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BitTorrent CEO On Net Neutrality

angry tapir writes "According to BitTorrent CEO Eric Klinker, the Internet industry has to regulate itself by responding to consumer demands in the wake of the recent US federal court ruling that the Federal Communications Commission didn't have authority to enforce its net neutrality rules."

35 of 223 comments (clear)

  1. BitTorrent CEO? by nacturation · · Score: 3, Funny

    I didn't know a protocol could have a CEO. :)

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  2. I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by Pojut · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...but unless you work for, are paid by, or represent an ISP, how can you support allowing ISPs to give preferential (or detrimental) treatment to different types of Internet traffic?

    1. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by Moryath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No shit.

      The problem right now is PEOPLE HAVE NO CHOICE in their ISP.

      Or rather, the "choice" is between No ISP, Shitty company A, and if you're REALLY lucky, perhaps Shitty Company B.

      My area is an urban area. I'm "lucky" to have cable and DSL competing. Or really not, because it's Comrape and A-Titty-Twister "competing" with each other, which is to say, not competing at all.

      We can complain all day long, but we as consumers are fucked, because 90% or better of Americans live in an area where the only ISP has a monopoly, and the other 10% have a duopoly at best if they are lucky. And apparently, nothing short of an act of Congress (and I shudder since Obama and the rest of the Senators/"Representatives" are pretty much bought-off scumbags who don't represent us at all) will fix it.

    2. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by Pojut · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unfortunately, we are stuck with the exact same situation you describe...we just moved into a new apartment building, and everything is almost perfect...except Internet. We have a choice between Comcast Cable, or the local DSL provider. Since my fiancee is a 3rd grade teacher and does a TON of work from home, and I do a lot of online gaming, a DSL line just wouldn't cut it...so, we're stuck with Comcast.

      Which blows. Really bad.

    3. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by GigsVT · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If Internet service were properly metered like electricity is, then people who use a lot would simply pay more.

      Right now it's as if factories and houses were paying the same $300/month for electrical service, and the people in the houses were subsidizing the factories.

      On the Internet though, your neighbor can easily run a "factory" by simply seeding a bunch of torrents like an asshole, using all the bandwidth.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    4. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by 1s44c · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Obama and the rest of the Senators/"Representatives" are pretty much bought-off scumbags who don't represent us at all

      All politicals are 'bought-off scumbags' who don't represent anything more than their own self interest. Anyone who really cared would be terrified to have so much responsibility.

    5. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by Pojut · · Score: 5, Insightful

      On the Internet though, your neighbor can easily run a "factory" by simply seeding a bunch of torrents like an asshole, using all the bandwidth.

      Or by watching cats all day on Youtube...or by watching TV episodes on Hulu all day, or streaming movies through Netflix all day, or any other number of bandwith-intensive activities.

      Torrent users are being targeted because they are the easiest ones to go after...what about the stay at home mom who streams Netflix and Hulu 8 hours a day, or the patent examiner who works from home and is constantly streaming c-span reruns to help with their research?

      There are a lot of high bandwith uses for the Internet that don't involve piracy or torrents...so why is it only torrents are being targeted?

    6. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by Moryath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Anyone remotely honest doesn't have the kind of money needed to run these days, either.

    7. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by spottedkangaroo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agreed.

      ... personally, I would love to move to a purely metered service, perhaps with some monthly minimum. I like my downloads to go really fast, but I rarely download things. My thinking is that the ISPs would very much overcharge for the transfers (at first), but overall this would be a much better model.

      The reality is that an ISP cannot make money reselling bandwidth at 10th the cost of the actual bandwidth if people are actually going to expect to be able to use it 24x7. That just doesn't make any kind of sense. So unless you're in the mood to backhaul your own T1 to your house (1.5megs sure sounds slow doesn't it ... $300/m not counting termination fees); how can you realistically expect the ISP to do this for you for $30/m? They can't. They depend on you not using it all the time or they can't make any money.

