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Best Way To Land Entry-Level Job?
chemicaldave writes "I'm graduating this May and have been seeking a programming position for months. It seems that the biggest hurdle to landing an interview is getting past the doorman that is HR. After reading this entry from Coding Horror describing the lack of programming candidates who can actually program, I can't help but scratch my head. I can program! (See how I put that link in?) If I can't land an interview, then even a short online evaluation of my coding skills would suffice. I just want a chance to prove myself. Alas, sending resumes to companies has rarely led to anything but an auto-confirmation email of my submission. I understand that sending resumes online is not the best method to landing an interview, but I come from a small rural school so job fairs rarely offer anything more than IT support positions let alone a programming position. It seems to me that developers are always looking for talented young programmers. We're out here looking for you too. Am I missing something?"
And stop expecting a big salary shiny salary to do what is essentially the work of a computer janitor.
As soon as you lower your expectations to reality you'll find 'entry level' jobs are almost as common as now-hiring signs at McDonalds.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
apply for the google summer of code project. looks great on the resume.
also, do virtually anything public programming related. write a small open source utility. or a new feature in an existing open source app. or a free app for a cell phone. (100k downloads isn't that hard, and looks good to business folk)
i've been on the hiring side of fresh meat devs several times now. literally anything that shows you can code in a reasonable, organized fashion will put you at the top of the list.
btw, i hope the html link reference was a joke. =P
http://kered.org
Can't stress it enough. Lets assume you do get to an interview. Ooze COMMON SENSE. Let it seep out your pores. You are going to be the guy that doesn't need to ask the stupid questions that should be assumed.
Secondly, show examples of your programming experience. Doesn't have to be used somewhere in industry, just have working, finished examples of your code available either online (if applicable) or somehow available for them to see. Be the candidate that they interview that might not have experience working in a firm, but can still finish projects.
I can't stress just how much those two simple points will help?
Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR. If you have a sub 3.0-3.2 GPA and/or went to a low ranked school you should try to bypass HR.
I would consider traveling to another University's job fair if you don't have good local ones. Here, you can talk directly to engineers/programmers who can gauge your skills far more precisely than HR can glean from your resume.
Things have changed a lot, you can pretty much expect that most of the time you're just going to get an auto reply. If you do manage to get an interview they may very well think that silence is the same thing as telling somebody they didn't get the job.
Probably the best thing you can do is while searching try and get involved in some open source project. It's probably not going to put food on the table, but it will likely land you access to opportunities that you might not otherwise get. And give you something to put on your CV while maintaining your skills.
But just realize that the manners of people doing the hiring are typically lousy and remember that if you get turned down that you're likely not interested in working for a company that represents itself in such an embarrassing way.
Bad economy+no practical experience+little school no one has heard of=hard to get a job. Particularly if your college can't get together a real job fair. Applying to internet postings works more if you have experience on your resume, its a difficult way to get a first job. Especially since in this economy an experienced but out of work programmer may apply for a position normally below him. It was that way after the .com crash too.
I'd suggest using any people you know already in the industry or in companies that hire programmers. And consider taking an IT position if you can't get anything else- I know a lot of programmers from small schools that started out that way and then switched over. If nothing else it will pay the bills for a while.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
Right now is a really hard time to try to get your foot in the door. As a manager, I posted for an entry level position and ended up with a ton of candidates with a strong background. I don't believe in the whole "overqualified" paradigm, so I ended up getting the best candidate -- over twelve years of experience pertinent to my business, glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills.
I got a ton of resumes from college students. Several sounded promising, and I would have loved to give them a chance. But when I have someone with a proven track record who I KNOW will not require only minimal supervision and will bring more to the table... why should I waste my time and money?
Is it fair? Maybe not. When I was in this position almost 15 years ago it sucked. But with 10%+ unemployment it is very hard for the entry level candidate to get his foot in the door.
My solution.... if you are still in school... get a fricking internship. It may not put you at the same level as those I did end up interviewing... but it will help/
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
I'm in broadcast engineering, which includes some programming, but is not programming-specific. I'll let some of those folks address your concerns directly. But speaking in general and in no particular order:
1. Maybe you should have gone to a different school, even if it meant relocating. An internship would have given you some valuable experience, and if you're really good, would probably have resulted in permanent employment afterward.
2. Look at small companies instead of the big ones. Offer to work for beans and rice until you can demonstrate that you know what you're doing. It'll pay off in the long run.
