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Australian Government Delays Internet Filter Legislation

An anonymous reader writes "It seems the Australian federal government is being forced to delay the introduction of its proposed and much-hated, much-maligned Internet filter. It will not be introduced in the next two sittings of parliament, which realistically delays it until after the next election. News on withdrawing the filter, which was a promise from the previous election, has disappointed lobbying groups such as the Australian Christian Lobby."

69 of 255 comments (clear)

  1. Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Australian Christian Lobby can go fuck themselves sideways with a 40-foot barge pole. Fucking morons.

    1. Re:Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 5, Funny

      The Australian Christian Lobby can go fuck themselves sideways with a 40-foot barge pole.

      I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but I believe they've already banned that.

      Fucking morons.

      Ooh, that one too. Sorry, but thanks for understanding.

    2. Re:Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 5, Funny

      Fucking morons.

      Ooh, that one too. Sorry, but thanks for understanding.

      Actually I thought that was how we got into this situation.

    3. Re:Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by Illogical+Spock · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A brazilian writer told once that the problem with humanity started when stupid people realized they were the majority...

      --
      --- Illogical Spock
    4. Re:Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by the_raptor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Speaking as a Christian, Lobby groups can go fuck themselves. It is ludicrous that any tiny minority that is good at fund raising, or has deep corporate pockets, can be allowed to go around parliament and have private "chats" with legislators. The way people should influence their representatives is via letters and local meetings (and the representatives should be required to keep office hours in the non-sitting season that allows workers to visit them).

      Groups like the ACL don't even represent most Christians just a tiny vocal minority.

      What is likely to happen here is that Rudd and Conroy will pull a Howard and pass the legislation once returned to power because they now have a "mandate". Honestly we should bring back the Greek/Roman practise and try elected officials once they have left office.

      --

      ========
      CINC, 4th Penguin Legion
    5. Re:Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by crafty.munchkin · · Score: 2, Informative

      err... Conroy is a member of the Labor party and does not hold the balance of power... you might be thinking of Senator Fielding, from the Family First party.

      --
      ... wait, what?
    6. Re:Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by DavidRawling · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not quite.

      Nick Xenophon and Steve Fielding are the two useless crackpot lunatics in the Senate. Fielding has the added bonus of being a serial god-botherer (oops, I mean Family First party member). Xenophon is an independent, so likely doesn't even have anyone (not even imaginary) to help him identify when he is being a tosser.

      Conroy is the whackjob pushing the filter to satisfy the other two dickheads and get government policy through the Senate.

    7. Re:Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by BrokenHalo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Like they say, politicians are like nappies (diapers): they should be changed frequently, for the same reason.

    8. Re:Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by w0mprat · · Score: 4, Funny

      I wouldn't be so kind. About the filter that has already been installed in my country I would tell them to << CONTENT BLOCKED: Detection flags: Criticism_of_authority;free_speech;animals_sexual_acts;> >

      --
      After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    9. Re:Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by Ralish · · Score: 2, Informative

      Um, Xenophon is against the filter, and has publicly stated this several times. I don't agree with everything he says by a long shot, but he's definitely not a crackpot like Steve Fielding or Tony Abbott. Further, independents can often be a good thing, primarily because they don't toe the party line and are more likely to vote based on their personal beliefs than what will get them a promotion to the front bench. I'd rather politicians who vote for what they believe in (even if I disagree) than vote for what earns them a larger salary or a nicer job. I'd say his electorate and who they vote for is a fair indication of whether he is being a tosser. Considering how difficult it is to get elected as an independent, without the massive financial and human resources you'd have at your disposal as a member of one of the major parties, I'd suggest he by definition has to be quite in tune with them. You might want to check the actual policies and standpoints of members of parliament before unleashing abuse on them.

      A recent interview with Xenophon: Q&A: Xenophon on ISPs, Telstra and the cloud.

    10. Re:Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by Nok · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Rudd Labor government is dumping every poicy that it can in the lead up to this year's election. Left right and centre. It has also dumped its Emissions Trading Policy.

      So cowardly! It won't standup for anything and it spineless.

    11. Re:Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by rjames13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you are a Christian and oppose to this maybe you should apologize and then fight it. That or leave the religion.

      That doesn't make any sense, the filter is not mandated by any Christian doctrine or authority. I understand the apologise bit because our Government apologised to the Indigenous people, but the problem is that although I support such an apology there is no reason for me personally to apologise since I personally did nothing wrong. Consider a Muslim who lives in New York, should he apologise for the WTC attacks just because they are of the same faith? If you don't support someone's actions who has similar beliefs as you, you don't need to apologise for their actions.

      Please note the difference between similar beliefs and the same beliefs.

    12. Re:Won't somebody please think of the children!?!? by David+Gerard · · Score: 2, Funny

      The Australian Senate is elected by proportional representation per state. Senator Fielding represents those constituents, otherwise discriminated against, who remain climate change sceptics, evolution sceptics, ten-finger sceptics, outbreeding sceptics and walking upright sceptics.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
  2. Promises, Promises by double07 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    With the election looming and the popularity of the Labor party taking a dive the Government is dumping all sorts of unpopular policies including their much touted Emissions Trading Scheme, the disastrous Insulation Scheme and of course this ridiculous Internet filter. Of course if Australia votes them in again, they'll say they have a mandate for this filter but the opposition is pretty much a joke. *Sigh*

    1. Re:Promises, Promises by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sorry dude, it won't work.

      I can promise you that no-one keeps track of what is written on ballot papers -- all the AEC staff and party scrutineers care about are whether a ballot paper is formal or not and the way the vote is cast.

