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Why Responsible Vulnerability Disclosure Is Painful and Inefficient

A recent rant up at Attrition.org highlights problems with the responsible disclosure of security issues. While some vendors are happy to do their own research and patch reported problems, others drag their feet and make unreasonable demands on a researcher's time and effort, making anonymous public disclosure an ever-more-tempting option. Quoting: "After a couple hours of poking, I found a huge unauthenticated confidentiality hole. Once the euphoria wore off, I realized I had a big problem on my hands. I had to tell my employer's app owners and we had to assess risk and make a decision on what to do about it. After some quick meetings with stakeholders, we decided to severely limit access to the thing while we worked with the vendor. The vendor refused to acknowledge it was a security issue. Odd, considering most everyone who sees the issue unmistakably agrees that it is not acceptable. Now I'm forced to play hardball, yet nobody wants to fully-disclose and destroy relations with this vendor, whose software is somewhat relied on. Meanwhile, I know there are hundreds of institutions, small and large, using this software who have no idea that it has flawed security and who would probably not find the risk acceptable. What can I do? Nothing. Oh well, sucks to be them. ... I've had a vendor tell me to put a webapp firewall in front of their software. Did they offer to pay for it? No. That would be like Toyota telling its customers to buy ejector seats (unsubsidized ejector seats, that is) to resolve the accelerator problem in their vehicles. I've had other vendors demand I spend time helping them understand the issue, basically consulting for free for them. Have you ever knocked on a neighbor's door to tell them they left their headlights on? Did they then require you to cook them dinner? Exactly..."

182 comments

  1. I'd just like to report by 2.7182 · · Score: 5, Funny

    that there is an exploit that allows a user to bump their post up to first.

    1. Re:I'd just like to report by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's really a simple one too. All you gotta do is post first..

    2. Re:I'd just like to report by spazdor · · Score: 1

      We call that a "race condition." It happens on every /. article.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    3. Re:I'd just like to report by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that there is an exploit that allows a user to bump their post up to first.

      nothing

  2. Blow the Whistle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What can you morally do otherwise but blow the whistle?
    If you keep playing ball with these people, they will continue to act in the fashion that they do. Nothing will change. They are basically getting away with it.

    Give them some pain now and let this be a lesson both to them and to others.

    1. Re:Blow the Whistle by TheLink · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And they do get away with it.

      Maybe things are different now with more hackers looking for holes, but back then you could find bugs, disclose them responsibly and privately, have the vendor/site still not fix them for years, and nobody notices - not even the hackers.

      They eventually might fix it in some future release (not even the next major release :) ). Or they replace it with something totally different.

      So nobody's hurt. At least that I knew of, which is the other problem: who knows right? Maybe a hacker did find it and was very discreet. Ignorance is bliss or not ;)...

      It's just like leaving your car unlocked somewhere with the key in the ignition. In certain areas it's a sure thing that the car will be gone the next day, but not everywhere.

      For the more obscure areas, if you do disclose it publicly, the risks to the users go up more than if you had kept it quiet.

      In the long term maybe the users would be better off using something else, but who is to say the other stuff isn't as crappy? It's not like everyone has so much time to try to exploit everything. Even the security researchers don't look at "everything".

      --
    2. Re:Blow the Whistle by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      I think that there is hurt. First lack of acknowledgement itself is a hurt on the trustworthyness of the vendor. If you can't patch it yourselves, or find a way to diminish the threat represented by the problem, than you have a fiduciay and legal responsibility to your organization.

      I'd send information higher in the food chain than you're dealing with. Tenacity may be necessary to get people to understand the gravity of the situation.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    3. Re:Blow the Whistle by Z00L00K · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is no need to play security issues nice anymore, just tell them in general terms that you have acquired knowledge of a bug, not that you found the bug yourself and then provide that info to a suitable magazine or publish it on Wikileaks.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    4. Re:Blow the Whistle by u38cg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't see a problem with this. The vendor has replied that it doesn't consider this to be a security issue, so surely a public notification isn't going to hurt anyone, right? Right? Oh, your customers are cancelling? I thought it wasn't an issue? What can I say, silly me.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    5. Re:Blow the Whistle by TheLink · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My point is the situation often isn't as grave as many security researchers like to think.

      Yes there is a hole. But there are zillions of holes. If the hacker wants in, they've probably already got in via some PHP exploit or some malware infected PC.

      If you've found an exploit in IE or firefox or Windows or OSX or ssh, sure go kick up a big fuss. Or just wait till the next pwn2own competition ;).

      Whereas if you've found an exploit in some ADSL modem router made by some Korean company, and they're not fixing it after you've reported it. Big deal. Hardly any of the routers will still be working 3 years from now. How many of you got pwned because of those infamous bugs that were present for years without anyone knowing? How many hackers would make a lot of $$$$ from exploiting some non-"vastly deployed" software in your company, and get away with it? Would they be better off concentrating on building windows botnets?

      If it's a problem with some vendor supplied app that your company uses, disclose the problem to the bosses. If the vendor doesn't want to fix it, and you're not the boss, it's between the boss and the vendor. You provide info and advice. Of course you don't play down the risks - that's not your job - that's the vendor's job ;).

      --
    6. Re:Blow the Whistle by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's the year 2005. You know that Toyota cars have a programming bug that causes cars to accelerate, and ignore any other inputs (ignores the brakes or switching gear to neutral). What do you do?

      It's the year 1970. You know that Ford cars have a design flaw that makes them the gas tank explode in an accident. What do you do?

      In the 1970 instance, a book author wrote a tell-all called "Unsafe At Any Speed" which revealed Ford's design flaw. In the 2005 case, I'd simply post what I discovered to Toyota-oriented websites and also call the U.S. Government Product Safety Commission. Otherwise Ford/Toyota would never have fixed the problems with their cars.

      I'd also report this software bug, since the vendor seems inclinded to pretend it does not exist. Better to be a whistle-blower and save lives than wait until damage is done. You can't resurrect corpses, but you can warn people while they're still alive, so they can act to protect themselves.

      IMHO.

      Please don't mod me down just 'cause you disagree.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    7. Re:Blow the Whistle by germansausage · · Score: 4, Informative

      Your thinking of the the Ford Pinto which was prone to fires and explosions when hit in rear end collisions. It was first produced in 1971. Unsafe at any Speed was written by Ralph Nader in 1965 about the American Auto industries reluctance to fix safety problems. The car it talked about (among other things) was the Chevrolet Corvair.

    8. Re:Blow the Whistle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Send the vendor an email:

      Thank you for clarifying that this is not a security issue. I can now safely post information about this non-security issue into public websites and ask for workarounds from helpful hackers. This would not be possible for security related bugs as those are best be kept secret for a few weeks, so that the vendor can provide and distribute a fix for it.

    9. Re:Blow the Whistle by TheLink · · Score: 2, Informative

      I wouldn't do that, since I suspect there's a big overlap in the group of vendors who go "nonsecurity issue" when it is one, and the group of vendors who would sue you if you post the "nonsecurity issue" publicly.

      Maybe you could sell the vulnerability to one of those security sites, black, white or grey: http://blogs.verisign.com/idefense/2010/02/casablanca-buying-vulnerabilities-and-digressing.html

      --
    10. Re:Blow the Whistle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this post about CiviCRM (CiviCRM dot org)? There is a simple bug that discloses donor private information that requires no programing what so ever. Given that this is all about maintaining privacy, it seems pretty serious. When it was pointed out to the project lead, his response was: "Yep, we know about that. You should fix it and submit a patch." I am not a programmer, just a user at a non-profit (the software's target customer base). I found out about this hole when one of our users reported it, so real people are really hitting it. There is no great work around that maintains the functionality, so I am not really sure what to do.

    11. Re:Blow the Whistle by AVee · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What can you morally do otherwise but blow the whistle?

      You could sell it, responsibly.
      If you sell the exploit to something like the Zero Day Initiative or iDefense you won't have to deal with the vendor, they will. And they are far more experienced at that as well. That way you'll get rid of your current problem, the issue is dealt with properly and you might even earn a few bucks in the process.

    12. Re:Blow the Whistle by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The danger is if you specification are being targeted. It's easy to scan sites for vulnerabilities or get random virus infections, but it's much harder to target a particular site or organisation. You have to know of a vulnerability in the specific software that they run, which is why people are willing to pay big bucks for information like this.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    13. Re:Blow the Whistle by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      Interestingly enough the Mercury Grand Marquis/Ford Crown Victoria/Linux Town Car has had the same issue as the Ford Pinto, but has not been as well known. Fortunately mine didn't explode when the guy rear-ended me - but then again, the steel frame the Grand Marquis versus the alumni frame of his Mazda B5800 was the primary reason. (The Marquis had nearly no damage; while totaled it was primarily due to age (11 years) and the lack of being able to replace the front seat (which tore off its mounts); while the B5800 was totaled outright due to engine (radiator & oil on the road), body (grill, bumper, etc.), and frame damage.) Had it been another vehicle with a strong/steel frame, it probably would have exploded....

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
  3. company policies vary wildly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) used to thoroughly investigate all bugs in their operating systems like RSX. Microsoft wanted you to pay them so much per hour to review suspected bugs. Needless to say, DEC got our full cooperation and we didn't bother reporting anything to Microsoft.

    1. Re:company policies vary wildly by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Microsoft is still in business. Sad... but true.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    2. Re:company policies vary wildly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft is still in business. Sad... but true.