3. While you look for a job, work on an open-source project. Having a recommendation from a well-known F/OSS guru can't hurt. :)
4. Once you get the chance, I can't emphasize this strongly enough: PROVE TO ME THAT YOU REALLY WANT THE JOB. Think outside the box. Be willing to go the extra mile. Don't sit in your chair playing Solitaire waiting for me to tell you what to do next. Show initiative.
Back when I was a teenager, I got my first job in radio by hanging around the station constantly. I took out the trash. I annoyed the engineer and asked a thousand questions. I was willing to do anything to prove that I wanted the job.
I'm not boasting; that's just common sense. But contrast that with an intern who tried out with me a couple of years ago. Unless I stayed on him, he did indeed sit and play Solitaire. When the HVAC went out in the studios, he got up from his job as a call screener for one of our talk shows and said, "it's just too hot. I'll be back tomorrow" -- which left us scrambling for someone to cover his slot.
He still calls from time to time and is amazed that we won't hire him. No, I'm not kidding.
Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
If you are submitting resumes, and not getting any responses whatsoever, then it's likely there is something wrong with your resume (I had this particular problem when I was entry-level; I kept rewriting my resume until I finally got responses).
If you are only applying to big companies, that could be your problem. There are lots of smaller companies around, and they are usually the ones that have trouble finding good programmers. If you really are good, then keep tweaking your presentation until the people where you are applying can actually see that you are good. If you are not actually good, then your roadblock is that you are not good, and you should fix that.
Qxe4
Have you asked your friends and family. And families friends...and so on.
That's were most of the jobs are. Which is a bit sad.
And remember, don't take just any job. You have a degree and you've spent a lot of money on it. The salary of your new job should reflect this.In Norway for instance starting salary for an uneducated is about 280'000,- kr. The cost of 5 years of study is 333000 in loans. 20 years from now your education will have cost you 1'400'000 (5 years of lost income) + 999'000 in down payments = 2'399'000. So if you are planning on paying that down you need to make close to 400'000,- kr a year.
Say NO to unpaid Internships!
I find that jobs are handed out in this order.
1) Kickback (If I Hire X will I be compensated?)
----
a) |----- Family (Am I related to individual [Small form of kickback, sometimes hiring children of political people falls under this catagorey, nothing cuts through red tape like]
b) |--------- Figurehead ( I've seen where people are hired just to be a figurehead ( Astronauts, Politicians, Former CEO's ect )
2) Circle of Friends (Nothing makes them feel better than hiring someone from their Alma mater, charity, ect.)
----
3) Indentured Servitude (Can I pay this kid to do the job what I spent filling up my yacht for my weekend getaway?)
----
4) The Shiny Turd ( I've got a double MBNA Frum Havard. I am Job. )
----
Lying lips sound the sweetest but when their kissing your ass its even better.
5) Needle In the Haystack ( This is you and me )
-----
General Rule For Getting Hired: Don't forget to include a complete collection of your /. postings. I can't think of a better way to impress a future employer than to show them just how funny and clever you really are.
It appears that you missed some level of social networking during school. I volunteered to work for the sysadmin at the community college I go to...I graduate in may and will go to uni in the fall, in the meantime, he put in a good word for me and it helped me get an internship at a sizeable area hospital that will look *great* on my resume (if they dont hire me when i finish uni)
Why is the parent modded +5 insightful? Let me translate this from 'holier art than thou' to English
Way to be helpful, might as well utter that old adage, "You should have thought about it before."
If your experience with programming is having a CS degree, you aren't a developer. You are, well, a computer scientist. The same thing you say? Not hardly. While both deal with programming, it is from different aspects. Computer Science is a theoretical field. It is based around the research of computers and algorithms, around the theory of how to program, how to make them better. Fine, but that isn't what most companies are hiring. They are hiring developers, which is the practical side. They are hiring people who will be told to solve real world problem X and do it quickly. They want people with practical knowledge of how to develop apps on today's systems, not theoretical knowledge of computers over all.
So if all you experience is in computer science, that's a disadvantage. Don't get me wrong, having a strong theory background can help, but it isn't what companies are after. If you feel a bit cheated by your university, well, ya, kinda happens that way.
The problem derives from the history of universities. They have historically been high level, theoretical institutions. Time was, that was really the only reason you went there. When Harvard first started, then called Oxford after the English school, you had to know Latin and Greek just to get admitted. It wasn't a place where you got practical training for a job, it was just the polish to an already fine education that included many purely academic pursuits. Few people got those sorts of degrees.
Ok well our current universities get their heritage from that system. So while we now have more complex jobs that want more training than high school gives, students still by and large go to theoretical institutions. The universities are trying to present more practical training, but aren't doing a great job over all.