      (I speak from extensive election night experience)

    2. Re:Promises, Promises by JuzzFunky · · Score: 2, Informative

      Agreed. I've counted votes. Writing on the ballot papers is not only useless, it increases the risk of your ballot paper being declared invalid.
      If you feel strongly about this, or any other political issue then you might want to watch this TED talk by Omar Ahmad on Political Change with Pen and Paper.
      He talks about the best way to get your voice heard by politicians, which turns out to be a hand written letter once a month.

      --
      Unexpect the expected!
    3. Re:Promises, Promises by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      your forgetting the failed "education revolution", where the taxer payer was footing bills of 1.5 mil for demountable dongers worth 100k. your also forgetting the health system overhaul that was supposed to take place in the first 12 months which is still not happening (thankfully, because the current plan is a disaster).

      and lets not forget the explosion in boat people heading for australia, which the Rudd government has failed to do anything about beside let a bunch of them escape.

      this is what happens when you get a new generation of voters i guess. they forget the lessons of past labor governments and get all caught up in this change the world bullshit.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    4. Re:Promises, Promises by timbo234 · · Score: 3, Informative

      You could always vote for the Australian Sex party. They're new for this election and actually have some pretty sensible policies revolving around civil liberties, freedom of speech and keeping religious fundamentalism out of Australian politics.

      --
      Pre-canned Evolution Links for all those Slashdot holy wars.
  3. Looking slightly dangerous for Rudd by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The opposition Liberal Party are finally getting their act together and the Labour Government doesn't want to feed them any issues to debate, so filtering is on hold.

    1. Re:Looking slightly dangerous for Rudd by mjwx · · Score: 4, Informative

      The opposition Liberal Party are finally getting their act together and the Labour Government doesn't want to feed them any issues to debate, so filtering is on hold.

      Frankly the Coalition scare me more then Conroy. Both the leader of the Liberals and the Nationals are ultra conservatives (not in the good way, they are religious nutbars) so voting them in would be just as bad, probably worse then another 3 years of Rudd. Personally my vote is going to a minor party (likely the greens) who, if given enough power can keep out bad legislation, just like the last filter vote.

      Also Rudd and Conroy are getting a lot of heat from the Labor back bench, even Kate Lundy has openly questioned the filter after towing the party line and defending it. The prospect of Rudd facing revolt from his own party this close to an election is not a good one.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    2. Re:Looking slightly dangerous for Rudd by mjwx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      See, I voted for Labor at the last Federal Election, and I want to like them, I really do. But it's the stupid stuff like this that means I'm going to vote for the Greens, which is something I swore I'd never do.

      The greens are turning out to be less environmentalists and more insane policy blockers of late which is kind of scary. As for the environment, Rudd should never have put Garrett there, nothing against the guy but he was definitely not qualified, minister for the environment should be occupied but someone with an understanding of chemistry or biology (OK, wishful thinking).

      Personally I think we didn't really have a choice with Rudd, if Howard had of been permitted to keep Work Choices things would have been a lot worse for the average worker in the GFC, fairness test or not, wages would have fallen through the floor and mass lay offs would be the norm.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    3. Re:Looking slightly dangerous for Rudd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's incorrect, never have they said they wanted a stricter filter (Even their actions whilst in government when they implemented a host based filtering solution say the opposite), their position is that no filter is going to be effective enough thus the idea is flawed and wants to focus on law enforcement and education programs. I've actually spoken with Stephen Conroy in Feburary about this issue and discussed the technical feasibility. Unfortunately it actually may be possible to do network based filtering without dramatically impacting network performance, though he does not have any plans to do a proper cost-benefit analysis and when I asked him why he simply went on about the impact seeing RC material can have on a child. For him he is only concerned with classification consistency across different mediums and has automatically assumed this solution will be effective disregarding ACMA's own advice saying that education is a more effective solution.

      Disclaimer: I'm a Liberal Party Member

    4. Re:Looking slightly dangerous for Rudd by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Ha! do you know what the liberal/national filtering scheme was??? free filtering software. cheap and about as reliable as a national filter without the lack of an opt out.

      another 3 years of Rudd will be much MUCH worse then just about anything. the greens in government would be worse, because an environmental single issue party simply isn't capable of running a resource based economy. thankfully greens will only ever be a senate-take-one-seat-and-milk-it party.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    5. Re:Looking slightly dangerous for Rudd by dropbearsrus · · Score: 3, Informative

      I disagree. Abbott already has a proven record of forcing it down people's throats.

      Unfortunately Abbott is not on his own in this regard, I believe this may be something that Abbott and Rudd actually have in common.

      For example, the ridiculous taxpayer-funded school chaplaincy program introduced under Howard, has been continued with additional funding under Rudd.
      http://www.deewr.gov.au/Schooling/NationalSchoolChaplaincyProgram/Pages/home.aspx

      I don't see how my taxes should be paying for someone to evangelise at what is meant to be a secular school. If they wanted a school counselling program with actual psychologists, I'd be all for that. And don't get me started on 'religious education' at secular schools...