      Which is fine. That's why there is full disclosure. Oddly enough, Microsoft is on the forefront to call that "irresponsible." Funny how business works like that.

  4. Disclosing Exploitz by poena.dare · · Score: 3, Interesting

    FTA:

    I've even been accused of being a spy for a company's competition (true... ask Jericho)...

    ME: "Hi, you left your headlights on."
    NEIGHBOR: "WHO SENT YOU? DID MY EX-WIFE SEND YOU? ARE YOU SLEEPING WITH HER?"

    WTF? Seriously?

    ---

    Compare how companies badly deal with vuln disclosure compared to how game companies deal with cheats and exploits. Well, MOST game companies...

    1. Re:Disclosing Exploitz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually they don't deal with it. They outsource to another company, like EvenBalance, who produce crap like PunkBuster (aka PinkMustard), which not only doesn't work, but also makes it impossible to record a video, have an fps overlay and so on...

    2. Re:Disclosing Exploitz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This kind of stuff couldn't happen in the world of material goods. The proprietary software industry lives in a different world with different laws. Do you think a manufacturer could sell a lawn mower which they blatantly announced wasn't even fit to cut lawns? When the blades were determined to have a defect, could they say "Here, buy these new ones?" No one would let them get away with it. Somehow, the software industry gets around it.

      Captcha is "frauds." Hehe.

    3. Re:Disclosing Exploitz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Release the vulnerability anonymously. Any other way is more trouble than it's worth and it will get the job done. Either they will be forced to repair their shoddy workmanship or someone else will step up and take their business (which would probably be the best outcome anyway). I'm so tired of incompetence. Destroy them.

  5. Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by unity100 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    To the net. Current dominant dog eat dog capitalist corporate culture makes corporations suppress and hush hush stuff rather than sparing the effort to fix.

    1. Re:Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 2, Insightful
      There are two problems I see with that. First, no matter how well-intentioned your actions, it's not the company that pays - it's the people and companies who have the software installed; in essence making the person who publishes this directly responsible (though not legally) for damages caused by the exploit. The company will just say, "oops", shrug, and move on.

      The second one is the fact that for large software packages, there is no such thing as "quick fix". When you have a few million lines of a code, a regression test is non-trivial. And when you have thousands or millions of customers, you have to regression test before you can release. This process can take weeks or even months.

      And unfortunately, even in the case where the company is being a complete jackass and simply ignoring you (or asking to to consult for free) , the first issue still applies. Say what you will about "security through obscurity" -- the fact remains that it is one of many valid and valuable tools in security. (Lest someone interpret that as an anti-OSS comment let me also add that "many eyes" is another such valid and valuable tool. Not all tools are available to all people/products.)

    2. Re:Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by cbreak · · Score: 1

      The vendor himself said it's not a security hole, so what could possibly happen? :)

    3. Re:Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am sorry, but I do not buy your argument about 2 million lines being closely tangled to a security hole. Usually code is structured into independent modules and especially the authentication/authorization part is encapsulated into a server.

      Second, a few weeks is not that much of a problem - if the customers are aware of the problem, they can apply workarounds to mitigate the problem while waiting for the fix.
      In the worst case they can stop using the software.

      Consider the worst case for the 'responsible disclosure' where the vendor hides their head in the sand while an exploit is being circulated in the black hat community.

    4. Re:Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To the net. Current dominant dog eat dog capitalist corporate culture makes corporations suppress and hush hush stuff rather than sparing the effort to fix.

      If things ran the way I suspect you wish they did this statement would be equally true:

      To the net. Current dominant dog eat dog SOCIALIST corporate culture makes corporations suppress and hush hush stuff rather than sparing the effort to fix.

    5. Re:Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's capitalism's fault, eh? Capitalism typically rewards those who meet the customer's needs.

      How about a flawed patent system that makes it exceedingly risky to get into the software business?

    6. Re:Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      If customers support such companies, then maybe they ought to pay. Why should such customers sanction bad software?

    7. Re:Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      Does capitalism typically reward those who meet the customer's needs? How would we know that?

    8. Re:Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does capitalism typically reward those who meet the customer's needs? How would we know that?

      We wouldn't, because we don't have a capitalist system. We have corporatism. Capitalism would not have "intellectual property", since IP is the economic equivalent of friction. Capitalism and the theories behind it rely on a "frictionless" economy, where free of barriers to entry and exit of any market, if I don't like the current offerings, I can just make my own. IP laws ruin my ability to safely do that. Copyright is bad enough, but the GP's explicit mention of patents makes it effectively impossible to be legally safe.

      For a car analogy, capitalism requires frictionless wheels - IP laws are hot tar on the road that ruin any implementation.

      A billion dollars for a semiconductor fab is a very big barrier to market entry. Fabbing it out means disclosing what should be trade secrets.

    9. Re:Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Because customers can predict the future? Certainly they can't be expected to know about the vulnerability ahead of time, if it hasn't been released yet.. .

    10. Re:Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      I am sorry, but I do not buy your argument about 2 million lines being closely tangled to a security hole. Usually code is structured into independent modules and especially the authentication/authorization part is encapsulated into a server.

      That various vastly, depending on the product and nature of the security flaw.

      Second, a few weeks is not that much of a problem - if the customers are aware of the problem, they can apply workarounds to mitigate the problem while waiting for the fix. In the worst case they can stop using the software. Consider the worst case for the 'responsible disclosure' where the vendor hides their head in the sand while an exploit is being circulated in the black hat community.

      Very true, but none of this builds a valid argument for "just tell the world and let the chips fall where they may".

    11. Re:Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      Maybe I'm being harsh, but the best way to stop bad software is to not have customers buy it.

    12. Re:Dont sweat it. When you find them, just slip it by unity100 · · Score: 1

      come on. you overdid it. 2 million lines tied to a security flaw is beyond scale and measure.

  6. Leak it by Aurisor · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Leak a working exploit anonymously. If a vendor isn't concerned with the security of their users, let them pay the price.

    1. Re:Leak it by egcagrac0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Interesting, but...

      You're then basically telling anyone who might employ such an exploit how to compromise your system.

      My responsibility is to protect my system first, and then to help other people protect their systems.

      I'm not saying that a leak of an exploit isn't good, I'm saying you need to make sure that something is protecting your system from that exploit before you leak it.

    2. Re:Leak it by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That could be illegal, depending how you do it. Be careful with this advice.

      --
      Qxe4
    3. Re:Leak it by schon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're then basically telling anyone who might employ such an exploit how to compromise your system.

      And you're assuming that someone who wants to exploit your system doesn't already know how.

    4. Re:Leak it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm saying you need to make sure that something is protecting your system from that exploit before you leak it.

      If the vendor doesn't fix it, you have to do that anyway. Chances are, you aren't the only one to find the exploit.

      Might as well leak it afterwards. From an ethical point of view this warns other users of the software. From a business point of view, this might be your best bet to force the vendor to fix it.

    5. Re:Leak it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Lol. It won't be so anonymous to the vendor if you were talking to them about it the day before.

      Ok they won't be able to prove that it was you who leaked it because someone else could have found the exact same problem at the exact same time, but you'll be the first suspect on the list and then the police might be able to prove it was you.

    6. Re:Leak it by Tim+C · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And you're assuming that someone who wants to exploit your system doesn't already know how.

      If the exploit is secret, maybe they do know, maybe they don't.

      If the exploit is publicly disclosed, they almost certainly do.

      Given the stated situation (of having a vulnerable system) the former is preferable to the latter.

    7. Re:Leak it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you're assuming that they do, etc etc etc.

    8. Re:Leak it by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the exploit is secret, maybe they do know, maybe they don't.
      If the exploit is publicly disclosed, they almost certainly do.

      If the exploit is secret and maybe the bad guys know about it and maybe they don't, the only safe course is to assume they do know about it and act accordingly. It's like a door: maybe a burglar will come around trying it and maybe he won't, but you still don't go on vacation leaving the front door to your house unlocked because it's not worth the risk if he does come around.

    9. Re:Leak it by schon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Given the stated situation (of having a vulnerable system) the former is preferable to the latter.

      *sigh* Logic. You fail it.

      Given that an adversary *might* be able to exploit a vulnerability, the "preferability" of any given scenario is completely irrelevant - you take steps to make sure they can't. Seriously, saying "oh, if I wish hard enough, maybe nobody will exploit it" is FUCKING BRAINDEAD.

      If a vendor refuses to fix a vulnerability, then you must (by necessity) make the problem as widely known, so that as many of the vendor's customers (both current and future) can apply pressure to get them to fix it.

    10. Re:Leak it by Aurisor · · Score: 1

      So leak it first, wait for it to show up somewhere, and *then* contact the vendor and point to the leaked exploit.

      Maybe I'm just cynical, having been blown off many times in the past. Generally speaking, the only way to get technical attention is to make non-technical people freak out.

    11. Re:Leak it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't release it because then I'll lose access to your system!

    12. Re:Leak it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, how do you decide whether to leak first if you find just one vulnerability per vendor? Or are you suggesting to leak all the time, even if some vendors would have been happy to do their own research and patch reported problems if given the chance?

    13. Re:Leak it by countertrolling · · Score: 2

      That could be illegal...

      The law is irrelevant..

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    14. Re:Leak it by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

      Just because the thieves know how to smash my windows and pick my locks doesn't mean I give them keys to my house.