Now please note, I say this as someone who works at a university. It is just something you need to be realistic about. Your degree can be helpful, but you need to get practical experience outside of it. The only time you tend to see an "All degree," field is if you are seeking to become a PhD and teach/research at a university. Anything else, you need to get practical experience as well as the degree.
Look for low end testing jobs. Show enthusiasm even for minor things. State that yes, you are happy to work 80 hours a week for the privilege of having a crappy job in the industry of your choice. The point is to get experience so that later you can get the job in a company you actually like.
That posting was two years ago, and he says he's a student. The fact that a student was making elementary errors in C++ two years ago hardly means that's incompetent for an entry-level position now.
General Rule For Getting Hired: Don't forget to include a complete collection of your /. postings. I can't think of a better way to impress a future employer than to show them just how funny and clever you really are.
Does this include postings with timestamps between 9-5 during your previous periods of employ?
You're thinking small. Why miniaturize the laser, when we could instead enlarge the sharks? -John Searle
Correct. I don't know if lalena came out of the womb writing immaculate C++ code or something, but obviously (s)he does not understand the concept of "Education". Everyone has to start somewhere, and that somewhere is usually really basic stuff that years later you cannot believe you ever had a problem with.
If I was hiring for an entry level position and I saw that, I'd think "Hey, this guy knows how to go get answers when he doesn't know what to do." Yeah, sounds lame, but it is unbelievable how many IT guys/programmers that I have run into who don't seem to understand how to use the web (Search, Forums, etc.) to find answers. If they don't know an answer they ask a coworker. If the coworker doesn't know the answer the call a consultant or try some shitty workaround. After seeing this waaaay too often I consider knowing how to use resources to be a pretty decent "Soft Skill".
I hope you don't pay to much attention to this guy. The world is not nearly as dark as he's proclaiming.
I'm going to tell you a fact that you may or not find comforting.
9 out of 10 programmers who are applying for jobs suck. I'm probably being too generous here, but whatever. I've interviewed people at Microsoft, and I've interviewed people at small start ups. Doesn't matter, most interviewee's are just terrible. I don't blame this guy for being jaded. If you had to interview crappy programmer after crappy programmer, you would be too.
BUT if you're the 1 out of 10 who's actually good, than you have a very bright future ahead of you. Companies are always hiring, and if you're truely talented, they'll often hire you even if they weren't planning on it. No good company lets a great programmer get away when they find one.
Entry level jobs have a lot of advantages, in that you're still new, and have no idea what you're actually worth. People are inheritantly loyal to the first company they work for, so they tend to stick around for a lot longer. Plus you get to train them to your style of programming.
Now in terms of actually getting those jobs...
Luckily for you, HR is ridiculously easy to get around. They don't know technology, and you can use that to your advantage. School, GPA, hobbies, cover letter, prior non programming work experience, awards... none of that matters. The only thing they care about is the programming buzzwords you have in there.
Right now, the big one is FLEX, or AS3. Learn that. Put it on your resume. There's a big shortage there, because most people who learn Flash are graphic designers with a minimal programming skill set. If you're a programmer with a minimal graphic design skill set, they'll love you.
Find out what else is "hot" but becareful not to confuse programmer trendy, with what's actually in demand. (Nobody in HR cares about Ruby on Rails).
Just pretend HR is nothing but a search engine that scans your resumes for keywords, and you'll be fine.
Now as far as experience goes. Work on an open source project. There's really no excuse not to. Just think about all the programs you use that are open source, find something that you'd like to change, and than go about learning how to change it. Don't "apply" and ask "what can I do to help". Just jump in and have at it. It's way easier to work on a project when you're doing something you want done anyway.
Good luck!
The best tip I can give you is to make personal contact. Every time you send a resume in somewhere, follow it up with a phone call, and ask whether the relevant person has received your resume. Then, since you already have them on the phone, give them a thirty second spiel about why you would be good for the job. If you have no experience in the area, cite a high level of interest and enthusiasm.
It still boggles the mind how we receive null and void experience resume's from guys that seem more jaded than people with 10 years in the field. If you don't show a positive as to why a company should hire you, guess where your resume will be filed? Right in the circular filing cabinet.
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
Way to be helpful, might as well utter that old adage, "You should have thought about it before."
That doesn't alter the fact that however the point was presented, or however unintentionally up-his-own-arse the person making the point may have seemed to take the more negative stance, it is a very valid point. Networking can help a lot in may cases.
