy. I looked it up.

      Well, you looked it up wrong. One of the pillars of anarchy is that man should not have power over man, whereas democracy is based on the idea that the majority should have the power to impose its will over the rest of the population. The only case when anarchy and direct democracy match is when you have a 100% agreement on everything.

      --
      "I'm never quite so stupid as when I'm being smart" (Linus van Pelt)
    16. Re:-1 Troll by MooseTick · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "If you don't like the interface changes in Windows 7, you don't have the option to either change it yourself or pay someone who knows how to change it for you."

      Last I heard, MSFT is a pubically traded company. You CAN buy it and have them change whatever you like in the code. While impractible, so would hiring a coder to custom modify any other OS be to most individuals.

    17. Re:-1 Troll by Speare · · Score: 4, Funny

      Apparently some moderators have no idea what a democracy is. other then 'democracy is good and open source is good therefore anything you talks about how either one could be different is a troll'

      "But... but... it has electrolytes!" "Yeah, do you even know what electrolytes are exactly?" "It's what plants crave!"

      --
      [ .sig file not found ]
    18. Re:-1 Troll by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > You're free to fix it.

      This is assinine.

      Nothing was broken to begin with.

      This is why everyone is throwing WTF's at Shuttleworth. There is no good reason to make this
      change therefore it should not be made. It doesn't improve upon anything and actually breaks
      the sort of UI principles that people like to bludgeon Linux over the head with.

      Basic window controls should either be setup to allow for the easiest possible migration for
      people fleeing the market leader or they should be consistent with established practice.

      Changing them just to be cute is bogus. All it will do is annoy the current users and confuse the new ones.

      The first step after installing Ubuntu should not need to be "install sane theme".

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    19. Re:-1 Troll by bberens · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think people are looking at this all wrong. Who are these people who are so tightly wound about where the window control buttons are that they'd start flame wars over it? My wife uses EEEBuntu on her netbook. She is a casual computer user... internet, e-mail, IM, and that's about it. If I changed her theme and it made the window controls be on the *wrong* side of the window it would take her about 10 seconds to adjust, she might think to herself "That's weird that they're over there now." and move on with her life never to think about it again. People who are that finicky over relatively minor UI changes to a particular theme in a free/niche operating system have serious emotional problems.

      --
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  2. Any software project that is a Democracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is doomed to fail.

  3. We all know what a jackass is.... by rimcrazy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is a Thoroughbred designed by a committee, or in this case a huge community. Good for Mark. Inputs are important but final design decisions should not be subject to a vote.

    --
    "TV, a medium as it is neither rare nor well done." Ernie Kovacs
  4. So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Democracy is a really nice word but it's meaning is amorphous at best. Usually it is used to give the Westerners among us (myself included) a warm fuzzy. I don't want anything made by committee. Open source is more free market than democratic: if it works it survives and if it doesn't it dies.

    This article seems like a gigantic troll.

  5. Reminds me of gaim/pidgin... by Improv · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Some time back, gaim had a UI redesign where they replaced protocol-specific icons with generic ones, in the decision that hiding the protocol is the right thing to do. A lot of us thought that was boneheaded, and some people forked GAIM, others wrote plugins to undo the change, and a lot of us offered harsh criticism of the developers responsible. If it were a democracy, we probably would've voted it undone. Right decision? Wrong decision? We didn't like it, but most of us decided not to walk away from it (either to the forks or further away).

    Opensource provides new possibilities for governance - the ability to fork is something we don't really have in nations (splitting into bits really isn't the same), and with the exception of protocol decisions we generally can reshape our environment as we like (local patches, greasemonkey, etc). By having so much local variance possible, we no longer have our elbows so close to our neighbours and so there's less hazard for technocratic or autocratic decision styles (provided they use licenses that sustain this type of environment - some developers like Tuomo Valkonen prove to be batshit insane and play license games to compound their boneheaded technical decisions).

    With licensing messes out of the way and the ability to fork, the most precious thing for us is mostly time/attention. If we want to fork a project, we're balancing our time and attention versus how much we care over the relevant issue. It's the easiest thing in the world to follow a path paved by the actual developer, while maintaining patches of any size (or starting a parallel community for a true fork) is an ongoing burden. If it's for an important enough reason, we'll do it. If that reason turns out to be not important enough to be worth the bother, all we can do is complain and hope to convince whomever is already doing that work to pave our path.

    --
    For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
  6. Open Source is not Ubuntu by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Okay, Ubuntu is popular. I get it. But it is not the totality of open source. Neither is Linux, for that matter. This example is specifically about Ubuntu, not about open source. Ubuntu is a dictatorship obeying the golden rule; Shuttlewood has the gold so he makes the rules. If you don't like it, fork it or use something different.

    Most open source projects are democracies, although not all votes are equal. Their constituents are people who who contribute something to the project, and the greater the contribution the more say they have in the direction of the project. Contributions come in the form of code, documentation, artwork, bug reports, and money. If you've never contributed any of these things to a project, then you don't get a vote.