    15. Re:Leak it by NicknamesAreStupid · · Score: 1

      A classic case of "no good deed goes unpunished" such as this often leads to the logical conclusion - use the crack to pillage the vendor. The vendor is destroyed, the "do-gooder" is handsomely rewarded, and somebody writes a book about it and gets royalties from the movie staring Sandra Bullock, who is aptly cast (see "The Net" & "Demolition Man") and could use the diversion.

    16. Re:Leak it by yariv · · Score: 1

      If the exploit is secret and maybe the bad guys know about it and maybe they don't, the only safe course is to assume they do know about it and act accordingly.

      This is a false dichotomy. There is no "safe" and "unsafe" systems, there are only more or less safe systems. So it depends on the cost of handling the exploit. I could extend your metaphor by pointing to the fact a locked door won't give you complete protection. Do you go on vacation without installing an alarm? Barring the windows? Hiring a security company? The list of possible measures is endless, if you're willing to get extreme enough, and for each one you could use the same argument, so something is wrong. If the exploit is secret you estimate the probability it's known and the cost to fix it and decide according to both of these. It is reasonable the outcome will different for vendor/client (the vendor should fix, the client shouldn't), since the vendor has a lot more systems with the exploit...

    17. Re:Leak it by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      First thing, though: the probability it's known is 100%. After all, you know about it, right? What makes you think you're so unique, so special, so much more brilliant than any other person in the world that you're the only one who's noticed it and figured it out? Nothing. In fact, given the number of people in the world it's a virtual certainty that someone smarter than you found this vulnerability before you. So the probability it's known is 1.00, the only question left is the cost to secure yourself against exploits. Not fix the vulnerability, that's only one option. You don't really care how you do it, just that you've rendered yourself safe from being exploited. That can mean putting up a firewall to prevent access to the vulnerability, or even something as simple as switching to another product that isn't (currently) vulnerable. Then you decide based on the cost to secure yourself vs. the cost to you of being exploited which options are viable (no sense spending a million dollars to fix a vulnerability that if exploited will only cost you a few thousand dollars).

      As far as what I do when going on vacation, in fact I do do a few things. I make sure the doors are locked. I make sure the block-bars are down and slide-latches are in place on sliding doors and windows. I set lights on timers so it won't be so obvious there's nobody home. If I'm going to be out of town for long stretches frequently then yes it might be worth it to get bars on the windows and get an alarm system put in.

    18. Re:Leak it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But if you aren't sure you're able to protect your own system appropriately, maybe it would be better to use that vuln to leave some easter egg on your vendor's site. Makes it hard for them to deny its existence, but doesn't disclose yet what it is (which would be the next step if they don't react). Of course you would have to take some precautions because you would be in breach of your contract, the law, hacker ethics etc.

    19. Re:Leak it by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Right, that's the bigger issue. And really the only cure is going with a solution which allows for the user to export the data to an alternative. Admittedly it's not something you just do at the drop of a hat, but knowing that you can take the data with you even if it's a bit of a pain makes a real difference.

      If a security vulnerability that you consider to be very serious crops up and the vendor doesn't want to fix it, you can at least take your data and play elsewhere, even if it takes several months of serious work and expense. At least you know that you can be free of them in the foreseeable future. Even just being able to threaten to leave brings with it a degree of protection. Some exploits are genuinely worth paying millions to avoid.

    20. Re:Leak it by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

      You're then basically telling anyone who might employ such an exploit how to compromise your system.

      Basically? That is exactly what you are doing. That is the whole point...

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    21. Re:Leak it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, how do you decide whether to leak first if you find just one vulnerability per vendor? Or are you suggesting to leak all the time, even if some vendors would have been happy to do their own research and patch reported problems if given the chance?

      Anonymously mail the vendor with the info, post it to a private forum that mirrors to usenet X days later, automatically, notifying the vendor that the data will become public, no matter what happens, in X days.

    22. Re:Leak it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're smart enough to find an exploit, which I'm assuming you're not personally, then you know how to protect against said exploit via firewall or other restrictions from external break-in. Now internal access is another issue... then you're never secure.

    23. Re:Leak it by yariv · · Score: 1

      First thing, though: the probability it's known is 100%. After all, you know about it, right? What makes you think you're so unique, so special, so much more brilliant than any other person in the world that you're the only one who's noticed it and figured it out? Nothing. In fact, given the number of people in the world it's a virtual certainty that someone smarter than you found this vulnerability before you.

      I have to disagree, the number of people in the world is irrelevant in its own. I haven't found the exploit, but one might assume he is more likely to find one because he devote more time to it, have better access, better understanding, more training or many other reasons. In fact it's not unreasonable that the expert checking his company's software has some advantage over any other person (for each, exists, in this order). Furthermore, one might even consider the motivation to exploit, since the damage to you might not be helping the attacker. The other point I tried to make is that all products are defective to some extent. The fact another system is not known to be vulnerable might be just because you only test your system.

      There are, I understand, systems that are required by law to be secured (health data, for example). Since no system is secure, they should all be closed, right?

    24. Re:Leak it by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      If you read the article, the person who found the vulnerability doesn't work for the vendor of the software. He works for a company that bought and uses the software. He's got no special advantages.

      And yes, many sensitive systems should be closed. The computers at the doctor's office, for instance, should be on a closed local network with only a single closely-controlled interface to transmit data to other doctors, hospitals etc. and receive transmissions from them. I'd put it on a bastion host in a DMZ, or at least on a dual-interface machine with a thoroughly locked-down firewall on both interfaces. Once you're in that environment, the security of the internal machines becomes much less critical.

    25. Re:Leak it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like a door: maybe a burglar will come around trying it and maybe he won't, but you still don't go on vacation leaving the front door to your house unlocked because it's not worth the risk if he does come around.

      Door locks are not much of a deterrent to a burglar. They have a number of well known weaknesses. I only lock mine to keep out stupid high school age burglars.

  7. Hushmail and full disclosure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Use hushmail and full disclosure mailinglist to report stuff like this.

    There's no sense wasting time, do it anonymously, use tor.

    Also while you do it, be sure to post personal information about other full disclosure users so that your email is removed from the official archives.

    1. Re:Hushmail and full disclosure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I concur, they fix it for everybody using their sw or you leak, simple as that. They have a moral obligation to their customers and to the customers of their customers using their sw to provide a secure product, and failing that, fix said product if found to be faulty.

      I'd give them a month.

    2. Re:Hushmail and full disclosure by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or do they have a moral obligation to their shareholders to not spend money if they don't have to (keep up the bottom line)? Or do they have an ethical obligation? Just playing devils advocate since I think the idea of profitability IS a big part of this, and trading shareholders concerns over the customers or the employees seems to be the new morality for companies and corporations. If it is, then what they are doing probably seems just fine to them, and what the OP is complaining about probably seems strange.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    3. Re:Hushmail and full disclosure by __aasqbs9791 · · Score: 1

      How much damage would be done to them financially if it was discovered they were warned of a massive vulnerability and they did nothing? From lost sales to possible actual financial losses stemming from lawsuits from the affected parties.

    4. Re:Hushmail and full disclosure by NicknamesAreStupid · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      What does this mean - "a moral obligation to their shareholders"? And what the hell is this - "do they have an ethical obligation"? I thought we were talking about companies. The part the makes perfect sense -- "devil's advocate." The biggest laugh - "new morality for companies and corporations." The reality -- Corporation, "if you cut me, do I not bleed?" Uh, no. Corporation, "what if I lay down my employees like cannon fodder? Do I not bleed?" Uh, no, but those people you sacrificed do. Corporation, "well, have you no sympathy for an soulless entity that is designed only for its own perpetuation with no regard for anything that it might perceive as an obstacle?" Uh, no.

    5. Re:Hushmail and full disclosure by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      Or do they have a moral obligation to their shareholders to not spend money if they don't have to (keep up the bottom line)? Or do they have an ethical obligation?

      Neither. They have a legal obligation to look after that bottom line. That means working to keep the company healthy in the long term. They could also hire bank robbers and cat-burglars to prop up the bottom line, but the long term effects on the company will be quite negative.

      Anytime a company decides to make short term cuts at the cost of long term gains (to spare the bottom line) they "can't see the forest through the trees."

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    6. Re:Hushmail and full disclosure by sjames · · Score: 1

      They may go down that path, but the "justification" is nothing more than the rationalizations of someone who finds a wallet and decides to keep the money. Of course, that is exactly the sort of thing that leads others to rationalize various cheating on licensing (they're ripping us off, I'm just evening out the balance by doing an extra couple installs). Corporations that understand no value other than direct profit are leading the way to a hellworld where everyone cheats all the time. I just hope that if there isn't a course correction that it at least waits until I die of old age to get to that point.

    7. Re:Hushmail and full disclosure by Luke+has+no+name · · Score: 1

      Or do they have a moral obligation to their shareholders to not spend money if they don't have to (keep up the bottom line)?

      I think that's the point: If the company is going to go by the "bottom-line-trumps-all" ideology, then users get to make it relevant to the company's bottom line by letting consumers know about the company's inferior customer care initiatives.

    8. Re:Hushmail and full disclosure by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      ... for an (sic) soulless entity that is designed only for its own perpetuation with no regard for anything that it might perceive as an obstacle...

      This might be a description for an atheist. Personally, I tend to agree with you by the way. I place people above corporations (even if corporations put food on people's tables). If only because a corporation often behaves like a bullying mob. I made my post because I wanted to see replies by those who would say that the shareholder needs to be taken into consideration, so that this could be debated. I believe the so called need to satisfy the shareholder with bigger and bigger dividends (at the hands of brokers who receive commissions and bonuses even for bad decisions) is ultimately what is responsible for the recession and job losses. And until this is understood and corrected, the recession and job losses in North America, and likely Europe, will continue or at least not recover substantially. Unless we bring these issues out, they can't be solved. Political correctness and not talking about harsh issues only perpetuates problems, it never solves them.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    9. Re:Hushmail and full disclosure by L1feless · · Score: 1

      Using Toyota's recent example of the gas pedal sticking. Let's assume that like any responsible CEO Toyota's has the same goal. Boost the bottom line and keep it there. It will always be in the companies best interest to fix or at the very least address openly a reported personal safety or security concern. If you wait and hold back the general population will be very slow to return to your product if at all. Having a brief drop in sales for one quarter is better than having a drop in sales for 2-3 years plus the potential added expense of a PR campaign to regain consumer trust.

    10. Re:Hushmail and full disclosure by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately this is what happens when a group of people come together in a team/group think putting the corporation first. I think that in this case, corporations behave like their individual members and tend to lie first. Just like a kid who you know just broke a plate: 'did you do this?' 'no, it wasn't me.' Why else would the most trusted auto company in the world continue to lie about the fact that they produced a shitty car, and continue to lie about it until they had their collective noses rubbed in the pile of crap they built. For some reason, companies care more about themselves and their shareholders than their customers. So in the end, and based on these empirical pieces of evidence, it is not surprising that the OP company did not want to fix their security hole. I think until this type of thinking is fixed, we'll be screwed in North America. It is the reason why companies are using virtual slave labour, sweat shops, and other Metropolis-like work forces in other countries, and why I don't believe we will see the North American work force recover for a long time at least.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    11. Re:Hushmail and full disclosure by L1feless · · Score: 1

      well said.

  8. Are those really problems with res. desclosure? by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 4, Insightful

    None of those problems listed seem to be with responsible disclosure. It's your job to responsibly disclose. And you should protect their secret for a while. After that, it's not really your problem if they won't or can't act.

    I agree there are also issues here with relying on code that you now know has security issues. But those aren't anything to do with responsible disclosure either. If you posted it to the internet you'd still have issues relying on them. Same as if you didn't tell anyone.

    Look at it this way, when you tell a vendor what's wrong and try to help them fix it, you're really doing it to help yourself. Your doing it because you believe it will be less work than changing your entire system to not rely on their code.

    As an aside, I don't get a big rush when I find a problem in someone else's code. Maybe I'm just old and jaded now, but I'm just trying to get everything to work well, finding that someone else didn't do their job doesn't usually make my situation any better (as you indicate here), so I don't relish it.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    1. Re:Are those really problems with res. desclosure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another thing. Why would your company be so keen to maintain relationships with this vendor when it's obvious that they don't really value you? If I were your company, this incident would make me re-evaluate whether there aren't other options as far as relationships go. Unless these folks have a monopoly on functionality, there are probably other vendors who would be happy to work with you to make an economic transition. Anyone with half a brain would make it worth your while to have relationships with them instead of their competition.

    2. Re:Are those really problems with res. desclosure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Because you might have to change business practices or requisition more software, think of the VP who chose the vendor losing face, that can't happen now. Oh and it would cost the company more time and money, retraining and learning things are so unproductive - the board won't be impressed! At least with a security hole you can blame it on outside forces, and if it is a confidentiality hole, the customers have already paid you .. just hope it doesn't get exploited .. let the customers bear the cost of restitution.

    3. Re:Are those really problems with res. desclosure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your main responsibility is to report to your employer both the technical issue *AND* the lack of responsiveness on the part of the vendor. If you make your point well, the vendor's lack of sensitivity to security issues will be brought up at a higher level, where it matter$ more. Going public with your findings will likely hurt your own company's products and is likely to get you fired. (If there is no response within your own organisation, I'd say you want to leave ASAP.)

    4. Re:Are those really problems with res. desclosure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...It's your job to responsibly disclose...

      No. It is his job to make sure he isn't knowingly letting his system remain insecure.
      Disclosing the issue isn't his job, but is just so he doesn't have to work around the issue. He might back it up with some morality of protecting other users, although that should be the responsibility of the vendor.
      If they don't even acknowledge it is an issue, then they are saying that public disclosure should be fine. That is how I'm jaded, but not because of age.

    5. Re:Are those really problems with res. desclosure? by dissy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      As an aside, I don't get a big rush when I find a problem in someone else's code. Maybe I'm just old and jaded now, but I'm just trying to get everything to work well, finding that someone else didn't do their job doesn't usually make my situation any better (as you indicate here), so I don't relish it.

      Additionally this guy has the added burden of relying on this company for what sounds like a major part of their IT infrastructure.

      If the software is extremely specialized then it is possible there might only be a couple hundred customers.
      An anonymous leak soon (Say within 5 years) if this guy mentioning that he found it would be a simple conclusion to jump to to place blame for an anonymous leak.

      Remember, a company is not a court, so evidence and logic are not a requirement in producing an outcome.

      I would probably hand the info over to a big whitehat group (anonymously if need be, thou an explanation of the situation will probably get the same response) and have THEM claim discovery and report it to the vendor using responsible disclosure.

      This way the group can say "You have ___ weeks to release a fix if you like, but on ____ date we will release this exploit to the public."

      It helps in the emotional/illogical areas too, as someone at the vendor whom did correctly suspect the customer, will have a much harder time convincing others of that when such a large face is actively and directly taking the blame.
      Additionally the vendors other customers will have no reason to have negative thoughts against this one, if there is an active community in any shape around this software.

      Where I work, we have a similar situation with the software package that runs our enterprise.
      There is still a couple yahoo message groups where customers can post and talk with each other for ways of solving problems. The vendors staff even monitor the group, and official bug fixes have resulted simply from a single IT guy posting a complaint.

      It is a wise idea to remain in good standing with such a community, whom might not realize their soon to be public knowledge security problems are the fault of the vendor for not fixing them, and not this customer for being the messenger of bad news.

    6. Re:Are those really problems with res. desclosure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with you.

      Even more so, it seems like this guy wants to justify the need to put together enough information for others to exploit the security hole, but it's too much effort to do the EXACT same thing for the company. After all, if you have to put forth the effort to explain how the exploit works (or how to replicate it at least), then you've already done exactly what the company asked for, but now you're releasing it to the public instead of the company so they can fix it.

      The problem is, for any large software product, an extremely vast majority (90-98%) of all reported bugs or security issues just simply aren't. They either turn out to be user error, or a setting that the user set that is causing the problem, nonexistant, or you aren't able to replicate it. An enormous amount of resources are spent trying to track down issues because the people submitting them haven't a clue. Of course, how many people would be willing to agree to pay for the time the company spends researching your issue if it turns out to be not the software's fault? Not many. Asking the person reporting the problem to provide enough information to replicate the problem, or explain it in detail would/should cut out a large portion of the false-reports, and allow the company to really focus on the problems that can be fixed. Unfortunately, many of these types of issues simply can't be handed off to some junior level programmer to research and requires a more senior level guy that is familiar with the internal workings of the product, and it get extremely expensive.

      That's not an excuse, and I'm definately not condoning not fixing stuff that is broken, but at least try and understand that while you may know what you are talking about, these guys probably had to deal with 99 other bafoons that had no clue, and they all claim a major ground breaking bug/security issue that has to be FIXED NOW.

    7. Re:Are those really problems with res. desclosure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You PAY these people for support with their software? Then you're a little bit paying for the privilege to fix their program. Really now, a corporate apologist?

    8. Re:Are those really problems with res. desclosure? by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 1

      I'd say you're usually paying more than a little bit.

      But again, you're about a "my vendor sucks" problem, not a responsible disclosure problem. Irresponsible or no disclosure won't change the problem that your vendor sucks and you now know you are relying on a product with known security flaws.

      --
      http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
  9. A misunderstanding of responsible disclosure ... by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 4, Insightful

    IMO, RD is supposed to entail a good-faith effort to notify the vendor and delay public disclosure for a reasonable amount of time (i.e. not dragging their feet) while they push a patch. If you notify the vendor, preferably including a test case, and they refuse to acknowledge that it is a security issue or suggest ridiculous fixes, that's the end of your RD duties. Ethically speaking, you are in the clear. RD requires you to give them a chance to fix the problem before publicizing it, nothing more.

    Now, vendor/rube relations are another matter entirely that are distinct from your duty of responsible disclosure. I don't envy being in the situation where you fear their wrath for disclosure but want to do the right thing.

  10. wow by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Funny

    No. That would be like Toyota telling its customers to buy ejector seats (unsubsidized ejector seats, that is) to resolve the accelerator problem in their vehicles.

    Where can I sign the petition to make that happen?? O_O

    --
    Qxe4
    1. Re:wow by magus_melchior · · Score: 2, Funny

      You could ask M5 to mod your car.

      The roof mod is extra, though.

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    2. Re:wow by __aasqbs9791 · · Score: 2, Funny

      If they amp the power enough, the roof mod will come free with the first use.

    3. Re:wow by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      I don't know how free your skull will consider it.

    4. Re:wow by dkf · · Score: 1

      Depends on whether your name is Buster...

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
  11. did you post this in the wrong place? by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 2, Funny

    Or perhaps this is some kind of steganographic secret message you are passing onto one of your field agents?

