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Man-Made Atomic Clocks the Best In the Universe

An anonymous reader writes "The widespread belief by astrophysicists that pulsars and white dwarfs are the best clocks in the universe is wrong, say two Australian physicists. John Hartnett and Andre Luiten from the University of Western Australia have recently shown that man-made terrestrial atomic clocks take the crown, contrary to numerous claims in astrophysical literature that the natural timing provided by pulsars and white dwarfs is the most precise. The preprint of their paper, available on the arXiv, shows that terrestrial clocks exceed the accuracy and stability of the astrophysical 'clocks' by all sensible measures, in some cases by several orders of magnitude."

38 of 267 comments (clear)

  1. Yeah thats right. by celticryan · · Score: 5, Funny

    Man > Nature... Take that religion!

    1. Re:Yeah thats right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      in dutch: hoogmoed komt voor de val.....

      Religion is something man made, mostly based on something big that happened.... And at the moment they are mostly busy with child abuses, or blowing them selves up...

      But saying that man made the best in the universe, without ever having left our solar system is a little bit naive...

    2. Re:Yeah thats right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Headline is awfully closed-minded of us to proclaim. I'm sure an alien race has a clock far, far better than our primitive cesium-transition clocks.

    3. Re:Yeah thats right. by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Funny

      Doesn't Man = Nature? :P

      It depends on how you dispose of your waste.

      Leaving it wherever: Nature
      Flush: Man
      Flinging it: Funny
      Burying it in gravel: Nature, but with an air of superiority

    4. Re:Yeah thats right. by Gilmoure · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, yeah, where's their patent submission?

      Uh-huh, that's what I thought. Freakin' alien anonymous posters. Go back to Alienastistan or wherever you're posting from.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    5. Re:Yeah thats right. by BarryJacobsen · · Score: 4, Informative

      Man > Nature... Take that religion!

      LOL... I think religion would answer, "when you've created something from nothing, rather than simply measure something accurately, give us a call."

      To which man replies: "We created you, Religion, out of absolutely nothing!"

    6. Re:Yeah thats right. by JWSmythe · · Score: 2, Insightful

          Ditto. I thought it was very egotistical of us to believe that in the entire universe, our way is best.

          There are 9 × 10^21 (9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) stars in the observable universe. Many of the stars themselves are unobservable, but we can see them because they are part of a galaxy that is obviously far away, and appears as a faint dot in our sky. That's only in the 46 billion light years from our lonely rock in the cosmos that we can observe.

          The odds that there isn't another populated planet (or a few hundred thousand of them) is pretty slim. Some are likely to be as advanced as us. The possibility is there that some are more advanced. Or worse, they were more advanced but have long since died off, but their "perfect" clocks still exist and are still running.

          But hey, more power to 'em. If they want to declare us the winners, I won't argue. We're the best. Yea! Humans!

         

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    7. Re:Yeah thats right. by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 4, Funny

      To which Religion retorts: "You can't disprove I didn't create you first, so therefore I did!"

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    8. Re:Yeah thats right. by KeensMustard · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To which Science interjects and says: See this is why you and I aren't friends anymore. You keep expecting me to pick sides and I won't, it's not my argument. But I will say that your much heralded Pink Unicorn Proof stinks as a proof for your own beliefs, because it is at best a caricature, and at worst an attempt to prove a generalised theorem by 'proving' a singular instance: i.e. "Everybody knows that Invisible Pink Unicorns don't exist therefore nothing exists that we cannot see" My son mathematics and my dad Logic would like a word with you....

    9. Re:Yeah thats right. by Gravitron+5000 · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's hard not to be arrogant when you are purrfect.

  2. I hate to be condecending... by epiphani · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But .. duh? I mean, there is a lot of stuff between these pulsars and us. Any change in the local matter density, nearby gravitational disturbances, and there is no reliable time out of a pulsar. We can't honestly think that there is no undetectable gravitational effects between us and every pulsar in the universe, do we?

    Then again, I'm nowhere near being an astrophysicist.

    --
    .
    1. Re:I hate to be condecending... by qoncept · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm nowhere near being an astrophysicist.

      I'm not either, so ... honest question. How does gravity affect light? How much matter is in space? Or, more specifically, in the space between Earth and pulsars visible on Earth?

      --
      Whale
    2. Re:I hate to be condecending... by Deflagro · · Score: 2, Funny

      I prefer to be pedantic instead of condescending. hee hee :)

      --
      Der Tod ist der einzige Weg hier raus!
    3. Re:I hate to be condecending... by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 2, Informative

      How does gravity affect light?

      For one thing it can bend light and create gravitational lenses.

    4. Re:I hate to be condecending... by dbet · · Score: 2, Informative

      How does gravity affect light?

      The same way it affects everything else - except since photons have essentially no mass, the attraction is very weak.

    5. Re:I hate to be condecending... by still+cynical · · Score: 5, Funny

      How much matter is in space?