Maybe it is the Sunday evening pub meal and drinks talking (as I'm not usually one to give the benefit of the doubt!) but I didn't read the post you replied to as "this is what I did but you are too late nyar nyar n nyar nyar", but more as "this is what I did and this is how it helped my plans". The OP could still try the technique - there may be opportunities locally for some sort of technical volunteer work that could be used as the same sort of "CV fodder" spring-board and/or to gain a good reference for future applications for paid work. While the relatively easy-to-access college volunteer work option has gone for the OP there are likely to be opportunities to look for at this later stage. There may well be departments/organisations related to the University or its student bodies or local charities that could use some technical help but can ill afford a trained/accredited resource. If you can get in contact with someone like that at an appropriate time it can be a win/win situation: they get the temporary technical help they need but can't actually afford and the OP gets some CV fodder and/or a useful reference, or at least some experience that could be talked about at interview. Having some real world "dealing with users" / "dealing with customers" / "dealing with management" / "real-world problem solving" experience to talk about critically in an interview can make a massive difference to your chances once you get as far as the interview - it can indicate to the interviewer that not only do you know some facts/techniques but you are also capable of applying them outside academic situations and are capable of dealing with the real people in the real world at the same time. (by "talk about critically" I don't mean just "having a go" about the things that were/went wrong, I mean "what went well and why, what could have been done better, how would you approach the same task again if you had the power of hindsight, how were other people/resources helpful or not" and so on - constructive critique of your progress and experience)
Ever if you don't even manage any of that the exposure, through volunteering, to work outside an academic environment might teach you some useful stuff - even if only "I don't actually like X" or "I more enjoy Y and I'm more proficient in it than Z" or "hmmm, I didn't realise I would need A so much, maybe evidence of reading around / practising / otherwise persuing that area will help me jump from the CV stage to the interview stage more easily".
If you have time and can find volunteer work it will rarely be a disadvantage to you - especially if you are otherwise completely unemployed because it isn't like there would be a lot else practical to fill your time with. This in itself helps a CV/application look more attractive - which would you rather interview from the choice of people who graduated six months ago: those who have sat on their hands for six months doing nothing more than scanning jobs adverts and similar, or the people who have done, or tried to do, something practical with some of the time they had available?
To cut a long story short: as pointed out by the responder above both networking and volunteering can help and the two techniques can be mutually supportive of each other. And if you are not lucky enough to find any good opportunities, what have you lost by trying?
As someone who's hired a lot of developers, I can tell you now that going down the Testing path is a terrible idea.
As all good Software Engineers go, Developers Make Bad Testers(tm), and the same goes for the reciprocal. Testing and developing require two completely different mindsets. When we advertise developer positions, we get swarms of testers applying. Unless they've got something else to show for it, their application goes straight in the bin.
The best advice I can give you: contribute to an open source project.
This tells us three things: You actually can cut code, you're motivated enough to see something through, and money isn't your primary motivator.
"As a manager, I posted for an entry level position "
"I ended up getting the best candidate -- over twelve years of experience pertinent to my business, glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills."
"Is it fair? Maybe not."
There, right there, is why I don't teach. I cannot, in good conscience, tell some poor kid to work hard, stay in school, study like a madman, fight for good grades, and work 80 hours a week to put himself through school like I did, knowing that there won't be a job for him.
We all know this economy HAS NO entry-level jobs. The same people who so cavalierly smirk "life ain't fair" will be the same people whining and gibbering the loudest when the young we've screwed over pass the "Mandatory Euthanasia/Nutrition Enhancement Act of 2025."
As the next generation straps me and the whiners into the gurneys so we can watch the pretty movie while the drugs start dripping down our IVs, I look forward to finding the fattest, loudest schmucks bawling the like Glenn Beck and telling them, "It's OK. Life ain't fair," before it all goes black.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
couldn't figure out why a string named string was a problem
You know something? I ran that code through g++, and after adding an #include for cstdlib (to get "system()") it compiled just fine. Having a string named string is actually perfectly valid c++, compilers that can't handle it are just broken.
The purpose of the HR department is to come up with bizarre and absurd reasons why mid-level supervisors can't get the human resources that they need to keep their division profitable.
All the other functions of a 'human resources' department could be done by computer or out-sourced to some distant third-world country. So the alleged humans in the HR department need to constantly come up with reasons to justify their salaries. So they specialize in coming up with weird and irrelevant reasons to prevent YOU from being hired.
My last job interview had a 22-year old ask me to explain a job termination that happened to me before she (always a she) was even born! How do you answer something like that?
BAD IDEA.
From my experience working for a large company, people who start off in test have a very hard time getting out of it.
This is addressed to people at least a year away from looking for a job:
Use /. and other technical and even non-technical internet presences as if they were your portfolio.