      Also while we're talking lobbies, I'll point out an alternative: http://australiansecularlobby.com/

    6. Re:Looking slightly dangerous for Rudd by twostix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We had twelve years of rule by the "ultra" conservatives until three years ago, of which time that "hyper religous nutbar" as you describe him (a boringly mainstream catholic in reality, do you describe the Prime Minister or NSW premier in the same manner given that they both hold the same position on most moral issues and attend church every Sunday as well?) was a senior minister and one of John Howards closest advisors. Under that "ultra" conservative government the closest we ever got to a mandatory filter was a law requiring ISPs to offer Net Nanny as a free download to their customers. Under the oh-so scary "ultra conservative" ideal that it's wrong for the government to force censorship on the electorate and that these decisions are best handled by parents in the privacy of their family homes (private homes - another scary "ultra conservative" ideal).

      Then after just one year of labor rule we were assaulted by all manner of authoritarian legislation and yet somehow, bizarrely in your world it's the "ultra conservatives" who didn't ever implement such legislation even when they controlled two branches of government who "scare" you.

      And I hate to tell you this, but if the "ultra conservatives" scare you, why not the Greens? They have *plenty* of their own "scary" authoritarian ideals.

      You really are a product of the pop media aren't you?

    7. Re:Looking slightly dangerous for Rudd by Bruce+McBruce · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd like to agree with you on the notion of trying to vote in the Greens, but that just wouldn't happen.

      I'd be more inclined to vote Liberal on the grounds that they've historically been far more concerned with staying in power and they've done that by keeping the people happy enough. Labor went in with some good ideas and a far superior approach to the election... they've just made some really awful decisions.

      Best outcome I could see would be Labor getting the House of Representatives majority, then Labor and the Coalition around tied for reps in the Senate so the Greens and other independent reps would have a more important say. Labor's ideaology is generally more progressive, but the Libs have a rather useful tendency to sit back and wait for what the Nation has to say about it instead of acting like bullheaded idiots and pushing seriously bad legislation.

    8. Re:Looking slightly dangerous for Rudd by mjwx · · Score: 2, Informative

      a! do you know what the liberal/national filtering scheme was???

      Ha, and thus far the only party to actually implement their scheme are who... But I have to ask you, do you know why Rudd was elected in the first place.

      Work Choices.

      It sounds like you are trying to water down a party that has been taken over by extremists and was not that moderate to begin with.

      another 3 years of Rudd will be much MUCH worse then just about anything

      If Rudd didn't get into power things would have been very different during the GFC. With Work Choices in effect wages for every profession would have dropped through the floor, mass layoffs would have been commonplace and working hours increased. We are extremely fortunate that Rudd repealed Work Choices before the GFC actually hit.

      Contrary to popular belief, the last three years under Rudd have not been a total disaster, our national debt is not spiralling out of control, in fact we are one of the few nations to come out of the GFC. Debt is at far less then 10% of our GDP, right now I have more cash in the bank then is required to pay my share of the national debt (A$9,050, BTW, my state of WA is in the black) and this is during a global recession. To say the last three years has been bad is bullshit, we are the only advanced (first world) economy that is showing positive growth and we still have all our rights as workers.

      Also Howard was not a religious leader, he got through on his economic credentials (well earned, I insist on being fair, Howards economic policies were very good whilst education and IR suffered horribly) whilst Abbott is appointing his church buddies to the shadow cabinet. The Nationals at the moment are even more extreme then the Liberals. Abbott is extremely religious and I can not rely on him to be able to make decisions without this influencing them.

      the greens in government would be worse

      Here's where you go horribly wrong. right now Labor cant do anything without the Greens and independents, I want to keep it that way. Green preferential vote goes towards Labor so Labor remains in power whilst being reliant on the Green party who has openly opposed Labors more insane policies this term such as the filter and ETS. My interest is in keeping a minor party in a position of power as they are actually afraid of being voted out. My preference is two or three minor parties but I'd also like a pony.

      Now voting Liberal or National just delivers the power directly into Abbott's hands as the Nationals will just tow the Liberal line. Abbot will get senate majority and rule by edict in the same way that Howard put the incredibly unpopular Work Choices legislation in. I don't care who is leader in so much as long as the disruptive balance of power in the senate is maintained and no-one can implement insane policies like Clean Feed or Work Choices without serious opposition.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    9. Re:Looking slightly dangerous for Rudd by mjwx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What? How will wage decreases lead to increased unemployment!

      lower wages = more hours worked in order to pay bills. This means higher unemployment as a side effect as companies would be getting more work for less money, with no new work incoming there is no need to retain unnecessary workers.

      Then you should know that the federal government had less to do with last year's growth, than China did.

      Apart from managing to restart foreign investment in mining, which is most of our economy. Labor kickstarted the economy with investment into government infrastructure after the GFC. This alone got the economy restarted quickly. Many companies survived on this money when their other clients implemented spending freezes, now that this is waning we are in a better position then if those companies died and we have new infrastructure to boot. Certainly in Perth when all the mining giants stopped spending and cancelled new developments, all many small firms had were government contracts.

      Things could have been a lot worse, Rudd's economic policies were pretty much the same as Howards with the exception that Rudd is building infrastructure that was sorely neglected under Howard (school's and hospitals). This is an investment as we need to keep our workforce from being outsourced and the best way to do this is to provide companies with a superior product (better educated workforce). I disagree with the Stimulus package ($900 a piece) but that is a small amount of what was borrowed and education needed a boost when I left school 10 years ago.

