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Bridging the Digital Divide In Uganda, By Freight

jtrust27 writes "Slow or non-existent Internet connections have meant that the people of Uganda have not been able to harness the many advantages of the online economy. This social and economic exclusion of the poorest of the poor was further accentuated by the impossibility for a Ugandan to obtain a credit card or make PayPal payments — a simple requirement to be able to pay for goods and services online. Most merchants and payment gateway providers automatically block all credit cards from Africa, and it is not possible to get a verified PayPal account in many African nations." Now, a Ugandan company called EasyPayUganda is helping people sidestep these restrictions, by allowing customers to make online payments by proxy in order to pay for services and goods. EasyPayUganda is also providing a logistics solution, forwarding customers' shipments to Uganda, as most online merchants will not ship to Africa.

146 comments

  1. Africa by sopssa · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's interesting that people complain how Africa is a third world country and how we should help them, but interestingly everyone sets artificial restrictions on them and restricts them from the other world. Many countries in the world ship food help and money there but if African countries are banned from using the services the rest of the world uses their region will never develop to the same level.

    Instead of spending billions dollars to help Africa every year, what about if we open the services and let African countries develop normally like rest of the world?

    Obviously theres the danger of fraud single they're still developing countries, but it's better to think long term. We can use the aid to cover the cost from frauds, and maybe in a few years we can stop spending so much money to help them. It will save us a lot more, especially in the long run.

    I'm glad theres those single individuals who fight for it and try to make the world a better place.

    1. Re:Africa by dlochinski · · Score: 1

      I agree, we are not helping by holding restrictions, but we definitely don't want to let them loose. I also can't help but think that if Africa was improved, if some other continent or region will take their place, kind of like equilibrium.

    2. Re:Africa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Erectus walks amongst us, my friend. Perhaps the largest indicator of the American conservatives' folly is denying Africa birth control. Try teaching your un-neutered dog about "abistinence" when bitches in heat roam the streets and you have no leash.

      America is the new Africa. Why go through the trouble to gather a slave from Africa while America's citizens will buy anything while being too fat, docile, and content to rise against their corporate overlords?

      "Laugh and grow fat" -- Fatman, from Metal Gear Solid 2...the best game ever made aside of Metal Gear Solid 4

    3. Re:Africa by timmarhy · · Score: 1
      the problem is the aid doesn't come close to covering the fraud that would happen if you just opened the doors.

      it's chicken and egg, we can't trust transactions from africa, but they can't rise above the need to steal to survive because we can't trust them. unfortunately for the people in africa it's not going to be the credit companies and merchants that give in first.

      credit and merchant issues aren't their biggest problems though, it's the lack of stable government. some area's in africa are pure machette country, meaning you'll be hacked to death for a 350ml bottle of water. no business can safely operate there, so the people don't get to benefit from trade dooming them to at best a poor farming lifestyle.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    4. Re:Africa by dangitman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's interesting that people complain how Africa is a third world country and how we should help them, but interestingly everyone sets artificial restrictions on them and restricts them from the other world.

      It's not that interesting, because you are talking about two different sets of people. The people upset about poverty in Africa are not the same people who run financial institutions that block Africa from global participation.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    5. Re:Africa by WheelDweller · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Yeah, I'm with you: if there's any place that needs help, it's Africa.

      But there are barriers to the help.

      Remember Idi Amin? When THAT asshole left, the country was in ruin. THEN they got a new, bigger, meaner asshole to make lives miserable. Not opinion: he set up parties to attack towns, binding women's hands behind their back, instructing the parties to rape them, and throw them from the bell towers of churches. I guess it was some sign of brutality; as if they were any unaware.

      One family escaped a group like this, trying to get home, when 'mom' fell and was beaten with shock absorbers (of all things). The rest of the family made it, but the 'dad' still has to walk past her body every day to go to town/work because the raiding party took 'mom's' head. And the local custom/religion says she can't be buried until she's complete.

      These kinds of problems make sharing and cooperation difficult to say the least.

      Outside forces have other devious plans. Take the mosquito-net thing. France is the world's largest (if not only) mosquito net maker. So they fear-monger the continent into believing that America's DDT is death incarnate. Somehow they are to believe that DDT has made zombies of the largest superpower.

      So instead of using DDT and getting past the 300,000 deaths each year, they buy French mosquito nets, and wonder how the US survives. DDT stopped being deadly about 50 years ago. The deaths were minimal. But these days almost no one has malaria in America.

      So here it is: how do you do business with neighbors that use brutality as their government and healthcare system? How do you bring in power lines when neighboring rebels will just cut them down? How can *ANYONE* theorize about the coolness of an iPod when the family is dying of diseases?

      It's not about money or food; it's about FREEDOM.

      Those starving people you see on TV don't have the freedom, or in many cases the knowledge that selling a good or service could make their lives better. TONS of food are brought in weekly to be wasted on warlords. They lack the freedom to find a better life.

      If there ever was a place on Earth of which mankind should be ashamed, it's Africa. I wish them well; it's all I can do.

      --
      --- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
    6. Re:Africa by feuerfalke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How in the world would another nation or continent regress simply because conditions in Africa improve? I guess you could make an argument that there are limited resources in the world - but I seriously doubt that another developing or developed nation would suddenly plummet into the stone age simply because Africa is catching up with the rest of the world. Whether or not the rest of the developed world wants to share any of its resources with Africa is another story, however... how many Americans would give up their oversized homes and cars and reduce their ridiculous consumption of meat, water, and so on just so that some far-off distant nation can fare a little better?

      --
      A programmer is a machine for turning pizza into code.
    7. Re:Africa by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      I searched for Uganda news. The message as I see it is that we need engineer boots on the ground to build infrastructure. Just sending money will not be enough there and it would not be enough here. Send auditors too.

      http://allafrica.com/stories/201004050070.html

    8. Re:Africa by DrXym · · Score: 1
      Obviously theres the danger of fraud single they're still developing countries, but it's better to think long term. We can use the aid to cover the cost from frauds, and maybe in a few years we can stop spending so much money to help them. It will save us a lot more, especially in the long run.

      Well there's the rub. Credit card companies are not charities. If a large enough % of purchases originating from poor countries are fraudulent, they're going to implement measures to prevent such purchases happening in the first place. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of overseas purchases by $ value originating from Uganda and similar countries were fraudulent

    9. Re:Africa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Slow or non-existent internet connections have meant that the people of Uganda for the last three decades have not been able to harness the many advantages of the online economy. This social and economic exclusion of the poorest of the poor"

      Bullshit. There is no "economic exclusion" of Ugandans, they are simply too STUPID to make their own bloody country work, and everybody knows it.

      But don't tell me, it's all white people's fault. Isn't it always?
      Let them run their own lives, and they will all be living in mud huts and starving to death. Not OUR fault. THEIR fault.

      And if you love living around blacks so much, YOU move to Africa and live with them, stop FORCING them on US.

    10. Re:Africa by Runaway1956 · · Score: 0

      "how many Americans would give up their"

      I wouldn't be willing to give up very much of anything for Africans, Asians, Europeans, or even for Martians if we found that Martians are starving. The fact is, Africa has enough resources to provide for their own people. The real problems in Africa center on two core issues: warfare, and education. So long as millions of people remain uneducated, and rely on ages old superstitions born of ignorance (having sex with a virgin will cure AIDS, for instance) there isn't a whole lot that can be done about Africa's poverty. Worse, young men are going off to join one army or another, to kill their neighbor's young men. What can you expect of war ravaged nations?

      The governments need to mandate that the kids are given decent educations, and they need to stop the warring factions. That done, the world couldn't do much to hold them back.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    11. Re:Africa by CondeZer0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What blocks Africa from global participation are the tariffs, subsidies and other trade barriers in the 'developed' world; specially theinsane farm subsidies in Europe and the US.

      Financial institutions on the other hand have little if any incentive to block Africa from global participation as Africa does not represent a threat to their business and actually represents an opportunity to expand.

      --
      "When in doubt, use brute force." Ken Thompson
    12. Re:Africa by hitmark · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the basic problem seems to be that we have a habit of talking about africa as a single place, rather then multiple nations.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    13. Re:Africa by maxume · · Score: 1
      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    14. Re:Africa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Europe was in much the same condition for thousands of years until we collectively decided that the idea of constant warfare was stupid and bad for business. The notion that anyone needs our help to get out of their bad situation is ridiculous.

    15. Re:Africa by wealthychef · · Score: 1

      The real problems in Africa center on two core issues: warfare, and education....The governments need to mandate that the kids are given decent educations, and they need to stop the warring factions.

      Absolutely agreed. It would really help if the U.S. were as concerned about that as it is about the Taliban. If we would put real pressure on those governments through trade, diplomacy, etc., to show a sincere urgency that they stop murdering and oppressing their citizens, I think it would help. But there is no real effort in that direction, compared to say, mining their diamonds.

      --
      Currently hooked on AMP
    16. Re:Africa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't get the reasoning. If financial institutions have no incentive to block Africa, why are they doing it? For fun? I think the logic is that the fraud is too high, and that leads to loss, and that is a financial disincentive. But then again, I didn't rtfa.

    17. Re:Africa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alternatively, you talk of Africa as if it consisted of groups that exist in a cohesive manner and behave in a coordinated fashion.

      Really, Africa consists of arbitrarily designated territories that cover hundreds of disparate groups, each consisting of people who only have in common ancestry and hatred of nearby groups, but otherwise act mainly as individuals and thus little concerted action to improve their situation can be performed.

      Until we can truly form nations of constant purpose dedicated to the betterment of our people, nothing anyone else can do will help.

    18. Re:Africa by Technician · · Score: 1

      Due to the amount of fraud and corruption in the country, shipping anything to Africa is an expensive proposition. The country is pretty much shut out of online shopping because a very high percentage of purchase attempts are fraudulent in nature. I have an older laptop I was going to give someone in Africa. Shipping on a 10 lb box is in excess of $300 US. I was unwilling to pay that much to give away an old working laptop. Most major carriers such as USPS, UPS, etc will not ship freight collect. DHL is the only major carrier that will ship freight collect, but they will only do so prepaid in cash. They will not take a check or credit card. They are all too often stolen, forged, or fake.

      Until the corruption is fixed so it is not a large percentage of all freight going to Africa, this problem will continue. Ebay and Craigslist fraud are a good portion of the stuff that does get shipped to Africa. If you contact the fraud department of UPS or DHL, they admit to the large numbers of complaints on shipments to Africa. The worst area is Western Africa state.