      Strictly speaking, all of it.

      --
      Ignorance is the root of all evil.
    6. Re:I hate to be condecending... by GKevlin · · Score: 3, Informative

      It is more accurate to say that mass affects space by bending it. Light though it is traveling in a straight line follows the curves in space. A good starter example would be taking a thin rubber surface, like a baloon and drawing graphing paper like lines on it. If you stretch it out and place a heavy metal ball in the middle it will sag and the once straight lines will now appear to curve around the ball.

      Though incomplete this example explains gravity pretty well.

  3. Too much noise in pulsars by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 2, Informative

    The authors say that basically there's too much noise in the pulsars. I just skimmed the article, but I didn't see anything that said why the pulsars are noisy, nor did they answer the question if that noise can be fixed, i.e. using a space based telescope (light or radio), or does the noise come from interstellar sources.

    --
    All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    1. Re:Too much noise in pulsars by Locke2005 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I would assume because the dust cloud around the pulsar that remains from the supernova that created it is slowly spiraling back into it... changes in mass effect angular momentum.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:Too much noise in pulsars by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2, Informative

      I looked at the article too, because I wanted to find out how pulsars are supposed to be so stable. Other discussions about pulsars often point out that as they get older, they lose rotational momentum due to magnetic fields and/or gravity waves, and they slow down. In fact, they slow down drastically from their initial rate over the first billion years or so. (I've also seen articles about "starquakes", where there's a sudden shift in frequency as the neutron star's crust snaps to a new configuration as the spin forces change.) That doesn't sound like a good clock to me.

      The article didn't directly address the issue, other than the term "period drift" (which they didn't seem to define) which I assume could be such a slowdown, and they can somehow factor it out. However, I wouldn't assume that the loss of energy would be particularly linear or predictable. So I'm still as confused as ever on these "stable pulsar" claims.

  4. Relatively speaking... by Hatta · · Score: 5, Funny

    Isn't the best clock going to be one in your frame of reference?

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    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  5. Duh. by Cyberax · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Considering that we're using atomic clocks to detect the rate of _spin_ _down_ of several neutron stars (and of course, starquakes and glitches), claiming that neutron stars are somehow superior is just stupid.

    1. Re:Duh. by astar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      there is a strong ideological motivation for the claim that pulsars do it best.

      consider that humans can do something new in the universe that the universe can not otherwise do

      so this has implications on the nature of the universe and mans relationship to the universe

      many of the resulting treatments crap on dominate assumptions that many people think are true

    2. Re:Duh. by reverseengineer · · Score: 2, Informative

      My first thought was it it seems totally obvious that atomic clocks would make a superior standard. The comparison is monitoring a controlled ensemble of atoms versus monitoring pulses from a star, light-years away, with proper motion relative to the earth. Atomic clocks are also continuously tuned to provide a consistent signal, and ultimately are dependent on atomic transitions that are governed by fundamental constants, while as the parent notes, pulsars are like motors that gradually spin down over time. However, in the introduction of the paper, the authors do indeed cite over a dozen papers that state that natural astrophysical oscillators are or at least could be the best clocks in the the universe, so the authors do not appear to merely knock down a straw man.

      From the paper, it appears at least some of these claims highlight the accuracy of some of these natural oscillators while not taking into account the increased random noise from a stellar source, or the long-term decay of the natural system. It appears that other claims are simply due to the claimants not keeping up with the rapid pace of advancement in atomic clock design, such that whatever super-accurate pulsar or white dwarf an astrophysicist finds is really only as good as the best atomic clocks used to be.

      --
      "FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
  6. Re:Relativity... by Chris+Burke · · Score: 3, Informative

    You need to trust something as the "absolute truth" before you can start saying that something is off-the-standard, because its off THAT standard that you chose already.

    Aside from there being no privileged reference frame to say has the "absolute true time", this has nothing to do really with saying that it's exactly 4:20pm exactly when it should be 4:20pm.

    The measure they're talking about is how much variance there is in the frequency of the pulses over time, and you can measure that without any 'standard' to compare to -- you're actually comparing the signal to itself.

    As long as GPS, Cell phone networks, and TV channels are within a split second of each other, I'm fine.

    They could all claim exactly the same time as each other, but if the method they use to track time is "x many events in a second", then if the event in question does not have a stable period then you'll eventually have to add/subtract a second from the GPS, cell phone, etc time.

    But yeah, for the majority of practical purposes you don't need timing precision equal to that of a pulsar, much less better.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  7. Precision is not the same as Accuracy by bano · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The summary seems to use precision and accuracy interchangeably, they are in fact quite different.

    1. Re:Precision is not the same as Accuracy by Dahamma · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The funny thing is you may be both right (and both wrong ;) The importance of accuracy vs precision for a clock really depends on how you want to use it.

      Do you want to make sure you are on time for your meeting? Then it's better to be accurate. Do you want to build a good DAC? Then you better have a precise clock.

      In the first case, you want to minimize drift from some accepted "true reference value" over time, but the precision of each pulse/tick probably won't matter. In the second, you want to minimize the difference between each tick, but it's ok if it slowly drifts over time...

  8. Re:science journal DUH! by LucidBeast · · Score: 4, Funny

    Well, maybe your atom clock is more accurate, but my pulsar timepiece has way brighter display.

  9. The universe is 13.75 +/- .17 billion years old.. by Dalambertian · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...contrary to numerous claims in astrophysical literature that the natural timing provided by pulsars and white dwarfs is the most precise.

    Well now I know why astronomers have such huge error bars - they've been using pulsars to tell time!

  10. How do they know? by BitterOak · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How do you determine which is the best clock in the universe? Don't you need a better one to run a comparison against?

    --
    If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    1. Re:How do they know? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You compare two clocks built the same way. Since they are basically identical, it's a fair assumption that they also have the same precision.

      If you have a clock with known precision (measured the way described above), you can measure a different clock with it. If the measured precision is worse than the known precision of the known clock, you know the other clock is worse. If the measured precision is equal to the precision of the known clock, the other clock is at least as precise. In order to learn more about its precision, you have to compare it either to a clock known to be more precise, or to (a copy of) itself.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  11. Re:Better than all natural clocks, perhaps. by LockeOnLogic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe aliens do (i'm half joking)

  12. Re:Definition is the Key by MBGMorden · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not really. What we're looking at here is the suitability of something for BEING the measuring stick. You can say that 300 pulsar pulses is a second, or you can say that the time it takes for 2000 cesium atoms to decay is a second if you like (both numbers pulled completely out of thin air, as for the purposes of this discussion actual measurements are irrelevant), and that technically can define a second, but the suitability of that measuring stick is in how consistent those events are. If the cesium atoms are decaying at a far more consistently measurable rate than the pulsar is pulsing, then that is a better measuring stick.

    It'd be like saying that a mile is officially defined as how far a certain runner can run in 10 minutes. The fact that it's the official definition doesn't change that it's a poor measurement method, because of the inherent variability involved.

    --
    "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
  13. General Relativity Simplified by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How does gravity affect light?

    Strictly speaking it does not - it bends space-time and light travels on a straight line which looks bent. Think of it this way - you took off and flew in a straight line from Edmonton, Alberta to London, UK someone in orbit would see that you had actually flown a curved path on the surface of the Earth. Light is the same - it thinks it is following a straight line but when looked at from a different frame it appears as a curve.

  14. This is news? by Angst+Badger · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The irregularity of pulsars has been known for decades now. Most of them are better than your watch, but I've got a textbook on pulsars that's twenty years old and mentions the drifts in their frequency in the first few pages.

    --
    Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
  15. Re:Relativity... by MojoRilla · · Score: 2, Informative

    GPS would not work without atomic clocks. Multiplying even a small error by the speed of light means a big error.

  16. It's one in 10^15 by Chris+Burke · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Most of them are better than your watch, but I've got a textbook on pulsars that's twenty years old and mentions the drifts in their frequency in the first few pages.

    Uh yes it's been known that pulsars do in fact have period drift for many years. However for quite some time after their discovery, their drift was vastly smaller than any man-made clock. This is what lead to the common belief that pulsars are the best (known) clocks in the universe, because for at least several decades they were. Man-made clocks have made tremendous improvements however, and now are better than pulsars. Those super-awesome clocks still experience frequency instability, though. It's just on the order of 1 in 10^17 instead of 10^15 like the best pulsars.

    Which based on the statement that our clocks have improved "more than an order of magnitude, on average, in each decade", while we have not found pulsars significantly better than those previously known, means that it's possible that when your textbook was written man-made clocks were only just surpassing pulsars or possibly even still behind.

    So yeah this probably is not NEW news, but it's probably going to be news to a lot of people who had the (previously correct) idea that pulsars were better than the best man-made clocks. And no you shouldn't have assumed man-made clocks were better based simply on the existence of frequency instability in pulsars.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  17. This makes obvious sense to me by louks · · Score: 2, Informative

    My guess is that pulsar timing is similar in concept to what happened when John Harrison when he tried making an accurate clock for determining longitude.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harrison

    His early clocks just kept getting larger and more complex, but they were never able to achieve the needed accuracy on a moving, rocking ship for weeks on end.

    His solution? He made an very SMALL clock, what amounts to a pocket watch, and was able to achieve accuracy in a variable environment.

    Atoms are always going to be more consistent than a celestial object, because electrons can be less susceptible to external forces like aerodynamic drag, object imperfections and inconsistencies, impact bombardment, proximity of other similar objects, and the myriad other things that can affect rotation of an object larger than, say, a cat.

    Sure, our "man-made" clocks are more accurate, but that is only because nature has better oscillators that we are capable of observing.