      Rudd may not have been a perfect government but given the fact we've stayed well and truly afloat you cant say they were terrible. But neither side should be given an absolute rule IMHO.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  4. GOOD! by BluRBD!E · · Score: 5, Insightful

    With any luck we can get this farcical idea shot down somehow before then... I just wish every day Joe and Jane understood the slippery slope that is censorship. Unfortunately the government lackeys and christian rights groups continue to scream "CHILDREN!!!" and "PEDOPHILIA!!!!" and no real logic ever comes into play. Oh well, I already have a remote box in Europe anyway... this won't effect me. I just feel bad for the technical illiterate folk who suffer. I wish it was OPT-IN.

    1. Re:GOOD! by Techman83 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I wouldn't tolerate Opt-out, nor opt-in, it's only a policy change away from being Mandatory. What the Government should be doing is starting a "Family Friendly" ISP program. Special logos, resources for parents etc. Unfortunately politics isn't about common sense, it's all about being seen to be doing something.

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
      Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
  5. Not actually an election promise by aaron552 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Of course, the "election promise" wasn't actually mandatory. It required ISPs to offer a "clean feed" to their customers. The ACL are a bunch of moralizing extremists and shouldn't be given any more notice than the guys who believe George Bush is a space alien.

    --
    I had a sig once. It was lost in the great storm of '09.
    1. Re:Not actually an election promise by clockwise_music · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I wonder if this decision was related to the protest that had been organised?

      http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=100265633350951

      Seems like a bit of a co-incidence.. especially because this is the second time it has happened. Last time there was a protest organised about shutting down the Tote due to insane liquor licensing - but the protest was a waste of time as a decision had already been made.

      I guess politically it's a lot less damaging if they stop the protest from happening.

      But maybe they've started doing next years budget and realised just how expensive this filtering nonsense will be.. and that they can safely cut it because no-one wants it. They can save face by saying "it's just been delayed".

    2. Re:Not actually an election promise by Cryacin · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, that's just what they want you to believe.

      He's really just a shaved monkey. ^1

      [1] http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushmonkey3.htm
      [Citation provided]

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
  6. Some obvious observations by brendan.hill · · Score: 3, Interesting

    1) Stephen Conroy is spot on when he says the internet shouldn't be treated any different to any other forms of media. It isn't a magical beast, it's just another form of media (albeit more accessible and chaotic).

    So there's nothing fundamentally wrong with filtering it. I mean hell, it's already illegal to *host* this sort of content in Australia.

    2) It might be abused, or it filter stuff you disagree with.

    I disagree with filtering material on euthanasia. However this isn't an objection against the filter itself (I mean, I agree with filtering stuff on graffiti or terrorist), but simply against the choice of application.

    3) The reason it will fail is exactly the reason it will work.

    It will fail miserably because anyone can circumnavigate it.

    But this is exactly what makes it hard to abuse. With oddly-moralized hackers up in arms, you can bet they'll seize on any abuses of the filter and plaster them embarresingly over the internet. So the government has a strong incentive to stick within their declared uses of the filter.

    So the worst objection to the filter is simply that it could mostly be a waste of time... that said, it will evolve and change and may prove useful.

    1. Re:Some obvious observations by oztiks · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's true, but it shouldn't be about the content, it should be about toning the internet down so we have far less crime on the internet. It was never looked that way and the "pr0n" card was played.

      Mess with peoples porn expect failure (which it has) but talk about the real issues like china and some of the nasty stuff that's happening there at the moment.

      I urge you to watch this, story on the Australian News. It is 40mins long, but trust me when you get into the thick of the story you'll love it.

      http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/special_eds/20100419/cyber/

      I recon the filter was being pushed because this shit started showing its ugly face here in Australia, just the pollie who was trying to pull it off took the wrong path and pissed everyone off in the process.

    2. Re:Some obvious observations by bane2571 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you forget number 4

      4)It will cost a fuckton of money which will ultimately be passed on to the voting customers that already pay a fuckton of money for sub-par internet.

    3. Re:Some obvious observations by c0lo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) Stephen Conroy is spot on when he says the internet shouldn't be treated any different to any other forms of media. It isn't a magical beast, it's just another form of media (albeit more accessible and chaotic).

      So there's nothing fundamentally wrong with filtering it. I mean hell, it's already illegal to *host* this sort of content in Australia.

      Nope, Internet is not quite like other media, at the extent that all the other media require a physical support for the information. Thus, any censorship of other media will result in somebody, not affiliated with the government, in Australia knowing about the censorship: in extreme, the censorship of that item may be made public and, possibly, debated if necessary.
      By contrast, Conroy's scheme assumes censoring the Internet without anyone's knowledge (at least no one affiliated with the gov, or law enforcement), letting you defenseless in the matter of exercising your control over the power. Not that the power one simply citizen would be quite remarkable, but if you give it away - so small as it would be - you remain with what?

      The above letting aside that I take pride of being able to take care of what I'm doing or suffer the consequences. I don't need my own mother to take care anymore of my actions, why should I trust the government to do nanny me???

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    4. Re:Some obvious observations by SQL+Error · · Score: 5, Insightful

      1. The filter is not restricted to illegal material - RC material is not ilelgal in itself, no matter how many times Senator Conroy repeats the line "including material such as child pornography".

      2. It is certain to be abused. Even before the filter has been created, the blacklist is intrinsically abusive in its abandonment of due process and legal recourse.

      3. Ineffective laws are bad laws. If everyone breaks the law, everyone is a criminal. Is that what you want?

      The filter is an abomination of human rights. Everyone should be opposed to it. If you're not, you're wrong.

    5. Re:Some obvious observations by TwistedPants · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This angers me significantly: this is not a debate about the theory of filtering.