      So they're either going to fuck with our connections *or* we can pay for what we use. Something is going to give and I'd rather they treat all my traffic the same, so I'd rather pay for a metered service like I do with electricity.

      --
      Imagine if you weren't allowed to use roads because a bus company complained about your driving 3 times. --skunkpussy
    8. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by GigsVT · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Netflix streaming is surprisingly efficient.

      Yes, it's possible to run up a large amount in ways other than file sharing, but the passive, 24 hour, unattended nature of file sharing makes it far easier to run up a huge amount on.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    9. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We can complain all day long, but we as consumers are fucked

      We're fucked as long as most consumers are so hypnotized by marketing and ubiquitous advertising that they are no longer able to make informed decisions based on their own best interests.

      They're glad to whip out the plastic and raise their credit limits no matter how much shit they have to eat, as long as it's...shiny.

      Until consumers understand that no corporation is their friend, and even the best of them will act badly, we're only going slide further into mercantile serfdom, where we exist to feed the corporations. Either that or we have to elect officials who will enact real consumer protections, with teeth. Since most politicians work for the corporations, that is unlikely.

      I'm afraid we're going to have to fight this war ourselves, or accept that things will get worse.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    10. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by hitmark · · Score: 3, Insightful

      i suspect its because its not about bandwidth, but the number of connections.

      it could very well be that the ISPs have calculated maybe 1-3 connections pr account (a web connection is only active while a page is downloading, same with mail and such), and so have grabbed cheap gear that can handle only that many connections at a time. But with torrents the count can hit 100+ fairly quickly, and multiply that by the number of accounts attached to a box and things hit industrial quite fast. And these connections are active 24/7, or at least as long as the computer is online.

      so the traffic have gone from 1-3 transient connections a minute, to 100+ a second.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    11. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by sckeener · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Anyone remotely honest doesn't have the kind of money needed to run these days, either.

      "The secret of a great success for which you are at a loss to account is a crime that has never been found out, because it was properly executed." by -Honore de Balzac

      which is normally paraphrased as 'Behind every great fortune there is a crime'.

      Thus the only way an honest man can get into congress is if a corrupt man helps him get there.

      Which leads into this quote "Now and then an innocent man is sent to the legislature." by Kin Hubbard (1868-1930)

      --
      "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
    12. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by hitmark · · Score: 2, Informative

      T1 comes with a bit more then just bandwidth. Its industrial grade connection, so the supplier basically guarantees that the connection will maintain T1 come hell or high water. Also, its symmetrical.

      cable and dsl do not come with such guarantees. They only claim that they can deliver up to some max speed. Best effort i think the terminology is.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    13. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, it turns out that the image of people spending oodles on worthless crap is not an entirely accurate picture. Watch and learn from Elizabeth Warren. Are there outliers? Sure, but the statistical trends she describes are very very clear.

      If you don't have time for the whole thing, one of her basic points is that middle class folks are not in fact buying lots of clothing or appliances or other shiny toys, but are spending far more on housing than they used to (for a house which is not much larger and probably older than what their parents would have bought in the 70's), and because of the higher fixed expenses have significantly less discretionary funds to spend and save. So on average an American middle class family is doing everything they can to reduce spending and still not making ends meet, much less have any savings available.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    14. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by Voyager529 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, they're experiments, but the GP is still somewhat accurate. Yes, electricity isn't "stored" by electric companies, but they can reduce how much is generated. Lots of highly paid engineers earn their living designing highly complicated systems to determine where to strike that balance. The municipal power company where I live is an old-school oil burning plant. No, they don't store up electricity once it's been generated, but they can do things like burning less oil during periods of lower consumption while increasing oil burning to meet up with demand. This principle admittedly doesn't hold up with things like wind, solar, or nuclear power, but it does here for the intent of my point.

      There's no "conserving" bandwidth by leaving it in some sort of unprocessed form. Either bits are going over a wire, or they aren't. To my admittedly limited knowledge, there's no analogous means of "leaving bandwidth in oil form until it's needed", and I think THAT's more what the GP was getting at.

    15. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by tlhIngan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      On the Internet though, your neighbor can easily run a "factory" by simply seeding a bunch of torrents like an asshole, using all the bandwidth.

      Or by watching cats all day on Youtube...or by watching TV episodes on Hulu all day, or streaming movies through Netflix all day, or any other number of bandwith-intensive activities.

      Torrent users are being targeted because they are the easiest ones to go after...what about the stay at home mom who streams Netflix and Hulu 8 hours a day, or the patent examiner who works from home and is constantly streaming c-span reruns to help with their research?

      There are a lot of high bandwith uses for the Internet that don't involve piracy or torrents...so why is it only torrents are being targeted?

      Because Bittorrent users upload. Cut the upload and they won't be targeted. Of course, that kinda negates the point of Bittorrent, but oh well.

      YouTube's a download activity. Ditto Hulu.

      You see, residential connections are horribly one-sided, optimized for downloads moreso than uploads (especially cable - any wonder why the biggest blockers are cable companies? Comcast, Time-Warner...). In fact on cable, it's so bad that a few users on the top tier high-speed plan can easily take down an entire node just by uploading at full speed, because no one else can fit their upload packets into the stream. And anyone who's played with a packet shaper knows what happens when you don't prioritize VoIP and online gaming. When the upstream is saturated, the internet is slow for everyone and latencies go through the roof.

      But downloading huge streams is easy for cable because the upstream requirement is very low while you're grabbing MTU-sized packets on the downstream (a tiny 64-byte TCP ACK packet for a 1460 user bytes), especially since the download bandwidth is effectively unlimited - there's just that much of it around.

      They're happy that people are using Hulu and Netflix and other stuff - download is effectively free, and there's actually enough of it to go around for everyone to stream all day. But uploads - well a few video chats and VoIP calls aren't doing too much (barely 100 kilobits in most cases) compared to the megabits that a few torrent users easily consume.

      Perhaps the only comparable activity to Bittorrent uploading 24/7 would be a VPN, but even VPNs tend to be at best very bursty and not continuous.

    16. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by Omestes · · Score: 3, Informative

      yes because everyone on slashdot never broke the law ONCE. We are all corrupt. Just at different levels of the scale.

      Breaking the law != corrupt.

      Corrupt is working against the people's best interests for some benefit of some 3rd party who is your benefactor. On that level I can safely state that most of Slashdot is not corrupt, because most of us are poor, unwashed, plebes whose only true power is choosing between Coke and Pepsi.

      Most of /. might possibly be corrupt if somehow power fell into our laps, but lacking power there is no real opportunity to be corrupt.

      Also, breaking the law doesn't always imply a bad thing, since legality doesn't imply morality.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    17. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by Pojut · · Score: 4, Funny

      haha, you fucking dork. what level is your wizard up to?!? bahahaha

      None...he died...thanks for bringing it up, you insensitive clod!

    18. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by dpilot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As I read this thread, it strikes me that there might be something worse than corrupt.

      A corrupt politician might accept campaign contributions from big business, know that he's not really right, and do the minimum necessary to fulfill his quid-pro-quo without buying into it.

      On the other hand, there are also politicians who believe in the big business cause, accept campaign contributions because they feel that those businesses are important constituents, and pursue those goals with personal will, desire, and thoroughness.

      The former is dishonest, yes - but he's doing less harm to me than the latter. As voters we're generally educated to know the difference. (I'd like to think.)

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    19. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by Imrik · · Score: 3, Informative

      I hear people always talking smack about how you can just change ISPs if you don't like something, but where exactly is this really a viable option?

      Everywhere but the US.

    20. Re:I know everyone is against the FCC and all... by Voyager529 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not entirely, but the costs can be managed slightly more for power generation than for bandwidth. No, you can't just shut down an entire coal plant, but you can burn less coal at night than you would during the day. A cooler summer leads to less air conditioner use, thereby reducing power consumption. Yes, these are very broad terms and I realize that there is a floor to how much power can be 'not generated', but there certainly must be some wiggle room. A few years ago there was a HUGE push to get everyone near me to switch to those fluorescent socket bulbs. That has stopped recently because it was apparent that those bulbs still ran pretty warm, gave off terrible light, didn't last nearly as long as regular incandescent bulbs, but still cost ten times the price. Nonetheless, the local power company was giving subsidies to people who bought them. The only logical conclusion for the power company giving money back is that they were able to save money in power generation over the long term.

      This is radically different than bandwidth in that ISP's can't shut off half their routers during off-peak hours. They can't save any money or resources by notching their backbone routers down to 100MBit instead of Gig-E or 10Gig-E when demand is low. Seeding a dozen torrents doesn't burn more coal than playing Farmville; the only resource being consumed more heavily is the amount of bandwidth unavailable to lesser users.

      I don't entirely fault Comcast for throttling torrents during peak usage. A T1 or T3 line is sold with the understanding that you'll get near-perfect uptime and be able to fully saturate your bandwidth without a problem, because you're paying $$$$$$$ to be able to do that. Cable and DSL lines are much cheaper because you don't get any kind of uptime or throughput guarantee. If Comcast (And the rest of the ISPs running around) oversubscribes a bit, that's understandable too - the nature of their business makes that nearly essential to a reasonable degree. The problem is when they grossly oversubscribe and agressively traffic shape during off-peak hours.

  3. I REMAIN SKEPTICAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Everyone fears decentralized networks and lack of central control. It is easier to ban than to utilize what you're not creative enough to adapt to.

  4. Self Regulate? by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Doesn't "self regulation" usually result in services and pricing that always benefit the industry at the expense of the consumer?

    1. Re:Self Regulate? by AnonymousClown · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Doesn't "self regulation" usually result in services and pricing that always benefit the industry at the expense of the consumer?

      No, no, no. Here are some examples where it has worked:

      1. there's the ummmm
      2. and the ummmm
      3. and ....

      Never mind.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:Self Regulate? by jonaskoelker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Doesn't "self regulation" usually result in services and pricing that always benefit the industry at the expense of the consumer?

      Only if free markets don't work. I think if you're a libertarian or a liberal* economist, you believe that free markets work by assumption rather than because of the evidence (maybe even in spite of the evidence).

      (* liberal as in freedom, not left**-wing)
      (** by US standards)

    3. Re:Self Regulate? by Pojut · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unfortunately, the very thing that free markets require to function properly (greed) is also the very thing that causes them to fail -_-;;;

    4. Re:Self Regulate? by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Only if free markets don't work

      Free markets would work, but unfortunately they don't exist, at least not for long. The inevitable state for a mature market is monopoly or cartel, and the price of freedom is eternal regulation.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    5. Re:Self Regulate? by MobyDisk · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hang Gliding.

      The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association is the self-regulating body for non-powered human flight AKA ultralights. FAA regulations part 103 basically says "Do whatever the heck you want, between dawn and dusk, just stay the heck out of the way of regular air traffic." No inspections, no required certifications, no reporting requirements, no helmet requirements, etc.

      Self-regulation works in this case because because pilots want to keep the government out of their way, so they voluntarily make-up sensible rules and comply with them. Technically, you don't HAVE to join the USPHA to fly a hang glider, and you don't HAVE to follow their rules. But pilots voluntarily get the certifications, voluntarily wear helmets, voluntarily report accidents, etc. We would rather make our own rules and follow them than have the government do it.

      Unfortunately, this model doesn't work for most anything else. Rarely is a for-profit company motivated by a need to do things right.

  5. How about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We just GIVE the FCC the power to regulate (bitchslap) troublemaker isps like comcast.

    The free market wont fix it. Nobody else will fix it. So make the FCC do something useful for a change.

    Altho i'm not sure why we allowed internet provider greed to ever bring up net neutrality at all. Neutrality should just be the way things are by default.

    We're just not a very bright species i guess. Or too many of us are getting paid one way or another to be tools for the isps. Sell everyone out for a buck.

  6. Bittorrent != Piracy by Kirin+Fenrir · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Slight (mostly relevant) rant:

    I'm a little tired of hearing "bittorrent" used as a synonym for "piracy". Do lawmakers, ISPs, and IP holders not realize that bittorrent has plenty of legitimate uses as a distributed filesharing platform? And I'm not just talking about Linux ISOs: One example is World of Warcraft, which has integrated bittorrent technology into it's patcher. For a piece of software that popular, not using bittorrent or something similar would probably bring down the patch server constantly.

    Bittorrent != piracy (or copyright infringement). Stop using them in the same breath.

    --
    Caffeine is my anti-drug!

    Duranin - A NWN2 Roleplaying Persistent World
    1. Re:Bittorrent != Piracy by Bugamn · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't know how many people download pirate programs or pr0n, but I think it's more than 11.5M and they download a lot more than 474M each.

  7. industries don't regulate themselves by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    they become monopolies or oligopolies, and warp the marketplace so only they benefit

    the greatest enemy of the free marketplace, true capitalism, is not socialism or communism, but monopolies and oligopolies. people need to understand the difference between capitalism and corporatism

    capitalism is the engine of growth of any economy, and the country that is able to keep the marketplaces as close to free as possible is the country that prospers. corporatism meanwhile is all about the larger players in the marketplace paying off the government, abusing natural defects in the marketplace, and otherwise ossifying and abusing their size to squash innovation and consumers to maximize profit. what's most important is to realize that the only tool you have against capitalism devolving into corporatism is a government with strong regulatory powers. the players in the mark place won't self-regulate, ever... well, they WILL self-regulate, if by that you mean the degenrate meaning of merely consolidating their power at the expense of the free market

    the "shocking" realization for the libertarian free market fundamentalist is that the friend of the true capitalist is a strong central government with lots of regulations. it seems contradictory to the common rhetoric, but its absolutely true. perhaps the common rhetoric has been bought and paid for by corporatists. perhaps those who fight government, whether out of being propagandized or being naive, are actually working for the oligopolies whose true desire is to crush the individual and the marketplace (for then they profit more)

    if you are a true libertarian, your greatest enemy are oligopolies, not communists

    we need a sea change on the right in terms of seeing that large corporations are not their friends, and represent a greater threat to their beliefs and their country than any bleeding heart liberal could ever be

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  8. Whoever creates the monopoly, should regulate it by Sloppy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm actually kind of glad it hasn't fallen under the FCC, because it just wouldn't make any sense. Whatever level of government is creating the monopolies, is who should be regulating. Cable Company has a franchise with your city? Then the city is the one who should demand neutrality (and any other necessary pros for the quids). And in the rare situations where an ISP doesn't have any monopoly force, there's no need to regulate them, because their customers and competitors can handle the job.

    I know people generally hate this idea, because they don't want to get involved with local politics and only show up for general elections so they can vote party tickets, but tying the special favors directly to the restrictions is the right thing to do. If you don't like local politics, the problem is with you, not the fact that you have a local government. Get over it, face up to your responsibility, and demand some conditions the next time you use government to transfer your power to other private entities.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  9. CHOICE IS IRRELEVANT HERE ! by unity100 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    some of you think that if there was choice, you could just choose the isp which respected net neutrality and problem would be solved.

    it is anything but this. just check any sector in regard to products and services :

    some corporations start some practice in their product/service. if they can get away, others start to imitate it. when the number of companies practicing it hits a noticeable level (and corresponding market share), the practice becomes de facto standard of the sector. in almost every field this is like that.

    so, even if you had competition, 2-3 major isps (at&t filth etc) would start filtering their traffic, and after a while try to push it as de facto, logical nature of the industry. they can take huge losses, they have staying power, they can wait. you couldnt expect smaller isps to resist for long.

    this is something like your free speech rights - you cant just skip enforcing them, and then just expect everythign to 'work out fine' by itself. some things need enforcement.