    Your response has nothing at all to do with the situation here.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    1. Re:did you post this in the wrong place? by medcalf · · Score: 1

      Plus, his response is so wrong as to be not worth rebutting. It has the intellectual depth of a 5 year old's crayon drawings, and about as much relationship to reality. Maybe not quite as much relationship to reality.

      --
      -- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
  12. Not the same thing at all... by SwashbucklingCowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "I've had other vendors demand I spend time helping them understand the issue, basically consulting for free for them. Have you ever knocked on a neighbor's door to tell them they left their headlights on? Did they then require you to cook them dinner? Exactly..."

    You say it happens, they can't reproduce it. Thus, you have to help them understand what it is you're doing. It's not unusual for people to think they've found a bug when they in fact have not.

    1. Re:Not the same thing at all... by drdrgivemethenews · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. The original poster is either clue deprived or not describing the situation accurately.

    2. Re:Not the same thing at all... by Aladrin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree, too. There is a certain amount of working together that is expected when you report a bug. Even once the bug is identified and reproduced, you should still be willing to help them verify that the bug is fixed as well.

      It's even in -your- best interest to do so, so that the bug gets fixed properly and quickly.

      I've done this before with thirdparty libraries that had issues with my code. I'll even admit that about 1/4 of the time, it was actually my fault and not a bug in their code after all. And sometimes, the bug fix was extremely simple and I had to jump through hoops to prove that it existed... That's just life.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    3. Re:Not the same thing at all... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      not understanding != not reproducible

      For all you know, he submitted a 2-page e-mail detailing the problem.

    4. Re:Not the same thing at all... by mjensen · · Score: 1

      I guess the flaw is only important enough for submitter to complain about, not to actually do something about. Most likely bad phrasing/understanding by submitter or developer.

      When in IT, weekly I'd get a "My document won't print", when it sometimes gets traced back to "Actually, you can't open your document".

      I've had problems with some open source projects, and between my explanation or the developer understanding, it was "can't reproduce". Then I submit a test case that repeats it all the time, and developer goes "Oh, that way. Yup, broken", and the fix comes in soon.

    5. Re:Not the same thing at all... by SwashbucklingCowboy · · Score: 1

      The length of the submission isn't the concern, the quality is. And even if it was a high quality description that does not mean he included everything needed to reproduce the problem. Often times a user does not understand the implementation enough to know what is relevant and what is not.

    6. Re:Not the same thing at all... by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      You say it happens, they can't reproduce it.

      They say they can't. How hard have they tried? Have they really tried at all? Chances are, it's been thrown into their bug tracking system (if they have one) and some tester has spent 5 minutes poking at it, then gone back to working on paid projects instead.

      Thus, you have to help them understand what it is you're doing.

      "have"? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

      If you believe that you have a repeatable exploit, and you've given it to the vendor, and they say it's invalid, then what harm could you do by releasing it? Either they're right, or they need to be shown that they're wrong.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    7. Re:Not the same thing at all... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      yeah. At least they're interested.... Half your work is done there... now all you have to do is prove to them that the breakage is because of what they're doing, not because of what you're doing.

      If they're willing to work with you to fully understand the bug, then chances are that they'll throw better money after good and actually fix it once they understand what went wrong.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    8. Re:Not the same thing at all... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Or perhaps they're just not trying very hard. I say if you have the time, help until it's clear they're just not trying. Then suggest that if they want more help, you'll need all of the source and perhaps send them your hourly rates. If you don't have the time, just say so and leave it with them or tell them how much they'd have to pay for you to make time.

    9. Re:Not the same thing at all... by iainl · · Score: 1

      If it's like any vendor I've ever dealt with, they're not "demanding" the article writer spends time helping to understand the issue. They're quite reasonably stating the fact that they need further information in order to fix it.

      Give the information, and you'll probably get one. Don't give the information, and fail to be surprised when they don't. It's up to you, really.

      --
      "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
  13. Educational instituion? by The+Second+Horseman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm betting this is software being used in an educational or other not-for-profit environment. If so, one thing you have going for you is that employees in that sector actually talk to people from other institutions. If disclosing your work-around wouldn't just give away the entire problem, I'd actually publish what you did to protect the application. That way, your peers can decide if they want to do it and get a head start. It puts the vendor on notice that someone is going to notice this problem eventually.

    If your workaround gives away the entire problem, that's more difficult. Assuming education / not-for-profit, I'd start by talking (verbally) to peers at schools using the application, and see if you can get some traction that way. A group of pissed-off customers might be more effective. Your CIO may be participating in regional or national organizations, and may be able to talk to his or her peers about the issue as well.

    If you just release it on your own in an "in-your-face" way without your bosses signing on, they could decide to take it out on you if the vendor gets pissed or tries to go after you for violating some gag clause in the licensing agreement (some have them) or damaging their business. They shouldn't, but I can think of a couple of really stupid, obnoxious vendors that might.

  14. Large corporate vendor products by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RMS, SAS whatever vendor your working with understand all these programs are filled to the brim with security holes that never go mentioned or patched. EVER. and never will.

    As a company your only method security is to 100% limit who has access to 3'rd party vendor programs that contain your data.

    Just pretend (its not really pretending is it?) that you are sharing admin user access to every single user of your system and work from there...

  15. try the press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Send you information to the press and ask for anonymity. Watch them jump to solve your problem. Try dgoodin@theregister.com.

  16. That's what *CERT is for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    US CERT, or your local version. They can wield the clue-bat on your behalf.

  17. Re:A misunderstanding of responsible disclosure .. by pdwalker · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately, the vendor could take it out on the company.

    "Oh, our software maintenance fees have increased by 100% (for you only)"

    No, since their company was so dependent on Vendors software, they couldn't realistically do that without paying the consequences later.

    Two suggestions:

    1/ find some kind of fix, then post the exploit anonymously

    2/ report the bug to a third party who will then approach the vendor with a "fix in x days or else we post to the world" proposal. This way, the original party can avoid the potential backlash from Vendor

  18. Is it an issue or not? by S77IM · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The vendor refused to acknowledge it was a security issue.

    Then it's either a feature or a regular old non-security-related bug, and I don't see the problem with announcing it to everybody. Right?

      -- 77IM

    --
    Student: Is it true that the foundation of the universe is paradox?
    Master: Well, yes and no.
    1. Re:Is it an issue or not? by jkroll · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The vendor refused to acknowledge it was a security issue.

      Then it's either a feature or a regular old non-security-related bug, and I don't see the problem with announcing it to everybody. Right?

      If you are really certain it is a valid issue, take a look at their marketing page and find out who their reference customers are. If you can get some of their important customers to raise this issue as well, you may have better luck getting some action on it without disclosing the vulnerability to the world at large.

    2. Re:Is it an issue or not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Contacting a vendor's other customers with a security vulnerability seems like putting yourself in litigation hot water....

  19. Is your vendor under any obligation to you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the vendor's software is defective and fails to acknowledge (and thus fix) the vulnerability, then sue them. The legal system is not just for scumbags who try to get rich through frivolous lawsuits. It's actually meant to help people in your situation. Discovery may even give you an opportunity to warn other users of the software without breaking the law yourself.

  20. Sue Them by Herkum01 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Sue them, take them to court where bad publicity, will scare the hell out them into settling.

    As long as they view it as a technical issue, they are not interested. If they view it as a sales/marketing nightmare they will come to the table in a hurry. As for further cooperation, they will suck it up because other customers will see how they react as to how they will treat the company.

    Like spousal abuse, as long as a bad working relationship can be hidden they will get away with it other individuals/companies. They only way to address the issue is to make their dirty laundry public.

    1. Re:Sue Them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Getting sales involved could work well. Call there sales/marketing and say you are interested in there software, but heard rumors about some security problem. If they deny, say you will call around to figure out where the rumor came from. They may take the risk that you "find" the source of these rumors, but they won't risk that you end up telling other potentional customers about it.

    2. Re:Sue Them by SwashbucklingCowboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Sue them

      On what grounds? They didn't do what he wanted them to do?

    3. Re:Sue Them by haruharaharu · · Score: 1

      Sue them? And how exactly do you expect to maintain a business relationship?

      --
      Reboot macht Frei.
    4. Re:Sue Them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you want to waste lots of companies' money, call lots of companies' sales/marketing and say you're interested in their software, but have heard rumors about some security problem... Bonus points if you cause people to get fired.

    5. Re:Sue Them by sjames · · Score: 1

      The product is not fit for the purpose it was sold for?

  21. not a real help. anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I had this kind of problem about 15 years ago. It was a real pain. My problem was that I wasn't able to publish my findings as the vendor made pretty clear he'd sue me over that. So I reviewed my requirements on software and found a solution I haven't heard of before - Open Source. Since then I use Open Source and though it has some minor drawbacks I don't regret this step.

    cb

  22. There is a great forum for fixing such bugs by medcalf · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The shareholder meeting. Simply note that you reported bug # XXXX some months ago, and it has not been acted on. You wouldn't mention it except that it's a security vulnerability that, if disclosed, would tank the share price for the company. So in that light, when will this vulnerability be addressed? Let everyone else take it from there.

    --
    -- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
    1. Re:There is a great forum for fixing such bugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, but how many shares of the company did you need to buy in order to get a seat at their shareholder's meeting? Then the plane ticket to get to the meeting, etc. Not really something most people are going to do - especially the submitter who couldn't even be bothered to help them reproduce the problem.

    2. Re:There is a great forum for fixing such bugs by 49152 · · Score: 1

      I do not know the law in his jurisdiction, but here (and almost everywhere else) it would be enough with one (1) share.

      Of course you have to foot the bill yourself to travel there.

    3. Re:There is a great forum for fixing such bugs by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      The shareholder meeting. Simply note that you reported bug # XXXX some months ago, and it has not been acted on. You wouldn't mention it except that it's a security vulnerability that, if disclosed, would tank the share price for the company. So in that light, when will this vulnerability be addressed? Let everyone else take it from there.

      In that same vein, get the company to include a (responsible) disclosure policy in its handbook.

      It'd make a handy stick to beat recalcitrant vendors with:
      "Here's the problem, here's my company policy on disclosure. You choose what happens next."

      (Of course, this assumes your company is willing to let you disclose anything)

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    4. Re:There is a great forum for fixing such bugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, that would be total FUD. There has never been a company whose stock dropped because of a security vulnerability.

    5. Re:There is a great forum for fixing such bugs by VulpesFoxnik · · Score: 1

      Yeah, just look at Microsoft. They have them all the time and no one seems to care.

      --
      RES PUBLICA NON DOMINETUR
  23. Dump the vendor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the vendor does not respond...
    1) Do not install update, notify all that it does not pass the QA requirements. (Think SOX)
    2) Send vendor a bill for services rendered.
    3) Get on vendor's forum and post the issue.
    4) File a breach of contract suit with the vendor.
    5) Find new vendor.

    And WHY do not have good firewall installed first? That is your responsibility.

  24. Patch it first by junglebeast · · Score: 1

    If your company sold them security software with a bug, your company should first fix the bug and then give them a patch for it (free of charge).

    Not tell them that it's bugged and ask them to pay you to fix it. If they don't want to accept the patched version, that's their problem, but most of your other customers will.

  25. Responsbl disclosure is Security Through Obscurity by dragisha · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And we all know what it really is.

    Protect your system as good as you can, firewalls, backups, whatever, or just rely on your own obscurity, and publish!

    Act surprised, act I-told-you-so, be outraged with whatever happens, and then - in few days - install a patch.

    --
    http://opencm3.net, http://www.nongnu.org/gm2/
  26. Buy good WAF then blow the whistle by mother_reincarnated · · Score: 1

    Frankly the web app firewall idea is the most appropriate solution to this entire category of problem for your organization. You should want one, and this is just one more datapoint as to why.

    Secondly, if they won't fix the problem (and I don't mean won't do it quickly, I mean won't do it at all) then I'm sure someone else will discover it and anonymously disclose it. ...Cough... Right? ...Cough...

    1. Re:Buy good WAF then blow the whistle by mother_reincarnated · · Score: 1

      Full disclosure: I work for a company that, among other things, makes a commercial Layer 7 firewall...

    2. Re:Buy good WAF then blow the whistle by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Do you know what a web app firewall actually does? It's practically a proxy server that sanitizes the inputs, meaning for each application you have to make custom rules which are more involved than just "allow 0.0.0.0/0 to 192.168.1.1 port 80". Especially if you have a very custom-built application, for each data input (each field) you will have to specify what form of data it is and what the valid ranges are. This SHOULD be done within the application already by the developers, there is no reason to go out of your way to buy software and practically rebuild the whole front-end and validation of each of those pages, you might as well build the back-end as well and just do the whole application yourself.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    3. Re:Buy good WAF then blow the whistle by mother_reincarnated · · Score: 1

      There is plenty to argue against your FUD*, but in reality though I wasn't recommending a WAF in the traditional preemptive protective capacity.

      If you have a good WAF then when you, the person responsible for security, discover a vulnerability you, the person responsible for security, can patch it in minutes.

      Even if your applications are completely in-house developed it still takes time to get the vulnerability fixed and it's not within your control how long that process takes! With a WAF you take all of that process which you cannot control and move it out of your critical path.

      Even if you use an app firewall for nothing else it is a security tool well worth having.

      *Actually good ones do a lot more than that, and can do a lot of what you claim without manual configuration. Additionally they provide layers of protection that no existing security device can offer even without customized policies. I've heard arguments like yours before, and I apologize for generalizing, but only from OSS zealots. This is one market where the commercial offerings are leaps and bounds better. This is because of a PCI DSS 6.6- The organizations that had to comply were the ones who could afford to purchase a commercial solution, but not the luxury of time to wait for an OSS to develop. As a side effect the commercial market has matured a lot over the past 24 months.

    4. Re:Buy good WAF then blow the whistle by profplump · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that the WAF doesn't introduce its own security issues. I've seen more than a few that can be remotely crashed, thus DoSing everything behind them, and I've even seen one that can be exploited to run arbitrary code -- by adding the "security" of a WAF you might just be adding an Internet-exposed, remotely-exploitable host that not only has access to your internal app servers, but also all their input and output, and the ability to arbitrarily manipulate both.

      And then there's all the regular sysadmin issues, like having them be fast enough to run all the regexes you've got installed without slowing down the app. Or how far toward the edge of the network you have to push your encryption setup, and what additional risks that longer, harder to monitor path for unencrypted data means for your overall security.

      I'm not saying WAFs worthless -- they can be useful -- but it's naive to suggest that simply adding another "security appliance" necessarily increases security overall. But hey, if it helps you sleep better to call me an OSS zealot for thinking beyond the marketing blather on a WAF brochure go ahead.

    5. Re:Buy good WAF then blow the whistle by mother_reincarnated · · Score: 1

      Well, you're either naive and misinformed, or you're trying to be dense.

      First of all we're talking about a specific use case for a WAF- not WAFs as the panacea of network or application security. I don't think I ever stated that simply adding another "security appliance" necessarily increased security overall. I did say that with a WAF you can patch holes like this yourself. Do you really disagree with that?

      That said:

      Nothing you posted is an inherent problem with WAFs (over firewalls, routers, managed switches, IPS', etc.) besides them needing to decyrpt SSL. (Which BTW if you send your traffic encrypted through your IPS, good luck with that!) On the SSL front- It's far more secure to centrally manage your public certs on a hardened device than have it on every backend you own. Terminating SSL (full strenght, public cert) is an insecure and inefficient practice that most sane shops abandoned years ago. If you have physical security concerns you can always re-encrypt your traffic, and do it with certs that are not signed by a public CA. [Though I would suggest that if someone could create a span port or plug something in inline with an uplink, you have far larger problems then a WAF to worry about. If you are mandated to encrypt on the wire, sorry.]

      Like anything else it's about selecting the correct one and using it properly. You need to size if for how you're going to use it: If you want to run RegEx matches (inherently very expensive things) against all your traffic in both directions, hell yeah it's going to need to be a bigger solution. However your thinking that a WAF primarily relies on RegEx's shows either that you don't know what you're talking about, or you're just throwing FUD. A WAF is not just a fancy IPS. Most of what they do, including most of the things we'd be talking about for patching an auth based security hole in an application, don't involve pattern matching, none the less full RegEx matching, at all.

      And it's not for going beyond the marketing blather it's for spouting off about mostly non-concerns, blowing others out of proportion, and acting like it's really some different beast to adding a router, managed switch, IPS, or Firewall- any of which need to be sized properly, evaluated for potential security vulnerabilities, and intelligently architected.

      However the point remains valid: If the OP had a WAF, he could almost assuredly fix this problem himself in a few minutes. Unless you are proposing that I'm incorrect and you have a better solutions, what are we talking about here?

  27. Suck it up by Vladus2000 · · Score: 1

    At this point, I wouldn't do anything. If this security vulnerability becomes public from an anonymous source, the vendor will blame you. That is the issue with disclosing it to the vendor, once you have done so, your choices are bend to their will if they won't play ball, or ruin the relationship. I would recommend working towards getting rid of the vendor, as they are leaving your system insecure and not willing to fix the issue. Until that point, suck it up.

  28. Responsible vulnerability disclosure rules by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they think this is not a security issue, then nothing stops you into going public.
    This is how responsible vulnerability disclosure rules are, and will be.

  29. Expose it by shentino · · Score: 1

    ...anonymously.

    It's only a matter of time before the black hats find it, so by publicizing it and forcing it in the vendor's face they'll see it for what it is.

  30. Lawsuit? by RoFLKOPTr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't know what kind of terms are written in your contract with these people (or how big your company is compared to the software company), but maybe your company can sue them for failing to properly maintain their software. Right now, find other companies that use this software and tell their administrators about the vulnerability and let the pressure build on the software company. Give them a little more time to either get their shit together or blow you off and then threaten lawsuit. It would be irresponsible of you for the sake of your own security to publicly disclose the vulnerability, so you should be doing all you possibly can to not have to do that.

  31. Limit responsible disclosure. by ErikTheRed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Simple answer:

    Responsible Disclosure should be limited to vendors that publicly pledge (or, preferably, contractually agree to via their licensing terms) to Responsibly Fix issues that are disclosed to them. If a company doesn't abide by their own Responsibly Fix policy, it should be disclosed so that others realize that it's null and void.

    --

    Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
  32. Missing the point. by dwmw2 · · Score: 1

    I like the analogy with the neighbour's headlights, but it's kind of missing the point. Why do you *care* whether your neighbour leaves his headlights on? By all means be helpful and let him know, but it's no skin off your nose if he's going to be an idiot about it and his car won't start in the morning.

    Which brings us back to the original situation. Why do you care? It's because you have *chosen* to make a mission-critical service depend on a piece of software which you cannot just fix for yourself, so you're beholden to a third party for fixes. A third party who, in your case as in many similar cases, is too incompetent and/or unwilling to help you.

    Getting into that situation in the first place does not strike me as being particularly responsible.

    1. Re:Missing the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Though now, if you mention to your neighbor that their headlights are on they are more likely to snap at you yelling 'THEY GO OFF THEMSELVES, NOW GTFO AND STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT I'M DOING'

    2. Re:Missing the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm glad I don't live in your neighbourhood!

  33. gentlemen by headonfire · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, I think it works like this. If vendors as a group want to encourage more "responsible disclosure", they need to operate in such a way that they take potential vulnerabilities seriously, and I don't just mean in a "we're taking this very seriously" kind of way, but more of a "we have a dedicated, knowledgable staff member/team to look into situations like this" sort of thing. If they decide it's not an issue after all, then any responsibility you have to the vendor is over regarding that issue. If they're not willing to even consider it as an issue after you've made a good faith effort to let them know how much of a problem you think it is, any responsibility you have to the vendor is over regarding that issue.

    In short, a gentleman's agreement only works if both parties are gentlemen.

  34. Getting their attention by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's hard getting the attention of some vendors. I see vulnerabilities in a slightly different context - hacked web sites hosting phishing pages. We distribute a list of major domains being exploited by active phishing scams. This is obtained by processing PhishTank data, and we do this because we want to reduce the collateral damage from a tough blacklist system. At any given time, there are about 30 to 80 domains on the list.

    Some sites get themselves off the list quickly. By now, most of the better free hosting services and short-URL services are automatically checking PhishTank and the APWG blacklist to see when they've been hit. Today, if you run a service where anybody can put up a page that could be used for phishing (i.e. it's not full of your own headers and banners), you need automation to deal with attacks. I've been in contact with the abuse guy at "t35.com", which is a free hosting service. They've recently been hit by a flood of phishing attacks, with several hundred new reports in PhishTank per day. The attacks were coming in faster than the abuse guy could clean them out. They're now gaining on the problem, but haven't squashed it yet. Take-away lesson: automate this.

    The ones near the top of the list have been there for a while. Note the dates, which are the date that the oldest phishing report still online and active appeared in PhishTank. Some just need help. Typically, these are small organizations like churches and nonprofits that have had a break-in and were partially taken over by a phishing site. I send them the Anti-Phishing Working Group's "What To Do if your Site Has Been Hacked". Sometimes I give them a phone call. They deserve sympathy.

    Then there are the hard cases. These are sites with no visible contact address, or a clueless abuse department. At the moment, Google Sites and Google Spreadsheets are being used for phishing. Google is new to the free hosting business, and the phishers have discovered some tricks that Google can't yet handle. While Google puts a "report abuse" link on their site pages, it's possible to set up a file for downloading on Google Sites, and an HTML page can be served that way, without Google's abuse checking. There's also an exploit of Google Spreadsheets. That one is an example of Habbo Hotel phishing. We've reported these to Google several times, but they haven't been fixed yet.

    We've been seeing a new type of attack recently - a phishing operation breaks into a shared hosting server and plants phishing pages on multiple domains on a single server. One of these hit one of the mysterious "*.websitewelcome.com" servers, which has "cloaked domain registration" and no useful default web page. These seem to be associated with "ThePlanet.com", but whether ThePlanet operates them, is providing wholesale hosting, is providing colocation, or is just the upstream connectivity provider is not clear.

    Hiding the contact information of a hosting provider is legally unwise. The hosting provider may lose the "safe harbor" protection of the the DMCA. The "safe harbor" provision for "Information Residing on Systems or Networks At Direction of Users" only applies if "the service provider has designated an agent to receive notifications of claimed infringement... by making available through its service, including on its website in a location accessible to the public, and by providing to the Copyright Office, substantially the following information: the name, address, phone number, and electronic mail address of the agent." So when the RIAA or the MPAA come calling, a likely event for a hosting service, they get

  35. The real painful and inefficient thing? by wampus · · Score: 2, Funny

    That analogy. Stop it.

  36. Re:A misunderstanding of responsible disclosure .. by amorsen · · Score: 1

    The problem is that if you do the responsible thing, the vendor ignores it, and it gets posted to bugtraq, it can be pretty bad for you. Doesn't matter if it was you who posted there or not, or if it was morally right to post it.

    You have to make the choice beforehand: either go via the vendor or go via bugtraq, you can't do one and then switch to the other.

    --
    Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
  37. Inform your corporate attorney of all the facts by pem · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is not a programming problem any more. Much as we all hate lawyers, this is one case where they are useful. VERY useful. You put him on notice, it's not your problem any more. He puts the vendors lawyer on ACTUAL notice (which has a specific legal meaning). He might even need to tell the other lawyer that he's going to have to report this issue in the next required SEC filing. IMO, if you already have the thing deployed, which it seems may be the case from your post, your FIRST stop should have been the attorney.

    1. Re:Inform your corporate attorney of all the facts by Skapare · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If the OP's company is a publicly traded corporation, and if this exploit represents any kind of risk to investors in any form, they are already required to include it in the next filing.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    2. Re:Inform your corporate attorney of all the facts by pem · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Exactly.

      And this is the right way to go about it.

      And the nice thing is that when you report it in the filing, the other company will be shamed because other people will figure out who it is, yet you are not really adding to your own risk, because in the SEC filing you use some words like have been used in this article:

      "We have discovered a security vulnerability in a third party web application platform we use. If this is successfully exploited, (list of bad things that could happen). We have informed the vendor, and they have so far been unresponsive in fixing it. We are working diligently to deploy a firewall in front of the applications, but there is no guarantee that this vulnerability will not be exploited before we have that fully deployed, or the vendor gives us a fix."

      This is exactly the chain of command/control you want to use. You tell your counterparts at the other company that your company's policy requires you to report it to the lawyer, the lawyer tells his counterpart that SEC rules require him to disclose the vulnerability, and then he does it in the next report. End of story.

      Then the ball is in the other company's court to either fix the vulnerability or prove to your satisfaction that it isn't a problem.

  38. Where are your (company's) priorities? by Skapare · · Score: 1

    As long as having a good working relationship with a vendor that you and your company knows is incompetent and unethical is more important than your security and the principle of doing things right, then you get what you deserve.

    You know what the exploit is. But what makes you think you are the only one? What makes you think no unethical hackers know about and won't find out about it for the life of this exploit (which seems from the vendor attitude that it could be very long)?

    You (your company) needs to take steps to protect yourself, now, immediately. Do whatever it takes to make the exploit unusable from within your network and from outside. Send the bill to the vendor ... on your law firm's letterhead. Mention the names of several sleazebag debt collectors for extra points. If you are afraid of ruining your relationship for that, then, again, you deserve what you get.

    I also suggest updating your resume and your LinkedIn profile, and keep an idea on the Indeed listings.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  39. Ejector seat? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    James Bond: Ejector seat? You're joking!
    Q: I never joke about my work, 007.

  40. Wikileaks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can disclose it anonymously through wikileaks.. They could make a category for it. You could try at least.

  41. Toyota: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Allowing you to work car analogies into everything since 2010.

  42. Reality check here folks by cdrguru · · Score: 2, Insightful

    First off, there are very few software packages of any size that are sold with terms and conditions that would allow anyone to sue the vendor for any reason. The only path I could possibly see is an agreement that bugs will be fixed - but this vendor is disclaiming that this is a bug. So even that probably isn't going to get you anywhere. Suing is almost certainly not an option unless you have money to burn.

    There are far too few details in the posting to explain how this software is used and what its function is. It could be something that is on an internal web site and the exposure is from potentially unqualified employees accessing internal information. It could also be a public web site that allows people in Eastern Europe to get enough medical information on celebrities to blackmail them. Who knows?

    If the vendor is saying it isn't a bug it is doubtful many other customers are going to immediately see that it is a problem. They might after a while - again, depending on how this software is used. So going to other custromers isn't likely to be very useful short term.

    Certainly this is a the result of buying packaged software rather than writing everything yourself. You give up a certain amount of control. Open source isn't a solution, because if you aren't familiar with the code it could take a very long time to learn enough about it to do anything like fixing it. I'm sure you could pay a consultant to learn the package and fix it, but then you could also just pay a consultant to write you a system the way you wanted in the first place.

    This is the age of the packaged software solution. It started around 1985 or so and continues to this day. Absolutely, a side effect of this is that you need to be on good working terms with your vendor(s) and your vendor(s) need to be competent. I haven't seen anything that says the vendor is incompetent, just that they disagree about the severity of the problem so far.

    Sure, as a programmer I would like to think that every single company should be employing programmers and custom-writing all their own stuff. Just like 1975. Except that isn't the way things turned out. Too bad, fewer programmers employed. But it is how things work today and nobody is going back.

  43. A bit late by Arker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The sad thing is that by doing the right thing and attempting to report this responsibly, the articles author has now set himself up to be scapegoated. If the exploit is leaked now, whether he does it or not, the vendor will blame him for it and focus as much on destroying his career as on fixing the problem. This is the reason many security professionals decided long ago *not* to report these things "responsibly" but simply to leak them anonymously in every case. Doing this forces the vendor to deal with the vulnerability without making the reporter vulnerable.