      This is a tooth and nail fight against a specific proposal put forward by the current government.

      Every variation of the filtering plan that has been put forward in the media has been savaged by opponents, who are entirely correct in their criticisms. What Conroy has failed to do is provide a convincing counter-argument. In media interviews, when grilled, he often struggles with defining just exactly what it is he is proposing.

      One moment it's a URL blacklist to protect children from accidental porn; another moment it's to prevent access to abhorrent material which is currently RC content. Conroy has not listened to one iota of the overwhelming feedback from members of the public; and is utterly clueless as to how to move forward from here.

      I absolutely cannot tolerate such a waste of time and money on an unworkable solution driven forward by an individual who does not listen to reason for entirely political purposes.

      Brushing this off as "filtering is ok in theory" is a red herring: the currently publicised intentions of the government are not ok; and all efforts by Conroy to implement such should be fiercely resisted.

    6. Re:Some obvious observations by Johnno74 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      1) Stephen Conroy is spot on when he says the internet shouldn't be treated any different to any other forms of media. It isn't a magical beast, it's just another form of media (albeit more accessible and chaotic).

      No, I see one crucial difference in the way these two mediums are being treated that I haven't seen brought up anywhere else yet.

      In other forms of media the censoring applies to the creator of the media. What the filter proposes to do is censor the audience, not the creator.

      Now I'm of the opinion that total freedom of speech isn't necessarily a right I feel everyone needs. The greater good of our society trumps the rights of the individual when it comes to banning things such as child pornography, hate speech (at its most extreme), and shouting fire in a crowded cinema. I have no problem with these things being illegal, and the authorities coming down on those responsible for such things.

      But don't persecute the audience. (with the exception of child pornography, where there is a clear link between the creator and the consumer)

      Freedom to listen is a much more important right than freedom of speech

    7. Re:Some obvious observations by c0lo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Assuming your answer is, "I don't!!", then your position is essentially that there should be no censorship in any form of media.

      I don't and indeed I'm on the position that there should be no censorship on any form of media. That's because I don't know (more precisely, I don't admit as valid the existence) any kind of media that can cause harm by itself. Either:

      • the harm was done before (or with the purpose of) creating the media - and then the people that have done it need to be found/prosecuted (except of possibly acting as an evidence, the resulted media is of no relevance to the matter) or
      • no harm was done before the publishing and the (potential but not guaranteed) use of the media/information in a harmful way (as a consequential action) would need – only if/when occurring – be prosecuted

      For me, censorship is like the government/law enforcement bodies coming to me with the lame excuse that "I cannot do anything to protect you if you don't allow me to censor you - as well as anybody - the way I think and this without your knowledge, much less your approval". Of course, my non-acceptance of being nanny-ed by the gov would have the logical consequence of me replying to them "Did I ever asked you to protect me from information published on media? Let this be my responsibility, mate, I'm mature enough to handle it!"

      Please note that I'm referring to "information published in/on media" and not about personal information - I still consider the right to privacy as fundamental, even if neither the Australian constitution nor the Universal Declaration of Human Right mention something about its protection.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    8. Re:Some obvious observations by Toonol · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) Stephen Conroy is spot on when he says the internet shouldn't be treated any different to any other forms of media. It isn't a magical beast, it's just another form of media (albeit more accessible and chaotic). So there's nothing fundamentally wrong with filtering it. I mean hell, it's already illegal to *host* this sort of content in Australia.

      The point to walk away from this with is not that internet filtering is alright in principle, but rather that state filtering is wrong in principle in ALL forms of media.

    9. Re:Some obvious observations by Rennt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The internet is NOT media. It is a medium. Of course it should be treated differently to broadcast media.

      We are talking about censoring COMMUNICATION here, not fraking superbowl commercials.

      it's already illegal to *host* this sort of content in Australia.

      Precisely, so what does this achieve? Why allow the Government to grant itself that much power over public discourse when there are already tools in place to address these concerns.

    10. Re:Some obvious observations by SQL+Error · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1. No. I object to any government filtering the Internet in any way. I also object to the lie that the proposed filter only blocks illegal material.

      2. Yes, the blacklist is almost certain to be leaked. No, this is not any kind of excuse for infringing upon the human rights of all Australians.

      3. If the rule of law is ineffective, if everyone breaks the law, then everyone is a criminal, and everyone is under threat of random prosecution - or persecution - making the people the enemy of the state. The way you reach that kind of dystopia is through passing bad laws. This is a bad law. It's a very bad law.

      It's when people start objecting to it on a moralistic, human-rights basis that my brain starts turning to porridge.

      I think you have cause and effect reversed there.

      You object to the filter blocking information on euthanasia. You should object to it on that basis, because the government has no right to criminalise such discussions. The thing is, the government has no right to criminalise any discussion, only actions.

      Freedom of speech is the guarantor of all other freedoms, and that's why it must always be defended against petty tyrants like Kevin Rudd and Stephen Conroy.

    11. Re:Some obvious observations by the_womble · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Filters do treat the internet different from other media.

      Can the government order that distribution of a newspaper cease? Not in any democracy - they would need to go to court and prove that the newspaper breaks the law. A judge or jury would decide the case in public.

      Filters allow the government to order distribution of websites to cease without having to prove in court that they broke the law - and usually with no judicial oversight, and in secret.

      Britain slightly different as there it a self appointed bunch of do-gooders who decide what people are allowed to read.