      The attempts to acquire goods and money by fraud is so prevelant that answering the fraud offers to ebay scams and such is a sport. Search and read scam warning sites such as scamwarners, 419eater, and others. There is a large range of common well known scams including Advance Fee (419 scam), Music Lessons (piano, guitar, trumpet etc lessons for an unacompanied minor), Property rental (they don't own the property being rented) apartment or vacation rental (they rent your property with fake check or money order then have to cancel) you take the cancellation fee from the fake check and wire them the rest. Guess who gets stung when the check bounces. Learn the scams. One youtube video shows the huge number of fake checks one guy collected in responding to these fake offers.

      On one of the scambait sites a couple of the users decided to have a friendly competition to see who could get a scammer to send them the largest fake check. They made a video.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zEU74LFMk&feature=related

      Here is a collection of fake checks sent to just one scambaiter who was wasting the time of fraudsters.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEsC4cD9FEU&NR=1

      Warning, if you visit the site linked in the video, many of the photos are NSFW.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    19. Re:Africa by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      The Taliban consists of people who harbor people that want to blow us up. Africa, not generally as much. The other problem is that a lot of Africa is not really under the control of a government - any government. People were so hot and bothered about getting the Europeans out of Africa that they never bothered to think about teaching the locals how to replace them. In India, this set the stage for decades of near-Communism and a Byzantine government bureaucracy - and that was in a country that was relatively modern. In Africa, well, they never stood a chance.

    20. Re:Africa by Jyms · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's interesting that people complain how Africa is a third world country and how we should help them, but interestingly everyone sets artificial restrictions on them and restricts them from the other world.

      Another thing that hurts Africa is that even an intelligent audience like Slashdot thinks of Africa as a third world COUNTRY, when in fact it is a continent with a billion people spread over 61 territories (53 countries), covering about one fifth of the world's landmass.

    21. Re:Africa by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Well, it reminds me of Stargate (the movie). Keep people on a low tech level, so they can’t defend themselves against being exploited.
      Ask the Yes Men about how the WTO deliberately does this, backed by the will of the western population for cheap crap.

      Or when was the last time you did fair business with an African?

      The wonderful thing about the Internet is, that you can (theoretically) even do business when you live in a tent in the desert. (Not judging the lifestyle here.) So it’s perfect for areas poor of resources.
      In my opinion, if you simply gave poor African regions a Internet connection, own laptops, a freed them from the “I don’t know how to do that.” social conditioning, then it wouldn’t take long until they would come up with lots of great services that we happily would pay for. Because the knowledge is all on the net. (Of course learning foreign languages would be the recommended first step, and should be pre-installed on the system. :)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    22. Re:Africa by nroets · · Score: 1

      It's interesting that people complain how Africa is a third world country and how we should help them, but interestingly everyone sets artificial restrictions on them and restricts them from the other world.

      The restrictions of Paypal and other payment networks on African citizens are not artificial. They are market forces reacting to the failure of African governments to prosecute fraud cases properly.

      It is not difficult to understand why African governments are soft on crime. For example, the much stricter US criminal justice system is now incarcerating 10% of African American males, drastically increasing the number of single African American mothers. The Economist has a detail explanation of the phenomenon.

      Helping Africa has proven extremely difficult: Aid in the form of infrastructure projects have often resulted in making governments lazy. More recently, some economists have speculated that increased trade leads to higher HIV rates and subsequent decline.

      It is however not all doom and gloom: Celphones have had a enormous impact, arguably more than all other inventions combined. Renewed interest in it's resource wealth, esp. from China.

      And I think the process can be accelerated: Aid money going towards education and investment flows to countries with reasonably good economic policies.

    23. Re:Africa by Weedhopper · · Score: 1

      I searched for Uganda news. The message as I see it is that we need engineer boots on the ground to build infrastructure. Just sending money will not be enough there and it would not be enough here. Send auditors too.

      http://allafrica.com/stories/201004050070.html

      Read between the lines of the story you linked. This is a problem that's typical of Uganda and it's not matter of "needing more engineer boots on the ground to build infrastructure." The problem is corruption at all levels.

      Huawei and the Chinese are bending the Ugandans over on this one, which is normal because in Uganda, everyone gets screwed at some point.

    24. Re:Africa by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

      It's interesting that people complain how Africa is a third world country and how we should help them, but interestingly everyone sets artificial restrictions on them and restricts them from the other world.

      It is indeed interesting how many people feel compelled to give advise to Africans (advice being the worst vice of them all), w/o realizing that Africa ain't no country, but that is is the 2nd largest CONTINENT on planet earth.
      And about as diverse as piece of real estate as it gets in our solar system.

      --
      Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
    25. Re:Africa by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      My point was that corruption can run rampant, or it can run with restraints. If one simply sends money, then it will be understood as business as usual and dealt with as usual. On the other hand, one can fight the problem. To fight the problem, one needs personnel there. The attitude is that one is willing to lose every fight except the last.

      Simply sending money to the government is like standing in a classroom telling the students that they are as smart as you are and expecting to tell them anything else afterward.

    26. Re:Africa by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      It's interesting that people complain how Africa is a third world country and how we should help them

      Usually, I tune out any argument that starts out with a claim about what kind of country Africa is (third world or not), since any claim of that form is a pretty good indicator that the argument is coming from someone who doesn't have the first clue what they are talking about.

    27. Re:Africa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mod parent up

  2. Let's just hope... by ls671 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Let's just hope those people are reliable ;-))

    --
    Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    1. Re:Let's just hope... by Bugamn · · Score: 5, Funny

      Dear Mr./Mrs.,

      First, we must solicit your strict confidence in this transaction. This is by virtue of its nature as being utterly confidential.

      We represent the poor people of Uganda and we need your help with some online transactions. We have created this site to allow the poor people of Uganda to take part on the online economy, but worldwide distrust won't allow us to continue.

      We have got the ammount of two Million Dollars, but we need the help of an american citizen to receive the money. After careful research we have chosen you to help us.

      As part of this business you will be allowed to keep one quarter of the total money, while using the rest to buy the goods for our clients. We only need 2 thousand dollars for legal fees to transfer the money, which will given back at the end of business.

      Yours Faythfully,

      Dr Clement Okon

    2. Re:Let's just hope... by ls671 · · Score: 1

      > We have got the ammount of two Million Dollars, but we need the help...

      I call fake on this post, a real one would state:

      We have got the amount of two Million US Dollars (2,000,000.00 US$), but we need the help...

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
  3. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why don't they just get the friendly African prince to buy their goods online. He is always willing to send me money.

  4. can't honestly discuss the place by r00t · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People in the USA have the weird experience of public schools going on about Africa having wonderful culture and natural resources, then as adults slowly realizing that the place is totally fucked up.

    1. Re:can't honestly discuss the place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my experience people in the USA are a weird experience in their own right.

    2. Re:can't honestly discuss the place by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Based on my experience, human nature is pretty universal and similar in every part of the world although it might sometimes look like it is expressed differently at first glance ;-)

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    3. Re:can't honestly discuss the place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Funny, what you describe sounds exactly like the United States. Projection much?

      Africa is not a place, you know. It's an entire continent.

    4. Re:can't honestly discuss the place by timmarhy · · Score: 1
      if you think the USA compares in anyway to the violence in africa, I question your life experience in a big way.

      south africa has the 2nd highest rate of murder in the world, most of the other african countries would be right up there with it if they had accurate records. the USA is ranked 24th, and has 10x less murders then south africa. and remember south africa is probably the most developed country out of all of them. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    5. Re:can't honestly discuss the place by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      The media don't really help either. As someone lamented (might have been Dambisa Moyo): when the media show someone in Africa, it'll either be a fly ridden hunger victim... or Nelson Mandela. But there's a great deal in between.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
  5. Last 3 decades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The online _economy_ really only came to prominence the last decade and a half or so in North America. How have the Ugandans been missing out for 3 decades?

    1. Re:Last 3 decades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the 1990's, 2000's, now we're in the 2010's... 3 decades. :)

    2. Re:Last 3 decades? by Shikaku · · Score: 1

      ... :( stop making me feel old.

    3. Re:Last 3 decades? by Stormwatch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Centuries start on the "01" year rather than the "00" year, so shouldn't decades start on the "x1" year as well? Meaning, right now we're in the LAST year of this decade.

    4. Re:Last 3 decades? by KingSkippus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Centuries start on the "01" year rather than the "00" year, so shouldn't decades start on the "x1" year as well? Meaning, right now we're in the LAST year of this decade.

      I never recognized that convention. But then, I've been a computer sciency geek as long as I can remember, so I started counting at year zero. It's still 2009 to me.

      Seriously, though, although you're technically right, practically speaking, I accept that most people think of 2010 as the first year of the '10s, just as most people thought of 2000 as the first year of the new millennium. Yeah, pedantically speaking they're wrong, but it doesn't really make a difference and people tend to hate "that guy" who feels the compulsive need to correct everyone.

      If you're programming software that has to calculate time differentials across the BC/AD boundary, then by gummy, have at it. But otherwise, my advice is to not make an issue of it. Choose more worthwhile battles to fight, lest people not pay attention to you when you are arguing about something important because you make all skirmishes into full-scale battles.

    5. Re:Last 3 decades? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends. The 200th decade AD was 1991-2000, but the 90s were 1990-1999. Why should everything be (for want of a better term) word-aligned?

  6. Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so, bridging the digital divide means being able to order stuff from abroad and pay online? Great.

  7. That's how it used to work by Animats · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's the way international ordering used to work. You had to order stuff through some import company or freight forwarder, which had business relationships with foreign suppliers. You paid the import company, they ordered, handled the shipping, and sold the item to you with a markup. That's how it worked back in the days of sailing ships.

    Note that this Ugandan company doesn't have a posted price list. You have to ask for a quote before they tell you how much they're going to mark up your Amazon.com order. So they're probably expensive.

    1. Re:That's how it used to work by ls671 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > and sold the item to you with a markup. That's how it worked back in the days of sailing ships.

      It is the same with Paypal and credit cards with the difference that the merchant pays the markup.

      In the end, merchants adjust their prices to compensate for the paid markup. The consumer always end up paying in any business model.

      As I stated in another post, I hope those people are reliable and that they won't abuse anybody because of their positioning. Given the fact that some people complain about the way Paypal behaves, it seems like a reasonable wish to make.

      http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1630376&cid=31971982

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    2. Re:That's how it used to work by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      It is the same with Paypal and credit cards with the difference that the merchant pays the markup.
      The thing with services like this is you end up paying TWICE. You end up paying card/paypal fees shipping etc to the original vendor, and then you end up paying them again to the forwarder plus the forwarder needs to cover thier time and efford making and forwarding the order and make some profit.