    If you have, you get some say, although the person who wrote 90% of the code gets a lot more say than someone who only filed one bug report. People contribute to open source projects because they expect to get something back. In my experience, most developers will put some extra effort into feature requests from people who have contributed something that they consider valuable.

    Ubuntu isn't actually unusual in this respect at all. Shuttlewood contributes the developers' salaries, and they give priority to his feature requests.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  7. Re:People complaining..... by Volante3192 · · Score: 4, Informative

    He did. He said it's welcome.

    That still does not mean Canonical will do what the complainers want.

  8. Re:Why left? by santax · · Score: 4, Informative

    They want to create room on the right so in a future version they can experiment with 'innovative' options where that space has become available.

  9. Full quote by Meltir · · Score: 5, Informative

    As it often happens the summary is rather sensationalist, as I would not dare accuse anyone of actually RTFA, here's Shuttleworth's full response (with which I could not agree more):

    Mark Shuttleworth wrote on 2010-03-17: Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to "menu:minimize, maximize, close" #167

    On 15/03/10 23:42, Pablo Quirós wrote:
    > It'd have been nice if this comment had been made some time ago,
    > together with a deep reasoning on the concrete changes that are in mind.
    >
    > We are supposed to be a community, we all use Ubuntu and contribute to
    > it, and we deserve some respect regarding these kind of decisions. We
    > all make Ubuntu together, or is it a big lie?

    We all make Ubuntu, but we do not all make all of it. In other words, we
    delegate well. We have a kernel team, and they make kernel decisions.
    You don't get to make kernel decisions unless you're in that kernel
    team. You can file bugs and comment, and engage, but you don't get to
    second-guess their decisions. We have a security team. They get to make
    decisions about security. You don't get to see a lot of what they see
    unless you're on that team. We have processes to help make sure we're
    doing a good job of delegation, but being an open community is not the
    same as saying everybody has a say in everything.

    This is a difference between Ubuntu and several other community
    distributions. It may feel less democratic, but it's more meritocratic,
    and most importantly it means (a) we should have the best people making
    any given decision, and (b) it's worth investing your time to become the
    best person to make certain decisions, because you should have that
    competence recognised and rewarded with the freedom to make hard
    decisions and not get second-guessed all the time.

    It's fair comment that this was a big change, and landed without
    warning. There aren't any good reasons for that, but it's also true that
    no amount of warning would produce consensus about a decision like this.

    > If you want to tell us
    > that we are all part of it, we want information, and we want our opinion
    > to be decisive.
    >

    No. This is not a democracy. Good feedback, good data, are welcome. But
    we are not voting on design decisions.

    Mark

  10. No recompile needed by j1976 · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's easy to change even within the current distribution. Steps to fix:

    * Start gconf-editor
    * expand in this order: apps, metacity, general
    * Find entry "button_layout"
    * change it to "menu:minimize,maximize,close"

    The colon separates left side and right side.

  11. Re:Why left? by geekoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You make a lot of assumptions.

    "The vast majority of users are right handed, and mouse right handed. Thus, the scrollbar is on the right side,"

    Why do you assume mouse side on the right determines that putting scroll bars on the right is the most effecient thing to do?

    And no 'It's obvious' doesn't cut it. Data only.

    Why do you assume if the scroll bar is on the right , then windows on the right is more efficient?

    "Putting it on the left for no good reason* just makes you have to mouse farther to accomplish the same task."
    First, you are simple stating 'no good reason' without any backing. Strawman.
    Second, what do you base where the mouse is most likely to be at any moment?

    "* And no, "because Mac does it" is not a good reason."
    No, but why Mac does it may be a good reason.

    ~~~ About your sig ~~~~~

    heh, I love stuff like that. While they may have a good reason for doing it that way, claiming it's green for marketing reason crack me up.

    After they give you your coffee, you should pout it from your mug into a paper cup. To make a point.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  12. User Interface Design by donscarletti · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The old metaphor is: if someone builds a nuclear reactor, it is left to the most qualified engineers. But if you build a bike shed everyone wants to have their opinion heard. I.e. if you want to change the way an IO scheduler or a pagefault handler works, only experienced kernel hackers will bother discussing it, but if you move around two buttons, everyone understand what you've done and wants to weigh in.

    But honestly if you are an specialist in building bikesheds, you can never expect to be taken as seriously as those who build nuclear reactors. Someone just reconfigured Metacity to switch some buttons because they thought it was better that way, surely this feat proves that they are the experts here and their judgement should be deferred to.

    Back when I regularly contributed to Gnome they switched the button order on dialog boxes, I actually liked the new layout but it was just personal taste, their was no objective improvement to be worth the enormous amount of bitching from the community. And in the end this will be the same, I will get used to this new layout, all that will change is a few indignant people will stop using Ubuntu and it will mainly serve to piss off anyone who borrows my computer.

    In a way, the new button order makes more sense, maximise is the opposite of close and should be on the opposite side, but ultimately, it's just not all that important but it serves to attract a lot of attention and impact a lot of people's habits. Surely a software developer who has nothing better to change than this is hardly worth taking seriously.

    --
    When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem