Arizona "Papers, Please" Law May Hit Tech Workers

dcblogs writes "H-1B workers and foreign students may think twice about attending school or working in Arizona as a result of the state's new immigration law. If a police officer has a 'reasonable suspicion' about the immigration status of someone, the officer may ask to see proof of legal status. Federal immigration law requires all non-US citizens, including H-1B workers, to carry documentation, but 'no state until Arizona has made it a crime to not have that paperwork on your person,' said immigration lawyer Sarah Hawk. It means that an H-1B holder risks detention every time they make a 7-11 run if they don't have their papers, or if their paperwork is out of date because US immigration authorities are behind in processing (which condition does not make them illegal). The potential tech backlash over the law may have begun yesterday with a call by San Francisco City Atty. Dennis Herrera 'to adopt and implement a sweeping boycott of the State of Arizona and Arizona-based businesses.'"

Comments

grand experiemnt

[fermion]

Arizona is embarking on a grand experiment, and as a free state it should be allowed to so do. We have heard the hypothesis that undocumented persons cause so much social and financial harm that any measure to thwart such persons from entering the state. Some would go as far as saying that even documented foreigners should be extremely limited as they take our jobs.

I fully support Arizona in this experiment. I suspect the reason they have done this is because, unlike other border states like Texas and New Mexico( all three of which showed incredible job growth pre-2009), Arizona now has the county with the highest percentage job loss in the country. I am sure scaring foreign visitors to Texas and New Mexico, instead of Arizona, to shop at the stores, pay sales tax, eat at the restaurants, and even take helicopter rides from the airport to our shopping malls, will help their economy greatly. The kids may even go to university and settle down to engineering jobs that pay huge amounts of payroll and income tax. So far, at least in Texas, it has worked well.

But that is fine. If Arizona thinks that foreign money has negative value due to documentation or the blight of having people looking for work instead of playing video games or skin color(arizona is the only of the three states that is majority white non-hispanic) or whatever, so be it. We will see if they can achieve economic growth in an isolationist environment. Given that they have one of the highest federal support rate in the country, I doubt it.

I don't see the problem.

[blind biker]

And I live in a pretty laid-back country, too (Finland). Arizona is just trying to enforce the existing law. That is not a tragedy. It's a tragedy if it's done inconsistently.

Japan does this already.

[srothroc]

Japan does this already; people are required to carry their foreigner ID cards or passports while they're in the country. Failure to be able to present them can lead to a visit to the police station or jail. Some areas have lots of people who report being checked for absolutely no apparent reason at all; foreigners in other areas have never experienced this.

Honestly, it doesn't bother me. For me, having my wallet or ID with me when I go out is just common sense... not some kind of panty-twisting injustice that I have to carry like a ball-and-chain. It's just common sense.

So I don't see what the big deal is. Now, on the other hand, if people are just stopped randomly on the basis of their appearance and not because of anything in particular they were doing, then yes, that would bother me. That bothers me in Japan, too. But having to carry an ID? Not a big deal -- you should be doing it already.

That's the real problem

[Sycraft-fu]

The bill doesn't require citizens to carry documents, it can't, that'd be illegal. So you have the problem that more or less you'd have to take someone at their word. Now while you may argue that smart enforcement of it could be useful, that isn't what will happen. What will happen is Arizona is going to get on the losing end of a federal civil rights lawsuit:

A racist cop (because there are some police that are racists, just like any other segment of the population) is going to decide that someone is brown enough that they must be an immigrant and has done something allegedly suspicious demand their papers. Said person, who is a citizen, will tell them to fuck off. They arrest him. Turns out, like many people, he doesn't have ready access to documents to prove his citizenship so he's held in jail for some time. Citizenship is established, he goes free. He files suit against Arizona for violating his rights, since citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship. Arizona loses money they really do not have.

That is a real problem here.

Re:What about the presumption of innocence?

[Hooya]

Here's an interesting story for you:

Some fifteen years ago, I was one of the three "foreign" students in our dorm. I'm brown. The other was Hispanic. Our dorm was more nerdy than most. More social than nerdy really. Most of us hung out in the lounge, played piano, etc.. But for most of the year, there was a guessing game going on as to who the third foreigner was. No one could figure it out. Towards the end of the year, it came to light that it was this girl - who was hanging out with us ALL THIS TIME when we were trying to guess who it was. Now, the ONLY difference between me and this girl (apart from the anatomical differences between a dude and a dudette) was that I'm brown and she was nordic. Neither of us had an accent or other tell-tale signs of 'foreign-ness'. Yet, people pegged me as a foreigner without blinking. No one - and I mean no one - guessed her.

I'm now a citizen. I would imagine by now she is too. If both of us are driving down a highway in Arizona guess who will be stopped? Guess who has to carry documentation on his/her person at all times. "Papriska, please?" (think Red-October)

Fine. If Arizona is just enforcing the fed law, tell me how they can enforce it EQUALLY and I mean non-racially. Would they ever stop this girl and ask for her papers? Would they ever stop me and ask me for mine? On what basis? If your answer is anything other than the perma-tan-age of my epidermis ... The point of the above anecdote is that people start out with the assumption that I'm a foreigner (btw, my son isn't. but he isn't going to fare much better.) Yet no one "sees" other foreigners just like me if they don't look quite like me.

I know it's a bunch of hypotheticals (would they? who knows). But the point is that as a minority I already have to tread carefully. In AZs case, I have to not only avoid drawing suspicion, I have to carry docs - just in case I get pulled over. Midnight run to taco bell? Umm... where's the passport honey? Fuck that noise. And fuck AZ. Hide behind the justification of "it's the law" all you want. All kinds of things have been "the law" at some point or another. Don't mean it's right.

Re:What about the presumption of innocence?

[sldghmr]

I live in Arizona. I see your perspective and experience; so here is mine.

I've lost one vehicle to theft; found weeks later with an illegal alien (from Mexico) behind the wheel. All removable components removed. It was paid off prior and insurance did not cover full price to get a new one though they did pay a lot. But they probably raised everyone who pays insurance a little to cover it so no worries to the illegal immigrants.

I've been hit twice in hit and runs; luckily I was able to follow them and get police to their location. First time, the police gave them a ticket, told me they were not legal (from Mexico) and to just deal with my insurance. When I asked why they weren't being detained to deport it was due to the city of Phoenix police not being allowed to enforce immigration (this was around '02). Second time, they were detained by the sheriff dept which is all I know, and again it was my insurance that had to pay the tab (see the trend here) each time with me paying deductibles and 100% of aftermarket equip.

My son was in an accident and his foot was sliced open to the bone. I carried him in to the ER that evening and it was packed wall to wall, no room to stand. We checked in at the desk and then we were asked to step outside and wait because it was safer outside. You see the ER was packed with illegal immigrants who did not have insurance and were using it as a clinic to treat the flu, common colds, strep throat... stuff you take to a regular Dr. So the facilities tax payers have contributed to so its there in the event of an emergency is over-run. A nurse came outside after a half hour and walked us around to a side door where they finally treated my sons foot.

For states that are not on the border, immigration may not seem like it's a bad problem but for states that are on the border its a huge problem. It's expensive and though activists will tell you otherwise it's a big impact on crime.

A few points you should understand since you want to be a citizen of the US.
- Illegal immigrants do not have a right to be here. That's why they call it 'illegal'.
- It's not the burden of the US for an immigrant to gain citizenship; it's the immigrants burden!
- This country is losing money fast and illegal immigration costs more each year than the war effort overseas.
- Many of us already citizens have fought for and killed for this country, possibly close to you right now; it is NOT a good idea to tell us to get fucked.

I congratulate you for taking the high road and doing whatever it takes to get your citizenship. You seem to be jumping through the hoops and paying for it. It's not easy to be an American is it? It's damned expensive and it doesn't stop when you get the paper either. Maybe you can move to Arizona and help us pay for the illegal immigrants that flood across the border. That would be great! We need all the help we can get.

Could you imagine living in a state where you have to pass a state law just to make state law enforcement enforce federal laws already in place? Is that not the strangest concept? Honestly I never thought it would pass, the opposition for it is very large. Unfortunately, the lower ranks of law enforcement will probably find a way to abuse it. I hope not though, I sincerely hope that its put to good use and impacts legal citizens and legal immigrants as little as possible.

Re:What about the presumption of innocence?

[lena_10326]

They CANNOT walk up to a random person on the street and check their immigration status.

Right. Tell that to these people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7F49dUaZMw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMDW4Fszj2U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQLFITnwgDI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmPi2GbbUes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udf1tY3Fl2U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frL6rRbGAdw

However, for example in case of traffic violation or something like that they can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc Fast forward to about 3/4's through. An experienced cop admitting that when he followed a car long enough he could make a legal stop because at some point everyone makes a mistake. (I presume feeling nervous that a cop has been following you the last 8 blocks also doesn't help one's situation.)

Re:What about the presumption of innocence?

[Lakitu]

Unfortunately, the lower ranks of law enforcement will probably find a way to abuse it. I hope not though, I sincerely hope that its put to good use and impacts legal citizens and legal immigrants as little as possible.

This is the problem with the law. Everyone gets caught up talking about illegal immigrants, but that's not the issue -- if there were a way to deal with illegal immigration without it affecting actual citizens quite so much, it would be done, and that would be that.

When you're entrusting police officers with powers that you "sincerely hope" will not be abused, you are throwing away the protections of citizenship and removing the burdens we have placed upon government to ensure that we have those protections.

This law won't "probably" be abused, it WILL be abused, and it will not only target illegal immigrants. If this law actually comes into effect, then every single person in the state should be carrying every kind of identification they have with them at all times, especially if they are of latino or hispanic heritage. You can be a perfectly legit US citizen and get pulled over for speeding and have to deal with the police hassling you because they don't like you. You may think it unlikely, but "sincere hope" isn't enough to ordain the rule of law. You may be white as can be, but if a cop dislikes you, sees your name McPatrick after pulling you over for a minor traffic violation, he could walk his way down the line of questioning to "so you just moved here from Ireland illegaly, eh son?"

The reason illegal immigration is so hard to deal with is because the USA guarantees protections of its citizens. You can deal with illegal immigration easily, but to do so means giving up those protections!

The goddamn president of the country can barely present enough proof to satisfy millions of people, many of whom serve in the military or on police forces -- how do you expect a legal US citizen of Mexican descent to do so? This law will not fix the problems you have just complained about, and it will provide legal protections to cops who get self-righteous enough to feel like harassing just about anyone they choose. It's a travesty, and even lending it a scent of legitimacy, let alone speaking out in favor of it, does more harm to this country than any amount of "fighting for and killing" for it could ever achieve. Get off your high horse and stop pretending that it's not so bad since it probably won't affect you. It WILL affect US citizens, and you are just throwing them to the wind with your support of the legislation, no matter how tepid it may be.

It's a travesty that so many people can seemingly support even the concept of this legislation, let alone an actual state government actually coming so close to putting it into effect. Anyone who supports this law, including you, should be ashamed of themselves.