      Sometimes you end up paying sales tax in the forwarder's jurisdiction too (at least that was the case when I looked into using a service called "shop any american store" to get an item from the US sent to the UK).

      The net result is that this is an expensive way to buy stuff. If I can find a vendor who will ship direct it will almost certainly be much cheaper.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    3. Re:That's how it used to work by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

      From what I know about Hungaria, I wouldn't be to worried about it.
      Now if they were from Bulgaria or Romania, that would be a different story.
      In that case you could just as well flush your dollars down the toilet.

      --
      Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
    4. Re:That's how it used to work by ls671 · · Score: 1

      > The thing with services like this is you end up paying TWICE.

      Yep, for various reasons, it costs more to buy goods and services depending on where you live, even in some parts of North America. Try Dawson City, Yukon for example ;-))

      So I still say it is not a unique situation; the consumer always end up paying a markup to get the goods while the total markup percentage may vary depending on where you live.

      I admit although that since apparently nobody provided the service before (no competition), they probably end up being expensive ;-))

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
  8. Credit cards blocked in Africa? by Paktu · · Score: 1

    "Most merchants and payment gateway providers automatically block all credit cards from Africa"
    Would someone knowledgable explain the reasoning behind this? I know Africa has more than its share of scammers, but why couldn't a merchant simply set rules requiring the funds to clear, a minimum amount of time between the purchase date and ship date, etc.? Why is an outright ban needed?

    1. Re:Credit cards blocked in Africa? by timmarhy · · Score: 1

      because the problem is just so huge in some African countries, and the profit from operating there so small it's just not worth dealing with. the sad thing is Africans see these scammers as hero's, when it's really them holding everyone else back.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    2. Re:Credit cards blocked in Africa? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's based on previous bad experience wrt losses incurred. It's bad business.

    3. Re:Credit cards blocked in Africa? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It is not true; I think a few countries are blocked, but not the whole continent (I've been living in "Africa" for most of my life and my "African" credit card has never been blocked because me in "Africa" or my credit card belonging to an "African" bank). I think part of the problem is when people talk of Africa as this one state (it's not; it consists of many countries and cultures, from arabs in the North East to whites @ Cape Point). Have look at Western news - They tend to talk about something happening in Africa and not the specific country in question. One example is a famous cricketer (British) that went on holiday - the press put it like this: "Peterson went on holiday in France, Italy and Africa". See the problem? Until journalists educate themselves about Africa and realise that it is not this single country with a single culture, people reading the news will still think of Africa where lions walk in the streets throughout the whole continent.

      (I know that (some) countries in Africa have problems, but this is not the point of my post).

    4. Re:Credit cards blocked in Africa? by cbraescu1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most merchants and payment gateway providers automatically block all credit cards from Africa

      This is a silly phrase.

      Africa is a continent, not a country. Nobody can block cards "from Africa", since cards are issued "per country".

      Now, let me tell you something: cards from South Africa, Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco are not blocked. Cards from Nigeria, Uganda are blocked. It's about the fraud rate originating from a specific country, not about some continent-wide blockade.

      --
      Catalin Braescu
      Ofaly.com
    5. Re:Credit cards blocked in Africa? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Peterson went on holiday in France, Italy and Africa". See the problem?

      No, I don't.

      Until journalists educate themselves about Africa and realise that it is not this single country

      Who said it was?

      If I say "Last year I holidayed in the Lake District, this year we're going to Canada and next year we're hoping to tour round Europe" that's perfectly valid.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:Credit cards blocked in Africa? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Africa is a continent, not a country. Nobody can block cards "from Africa", since cards are issued "per country".

      Assuming you have a countries table and it has the continent on it, yes you can.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    7. Re:Credit cards blocked in Africa? by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Assuming you have a countries table and it has the continent on it, yes you can.

      But you only would if you were brain dead or racist. If some African countries don't give you problems why would you block them? If some European countries gave you problems would you block the whole continent?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    8. Re:Credit cards blocked in Africa? by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Now, let me tell you something: cards from South Africa, Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco are not blocked. Cards from Nigeria, Uganda are blocked. It's about the fraud rate originating from a specific country, not about some continent-wide blockade.

      Look at a map.
      North Africa: Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt
      Sub-Saharan Africa: All the countries whose cards are blocked, except for South Africa.

      North & Sub-Saharan Africa might as well be two different continents, in much the same way that we normally talk about India, Russia, and the Middle East separately from "Asia" even though they're all properly part of the same continent.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    9. Re:Credit cards blocked in Africa? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > But you only would if you were brain dead or racist.

      Irrelevant. Claim was that it can't be done.

      You must be African.

  9. Ob by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's interesting that people complain how Africa is a third world country

    Some of us are better informed. We know that it's a continent containing a large number of third world countries.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  10. The truth is somewhere in the middle - been there. by Shag · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've been there several times, and Uganda - like most former colonies in Africa - isn't so much fucked up as it was fucked over. Faced with the lack of a middle-class (since of course they didn't want to stoop to being middle class, nor did they want any of the Africans to rise to that status) the British empire imported Indians by the score. Post-independence, there was all kinds of unrest, eventually culminating with Idi Amin kicking out all the Indians, which of course failed to solve anything because it wasn't like the locals were ready to take over their jobs or anything. Cue another 10-15 years of unrest, a couple coups, Museveni lets the Indians back in, they go right back to business and become more wealthy and powerful than ever, and aside from lingering problems with transboundary rebel groups in the far northwest near the borders with Sudan and Congo, the place has actually been relatively peaceful and stable for 25 years.

    Unfortunately, given the history 1960-1985, development was starting from a pretty bad position - but it's been developing crazy-fast. The African Union's NEPAD (New Partnership for Africa's Development) project has been pushing good governance, anti-corruption, computers in schools and all that stuff, and Uganda's national planning authority just released a 5-year development plan, written by development professionals without consulting the parliament (which the parliament are pissed about, hehe!), and emphasizing electrification, high-tech industry, mass transit, and a bunch of other good ideas.

    Of course, Uganda's still less developed than anywhere in the US except for maybe some back-woods hillbilly shack - my fiancée helped with editing the 5-year plan, and her apartment, just a few km from downtown Kampala, is at the end of a dirt lane, off another dirt lane, off a dirt road, off a paved road. And it's more surprising if the power stays on all day than if it doesn't.

    The good news, though, is that thanks to some development aid partners (like Norway), it's being given development options other than "get as much oil as possible and build your economy around it" (a.k.a. the US-China model). Norway is huge on hydropower, and Uganda has a lot of potential in that area. Straddling the equator, there's plenty of solar potential too. So there's hope, at least, to preserve some of the environment, which of course is being exploited through eco-tourism.

    As far as getting goods to Uganda, though... sheez, this is dead on. Never, ever try to mail anything there. I don't know whether it's customs or the postal service that's corrupt, but it's like mailing things into a black hole. I think one or two postcards I sent might have made it through. Even Express Mail doesn't get any respect. If you want to get anything to anyone, it's FedEx/DHL or bust.

    The goods sold in stores have pretty much been shipped overland from Mombasa (in a barroom, drinking gin *weeps for Warren*). Former UK colony, so they're all UK-spec electrically. In '05 or '06, a clock-radio you'd pay $19 for at WalMart cost $100 due to all that shipping. Thankfully, things have gotten a little better now, but an unlocked iPhone 3G S is still $1200+. Oh, yes, there are iPhones. There's an Apple authorized reseller right downtown in Kampala, although there's an unhealthy lag for them to actually get each new revision of things in-stock. Some of the bigger regional supermarkets even carry US brands.

    But credit cards... yeah, they're a novelty over there. Ugandans hardly use credit. A young man will bust his ass to get through school, then work like crazy and live on almost nothing, until he saves up enough cash to buy land and build enough of his dream house to live in. They're insanely hard-working. So basically you either meet people who have nothing (because they're working and saving) or you meet guys who are 25 and already have a large house, nice car, etc. Not so much in-between. And not on credit.

    4 years ago, you could walk aroun

    --
    Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
  11. Africa is fungible and unpleasant by symbolset · · Score: 1, Insightful

    To promote aid in most regions of Africa, you have to be prepared to deliver that aid against armed resistance, or accept that that aid might be coopted to feed the army that oppresses people who need aid. That's not really helping.

    I really do want to help these folk, and I can think of no better way to do that than to repeat the message of the great (and missed) Sam Kinnison: Move to where the food is. You're in a freaking desert where things don't grow. MOVE.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:Africa is fungible and unpleasant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Aha, but we don't let them. Immigration into the land of milk and honey is nigh impossible for these third-worlders and in case they start uprooting the rainforest, we make that a preserve (except where we do the uprooting in our own interests). We plunder their natural resources and cut them out of the loop, often by controlling their resistance through helping the oppressive regimes. Telling the people of Africa to "move to where the food is" is cynical at best. Besides, food isn't the biggest problem in most parts of Africa. It isn't all a desert, you know?

    2. Re:Africa is fungible and unpleasant by Weedhopper · · Score: 3, Interesting

      To promote aid in most regions of Africa, you have to be prepared to deliver that aid against armed resistance, or accept that that aid might be coopted to feed the army that oppresses people who need aid. That's not really helping.

      I've worked in medical/humanitarian for the better part of a decade, mostly in Africa, in some of the most active conflict areas. I have worked in Darfur, eastern Congo/the Kivus, northern Uganda, etc during some of the peaks in violence and insecurity. I have never delivered aid against armed resistance, nor do I know anyone or any organization who has. That's movie/TV stuff, not reality.

      Second, of course aid will be coopted, redirected or siphoned to various armed groups. That is the nature of armed groups, to take by force.

      The "not really helping" comment - actually, the entire paragraph reveals your naivety - it is impossible to provide aid without a diversion, either into the grey/black markets, pockets of armed factions, open markets.

      I really do want to help these folk, and I can think of no better way to do that than to repeat the message of the great (and missed) Sam Kinnison: Move to where the food is. You're in a freaking desert where things don't grow. MOVE.

      An ignorant joke that only makes sense or is funny when the listener has no knowledge of the subject.

      The mostly heavily populated areas of Africa are temperate. Humans evolved on the African high plains. Think about it.

    3. Re:Africa is fungible and unpleasant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thing is, much of subsahara africa was a bread basket (zimbabwe for example). now, perfectly fertile land is laying fallow because the farmer can not compete with american aid food, the warlords and such will raid their farm, and there is no water for growing european and NA crops (canola, yams, and other root crops do great there, but rich countries don't like them)

      when you can't sell your crops without getting pushed out by subsidized foreign stuff or getting pinched by the goon squad, begging looks like a better choice.

      if we want to fix the problem, we should help them with irrigation, bust up the warlords, and stop flooding their markets with our excess.
      otherwise they will be dependant on the west forever

    4. Re:Africa is fungible and unpleasant by symbolset · · Score: 1

      In Zimbabwe they were the breadbasket of Africa. But their farmers were white, the descendants of European colonists mostly. They ran off the white farmers or killed them - by government mandate - and gave their farms to Army thugs with no training, experience or motivation to be farmers.