    --
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
  44. Make sure you speak to the right people by Volguus+Zildrohar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have no information about this instance, but the public face of the company you are speaking to is not always knowledgeable or intelligent. I work for a software company, and I have seen instances where a customer reports an issue and has it waved away without consultation by the first-contact support employee, usually under hand-waving like "no-one else is seeing this problem", or "I haven't been able to reproduce it". In most of these cases, an experienced person has not been consulted, and there has been no further investigation on our side.

    Yes, the support people are part of the company, which makes the response the company's responsibility, but at the end of the day it comes down to flawed human beings assuming they know more than they do. We try to take steps to prevent it, but it's hard to anticipate and recover from without manually inspecting each support incident after the fact - a step we just don't have the time or money to take.

    --
    When confronted with one problem, some think "I'll use recursion". Now they are confronted with one problem.
  45. company botnets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    the reason companies don't like people disclosing their security holes is not only do they have to release a fix, they also have to slip in a new hole and make sure most of their botnet successfully migrates to it. since there is a gradual uptake of patches and people tend to drag their feet installing a given patch botnet performance can be severely impacted reducing the marketability of it's services.

  46. Zero Day Inititive by martinlp · · Score: 2, Interesting

    why not get these guys to help you. Maybe the vendor will take them seriously.

  47. It would appear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that the vendor is attempting to use their leverage as an important part of your business to your disadvantage; what they have failed to realize, however, is that the existence of this security hole is YOUR leverage. Public disclosure of the exploit and their position as relayed to you would be a PR nightmare. It would destroy many current and potential business relationships. Do not view this as the 'nuclear' option; rather, it is an exercise of your rights as a consumer: namely, to let it be known that they are a bad vendor that is unwilling to fix significant problems with their product. Much in the same way that Toyota is expected to fix their accelerator problem free of charge , you should have the same expectation. A lock company that sells broken locks will go out of business in an awful hurry.

  48. Cultural differences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a good example of how cultural differences would influence the handling of the disclosure:

    Japanese security engineer: Spend a couple of all-nighters until a reliable hack protects his own company's system, then do nothing as the vendor of the buggy app might loose face if confronted

    Italian security engineer: flirt an hour with the receptionist at the vendor, until she gives him the extension number of the programmer responsible for the product. Then curse at the poor sod, who curses back, but then fixes it immediately and sends the patch in an email to a few dozen people he knows at important customers.

    German security engineer: Write a 100 page report on the bug and how to fix it within two days. Then have this report signed off by each of his bosses up to CEO, which takes a couple of months. Once report reaches vendor, Patch is prepared, tested and sent out in a week.

    American security engineer: Short stock of vendor, then call own legal department and tell them to sue the pants off the vendor. Don't fix the hole, but buy insurance coverage in case own customers find out.

  49. One question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I've read through this and have one question that may determine whether there is a concern or not.

    1) Is the software designed to be deployed 'inside' the company firewall?

    If the answer is yes then don't put it in the DMZ and report security concerns.

    Also, if the competition already knows about this, wouldn't they be likely to expose this?

    The only reason I posted this (anonymous, forgot my password) is that I work for a software vendor and for political reasons (not technical ones) certain companies will place software that is designed for internal use on the internet. We highly recommend against this and really there is no purpose of exposing it in such a way.

    I am not suggesting that each company purchase a firewall, but place the software behind the existing firewall.

    Too many things about this discussion make be believe the sw in question was designed for internal use.

  50. Neighbours by lennier · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Have you ever knocked on a neighbor's door to tell them they left their headlights on? Did they then require you to cook them dinner? Exactly..."

    And after dinner, did they then require you to take them to a movie, a concert, some clubs and a night of passionate...

    Excuse me, I'm just going to go check all the car headlights in my street. Be right back.

    --
    You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  51. What is your risk? by bzfreek · · Score: 1

    What your problem is is not Reasonable Disclosure it is more vendor relationships, which will almost always involve playing a bit of political posturing. While there is never a one size fits all solution, I could suggest a few things that might be a good idea. First I would asses the risk that this company in particular poses to your overall operations, this does include things like chance of reprisal for disclosing this. I know this is a daunting task, but you need some kind of metric of how much sticking with them will cost you, both in the short and long term. Once you know your risk you can figure out how to play this game. If there is little risk to your operation, I would suggest a full public disclosure. Yes this might be dangerous but it is a very surefire way of getting resolution, it may not be to your liking but something will get done. There might be only moderate risk, that would probably have anonymous disclosure. If you have given the developers a chance to correct and patch (about a month) this is a perfectly fine course of action. It will help limiting reprisal while still giving you some protection. Finally, there may just be too much risk that disclosure might harm you. My suggestion with no knowledge of particulars would be find alternatives and compare the risk with disclosing vs cost of switching to a new system. The latter will almost always be more expensive in the short term, but over the life cycle of the product it might cheaper to switch sooner then later

  52. f'ing patch it already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you feel like making an exploit public, go right ahead. Just make sure you send your patch along with it.

    What? No patch? It's a java servlet app, not an ELF binary. Unzip the .war, decompile the classes with jad, and fix the damn thing yourself.

    *I've* lost patience with the attention whoring from wannabe security researchers.

    1. Re:f'ing patch it already by Thundersnatch · · Score: 1

      Except the whole decompilation step violates the license agreement, and then the vendor can sue you personally, sue your employer, or just terminate your license for cause. Sure, you might make arguments about interoperability, research, and other fair-uses for the decompilation, but I don't want to be on the wrong end of that legal bill.

      Don't give cause people with more money and lawyers than you unless you're prepared for a long, expensive fight based on your principles. If you can get the EFF or some other angel to agree to back you beforehand, go ahead, but I wouldn't risk losing my job or my home over something like this. There's no moral imperative to be a martyr when dealing with a software company.

  53. Ok, play *actually* _hard_ball... by SCVirus · · Score: 0

    Tell the vendor that if the bug is not fixed within 2 months, you will notify any customers of theirs that you are aware of about the issue (and ask them to forward accordingly) such that they can protect themselves from the coming storm, and shortly after announce the vuln. publicly, with a Proof of Concept exploit. Even if you are unwilling to follow through with your threat (read: a pussy), the threat may well be quite effective.

    1. Re:Ok, play *actually* _hard_ball... by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 1

      Good job,  now there are criminal charges against you along the lines of extortion, blackmail, libel, etc.

      --
      If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
  54. No reason to make it easier by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 3, Insightful
    If they do know how to exploit your system, then it's too late, agreed. If on the other hand they don't (or they hadn't thought of it), the last thing you want to do is post a big message on your front window "The key is under the welcome mat". Some folk who might not have, otherwise, thought to ransack your house might just drop by to 'take a look'.

    As somebody else pointed out ... the least you owe to your employer is to (attempt to) lock down your own system before you tell the world where the hole is.

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  55. Next time.... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1

    If a vendor blows you off with a problem this time, then you know that that's a stupid path to take next time. An anonymous report ((preferrably to other users, rather than to the public at large -- which is more likely to include black-hats)) is a bit less of a political problem if they don't know that you already know about it.

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  56. why is this news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So let me get this straight... some guy at attrition.org has a hard time and posts a rant, and this is news? His anecdote is evidence of a general problem with vulnerability disclosure?

  57. Responsible Disclosure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... is to notify the vendor, and give them X weeks of grace time before you publicize the vulnerability (with or without exploit.)

    It's really that simple. You owe nobody. But to be responsible is not to release 0-day into the wild for installed software, because you're screwing the innocents unnecessarily by giving recipes to script-kiddies before the vendor can react responsibly.

    Come to think of it, this procedure has been hashed out a fucking dozen times on Bugtraq and other security mailing lists before. Why are people even wasting their fucking time arguing about it now? The argument is OVER ALREADY.

  58. Choices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    * Leak it anonymously after 3-6 months. The people at the vendor who ignored it will be fucked. You'll have a great negotiating position if you told the vendor about the exploit, they ignored it, and the exploit is now in the wild, and your systems are vulnerable. You'll need to find a period when you can either take the systems down, or internally secure/protect against the exploit in some way.

    * Hire a security consultant/contractor with the terms that they'll look into it, and that they can expose it after 6 months. Tell the vendor that a consultant/contractor knows about the exploit, and has an NDA that expires in 6 months. The time bomb will make them fix it.

    * Ignore it. You've got hundreds of unknown open exploits in your system anyways.

  59. Their bad software is not your problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Their bad software is not your problem.
    The vendor will have to spend money and PR time trying to implement a fix and will not do so until forced to. That is the bottom line. Yeah I agree you have to be creative to force them to acknowledge the problem but if the issue is real and can be verified by a third party then personally I'd give them an opportunity to fix it and then if they refused I'd make it public somehow in an effort to force a fix. If it is that important....then it is that important right?

  60. ignore it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Honestly why do you care so much? You did your duty by reporting it to the vendor. If they don't want to fix it, that's their problem. Just CYA by emailing whoever in your co is using it that there's a problem and these folks don't want to fix it so that when it all goes to hell, you can say I warned you, don't blame me.

    If you really care that much, write an article and submit it to a publication disclosing your communications, the identity of the vendor, and the product but lacking enough info to exploit the bug

    Also next time disclose it anonymously to the web right away so it actually gets fixed :)

  61. f'ing patch it already by panic!_at_the_ring0 · · Score: 1

    If you feel like making an exploit public, go right ahead. Just make sure you send your patch along with it. What? No patch? It's a java servlet app, not an ELF binary. Unzip the .war, decompile the classes with jad, and fix the damn thing yourself. I've lost patience with the attention whoring from wannabe security researchers.