Think carefully about everything you post, everywhere. What you did 2 years ago may not hurt you but technical mistakes or off-putting comments made in the last few months may hurt you.
Have a "main" web site that's about yourself that includes links to the sites you want your employer to look at along with your handles on each site. Use the same handle if you can, and make is a reasonably professional one. Include links to work you've done that is relevant to the jobs you are seeking.
Then, when you meet recruiters at job fairs include a sample of your portfolio along with the URL or URL-shortener-shrunk URL on your resume. If you've had a few insightful /. posts that are relevant to the work you are looking for or better yet to the particular job the person is hiring for and others have made positive comments about them, include one of them along with your resume and cover letter. If you've ever had a Wikipedia article promoted to Featured status or spearheaded getting one promoted, consider mentioning this, just be aware that it will give your employer a reason to look at your entire Wikipedia history, so this could work in your favor or against you. What other people have said about open-source projects is good, but this also carries over to writing how-tos, explaining things to other programmers or to users, and generally anything that lets you shine as a person and as someone with relevant skills.
Now, having said all of that, don't overdo it. For a college grad, your cover letter should be one page, your resume should be 1 page, maybe two if there is something extraordinary on it, and your initial "portfolio" for programming jobs should be no more than a page or two unless there is something super about it, such as letters of recommendation from industry or other super-heavyweights or a project that won national industry recognition. Recommendations from The President of the United States or the CEO or CIO of a Fortune-50 company won't count against you no matter how many pages they take up. Everything else should go on your web site, not as part of the initial portfolio. For 99% of college grads, the recruiter probably won't spend more than 60 seconds looking at it, if you are lucky, and that's once he's made the decision to even look at it. In today's economy, most won't even get that far even if you hand them to the recruiter in person at a job fair.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I have to second this statement. I'm also a student graduating in May. I have had four job offers. No matter what anyone says about a recession there are always opportunities in any economy. Three of my four offers came from social networking, the first two came from simply chatting up some guys I met at a conference, while the third came from a friend of one of my professors. The fourth offer is a government agency. If your having trouble finding people to meet, I would say try getting to any sort of industry conference you can. It can be pretty pricey but there are often student rates, and you almost always meet developers at conferences, not the HR staffers. Just talk to people, ask them about what they do, and see where it goes from there. It worked for me. Three times.
#include <iostream>
::Fnord(9);
class Fnord {
int x;
public:
Fnord(int x) : x(x) { }
int operator ()() const { return x; }
operator int() const { return 2*x; }
};
int x() {
Fnord Fnord(3);
return Fnord() *
}
bool Fnord(double x) {
return x > 5;
}
int main(int argc, char **argv) {
std::cout<<x()<<" "<<Fnord(4)<<"\n";
class Fnord Fnord(7);
std::cout<<Fnord<<" "<<Fnord()<<"\n";
return 0;
}
Here's my story, for what it's worth...
I graduated from U of Illinois in Spring of '90 with a CS degree. Unfortunately, I kept my head down in school, so all I had was classwork, and I spent summers working in my dad's business. Both of those added up to zero experience.
I finally got an interview in October based on a newspaper ad, and borrowed my grandma's car to go to it (I wasn't sure mine would make it the 90 miles, and hers had air conditioning - I wanted to look decent.) The interview went OK, and I ended it telling the hiring manager something like this:
"So look, I need a job. Pay me enough to live on and I'll be happy. We can talk about what you're paying me in 6 months after you decide I'm good."
Fortunately, they hired me. 9 months later they gave me a raise from $22,000 to $29,000 a year. Biggest raise, as a percent, I've ever had.
He's graduating now, so that means at the end of his second year he couldn't figure out why a string named string was a problem, ...
If you reject based on this, you will have carefully selected, at great expense to your company, a workforce consisting entirely of people who hide all their sophomore homework assignments.
A recruiting manager who inflicted this on me would not get a favorable performance review. In fact, I would consider it career limiting. You might as well measure how well they glued macaroni to construction paper at age 8.
I agree with others who state that they only hire the best people they can find.
In which case you will select people based on reliable, major positive measures of skills (loops, pointers, recursion), and ignore unreliable, minor negative measures of problems.
The challenge is to find the 0.5% of applicants who can solve the FizzBuzz problem at all. That means 200 applicants to consider per position on average (and a pool of 600 resumes if you need a guaranteed high-quality hire). If you weed out the half of applicants that don't have a squeaky clean Google image, you'll have weeded out about half of the most skilled, which means an extra 200 applicants (1200 resumes total for guaranteed hire). Either you pay horrifically inflated costs, or you are forced to compromise on quality -- probably by self-delusion.