    12. Re:Some obvious observations by lordlod · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You think the state censoring racial hatred or child pornography in various forms of media is WRONG? I assume you're joking.

      Yes and No I'm not joking.

      Personally I believe documents on racial hatred reinforce existing racial hatred, it's ludicrous to suggest that they create it from scratch. I also don't feel that suppressing the relevant documents is effective, the history of religous persecution is ample evidence of this. Restricting access to the materials does make it difficult for those who oppose them to read it and address their grievances or develop counter tactics.

      The argument for censorship in this matter is an argument for thought crime and I'm not sure it can be dismissed lightly. I don't give two hoots if someone wants to sit at home beating off to drawings of children. Having sex with a minor is a crime and anyone who does so should be charged. I haven't seen any solid evidence that the first leads to the second, there are reasonable arguments that porn provides an outlet which helps prevent the sexual act.

    13. Re:Some obvious observations by anarche · · Score: 2, Funny

      Now I'm of the opinion that total freedom of speech isn't necessarily a right I feel everyone needs.

      Then please please PLEASE stay home playing Yahtzee on election days from now on. Trust me, it's way more fun than having your voice heard. Everyone's doin it.

      And don't forget to pay your fine! :)

      --
      Wait! Whats a sig?
    14. Re:Some obvious observations by AReilly · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > So there's nothing fundamentally wrong with filtering it.

      Totally wrong: there is *no* other "media" that is actively filtered, based either on content or source. That is what is different about this proposal. All other media comply with the legislation (mostly) because they'll get into trouble with the law if they don't. That is *good enough*.

      > I mean hell, it's already illegal to *host* this sort of content in Australia.

      Exactly. It's illegal essentially everywhere. Let the police get on with their job. Encourage them. Fund them with the proceeds of this policy, if you like. The police don't care what protocols you're using to break the law, and are therefore future-proof and much harder to circumvent.

      --
      -- Andrew
    15. Re:Some obvious observations by kaptink · · Score: 2, Informative

      > I mean, I agree with filtering stuff on graffiti

      WTF?? Why? Two of my favourite sites is streetsy.com and woostercollective.com, both street art sites featuring *shock* graffiti. Why on earth would anyone want to manditorily ban Australia from some of the best new art and artists of our time? Please explain

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who cannot, sue.
    16. Re:Some obvious observations by Dracophile · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1) Stephen Conroy is spot on when he says the internet shouldn't be treated any different to any other forms of media. It isn't a magical beast, it's just another form of media (albeit more accessible and chaotic).

      So there's nothing fundamentally wrong with filtering it. I mean hell, it's already illegal to *host* this sort of content in Australia.

      There are several things wrong with this comment. Most of them have already been pointed out, so I'll just add this. There are two other communications media that the internet is similar to: mail and telephone. Yet we don't see these media censored the same way that Conroy is proposing to censor the internet.

      2) It might be abused, or it filter stuff you disagree with.

      I disagree with filtering material on euthanasia. However this isn't an objection against the filter itself (I mean, I agree with filtering stuff on graffiti or terrorist), but simply against the choice of application.

      The filter already is abusive. The distinction between the filter and its application isn't relevant to this argument. Stuff is filtered or it is not.

      3) The reason it will fail is exactly the reason it will work.

      It will fail miserably because anyone can circumnavigate it.

      But this is exactly what makes it hard to abuse. With oddly-moralized hackers up in arms, you can bet they'll seize on any abuses of the filter and plaster them embarresingly over the internet. So the government has a strong incentive to stick within their declared uses of the filter.

      Apparently the government has no such incentive at all. They're delaying this, after all. Whether they admit it or not, they actually have a strong incentive to simply drop this idea. They will certainly lose votes over this. The question is how many, and it occurs to me that this may well be one of the main reasons for putting this off.

      So the worst objection to the filter is simply that it could mostly be a waste of time... that said, it will evolve and change and may prove useful.

      It's hard to take this seriously; it's as if you haven't read or understood the real objections:

      1. Instead of actually filtering the intended material, it will drive it underground where it is harder to monitor. As things stand now, access to the material can be monitored. Putting the filter in place makes people have to get at it in ways that can't be monitored easily, if at all.
      2. Since the material intended to be filtered can be accessed anyway, people who don't understand the technology won't understand that the filter isn't working and will think that the material is inaccessible. It's the false sense of security that filter proponents would not want parents to have, for example.
      3. The government has lied repeatedly about this proposal. What makes you think they will not lie about it again?
      4. What makes you think the next government, or the one after it, won't lie about it or misuse it?
      5. What if the government decides to make it work by instructing ISPs to drop any packets they can't read, effectively making them MITMs? That completely breaks internet commerce, which is obviously unacceptable. So this would be mitigated how? Possibly by a government-mandated whitelist of IPs with whom anyone can communicate with encrypted data. Which still roots internet commerce anyway.

      It's not just a waste of time and money. It's a breach of faith on several fronts.

      --
      Athy, athier, athiest.
    17. Re:Some obvious observations by sam0737 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But this is exactly what makes it hard to abuse. With oddly-moralized hackers up in arms, you can bet they'll seize on any abuses of the filter and plaster them embarresingly over the internet. So the government has a strong incentive to stick within their declared uses of the filter.

      So the worst objection to the filter is simply that it could mostly be a waste of time... that said, it will evolve and change and may prove useful.

      You don't want to wait that happen. Eventually the government will become having a face so thick that they just outright lying to the citizens. China has already set the example, and I surely you don't follow the shit.

      http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hans/%E8%BA%B2%E8%B2%93%E8%B2%93_(%E7%B6%B2%E8%B7%AF%E7%94%A8%E8%AA%9E)
      In 2009, a 24yo Man died while being detained. In the press release, official stated that the suspect died from head trauma by hitting the wall when playing hide-and-seek.

      http://news.mylegist.com/1604/2010-03-01/21338.html
      Two months ago, another man died while being detained. This time the reason given were he drank too much water - despite that there was a hole in the head, nipple and gential showed signs of abuse.

      I am picking the two most obvious and well-known cases, there are many more unbelievable cases like that happening frequently. Although for both cases, the department in a higher hierarchy later came up and clarify the truth. But nevertheless, IMHO they crossed the line. Yet the Chinese couldn't really do anything besides chatting about it on the net. There is no way to replace the official, the government or the party without bleeding.

      Going back to Australia and the other countries, you don't want to let your country to step out the first step - please defense your rights.
      The "think of the children" is pointless, the child molester will find their way to get the actionable material no matter what, you think a filter or two will stop them? They are driven by the sexual desire and nothing can stop that - human is just another animal. Nor the filter could cure them either. Just like lock can only keep honest people honest - Internet filter in the national sense could only make your Internet experience more trouble, not those child molesters.

      Once the government wins this, they will take a even more aggressive step and when you finally find out it's outright unacceptable - it will be too late - and welcome to join the Chinese.

      Exercise your right while you still have it, and please protect it, treasure it.

      Disclaimer: I'm a Hongkonger, but living in Shanghai.

  7. Elections are coming, Labor wants votes. by mjwx · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Elections in Australia happen every three years, no four. That means they will be this year.

    Rudd knows just how unpopular the filter is, even if it only loses him 10% of the votes it's enough to scare him as he got in by a gnats wing in 2007.

    The question is will Rudd shelve the plan or just carry on regardless after the next election. Personally I don't want to find out but I cant vote for that hyper religious nut-case, Tony Abbott as he'll probably turn around and do something worse so personally my vote is going either to the Greens or an independent against the filter.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    1. Re:Elections are coming, Labor wants votes. by Onetus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      By hyper religious, I assume you mean that earlier on his life he entered Seminary, intending to be a priest but changed his mind. Or did you mean to refer to the fact he has strong catholic based beliefs. This is important because the term hyper-religious has massively different connotations to our American colleagues, where it could/would imply that he was a member of the literal truth of the bible pentacostal brigade. At least he's been honest enough to say outright was his beliefs are, and cope with the spin/misunderstaning - http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/27/2802389.htm

      But if you really, really care - have a look at your local candidates and think who will do more for your area. We elect our representives, not our prime-minister. You can go and approach the candidates and ask them - "My friends and I want to know where you stand on Internet Filtering because it's major factor in choosing who we'll vote for" or "Will you oppose/support the internet filtering even against the rest of your party's position?"

      Mate - If you don't tell them that this is an issue, then all they have to go off is the Media - and they really treat Internet comments with sooo much respect.

    2. Re:Elections are coming, Labor wants votes. by dbIII · · Score: 2, Informative

      By hyper religious, I assume you mean that earlier on his life he entered Seminary, intending to be a priest but changed his mind.

      He was going to be a priest but he screwed up, and down, and sideways, and anything nearby in a skirt that didn't move fast enough.
      I'd call him a "Godless Christian" in that he's doing it for appearances but in his own words has broken every commandment but one. His beliefs are whatever it takes to get the job done and change daily.

  8. no fair australia by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    the usa has long been a world leader in hypocritical simplistic moralizing "christians"

    don't be nosing in on our turf and our monopoly now

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  9. Another piece of legislation delayed? by hopejr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Though I'm far from disappointed, this is the 3rd one this week! Last week it was the Emissions Trading Scheme nonsense, then the Health Care stuff, and now this. Seriously, what's up with the Rudd government?? It's turning out to be a "Dudd" government! Bring on an early double dissolution election and get this idiots out (not that the alternative is much better . . . ).
    <rant>
    Oh, and as to the Australian Christian Lobby and all those other extreme conservative political groups - don't mix religion with government! I'm Christian, but I don't think that should have anything to do with running a country. One of these days we'll end up like certain European countries and be forced to go to church every week!
    </rant>

    1. Re:Another piece of legislation delayed? by hopejr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sorry, I was going on slightly old and incorrect news. Basically, it was Croatia, having shopping banned on Sundays because of church pressure. Thankfully, this pre-historic, religious-related law was deemed unconstitutional 6 months later (according to Wikipedia), and repealed. The information I had, which seemed to be from news sites, though I can't find it now, stated that shops were shut because the Catholic church wanted people to go to mass, or something like that.

  10. The sad thing is... by GrahamCox · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Last week I was discussing the filter with a friend who is an intelligent and sensible, non-religious person. Unfortunately he had swallowed the whole "think of the children" argument and thought the filter was a good idea. When I put the standard negative arguments to him, he agreed that it wasn't as simple as he'd thought. Problem is, he's probably representative of a large majority of ordinary people with voting rights in Australia. It's imperative that the debate about the filter is kept up and every Australian citizen is brought up to speed, otherwise I fear that we'll end up having it simply because nobody really bothered to give it much thought.

    1. Re:The sad thing is... by bane2571 · · Score: 3, Informative

      What is worse, I asked about 5 friends that frequently use the net and are quite intelligent what thye thought of us having a filter and they had no idea one was coming.