      Now Zimbabwe needs food aid.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    5. Re:Africa is fungible and unpleasant by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

      To promote aid in most regions of Africa, you have to be prepared to deliver that aid against armed resistance, or accept that that aid might be coopted to feed the army that oppresses people who need aid. That's not really helping.

      I really do want to help these folk, and I can think of no better way to do that than to repeat the message of the great (and missed) Sam Kinnison: Move to where the food is. You're in a freaking desert where things don't grow. MOVE.

      I think Africa and the Africans will be just fine w/o your help or that of "the great and not so missed Sam Kinnison".
      Last time I checked the age where white people were allowed to tell Africans where (not) to settle within their very own continent is thankfully over with.

      Why don't you go to Las Vegas and tell the folks there to demolish their own town and move to where the water is?

      --
      Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
    6. Re:Africa is fungible and unpleasant by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Second, of course aid will be coopted, redirected or siphoned to various armed groups. That is the nature of armed groups, to take by force.

      By your own admission the aid you're providing is being "coopted, redirected or siphoned to various armed groups." By importing this aid you're empowering and paying those groups to continue to oppress the people you're trying to help. In fact, they need to do that to keep up the flow of aid to steal. I'm going to stick with "that's not really helping".

      Naivety? Look at yourself before you try to stick that pin.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    7. Re:Africa is fungible and unpleasant by Weedhopper · · Score: 1

      How old are you, 12?

  12. Re:The truth is somewhere in the middle - been the by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Faced with the lack of a middle-class (since of course they didn't want to stoop to being middle class, nor did they want any of the Africans to rise to that status) the British empire imported Indians by the score. Post-independence, there was all kinds of unrest, eventually culminating with Idi Amin kicking out all the Indians, which of course failed to solve anything because it wasn't like the locals were ready to take over their jobs or anything.

    Whose fault was that? Sure, the situation he inherited wasn't ideal, but you have to play the cards in your hand.

    Amin could equally have chosen not to expel the Indians.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  13. Please help me! by leachlife4 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now the tables have turned:

    I am an American prince and I need your help to access my millions of dollars being held in a bank, and in return I will let you keep 10%.

    All you have to do to get you share of the money is to wire me $3000 for the unlocking fee at the bank.

    1. Re:Please help me! by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Hey, you already have enough money. Stop posting that request everywhere.

  14. Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by Eunuchswear · · Score: 4, Interesting

    To promote aid in most regions of Africa, you have to be prepared to deliver that aid against armed resistance, or accept that that aid might be coopted to feed the army that oppresses people who need aid. That's not really helping.

    Patent nonsense.

    Most regions of Africa don't need food aid.

    Most regions of African don't have ongoing armed conflict.

    I really do want to help these folk, and I can think of no better way to do that than to repeat the message of the great (and missed) Sam Kinnison: Move to where the food is.

    So you campaign for open borders?

    You're in a freaking desert where things don't grow. MOVE.

    Most of the inhabited regions of Africa are not deserts. Things grow.

    Africa has problems, but it is not the starving hell-hole you seem to think it is.

    --
    Watch this Heartland Institute video
    1. Re:Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Since you would school me, specifically which part of Africa is immune to these ills?

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    2. Re:Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm an American citizen living in Mexico. I can hear the gunfire from the drug wars outside, and I have an armored car that I use the fight my way to the shops to get food so that I can hunker down at home hoping that some drug-crazed loony doesn't smash my door down and take my wife into white slavery for drug money.

      Not.

      Having lived and worked in Africa as well as a few other "third world" countries, I totally agree with the above poster. The new agencies don't like to post news about the latest nice thing that happened - they like it better then people shoot each other because that rather, umm, unusual. Are there problems in Africa? Sure. Are there problems in Detriot? You betcha. The vast majority of people in any of these places are hard working honest souls who would just like to join the rest of the world.

      What are you worried about? Do you think they would compete with you?

    3. Re:Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      The countries of Africa are:

        Algeria
        Angola
        Benin
        Botswana
        Burkina Faso
        Burundi
        Cameroon
        Cape Verde
        Central African Republic
        Chad
        Comoros
        Côte d'Ivoire
        Democratic Republic of the Congo
        Djibouti
        Egypt
        Equatorial Guinea
        Eritrea
        Ethiopia
        Gabon
        Ghana
        Guinea
        Guinea-Bissau
        Kenya
        Lesotho
        Liberia
        Libya
        Madagascar
        Malawi
        Mali
        Mauritania
        Mauritius
        Morocco
        Mozambique
        Namibia
        Niger
        Nigeria
        Republic of the Congo
        Rwanda
        Senegal
        Seychelles
        Sierra Leone
        South Africa
        Sudan
        Swaziland
        São Tomé and Príncipe
        Tanzania
        The Gambia
        Togo
        Tunisia
        Uganda
        Zambia
        Zimbabwe

      How man of them currently have ongoing armed conflict?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    4. Re:Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Would you please just explain yourself? He admitted ignorance and asked for knowledge. I'm doing the same.

    5. Re:Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Would you please just explain yourself? He admitted ignorance and asked for knowledge. I'm doing the same.

      Well, you take the list I posted, and remove the countries where there is armed conflict and that gives you some idea of where there is peace.

      Where is there conflict at the moment?

      Probably the worst is in the Congo, near the Rwanda/Burundi border. (The Congo is insanely huge and difficult to move around in, the rest of the country is probably pretty calm).

      There may still be some minor fighting in the Darfur region of Sudan, but nothing like previous levels.

      I think the LRA may still be pissing around in the far north of Uganda.

      There has been some inter-communal violence in Nigeria.

      There is some trouble in Angola's enclave Cabinda.

      There is still fighting in Somalia. And pirates. (Did anyone outside France hear about the recent pirate attack on a French warship? Poor buggers mistook a fleet supply vessel it for a civilian ship.)

      There's a bit or terrorism up north (Algeria, Niger and so on).

      Any I've forgotten?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    6. Re:Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by pommiekiwifruit · · Score: 1

      That's what he was asking! From memory, most of those have turned up in the news as having bloody wars in the last twenty years, let alone insurgents. At the very least Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Burundi, Liberia, Congo, Mozambique, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, Sudan have had nasty wars recently. Probably a few more I have forgotten about. Nigeria is filled with religious tension between Islamic and christian areas and also anti-oil company violence. There are/were armed groups in Zimbabwe, Uganda (killing tourists) Egypt (ditto) and a fair bit of violent crime in South Africa. Even the Seychelles now has Somalian pirates picking off boats nearby, and that applies to Kenya and I guess Comoros as well. Mauritius is probably the nicest/safest of those places to visit.

    7. Re:Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Well, I checked the US State Department's travel advisory page, and they also mention Chad, Mali, the Central African Republic, Angola, and a few other spots. Most of those are about the risk of kidnapping, violent crime, or armed robbery rather than warnings of active, ongoing conflict, but it would be a strange criminal element that preyed only on foreigners.

      That having been said, you're right that feeding the population is not generally a problem.

    8. Re:Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by 2obvious4u · · Score: 1

      Nope, just the genocidal hell-hole. Remember Uganda is the country that has the death penalty for homosexuals.

    9. Re:Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Remember Uganda is the country that has the death penalty for homosexuals.

      Well, I remember that some Americans went to Uganda claiming to be "experts in homosexuality" and warned "the gay movement is an evil institution". A "previously unknown Ugandan politician" then introduced a bill, which as far as I know has not been passed.

      Has it been passed? Could you provide a reference?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    10. Re:Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Oh, yes, this is fun, while doing some searches to find out the current status of this bill I ran across this thread.

      Some choice quotes:

      Five Republican representatives - Chris Smith, Frank Wolf, Joe Pitts, Trent Franks and Anh "Joseph" Cao - have written a letter to Ugandan President Yoweri Mouseveni pressing him to stop pending legislation that would severely criminalize homosexuality and sometimes impose the death penalty for homosexual acts.

      replies:

      To: markomalley
      Are these Log Cabin Republicans ?
      4 posted on Wed 23 Dec 2009 02:58:08 CET by libh8er

      To: markomalley
      I'd like to get a copy of the bill and introduce it here...
      7 posted on Wed 23 Dec 2009 03:05:28 CET by maddog55 (Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.)

      To: maddog55
      And they wonder why they lose elections and constituents
      TEABAGGER or FISTER you decide
      9 posted on Wed 23 Dec 2009 03:10:48 CET by eyeamok

      To: eyeamok
      Republicans have become so gay.Pray for the Republic.
      11 posted on Wed 23 Dec 2009 03:14:10 CET by MotorCityBuck ( Keep the change, you filthy animal!)

      To: ElectronVolt; darkangel82
      If these congressmen or whatever they are wrote strongly worded letters to every government around the world for every repressive law, then their actions, if not making sense, would at least be consistent.
      Do they write letters to all the Muslim countries protesting their laws against freedom of speech and religion? Making it a crime to be a Christian/Jew/Buddhist/Hindu?
      No?
      Then they should STFU about Uganda's internal business.
      Are homosexual acts so sacred and worthy that protesting laws against them should be more important than other laws in other countries that legalize torture and death for all manner of freedoms we take for granted?
      This is just a sop to their pevert constituency.
      16 posted on Wed 23 Dec 2009 03:39:11 CET by little jeremiah (Asato Ma Sad Gamaya Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya)

      To: markomalley
      Bravo for Uganda for not allowing the homosexualization of their country.
      35 posted on Thu 24 Dec 2009 01:38:58 CET by Neoliberalnot ((Freedom's Precious Metals: Gold, Silver and Lead))

      A genocidal hell hole indeed.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    11. Re:Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by 2obvious4u · · Score: 1

      No, you're right. I do realize that American 'Evangelicals' pushed the homosexual bill, but for a while it had a lot of media traction and looked like it was going to pass. I guess I shouldn't over-react in a public forum.

      However Africa as a whole still has issues with Genocide, this time with references:
      Rwanda
      Darfur
      Western Sahara

      That being said I would love to go to Africa and help locals build roads and sanitation. With roads come security and sanitation comes health. Commerce and stability would follow. Any other aid usually gets in the way.

    12. Re:Most of africa is rather nice, actually. by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Rwanda was clearly a genocide. Why it happened is enormously less clear. What was the US and French involvement?

      Was Darfur a genocide? That's not so clear. Who pushed for Darfur to be considered a genocide, that's also pretty murky. Why do the people who consider Darfur a genocide base the numbers of deaths on research by the same team, using the same techniques, that came up with the 100,000 - 1,000,000 death figures for Iraq but deny those death rates for Iraq?

      Western Sahara? A new one for me. I've always been vaguely pro-Polosario but (don't tell my Moroccan cow-orkers) but I don't know much about what's been going on lately.

      Is all of this unique to Africa?

      That being said I would love to go to Africa and help locals build roads and sanitation. With roads come security and sanitation comes health. Commerce and stability would follow. Any other aid usually gets in the way.

      Worthy sentiments.

      My experience is not that Africa needs things being built, it needs things to be repaired. (Many many roads get built. In a couple of years the African sun and rain turns them into long chains of potholes).

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
  15. Re:The truth is somewhere in the middle - been the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dude, Idi Amin did that like 40 years ago - that's at least two generations, maybe more given the mortality rate there.
    Sounds like they are playing the cards in their hard.

  16. PalPal is a criminal organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They will seize your money. Happens all the time.

  17. The Land of Milk and honey by symbolset · · Score: 1

    First, the moral position: If I was them, I'd come here. I can't hold it against them if they do what I would do if I were in their place. How could I do that? I could tell myself I was an idiot? Legal? What is legal? If your daughter needs bread you do what you have to do to get her bread - weather, obstacles, international borders notwithstanding. The borders don't matter to her - if she doesn't get calories she'll die no matter which side of a border she's on.

    Telling the people of Africa to "move to where the food is" is cynical at best.

    Actually, none of them are reading this because Internet access is sparse in the Sahele, and they have other stuff to look at. That means I'm being insentive for show to my fellow Internet geeks. Yeah, that's what this is about.

    You're probably pinning me as some "don't care" prick. I really do care. I just don't see what I can do. If I give these people money, it winds up in the hands of the junta that's killing them.

    Look, this is Africa. I have a reasonable amount of disposabe income and if I could actually help the poor there with it they could have it. But I can't. The best I can do is to say: move to where the food is. If you can find a path out of Africa, go!.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:The Land of Milk and honey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The things which hurt Africa the most are all external to Africa: Stop the exploitation of Africa's resources which destroys the local environment (and thus livelihood of the people) but doesn't let them participate in the value of these resources. "Fair trade" is an attempt to better the situation, but the biggest impact is made by mining and drilling for raw resources, which are typically not available at fair trade shops. (Also look into the financial system's role in this mess: We leave these countries no choice but to "pay" with their resources after we've put them deep into debt.)

      Arms dealing with the third world is a big factor. Again, this is not something which the people in Africa can control. This is our doing, we need to stop it.

      Helping the third world is always about giving them food or money to buy food, i.e. about sustaining their plight just above starvation level. How about we stop robbing them blind?

    2. Re:The Land of Milk and honey by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      First, the moral position: If I was them, I'd come here. I can't hold it against them if they do what I would do if I were in their place. How could I do that? I could tell myself I was an idiot? Legal?

      Immigration policy doesn't have anything to do with moral superiority, and although there are people trying to make the case on the basis of racism, that's really not useful to immigration policy either.

      The reason to have an immigration policy is because you can only assimilate so many people into your culture. And if you're talking about a refugee situation where part of the problem is cultural, you've got to set your limits at somewhere where you're going to be able to assimilate the newcomers, or you'll choke and lose your own culture and risk losing the success that came with it as well.

      Now, you need to do an honest assessment of your assimilation ability, or you'll end up doing silly things like keeping the same quotas you had when your country was a tenth its current population, and you need to enforce that policy, or.. you don't have a policy, and worse, you have established a precedent for ignoring policies in other areas as well.

      But you can't just say, "well, let's not have a policy, then, if it means we have to turn people away" unless you're willing to live with the consequences, one of which being the very real possibility of an equalization of conditions, in favor of the less favorable conditions.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  18. Not for the poorest of the poor. by wvmarle · · Score: 1

    Terrible summary again. In good /. fashion I didn't RTFA - it may be better but not likely.

    TFS suggests this helps "the poorest of the poor". Now how those people would get the money to buy goods over the Internet (almost by definition luxury goods - if only due to the added cost of shipping) is beyond me. The poor generally spend most of their money on housing and food, neither you can buy over the internet (basic food of course; not the luxury stuff). They will buy their stuff at the local markets, generally cheaper than over the Internet.

    This is obviously a service for the upper class only, those with money that can afford such luxury goods.

    And this is even less "bridging the digital divide" as all it does is allowing people that have an Internet connection already to actually use it to spend money overseas. It does not bring digital tech to the poor that do not have it yet, nor does it make Internet connections cheaper, faster, or more readily available.

    This is just a commercial business, intent on making money by exploiting some hole in the market: in this case trying to solve the problem of payments from Africa and transportation of goods to Africa. Both which I can imagine are real issues. But there is surely no philanthropy involved as suggested in TFS.

    1. Re:Not for the poorest of the poor. by sourcerror · · Score: 1

      Is buying university textbooks on the internet luxury? It's not aiming the poorest, but it can still have positive side effects on them.

    2. Re:Not for the poorest of the poor. by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      I get the idea but it's a poor example as getting to university, maybe even being able to read in the first place, indicates higher education, which is expensive, and in many poor countries only for the upper class. The rest of the people doesn't have the money - if only to not have to work and have time to study.

    3. Re:Not for the poorest of the poor. by glodime · · Score: 1

      Terrible summary again. In good /. fashion I didn't RTFA....

      That's OK. In this case, the summary is the article (or TFA, if you prefer slashdot colloquialism). The only link in the summary is to the website of the payment service described, namely, EasyPayUganda.

    4. Re:Not for the poorest of the poor. by sourcerror · · Score: 1

      If there aren't enough qualified people the country will have a hard time building a prospering economy. If education is fucked the whole country is fucked.

  19. Re:The truth is somewhere in the middle - been the by Shag · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Life expectancy is an aggregate, of course, and you can drag it down real fast with childhood, neonatal and maternal mortality. Sure, I know Ugandans whose kids died young, and I know ones whose kids died as young adults, and I know of people who died in their 50s or 60s, but I also know ones who are 70+ and have heard of them living to 90 or more. And of course, among the Indians, who tend to be moderately well-off, the numbers may be different. The richest man in the country, Sudhir Ruparelia (you can google him) is a hotelier who was a teenager when they were ejected; I'd put him in perhaps his late 50s now, and certainly he can afford the best medical care.

    By the way, I've nothing against Uganda's Indians or Mr. Ruparelia; I've stayed at his flagship property before and my fiancée is well-acquainted with his people as well. Had the Brits handled things differently 100 years ago, perhaps the kind of perverse logic Amin espoused would never have arisen, but what's done is done.

    --
    Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
  20. Re:The truth is somewhere in the middle - been the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    learn English. Your reply has nothing to do with the post you're replying to.

  21. Take it from an African by musmax · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm an African, a white one that is. My progenitor arrived in the Cape of Good hope in 1697, the latest family register counts the member of white descendent of my family close to 6k, the number of brown/black descendants are unknown, those that kept the original family name and are classified "coloured*" are a 1000 or so, but I digress. Africa is indeed fucked up, this is primarily due to Africans, not Europeans or "Colonialists" but africans themselves. Africans are not simply less fortunate white people with black skin. They have fundamentally different world views and cognitive abilities. I cannot compete with a black African digging a ditch, he can keep at it for hours and hours, the last 30 years has seen most of the Olympic track and field go to black Africans. The average black African cannot plan or appreciate cause and effect to the degree that another member of the species would find to be "common sense". I believe this to be a wetware problem, not simply due to culture or lack of education or opportunities. This, of course makes me a racist, or at best, or a white supremacists. I have grown comfortable with that label. I'd rather be that than delusional.

    I've also realised that most non african whites simply have no clue or opinions worth considering when it comes to race related matters. You have no clue, have no real experience dealing with people significantly more different than yourselves. Come to South Africa for the Soccer World Cup, you will gain what you lack. You might not like what you may become.

    * Americans note: Your president is "coloured", not black, regardless of what he claims to be. If Africa had 10% of the calibre of Obama's the continent would be a unstoppable superpower. But be not alarmed, barring a mind-enhancing super virile pandemic mind-enhancing air-borne virus, infecting every african, your position is save.

    1. Re:Take it from an African by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What you said about blacks is the same I could say about manual laborers in Germany (and I mean locally born ones, not immigrants), having a manual labor job simply builds a lot of strength and endurance but smart people will usually take the better paid office jobs instead. As for common sense, considering the logic the ancient Greeks espoused at times (Socrates' apology... *shudder*) I don't think what we call "common sense" really is so universal to the species, it's built by the society around it. A thousand years ago (that's right in the medieval age) the average European peasant would have been equally confounded by any talk about cause and effect.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:Take it from an African by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Hey, Eugene, I thought you were dead!

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    3. Re:Take it from an African by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

      I'm an African, a white one that is. My progenitor arrived in the Cape of Good hope in 1697, the latest family register counts the member of white descendent of my family close to 6k, the number of brown/black descendants are unknown, those that kept the original family name and are classified "coloured*" are a 1000 or so, but I digress. Africa is indeed fucked up, this is primarily due to Africans, not Europeans or "Colonialists" but africans themselves. Africans are not simply less fortunate white people with black skin. They have fundamentally different world views and cognitive abilities. I cannot compete with a black African digging a ditch, he can keep at it for hours and hours, the last 30 years has seen most of the Olympic track and field go to black Africans. The average black African cannot plan or appreciate cause and effect to the degree that another member of the species would find to be "common sense". I believe this to be a wetware problem, not simply due to culture or lack of education or opportunities. This, of course makes me a racist, or at best, or a white supremacists. I have grown comfortable with that label. I'd rather be that than delusional.

      I've also realised that most non african whites simply have no clue or opinions worth considering when it comes to race related matters. You have no clue, have no real experience dealing with people significantly more different than yourselves. Come to South Africa for the Soccer World Cup, you will gain what you lack. You might not like what you may become.

      * Americans note: Your president is "coloured", not black, regardless of what he claims to be. If Africa had 10% of the calibre of Obama's the continent would be a unstoppable superpower. But be not alarmed, barring a mind-enhancing super virile pandemic mind-enhancing air-borne virus, infecting every african, your position is save.

      Mr. you sound like a white boorish motherfucking a*hole and are about as African as Heinrich Himmler was.
      To you I sing a "one settler, one bullet" any time of the day or night for free !

      Take this from damn *real* African, who can trace his family tree back at least as far as you do and can show African freedom fighters in each and every generation of the same.
      And I come from a country that had the nick name "white man's grave" during the colonial era - and I just love that one :-)

      My Grandfather, Father, Uncles were/are *all* Engineers, Doctors and Academics of international acclaim.
      I myself have managed 1000 server landscapes for international fortune 500 companies on 3 different continents.

      You think your freaking white skin color makes you my better? I'll eat you up for breakfast and spit you out for lunch!

      --
      Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
    4. Re:Take it from an African by Mr.+Lwanga · · Score: 1

      After reading such vomit inducing drivel from my fellow African, the parent should have been titled, "Take it from an Afrikaner". I mean that in the most unpleasant way, which the original inhabitants of Southern Africa have had to do endure for generations.

    5. Re:Take it from an African by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

      If that musmax moron thinks he's an African, then I think we can nominate the resurrected Cecil Rhodes for leadership of the African Union next.
      I used to have a lot of sympathy for the plight of the Boorish, but *every* time I read or hear from them directly, all that goes just straight out the window.
      While many British have actually tried to improve the lot of the people in their adapted homelands, the Boors never had anything else to offer but racism and disgust for their host nations.

      Time to get rid of them and deport 'em all back to the Low Countries.

      --
      Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
    6. Re:Take it from an African by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      For the record, it's Boer. As in the dutch word for farmer.

      Ah, the 2 great additions of the dutch to the english language...polder and apartheid. One was a great accomplishment which we still enjoy. The other is a crying shame which, as the dear GP shows, still exists.

      Oh well, at least guys like him have been relegated to the "fucking wackjob" fringe where they belong. What remains to be seen is how long it'll take to repair the damage.

      As for the GP himself...if you want to see what a real bunch of inferior animals looks like...come and watch a football match like Ajax-Feyenoord in the country your ancestors came from all those centuries ago. White supremacy, my ass.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    7. Re:Take it from an African by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are indeed a racist, sir, and I'm glad you're so comfortable with the label. But even worse, your argument doesn't even make sense.

      According to you, un-miscegnated Black Africans cannot distinguish right or wrong in a modern sense. Thanks, I'll tell all my fellow African diasporans who grew up and were educated in their various African countries and now live hard-working, productive and professional lives across the globe, that they are resisting their natural tendencies and they should fall back to their natural instincts.

      And what, pray tell, does the physical endurance of an African labourer compared to yourself have to do with the premise that such an African has no common sense? Your slip is showing, sir, and it's not pretty.

  22. Good, you do it then by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    You ship your goods from your small story to Africa then and just take the 100% fraud as the cost of doing ethical business. See how long you survive.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  23. Fraud from neighbors and no demand by tepples · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If some African countries don't give you problems why would you block them?

    Because there is an indication that they are more likely than not to give us problems. Too many countries on that continent that aren't South Africa or Egypt fit the following pattern: We see an unacceptable rate of fraud from the country's neighbors, enough to extrapolate the likelihood of fraud within the borders of that country, and not enough complaints from people in the country.

    1. Re:Fraud from neighbors and no demand by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      We see an unacceptable rate of fraud from the country's neighbors, enough to extrapolate the likelihood of fraud within the borders of that country

      So you when see a lot of fraud from Romania you block transactions from Hungary. How odd.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
  24. Non-free textbooks are a luxury by tepples · · Score: 1

    Textbooks that aren't licensed freely are a luxury. If there isn't yet a good free book on a given subject, whose fault is that?

    1. Re:Non-free textbooks are a luxury by sourcerror · · Score: 1

      If there isn't yet a good free book [wikibooks.org] on a given subject, whose fault is that?

      I don't know, but it's irrelevant to the Ugandan student.

  25. advantages of the online economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IIRC, even in the U.S., no one has been harnessing the advantages of the online economy for the last 30 years, more like 15.

  26. Shipping to Africa is as safe as wiring your money by zelik · · Score: 3, Informative

    Anyone who complains about foreign companies not "helping Uganda" or Africa in general by denying sales transactions with them has obviously never seriously ran an online business. I ran a moderate ecommerce site (google PR6 at the time) and during the 5 years I had it I received about 10 fake or bad orders from Africa daily. Of course, they were all from Nigeria and wanted ridiculous shipping requests (mail to lagarda bus stop (or something like that)) and for exorbitant amounts (40 DVD players) with insane shipping charges (international UPS expedited!). You can't blame a merchant for not wanting to take the risks of dealing with Africa. One bad experience can cost you quite a bit and credit card companies will never side with the merchant. If you want to blame somebody, blame the credit card companies who place most of the blame on merchants for any fraud that occurs.

  27. But a step is being missed by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We had war-torn countries before. Europe was in a bad mess after WW2. My own country, Holland had to build up from mass starvation in the last winter of the war to a modern western nation. But that did NOT happen at once. Dutch living standards took decades to reach American living standards. And in those decades, people did NOT have huge American cars or huge American style homes or living on credit. The post war years were spend working hard and saving lots and then buying modest AND domestic.

    And that seems to be missing in your story. Granted, the working hard is there, but then they buy a iPhone and a big car... understandable, everyone else in the world has it, but it means local industry can't develop. If you buy a Chinese clock radio instead of an african windup clock, then that African factory can never develop to build clock radio's. Why do you think the tiger economies were so hot on producing cars, their own cars? Because if they had just bought American, they would never have developed their own economy long term.

    The African economies/cultures seem to be close to cargo-cults.

    A lot is made of the fact that Africa is skipping the landline and a lot of westerners think this is a great thing. WRONG.

    What pacified the west? The telegraph. Telegraph lines were an essential part of conquering America, they had to be kept safe and so as a side result, any land with a line on it became safe. Same with the rail lines. As the network spread, the lands around them were made safer and became safer.

    If landlines can't be installed in Africa because it is not safe, then installing a wireless network is NOT dealing with this safety issue. It doesn't matter wheter you attribute the taming of the west to train, the postal service or the telegraph. The building of these networks and the need to protect this network protected the lands around it.

    When something is beyond the pale. What does that mean? Hignfy refreshed my mind on the recently, it refers to the old european punishment of putting wrong do'ers beyond the city limits. Not so long ago, being outside a city and its protection was a serious form of punishment.

    If you can understand the difference that has come over europe were we can't even see why that would be a bad thing, we leave the city for FUN!!!!!, then you can't understand how Africa where lawlessness reigns is missing an essential foundation, an infrastructure for its development.

    It is like building a skycraper on sand. It might look the part, but an essential part is missing, the foundation.

    While this new service might sound like a good idea, I think it is very wrong indeed. It is shipping in western goods and skipping the development of the local economy, industry, infrastructure to truly support it. That you mention you need to use FOREIGN postal services to ship anything is telling enough.

    The postal service is the most fundemental service of any country. Without it, nothing else can function. There is not a single developed country that did not have its own postal service and most still do.

    Skip it and you are a cargo-cult, completly dependent on a foreign entity, who may bear you no malice but simply might one day not come around anymore. An African buying an iPhone at inflated prices is NOT a sign of progress.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:But a step is being missed by Shag · · Score: 1

      If landlines can't be installed in Africa because it is not safe, then installing a wireless network is NOT dealing with this safety issue. It doesn't matter wheter you attribute the taming of the west to train, the postal service or the telegraph. The building of these networks and the need to protect this network protected the lands around it.

      Very interesting point. In Uganda, I would say the issue isn't one of safety at all - it's one of the safest and friendliest countries I've ever been to - but of cost, and of the absence of sanctioned utility monopolies. (In the case of customs or the postal service, I suspect plain old corruption is to blame.) Anywhere in the US, and most places in Europe, the landlines are there because some organization has gotten the government's blessing (and support) to run phone lines everywhere, and since the phone line is going to go right past your house anyway, you may as well hook up to it.

      This has not happened in many "least-developed countries" (a category to which Uganda belonged in the very recent past). Why? Well, what little money the government has is usually going to other higher-priority infrastructure projects, like roadways and electricity. And honestly, I can't be sure it's entirely a bad thing that by the time Uganda got around to developing, landlines and snail mail were largely passé.

      But I certainly agree that in-country production, beyond the agricultural sector (Ugandans are certainly not going to starve!) is negligible. The 5-year plan talks about building more self-sustaining domestic production, and there are mineral or oil resources waiting to be exploited, so hopefully they can stop being a "cargo cult."

      --
      Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
    2. Re:But a step is being missed by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

      It pains me to see how little, next to nothin, you understand about Africa and its problems.

      If you buy a Chinese clock radio instead of an african windup clock, then that African factory can never develop to build clock radio's.

      What "African windup clock radio" are you talking about?!
      And where, by the way, are the Dutch, German or American "windup clock radios"??
      Have you ever been to a back country town in Africa?
      Don't bother to reply to that one, I already know the answer.

      What pacified the west? The telegraph. Telegraph lines were an essential part of conquering America,

      So you got no clue about the American West either. Figures.
      The COLT "pacified the West", and the railway helped conquer it.

      The Telegraph had about as much to do with it as the electric light bulb had with literacy.
      It helped, but it was not the root cause of it.

      Skip it and you are a cargo-cult, completly dependent on a foreign entity,

      Africa depends on Chinese goods, just like any country in Europe, the Americas, Australia or Asia does.
      I just hope Africa will never have to again depend on as unqualified an advise as the one you're giving here.

      --
      Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
    3. Re:But a step is being missed by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Your points about the need for development of the local economy are well taken. However, one must be cautious not to take the other extreme, as for example the North Koreans, that every good or service must be produced locally first and be completely self sufficient to the exclusion of all imports. There is a balance to be struck with local production and economic development and free trade in goods and services. The major problem in Africa, as others have mentioned, has always been poor, underfunded, or completely lacking government agencies combined with inadequate legal protections and corrupt elites who consistently short circuit opportunities for average people to engage in legitimate business; favoring instead their family and cronies. If the Europeans or the Americans or any other western nation attempts to call public attention to these conditions, the African countries band together to accuse us of colonial imperialism and interference in their sovereign affairs. The best that we can do is to make the clear economic, legal and moral case for everyone, including the people of Africa, to see and then let them make changes on their own. These changes must be done by the Africans themselves and not imposed by outside forces, however well intentioned, otherwise nothing will change.

    4. Re:But a step is being missed by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1
      Dutch clock radio's? Philips.

      Idiot.

      --

      MMO Quests are like orgasms:

      You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  28. Too expensive for 99% of ugandans by __aailob1448 · · Score: 1

    As an african third-worlder who welcomes the service, , I'd like to mitigate people's expectations. Shipping prices to Africa are prohibitively expensive and anyone with enough income to afford them knows someone overseas who can facilitate the same service and is part of the elite 1%.

    In other words, this service is mainly for the rich and thus not doing much about the very real digital divide alluded to by the title.

  29. One laptop per child by tepples · · Score: 1

    Irrelevant even if a full set of Free textbooks would fit on an XO laptop?

    1. Re:One laptop per child by sourcerror · · Score: 1

      Content is king. The medium is irrelevant. If the books needed aren't available in XO then it doesn't solves the problem. Were not speaking here some run of the mill generic textbooks, but specialized ones for which there might not be substitute.
      On the other hand: isn't the XO a luxury item in itself?

    2. Re:One laptop per child by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

      That XO concept was a ludicrous publicity stunt.
      Utterly incompatible even with most other Linux distros and woefully short on computing resources.
      What good is a laptop for every child if all that kid can use it for is banging nails into the ground?
      Real hammers are even cheaper than that.

      Instead of wasting money for a silly concept like that, invest in community centers and equip those with real computers.
      Mark every system as property of the community center, equip it with a tracking device and hire a local, trustworthy person to guard the equipment against theft and abuse through corruption.
      Then students (what the heck do little children need laptops for anyway?) can use real computers to do real studies on them.

      --
      Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
  30. Credit cards = evil! by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    the impossibility for a Ugandan to obtain a credit card

    Sorry, but in what weird society is a credit card an ideal over actually non-customer-raping alternatives?
    Credit cards are by their very design made to fuck you over. There is no such thing as a credit card that doesn’t.
    If you do digital payment, do it right. If you do money, do it right.
    Hell, half the reason the US economy is so bad for people, is the money system behind it. For which credit cards — the concept of giving you imaginary money and taking back more than there is actual money, to get free work from you without you noticing ” are an essential part.

    Credit cards? No thanks. I won’t ever in my life take a credit. And if I can, I’ll avoid imaginary money (e.g. €) altogether.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    1. Re:Credit cards = evil! by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Aside from the stupidity of the rest of your post, what makes the Euro any more 'imaginary' than any other fiat currency, such as the British Pound Sterling, or the US Dollar? Is it because it came into existence only a few years ago, rather than a couple of hundred years ago?

  31. In Africa, it's not that simple. by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

    I volunteered in Ghana for six months last year. Ghana's one of the wealthiest countries in Africa, and it's still royally screwed.

    The first problem is simply the result of Mother Nature: Many regions lack sufficient resources to live. Try growing crops in an ever-advancing Sahara. There's barely enough food to live on, let alone sell off elsewhere for profit. Where there is food, there's no building materials, or no electricity, or something else. There are very few places where everything needed is all in one place.

    The solution is transportation, right? Again, it's not that easy. The current national borders are more or less arbitrary, drawn by colonists with only a vague understanding of local culture. In reality, there are many tribes everywhere, each with its own ancestral feuds and allegiances. In trying to force tribes together, war becomes constant. Some shipments leave for their destination and never arrive.

    Furthermore, whichever tribe controls the government has a major influence on what areas are repaired. Africa's environment is harsh. If you think potholes in Detroit are bad, try going down a road that is 100 miles of six-inch washboarding. The government could fix it with a bit of chain and a tractor once a month, but they don't, because another road elsewhere has their attention. After a while, vital roads are simply lost, and communities lose commerce.

    The solution is money, right? If we just send enough aid, every road can be fixed. Still not that simple. Partly because everyone's broke, partly due to the lack of unity, and partly just due to human failure, corruption is rampant. The Western world has a long history of serving the kingdom/colony/country, even when it means taking a bit of harm to oneself. In Africa, the family comes first. If your family wants something, it is the single most important priority. Most of the foreign aid that is sent over disappears into family pockets, and rarely actually contributes to the intended project.

    For example, consider a road-building project. If a manager goes to Africa to build a road, he'll have a hundred men claiming they'll make the best road. Of course they'll outbid each other, but since they've been collaborating beforehand, even the lowest bid is far more expensive than it should be. Once the builder is selected, he has to purchase materials. By amazing coincidence, he has a brother in the next village that has exactly what's needed. The price is high, but the quality is supposedly much better than anything available locally. During construction, there is an inspector that must approve every detail of the project. He'll never travel down the road, so he's willing to allow a few mistakes in exchange for a small bribe. Try fixing the mistakes (whether they actually exist or not), and that's when it's discovered that those high-quality materials weren't so great after all. More money gets spent on new materials, and the old materials mysteriously vanish.

    Surely, with enough money entering Africa, something good is coming out, right? I hate to say it, but again, it's not that simple. There is a heavy emphasis on looking nice, and no emphasis on actually being functional. School children are required to have uniforms, but may not have a pencil or notebook. The school may have a gate, but no walls. Money that could go toward actual improvement is instead spent on showing off how much money a family has.

    Even when a family does try to improve themselves, the culture as a whole is against them. The bribes are always needed, and the harsh environment mandates continual repair.

    The only real solution is for large regions to band together, decide they want to enter the modern world, and campaign to convince their people to improve their ethic. The first thing to go must be the nepotism. Work should be done to benefit the country as a whole, not just the family. Next should be the appearance. Africans must not be afraid to show what they need, and should strive to achieve mediocrity before greatness.

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    1. Re:In Africa, it's not that simple. by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

      The only real solution is for large regions to band together, decide they want to enter the modern world, and campaign to convince their people to improve their ethic. The first thing to go must be the nepotism. Work should be done to benefit the country as a whole, not just the family. Next should be the appearance. Africans must not be afraid to show what they need, and should strive to achieve mediocrity before greatness. Once the example road doesn't need to be inspected for perfection, corruption can be more easily reduced. Finally, with enough money going where it's intended, the infrastructure can improve, and Africa can finally harness its natural resources.

      You complain about the prime allegiance of Africans being to their family.
      Let me tell you something about family in Africa.
      When I was a teenage boy I traveled home from my place of study in Europe and promptly had the return portion of my round trip ticket stolen from me by a fellow passenger on the plane.
      "Naturally" that part of the ticket turned out to be non-refundable, even so it had not been a bargain rate ticket.
      And no, even so I had presented my whole ticket (still paper at that time) during check-in, the airline simply refused to issue me a new return ticket.

      Now we are talking a lot of cash here, because "back in the days" there were nor tourist charters available to that part of Africa.
      And even so my Uncle wasn't poor, he was no millionaire either.
      Yet upon hearing about my troubles, he simply volunteered to buy me a new ticket and wouldn't accept "no" for an answer.

      There were no accusations, no angry words, not even a childing.
      He just picked up the phone, made a few calls, had the money transferred and I didn't even had to go back downtown to the travel office.
      They send us the new ticket by courier.

      Now that is what family does for you in Africa Mr. They save your ass when nobody else will - and they don't even give you one angry look for it.
      You might think that is something to scoff about, but Africans will tell you that this is what they are most proud about in their culture.

      What Africa needs most has nothing to do with any of your suggestions and yet it is as plain as the light of day.
      Africa needs much less interference from western do goodders and much more rule of law internally and externally.

      *Every* time the dreaded United Nations "negotiate" (aka "force") a peace between a corrupt war lord and his victims, yet another signal is send out to all Africans that crime does pay.
      Whenever no-nothings like George Clooney advocate on Capitol Hill for the bombing of Sudan to help "those little, cute black babies over there" Africans only shudder at their ignorance.

      Leave African problems to Africans, stop pumping the place full with weapons and IMF advisers and insist on the equal applications of the rule of law.
      Not every African country needs to be a Democracy (how do you run a Democracy anyways if over 2/3 or a country can't even read what's on the ballot?)

      But what they all need (what *every* country in the world needs) for stable development is accountability.
      That dreaded tendency of those in the West to view any conflict in Africa through the lens of "they are just like little children quarreling with each other" is what let's warlords and corrupt politicians of the hook again and again and again.

      How long did it take for Charles Taylor to finally face justice? Or his henchman Foday Sankoh wo was forced out of jail by the UN, so he could keep murdering again.
      And the countless war lords of the Congo basin, who are still in business to this very day, selling the raw materials openly on the international markets from places they only control through brute force - with no legal mandate what-so-ever.
      How can they even find customers for materials they can make no legal claim of ownership to?

      Why did it take decades until Western Nations finally agreed to combat the blood diamond trade?
      Was a simple small laser marking, invisible to the human eye, really such a big price to pay for a little peace on earth?

      Don't give us money, but give us the rule of law !

      --
      Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
    2. Re:In Africa, it's not that simple. by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying that helping a family member is bad. What's bad is the choice of promoting the family over following economics. If a family member sells a product, but a competitor offers better quality at a lower price, buy from the competitor, especially when foreign aid is paying the bill. Capitalism works. Support quality, and quality will improve.

      Choosing economics over family is also a contributing factor to the public's confidence in a leader. What good is a leader who takes your taxes/aid, and only supports his own family's business with it? Why should the leader's family be granted special privilege over others?

      The equal application of rule of law is the cornerstone of a real democracy. The leaders are chosen from the people, and (ideally) hold no special power beyond what the people grant them. If 2/3rds of the people can't read the issues, fund education. Just before my visit, Ghana held public elections. Party allegiance was more important than any issues, but that's mostly irrelevant at this stage of development. If you want stability, you need a leader that holds the public's confidence, and that depends mainly on being trusted to support all the people, rather than just one small group. Democracy works well for that. What the leaders actually do is often a moot point.

      Regarding the inflammatory statements about various atrocities, what's your point? Do you think it took too long for 197 disparate countries with different views to agree on what to do? Do you think that any country showing signs of difficulty should have their government replaced by the UN immediately? Should the UN interfere in the financial enterprise of an independent entity?

      The UN is not, and should not be, an empire. I don't know anybody who views genocide as "little children quarreling", but I do know many who think people should solve their own problems. I believe the UN generally holds the same position.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  32. *claps* by troll8901 · · Score: 1

    *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* ...

  33. Re:The truth is somewhere in the middle - been the by Weedhopper · · Score: 1

    The good news, though, is that thanks to some development aid partners (like Norway), it's being given development options other than "get as much oil as possible and build your economy around it" (a.k.a. the US-China model). Norway is huge on hydropower, and Uganda has a lot of potential in that area.

    Good luck on good hydro power.

    Never, ever try to mail anything there. I don't know whether it's customs or the postal service that's corrupt, but it's like mailing things into a black hole. I think one or two postcards I sent might have made it through. Even Express Mail doesn't get any respect. If you want to get anything to anyone, it's FedEx/DHL or bust.

    Both are corrupt but customs will give you more trouble. I've had FedEx packages held hostage at customs over ridiculous excuses, same as postal service. The difference between the postal service and FedEx/DHL is that with the latter, once it clears customs, it will actually get to you. Postal service is a crapshoot.

    The goods sold in stores have pretty much been shipped overland from Mombasa (in a barroom, drinking gin *weeps for Warren*). Former UK colony, so they're all UK-spec electrically. In '05 or '06, a clock-radio you'd pay $19 for at WalMart cost $100 due to all that shipping. Thankfully, things have gotten a little better now, but an unlocked iPhone 3G S is still $1200+. Oh, yes, there are iPhones. There's an Apple authorized reseller right downtown in Kampala, although there's an unhealthy lag for them to actually get each new revision of things in-stock.

    Four years ago, my power supply for my Powerbook went bad while I was upcountry. The Kampala Apple guy was happy to sell me a spare for 200USD. It only took a four day round trip to go pick it up.

  34. Re:The truth is somewhere in the middle - been the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    The good news, though, is that thanks to some development aid partners (like Norway), it's being given development options other than "get as much oil as possible and build your economy around it" (a.k.a. the US-China model).

    The bad news, though, is they're intent on pissing away all that foreign aid by passing legislation to kill all homosexuals at the behest of American evangelist fucktards..

  35. Re:The truth is somewhere in the middle - been the by Mr.+Lwanga · · Score: 1

    "...maybe I'll be on flights that are less than 50% missionaries."

    Amen.

  36. latest technology updates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  37. Re:Take it from an African - For the record by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

    Definition of "boorish":
    adjective - like or characteristic of a boor; rude; awkward; ill-mannered

    I think it fits like a fiddle. Even if the name for dutch, land grabbing motherfuckers of the previous centuries was "Boer", they were and still are "boorish" in nature.

    To be honest, I don't give a damn what they call themselves. Given the fact that, after what they did for centuries to the locals in South Africa, the whites are still allowed to keep the lion share of wealth in SA to themselves and that under an ANC government of the 3rd generation, I got no patience for any boorish Boer coming in here and bad mouthing his own, fellow black countrymen with racist slander that could have come straight out of Goebbels vocabulary.

    If blacks would have been committing such crimes against whites for centuries, they'd been exterminated as a whole as soon as whites would have gained the upper hand.
    So what is that musmax moron complaining about again? Ah, yes. That he won't enjoy the soccer world championship as there are too many black guys around.
    Got a problem with all the blacks surrounding you musmax? The cure to that one would be LEAVE AFRICA NOW!

    --
    Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
  38. Re:Shipping to Africa is as safe as wiring your mo by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

    Hey Mr.

    I am from Africa and I wouldn't want to do business online with Nigerians.
    They are notorious for their schemes and even in the rest of West-Africa people view many Nigerians somewhat like Ferengi with dark skin.
    The problem is the Nigerian legal system, which is so clumsy that it effectively blocks prosecution for most online criminals.
    The country is just too huge for its ineffective police force and judiciary.

    Please notice: There are many honest, hard working Nigerians. But the bad apples just have such an easy time that they spoil it for everyone else.

    --
    Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
  39. Re:What were you doing during your 6month in Ghana by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

    I'm not saying that helping a family member is bad. What's bad is the choice of promoting the family over following economics. If a family member sells a product, but a competitor offers better quality at a lower price, buy from the competitor, especially when foreign aid is paying the bill. Capitalism works. Support quality, and quality will improve.

    Reading your reply, I truly, really wonder what u were doing during your 6 month stay in Ghana?
    That time was obviously not spend learning about the local way of life.
    So you say that for a few $ in savings I am supposed to snub a family member who would gladly lay down his life to get me out of trouble?
    Maybe you should spend less time reading Adam Smith and more time walking the streets of the slums and shanty towns of Africa.
    If my very existence depends in my brothers, cousins and Aunties being there for me on a moment's notice, then I would rather consult a witch doctor before I would follow your advise
    Capitalism works you claim?! EVER FOLLOWED THE ECONOMIC NEWS LATELY?
    People complain about the havoc your kind of capitalism has created in the western world. Can you even imagine the devastation it has caused in sub-Saharan Africa?
    Capitalism doesn't work, its just the best non-working form of economics currently available to us - but that still doesn't mean you should even try to enforce the rules of Wall Street and Wal-Mart in the badlands of Africa.

    I've seen Socialism first hand and it works even less than Capitalism. But that still doesn't make Wall Street the savior of the poor and downtrodden.

    By the way, when I travel back home, I will *always* prefer the taxi service one of my Aunties owns.
    Because I know that with her driver at least I won't end up robbed and clubbed to death in a ditch along the road.
    Something that happens quiet frequently to single passengers in taxi cabs - the other reason (besides saving money) why people prefer to share a ride when using a taxi in many parts of African.

    You can call that anything you want, I call it "common sense".

    Choosing economics over family is also a contributing factor to the public's confidence in a leader.

    OK, that does it. IMHO you got NO CLUE about Africa and the Africans.
    Taking care of ones family, or even giving them preference in private purchasing decisions, is not the same as corruption!
    And in Africa *no* government leader will *ever* win the respect of his people, if he/she does not respect family first.

    The equal application of rule of law is the cornerstone of a real democracy.

    WRONG> One (wo)man one vote is the cornerstone of Democracy.
    The ancient Greeks, who invented Democracy, also had slaves and the British who developed the Western Style Democracy people in the West use as a template today, also have a Monarchy to this very day, where Lords and Nobles are given rights and privileges not offered to anyone else within the realm.

    On the other hand, Prussia's Frederick the Great is called "great" amongst historians, because he insisted in the equal application of the rule of law within his domain.
    Even in matters affecting the king himself.

    You should stop trying to apply dry text book "knowledge" to real life places like Africa and listen to what the Africans tell you.
    What the people of Africa (speaking mostly of "my part" of Africa here, as different peoples have different preferences) want from a leader is stabillity and self-restraint.

    They don't want a government that changes all the time, but they don't want a tyrannical despot you just can't get rid of either.
    Mr. people who are not part of the elites in Africa are STARVING, each and every day.
    Education is the answer you claim? Geez, have you ever visited an African school?
    A place where most teachers are so poor that they threaten to beat up the children if they don't bring them extra money.

    A night watchman has to feed his enti

    --
    Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
  40. Re:What were you doing during your 6month in Ghana by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

    Sorry for my lousy spelling, but its late and to be honest, right now I don't give a damn ;-)

    --
    Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
  41. Only an Idiot thinks that Holland is in Africa! by TimurLeng · · Score: 1

    I was asking about what AFRICAN windup clock radio company could benefit from the suggested boycott of cheaper and better overseas products by African customers.
    If you got difficulties comprehending the concept, then go and finish grade school before replying.

    There is no African consumer goods industry, much less an African car or computer industry.
    So the entire suggestion is just bullocks and bullshit!

    --
    Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
    1. Re:Only an Idiot thinks that Holland is in Africa! by MightyDrunken · · Score: 1

      Isn't that SmallFurryCreature's point? Africa lacks the industrial base which is how Europe, North America and Asia became industrialised and leading world economies. There isn't a African windup clock because the competition from China would prevent a windup clock radio industry from ever starting up (as SmallFurryCreature said in his post).

      The incumbent companies have the advantages, the capitol, the infrastructure and the expertise to under cut or out do most start-ups. The new entrant to a market needs some edge over its competitors but how can a poor country beat a cheap highly competitive rival like China? The usual answer is for the country wishing to start a new industry is ignore the patents and other IP protections. Copy a product and erect trade barriers to enable their new industry to gain a foothold.

  42. Re:What were you doing during your 6month in Ghana by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

    Primarily, I was volunteering in a primary school. I was also getting robbed, harassed, and poisoned. I saw the culture, and I still stand by my earlier statements.

    Note: For clarity, assume all references to 'man' include women, children, etc. I prefer clarity to absolute political correctness.

    Because I know that with her driver at least I won't end up robbed and clubbed to death in a ditch along the road.

    That's a measurement of quality. Choosing her cab because of the driver's reputation is a valid decision. What isn't valid would be to choose her cab because she's family, even though you know they kill and rob others. That's nepotism.

    Capitalism doesn't work, its just the best non-working form of economics currently available to us

    That's pretty close to working. The alternatives are worse. Yes, extreme capitalism (Wal-mart, oil companies, etc) cause some local problems, but you must also consider the benefit of having large companies with lots of money available. As an example, consider the Coca-cola bottling plant in (Accra or Kumasi... I don't recall offhand) Ghana. It was founded from an American company, with American money, and now it provides stable jobs, with above-average pay.

    Taking care of ones family, or even giving them preference in private purchasing decisions, is not the same as corruption!

    The key word there is "private". I don't care where the town's leader buys his bread. I don't care if the town leader gives his personal money to a friend who needs it. I care about who the town leader pays with government (or aid) money. The public money should go to whoever best serves the public, not whoever is the closest kin to the leader. I'm not suggesting family should be abandoned.

    *no* government leader will *ever* win the respect of his people, if he/she does not respect family first.

    If the town leader gives his personal money to a friend who needs it, I'd vote for him in the next election. Respect and nepotism are very different. A leader who shows he will take care of all his followers deserves to be in charge. A leader who shows that only his close friends will benefit has no place as a leader.

    Note that my original comment mentioned a "real democracy", referring to the ideal concept of a democratic republic. To my knowledge, there is no nation which actually implements an ideal democracy. The USA is close, but still screwed up. An ideal democracy would require more processing than has been previously feasible.

    One (wo)man one vote is the cornerstone of Democracy.

    Or in other words, "No man is worth any more than any other man." Taking this concept further leads us to "No man has power above any other", which implies "No man is exempt to the laws that govern any other." That's the logic that's been followed over the past 200 years in the USA to grant women the right to vote, abolish slavery, and outlaw discrimination.

    With only an equality of votes, you end up with a state where the ruler declares elections be repeated until he wins.

    What the people of Africa ... want from a leader is stabillity and self-restraint.

    Like I said earlier, democracy works well for that. If you can get the democracy working to the point where power is turned over without significant trouble, you can be sure that the government will change at a consistent rate. Likewise, a leader who wants to be reelected can't be a tyrant. This all depends on having a democracy in place where elections work.

    Education is the answer you claim? Geez, have you ever visited an African school?

    Yes. I saw starving children being beaten almost daily for six months. Education is still the best answer. Note that I say 'education', not 'attending a place named a school'. The buildings where adults beat chil

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  43. Immigration and growth by symbolset · · Score: 1

    The times when our borders were open were also the times when we experienced the greatest growth, the most innovation, the best reputation in the world.

    Assimilate the immigrants? Hell, they assimilated us. By all reckoning, we're better for it.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.