    2. Re:The sad thing is... by twostix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why on earth is this being framed as the creation of religious people?

      The Labor party are the secular, technocratic left wing party in Australia, the Liberals are the "religious conservatives". Yet it is Labor, not the Liberals (who had power for twelve years and never spoke about it) that are trying to ram this down the country's throat.

      And to prove it the leaked blacklist had *anti* abortion websites banned. Hardly something that would make the religious people happy!

      It's not religion that's the problem here, it's authoritarianism, which the current Labor party unfortunately (since I voted for them) have in spades.

    3. Re:The sad thing is... by zuperduperman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > I think it is completely stupid, since anyone can arbitrarily get around it.

      Well, this is one of the great fears about it. Since people will be able to trivially bypass it, people most certainly will. Not only will they do it, they will make software and publish articles about how to do it. And then out of severe embarrassment, the government will react with new laws that make it illegal to own, sell, or distribute material about how to bypass the filter. Now suddenly whole classes of software and speech will be regulated. It's a downward spiral into total lockdown control of the internet.

    4. Re:The sad thing is... by ByteSlicer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      since anyone can arbitrarily get around it

      I expect the next step will be passing a law that makes circumvention of the filter illegal. And then p2p will be blocked country wide. Because this has nothing to do with protecting children, but everything with protecting profits for the media consortiums.

  11. voting green by z3d4r · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A few of the Aussies here have mentioned their disappointment with Rudd and greater dislike of the opposition, and have expressed their intention to vote dreen or independant.

    If you wish to keep legislation such as this from passing its important to understand how the Australian government works.
    firstly there is the Upper House: parliament. Here you find the Prime minister, Ministers and back benchers. Voting for anyone other than either of the two major parties here is basicly a wasted vote. In most cases the winning party will always have enough seats here to propose anything they like and see it pass. I suggest voting for the major party you find least objectionable.

    The Lower House: The Senate, is where the postions of minor parties/independents are most powerfull. It is here that legislation such as the internet filter stand the best chance of being stopped. Many years ago the Australian Democrats held a significant proportion of seats here. Never aiming for the upper house, they focused on the senate with the tag line of 'keeping the bastards honest'. Today that power is held by the Greens and the Family First party, each equaly scary depending upon your own personal views (damn hippies vs Christian nutjobs). If you are disillusioned with Labor, and intend to vote Green, doing so in the senate will have the greatest impact.

    --
    You shall know him by his Sig
    1. Re:voting green by NoMaster · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Upper House: parliament ... The Lower House: The Senate ..."

      Ummm ... you do know you got that exactly wrong, don't you?

      The Upper House is the Senate.
      The Lower House is the House of Representatives.
      Together, they make the Parliament of Australia.

      And voting anything other than Labor / Coalition in the House of Reps is far from a wasted vote. It's been a while, but we have had minority governments that've had to cuddle up to minor parties in the HoR in the past. It's not quite like the crazy 'major parties take all' system in the US. Not yet, anyway...

      --
      What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
  12. Re:Perspective by dakameleon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    TFA is published by a Murdoch newspaper, so you can imagine where the bias is.

    --
    Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
  13. Most Australians want a filter by solanum · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm against internet filtering as much as most Slashdotters, but the evidence is that most Australians want a filter. Have a look here: http://hungrybeast.abc.net.au/stories/internet-filter-survey-results This was a survey carried out by a program aimed at young hip tech-savy viewers and yet their survey showed that 80% of responders agree that filtering is a good idea. The filter would be democracy in action, it is we who are the vocal minority in opposing it not the Australian Christian Lobby in supporting it.

    --
    Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
  14. Re:Perspective by AReilly · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Australian is the local NEWS Corp. paper. Rupert essentially on record as saying that the internet is a bad idea...

    --
    -- Andrew
  15. One very important thought by AC-x · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It would be wise to remember that the same people who would stop you from viewing an adult film may be back next year to complain about a book, or even a TV program. If you can be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you can be told what to say or think. Defend your constitutionally protected rights. No one else will do it for you. Thank you.

  16. But hey, we'll still have the NBN! by David+Gerard · · Score: 3, Funny

    Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has announced that the Australian government will build a new $43 billion national broadband network, connecting 90% of homes to 100-megabit fibre internet. "We believe that fast broadband is absolutely essential for our nation's future", he said.

    "Telstra has raised issues with the amount of bandwidth usage this will produce, given we're still hooked to America by tin cans and string, but our Great Firewall of Australia Internet filtering project should keep usage down to reasonable levels at near-dialup speeds. We promise you won't go over your download cap."

    The Great Firewall will reliably block all illegal material, child pornography, terrorism and unAustralian thoughts.

    "Not only are the contents of the list illegal," said Senator Stephen Conroy, " but revealing the list is also illegal, and so is linking to someone linking to someone claiming to reveal the list. So we're blocking Google Search. Having to use Anzwers should keep usage right down."

    Calling it, the "single largest infrastructure decision in Australia's history," Mr Rudd said the project would employ up to 37,000 people a year monitoring citizens' net access, reading their email and correcting spelling errors in their football forum posts.

    A consultative process will determine the regulatory framework for the network. "We're considering getting Senator Fielding to do it personally," said Senator Conroy, "since he's the dickhead who demanded the censorship in return for his votes. Hopefully it'll melt his brain. Bloody balance of power. At least Xenophon's bloody sane."

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk